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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 08 Dec 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
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Seveasarzajac, so you can make it after all :)01:47
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zakamehi bhuvan :)02:49
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Seveasha 6 minutes to zero-hour02:54
SeveasBack home just in time02:54
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=== mhz would like a little chat with hno73 after meeting, possible?
hno73mhz: sure02:56
jjessei'll be back for probablly the end of the meeting, gotta switch work locations02:56
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mhzhno73: thx02:56
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zygawhen is the CC meeting?02:57
zygain 6 minutes?02:57
Seveas3 minutes02:57
naliothin about 4 minutes02:57
zyganot at 22:00?02:57
zygak, glad I've joined earlier ;] 02:57
zakameer 2 minutes from now02:57
Kyralwhew in the nick of time02:58
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Seveaszyga, make sure your wikipage is up to date02:58
Seveasi've seen you busy in #ubuntu-? but that work is not listed02:58
zygaSeveas: I made minor updates02:58
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zygaSeveas: just below the 'Update:' 02:58
SeveasMagicFab, have you been working with mako on your wikipage?02:59
MagicFabSeveas: no, alone ;) asked mako for feedback but didn't get any02:59
MagicFab(by email)02:59
Kamionmako: you didn't vote on mhz at the last meeting; are you ready to do so?02:59
Kamion(thus contrary to what the agenda claims, mhz wasn't approved03:00
ograis he around ? 03:00
Seveas*DING* 14:00 UTC03:00
ograany sabdfl in sight ? 03:00
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Kamionelmo: around?03:00
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Seveasmako, LaserJock, raphink, Kyral, kjcole *ping*03:01
raphinkhello everybody :)03:01
KyralI'm here03:01
kikohey there03:02
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
raphinkSeveas: hehe i'm here :)03:02
Seveasmhz, smurf 03:02
Seveas*ping* too03:02
=== smurf is here ;-)
=== mhz is here
SeveasWe'll have to wait for the CC members to show up03:02
mhzin the meantime, Greeting Ubunteros :)03:03
MarioMeyer_hi :P03:03
Madpilotmorning, everyone03:03
=== Kamion reaches for the list of phone number
robotgeekmorning...coffee time03:03
StevenKSpeaking of morning, it's neatly 1am here. :-/03:04
SeveasKamion, aren't they on speed dial yet? :)03:04
mhzStevenK: thx for being here, then03:04
ograKamion, sabdfl just mailed me, he seems awake and in reach of a PC03:04
Madpilot0600 here :(03:04
kjcoleNo rest for the wicked.03:04
=== Kyral reaches for caffine
LaserJockMadpilot: me too03:04
ograbut i bet he forgot about the early time today03:04
MagicFabI invited Corey Burger and Daniel RObitaille but it's 6AM for them :(03:04
mhzMadpilot: very early, thx03:04
Kamionelmo's coming03:04
StevenKmhz: I went to bed early, and my wife woke me at 000003:05
mhzMagicFab: i'm glad you're here03:05
kjcoleNew Ubunutu project: Tivo for #ubuntu-meetings.  (Better than log files.) ;-)03:05
Seveasit's conveniently 15:00 here :)03:05
mhzStevenK: hehehe, that happens all the time if you have kids too03:05
=== jsgotangco is babysitting at the moment
elmook, here03:05
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Seveashi elmo 03:05
\shmorning gentlemen03:06
Kamionelmo: do you know where Mark is at the moment?03:06
raphinkhi \sh03:06
mhzmorning \sh 03:06
elmosomewhere in the US03:06
elmohe probably won't be up for a couple of hours03:06
zakamehi mhz :D03:06
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mhzzakame: helloz03:07
kjcoleHullo, all.03:07
elmounless we snagged mako, quorum might be hard03:07
Kamionapparently he just sent e-mail, I'll try his mobile03:07
mhzkjcole: is your page updated03:07
zakameelmo: thanks for adding me to the keyring today :-)03:07
zakameevening \sh :)03:07
Kamionsabdfl is being summoned03:07
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Seveashi jbailey 03:08
kjcolemhz: Not recently...  03:08
mhzkjcole: well, it looked good to me :)03:08
jbaileySeveas: hi03:08
jsgotangcosummoning powers03:09
=== mhz plays Magic, the Gathering, and plays 9 lands to summon sabdfl
zakamemhz: wow03:10
dholbachmhz: dunno, if 9 are enough, you might have to tap all your artifacts too03:11
Kyraldangit dholbach beat me to it :D03:11
=== StevenK ponders something to eat.
=== Seveas casts a fireball and burns all Magic cards
=== zakame hasn't played Magic for a looong time :(
Kamions/summoned/hunted/ apparently03:11
mhzSeveas: boooh, you killed out entertainment03:11
=== Madpilot ponders caffeine
jsgotangcogood luck on summoning sabdfl in th snow03:11
=== dholbach neither... like 7-8 years
=== Kyral plays a Moment's Peace and blocks the fireball
Kamioncan we sort out meeting times in the meantime maybe?03:11
Seveasmhz, bofh.ntk.net03:11
Seveashours of entertainment03:12
Kamionalthough we don't have mako which makes that awkward03:12
kjcolejsgotangco: Did he get caught in it?03:12
Seveashttp://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html <-- that one i mean03:12
makoi'm here03:12
mhzSeveas: jsgotangco could tell us about mobile entretainment for our Sharp Zaurus, maybe?03:12
Seveasgreetings, mako03:12
Kamionmako: aha, we can start then03:13
Seveaswe could start now if sabdfl is evasive, let's do the naming round03:13
=== mhz *sighs*
=== Seveas is Dennis Kaarsemaker
makosorry i'm a bit late.. i need like 1 minute to get organized03:13
zakamehello mako :)03:13
=== ogra is OliverGrawert
kjcoleHi, mako.  (And thanks -- I think -- for the speedy order on the CD's.  Or thank whoever's responsible.)03:13
=== MarioMeyer_ is Mario Meyer
=== dholbach is Daniel Holbach
=== \sh is Stephan Hermann
=== nalioth is Marek Spruell
=== Kamion is Colin Watson
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
=== StevenK is Steve Kowalik
=== Kyral is Chris Peterman
=== jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
=== mhz is MauricioHernandez
=== mako is benjamin mako hill
=== Madpilot is Brian Burger
=== LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
=== kiko is ChristianReis
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=== zakame is Zak Elep
=== bhuvan is Bhuvaneswaran
=== azeem is Michael Banck
=== raphink is Raphal Pinson
=== robotgeek is VenkatRaghavan
Seveasarzajac, there?03:14
=== hno73 is Henrik Omma
Seveasubuntugeek, there?03:14
=== MagicFab is Fabian Rodriguez
Kamionsabdfl's on his way03:14
zyga(everyone needs to say their name?)03:15
Kamionthe ubuntite/ubuntero thing is first on the agenda03:15
=== smurf is Matthias Urlichs
Kamionso to alleviate confusion from those bug reports, Ubuntite/Ubuntero simply means that you've signed the code of conduct, and conceptually it should be a prerequisite for membership/maintainership (although I'm not sure if Launchpad actually implements that)03:16
jsgotangcoit does03:16
KamionI'm also not sure that it really matters that much what it's called, or why the CC needs to decide on it :-)03:16
elmoKamion: it doesn't03:16
Seveasok, but which one is the official word for person-who-signed-the-coc-and-pledged-allegiance-to-ubuntu :)03:17
Kamionkiko: I assumed sabdfl had renamed it to Ubuntero, which would kind of make it official03:17
Kamiondid somebody explicitly ask for it to be brought up here?03:17
Seveasyes, kiko03:17
makoit was originally ubuntite03:17
elmoKamion: implement it as a prerequisite for membership, I mean.  the only thing signed_CoC enforces is ubuntu.com email03:17
KamionSeveas: I'm asking kiko if somebody asked him03:17
kikoit's been asked on a number of occasions03:17
makothat is what was written in the process documents03:17
kikowe need to change the wording in Launchpad03:17
SeveasKamion, ah, sorry /me grabs glasses03:17
kikoI just want to make sure that this is the definitive answer03:18
makobut if sabdfl has very strong feelings, that's fine03:18
Kamionit was changed from Ubuntite to Ubuntero in Launchpad03:18
=== mako nods
makoi saw that03:18
makoi was a little a confused.. 03:18
kiko(I personally think Ubuntu member is a better name but ignore my opinions :-P)03:18
kikothere are places that still say Ubuntite03:18
Seveaskiko, Ubuntero != member03:18
ograits pre-membership03:18
kikothe reason this happened is because it was hacked in by a certain person03:18
Kamionwhy not just stick a tooltip/link on it explaining what it means? even I think the wording is confusing03:18
kikowe will03:18
Kamionbut that's a launchpad development issue03:19
kikoI want someone to:03:19
kikoa) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change03:19
kikob) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault03:19
kikowe all know how mark is with email and requests03:19
Kamionin this case it wasn't at all the CC's fault, but OK :-)03:19
kikoand I want to make sure we don't drop the ball so often03:20
makokiko: mark made this change right?03:20
kikothe fact that is says ubuntite and ubuntero in places makes me want to DIE03:20
=== kiko turns his back to mako and whistles
Kamionwe're kind of at the point where we need a CC mailing list03:20
Kamion(i.e. the four of us)03:20
ograkiko, we really dont wnat that you want to die 03:20
kikothat is all on that topic from me :)03:20
elmokiko: dude, this change was made directly in launchpad with no consultation with the CC - what exactly do you expect from us here?03:21
kikoI'll put it this way03:21
makokiko: it was *always* ubuntite and not particularly controversial AFAIK..03:21
elmokiko: we've got about as much chance of fixing this as you have of demanding sabdfl always add tests when he commits 03:21
makokiko: now, the alternative is not particularly controversial either03:21
ogramako, until sabdfl changed it :)03:21
makoit's just a name and i, for one, am not going to fight anyone over it03:21
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ograthere he is03:21
sabdflmorning all03:21
Seveasthere's the guilty one!03:21
kikolol. well, people here seem to know something about the word "ubuntero", while the first time I saw this was in a launchpad landing. :)03:22
sabdflsorry to be late, didn't hear about it till breakfast03:22
Kamion Definitive name for Ubuntero: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/5317 (ChristianReis)03:22
Kamionsabdfl: ^-- point on agenda03:22
=== kiko looks at sabdfl
Kamionkiko: we only know it because (a) it randomly came up in random people's blogs like a year and a half ago, (b) we all saw it in launchpad03:22
Kamion14:19 < kiko> I want someone to:03:22
Kamion14:19 < kiko> a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change03:22
Kamion14:19 < kiko> b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault03:22
makosabdfl: it was originally ubuntite.. LP code seems to now call it ubuntero in some but not all places03:23
kikothis is a bit confusing to me but okay. I thought the CC would deliberate on this sort of naming changes.03:23
Kamionsabdfl: is that something the CC can/should do? obviously we can hardly stop you from making changes in launchpad :-)03:23
SeveasKamion, duct tape?03:23
makoi don't think anyone is going to fight over the name03:23
makoi'm not at least03:23
kikoI'm not either03:23
MagicFabKamion: articfacts ?03:23
kjcoleI think folks who are not very far along in the process should be known as Ubunturists (Ubunt-tourists).03:23
makobut would like consistency :)03:24
sabdflconsistency is good :-)03:24
zakamehi sabdfl :D03:24
sabdfli changed it in the places i knew it existed, it's a bug as ubuntite anywhere03:24
zygaUbuntu*ists could be exploited to many different and ackward names03:24
sabdflthough, someone did point out there is a gender issue in some languages03:24
Seveassabdfl, ok, we will maill all occurences of ubuntite to you :)03:24
makosabdfl: in what sense?03:25
makosabdfl: in "ubuntero"03:25
sabdflSeveas: rather file bugs on LP03:25
elmomako: ubuntero is male?03:25
naliothelmo: in latin cultures, yes03:25
makoubuntite seems quite neutral03:25
=== mako nods
Kamion"Ubuntu" has case issues in some languages - my general opinion is "whatever" unless I'm actively sorting out translations03:25
sabdfli cant remember, but in some languages it's definitely one or the other03:25
MarioMeyer_ubuntite would sound female in portuguese03:25
raphinkyes ubuntero is definitely male03:25
kjcolesabdfl, Oops. Not thinking multi-lingually.  My mistake.03:25
sabdflubuntite seems a little uptite03:25
MagicFabUbuntera would be female in spanish03:25
=== mako likes ubuntite personally
makobbut only because people from seattle are seattlites03:26
sabdflhmm... we could of course let people specify themselves03:26
=== jsgotangco likes ubuntite too..its the original term i believe....
