[01:47] <Seveas> arzajac, so you can make it after all :)
[02:49] <zakame> hi bhuvan :)
[02:54] <Seveas> ha 6 minutes to zero-hour
[02:54] <Seveas> Back home just in time
[02:56] <hno73> mhz: sure
[02:56] <jjesse> i'll be back for probablly the end of the meeting, gotta switch work locations
[02:56] <mhz> hno73: thx
[02:57] <zyga> when is the CC meeting?
[02:57] <zyga> in 6 minutes?
[02:57] <Seveas> 3 minutes
[02:57] <nalioth> in about 4 minutes
[02:57] <zyga> not at 22:00?
[02:57] <Seveas> no
[02:57] <zyga> k, glad I've joined earlier ;] 
[02:57] <zyga> heh
[02:57] <zakame> er 2 minutes from now
[02:58] <Kyral> whew in the nick of time
[02:58] <Seveas> zyga, make sure your wikipage is up to date
[02:58] <Seveas> i've seen you busy in #ubuntu-? but that work is not listed
[02:58] <zyga> Seveas: I made minor updates
[02:58] <zyga> Seveas: just below the 'Update:' 
[02:59] <MagicFab> Gd'morning
[02:59] <Seveas> MagicFab, have you been working with mako on your wikipage?
[02:59] <MagicFab> Seveas: no, alone ;) asked mako for feedback but didn't get any
[02:59] <MagicFab> (by email)
[02:59] <Seveas> ah
[02:59] <Kamion> mako: you didn't vote on mhz at the last meeting; are you ready to do so?
[03:00] <Kamion> (thus contrary to what the agenda claims, mhz wasn't approved
[03:00] <Kamion> )
[03:00] <ogra> is he around ? 
[03:00] <Seveas> *DING* 14:00 UTC
[03:00] <ogra> any sabdfl in sight ? 
[03:00] <Kamion> elmo: around?
[03:01] <Seveas> mako, LaserJock, raphink, Kyral, kjcole *ping*
[03:01] <raphink> hello everybody :)
[03:01] <Kyral> I'm here
[03:02] <kiko> hey there
[03:02] <LaserJock> here
[03:02] <raphink> Seveas: hehe i'm here :)
[03:02] <Seveas> mhz, smurf 
[03:02] <Seveas> *ping* too
[03:02] <Seveas> We'll have to wait for the CC members to show up
[03:03] <mhz> in the meantime, Greeting Ubunteros :)
[03:03] <kiko> greetings
[03:03] <Seveas> hi
[03:03] <MarioMeyer_> hi :P
[03:03] <Madpilot> morning, everyone
[03:03] <Kamion> s
[03:03] <robotgeek> morning...coffee time
[03:04] <StevenK> Speaking of morning, it's neatly 1am here. :-/
[03:04] <Seveas> Kamion, aren't they on speed dial yet? :)
[03:04] <mhz> StevenK: thx for being here, then
[03:04] <ogra> Kamion, sabdfl just mailed me, he seems awake and in reach of a PC
[03:04] <Madpilot> 0600 here :(
[03:04] <kjcole> No rest for the wicked.
[03:04] <LaserJock> Madpilot: me too
[03:04] <ogra> but i bet he forgot about the early time today
[03:04] <MagicFab> I invited Corey Burger and Daniel RObitaille but it's 6AM for them :(
[03:04] <mhz> Madpilot: very early, thx
[03:04] <Kamion> elmo's coming
[03:05] <StevenK> mhz: I went to bed early, and my wife woke me at 0000
[03:05] <mhz> MagicFab: i'm glad you're here
[03:05] <jsgotangco> hehe
[03:05] <kjcole> New Ubunutu project: Tivo for #ubuntu-meetings.  (Better than log files.) ;-)
[03:05] <Seveas> it's conveniently 15:00 here :)
[03:05] <mhz> StevenK: hehehe, that happens all the time if you have kids too
[03:05] <elmo> ok, here
[03:05] <Seveas> hi elmo 
[03:06] <\sh> morning gentlemen
[03:06] <Kamion> elmo: do you know where Mark is at the moment?
[03:06] <raphink> hi \sh
[03:06] <mhz> morning \sh 
[03:06] <elmo> somewhere in the US
[03:06] <elmo> he probably won't be up for a couple of hours
[03:06] <zakame> hi mhz :D
[03:07] <mhz> zakame: helloz
[03:07] <kjcole> Hullo, all.
[03:07] <elmo> unless we snagged mako, quorum might be hard
[03:07] <Kamion> apparently he just sent e-mail, I'll try his mobile
[03:07] <mhz> kjcole: is your page updated
[03:07] <zakame> elmo: thanks for adding me to the keyring today :-)
[03:07] <zakame> evening \sh :)
[03:07] <Kamion> sabdfl is being summoned
[03:08] <Seveas> hehe
[03:08] <Seveas> hi jbailey 
[03:08] <kjcole> mhz: Not recently...  
[03:08] <mhz> kjcole: well, it looked good to me :)
[03:08] <jbailey> Seveas: hi
[03:09] <jsgotangco> summoning powers
[03:10] <Kyral> hehe
[03:10] <zakame> mhz: wow
[03:11] <dholbach> mhz: dunno, if 9 are enough, you might have to tap all your artifacts too
[03:11] <mhz> lol!
[03:11] <Kyral> dangit dholbach beat me to it :D
[03:11] <Kamion> s/summoned/hunted/ apparently
[03:11] <mhz> Seveas: boooh, you killed out entertainment
[03:11] <mhz> :)
[03:11] <jsgotangco> good luck on summoning sabdfl in th snow
[03:11] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:11] <Kamion> can we sort out meeting times in the meantime maybe?
[03:11] <Seveas> mhz, bofh.ntk.net
[03:12] <Seveas> hours of entertainment
[03:12] <Kamion> although we don't have mako which makes that awkward
[03:12] <kjcole> jsgotangco: Did he get caught in it?
[03:12] <Seveas> http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html <-- that one i mean
[03:12] <mako> i'm here
[03:12] <mhz> Seveas: jsgotangco could tell us about mobile entretainment for our Sharp Zaurus, maybe?
[03:12] <Seveas> greetings, mako
[03:13] <jsgotangco> mako!!!!
[03:13] <Kamion> mako: aha, we can start then
[03:13] <Seveas> we could start now if sabdfl is evasive, let's do the naming round
[03:13] <mako> sorry i'm a bit late.. i need like 1 minute to get organized
[03:13] <zakame> hello mako :)
[03:13] <kjcole> Hi, mako.  (And thanks -- I think -- for the speedy order on the CD's.  Or thank whoever's responsible.)
[03:13] <kiko> mako!
[03:14] <Seveas> arzajac, there?
[03:14] <Seveas> ubuntugeek, there?
[03:14] <Kamion> sabdfl's on his way
[03:15] <zyga> (everyone needs to say their name?)
[03:15] <Kamion> the ubuntite/ubuntero thing is first on the agenda
[03:16] <Kamion> so to alleviate confusion from those bug reports, Ubuntite/Ubuntero simply means that you've signed the code of conduct, and conceptually it should be a prerequisite for membership/maintainership (although I'm not sure if Launchpad actually implements that)
[03:16] <jsgotangco> it does
[03:16] <Kamion> I'm also not sure that it really matters that much what it's called, or why the CC needs to decide on it :-)
[03:16] <elmo> Kamion: it doesn't
[03:17] <Seveas> ok, but which one is the official word for person-who-signed-the-coc-and-pledged-allegiance-to-ubuntu :)
[03:17] <Kamion> kiko: I assumed sabdfl had renamed it to Ubuntero, which would kind of make it official
[03:17] <Kamion> did somebody explicitly ask for it to be brought up here?
[03:17] <Seveas> yes, kiko
[03:17] <mako> it was originally ubuntite
[03:17] <elmo> Kamion: implement it as a prerequisite for membership, I mean.  the only thing signed_CoC enforces is ubuntu.com email
[03:17] <Kamion> Seveas: I'm asking kiko if somebody asked him
[03:17] <kiko> well
[03:17] <kiko> yes
[03:17] <kiko> it's been asked on a number of occasions
[03:17] <mako> that is what was written in the process documents
[03:17] <kiko> we need to change the wording in Launchpad
[03:17] <Seveas> Kamion, ah, sorry /me grabs glasses
[03:18] <kiko> I just want to make sure that this is the definitive answer
[03:18] <mako> but if sabdfl has very strong feelings, that's fine
[03:18] <Kamion> it was changed from Ubuntite to Ubuntero in Launchpad
[03:18] <mako> i saw that
[03:18] <mako> i was a little a confused.. 
[03:18] <kiko> (I personally think Ubuntu member is a better name but ignore my opinions :-P)
[03:18] <kiko> now
[03:18] <kiko> there are places that still say Ubuntite
[03:18] <Seveas> kiko, Ubuntero != member
[03:18] <ogra> its pre-membership
[03:18] <kiko> the reason this happened is because it was hacked in by a certain person
[03:18] <Kamion> why not just stick a tooltip/link on it explaining what it means? even I think the wording is confusing
[03:18] <kiko> okay
[03:18] <kiko> we will
[03:18] <kiko> however
[03:19] <Kamion> but that's a launchpad development issue
[03:19] <kiko> I want someone to:
[03:19] <kiko> a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change
[03:19] <kiko> b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault
[03:19] <kiko> we all know how mark is with email and requests
[03:19] <Kamion> in this case it wasn't at all the CC's fault, but OK :-)
[03:20] <kiko> and I want to make sure we don't drop the ball so often
[03:20] <mako> kiko: mark made this change right?
