[01:25] <theCore> LaserJock: ping
[01:28] <LaserJock> theCore: hi
[01:28] <theCore> LaserJock: i build my first package !
[01:28] <LaserJock> theCore: nice
[01:29] <theCore> LaserJock: it was quite easy dh_make
[01:29] <theCore> LaserJock: how i know how to make the guide
[01:31] <theCore> LaserJock: first we will need to introduce the reader howto build packages from source
[01:31] <theCore> LaserJock: just a quick review
[01:32] <theCore> LaserJock: after we put a basic tutorial, that walkthrough the reader
[01:32] <LaserJock> theCore: I've been thinking. Maybe we should start from scratch.
[01:32] <theCore> LaserJock: maybe ... 
[01:33] <theCore> LaserJock: but I think we need catch the reader with something concret
[01:33] <LaserJock> theCore: I'm going to throw a quick outline together of what I'm thinking and put it on a wiki page
[01:33] <theCore> LaserJock: ok
[01:41] <LaserJock> theCore: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
[01:45] <theCore> LaserJock: "Scope of guide" is quite the same of "Target Audience", isn't it ?
[01:46] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah pretty much
[01:47] <LaserJock> theCore: but its' a pretty rough outline ;-)
[01:47] <theCore> LaserJock: i know ;)
[01:54] <theCore> LaserJock: does Ubuntu has a list of orphaned packages ?
[01:55] <LaserJock> theCore: I don't really think there is any such thing in Ubuntu. At least for Universe packages the team as a whole is the maintainer
[02:27] <theCore> LaserJock: i made somes changes
[02:28] <LaserJock> ok, I will be away for a bit. I'll be back a little later though.
[02:28] <theCore> me too, cya later
[02:32] <LaserJock> theCore: well, hmmm. I think we need to work through these. I don't want to seem critical but I was trying to get away from the DNMG but the changes you made kinda seem like it turns it into that.
[03:36] <theCore> LaserJock: im back
[03:57] <LaserJock> theCore: now II'm back :-)
[03:57] <theCore> nice
[04:00] <theCore> LaserJock, i think we try to make the Packaging guide both a introduction and a refrence guide
[04:01] <theCore> *reference
[04:03] <theCore> LaserJock, in what way you want to get away from DNMG ?
[04:07] <LaserJock> theCore: well, I would like to start getting into examples earlier
[04:07] <theCore> LaserJock, i think so too
[04:08] <theCore> LaserJock, but before getting to the examples, the reader must configure his system propely
[04:10] <LaserJock> theCore: my thought would be that we would only require build-essentials and devscripts to start with. Then as the examples progress will start each example with the programs needed. 
[04:11] <theCore> LaserJock, hmm, then we need to put the require programs as an annexes
[04:11] <theCore> LaserJock, all right then
[04:12] <LaserJock> theCore: no just say at the beginning of each section, "Required programs : ..."
[04:12] <theCore> LaserJock, i see ... 
[04:12] <theCore> LaserJock, good lets make like that
[04:13] <LaserJock> that way the reader doesn't get overwhelmed in figuring out the packages they need to install and what they do before we have even started an example
[04:14] <theCore> LaserJock, good idea
[04:15] <theCore> LaserJock, edit the wiki then
[04:15] <LaserJock> theCore: the other thing is I would like to put most of the stuff you have in "Files under /debian" into the Packaging scenarios. I invision that most of the material will be in that section
[04:16] <theCore> LaserJock, i wanted this section as a reference of all the options of those file
[04:18] <theCore> LaserJock, maybe, we should divide the guide in 2 parts: a tutorial and a reference part
[04:19] <LaserJock> theCore: I was thinking more basic part and advanced part but yeah something like that
[04:20] <theCore> LaserJock, we could divide the tutorial in 2 parts too: basic and adv. ...
[04:20] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, let me edit the wiki a bit and we can go through it again. Thanks for doing this with me. It really helps to have somebody to talk things over with.
[04:20] <theCore> LaserJock, no prob.
[04:24] <theCore> LaserJock, however, there is something with which I stand firmly for:  the user must get no errors
[04:25] <LaserJock> theCore: of course ;-)
[04:26] <theCore> LaserJock, so we need to adapt properly the commands 
[04:26] <LaserJock> theCore: yes and I hope to get lots of proofreading from the MOTU and the core devs.