makosabdfl: no :)03:26
makosabdfl: just choose one :)03:26
MagicFabUbuntero/a would mean docs in spanish would have to accomodate for both (in some places)03:26
bhuvan+1 for ubuntite03:26
=== smurf likes ubuntero
Kamionsabdfl: as long as there's a link to what it means in lp so that people quit asking, I really don't care03:26
Seveasbhuvan, we're not voting :)03:27
sabdflKamion: +103:27
Kamionand I don't think the CC should get into the bikeshed argument of which it should be03:27
elmoI think we shouldn't underestimate the gender-bias in ubuntero03:27
=== jsgotangco feels ubuntero sounds like a mexican folk singer in costume
=== raphink likes ubuntero but thinks the male/female issue might be a pb
elmothere's enough problems with barriers for women in IT without us adding potential new ones03:27
\shsabdfl: is there no female/male/to be defined sex suffix for this in zulu?03:27
dholbachwhat's wrong with using "ubuntu member" and translating "member" in different languages shouldn't be hard - it doesn't sound cool, but it "works" :)03:27
makoi don't think gender-specific name for people who have signed the coc is a good idea03:27
sabdflelmo: you and your lost causes ;-)03:27
Kamiondholbach: because it's *not* membership03:27
kikoubuntera/ubuntero? :-P03:27
makokiko: please no03:27
raphinkdholbach: ubunteros are not necessarily members yet03:27
MagicFabUBunturist sounds great, although a bit long03:27
zakamejsgotangco: lol03:28
\shubunturist sounds like ubuntu terrorists03:28
jsgotangcothat's jdub03:28
=== jsgotangco hides
bhuvanlet it not be terrorist :)03:28
Kamionok, this is what I mean about bikeshed arguments03:28
SeveasJdubuntu :)03:28
=== raphink looks around if there's no CIA agent
zakame\sh: haha03:28
kjcolesabdfl, I think that one only applies to benevolent dictators...03:28
zygadebianities, genotooities, fedoraxies are thankfully non-existant, I agree with dholbach's suggeston for something simple, Kamion is right too03:28
sabdflok, leave it as it is, with a link to an explanation03:28
Seveasmore kiko03:28
makosabdfl: wait.. 03:28
ograas is is broken03:29
makothe problem is that it's inconsistent03:29
ograwe need one name03:29
makodoes leave it as it is mean "make it all ubuntero"03:29
StevenKIt's a name we have came up with. We can just declare it is gender-neutral, right?03:29
elmoStevenK: no03:29
sabdflright, i was saying ubuntero is the current one, ubuntite is a bug, we can do a vote on it to settle how it should be03:29
Seveasmako, sabdfl said: File bugs when you see Ubuntite - inconsistency can not be solved right here right now :)03:29
raphinkStevenK: not sure, in latin cultures it feels funny to call a female with -o name03:30
sabdflraphink: not even really cool females?03:30
smurfsabdfl: I don't think so03:30
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elmosabdfl: no03:30
smurfsabdfl: Spain is not Russia ;-)03:30
=== bhuvan prays no new gender issue on ubuntero in future
raphinksabdfl: let's see, females I see on linux systems like to be recognized as such even more than in other places most of the time...03:31
\sh.oO(what is a really cool female?"03:31
Seveas\sh, my fiancee :)03:31
raphink\sh: lol03:31
=== ogra thinks ice princess
sabdfli have another 30 mins, guys03:31
elmosabdfl: dude, I've already had people complain about this to me.  I'm not arguing for hypotheticals03:31
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raphinkfemales who get to use Ubuntu deserve much ;)03:31
\shSeveas: but she is not from a latin country, right? ,)03:31
Seveas\sh, no03:31
KamionStevenK: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/ubuntu/1116733725 is the origin03:31
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sabdflok, i don't mind reverting to ubuntite, but i think it sounds trite and uptight :-)03:32
ogralets move on ...03:32
Kamionit's expressly coming from idioms in other languages03:32
Seveassabdfl, you should revert it anyway temporarily until we can come up with a Really Cool Name(tm)03:32
makoseems like next up is the typo in the CoC03:32
kjcoleOne could look at Esperanto rules and see if there's any kind of gender-neutral, language-neutral ending...03:32
raphinkSeveas: lol03:32
=== mhz thinks 'ubunter' is just perfect
Kamion Typo in the Code of Conduct: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/3952 (ChristianReis)03:33
Kamionat least this one is definitely within the CC's purview ;-)03:33
Seveasit means everyone will have to sign again03:33
raphinkkjcole: names in esperanto finish with -o and are neutral. Male names finish with -ulo and female with -ino.03:33
Seveasraphink, we moved on already...03:33
sabdflthose caps are a little scary03:33
kikoso there's a typo in the CoC03:33
mhzraphink: good point03:33
sabdflwe don't have to re-sign03:33
KamionSeveas: no, there's no particular reason to require people to sign the most current version if it's just a typo cleanup03:33
Seveasah ok03:34
sabdflthe system is smart enough to remember which version you signed03:34
Kamionit would have to be a new version, yes03:34
sabdfland i think it has a list of currently valid versions03:34
makoi'm reading tha tcnetance and i can't even see the error03:34
Seveasif launchpad can handle multiple CoC's there's no problem03:34
kikoit can03:34
Kamionwhile we're at it we should nominate somebody to do a general proofreading pass03:34
makoah, ok03:34
kikoI just wanted to bring this matter to your attention03:34
KamionI'm happy to volunteer for that03:34
makosure, shhould bbe fixed03:34
sabdflkiko: nicely done03:34
Seveaswho will fix it?03:34
mhzKamion: would new versions include localisations?03:34
ograSeveas, Kamion 03:34
Kamionmhz: that's a separate issue03:35
kikomhz, not yet, different topic.03:35
makomhz: we haven't talked about that03:35
Seveas.oO(Note to self: thorough proofreading of CoC for next meeting)03:35
Kamionogra: I can't change launchpad03:35
MagicFabperhaps also include a reminder to people that have signed, whenever it changes03:35
kikoSeveas, I have someone to do that, I just want a new copy of the CoC, properly proofread.03:35
ograKamion, oh, misunderstood03:35
kikoI can also produce a list of people that have signed the old one03:35
KamionSeveas: doesn't need to be in a meeting, I can just mail the CC a diff to make sure everyone's happy with the changes03:35
sabdflmhz: we definitely want to do loclaisations of the CoC, just needs LP dev time03:35
makokiko: well, go ahead and make that one-byte change03:35
makoit's uncontroversial03:35
kikoif we want to spam them to re-sign03:35
sabdflkiko: no need for that no03:35
Kamionmako: I'd really like to avoid 1.0.1 1.0.2 etc. for successive one-byte changes03:36
kikomako, I would rather only rev the version once this time03:36
Seveaskiko, neh, not for this change03:36
MagicFabKamion: align it with release cycles03:36
makoKamion: so, wait until next week03:36
kikoI said spam for a reason :)03:36
Kamionshall I do this and mail launchpad@ with the diff once we're done03:36
KamionMagicFab: no03:36
makoit's been there for a year, we can wait two weeks :)03:36
makokiko: and no, i don't think people need to resign03:36
=== sabdfl never noticed it before
bhuvanwe can post in mailing lists03:36
SeveasKamion, sounds like a plan03:36
Kamionmako: it'll take ten minutes to do ;)03:36
mhzsabdfl: I asked because in case other people want to become members, I could ofer myself for the non-offcial version so they could at least understant what they'll face whn they sign03:36
kikoKamion, that would be perfect.03:36
kjcolekiko, since you have a way of knowing who signed, is there a way to just automatically build that into some sort of announce mailing-list (broadcast only)?03:36
sabdflmhz: we will do proper i18n for the CoC, just need to extend the system that tracks them03:37
kikokjcole, not easily, but talk to me on #launchpad later about your use case and I'll see.03:37
makoyeah, i can take a look at it again also03:37
=== mhz okis
makobut people have a pretty amazing ability to see right through their own errors03:37
Kamionok, NEXT :-)03:37
Amaranthmako: In more than just spelling and grammar. :)03:38
KamionAutomatix / forums nightmare argument issue03:38
Kamionare the relevant people actually here?03:38
robotgeekI have a nice writeup here: http://robotgeek.org/cc.html03:38
Amaranthbtw, holy crap i made it to a meeting03:38
Seveasautomatix is the piece of crap that triggers reinstalls all over03:38
KyralSeveas: Agreed :D03:38
ograthats the one that breaks your sources.list, right ? 03:39
Kamionrobotgeek: thanks, please add that to the link farm on the agenda03:39
robotgeekthat link provides all relevant background, and also provides the links to conversations in #ubuntuforums03:39
Madpilotand it's causing censorship problems in the forums...03:39
Seveasthat last line may have been a violation of the CoC, but the script is SO DAMN STUPID, I already know of dozens of people who had to reinstall after using it03:39
naliothautomatix is just a symptom of the larger issue03:39
Kamion(which we'll probably move to somewhere else, but anyway)03:39
robotgeekKamion: sorry, i came up with it two hours ago. will do right away03:39
KyralIt adds the PLF repos for one thing...03:39
mako"thereby violating my rights given to me by GPL": i don't think you mean that03:39
Kamionso I can't say I'm terribly impressed with the post-deletions issue I've seen; however we have not yet heard the administration say their piece03:40
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robotgeekmako: it was GPL'ed, and they did not allow me to post my changes?03:40
Kamionand I don't particularly want us to hold a trial in absentia03:40
ograand they are not here it seems03:40
=== raphink wonders why magic scripts like automatix or easyubuntu are not replaced by series of inter-dependent packages in multiverse
SeveasKamion, indeed, but the forum administrators seem not to like coming to meetings03:40
Amaranthraphink: work on that was done where it made sense03:40
Seveasthe almost always miss them03:40
AmaranthYeah, the forum has really seemed to distance itself.03:41
naliothare the ubuntuforums 'official' ?03:41
Kyralraphink: The reason why is because the majority of what they do is pull in things like w32codecs and SunJava03:41
Seveasnalioth, yes03:41
Amarantherr, since when?03:41
Seveassince a long time already03:41
raphinkKyral: well then it's not useful03:41
makorobotgeek: it would only be a GPL issue if you let you distribute the binary but not the source03:41