[03:20] <kiko> the fact that is says ubuntite and ubuntero in places makes me want to DIE
[03:20] <Kamion> we're kind of at the point where we need a CC mailing list
[03:20] <Kamion> (i.e. the four of us)
[03:20] <ogra> kiko, we really dont wnat that you want to die 
[03:20] <kiko> that is all on that topic from me :)
[03:21] <elmo> kiko: dude, this change was made directly in launchpad with no consultation with the CC - what exactly do you expect from us here?
[03:21] <kiko> well
[03:21] <kiko> I'll put it this way
[03:21] <mako> kiko: it was *always* ubuntite and not particularly controversial AFAIK..
[03:21] <elmo> kiko: we've got about as much chance of fixing this as you have of demanding sabdfl always add tests when he commits 
[03:21] <mako> kiko: now, the alternative is not particularly controversial either
[03:21] <ogra> mako, until sabdfl changed it :)
[03:21] <mako> it's just a name and i, for one, am not going to fight anyone over it
[03:21] <ogra> there he is
[03:21] <sabdfl> morning all
[03:21] <Seveas> there's the guilty one!
[03:22] <kiko> lol. well, people here seem to know something about the word "ubuntero", while the first time I saw this was in a launchpad landing. :)
[03:22] <sabdfl> sorry to be late, didn't hear about it till breakfast
[03:22] <Kamion>  Definitive name for Ubuntero: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/5317 (ChristianReis)
[03:22] <Kamion> sabdfl: ^-- point on agenda
[03:22] <jsgotangco> hehe
[03:22] <Kamion> kiko: we only know it because (a) it randomly came up in random people's blogs like a year and a half ago, (b) we all saw it in launchpad
[03:22] <Kamion> 14:19 < kiko> I want someone to:
[03:22] <Kamion> 14:19 < kiko> a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change
[03:22] <Kamion> 14:19 < kiko> b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault
[03:23] <mako> sabdfl: it was originally ubuntite.. LP code seems to now call it ubuntero in some but not all places
[03:23] <kiko> this is a bit confusing to me but okay. I thought the CC would deliberate on this sort of naming changes.
[03:23] <Kamion> sabdfl: is that something the CC can/should do? obviously we can hardly stop you from making changes in launchpad :-)
[03:23] <Seveas> Kamion, duct tape?
[03:23] <mako> i don't think anyone is going to fight over the name
[03:23] <mako> i'm not at least
[03:23] <sabdfl> ok
[03:23] <kiko> I'm not either
[03:23] <MagicFab> Kamion: articfacts ?
[03:23] <kjcole> I think folks who are not very far along in the process should be known as Ubunturists (Ubunt-tourists).
[03:24] <mako> but would like consistency :)
[03:24] <sabdfl> consistency is good :-)
[03:24] <zyga> heh
[03:24] <zakame> hi sabdfl :D
[03:24] <sabdfl> i changed it in the places i knew it existed, it's a bug as ubuntite anywhere
[03:24] <zyga> Ubuntu*ists could be exploited to many different and ackward names
[03:24] <sabdfl> though, someone did point out there is a gender issue in some languages
[03:24] <Seveas> sabdfl, ok, we will maill all occurences of ubuntite to you :)
[03:25] <mako> sabdfl: in what sense?
[03:25] <mako> sabdfl: in "ubuntero"
[03:25] <sabdfl> Seveas: rather file bugs on LP
[03:25] <elmo> mako: ubuntero is male?
[03:25] <nalioth> elmo: in latin cultures, yes
[03:25] <mako> ubuntite seems quite neutral
[03:25] <Kamion> "Ubuntu" has case issues in some languages - my general opinion is "whatever" unless I'm actively sorting out translations
[03:25] <sabdfl> i cant remember, but in some languages it's definitely one or the other
[03:25] <MarioMeyer_> ubuntite would sound female in portuguese
[03:25] <raphink> yes ubuntero is definitely male
[03:25] <kjcole> sabdfl, Oops. Not thinking multi-lingually.  My mistake.
[03:25] <sabdfl> ubuntite seems a little uptite
[03:25] <MagicFab> Ubuntera would be female in spanish
[03:26] <mako> bbut only because people from seattle are seattlites
[03:26] <sabdfl> hmm... we could of course let people specify themselves
[03:26] <mako> sabdfl: no :)
[03:26] <mako> sabdfl: just choose one :)
[03:26] <MagicFab> Ubuntero/a would mean docs in spanish would have to accomodate for both (in some places)
[03:26] <bhuvan> +1 for ubuntite
[03:26] <Kamion> sabdfl: as long as there's a link to what it means in lp so that people quit asking, I really don't care
[03:27] <Seveas> bhuvan, we're not voting :)
[03:27] <sabdfl> Kamion: +1
[03:27] <Kamion> and I don't think the CC should get into the bikeshed argument of which it should be
[03:27] <elmo> I think we shouldn't underestimate the gender-bias in ubuntero
[03:27] <elmo> there's enough problems with barriers for women in IT without us adding potential new ones
[03:27] <\sh> sabdfl: is there no female/male/to be defined sex suffix for this in zulu?
[03:27] <dholbach> what's wrong with using "ubuntu member" and translating "member" in different languages shouldn't be hard - it doesn't sound cool, but it "works" :)
[03:27] <mako> i don't think gender-specific name for people who have signed the coc is a good idea
[03:27] <sabdfl> elmo: you and your lost causes ;-)
[03:27] <Kamion> dholbach: because it's *not* membership
[03:27] <kiko> ubuntera/ubuntero? :-P
[03:27] <mako> kiko: please no
[03:27] <raphink> dholbach: ubunteros are not necessarily members yet
[03:27] <MagicFab> UBunturist sounds great, although a bit long
[03:27] <sabdfl> UBUNTER(A/O)
[03:28] <zakame> jsgotangco: lol
[03:28] <sabdfl> ubunterrorista
[03:28] <kiko> lol
[03:28] <ogra> eek
[03:28] <\sh> ubunturist sounds like ubuntu terrorists
[03:28] <jsgotangco> that's jdub
[03:28] <bhuvan> let it not be terrorist :)
[03:28] <dholbach> haha
[03:28] <Kamion> ok, this is what I mean about bikeshed arguments
[03:28] <Seveas> Jdubuntu :)
[03:28] <zakame> \sh: haha
[03:28] <mako> ubuntonians
[03:28] <kjcole> sabdfl, I think that one only applies to benevolent dictators...
[03:28] <zyga> debianities, genotooities, fedoraxies are thankfully non-existant, I agree with dholbach's suggeston for something simple, Kamion is right too
[03:28] <sabdfl> ok, leave it as it is, with a link to an explanation
[03:28] <Seveas> ok
[03:28] <sabdfl> next?
[03:28] <Seveas> more kiko
[03:28] <mako> sabdfl: wait.. 
[03:28] <elmo> umm
[03:29] <ogra> as is is broken
[03:29] <mako> the problem is that it's inconsistent
[03:29] <ogra> we need one name
[03:29] <zakame> yubs?
[03:29] <mako> does leave it as it is mean "make it all ubuntero"
[03:29] <StevenK> It's a name we have came up with. We can just declare it is gender-neutral, right?
[03:29] <elmo> StevenK: no
[03:29] <sabdfl> right, i was saying ubuntero is the current one, ubuntite is a bug, we can do a vote on it to settle how it should be
[03:29] <Seveas> mako, sabdfl said: File bugs when you see Ubuntite - inconsistency can not be solved right here right now :)
[03:30] <mako> cool
[03:30] <raphink> StevenK: not sure, in latin cultures it feels funny to call a female with -o name
[03:30] <kiko> well
[03:30] <sabdfl> raphink: not even really cool females?
[03:30] <smurf> sabdfl: I don't think so
[03:30] <elmo> sabdfl: no
[03:30] <smurf> sabdfl: Spain is not Russia ;-)
[03:31] <raphink> sabdfl: let's see, females I see on linux systems like to be recognized as such even more than in other places most of the time...
[03:31] <\sh> .oO(what is a really cool female?"
[03:31] <Seveas> \sh, my fiancee :)
[03:31] <raphink> \sh: lol
[03:31] <sabdfl> i have another 30 mins, guys
[03:31] <elmo> sabdfl: dude, I've already had people complain about this to me.  I'm not arguing for hypotheticals
[03:31] <raphink> females who get to use Ubuntu deserve much ;)
[03:31] <\sh> Seveas: but she is not from a latin country, right? ,)
[03:31] <raphink> hehe
[03:31] <Seveas> \sh, no
[03:31] <Kamion> StevenK: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/ubuntu/1116733725 is the origin
[03:32] <sabdfl> ok, i don't mind reverting to ubuntite, but i think it sounds trite and uptight :-)
[03:32] <ogra> lets move on ...
[03:32] <Kamion> it's expressly coming from idioms in other languages
[03:32] <Seveas> sabdfl, you should revert it anyway temporarily until we can come up with a Really Cool Name(tm)
[03:32] <mako> seems like next up is the typo in the CoC
[03:32] <kjcole> One could look at Esperanto rules and see if there's any kind of gender-neutral, language-neutral ending...
[03:32] <raphink> Seveas: lol
[03:33] <Kamion>  Typo in the Code of Conduct: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/3952 (ChristianReis)
[03:33] <Kamion> at least this one is definitely within the CC's purview ;-)
[03:33] <Seveas> indeed
[03:33] <Seveas> it means everyone will have to sign again
[03:33] <raphink> kjcole: names in esperanto finish with -o and are neutral. Male names finish with -ulo and female with -ino.
[03:33] <Seveas> raphink, we moved on already...