[04:26] <theCore> LaserJock, me too
[04:28] <theCore> LaserJock, today when i was reading DNMG, I got a gnupg error with dh_make and it's only at the end they shown how to configure it so it works 
[04:31] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah, stuff like that would be good to avoid, although it is an easy mistake to make sometimes
[04:32] <theCore> LaserJock, we need to get to the user a real package to make
[04:33] <theCore> LaserJock, like that we can tweak the guide so the reader go get an obscur error 
[04:34] <theCore> LaserJock, but we will need a set of good packages, so we can show all the typical error and problem to get over with
[04:36] <theCore> LaserJock, so how is it going with the wiki?
[04:37] <LaserJock> theCore: sorry, still working on it. I was trying to help my wife decorate a Christmas tree for a minute.
[04:38] <theCore> LaserJock, lol
[04:38] <LaserJock> theCore: yes, minghua suggested the hello packages. That is what they are designed for
[04:38] <theCore> LaserJock, ok lets go with the hello pkg
[04:40] <theCore> LaserJock, maybe it would be cooler for the reader using a real package
[04:41] <theCore> LaserJock, so at the end he didn't read the guide for nothing
[04:58] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, check it out
[04:58] <LaserJock> theCore: it still needs some work
[04:58] <theCore> LaserJock, okay
[05:00] <theCore> LaserJock, not bad ...
[05:02] <LaserJock> theCore: the thing is that most of the material should be done in the packaging scenarios because that is where the examples will mainly be
[05:03] <theCore> LaserJock, true
[05:03] <LaserJock> theCore: but at this point it is hard to show that on an outline
[05:03] <theCore> LaserJock, why did you put  Binary & Source packages before the walkthrough ?
[05:04] <LaserJock> theCore: because the reader should understand the difference between them I think before they really start getting into it, then you say " This is how you create the source packages"
[05:05] <LaserJock> if you say that before they know the difference I think there might be confusion
[05:06] <LaserJock> in fact maybe "Tools needed for development" should be after the overview
[05:06] <theCore> LaserJock, okay, can you explain to me what do you consider a source pkg ( are talking about the .tar.{gz,bz2} package ? )
[05:07] <theCore> LaserJock, nah , i don't think so
[05:07] <LaserJock> theCore: the source pkg is the .orig.tar.gz, .dsc, and an optional .diff.gz file
[05:07] <theCore> LaserJock, okay 
[05:08] <LaserJock> theCore: that is what the packager deals with almost exclusively, not the binary packages
[05:10] <theCore> LaserJock, we should add a quick tutorial on how building a package just with the source
[05:10] <LaserJock> theCore: what do you mean exactly?
[05:10] <theCore> LaserJock, building form a tarball
[05:10] <theCore> from*
[05:11] <LaserJock> theCore: I think that should be covered in the "Packages from scratch" scenario
[05:11] <theCore> LaserJock, or maybe we should put that into the prerequisites
[05:11] <theCore> ah okay, i see
[05:12] <LaserJock> theCore: I think the point should be to get the reader to the scenarios as quickly as possible
[05:12] <theCore> true
[05:13] <LaserJock> theCore: the getting started section should just get everybody on the same page
[05:13] <theCore> LaserJock, i just figured out what you wanna do
[05:14] <theCore> LaserJock, i think so, too
[05:14] <theCore> LaserJock, the scenario idea is nice
[05:15] <LaserJock> theCore: I think that is the distinction I'm trying to make with the DNMG 
[05:15] <theCore> LaserJock, and i think it's great way to do it
[05:16] <LaserJock> theCore: well, I hope it will work
[05:17] <theCore> LaserJock, i think we will need to rebuild the whole DocBook XML file, because the current one is quite crapy
[05:17] <LaserJock> theCore: how so? you mean content or the actual XML?
[05:18] <theCore> LaserJock, both
[05:18] <LaserJock> theCore: I agree. Although I did try to get the first couple of sections tidied up a bit
[05:18] <theCore> LaserJock, i think we will need to rebuild the whole DocBook XML file, because the current one is quite crapy
[05:19] <theCore> oups
[05:19] <theCore> wrong key ... :(
[05:20] <theCore> LaserJock, for now, it's just a DocBook convertion of DNMG
[05:20] <LaserJock> theCore: with some wiki thrown in
[05:20] <theCore> and a diagram
[05:21] <LaserJock> yep, I mean the original author did quite a bit of work, but I think we need to go with this other approach
[05:22] <theCore> i agree
[05:25] <theCore> LaserJock, do we start ?