jsgotangcosince we started paying part of the hosting...03:41
Kamionnalioth: yes, and Canonical contributes to their funding03:41
robotgeekmako: it's a bash script :)03:41
makorobotgeek: this is a social problem, not a licensingg isssue03:41
robotgeekmako: agreed03:42
makorobotgeek: lets focus on the real issue03:42
Amaranthany canonical employees have any powers on the forum?03:42
Amaranthor any ubuntu members, even?03:42
jsgotangcono idea03:42
naliothi think the forums needs a check-call, because there are major problems there. they seem to think the forums are not part of the ubuntu community as a whole03:42
KamionAmaranth: a number of forums folks are members03:42
KyralI believe UbuntuGeek is a Member03:42
SeveasAmaranth, most of the forum staff are members03:42
Seveasso they should (but don't) respect the code of conduct03:42
Kamionbut there are no Canonical employees in the administration to my knowledge (which is probably how it should be)03:42
jjesseit seems every meeting lately there are issues w/ the forums03:42
makoalright, the accusations are flying hard and heavy03:43
ograjjesse, yes, but the people never appear here 03:43
makothe forums are *huge*03:43
AmaranthKamion: I can see both sides of that one but I'd think having at least a mod would be a good thing.03:43
MagicFabPLF repos and ubuntu-fr docs are very non-free friendly - post install info includes Skype, msttfonts, MP3, etc.03:43
makothey are a massive portion of the ubuntu community03:43
MagicFabubuntu-fr.org , that is03:43
jjesseogra: if they don't appear here, then how can we deal w/ them here?03:43
makoin terms of raw numbers, they are quite likely the largest part03:43
ograjjesse, thats the prob :)03:43
makoit might  makes sense that there a proportional amount of disagreements come from them03:43
jsgotangcomost of the time, the forums are a unique community by itself...03:43
robotgeekthe problem is that Ubuntuforums tends to feel that they are not a part of this community, even starting off their own wiki project03:44
KyralMagicFab: I had a help case in where using the PLF repos seemed to cripple someone's system so bad that he couldn't install build-essential03:44
zakameindeed :(03:44
Seveasok, we are rescheduling CC meetings at the end of this one, should we just defer this for now and wait for the next meeting so the forum staff can show up?03:44
jsgotangcorobotgeek, that feeling is social03:44
Seveaswithout forum staff there is not much we can do now03:44
\shSeveas: if they show up03:44
KamionI didn't realise this was coming up until I looked at the agenda two hours ago03:44
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Kamiondid anyone explicitly ask the forums administration to show up here at this time?03:45
mhzrobotgeek: I agree on that03:45
robotgeekhalf of the stuff is going to be gone, cause they prune the threads and all03:45
Amaranthrobotgeek: So kassetra basically just moved every automatix-related post you made to the jail?03:45
Seveasthey really should stop deleting things03:45
MadpilotKamion: it's been posting at CCAgenda for a day or two03:45
MagicFabSome articles in ubuntu-fr planet explain how to use .debs directly etc. - I am not opposed to that but perhaps guidelines for LoCos should extend the CoC and provide for this03:45
Kyralthe Ubuntu Forums channel is #ubuntuforums if anyone wants to know03:45
robotgeekAmaranth: yup. 03:45
smurfIMHO removing (meta-)controversial items instead of openly discussing them simply aggravates the problem in the long run03:45
sabdflsmurf: +103:45
KamionMadpilot: yes, but I don't sit reloading that religiously03:45
MadpilotAmaranth: one of my posts was yanked too03:45
naliothAmaranth: robotgeek was not the only one 'pruned'03:45
KamionMadpilot: and I doubt forums admins do either03:45
SeveasKamion, subscribe to it ;)03:46
MagicFabMadpilot: not everyone knows to subscribe to wiki pages03:46
Amaranthnalioth: That'd be like you and me kicking random people in #ubuntu. :P03:46
sabdflso, i think Kassetra has misread the GPL03:46
kjcolesmurf: Agreed.  Hiding stuff doesn't make it go away.03:46
KamionSeveas: I just did, but still, there's a lot of noise, and it *still* doesn't address the issue that nobody has yet owned up to asking the forums admins to be here03:46
ograMagicFab, its one click03:46
SeveasKamion, I'll ask for the next meeting03:47
robotgeeksabdfl: i think the issue was that arnieboy was a forum staff member03:47
KamionSeveas: thank you03:47
Amaranthnormal users can't get into the jail?03:47
raphinka consequence of documenting .deb installations too much is that many people come to pretend Ubuntu is hard to use because they tried to install stuff this way instead of using apt-get (or GUIs)03:47
SeveasAmaranth, normal users can't see half of the forums03:47
sabdflshe seems to think that it requires permission to change the code and publish a modified version03:47
Seveasthey are too closed for non-members too03:47
MagicFabogra: I know, among many other click in the same page. The forum admins may not be familiar with it (I wasn't). explicit invitation and "subscribe" should do it.03:47
AmaranthSeveas: Now that I have a serious problem with.03:47
KyralI'll PM Kass on the Forums if anyone wants me to03:47
Kamionone of the threads linked to from the agenda does have arnieboy apparently threatening to delete bug reports (implying doing it himself, although it wasn't explicit)03:47
MadpilotKamion: that's exactly what happened to several posts, including robotgeek's03:48
sabdflrobotgeek: did the new version correctly credit arnieboy's original copyright?03:48
robotgeeksabdfl: yes03:48
KamionMagicFab: no, if somebody needs to show up for some bit of arbitration, they need to be explicitly asked to show up, rather than expecting everyone who might be involved in arbitration to subscribe all the time03:48
sabdflKamion: +103:48
robotgeeksabdfl: i just added my name at the top, everything else was intact03:48
smurfsabdfl: I'd be inclined to treat that as a symptom for now; if the discussion would have (a) stayed open and (b) people wouldn't immediately jump on each other, minor issues like what the GPL means are self-correcting03:48
=== mako nods to smurf
sabdflsmurf: well, i suspect the forums admins are super busy, and don't want to leave things out there03:49
Amaranth(off topic: claiming automatix is the successor to "ubuntu guide" doesn't make me feel too good about it)03:49
MagicFabKamion: I was saying "invite them to meeting", but also "tell them to subscribe to the Agenda" as appropriate03:49
sabdflthey have to take decisions quickly, or it would all pile up03:49
SeveasAmaranth, you shouldn't03:49
zakamehm I think observing the code of conduct in the forums should be emphasized :(03:49
Seveasit's utter crap03:49
Kyralzakame: Here Here!03:49
KamionMagicFab: I'm just saying I don't think the latter is an appropriate thing for us to ask them to do; most people don't live for community council meetings03:49
jjesseAmaranth: people should be using the ubuntu guide that is included in the docs03:49
makoAmaranth: the fact it installs lots of non-free and undistributable software doesn't exactly help03:49
robotgeekAmaranth: it's Ubuntu Forums wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page03:49
naliothAmaranth: they dont claim that, there is another site that they make that claim about03:49
makoand (apparently) bypasses legally binding shrinkrap licenses03:49
sabdflthe question here is did Kassetra just make a mistake (easily corrected) or was she trying to help arnieboy and ignoring the GPL in the process03:50
Amaranthnalioth: arnieboy makes that claim in his signature03:50
Kyralsabdfl: I have a log of an IRC "discussion" I had with the rest of the Forums community about it03:50
jjessethe doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Paige03:50
makosabdfl: i don't think it's fair to have this conversation without Kas or arniebboy03:50
jjessethe doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page03:50
KyralI could dig it up and post it someplace03:50
SeveasKyral, post it for the next meeting03:50
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KyralSeveas: Edited for content?03:50
Seveaswe cannot really do anything now03:50
MagicFabYeah, CoC should prevail03:51
SeveasKyral, verbose03:51
crimsunI agree with mako03:51
robotgeeksabdfl: if you look at the google cache link, she did it knowingly. in fact, i believe she crafted the license03:51
zakameKyral: I mean if people there simply delete posts (er even threaten deletion) that wouldn't do anyone good :(03:51
sabdflthe hotel just called to let me know that my "ground transportation" has arrived.03:51
smurfHmmm. It works very well for ubuntuusers.de; the forum there is *quite* busy too. Letting the members self-police, and ping admins when necessary, basically works here.03:51
AmaranthKyral: Can you email that to alleykat@gmail.com ?03:51
sabdflhow very military03:51
KyralOkay: Its ugly, tempers flared03:51
Seveassabdfl, g'bye then03:51
KyralAmaranth: After class remind me :P03:51
robotgeeksabdfl: nice talking to you03:51
KyralI'll remmebr but just in case03:51
SeveasShall we move on to the next topic?03:51
Kyralcya sabdfl03:51
ograsabdfl, so dont forget your helmet ;)03:51
Kyralor your towel!03:51
KamionSeveas: if you're happy to take responsibility for asking some set of Kassetra, arnieboy, ubuntugeek, and/or other admins to show up, that would be fantastic03:51
kjcolesabdfl: ta-ta03:51
jsgotangcobye sabdfl thanks for the email too03:51
Kamionsabdfl: see you03:51
SeveasKamion, I will03:52
MagicFabsabdfl: quick remonider: ColombianTeam starting, hoping to see you there03:52
KamionSeveas: thank you03:52
zakamebye sabdfl :D03:52
Kamionok, NEXT03:52
MagicFabsabdfl: (in Colombia, next year)03:52
Seveasmhz, 03:52
raphinksabdfl: have a good ground transportation ;)03:52
KamionMauricioHernandez was approved during last meeting but he still does not appear listed as member in ?LaunchPad (it's been 2 weeks)03:52
sabdflmako: i still think we could easily take a view on the derivative work, and let Kas know that we think it's fine and not in violation of the CoC and therefore does not need to be in the jail03:52
mhzSeveas: yup?03:52
Kamionmhz isn't approved because mako didn't vote (that I saw)03:52
Kamionmako: ?03:52
Seveasmako, you said you would vote for mhz later and didn't do so yet, so please :)03:52
sabdflwait guys, i don't think we need to call the whole forums group in for every issue03:52
Seveasmako, cool03:52
Seveasmhz, welcome aboard!03:52
=== ogra applauds mhz ...