[03:33] <kiko> okay
[03:33] <sabdfl> those caps are a little scary
[03:33] <kiko> so there's a typo in the CoC
[03:33] <mhz> raphink: good point
[03:33] <sabdfl> we don't have to re-sign
[03:33] <Kamion> Seveas: no, there's no particular reason to require people to sign the most current version if it's just a typo cleanup
[03:34] <Seveas> ah ok
[03:34] <sabdfl> the system is smart enough to remember which version you signed
[03:34] <Kamion> it would have to be a new version, yes
[03:34] <sabdfl> and i think it has a list of currently valid versions
[03:34] <mako> i'm reading tha tcnetance and i can't even see the error
[03:34] <Seveas> if launchpad can handle multiple CoC's there's no problem
[03:34] <kiko> it can
[03:34] <sabdfl> s/it/is/
[03:34] <Kamion> while we're at it we should nominate somebody to do a general proofreading pass
[03:34] <mako> ah, ok
[03:34] <kiko> I just wanted to bring this matter to your attention
[03:34] <Kamion> I'm happy to volunteer for that
[03:34] <mako> sure, shhould bbe fixed
[03:34] <sabdfl> kiko: nicely done
[03:34] <kiko> sure
[03:34] <Seveas> who will fix it?
[03:34] <mhz> Kamion: would new versions include localisations?
[03:34] <ogra> Seveas, Kamion 
[03:35] <Kamion> mhz: that's a separate issue
[03:35] <kiko> mhz, not yet, different topic.
[03:35] <mhz> okis
[03:35] <mako> mhz: we haven't talked about that
[03:35] <Seveas> .oO(Note to self: thorough proofreading of CoC for next meeting)
[03:35] <Kamion> ogra: I can't change launchpad
[03:35] <MagicFab> perhaps also include a reminder to people that have signed, whenever it changes
[03:35] <kiko> Seveas, I have someone to do that, I just want a new copy of the CoC, properly proofread.
[03:35] <ogra> Kamion, oh, misunderstood
[03:35] <kiko> I can also produce a list of people that have signed the old one
[03:35] <Kamion> Seveas: doesn't need to be in a meeting, I can just mail the CC a diff to make sure everyone's happy with the changes
[03:35] <sabdfl> mhz: we definitely want to do loclaisations of the CoC, just needs LP dev time
[03:35] <mako> kiko: well, go ahead and make that one-byte change
[03:35] <mako> it's uncontroversial
[03:35] <kiko> if we want to spam them to re-sign
[03:35] <sabdfl> kiko: no need for that no
[03:36] <Kamion> mako: I'd really like to avoid 1.0.1 1.0.2 etc. for successive one-byte changes
[03:36] <kiko> mako, I would rather only rev the version once this time
[03:36] <Seveas> kiko, neh, not for this change
[03:36] <kiko> ok
[03:36] <MagicFab> Kamion: align it with release cycles
[03:36] <mako> Kamion: so, wait until next week
[03:36] <kiko> I said spam for a reason :)
[03:36] <Kamion> shall I do this and mail launchpad@ with the diff once we're done
[03:36] <Kamion> MagicFab: no
[03:36] <mako> it's been there for a year, we can wait two weeks :)
[03:36] <mako> kiko: and no, i don't think people need to resign
[03:36] <bhuvan> we can post in mailing lists
[03:36] <Seveas> Kamion, sounds like a plan
[03:36] <Kamion> mako: it'll take ten minutes to do ;)
[03:36] <mhz> sabdfl: I asked because in case other people want to become members, I could ofer myself for the non-offcial version so they could at least understant what they'll face whn they sign
[03:36] <kiko> Kamion, that would be perfect.
[03:36] <kjcole> kiko, since you have a way of knowing who signed, is there a way to just automatically build that into some sort of announce mailing-list (broadcast only)?
[03:37] <sabdfl> mhz: we will do proper i18n for the CoC, just need to extend the system that tracks them
[03:37] <kiko> kjcole, not easily, but talk to me on #launchpad later about your use case and I'll see.
[03:37] <mako> yeah, i can take a look at it again also
[03:37] <mako> but people have a pretty amazing ability to see right through their own errors
[03:37] <Kamion> ok, NEXT :-)
[03:38] <Amaranth> mako: In more than just spelling and grammar. :)
[03:38] <Kamion> Automatix / forums nightmare argument issue
[03:38] <Kamion> are the relevant people actually here?
[03:38] <jsgotangco> forums...
[03:38] <robotgeek> I have a nice writeup here: http://robotgeek.org/cc.html
[03:38] <Amaranth> btw, holy crap i made it to a meeting
[03:38] <jsgotangco> haha
[03:38] <Seveas> automatix is the piece of crap that triggers reinstalls all over
[03:38] <Kyral> Seveas: Agreed :D
[03:39] <ogra> thats the one that breaks your sources.list, right ? 
[03:39] <Kamion> robotgeek: thanks, please add that to the link farm on the agenda
[03:39] <robotgeek> that link provides all relevant background, and also provides the links to conversations in #ubuntuforums
[03:39] <Madpilot> and it's causing censorship problems in the forums...
[03:39] <Seveas> that last line may have been a violation of the CoC, but the script is SO DAMN STUPID, I already know of dozens of people who had to reinstall after using it
[03:39] <nalioth> automatix is just a symptom of the larger issue
[03:39] <Kamion> (which we'll probably move to somewhere else, but anyway)
[03:39] <robotgeek> Kamion: sorry, i came up with it two hours ago. will do right away
[03:39] <Kyral> It adds the PLF repos for one thing...
[03:39] <zakame> er
[03:39] <mako> "thereby violating my rights given to me by GPL": i don't think you mean that
[03:40] <Kamion> so I can't say I'm terribly impressed with the post-deletions issue I've seen; however we have not yet heard the administration say their piece
[03:40] <robotgeek> mako: it was GPL'ed, and they did not allow me to post my changes?
[03:40] <Kamion> and I don't particularly want us to hold a trial in absentia
[03:40] <ogra> and they are not here it seems
[03:40] <Seveas> Kamion, indeed, but the forum administrators seem not to like coming to meetings
[03:40] <Amaranth> raphink: work on that was done where it made sense
[03:40] <Seveas> the almost always miss them
[03:41] <Amaranth> Yeah, the forum has really seemed to distance itself.
[03:41] <nalioth> are the ubuntuforums 'official' ?
[03:41] <Kyral> raphink: The reason why is because the majority of what they do is pull in things like w32codecs and SunJava
[03:41] <Seveas> nalioth, yes
[03:41] <Amaranth> no
[03:41] <Amaranth> err, since when?
[03:41] <ogra> yes
[03:41] <Seveas> since a long time already
[03:41] <ogra> warty
[03:41] <raphink> Kyral: well then it's not useful
[03:41] <mako> robotgeek: it would only be a GPL issue if you let you distribute the binary but not the source
[03:41] <jsgotangco> since we started paying part of the hosting...
[03:41] <Kamion> nalioth: yes, and Canonical contributes to their funding
[03:41] <robotgeek> mako: it's a bash script :)
[03:41] <Amaranth> ah
[03:41] <mako> robotgeek: this is a social problem, not a licensingg isssue
[03:42] <robotgeek> mako: agreed
[03:42] <mako> robotgeek: lets focus on the real issue
[03:42] <Amaranth> any canonical employees have any powers on the forum?
[03:42] <Amaranth> or any ubuntu members, even?
[03:42] <jsgotangco> no idea
[03:42] <nalioth> i think the forums needs a check-call, because there are major problems there. they seem to think the forums are not part of the ubuntu community as a whole
[03:42] <Kamion> Amaranth: a number of forums folks are members
[03:42] <Kyral> I believe UbuntuGeek is a Member
[03:42] <Seveas> Amaranth, most of the forum staff are members
[03:42] <Seveas> so they should (but don't) respect the code of conduct
[03:42] <Kamion> but there are no Canonical employees in the administration to my knowledge (which is probably how it should be)
[03:42] <jjesse> it seems every meeting lately there are issues w/ the forums
[03:42] <jsgotangco> agreed
[03:43] <mako> alright, the accusations are flying hard and heavy
[03:43] <ogra> jjesse, yes, but the people never appear here 
[03:43] <mako> the forums are *huge*
[03:43] <Amaranth> Kamion: I can see both sides of that one but I'd think having at least a mod would be a good thing.
[03:43] <MagicFab> PLF repos and ubuntu-fr docs are very non-free friendly - post install info includes Skype, msttfonts, MP3, etc.
[03:43] <mako> they are a massive portion of the ubuntu community
[03:43] <MagicFab> ubuntu-fr.org , that is
[03:43] <jjesse> ogra: if they don't appear here, then how can we deal w/ them here?
[03:43] <mako> in terms of raw numbers, they are quite likely the largest part
[03:43] <ogra> jjesse, thats the prob :)
[03:43] <mako> it might  makes sense that there a proportional amount of disagreements come from them
[03:43] <jsgotangco> most of the time, the forums are a unique community by itself...
[03:44] <robotgeek> the problem is that Ubuntuforums tends to feel that they are not a part of this community, even starting off their own wiki project
[03:44] <Kyral> MagicFab: I had a help case in where using the PLF repos seemed to cripple someone's system so bad that he couldn't install build-essential
[03:44] <zakame> indeed :(
[03:44] <Seveas> ok, we are rescheduling CC meetings at the end of this one, should we just defer this for now and wait for the next meeting so the forum staff can show up?
[03:44] <jsgotangco> robotgeek, that feeling is social
[03:44] <Seveas> without forum staff there is not much we can do now
[03:44] <\sh> Seveas: if they show up
[03:44] <Kamion> I didn't realise this was coming up until I looked at the agenda two hours ago
[03:45] <Kamion> did anyone explicitly ask the forums administration to show up here at this time?
[03:45] <mhz> robotgeek: I agree on that
[03:45] <robotgeek> half of the stuff is going to be gone, cause they prune the threads and all
[03:45] <Amaranth> robotgeek: So kassetra basically just moved every automatix-related post you made to the jail?