[05:26] <LaserJock> theCore: yes. I think the first step would be to flesh out that outline a little bit more and get the Getting Started section done. That shouldn't take too long.
[05:28] <theCore> LaserJock, i think we should use the wiki as a development area, and then when we finish a section we could do the DocBook conversion
[05:30] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah, at least until I get commit access to the repo ;-)
[05:30] <theCore> LaserJock, lol
[05:31] <LaserJock> Hopefully that will be right after Tuesday's CC meeting
[05:33] <theCore> you are lucky, i would like to get a access too ... but anyway ...
[05:33] <LaserJock> keep on working and you will.
[05:33] <theCore> LaserJock, hmm dh-make as an advance tool ?
[05:33] <theCore> LaserJock, i'm sure about that
[05:35] <LaserJock> theCore: well we will have to see. I just stuck them there for now until we know what we will put in the scenarios
[05:36] <theCore> http://www.us.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ap-pkg-eg.en.html <<<< that was, for me, the most useful part of the DNMG
[05:38] <LaserJock> theCore: right, those kinds of things are what we should be focused on. I was really dissapointed when I read through all the material and then all the good stuff was at the end
[05:38] <theCore> LaserJock, lol, me too
[05:39] <theCore> LaserJock, but me i started reading the guide from the end ;)
[05:41] <theCore> LaserJock, what are the packages we use for the examples ?
[05:42] <theCore> LaserJock, i think we need some concrete examples with real packages
[05:43] <LaserJock> hello, hello-dbs, and hello-debhelper are already in Ubuntu
[05:43] <LaserJock> we may need to add others if we need to do more
[05:45] <theCore> hello packages are not what i call concrete example ... but they will do the jobs ...
[05:45] <theCore> are they in tar.gz format ?
[05:46] <LaserJock> theCore: why not? they were designed for showing how to package
[05:46] <LaserJock> theCore: they are just like any other package
[05:47] <theCore> LaserJock, i dunno, i wouldn't feel proud building an hello package, i would, more likely, feel dumb
[05:47] <theCore> but that my point of view
[05:47] <Madpilot> Isn't "Hello World" the standard first step in programming? why shouldn't it be the first step in package-building? ;)
[05:48] <LaserJock> theCore: take a look at hello
[05:48] <theCore> Madpilot, maybe ... :-/
[05:49] <LaserJock> the worst thing we can do is pick a package that either will change enough that the example will need to get updated often or it won't work anymore, or something that will need a bunch of dependecies
[05:49] <LaserJock> the other thing is that a lot of packages aren't exactly the best examples of packaging
[05:51] <theCore> LaserJock, okay ... i'm conviced ... but i still have some doubts
[05:52] <LaserJock> theCore: well, I admit that the outcome isn't terribly exciting but I think it is better than having readers chase down dependencies
[05:54] <theCore> LaserJock, i really the LinuxFromScratch book and they show tough example
[05:54] <LaserJock> I mean it's got postinst and prerm scripts, autotools
[05:55] <theCore> LaserJock, for me, LFS is the best book out on the web to learn linux
[05:56] <theCore> LaserJock, the whole book is one big example
[05:58] <theCore> LaserJock, so maybe we should use their way ...
[05:58] <theCore> ... mixed with your
[05:59] <LaserJock> theCore: hmm, how would it be different?
[06:00] <theCore> theCore, it's wouldn't have dumb examples
[06:01] <theCore> LaserJock, *
[06:01] <LaserJock> theCore: really though, how dumb is it? Packagers often don't care about what they are packaging they just need to do it
[06:02] <theCore> LaserJock, yea .. maybe 
[06:03] <LaserJock> theCore: well, it might be the easiest starting point, unless you have something better
[06:04] <theCore> LaserJock, ok, lets do it like this then
[06:05] <theCore> LaserJock, now, we really need to concentrate on the Packaging Scenarios, i think it's really a good idea
[06:06] <theCore> LaserJock, those will be existing for the readers
[06:07] <theCore> LaserJock, and enriching too
[06:07] <LaserJock> I hope so
[06:29] <theCore> LaserJock, so what are you doing right now ?