mhzmako: thx, hehehe03:52
sabdflthe "censorship" here is just Kas enforcing what she understands03:52
Kamionsabdfl: Kassetra and arnieboy, then? they seem to be the relevant pair03:53
Seveas(who has launchpad duty today?)03:53
KamionSeveas: me03:53
sabdfland we can rule that the code is fine to be published (even if we don't like the code)03:53
mhzogra: finally :)03:53
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sabdflthat should be enough for robotgeek to get what he wants03:53
zakameyay mhz !03:53
SeveasNext up kjcole 03:53
sabdfland Kas to gain a better understanding of the GPL03:53
mhzzakame: educool03:53
kjcoleOK.  I assume we're talking the LoCo names and not my membership.03:54
MagicFabbien, mhz :D03:54
sabdflif there is still censorship after that, then it's not accidental03:54
Seveaskjcole, correct03:54
Kamionsabdfl: right, needs someone who themselves has a good understanding of licensing to talk to them so that if they have other issues then there can be a useful discussion rather than "uh ..."03:54
mhzMagicFab: thx, suerte a ti!03:54
AmaranthKamion: Volunteering? :)03:55
sabdflKamion: they are welcome to ping any of us on IRC, if they need that clarification, but this one is simple, Kas was not correct to jail the thread on the grounds of IP03:55
KamionAmaranth: not especially :-/03:55
kjcoleI've herded the US cats, as per smurf's request.  The consensus seemed to be Us<<State>><<City|CompassPoint>>03:55
KyralI think we need RMS to talk to her lol03:55
sabdflno need to turn it into a major issue03:55
AmaranthKyral: We don't want to scar her for life...03:55
SeveasKyral, :|03:55
kjcolee.g. UsTxAustin or UsTxNorth.03:55
KyralAmaranth: lol03:55
Kamionkjcole: domain names aren't wiki-style ...03:55
raphinkKyral: +103:55
Seveaskjcole, Do you think there will be so many teams?!03:55
=== Kyral actually wants to meet RMS :D
SeveasKyral, please don't go off-topic03:56
kjcoleHyphens instead of wiki style was also an option.03:56
ograSeveas, US is a bit bigger than europe ;)03:56
Seveasogra, true, but 2 in texas?03:56
smurfkjcole: umm, would that be north.tx.ubuntu-us.org then?03:56
Kamionsabdfl: ok, how about I communicate that to her03:56
jbaileySeveas: In the US and Canada, it's often not so much number of teams as proximity.03:56
kjcoleSeveas: The problem is we already have two in texas...03:56
Seveassmurf, that and ubutnu-us-tx-north@lists03:56
Kamionsince everyone else is RUNNING AWAY :-)03:56
ograSeveas, Texas is bigger than europe i guess :)03:56
jbaileySeveas: Canada is 14 times the size of France. =)03:56
raphinkogra: Tx is not much bigger than France or Germany03:56
makoi'm happy to talk to them03:57
ograraphink, but still ...03:57
Kamionmako: hooray03:57
=== mako knows a couple things about licensingg
=== Seveas cheers for mako
MagicFabjbailey: and half the people03:57
AmaranthHeh, I was just about to say mako probably knows best. :)03:57
kjcoleRewinding a bit: At UBZ, a few were talking about how "country" and "local" meant two different things.03:57
sabdflcheers all03:57
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Seveaskjcole, anyway, sounds like a plan and since you don't need CC approval for such things you should simply ping smurf to arrange it :)03:58
makoi'm going to finish reading the logs and then contact kas and arnieboy03:58
kjcoleLocal (to me and a few others) suggested a community where people were close enough to meet face to face.03:58
jbaileyMagicFab: Right.  But a 5.5 time zone spread makes meetings very hard. =)03:58
smurfFine with me, anyay03:58
MagicFabkjcole: and "locale" too03:58
KamionSeveas: indeed03:58
makodoes someone have arniboy's email?03:58
Seveasmako, will you ask them to come to the meeting too?03:58
smurfas long as people don't want ubuntu-us-tx-north.org :-/03:58
robotgeekmako: greyrod@gmail.com03:58
KamionSeveas: no, that's obsolete03:58
robotgeeknothing's wrong with TX03:58
SeveasKamion, ok03:58
Kyralrobotgeek: lol03:59
SeveasSo then we landed at new members03:59
KamionSeveas: sabdfl ruled on it, none of us disagreed (and I think we all heartily agree), end of story :)03:59
MarioMeyer_why dont u do sub-domains.. like north.tx.ubuntu-us.org03:59
SeveasMarioMeyer_, they do03:59
SeveasKamion, couldn't agree more03:59
makoSeveas: sure03:59
\shsmurf: you could sell subdomains to it...like me.at.* like jump.to ,-)03:59
smurf\sh: They're Canonical's ;-)04:00
Seveasanyway, anyone question/remarks about any of the previous topics?04:00
MagicFabI know if I go to Texas I wouldn't be searching for "TX" or "north.tx" 04:00
Seveasgoing once04:00
robotgeekSeveas: wait...04:00
makolets move on04:00
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makoit's gonna be pumpkin time again sooner rather than later04:00
robotgeekSeveas: the main issue is not with my script/whatever, but with the censorship. However, that's for later?04:00
Seveasrobotgeek, yes04:00
Seveasmoving on now04:01
Kamionrobotgeek: already ruled on and passed04:01
SeveasMagicFab 04:01
MagicFabposting summary...04:01
MagicFabWikiPage:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez - re-edited since last CC. I am originally from Colombia, have been living in Quebec Canada since '89. I am part of Canadian Team, Marketing Team and recently helping Colombian Team get started (Loco Contact). I started UbuntuInLibraries, I also occasionally do cleanup on the Wiki, post to forums or help in #ubuntu, #ubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-es.04:01
MagicFabI currently work full-time as an Open Source software solutions consultant, focusing on security and migration issues in Montreal. I have developed Linux training focused on Ubuntu which will be given at local libraries and ed. facilities, I have strong links to the local community and I am mostly interested in advocacy/marketing (events, etc.), local support & training and new users introduction / migration to Gnu/Linux04:01
ograMagicFab participated a lot in te ltsp BOFs iirc ...04:02
Seveasto add: MagicFab was defered last time, since his wiki page was not clear enough on his contributions (being mainly in advocacy) and he has been asked to return this time after fixing that04:02
Kamionmako: did you work with MagicFab over the last two weeks?04:02
MagicFabI asked Drobitaille, CBurger , HFiguiere (members) to come, they're all in timezones difficult to come04:03
MagicFabBUrger is here, also GuBa from (future) ColombianTeam04:03
makoMagicFab: did we? i don't remember doing more than a few messages04:03
mhzMagicFab: has also been active on marketing proposals and spreading ubuntu for latinamerican people04:03
MagicFabmako: no, I asked for input but didn't get any replies. However I asked other members/users and did many changes04:04
=== Kamion finds https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%C3%A1nRodr%C3%ADguezDetail
Seveas Actively marketing and selling Ubuntu-related services locally: <-- any url on that?04:04
mhzSeveas, also MagicFab has started UbuntuInLibraries initiative04:05
makoi'm still concerned that many of the more substantial projects within the the ubuntu project have pages and edits that are within the last week or two04:05
jsgotangcomako, as if rushing for something?04:06
Seveasmhz, yeah I really like that one04:06
makomhz: yes, but that page is 9 days old04:06
MagicFabmako: whois04:06
makoon a conference call next week, we discussed the idea of giving some more fixed guidelines in terms of what we meaned by sustained projects04:07
mhzhmmm, it is probably because many non-english activities related to ubuntu are usually not logged somewhere04:07
makobasically, an involvement in/on a particular project that is 2+ months04:07
makomhz: well, then we need testimonials04:07
=== mako is still reading the detail page
Seveasmako, advocacy is not always in projects04:08
MagicFabmako: well, Iasked you driectly for input, didn't get any. I didn't re-add myself to the CC agenda, so I thought it was OK. Regardless, membership is not a requisite for me to keep contributing.04:08
mhzmako: that's why having latinamerican ubuntu memebers was so important04:08
makoSeveas: i understand that and i have been happy to accept other advocates04:08
makoand i'm going to be happy to accept MagicFab too :)04:09
makobut in fairness to everyone else, it seems like *some* testimonials would be useful04:09
mhzusually, many contributors do not get logged mainly because 99% of what they do is in spanish or other lang.04:09
makoin the absence of other documentation04:09
Seveasmako, the people who can are not yet here04:09
makomhz: point me to spanish pages then04:09
makoother people have04:09
MagicFabhow can I get that if theycan't come.04:10
makoSeveas: i understand that04:10
jsgotangcomhz, that shouldnt be an impendiment04:10
MagicFabmhz: all my contribs are listed there (my wiki)04:10
makoMagicFab: you can have them write it up? as comments on your page04:10
makoin email to the CC04:10
makothere are many options04:10
Seveasmako, that's an idea04:10
mhzjsgotangco: i know, it is just that even I had to make a decision... english or spanish. I chose english.04:10
makoi believe we have solved the communicating asynchronously problem ;)04:10
Kamionmako: perhaps we could mail those that Fabian lists under People and ask them for comments04:10
Kamion(hub, corey, daniel, sivan)04:11
mhzMagicFab: do you have a list or something?04:11
makoKamion: seems good04:11
MagicFabmako: yes04:11
mhzmako: good point04:11
MagicFabKamion: exactly04:11
Kamionmhz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%c3%a1nRodr%c3%adguez04:11
MagicFabmako: they all need to be current members, right ?04:11
SeveasMagicFab, not per se04:11
Kamionmako: wanna do that, or shall I?04:11
Seveasbut it helps04:11
Kamioncertainly all the above are known to me, although I don't know hub so well04:12
makoMagicFab: they should have been around for a long time and are well known and trusted by the CC and teh community04:12
makoMagicFab: that will almost always make them members :)04:12
makobut need not04:12
MagicFabOne thing I sense is that advocacy is always treated as second-class work. I feel I could become member by going MOTU in 1/10 the time04:12
AmaranthMagicFab: It's easier to show MOTU work.04:12
KamionMagicFab: it's not so much second-class as much harder to "measure"04:12
MagicFabAnd, well, without advocacy what would we do ?04:12
makoMagicFab: that's not true04:12
jsgotangcoMagicFab, that ain't true...04:12
Seveaskamion +104:12
=== jsgotangco is more of advocate rather than developer
ograMagicFab, you cant become MOTU without being member 04:13
makoi can think of a dozen members off of my top of my head who have pure advocacy04:13
jjesseMagicFab: it took me 4 or 5 tries to be a member04:13
makoprobably 50% are pure advocacy memberships (even if they do other things)04:13
MagicFabWell, it's not encouraging any advocacy work to just say "it's harder" - I mentioned in the last CC there needed to be more info for this kind of contributing04:13
ograMagicFab, but indeed its easier to document a handfull of bugs you solved than social work04:13
smurfMagicFab: you forget that MOTU work is not visible most of the time -- all the hours of hacking on your box to find those damn bugs ...04:13
jsgotangcoogra, true the social work really needs to be visible...04:14
makoMagicFab: we talked about creating guidelines in a conference call after the next meeting04:14
ograand bugs are in bugzilla already04:14
=== teroedni [n=teroedni@ti411310a080-3247.bb.online.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
MagicFabogra: I'd like to work on that too -04:14
ogragreat :)04:14
=== akurashy [n=David@] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jsgotangcojjesse, only because you don't go to meetings often before =)04:15