[03:45] <Seveas> they really should stop deleting things
[03:45] <Madpilot> Kamion: it's been posting at CCAgenda for a day or two
[03:45] <MagicFab> Some articles in ubuntu-fr planet explain how to use .debs directly etc. - I am not opposed to that but perhaps guidelines for LoCos should extend the CoC and provide for this
[03:45] <Kyral> the Ubuntu Forums channel is #ubuntuforums if anyone wants to know
[03:45] <robotgeek> Amaranth: yup. 
[03:45] <smurf> IMHO removing (meta-)controversial items instead of openly discussing them simply aggravates the problem in the long run
[03:45] <sabdfl> smurf: +1
[03:45] <Kamion> Madpilot: yes, but I don't sit reloading that religiously
[03:45] <Madpilot> Amaranth: one of my posts was yanked too
[03:45] <nalioth> Amaranth: robotgeek was not the only one 'pruned'
[03:45] <Kamion> Madpilot: and I doubt forums admins do either
[03:46] <Seveas> Kamion, subscribe to it ;)
[03:46] <MagicFab> Madpilot: not everyone knows to subscribe to wiki pages
[03:46] <Amaranth> nalioth: That'd be like you and me kicking random people in #ubuntu. :P
[03:46] <sabdfl> so, i think Kassetra has misread the GPL
[03:46] <kjcole> smurf: Agreed.  Hiding stuff doesn't make it go away.
[03:46] <Kamion> Seveas: I just did, but still, there's a lot of noise, and it *still* doesn't address the issue that nobody has yet owned up to asking the forums admins to be here
[03:46] <ogra> MagicFab, its one click
[03:47] <Seveas> Kamion, I'll ask for the next meeting
[03:47] <Amaranth> wtf
[03:47] <robotgeek> sabdfl: i think the issue was that arnieboy was a forum staff member
[03:47] <Kamion> Seveas: thank you
[03:47] <Amaranth> normal users can't get into the jail?
[03:47] <raphink> a consequence of documenting .deb installations too much is that many people come to pretend Ubuntu is hard to use because they tried to install stuff this way instead of using apt-get (or GUIs)
[03:47] <Seveas> Amaranth, normal users can't see half of the forums
[03:47] <sabdfl> she seems to think that it requires permission to change the code and publish a modified version
[03:47] <Seveas> they are too closed for non-members too
[03:47] <MagicFab> ogra: I know, among many other click in the same page. The forum admins may not be familiar with it (I wasn't). explicit invitation and "subscribe" should do it.
[03:47] <Amaranth> Seveas: Now that I have a serious problem with.
[03:47] <Kyral> I'll PM Kass on the Forums if anyone wants me to
[03:47] <Kamion> one of the threads linked to from the agenda does have arnieboy apparently threatening to delete bug reports (implying doing it himself, although it wasn't explicit)
[03:48] <Madpilot> Kamion: that's exactly what happened to several posts, including robotgeek's
[03:48] <sabdfl> robotgeek: did the new version correctly credit arnieboy's original copyright?
[03:48] <robotgeek> sabdfl: yes
[03:48] <Kamion> MagicFab: no, if somebody needs to show up for some bit of arbitration, they need to be explicitly asked to show up, rather than expecting everyone who might be involved in arbitration to subscribe all the time
[03:48] <sabdfl> Kamion: +1
[03:48] <robotgeek> sabdfl: i just added my name at the top, everything else was intact
[03:48] <smurf> sabdfl: I'd be inclined to treat that as a symptom for now; if the discussion would have (a) stayed open and (b) people wouldn't immediately jump on each other, minor issues like what the GPL means are self-correcting
[03:49] <sabdfl> smurf: well, i suspect the forums admins are super busy, and don't want to leave things out there
[03:49] <Amaranth> (off topic: claiming automatix is the successor to "ubuntu guide" doesn't make me feel too good about it)
[03:49] <MagicFab> Kamion: I was saying "invite them to meeting", but also "tell them to subscribe to the Agenda" as appropriate
[03:49] <sabdfl> they have to take decisions quickly, or it would all pile up
[03:49] <Seveas> Amaranth, you shouldn't
[03:49] <zakame> hm I think observing the code of conduct in the forums should be emphasized :(
[03:49] <Seveas> it's utter crap
[03:49] <Kyral> zakame: Here Here!
[03:49] <Kamion> MagicFab: I'm just saying I don't think the latter is an appropriate thing for us to ask them to do; most people don't live for community council meetings
[03:49] <jjesse> Amaranth: people should be using the ubuntu guide that is included in the docs
[03:49] <mako> Amaranth: the fact it installs lots of non-free and undistributable software doesn't exactly help
[03:49] <robotgeek> Amaranth: it's Ubuntu Forums wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
[03:49] <nalioth> Amaranth: they dont claim that, there is another site that they make that claim about
[03:49] <mako> and (apparently) bypasses legally binding shrinkrap licenses
[03:50] <sabdfl> the question here is did Kassetra just make a mistake (easily corrected) or was she trying to help arnieboy and ignoring the GPL in the process
[03:50] <Amaranth> nalioth: arnieboy makes that claim in his signature
[03:50] <Kyral> sabdfl: I have a log of an IRC "discussion" I had with the rest of the Forums community about it
[03:50] <jjesse> the doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Paige
[03:50] <mako> sabdfl: i don't think it's fair to have this conversation without Kas or arniebboy
[03:50] <jjesse> the doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
[03:50] <Kyral> I could dig it up and post it someplace
[03:50] <Seveas> Kyral, post it for the next meeting
[03:50] <Kyral> Seveas: Edited for content?
[03:50] <Seveas> we cannot really do anything now
[03:51] <MagicFab> Yeah, CoC should prevail
[03:51] <Seveas> Kyral, verbose
[03:51] <crimsun> I agree with mako
[03:51] <robotgeek> sabdfl: if you look at the google cache link, she did it knowingly. in fact, i believe she crafted the license
[03:51] <zakame> Kyral: I mean if people there simply delete posts (er even threaten deletion) that wouldn't do anyone good :(
[03:51] <sabdfl> the hotel just called to let me know that my "ground transportation" has arrived.
[03:51] <smurf> Hmmm. It works very well for ubuntuusers.de; the forum there is *quite* busy too. Letting the members self-police, and ping admins when necessary, basically works here.
[03:51] <Amaranth> Kyral: Can you email that to alleykat@gmail.com ?
[03:51] <Seveas> mako++
[03:51] <sabdfl> how very military
[03:51] <Kyral> Okay: Its ugly, tempers flared
[03:51] <Seveas> sabdfl, g'bye then
[03:51] <Kyral> Amaranth: After class remind me :P
[03:51] <robotgeek> sabdfl: nice talking to you
[03:51] <Kyral> I'll remmebr but just in case
[03:51] <Seveas> Shall we move on to the next topic?
[03:51] <Kyral> cya sabdfl
[03:51] <ogra> sabdfl, so dont forget your helmet ;)
[03:51] <Kyral> or your towel!
[03:51] <raphink> lol
[03:51] <Kamion> Seveas: if you're happy to take responsibility for asking some set of Kassetra, arnieboy, ubuntugeek, and/or other admins to show up, that would be fantastic
[03:51] <kjcole> sabdfl: ta-ta
[03:51] <jsgotangco> bye sabdfl thanks for the email too
[03:51] <Kamion> sabdfl: see you
[03:52] <Seveas> Kamion, I will
[03:52] <MagicFab> sabdfl: quick remonider: ColombianTeam starting, hoping to see you there
[03:52] <Kamion> Seveas: thank you
[03:52] <zakame> bye sabdfl :D
[03:52] <Kamion> ok, NEXT
[03:52] <MagicFab> sabdfl: (in Colombia, next year)
[03:52] <Seveas> mhz, 
[03:52] <raphink> sabdfl: have a good ground transportation ;)
[03:52] <Kamion> MauricioHernandez was approved during last meeting but he still does not appear listed as member in ?LaunchPad (it's been 2 weeks)
[03:52] <sabdfl> mako: i still think we could easily take a view on the derivative work, and let Kas know that we think it's fine and not in violation of the CoC and therefore does not need to be in the jail
[03:52] <mhz> Seveas: yup?
[03:52] <Kamion> mhz isn't approved because mako didn't vote (that I saw)
[03:52] <Kamion> mako: ?
[03:52] <Seveas> mako, you said you would vote for mhz later and didn't do so yet, so please :)
[03:52] <sabdfl> wait guys, i don't think we need to call the whole forums group in for every issue
[03:52] <mako> mhz++
[03:52] <mako> welcome
[03:52] <Seveas> mako, cool
[03:52] <Seveas> mhz, welcome aboard!
[03:52] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:52] <mhz> mako: thx, hehehe
[03:52] <sabdfl> the "censorship" here is just Kas enforcing what she understands
[03:53] <ogra> finally
[03:53] <Kamion> sabdfl: Kassetra and arnieboy, then? they seem to be the relevant pair
[03:53] <Seveas> (who has launchpad duty today?)
[03:53] <Kamion> Seveas: me
[03:53] <sabdfl> and we can rule that the code is fine to be published (even if we don't like the code)
[03:53] <mhz> ogra: finally :)
[03:53] <ogra> :)
[03:53] <sabdfl> that should be enough for robotgeek to get what he wants
[03:53] <zakame> yay mhz !
[03:53] <Seveas> Next up kjcole 
[03:53] <sabdfl> and Kas to gain a better understanding of the GPL
[03:53] <mhz> zakame: educool
[03:54] <kjcole> OK.  I assume we're talking the LoCo names and not my membership.