[06:30] <LaserJock> theCore: looking at your changes ;-)
[06:32] <theCore> LaserJock, so?
[06:36] <LaserJock> theCore: couple of changes, check it now
[06:37] <theCore> LaserJock, cdbs ?
[06:37] <LaserJock> yep
[06:37] <theCore> LaserJock, what is it exactly ?
[06:39] <LaserJock> http://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml
[06:45] <theCore> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=51003 <<< could be useful
[06:47] <LaserJock> yes, I've seen that before
[07:00] <theCore> http://women.alioth.debian.org/wiki/index.php/English/BuildingWithoutHelper <<< could be useful too
[07:07] <LaserJock> yes
[07:08] <theCore> I gotta go sleep, cya later
[02:31] <jsgotangco> hey guys
[02:32] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi
[02:32] <jsgotangco> hey Kamping_Kaiser what's up?
[02:32] <Kamping_Kaiser> about to try and work out why pam fails for *one* username on a server :(
[02:32] <Kamping_Kaiser> it's going to be impossible
[02:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> same user, added removed 3 times, still on joy. 
[02:46] <jjesse> is there a sync time for PAM?
[02:46] <jjesse> i know in Active Directory there is a delay when you remove a username and it syncs across the domain controllers
[02:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> i thought it was imidate.
[02:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> *shrug*. 
[02:47] <jjesse> Kamping_Kaiser: i don't know PAM at all just a thought
[02:47] <Kamping_Kaiser> worth looking at if i cant get it
[02:47] <Kamping_Kaiser> so thaniks :)
[04:58] <theCore> hello there
[05:10] <jjesse> hello theCore 
[05:11] <theCore> jjesse: do you work on some doc ?
[05:11] <jjesse> yes i do, mostly kubuntu docs :)
[05:11] <theCore> ah, nice
[05:12] <theCore> on my side, i work on the PackagingGuide
[05:13] <jjesse> oh how is that going?
[07:36] <LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
[08:40] <mdke_> LaserJock, pong
[08:42] <LaserJock> mdke_: I had a long discussion last night with theCore about the packaging guide
[08:42] <mdke_> cool
[08:42] <jjesse> theCore was on here earlier today
[08:43] <LaserJock> we kinda were thinking that maybe it would be best to start from scratch on the Packaging Guide
[08:43] <mdke_> ok
[08:44] <LaserJock> it would help to eleviate the license issues but we also wanted to do it in a different way that will, I think, be much easier on the reader
[08:44] <mdke_> did you contact Diziet about the developer documentation spec?
[08:44] <mdke_> dude, seriously don't worry about the licence issues. but if you want to rework it, that's fine
[08:45] <LaserJock> mdke_: yes, I talked to Diziet a while back and he thought that there wasn't any problem for us to do the Packaging Guide. He thought that there wouldn't be much overlap
[08:45] <mdke_> oh right
[08:46] <LaserJock> mdke_: well the license thing wasn't a big deal. I just think that right now it is too similar to the Debian New Maintainer Guide and theCore and I saw that there might be a better way to do it
[08:46] <mdke_> ok
[08:47] <mdke_> LaserJock, will you continue working in our repo?
[08:47] <LaserJock> we made an outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
[08:48] <LaserJock> mdke_: oh, for sure. I am commited to getting a Packaging Guide in the doc-team repo by the time Dapper is released
[08:48] <mdke_> awesome
[08:49] <LaserJock> tomorrow hopefully I will become a Ubuntu member so then it will be a little easier
[08:49] <jjesse> LaserJock: did i say i would speak up for you? i don't remember if i did or not
[08:49] <LaserJock> jjesse: you did, but if you can't make it or something that's ok
[08:50] <mdke_> i'll leave a message with someone
[08:50] <jjesse> nope still planing on being there
[08:51] <LaserJock> well, hopefully it won't be to bad. I have a couple of MOTUs to speak for me also.
[08:51] <mdke_> you'll be fine
[08:52] <LaserJock> mdke_: anyway, I just wanted talk to you about the Packaging Guide and what thCore and I were thinking
[08:53] <mdke_> LaserJock, i don't know squat about packaging, but I'll certainly support anything you want to do with the guide
[08:54] <LaserJock> mdke_: thanks