makoMagicFab: you're not beiing rejected and you shouldn't feel that way04:15
jjessejsgotangco: grin :)04:15
MagicFabsmurf: will setup a CVS for my UBuntu mentions all day :)04:15
makowe ask everyone for 2 full months of sustained, significant, and  visible contributions04:15
MagicFabmako : I don't  ;) I feel like my membership process is testing some new ground04:15
makofrequently, the visible the hard part :)04:15
jsgotangcogrowing pains04:15
SeveasMagicFab, it is04:16
bhuvanMagicFab, you must not take it that way04:16
MagicFabmako: ONE month04:16
zakamejsgotangco: here here! :D04:16
MagicFabor two depending on sources - that's what I mean04:16
MagicFabanyways, I04:17
makoMagicFab: we're probably going to change that :)04:17
MagicFab will get involved in the NewMember stuff, hope to learn more from there04:17
SeveasMagicFab, cool, glad you don't feel rejected04:17
bhuvanMagicFab, good04:17
makoMagicFab: where does it say one month?04:18
=== ian_brasil [n=vern@pintada.proamazon.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
Seveasmako, you have said that before, so I put that on the what-to-do-if-you-want-to-be-a-member page04:18
makoMagicFab: also, that is a wikipage, not an official process page04:18
zakameMagicFab: go rock the advocacy :D04:18
KamionMagicFab: the mention of a month there is about people who never show up for discussion04:18
makoSeveas: cool04:18
mhzMagicFab: how old is tha include you made and shared with me ?04:18
makoalright, lets go on04:19
=== chmj [n=chmj@dsl-146-143-211.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
SeveasLaserJock, 04:19
Seveasgive us the 3-line intro please04:19
LaserJockwiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha04:19
LaserJockLP: https://launchpad.net/people/mantha04:19
LaserJockI am a 4th year PhD student in Physical Chemistry at the University of Nevada, Reno. I have been using Ubuntu since the Hoary Array CDs. I use it at work for data collection and analysis (as well as packaging on the side ;-) ) I've been helping out the MOTU since a few weeks before the Breezy release. I try to do whatever I can to help.04:19
LaserJockBasically, I try to focus on scientific package since I feel the need for that. For Breezy I worked on unmet deps and FTBFS as much as I could while learning to package.04:19
LaserJockI have done some merges and worked on some bugs. I also started a MOTUScience team and a working on an Ubuntu Packaging Guide for the doc-team. 04:19
bhuvanLaserJock have been doing good job on packaging guide for quite some time04:20
Seveasok, MOTU people, we need advocates :)04:20
MagicFabKamion: I'll dig it - the point is the process is CONFUSING and excluding advocacy because "it's hard to measure". I'll try harder to measure it, so should you04:20
jjesseLaserJock: is working hard on the doc team04:20
AmaranthLaserJock: ever get any feedback upstream on the science category?04:20
ograand at the MOTUs04:20
LaserJockAmaranth: don't think so yet04:20
LaserJockAmaranth: I will keep track of it though04:21
AmaranthLaserJock: if not snag the icon from the bug and see if seb128 will do it as a patch for now04:21
crimsunI worked with Jordan prior to Breezy's release; a couple of his changes are in Breezy04:21
KyralLaserJock: I think the only thing we got back was the email tag about FlowDesigner04:21
ograhe's around for quite some time already and did a lot of merges i'd consider myself as rather advanced tasks 04:21
crimsunI've also uploaded a host of his merge work for Dapper04:21
dholbachi was very happy to see LaserJock start the motuscience team and start working on organising the MOTU part of the wiki04:21
=== chmj [n=chmj@dsl-146-143-211.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
Seveasok, the cheerleaders are happy :)04:21
KamionMagicFab: yeah, it's something we talked about on the phone the other week and will be trying to improve04:22
MagicFabcrimsun: for how long ;)04:22
zakamego go go LaserJock :)04:22
seb128Amaranth: what?04:22
crimsunMagicFab: a bit longer than two months04:22
SeveasLaserJocks wikipage looks ok, syncing is a good job :)04:22
ograand wxwidgets is an evil package to start with, kudos ...04:23
bhuvanLaserJock, you should have included your doc patches in your wiki04:23
LaserJockogra: yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into 04:24
ograbut you did it :)04:24
SeveasLaserJock, to boldly merge what no one ever merged before04:24
Kamionprior to breezy's release => nearly more than two months already04:24
LaserJockSeveas: lol, ignorance instead of boldness maybe04:24
SeveasLaserJock, well you pulled it off04:25
Seveasthat's a big +04:25
\shlaserjock for membership? I'm happy to see him as member and later on as motu :)04:25
=== Bonzodog [n=Bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
LaserJock\sh: eventually. one step at a time04:25
Seveasthe crowd is happy, but what about the CC?04:25
makothere's certainly a lot of work h ere04:25
jsgotangcosolid work really04:26
Kamionthere are uploads from LaserJock going back to September, anyway04:26
\shLaserJock: no excuses no running away :)04:26
=== ogra remembers that mako can speak from a MOTU POV too now :)
=== dholbach hugs mako :)
=== ogra hugs mako too
bhuvandholbach you hug frequently :)04:26
\shoh yes...mako...welcome to MOTU :) we're waiting for your merges ;904:27
makoLaserJock sounds fine with me04:27
ograbhuvan, he's a true hugger04:27
KamionI'm very happy to see somebody taking up a bunch of science applications, and am happy with LaserJock for membership04:27
elmoack from me too04:27
SeveasLaserJock, congratz!04:27
dholbachcongratulations, LaserJock 04:28
LaserJockthanks CC, thanks all you supporters04:28
Seveaswelcome to the Ubuntumember boat04:28
\shLaserJock: welcome aboard :)04:28
KamionLaserJock: a lot of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline seems like it would fit under the banner of developer-documentation (discussed at UBZ; conclusion was to make a small branch of the Debian Developer's Reference)04:28
=== LaserJock hugs everybody
ograyay for LaserJock 04:28
SeveasNext up: Kyral (Chris Peterman)04:28
zakameyay LaserJock :D04:28
KyralWiki: wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisPeterman04:28
Kamionit might be worthwhile looking at that rather than duplicating several years of work in Debian04:28
LaserJockKamion: I talked to Diziet about that. He thought it was ok04:28
Kamionok ...04:28
LaserJockKamion: I will keep in touch with him though04:28
SeveasKyral has been quite active in #ubuntu04:29
=== ogra waits for the three liner intor
KyralGreetings. I am currently a second year CS Major at Clarkson University. Currently I am helping out mostly on the Forums, but I have also recently been helping out LaserJock with MOTUScience. I have also started a small LocoTeam between Clarkson University and SUNY Potsdam. Currently running Dapper on both my Desktop on Laptop04:30
Seveasthat's line one :)04:30
Seveaswhat are your plans for Ubuntu activity?04:30
\shhe forgot to tell us that he was the first pupil in ubuntus motu school :)04:31
mhzLaserJock: yahooo!04:31
MagicFabfor how long ?04:31
KyralYah, I got jumped by 4 MOTUs last Wednesday04:31
ogra\sh, did he behave while you were teaching him ? :)04:31
SeveasIRC activity dates back quite some time04:31
\shogra: well...yes..but he forgot his homework :)04:32
KyralRIght now I have finals coming up so Ubuntu is kinda on the backburner04:32
KyralHowever in-between semesters I will pick up on my activity again, hopefully finishing FlowDesigner's patches04:32
=== ogra thinks he remembers Kyral from #ubuntu when he was active there himself ...
KyralIn addition I have signed up to write the Install Guide for the DocTeam and I plan to help LaserJock with the packaging Guide04:33
makowhen was this?04:33
Seveasogra, correct04:33
ogramako, way ago ... 04:33
Kyralmako: When was what?04:33
SeveasMy logs only date back to sept 23 and he was active then04:33
Amaranthoh crap, finals04:33
=== Amaranth goes to study
ograi think i stopped being highly active there during my work on hwdb04:33
Seveasbut i'm pretty sure i've seen him far before that too04:33
MagicFabKyral, can you tell us since when you consider you have contributing to Ubuntu ?04:34
ograso mid hoary ...04:34
KyralMy Forums registration date is about May04:34
KyralI believe04:34
=== ogra notes that he starts to measure time in ubuntu releases ... is that worrying ?
Nafalloogra: totally the way to go :-)04:35
SeveasJoin Date: 05-19-200504:35
SeveasTotal Posts: 1,650 (8.21 posts per day)04:35
Seveas(kyral @ forums)04:35
jsgotangcoogra, tsk tsk....04:35
LaserJockogra: better than Debian releases ;-)04:35
KyralMost of my work has been in the Forums Community, specializing in the Desktop Support and Absolute Beginners Talk forums. I have written two helper threads for the ABT Forum, Terminal For Beginners and Window Managers for Beginners04:35
SeveasI'd be happy with Kyral as member given his support work on IRC and the forums04:36
MagicFabSo that's easy to measure. Forum posts.04:36
kjcoleogra: Sounds like the Zork Flathead calendar... warty, hoary, breezy...04:36
KyralI recently helped Brunellus write the Fluxbox wiki page04:36
makohmm.. impressive inregards to the forums.. and a quick glance over implies good qualiity04:36
=== mako is happy with membership
KamionMagicFab: I'm not personally convinced by post count as a measure of contribution though04:36
=== mhz has read those 'helper threads', very illustrative
makoKamion: yes04:36
jsgotangcoMagicFab, quantity doesnt count04:36
MagicFabKyral: what % of your contributions would you say are advocacy andor business related04:37
makoKamion: i always spot check04:37
LaserJockKyral has been lots of help with MOTUScience, he has 2 science package on REVU right now and he is always eager to help04:37
KyralI have also helped people on campus install Ubuntu04:37
=== mhz also read the Fluxbox wiki page and even subscribed. That was a very KISS page
KyralMagicFab: I don't do business, I'm just a simple CS Major04:37
MagicFabjsgotangco: well then don't, I just said it's easy to measure, never mentioned quality (tx. mhz)04:37
KyralThey are very happy with it and were surprised that it was that easy04:38
MagicFabKyral: advocacy ? 04:38
crimsunChris has been active in #ubuntu for 3+ months. I'm fairly active in that channel.04:38
Kamionthe referenced pieces of documentation seem to be pretty clear documentation for beginners, to me04:38
KamionMagicFab: it's not particularly easy to measure, although it is at least visible so we have something to go to04:38
KyralNext semester in combination with the rest of the PNYTeam I hope to deploy Edubuntu into the Potsdam NY school district04:39
ogracrimsun, sure thats not been longer (much longer ?)04:39
Kamion(well, the *useful* thing isn't easy to measure :-))04:39
naliothKyral does help out quite a bit on IRC, and has for some time04:39
ogra++ for edubuntu promotion04:39
crimsunogra: I'm fairly sure it's at the very least 3 months04:39
KyralBut that one is still up in the air as I have to go through one of my professors who has the contacts in the district04:39
mhzKyral: educool!04:40
KyralBut an InstallFest is VERY Likely04:40
Seveascrimsun, that's the very least, it's been 4 months more :)04:40
=== kiko-fud [n=kiko@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Left]
mhzKyral: i hope you join #edubuntu after meeting04:40
KamionI'm happy with Kyral for membership after checking up on some of the references04:40
=== mako nods
Kyralmhz: After the meeting I need to go to class :D04:41
mhzKyral: okis, then as soon as you can :)04:41
ogramhz, he sometimes is there ...04:41
makoalright, i'm running short on time here04:41