[03:54] <MagicFab> bien, mhz :D
[03:54] <sabdfl> if there is still censorship after that, then it's not accidental
[03:54] <Seveas> kjcole, correct
[03:54] <Kamion> sabdfl: right, needs someone who themselves has a good understanding of licensing to talk to them so that if they have other issues then there can be a useful discussion rather than "uh ..."
[03:54] <mhz> MagicFab: thx, suerte a ti!
[03:55] <Amaranth> Kamion: Volunteering? :)
[03:55] <sabdfl> Kamion: they are welcome to ping any of us on IRC, if they need that clarification, but this one is simple, Kas was not correct to jail the thread on the grounds of IP
[03:55] <Kamion> Amaranth: not especially :-/
[03:55] <kjcole> I've herded the US cats, as per smurf's request.  The consensus seemed to be Us<<State>><<City|CompassPoint>>
[03:55] <Kyral> I think we need RMS to talk to her lol
[03:55] <sabdfl> no need to turn it into a major issue
[03:55] <Amaranth> Kyral: We don't want to scar her for life...
[03:55] <Seveas> Kyral, :|
[03:55] <kjcole> e.g. UsTxAustin or UsTxNorth.
[03:55] <Kyral> Amaranth: lol
[03:55] <Kamion> kjcole: domain names aren't wiki-style ...
[03:55] <raphink> Kyral: +1
[03:55] <Seveas> kjcole, Do you think there will be so many teams?!
[03:55] <raphink> lol
[03:56] <Seveas> Kyral, please don't go off-topic
[03:56] <Kyral> sorry
[03:56] <kjcole> Hyphens instead of wiki style was also an option.
[03:56] <ogra> Seveas, US is a bit bigger than europe ;)
[03:56] <Seveas> ogra, true, but 2 in texas?
[03:56] <smurf> kjcole: umm, would that be north.tx.ubuntu-us.org then?
[03:56] <Kamion> sabdfl: ok, how about I communicate that to her
[03:56] <jbailey> Seveas: In the US and Canada, it's often not so much number of teams as proximity.
[03:56] <kjcole> Seveas: The problem is we already have two in texas...
[03:56] <Seveas> smurf, that and ubutnu-us-tx-north@lists
[03:56] <Kamion> since everyone else is RUNNING AWAY :-)
[03:56] <ogra> Seveas, Texas is bigger than europe i guess :)
[03:56] <jbailey> Seveas: Canada is 14 times the size of France. =)
[03:56] <raphink> ogra: Tx is not much bigger than France or Germany
[03:57] <mako> i'm happy to talk to them
[03:57] <ogra> raphink, but still ...
[03:57] <Kamion> mako: hooray
[03:57] <Kamion> :-)
[03:57] <MagicFab> jbailey: and half the people
[03:57] <Amaranth> Heh, I was just about to say mako probably knows best. :)
[03:57] <kjcole> Rewinding a bit: At UBZ, a few were talking about how "country" and "local" meant two different things.
[03:57] <sabdfl> cheers all
[03:58] <Seveas> kjcole, anyway, sounds like a plan and since you don't need CC approval for such things you should simply ping smurf to arrange it :)
[03:58] <mako> i'm going to finish reading the logs and then contact kas and arnieboy
[03:58] <kjcole> Local (to me and a few others) suggested a community where people were close enough to meet face to face.
[03:58] <jbailey> MagicFab: Right.  But a 5.5 time zone spread makes meetings very hard. =)
[03:58] <smurf> Fine with me, anyay
[03:58] <MagicFab> kjcole: and "locale" too
[03:58] <smurf> anyway
[03:58] <Kamion> Seveas: indeed
[03:58] <mako> does someone have arniboy's email?
[03:58] <Seveas> mako, will you ask them to come to the meeting too?
[03:58] <smurf> as long as people don't want ubuntu-us-tx-north.org :-/
[03:58] <robotgeek> mako: greyrod@gmail.com
[03:58] <Kamion> Seveas: no, that's obsolete
[03:58] <robotgeek> nothing's wrong with TX
[03:58] <Seveas> Kamion, ok
[03:59] <Kyral> robotgeek: lol
[03:59] <Seveas> So then we landed at new members
[03:59] <Kamion> Seveas: sabdfl ruled on it, none of us disagreed (and I think we all heartily agree), end of story :)
[03:59] <MarioMeyer_> why dont u do sub-domains.. like north.tx.ubuntu-us.org
[03:59] <raphink> :)
[03:59] <Seveas> MarioMeyer_, they do
[03:59] <Seveas> Kamion, couldn't agree more
[03:59] <mako> Seveas: sure
[03:59] <\sh> smurf: you could sell subdomains to it...like me.at.* like jump.to ,-)
[04:00] <smurf> \sh: They're Canonical's ;-)
[04:00] <Seveas> anyway, anyone question/remarks about any of the previous topics?
[04:00] <MagicFab> I know if I go to Texas I wouldn't be searching for "TX" or "north.tx" 
[04:00] <Seveas> going once
[04:00] <robotgeek> Seveas: wait...
[04:00] <mako> lets move on
[04:00] <mako> please
[04:00] <mako> it's gonna be pumpkin time again sooner rather than later
[04:00] <Seveas> ok
[04:00] <robotgeek> Seveas: the main issue is not with my script/whatever, but with the censorship. However, that's for later?
[04:00] <Seveas> robotgeek, yes
[04:01] <Seveas> moving on now
[04:01] <Kamion> robotgeek: already ruled on and passed
[04:01] <robotgeek> good
[04:01] <Seveas> MagicFab 
[04:01] <MagicFab> yes
[04:01] <MagicFab> posting summary...
[04:01] <MagicFab> WikiPage:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez - re-edited since last CC. I am originally from Colombia, have been living in Quebec Canada since '89. I am part of Canadian Team, Marketing Team and recently helping Colombian Team get started (Loco Contact). I started UbuntuInLibraries, I also occasionally do cleanup on the Wiki, post to forums or help in #ubuntu, #ubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-es.
[04:01] <MagicFab> I currently work full-time as an Open Source software solutions consultant, focusing on security and migration issues in Montreal. I have developed Linux training focused on Ubuntu which will be given at local libraries and ed. facilities, I have strong links to the local community and I am mostly interested in advocacy/marketing (events, etc.), local support & training and new users introduction / migration to Gnu/Linux
[04:02] <ogra> MagicFab participated a lot in te ltsp BOFs iirc ...
[04:02] <Seveas> to add: MagicFab was defered last time, since his wiki page was not clear enough on his contributions (being mainly in advocacy) and he has been asked to return this time after fixing that
[04:02] <Kamion> mako: did you work with MagicFab over the last two weeks?
[04:03] <MagicFab> I asked Drobitaille, CBurger , HFiguiere (members) to come, they're all in timezones difficult to come
[04:03] <MagicFab> BUrger is here, also GuBa from (future) ColombianTeam
[04:03] <mako> MagicFab: did we? i don't remember doing more than a few messages
[04:03] <mhz> MagicFab: has also been active on marketing proposals and spreading ubuntu for latinamerican people
[04:04] <MagicFab> mako: no, I asked for input but didn't get any replies. However I asked other members/users and did many changes
[04:04] <Seveas>  Actively marketing and selling Ubuntu-related services locally: <-- any url on that?
[04:05] <mhz> Seveas, also MagicFab has started UbuntuInLibraries initiative
[04:05] <mako> i'm still concerned that many of the more substantial projects within the the ubuntu project have pages and edits that are within the last week or two
[04:05] <MagicFab> http://www.fabianrodriguez.com
[04:05] <MagicFab> :)
[04:06] <jsgotangco> mako, as if rushing for something?
[04:06] <jsgotangco> :)
[04:06] <Seveas> mhz, yeah I really like that one
[04:06] <mako> mhz: yes, but that page is 9 days old
[04:06] <MagicFab> mako: whois
[04:07] <mako> on a conference call next week, we discussed the idea of giving some more fixed guidelines in terms of what we meaned by sustained projects
[04:07] <mhz> hmmm, it is probably because many non-english activities related to ubuntu are usually not logged somewhere
[04:07] <mako> basically, an involvement in/on a particular project that is 2+ months
[04:07] <mako> mhz: well, then we need testimonials
[04:08] <Seveas> mako, advocacy is not always in projects
[04:08] <MagicFab> mako: well, Iasked you driectly for input, didn't get any. I didn't re-add myself to the CC agenda, so I thought it was OK. Regardless, membership is not a requisite for me to keep contributing.
[04:08] <mhz> mako: that's why having latinamerican ubuntu memebers was so important
[04:08] <mako> Seveas: i understand that and i have been happy to accept other advocates
[04:09] <mako> and i'm going to be happy to accept MagicFab too :)
[04:09] <mako> but in fairness to everyone else, it seems like *some* testimonials would be useful
[04:09] <mhz> usually, many contributors do not get logged mainly because 99% of what they do is in spanish or other lang.
[04:09] <mako> in the absence of other documentation
[04:09] <Seveas> mako, the people who can are not yet here
[04:09] <mako> mhz: point me to spanish pages then
[04:09] <mako> other people have
[04:10] <MagicFab> how can I get that if theycan't come.
[04:10] <mako> Seveas: i understand that
[04:10] <jsgotangco> mhz, that shouldnt be an impendiment
[04:10] <MagicFab> mhz: all my contribs are listed there (my wiki)
[04:10] <mako> MagicFab: you can have them write it up? as comments on your page
[04:10] <mako> in email to the CC
[04:10] <mako> there are many options
[04:10] <Seveas> mako, that's an idea
[04:10] <mhz> jsgotangco: i know, it is just that even I had to make a decision... english or spanish. I chose english.
[04:10] <mako> i believe we have solved the communicating asynchronously problem ;)
[04:10] <Kamion> mako: perhaps we could mail those that Fabian lists under People and ask them for comments
[04:11] <Kamion> (hub, corey, daniel, sivan)
[04:11] <mhz> MagicFab: do you have a list or something?
[04:11] <mako> Kamion: seems good
[04:11] <MagicFab> mako: yes
[04:11] <mhz> mako: good point
[04:11] <MagicFab> Kamion: exactly
[04:11] <Kamion> mhz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%c3%a1nRodr%c3%adguez
[04:11] <MagicFab> mako: they all need to be current members, right ?
[04:11] <Seveas> MagicFab, not per se
[04:11] <Kamion> mako: wanna do that, or shall I?
[04:11] <Seveas> but it helps
[04:12] <Kamion> certainly all the above are known to me, although I don't know hub so well
[04:12] <mako> MagicFab: they should have been around for a long time and are well known and trusted by the CC and teh community
[04:12] <mako> MagicFab: that will almost always make them members :)
[04:12] <mako> but need not
[04:12] <MagicFab> One thing I sense is that advocacy is always treated as second-class work. I feel I could become member by going MOTU in 1/10 the time
[04:12] <Amaranth> MagicFab: It's easier to show MOTU work.
[04:12] <Kamion> MagicFab: it's not so much second-class as much harder to "measure"
[04:12] <MagicFab> And, well, without advocacy what would we do ?
[04:12] <mako> MagicFab: that's not true
[04:12] <jsgotangco> MagicFab, that ain't true...
[04:12] <Seveas> kamion +1
[04:13] <ogra> MagicFab, you cant become MOTU without being member 
[04:13] <mako> i can think of a dozen members off of my top of my head who have pure advocacy
[04:13] <jjesse> MagicFab: it took me 4 or 5 tries to be a member
[04:13] <mako> probably 50% are pure advocacy memberships (even if they do other things)
[04:13] <MagicFab> Well, it's not encouraging any advocacy work to just say "it's harder" - I mentioned in the last CC there needed to be more info for this kind of contributing
[04:13] <ogra> MagicFab, but indeed its easier to document a handfull of bugs you solved than social work
[04:13] <smurf> MagicFab: you forget that MOTU work is not visible most of the time -- all the hours of hacking on your box to find those damn bugs ...
[04:14] <jsgotangco> ogra, true the social work really needs to be visible...
[04:14] <ogra> yup
[04:14] <mako> MagicFab: we talked about creating guidelines in a conference call after the next meeting
[04:14] <ogra> and bugs are in bugzilla already
[04:14] <Kamion> s/next/last/
[04:14] <MagicFab> ogra: I'd like to work on that too -
[04:14] <ogra> great :)
[04:15] <jsgotangco> jjesse, only because you don't go to meetings often before =)
[04:15] <mako> MagicFab: you're not beiing rejected and you shouldn't feel that way
[04:15] <teroedni> :)
[04:15] <jjesse> jsgotangco: grin :)
[04:15] <MagicFab> smurf: will setup a CVS for my UBuntu mentions all day :)
[04:15] <mako> we ask everyone for 2 full months of sustained, significant, and  visible contributions
[04:15] <MagicFab> mako : I don't  ;) I feel like my membership process is testing some new ground
[04:15] <mako> frequently, the visible the hard part :)
[04:15] <jsgotangco> growing pains
[04:16] <Seveas> MagicFab, it is
[04:16] <bhuvan> MagicFab, you must not take it that way
[04:16] <MagicFab> mako: ONE month
[04:16] <MagicFab> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberProcess?highlight=%28newmember%29
[04:16] <zakame> jsgotangco: here here! :D
[04:16] <MagicFab> or two depending on sources - that's what I mean
[04:17] <MagicFab> anyways, I
[04:17] <mako> MagicFab: we're probably going to change that :)
[04:17] <MagicFab>  will get involved in the NewMember stuff, hope to learn more from there
[04:17] <Seveas> MagicFab, cool, glad you don't feel rejected
[04:17] <bhuvan> MagicFab, good
[04:18] <mako> MagicFab: where does it say one month?
[04:18] <Seveas> mako, you have said that before, so I put that on the what-to-do-if-you-want-to-be-a-member page
[04:18] <mako> MagicFab: also, that is a wikipage, not an official process page
[04:18] <zakame> MagicFab: go rock the advocacy :D
[04:18] <Kamion> MagicFab: the mention of a month there is about people who never show up for discussion
[04:18] <mako> Seveas: cool
[04:18] <mhz> MagicFab: how old is tha include you made and shared with me ?
[04:19] <mako> alright, lets go on
[04:19] <Seveas> LaserJock, 
[04:19] <Seveas> (JordanMantha)
[04:19] <Seveas> give us the 3-line intro please
[04:19] <LaserJock> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha
[04:19] <LaserJock> LP: https://launchpad.net/people/mantha
[04:19] <LaserJock> I am a 4th year PhD student in Physical Chemistry at the University of Nevada, Reno. I have been using Ubuntu since the Hoary Array CDs. I use it at work for data collection and analysis (as well as packaging on the side ;-) ) I've been helping out the MOTU since a few weeks before the Breezy release. I try to do whatever I can to help.
[04:19] <LaserJock> Basically, I try to focus on scientific package since I feel the need for that. For Breezy I worked on unmet deps and FTBFS as much as I could while learning to package.
[04:19] <LaserJock> I have done some merges and worked on some bugs. I also started a MOTUScience team and a working on an Ubuntu Packaging Guide for the doc-team. 
[04:20] <bhuvan> LaserJock have been doing good job on packaging guide for quite some time
[04:20] <jsgotangco> yay
[04:20] <Seveas> ok, MOTU people, we need advocates :)
[04:20] <MagicFab> Kamion: I'll dig it - the point is the process is CONFUSING and excluding advocacy because "it's hard to measure". I'll try harder to measure it, so should you
[04:20] <jjesse> LaserJock: is working hard on the doc team
[04:20] <Amaranth> LaserJock: ever get any feedback upstream on the science category?
[04:20] <ogra> and at the MOTUs
[04:20] <LaserJock> Amaranth: don't think so yet
[04:21] <LaserJock> Amaranth: I will keep track of it though
[04:21] <Amaranth> LaserJock: if not snag the icon from the bug and see if seb128 will do it as a patch for now
[04:21] <crimsun> I worked with Jordan prior to Breezy's release; a couple of his changes are in Breezy
[04:21] <Kyral> LaserJock: I think the only thing we got back was the email tag about FlowDesigner
[04:21] <ogra> he's around for quite some time already and did a lot of merges i'd consider myself as rather advanced tasks 
[04:21] <crimsun> I've also uploaded a host of his merge work for Dapper
[04:21] <dholbach> i was very happy to see LaserJock start the motuscience team and start working on organising the MOTU part of the wiki
[04:21] <Seveas> ok, the cheerleaders are happy :)
[04:21] <Amaranth> aye
[04:21] <jsgotangco> yeahh
[04:22] <Kamion> MagicFab: yeah, it's something we talked about on the phone the other week and will be trying to improve
[04:22] <MagicFab> crimsun: for how long ;)
[04:22] <zakame> go go go LaserJock :)
[04:22] <seb128> Amaranth: what?
[04:22] <crimsun> MagicFab: a bit longer than two months
[04:22] <Seveas> LaserJocks wikipage looks ok, syncing is a good job :)
[04:23] <ogra> and wxwidgets is an evil package to start with, kudos ...
[04:23] <bhuvan> LaserJock, you should have included your doc patches in your wiki
[04:23] <Seveas> :)
[04:24] <LaserJock> ogra: yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into 
[04:24] <ogra> hehe
[04:24] <ogra> but you did it :)
[04:24] <Seveas> LaserJock, to boldly merge what no one ever merged before
[04:24] <Kamion> prior to breezy's release => nearly more than two months already
[04:24] <LaserJock> Seveas: lol, ignorance instead of boldness maybe
[04:25] <Seveas> LaserJock, well you pulled it off
[04:25] <Seveas> that's a big +
[04:25] <\sh> laserjock for membership? I'm happy to see him as member and later on as motu :)
[04:25] <LaserJock> \sh: eventually. one step at a time
[04:25] <Seveas> the crowd is happy, but what about the CC?
[04:25] <mako> there's certainly a lot of work h ere
[04:26] <jsgotangco> solid work really
[04:26] <Kamion> there are uploads from LaserJock going back to September, anyway
[04:26] <\sh> LaserJock: no excuses no running away :)
[04:26] <dholbach> haha
[04:26] <mako> airght
[04:26] <bhuvan> dholbach you hug frequently :)
[04:27] <\sh> oh yes...mako...welcome to MOTU :) we're waiting for your merges ;9
[04:27] <raphink> :)
[04:27] <mako> LaserJock sounds fine with me
[04:27] <ogra> bhuvan, he's a true hugger
[04:27] <Kamion> I'm very happy to see somebody taking up a bunch of science applications, and am happy with LaserJock for membership
[04:27] <elmo> ack from me too
[04:27] <Seveas> LaserJock, congratz!
[04:28] <dholbach> congratulations, LaserJock 
[04:28] <jsgotangco> cheers
[04:28] <LaserJock> thanks CC, thanks all you supporters
[04:28] <Seveas> welcome to the Ubuntumember boat
[04:28] <\sh> LaserJock: welcome aboard :)
[04:28] <Kamion> LaserJock: a lot of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline seems like it would fit under the banner of developer-documentation (discussed at UBZ; conclusion was to make a small branch of the Debian Developer's Reference)
[04:28] <ogra> yay for LaserJock 
[04:28] <Seveas> Next up: Kyral (Chris Peterman)
[04:28] <zakame> yay LaserJock :D
[04:28] <Kyral> Wiki: wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisPeterman
[04:28] <Kamion> it might be worthwhile looking at that rather than duplicating several years of work in Debian
[04:28] <LaserJock> Kamion: I talked to Diziet about that. He thought it was ok
[04:28] <Kamion> ok ...