Seveasok, next up raphink 04:41
KyralActually I am too04:41
Seveasif elmo has voted 04:41
raphink(WikiPage : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson ; Launchpad : https://launchpad.net/people/raphink )04:41
Seveasso not yet :)04:41
raphinkI'm a 23-year-old french guy, formerly studying aeronautical engineering. I'm involved in packaging for Ubuntu, and a MOTU Wanabee, having already been granted the right to review on the REVU system.04:41
raphinkMy first contact with Ubuntu was with Warty on PPC, although I mostly used Debian Sid during the last year, before switching to Kubuntu with Breezy.04:41
raphinkI spend a lot of time on IRC helping on #kubuntu, #ubuntu, #kubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-fr channels and more, since about mid-. I also contributed a bit to bug fixes and translations on Rosetta.04:41
elmoack for kyral04:42
Seveaselmo, cool04:42
ograwelcome Kyral 04:42
SeveasKyral, welcome!04:42
=== Kyral smiles
Kyralnow, if you will excuse me, I have to run to class :D04:42
kjcoleKyral: Congrats04:42
ogrago to class .... 04:42
KamionKyral: BTW not entirely sure about your strategy for debugging the build-essential/PLF thing - apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true is often a lot quicker04:43
mhzKyral: wlecome edubuntero :D04:43
makowhere is your lp page?04:43
raphinkmine is where Seveas just pointed ;)04:43
raphink(although I have posted it in my "3-line-intro" too)04:44
makosorry, misseed it04:44
dholbachone thing i can say about raphink is that i was impressed that he reviewed packages on REVU and mailed the contributors (although he was no motu yet)... i talked to siretart, to give raphink comment-rights in revu.04:44
raphinkshall I post again?04:44
Seveasraphink, no04:45
ograraphink, we can scroll04:45
makono no,it's fine04:45
raphinkok :)04:45
Seveasraphink, is indeed helpful for REVU04:45
MagicFabraphink: since when ?04:45
makohave long have you been doing the revue work?04:45
raphinkMagicFab: since very recently if that makes you feel comfortable ;)04:46
raphinkmako: I have been granted the review rights only a few days ago04:46
raphinkI have had packages on REVU since about 20 days i'd say04:46
MagicFabraphink: just logging stuff ;)04:46
Seveasraphink, that's a bit too short I'm afraid04:46
raphinkand began to be active on IRC in mid-october04:46
MagicFabraphink: also checking if I should go MOTU04:46
makook, i'd prefer a little longer term contributions in there areas personally04:46
raphinkSeveas: I reckon it's recent contributinos04:47
makonot much, 1-2 more meetings worth04:47
Seveasraphink, see you in 2006 ;)04:47
=== mako shrugs
makothat's not the law04:47
makothat's just my gut feelingg right now04:47
=== MagicFab has to run
Kamionyeah, I'd tend to go with mako, although what I see so far is good04:47
Seveasmako, but I do agree with it04:47
makoif Kamion or elmo disagrees, that's fine too04:47
raphinkbye MagicFab 04:47
makoalright guys04:48
=== juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
makoi'm coming up on a hard end to my time here04:48
Seveashe's done good work, so in a few weeks he'll fly by04:48
juliuxhi all04:48
=== mako nods
raphinkhi juliux 04:48
Seveasthere's 3 more to go04:48
ograso speed up ...04:48
MagicFabI'd like this question to be asked to all members: since when have you been contributing. Just want to understand this better. Will review the logs.04:48
raphinkthere's just the fact that it's a funny situation to be granted review rights without being a member, but if that's alright ;)04:48
=== ogra fears the yellow mako
makoi have 9 more minutes04:49
Seveasok, next up kjcole 04:49
Seveas3 line intro please04:49
=== MagicFab gotta go - cheers to all
Seveascya MagicFab 04:49
=== MagicFab is now known as MagicFab_away
kjcoleI'm a co-author for the Edubuntu Cookbook (WIP), and working at a university exclusively for deaf students, am involved with the Accessibility Team (and trying to involve students and faculty here). I've contributed several bug reports on Launchpad. Last May, I helped run an InstallFest with Ubuntu as the distro of choice. I helped run a local Software Freedom Day event. I'm now the Washington, DC LoCo Team leader/contact (replacing Paul Flint04:49
kjcoles switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.04:49
Seveaskjcole, sounds cool04:50
hno73I can confirm that kjcole has been doing good work on the Accessibility Team 04:50
kjcole(And, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinCole and https://launchpad.net/people/kjcole since those questions come up a lot here.)04:50
ograkjcole, is a active edubuntu contributor ....04:50
Kamionfirst line cut off at "(replacing Paul Flint"04:50
jsgotangcosame here04:50
Seveasyour wikipage is a bit incomplete it seems04:50
makowell, it's not bad, but it's doesn't represent all that you've contributed :004:51
jsgotangcohe's relatively new but he's been focused on stuff04:51
kjcoleint). We've gotten some local businesses switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.04:51
makothere are some quite significant pieces of docs in there04:51
ograthe edubuntu cookbook is *very* significant04:52
Seveasthe freenx howto is a bit redundant :)04:52
=== mhz has seen a lot kjcole around interacting in IRC and AT
jsgotangcoogra, where is it located at this time btw?04:52
ograjsgotangco, you should know :P04:52
jsgotangcoogra, oh right...yes...04:52
kjcoleogra: Elkner and I have set up weekly meetings to work on the Cookbook.  Making good progress.04:52
makokjcole: very excellent04:53
makoany testimonials?04:53
ograi'd like to look over it for the tech POV ... but that doesnt belong here 04:53
jsgotangcowell he did took over the cookbook from me....04:53
jsgotangco(when i started with my new job)04:53
mhzmako: kjcole has been very commited to edubuntu04:54
ograhe was very active in the ltsp BOFs at montreal04:54
=== mako nods
jsgotangcohis experience with AT has been helping the newly formed AT team04:55
=== mako is happy with kjcole as a member for the documentation work alone
makoit's impressive04:55
hno73he makes good contributions in discussions on accessibility04:55
makooh, and acccessibility04:55
mhzwe need kjcole 04:55
Kamionmm, right, sorry I've been quiet, I've been lost in the huge pile of documentation ;-)04:55
SeveasKamion, that's a good sign :)04:55
makoalright guys, 3 minutes for me04:56
ogravote !!04:56
SeveasKamion, elmo any verdict on kjcole ?04:56
Kamionyeah, I'm happy04:56
Seveascool, that's 2 04:56
ograelmo ?04:56
KamionSteve Kowalik04:57
Seveascool, welcome kjcole 04:57
StevenKWiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveKowalik04:57
ograwelcome kjcole 04:57
SeveasStevenK, 04:57
StevenKI'm 24 years old, and have been a Debian developer since August of 2001. I have done 12 or so merges of universe packages, and have been helping on #ubuntu-motu with technical questions as well. My immediate plans for Ubuntu include becoming an MOTU to help with the merge until the UVF, and fixing up xemacs, since at the moment, its a little broken, and unusable for my purposes.04:57
=== mako is familiar with steve's work from debian
kjcoleThanks.  When can I expect the secret decoder ring and X-ray vision glasses in the mail? ;-)04:57
ogradholbach, asked me for:04:57
SeveasStevenK, just a note: you don't have to be a motu to help04:57
ogra<dholbach> I was very glad to see StevenK 1) learning the different workflows in the motu team so quickly and 2) helping other MOTU hopefuls, since he knew part of the story as a DD already"04:57
StevenKSeveas: Of course not.04:58
Kamionkjcole: could you propose yourself for the ubuntumembers team in LP please? https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join04:58
mhzkjcole: edubuntu people rock!04:58
makoStevenK: how long have you been hanging around these parts?04:58
StevenKmako: Not long enough? :-)04:58
ograSeveas, see the dholbach quote04:58
ogra2) especially04:58
StevenKmako: It hasn't been long. A few weeks is rough guess.04:58
makoStevenK: cool, lets put this off for a couple more then if that's alright04:59
makoStevenK: cool to see you around here :)04:59
StevenKCouple more weeks, or meetings?04:59
Seveastwice as many weeks as meeting :)04:59
Seveasbut i'd say 2 meeting should do04:59
makoprobably a couple meetings to be fair05:00
raphinkthat seems mathematically correct Seveas ;)05:00
Kamionshrug, I don't have a problem either way since Steve's been doing lots of Debian work for ages (and thereby effectively contributing to Ubuntu if you want to look at it that way)05:00
=== mako nods
Kamionbut if we want to defer for fairness to other folks, that's fine too05:00
makowe have said we'd taken debian work as a form of indirect contribution05:00
mhzKamion: very important point05:00
ograelmo, any opinion ? 05:01
=== mako has not objections to steve either
Kamionthe only caveat to the above is making sure people know the ropes and are happy to stay around05:01
elmoI don't mind either05:01
Kamion(trying to avoid Debian's problem of lots of inactive people, really)05:01
KamionSteve's been in Debian for years though so I figure he has some degree of staying power05:02
ograwas that a vote ? 05:02
makoStevenK: does that sound OK?05:02
StevenKUm, there was a conclusion reached?05:02
makoStevenK: you gonna stay around?05:02
Kamionthat was the least conclusive vote EVAH05:02
makoStevenK: feel like you know the ropes?05:02
StevenKmako: I'm planning on sticking around, anyway.05:03
makoStevenK: if you're alright committing now, i think we're happy approving you for membership05:03
StevenKmako: I'm getting there quickly.05:03
ogramako, he helps and teaches MOTU hopefulls, seems he knows the ropes05:03
makoi am overdue alright05:03
Kamionright, StevenK++ since we know and trust him from elsewhere05:03
makowas ther eone more05:03
Seveasyes, zyga05:03
Kamionazeem was the last05:03
StevenKHell, I wrote a package checker. That implies I know packaging. :-)05:03
Kamionoh, zyga05:03
makotwo more than!05:03
zygaZygmunt Krynicki 23, freelance programmer05:03
makoStevenK: i'm familiarr with it05:03
Kamionelmo: I'll take "I don't mind either" as a yes05:04
zygaI've been here befor a month ago, since then I've been active in -desktop team05:04
StevenKThanks for the approval, though.05:04
ograso may we say welcome StevenK ?05:04
elmoKamion: ok ;)05:04
=== bhuvan [n=bhuvan@] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
zygaI've got an (almost) fully impolemented spec, for command-not-found, together with mvo's help05:04
Seveaswelcome StevenK then :)05:04
mhzStevenK: welcome!05:04
makoalright guys, im two hours late to work already05:04
makoi am going to run05:04
Seveasmako, :(05:04
StevenKI might run, too.05:04
zygaI'm also working with pitti on .desktop files (mainly patches to code on my side)05:04
Kamionmako: seeya05:05
StevenKConsidering it's 3am.05:05
Seveasmako, have fun at work, seeya next time05:05
zygaI've been active on the translation arena05:05
makoplease go ahead05:05
zygaas well as local (ubuntu.pl) arena05:05
Kamionok, sorry everyone, but we just became inquorate - we can go through people and mako can catch up later to complete approvals05:05
zygaI still need to devote more time for motu ruby 05:05
Seveasmako, I'll e-mail you the relevant log05:05
Seveas(for zyga/azeem)05:05
makoif you guys come to consensus, i give mhz permission to install a bot to pester me ever 5 minutes until i answer one way or another05:05
zygaI guess that's it, the rest is on my profile page05:05
kjcoleAs it is 11:00 AM, and I'm theoretically working for my office... I'm outa here.  Thanks again.  TTYL.05:06
=== StevenK [n=stevenk@] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Sleeeeep!"]
zygaI'm happy to answer any questions you may have05:06
Kamionmvo: around?05:06
ograciao kjcole 05:06
azeemwe can just defer me to the next meeting, no problem05:06
mvoKamion: yes05:06
Seveasazeem, rock05:06
mhzmako: mean me or mdz?05:06
Kamionmvo: opinions on zyga?05:06
mako-pumpkinmhz: you05:06
Seveas.desktop + gettext sounds cool05:06
mvoI'm happy with zyga contribution, he did a lot of good work on cmd-not-found spec05:07
mvo+1 from me on membership05:07
ograhe pushes me to inally make hwdb gettextable, so ++ from here ...05:07
zygaoh right :)05:07
zygaI need to send you that :)05:07
mvovery active on various fronts :)05:07
zygaI keep forgetting ;P05:07
ograme too, me too05:08
zygaoh no actually, you need that bzr branch, right?05:08
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ograbut its on my todo for this week05:08
KamionThis idea touches nearly every single package from universe and some packages in main. 05:09
Kamion^-- concerning ...05:09
Kamion(we generally try REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD to avoid touching the whole of universe for anything at all)05:09
zygaKamion: that's for the future :-)05:10
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zakamehi pitti 05:10
Kamionzyga: just logging something I perceive as insanity now rather than later :)05:10
zygaKamion: it might be implemented for dapper+1 as a test run. I won't have enough time to finish it before 05:10
Kamionbut you seem to be contributing all over the place anyway and you've been around for some time, so I have no problem saying yes05:10
zygaKamion: and it needs some good understanding of how updated langpacks work out05:10
pittizyga> So far I worked with Zygmunt with translation-related things; we discussed some improvements and some ideas about enhancing langpacks/rosetta05:11
pittiand I was really impressed by his work for LangpacksLocales05:11
pittihe provided patches, tests, etc.05:11
pittiI would be glad to see him as a member05:11
Kamionok, works for me, thanks05:12
elmoyeah, ack05:12
pitti(sorry for being late; I'm still not used to the rotation)05:12
Kamionpitti: you and me both, I think it's more shuffling than rotation05:12
Seveascool, mhz, start the mako-ping-bot ;)05:12
KamionMichael Banck05:12
SeveasKamion, which brings us to the last item05:13
Kamionanother long-time Debian guy05:13
Seveasazeem didn't mind being defered05:13
Kamionok, that would be simpler05:13
=== zyga lost one line and was kept waiting for something already there :)
Seveasso next is scheduling05:13
jsgotangcoi gotta sleep cacth you guys later05:13
SeveasI received a total of zero seggestions on a new CC schedule05:13
pitticongrats, zyga, and welcome05:13
zygathanks :))05:14
Seveaswhich is a bit less than expected :)05:14
KamionSeveas: and again we've missed mako, d'oh05:14
SeveasKamion, shall I just do this via E-mail for the next meeting and pester people to reply?05:14
Kamionpersonally I have no idea what mako's schedule is nowadays (since he isn't working for Canonical any more)05:14
elmowe should set up a list, and organize it by email05:14
ogralets do the scheduling at the beginning next time, so he can intervene05:14
KamionSeveas: I think mailing the four of us would be moderately useful, yes, and what elmo said about a list05:14
Kamionshall I poke jdub about that?05:15
elmonah, mail RT05:15
elmoI can do that these days05:15
Seveasubuntu-cc@lists I guess?05:15
Seveasor cummonity-council@lists05:15
=== Kamion was thinking community-council@ or ubuntu-council@
Seveaswell, with the o and u swapped05:15
SeveasI'd prefer community-council@05:16
elmoI don't much care; I'll create whichever I'm told05:16
elmobut anyway, since we can't organize the schedule now - is there anything else?05:16
=== Seveas hands elmo the hammer
mhzSeveas: was mako serious on the botting issue?05:17
elmoKamion: good on your side?05:17
elmomhz: no05:17
=== mhz can really be a pian in the neck if asked to :D
Kamionoh, should community-council@ be publicly archived?05:17
SeveasI'd say yes05:17
Kamionpersonally I'm thinking not because we do sometimes need the facility for private discussion05:17
elmoKamion: I'd guess not - anything substantive that's public should be done in a more public forum05:18
Seveaswill it be 'open for the public' to subscribe?05:18
KamionSeveas: no05:18
Kamionit's more along the lines of a contact address05:18
Seveasonly the 4 of you?05:18
Kamionit should be possible for people to mail "the community council"05:18
=== mhz wanted to have over 1000 mails
Seveasok, then I'll mention it as a contact address in the report05:19
ogramhz, you dont want that ...05:19
ograthere are days in have twice as much ...05:19
mhzogra: I love to 'delte' emais from inbox05:19
Kamionand it should probably be possible for people to mail it with roughly the same expectation of privacy as they have from mailing a person (i.e. some)05:19
ogra(normally its aroud 3-400)05:19
SeveasKamion, can I/ogra/dholbach/smurf as active CC-meeting-followers subscribe or is it strictly the four of you?05:19
elmoSeveas: it's a contact address for the CC05:20
Kamionelmo: RTed05:20
elmoso it should be limited to the CC05:20
elmoKamion: thanks05:20
KamionSeveas: as elmo says, wider discussion can be held on other fora (e.g. sounder@) or people can be cc'ed for input on specific issues05:21
jsgotangcosounder is good05:21
SeveasOK, then that'll be all I guess05:21
SeveasI'm going to make and eat dinner and then write the summary for {devel,sounder,cc,fridge}05:21
KamionI don't mean to be exclusionary here, I don't expect there will be lots of stuff there, but a contact address is getting increasingly required05:21
Kamionand in cases of dispute resolution other people may very well want it to be limited-circulation05:22
Kamionok, I think we're done, thanks all05:22
Seveaslater all05:22
Seveas2 weeks from now, at a time to be discussed :)05:23
=== robotgeek will be there
mhzsee ya all05:23
robotgeekSeveas: do i need to be a member to add to the agenda?05:23
Seveasrobotgeek, no, what do you want to add?05:24
robotgeekSeveas: the whole forum/wiki. i'll write up a summary, and post it so that people can get a fair idea. since, hopefully the forum mods will be tehre next time05:24
robotgeeknot specific to my case, tho05:25
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nalioththere are forums issues that affect the whole community05:26
ograbut hard to discuss if the people in charge never show up05:27
mhz_lunchogra: so, maybe now jdub will answer my emails :D05:28
robotgeekogra: i'm more concerned with the 'splitting' up of the community, with double efforts here and there05:28
robotgeekit's a nasty issue, but it will need to be solved sooner or later05:29
ograrobotgeek, i'm concerned about that since warty ... but it doesnt help...05:29
zakameer we don't want either sides to feel alienated :/05:29
ograi.e. you are either a forum person or you are a mailing list person ... i'm the latter and i dont know whats going on in the forums ...05:30
jsgotangcosame here05:30
ograothers wont know whts up with the mailing lists05:30
jsgotangcoand the ml is more unmoderated05:30
robotgeeki think the forums are a part of the community. i mostly do irc/wiki, but do post on the forums sometimes. However, stuff claiming to be "this is the real ubuntu/guide/whatever" don't really contribute to ubuntu as a whole05:31
azeemogra: bidirect gateways to the rescue!05:31
ograyes, but there are more active devs at least taking a glance 05:31
ograazeem, we have them ...05:31
azeemyeah, I know05:31
robotgeekanyways, looks like i've rambled enough :)05:32
Seveasrobotgeek, please don't edit the CC agenda today though, I'm making my weekly edit05:32
robotgeekSeveas: no, i just added that link as someone asked me to do so. I havent (won't) touch it further. 05:33
naliothy'all be safe05:36
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robotgeekwell, a fruitful first meeting for me. later all05:37
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zakamebye all, and peace! :)05:38
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ubuntugeek_meeting over?05:38
Kamionit started two-and-a-half hours ago, just finished05:39
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ubuntugeek_i'll email the people who need to hear what i gotta say then05:40
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mhz_lunchmako: you'll have to vote update on some members :)05:42
makoi don't have time to takea  look at that right now05:42
Seveasubuntugeek_, can you cc me in that mail please05:43
SeveasI'm writing the summary of that meeting and would ike to include it05:44
ubuntugeek_i can basically state it here if you want05:44
Seveasthat's good too05:45
ubuntugeek_well i am tired of this bullshit surrounding the forums and the ubuntu community and the community council.. I am seriously considering terminating the project or removing the official status it has. 05:47
ubuntugeek_thats all i have to say right now i'll make my decision known05:48
jsgotangcobullshit with the council?05:48
Seveasubuntugeek_, im very sorry to hear that05:49
ubuntugeek_i find it hard to accept the CC an make any rules or decisions when they dont even visit the forums05:49
jsgotangcodo you mean the CC doesn't apply very well to a forums setting?05:50
ubuntugeek_well i have yet to see that anyone actually understands how the forums work let alone care to find out.. from the previous cc meetings i have been in.05:50
ubuntugeek_jsgotangco: yes 100% correct05:50
Kamionthis week's issue seemed pretty independent of what setting it happened to be in05:50
azeemubuntugeek_: this is why the CC invited the forum admins to join their meeting for the next time05:50
Seveasubuntugeek_, you're right with that, but this (the issue on the agenda now) is a dispute between a fw community members05:50
Seveasthat it takes place on the forums is not the essence05:51
Kamioni.e. it was claimed that somebody in charge attempted to stop people from distributing changes to a GPLed work on the grounds that it was illegal05:51
ubuntugeek_i look at the CC agenda I see.. "We already had a discussion about locking or removing discussion. Apparently that still happens. IMHO this needs to be addressed, among other problems these threads are an example of. -- MatthiasUrlichs"05:51
Seveasdeleting posts and threads is however frowned upon, but no one wanted to judge that without you and other admins being able to defend it05:51
Kamionubuntugeek_: dude that's just a (relatively) random person's comment on the agenda, it's not a CC opinion05:51
Kamionanyone can edit that agenda, it's a wiki page05:52
jsgotangcoi'm pretty confident people in the CC or even in this channel go to the forum every while05:52
Seveasubuntugeek_, please look at the agenda again in 10 minutes after I did the weekly update to reflect the current status05:52
ubuntugeek_seveas: ok.. please put on agenda "the future of the forums" for dicussion at the next meeting then05:53
Kamionthe main problem from our side is that most of the times that people ask for an opinion on some issue, only the aggrieved party shows up05:53
Seveasubuntugeek_, will do05:53
Seveasubuntugeek_, the date and time of the next meeting are not yet known, I'll keep you pasted05:53
ubuntugeek_well its hard to show up well its off time for me or when i work..05:53
Kamionwhich puts us in a very difficult position; I for one don't want to make a decision based on hearing only one side of the issue05:53
ubuntugeek_and when i do show its a waste anyways no one gives a shit what i say05:53
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Kamionin this case references were given and they seemed to be pretty clear05:53
Kamionbut we refrained from getting into anything about locking/deleting posts05:54
azeemKamion: so assuming that agenda item changes are emailed to the CC members, couldn't one of you (or a secretary) try to invite the other parties to the netx meeting as well?05:54
Seveasubuntugeek_, the CC does care about what you say, as much as they care about any other member 05:54
ubuntugeek_Seveas: I dont agree with that 100% but ok..05:55
Kamionazeem: yes, we need to get better at that; I only actually remembered to subscribe to that wiki page today so ...05:55
Seveasthere are others that may put disrespecting things on the agenda, but the agenda does not reflect the opinion of the CC05:55