[04:28] <LaserJock> Kamion: I will keep in touch with him though
[04:29] <Kamion> thanks
[04:29] <Seveas> Kyral has been quite active in #ubuntu
[04:29] <ogra> *intro
[04:30] <Kyral> Greetings. I am currently a second year CS Major at Clarkson University. Currently I am helping out mostly on the Forums, but I have also recently been helping out LaserJock with MOTUScience. I have also started a small LocoTeam between Clarkson University and SUNY Potsdam. Currently running Dapper on both my Desktop on Laptop
[04:30] <Seveas> that's line one :)
[04:30] <Seveas> what are your plans for Ubuntu activity?
[04:31] <\sh> he forgot to tell us that he was the first pupil in ubuntus motu school :)
[04:31] <mhz> LaserJock: yahooo!
[04:31] <MagicFab> for how long ?
[04:31] <Kyral> Yah, I got jumped by 4 MOTUs last Wednesday
[04:31] <ogra> \sh, did he behave while you were teaching him ? :)
[04:31] <raphink> lol
[04:31] <Seveas> IRC activity dates back quite some time
[04:32] <\sh> ogra: well...yes..but he forgot his homework :)
[04:32] <Kyral> RIght now I have finals coming up so Ubuntu is kinda on the backburner
[04:32] <Kyral> However in-between semesters I will pick up on my activity again, hopefully finishing FlowDesigner's patches
[04:33] <Kyral> In addition I have signed up to write the Install Guide for the DocTeam and I plan to help LaserJock with the packaging Guide
[04:33] <mako> when was this?
[04:33] <Seveas> ogra, correct
[04:33] <ogra> mako, way ago ... 
[04:33] <Kyral> mako: When was what?
[04:33] <Seveas> My logs only date back to sept 23 and he was active then
[04:33] <Amaranth> oh crap, finals
[04:33] <ogra> i think i stopped being highly active there during my work on hwdb
[04:33] <Seveas> but i'm pretty sure i've seen him far before that too
[04:34] <MagicFab> Kyral, can you tell us since when you consider you have contributing to Ubuntu ?
[04:34] <ogra> so mid hoary ...
[04:34] <Kyral> My Forums registration date is about May
[04:34] <Kyral> I believe
[04:35] <Nafallo> ogra: totally the way to go :-)
[04:35] <Seveas> Join Date: 05-19-2005
[04:35] <Seveas> Posts
[04:35] <Seveas> Total Posts: 1,650 (8.21 posts per day)
[04:35] <Seveas> (kyral @ forums)
[04:35] <ogra> hehe
[04:35] <jsgotangco> ogra, tsk tsk....
[04:35] <LaserJock> ogra: better than Debian releases ;-)
[04:35] <ogra> loool
[04:35] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[04:35] <raphink> lol
[04:35] <Kyral> Most of my work has been in the Forums Community, specializing in the Desktop Support and Absolute Beginners Talk forums. I have written two helper threads for the ABT Forum, Terminal For Beginners and Window Managers for Beginners
[04:36] <zakame> hehe
[04:36] <Seveas> I'd be happy with Kyral as member given his support work on IRC and the forums
[04:36] <MagicFab> So that's easy to measure. Forum posts.
[04:36] <kjcole> ogra: Sounds like the Zork Flathead calendar... warty, hoary, breezy...
[04:36] <Kyral> I recently helped Brunellus write the Fluxbox wiki page
[04:36] <mako> hmm.. impressive inregards to the forums.. and a quick glance over implies good qualiity
[04:36] <Kamion> MagicFab: I'm not personally convinced by post count as a measure of contribution though
[04:36] <mako> Kamion: yes
[04:36] <jsgotangco> MagicFab, quantity doesnt count
[04:37] <MagicFab> Kyral: what % of your contributions would you say are advocacy andor business related
[04:37] <mako> Kamion: i always spot check
[04:37] <LaserJock> Kyral has been lots of help with MOTUScience, he has 2 science package on REVU right now and he is always eager to help
[04:37] <Kyral> I have also helped people on campus install Ubuntu
[04:37] <Kyral> MagicFab: I don't do business, I'm just a simple CS Major
[04:37] <MagicFab> jsgotangco: well then don't, I just said it's easy to measure, never mentioned quality (tx. mhz)
[04:38] <Kyral> They are very happy with it and were surprised that it was that easy
[04:38] <MagicFab> Kyral: advocacy ? 
[04:38] <crimsun> Chris has been active in #ubuntu for 3+ months. I'm fairly active in that channel.
[04:38] <Kamion> the referenced pieces of documentation seem to be pretty clear documentation for beginners, to me
[04:38] <Kamion> MagicFab: it's not particularly easy to measure, although it is at least visible so we have something to go to
[04:39] <Kyral> Next semester in combination with the rest of the PNYTeam I hope to deploy Edubuntu into the Potsdam NY school district
[04:39] <ogra> crimsun, sure thats not been longer (much longer ?)
[04:39] <Kamion> (well, the *useful* thing isn't easy to measure :-))
[04:39] <nalioth> Kyral does help out quite a bit on IRC, and has for some time
[04:39] <ogra> yay
[04:39] <ogra> ++ for edubuntu promotion
[04:39] <crimsun> ogra: I'm fairly sure it's at the very least 3 months
[04:39] <Kyral> But that one is still up in the air as I have to go through one of my professors who has the contacts in the district
[04:39] <crimsun> s/fairly//
[04:40] <mhz> Kyral: educool!
[04:40] <mhz> :)
[04:40] <Kyral> But an InstallFest is VERY Likely
[04:40] <Seveas> crimsun, that's the very least, it's been 4 months more :)
[04:40] <mhz> Kyral: i hope you join #edubuntu after meeting
[04:40] <Kamion> I'm happy with Kyral for membership after checking up on some of the references
[04:41] <Kyral> mhz: After the meeting I need to go to class :D
[04:41] <mhz> Kyral: okis, then as soon as you can :)
[04:41] <ogra> mhz, he sometimes is there ...
[04:41] <mhz> indeed
[04:41] <mako> alright, i'm running short on time here
[04:41] <Seveas> ok, next up raphink 
[04:41] <Kyral> Actually I am too
[04:41] <raphink> ok
[04:41] <Seveas> if elmo has voted 
[04:41] <raphink> (WikiPage : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson ; Launchpad : https://launchpad.net/people/raphink )
[04:41] <Seveas> so not yet :)
[04:41] <raphink> I'm a 23-year-old french guy, formerly studying aeronautical engineering. I'm involved in packaging for Ubuntu, and a MOTU Wanabee, having already been granted the right to review on the REVU system.
[04:41] <raphink> My first contact with Ubuntu was with Warty on PPC, although I mostly used Debian Sid during the last year, before switching to Kubuntu with Breezy.
[04:41] <raphink> I spend a lot of time on IRC helping on #kubuntu, #ubuntu, #kubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-fr channels and more, since about mid-. I also contributed a bit to bug fixes and translations on Rosetta.
[04:42] <raphink> huhu
[04:42] <elmo> ack for kyral
[04:42] <raphink> sorry
[04:42] <Seveas> elmo, cool
[04:42] <ogra> welcome Kyral 
[04:42] <Seveas> Kyral, welcome!
[04:42] <Kyral> now, if you will excuse me, I have to run to class :D
[04:42] <kjcole> Kyral: Congrats
[04:42] <ogra> go to class .... 
[04:42] <raphink> :)
[04:42] <raphink> s/mid-/mid-october/
[04:43] <Kamion> Kyral: BTW not entirely sure about your strategy for debugging the build-essential/PLF thing - apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true is often a lot quicker
[04:43] <mhz> Kyral: wlecome edubuntero :D
[04:43] <mako> where is your lp page?
[04:43] <Seveas> https://launchpad.net/people/raphink
[04:43] <Kyral> mine?
[04:43] <mako> no
[04:43] <raphink> mine is where Seveas just pointed ;)
[04:44] <raphink> (although I have posted it in my "3-line-intro" too)
[04:44] <mako> sorry, misseed it
[04:44] <dholbach> one thing i can say about raphink is that i was impressed that he reviewed packages on REVU and mailed the contributors (although he was no motu yet)... i talked to siretart, to give raphink comment-rights in revu.
[04:44] <raphink> shall I post again?
[04:45] <Seveas> raphink, no
[04:45] <ogra> raphink, we can scroll
[04:45] <mako> no no,it's fine
[04:45] <raphink> ok :)
[04:45] <ogra> dholbach++
[04:45] <Seveas> raphink, is indeed helpful for REVU
[04:45] <MagicFab> raphink: since when ?
[04:45] <mako> have long have you been doing the revue work?
[04:46] <raphink> MagicFab: since very recently if that makes you feel comfortable ;)
[04:46] <raphink> mako: I have been granted the review rights only a few days ago
[04:46] <mako> right
[04:46] <raphink> I have had packages on REVU since about 20 days i'd say
[04:46] <MagicFab> raphink: just logging stuff ;)
[04:46] <Seveas> raphink, that's a bit too short I'm afraid
[04:46] <raphink> and began to be active on IRC in mid-october
[04:46] <MagicFab> raphink: also checking if I should go MOTU
[04:46] <mako> ok, i'd prefer a little longer term contributions in there areas personally
[04:46] <MagicFab> ;)
[04:47] <raphink> Seveas: I reckon it's recent contributinos
[04:47] <mako> not much, 1-2 more meetings worth
[04:47] <Seveas> raphink, see you in 2006 ;)
[04:47] <jsgotangco> LOL
[04:47] <mako> that's not the law
[04:47] <raphink> hehe
[04:47] <mako> that's just my gut feelingg right now
[04:47] <Kamion> yeah, I'd tend to go with mako, although what I see so far is good
[04:47] <Seveas> mako, but I do agree with it
[04:47] <mako> if Kamion or elmo disagrees, that's fine too
[04:47] <raphink> bye MagicFab 
[04:48] <mako> alright guys
[04:48] <mako> i'm coming up on a hard end to my time here
[04:48] <Seveas> he's done good work, so in a few weeks he'll fly by
[04:48] <juliux> hi all
[04:48] <raphink> hi juliux 
[04:48] <Seveas> there's 3 more to go
[04:48] <ogra> so speed up ...