Seveasthe log of the meetings does05:55
ubuntugeek_Ok I said what i need to say, i need to get back to work.. thanks05:55
Seveasubuntugeek_, thanks for showing up05:55
\shwell...locking and deleting posts on german forums means normally, that the maintainer is responsible for every post on maintained forum website...which means he can be charged even if the maintainer didn't write this post05:55
Kamionto be perfectly honest it seems more like you don't care what we say - we've ended up in the position of being an arbitration body for your debates, but you keep saying our opinions aren't valid05:56
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Kamionwhich is very difficult to deal with05:56
azeem\sh: you mean from a legal POV?05:56
\shazeem: yes..05:56
azeemi.e. if somebody external sues05:56
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Kyralcan't we please just get along....05:56
Kamionit would really help if we could somehow agree that some things are social issues independent of the setting05:56
KamionI'd far rather be dealing with social issues that aren't intrinsically connected to the setting they're in anyway05:57
Kamionand ultimately, most disagreements between people are just that - people are people regardless of whether they're on a mailing list, on IRC, or in a web forum05:57
ubuntugeek_Kamion: until the forums are understood 100% and we can agree its going to be a biased decision.. 05:57
Kamionmostly they're decisions about people, not about forums05:58
azeemubuntugeek_: is there documentation somewhere the CC members should read up on?05:58
=== Kyral sighs
=== jsgotangco curls to bed
KyralI hate this fight I really do. As a Member and as an active Forums user this is a very distressing fight05:58
ubuntugeek_azeem: just participate in the forums thats the best way to understand05:59
ubuntugeek_Kyral: agreed.. 05:59
Kyralubuntugeek_: I do participate and I don't see the problem05:59
Kamionwould it be valid for us to say that you can't understand Ubuntu unless you participate in the mailing lists?05:59
KamionI don't think so05:59
Kyraland I think that Kass and AB are in the wrong on this one05:59
Kamionbut it has a similar chain of reasoning05:59
ubuntugeek_Kyral: and maybe they are.. I am talking about a bigger issue here05:59
Kyralwhich is?06:00
Kamion(since all Ubuntu development is on mailing lists or in IRC, or occasionally at conferences)06:00
SeveasKyral, we're not judging right and wrong now06:00
Kyralsorry, but I seem to have to deal with this everyday and its getting VERY tiring06:00
ubuntugeek_The issue is, the CC makes decisions that the forums should follow when they dont understand how the forums work 100%06:00
ubuntugeek_Kyral: yeah me too.. its getting real old06:01
Kyralwhat pisses me off is talk of separation of the Forums from Ubuntu06:01
\shubuntugeek: well...reading in the last couple of weeks the german forums...I have really problems with the mostly anonymous people there..some are trolling, some are really serious and annoyed about the trolls...and some are really dangerous with their advises...which tells me, that I will avoid writing and reading to forums...with exceptions every now and then06:01
Kamionbut it's *not* about how the forums work, in the vast majority of cases06:01
ubuntugeek_Kyral: well pisses me off too.. but ya know what06:01
KyralDon't say it06:02
\shubuntugeek: I don't think it different from other forums 06:02
Kamionunless there is a magic potion you give everyone when they join up for the forums that makes them a different kind of person06:02
Kamionin which case, where's mine? :-)06:02
ubuntugeek_Ok then .. someone tell me why i should continue to provide the forums to the ubuntu community?06:02
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ubuntugeek_and put up this the bullshit :)06:02
mjg59ubuntugeek_: If you don't want to provide something, then don't. 06:02
mjg59This is a community of volunteers. You can't be compelled to do something you don't want to do.06:03
Kamion(ahem, Canonical helps, and AIUI has repeatedly offered to help more)06:03
\shKamion: signed keys...trackable names...no anons anymore...if everyone will post with their names and personallity attached, people are changing...or the userbase will just decrease06:03
Kamionultimately though it ought to be about your users06:03
Kyralubuntugeek_: You wouldn't06:03
Kyralyou KNOW how crucial a support base the Forums are06:03
ubuntugeek_Kyral: Yeah I do.. it holds a large population base of this distro..06:04
Kyraland you KNOW it will cripple Ubuntu06:04
ubuntugeek_Kyral: Yes I do06:04
SeveasKyral, it won't take long until others step up06:04
Seveasbut I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave06:05
\shKyral: well...no...there will be another forum setup etc. 06:05
ubuntugeek_Seveas: So you saying I shoukld shut it down?06:05
Seveasubuntugeek_, well, no06:05
ubuntugeek_Seveas: Seems like it to me06:05
Kamion17:05 < Seveas> but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave06:05
Seveasyou're doing a great job and no one can prevent that rhere will be disputes from time to time06:05
Kyralubuntugeek_: if you don't want to run it give it over to Canonical06:05
\shKyral: this is not a solution06:06
Seveasbut please keep in mind that the CC does not want to impose anything, only to resolve these disputes06:06
KamionKyral: for the record Canonical has consistently made an effort not to be trying to take it over from Ryan; we feel that would be unhelpful and antagonistic06:06
Kyral\sh: Worse case scenario06:06
ubuntugeek_Kamion: That is correct06:06
Kyralie, UbuntuGeek doesn't want to do it anymore06:06
\shKyral: again...social issues can't be solved technically06:06
Kyral\sh: This is why I am not a Business Major :P06:06
Seveasubuntugeek_, however good you are and whatever the effort, there'll always be people who disagree, such is life06:06
ubuntugeek_Kamion: And I respect that06:06
Amaranth'social issues can't be solved technically' <--more people need to understand this :)06:07
ubuntugeek_Seveas: true that..06:07
\shKyral: and closing down a forum or a person is leaving...is more a technical thing then social06:07
KamionKyral: we've offered funding to help out, and some of that's been accepted06:07
Kyral\sh: I know, suddenly my head is in "Worst Case Scenario" mode06:07
ubuntugeek_For the record I would never just shut it down.. 06:07
AmaranthStraight question in need of a straight answer: Does the CoC apply to the forums?06:07
Seveasubuntugeek_, so please stay around and try to put up with the bullshit some users give you. And please try to keep up with the CC who don't know how a forum works06:08
SeveasAmaranth, yes06:08
\shubuntugeek: no one said this :) I just explained, that this is not a solution06:08
AmaranthSeveas: Was sort of asking ubuntugeek. :)06:08
SeveasAmaranth, ah06:08
Kamionwe take quite a lot of flak in the development community too, for one thing or another; you put up with it by looking past it to see that you're generally making the world better06:08
ubuntugeek_Amaranth: yes06:08
Amaranthubuntugeek: Are there any consequences for repeated violations by regular members?06:09
ubuntugeek_Seveas: Ok but I would like to see some more paricipation from the CC so they can clearly understand the issues the forums have06:09
\shAmaranth: to the ubuntu members, i don't think a software can sign the CoC 06:09
Kamionand also by trying not to rub people the wrong way intentionally06:09
Seveasubuntugeek_, the CC are all very active developers and I'm afraid they don't have enough time to visit the forums regularly06:09
ubuntugeek_Seveas: Which is a huge problem06:09
Kamionubuntugeek_: I've tried from time to time, but we are all incredibly busy in our own right (sabdfl obviously, elmo's the lead Canonical sysadmin, I'm the installer guy and do lots of other work, mako has another job)06:10
Seveasthat said, what are the most interesting parts of the forum from the view of the CC?06:10
SeveasI could try to make some time to visit those06:10
Seveas(note: I'm not a CC member, but active contributor to the meetings)06:10
ubuntugeek_Seveas: Well the issues at hand are in community chat and the backyard.. those seem to flare up06:10
AmaranthAre all the forum mods ubuntu members? Should they be?06:10
Kamionhowever, with the help of the forums admin team when disagreements are brought to us, perhaps we could factor out the parts of the issue that are specific to the forums and consider the rest06:10
ubuntugeek_Seveas: sometimes having input from a cc member on the issues would be nice06:10
Kamionubuntugeek_: the issue at hand today was neither, AIUI?06:11
SeveasKamion, well, the forum was dragged in with it by users, but it basically was a dispute that could have happened anywhere06:11
ubuntugeek_Amaranth: the three admins are not sure of the others06:11
Seveasapart from the deletion of posts06:11
Seveas(no judgement there)06:11
Kamionright, I assumed it was in a development section from the content, although I didn't actually check06:11
Kamionbecause it didn't seem relevant where it was06:12
ubuntugeek_Seveas: Right but sometimes a post does need to be edited06:12
AmaranthI think all the mods should have to be members.06:12
ubuntugeek_Seveas: and not all people are going to like this06:12
Kamionthere's a bit of a difference between editing and deleting bug reports06:12
Seveasubuntugeek_, I understand that, that's why i said (no judgement there)06:12
\shubuntugeek_: why? I mean elmo or jdub don't edit the mails on ubuntu-users or ubuntu-devel ml...06:12
Kamionbug reports are often pretty hostile, but it's really important not to get into a mindset where you consider them personal attacks06:12
SeveasIt's too easy to flame on a public medium and when the medium gets big it'll attract more badness06:13
Seveason a forum (contrary to mailinglist and usenet) you can DO something about that06:13
ubuntugeek_Seveas: I agree 100% and forums are very subject to flames.. which atrract more flames.. sometimes the editing needs to be done06:13
Seveassame for IRC06:13
SeveasI have been kicking more people in #ubuntu lately than half a year ago 06:14
Seveasand lots of people start yelling in private chats06:14
Kamion#931 on http://apqi.com/ubuntu/Automatix%20(Automated%20GUI%20installation%20script)%20-%20Page%2024%20-%20Ubuntu%20Forums.htm is really mild as bug reports go and yet the response was "Unless the tone of this post is changed, and lame accusations like ... removed, it will be ignored and removed from this thread again"06:14
Kamion(I realise this particular one wasn't deleted though)06:14
ubuntugeek_Seveas: And thats the same issue we have on the forums.. we dont like to ban people sometimes it needs to happen.. with 57,000+ users its going to happen06:14
\shSeveas: but you don't k-line the person or you can't edit his statement when it's said...06:14
SeveasKamion, you should see this bugreport in the context of everything surrounding automatix06:15
KamionSeveas: you should see some of my bug reports06:15
Seveasthe thing is controversial and attracts lots of heat06:15
Kamionso is Debian :-)06:15
SeveasKamion, I read bugzilla :)06:15
Seveasbtw: has my bug closing hitrate improved already? :)06:15
Kamionit's getting there ;)06:16
ubuntugeek_Ok I need to get back to work.. thanks for listening to my comments06:16
KamionI check them all though06:16
Seveasubuntugeek_, thanks for speaking up06:16
Kamionyep, thanks, I do appreciate it06:16
SeveasI'll still put you on the agenda for next week06:16
Kamiondisagreeing sometimes doesn't mean we aren't listening, btw :-)06:16
Amaranth"well as it works from here on, u will need to send me the edited form and upon my approval, u can release it under a different name which does not have the word "automatix" in it. U also need to acknowledge that its based on automatix and abstain from using words like safer/better/worse etc.."06:17
Amaranththat isn't the GPL....06:17
Seveasbueno, CC agenda edited06:19
SeveasKamion, one more thing: Seb Payne told me he'll not be applying for membership again, he's short of time06:25
KamionSeveas: ok, thanks06:25
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Belutzi miss the meeting07:58
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