[04:48] <MagicFab> I'd like this question to be asked to all members: since when have you been contributing. Just want to understand this better. Will review the logs.
[04:48] <raphink> there's just the fact that it's a funny situation to be granted review rights without being a member, but if that's alright ;)
[04:49] <mako> i have 9 more minutes
[04:49] <Seveas> ok, next up kjcole 
[04:49] <Seveas> 3 line intro please
[04:49] <kjcole> Summary:
[04:49] <Seveas> cya MagicFab 
[04:49] <kjcole> I'm a co-author for the Edubuntu Cookbook (WIP), and working at a university exclusively for deaf students, am involved with the Accessibility Team (and trying to involve students and faculty here). I've contributed several bug reports on Launchpad. Last May, I helped run an InstallFest with Ubuntu as the distro of choice. I helped run a local Software Freedom Day event. I'm now the Washington, DC LoCo Team leader/contact (replacing Paul Flint
[04:49] <kjcole> s switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.
[04:50] <Seveas> kjcole, sounds cool
[04:50] <hno73> I can confirm that kjcole has been doing good work on the Accessibility Team 
[04:50] <kjcole> (And, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinCole and https://launchpad.net/people/kjcole since those questions come up a lot here.)
[04:50] <ogra> kjcole, is a active edubuntu contributor ....
[04:50] <Kamion> first line cut off at "(replacing Paul Flint"
[04:50] <jsgotangco> same here
[04:50] <Seveas> your wikipage is a bit incomplete it seems
[04:51] <mako> well, it's not bad, but it's doesn't represent all that you've contributed :0
[04:51] <jsgotangco> he's relatively new but he's been focused on stuff
[04:51] <kjcole> int). We've gotten some local businesses switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.
[04:51] <mako> there are some quite significant pieces of docs in there
[04:52] <ogra> the edubuntu cookbook is *very* significant
[04:52] <Seveas> the freenx howto is a bit redundant :)
[04:52] <jsgotangco> ogra, where is it located at this time btw?
[04:52] <ogra> jsgotangco, you should know :P
[04:52] <jsgotangco> ogra, oh right...yes...
[04:52] <ogra> heh
[04:52] <kjcole> ogra: Elkner and I have set up weekly meetings to work on the Cookbook.  Making good progress.
[04:53] <ogra> cool
[04:53] <mako> kjcole: very excellent
[04:53] <mako> any testimonials?
[04:53] <ogra> i'd like to look over it for the tech POV ... but that doesnt belong here 
[04:53] <jsgotangco> well he did took over the cookbook from me....
[04:53] <jsgotangco> (when i started with my new job)
[04:54] <mhz> mako: kjcole has been very commited to edubuntu
[04:54] <ogra> he was very active in the ltsp BOFs at montreal
[04:55] <jsgotangco> his experience with AT has been helping the newly formed AT team
[04:55] <mako> it's impressive
[04:55] <hno73> he makes good contributions in discussions on accessibility
[04:55] <mako> oh, and acccessibility
[04:55] <mhz> we need kjcole 
[04:55] <Kamion> mm, right, sorry I've been quiet, I've been lost in the huge pile of documentation ;-)
[04:55] <mhz> hehehehe
[04:55] <Seveas> Kamion, that's a good sign :)
[04:56] <mako> alright guys, 3 minutes for me
[04:56] <ogra> vote !!
[04:56] <Seveas> Kamion, elmo any verdict on kjcole ?
[04:56] <Kamion> yeah, I'm happy
[04:56] <Seveas> cool, that's 2 
[04:56] <ogra> elmo ?
[04:57] <elmo> ack
[04:57] <Kamion> NEXT
[04:57] <Kamion> Steve Kowalik
[04:57] <Seveas> cool, welcome kjcole 
[04:57] <StevenK> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveKowalik
[04:57] <ogra> welcome kjcole 
[04:57] <Seveas> StevenK, 
[04:57] <StevenK> I'm 24 years old, and have been a Debian developer since August of 2001. I have done 12 or so merges of universe packages, and have been helping on #ubuntu-motu with technical questions as well. My immediate plans for Ubuntu include becoming an MOTU to help with the merge until the UVF, and fixing up xemacs, since at the moment, its a little broken, and unusable for my purposes.
[04:57] <kjcole> Thanks.  When can I expect the secret decoder ring and X-ray vision glasses in the mail? ;-)
[04:57] <ogra> dholbach, asked me for:
[04:57] <Seveas> StevenK, just a note: you don't have to be a motu to help
 I was very glad to see StevenK 1) learning the different workflows in the motu team so quickly and 2) helping other MOTU hopefuls, since he knew part of the story as a DD already"
[04:58] <StevenK> Seveas: Of course not.
[04:58] <Kamion> kjcole: could you propose yourself for the ubuntumembers team in LP please? https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join
[04:58] <mhz> kjcole: edubuntu people rock!
[04:58] <mako> StevenK: how long have you been hanging around these parts?
[04:58] <StevenK> mako: Not long enough? :-)
[04:58] <ogra> Seveas, see the dholbach quote
[04:58] <ogra> 2) especially
[04:58] <StevenK> mako: It hasn't been long. A few weeks is rough guess.
[04:59] <mako> StevenK: cool, lets put this off for a couple more then if that's alright
[04:59] <mako> StevenK: cool to see you around here :)
[04:59] <StevenK> Couple more weeks, or meetings?
[04:59] <Seveas> twice as many weeks as meeting :)
[04:59] <Seveas> but i'd say 2 meeting should do
[05:00] <mako> probably a couple meetings to be fair
[05:00] <raphink> that seems mathematically correct Seveas ;)
[05:00] <Kamion> shrug, I don't have a problem either way since Steve's been doing lots of Debian work for ages (and thereby effectively contributing to Ubuntu if you want to look at it that way)
[05:00] <ogra> Kamion++
[05:00] <Kamion> but if we want to defer for fairness to other folks, that's fine too
[05:00] <mako> we have said we'd taken debian work as a form of indirect contribution
[05:00] <mhz> Kamion: very important point
[05:01] <ogra> elmo, any opinion ? 
[05:01] <Kamion> the only caveat to the above is making sure people know the ropes and are happy to stay around
[05:01] <elmo> I don't mind either
[05:01] <Kamion> (trying to avoid Debian's problem of lots of inactive people, really)
[05:02] <Kamion> Steve's been in Debian for years though so I figure he has some degree of staying power
[05:02] <ogra> was that a vote ? 
[05:02] <mako> StevenK: does that sound OK?
[05:02] <StevenK> Um, there was a conclusion reached?
[05:02] <mako> StevenK: you gonna stay around?
[05:02] <Kamion> that was the least conclusive vote EVAH
[05:02] <Seveas> :)
[05:02] <mako> StevenK: feel like you know the ropes?
[05:03] <StevenK> mako: I'm planning on sticking around, anyway.
[05:03] <mako> StevenK: if you're alright committing now, i think we're happy approving you for membership
[05:03] <StevenK> mako: I'm getting there quickly.
[05:03] <mako> cool
[05:03] <ogra> mako, he helps and teaches MOTU hopefulls, seems he knows the ropes
[05:03] <mako> killer
[05:03] <mako> alright,
[05:03] <mako> i am overdue alright
[05:03] <Kamion> right, StevenK++ since we know and trust him from elsewhere
[05:03] <mako> was ther eone more
[05:03] <Seveas> yes, zyga
[05:03] <Kamion> azeem was the last
[05:03] <zyga> hi
[05:03] <StevenK> Hell, I wrote a package checker. That implies I know packaging. :-)
[05:03] <Kamion> oh, zyga
[05:03] <mako> two more than!
[05:03] <zyga> Zygmunt Krynicki 23, freelance programmer
[05:03] <mako> StevenK: i'm familiarr with it
[05:04] <Kamion> elmo: I'll take "I don't mind either" as a yes
[05:04] <zyga> I've been here befor a month ago, since then I've been active in -desktop team
[05:04] <StevenK> Thanks for the approval, though.
[05:04] <ogra> so may we say welcome StevenK ?
[05:04] <ogra> :)
[05:04] <elmo> Kamion: ok ;)
[05:04] <ogra> yeah
[05:04] <zyga> I've got an (almost) fully impolemented spec, for command-not-found, together with mvo's help
[05:04] <Seveas> welcome StevenK then :)
[05:04] <mhz> StevenK: welcome!
[05:04] <mako> alright guys, im two hours late to work already
[05:04] <StevenK> Thanks!
[05:04] <mako> i am going to run
[05:04] <Seveas> mako, :(
[05:04] <StevenK> I might run, too.
[05:04] <zyga> I'm also working with pitti on .desktop files (mainly patches to code on my side)
[05:05] <Kamion> mako: seeya
[05:05] <StevenK> Considering it's 3am.
[05:05] <Seveas> mako, have fun at work, seeya next time
[05:05] <zyga> I've been active on the translation arena
[05:05] <mako> please go ahead
[05:05] <zyga> as well as local (ubuntu.pl) arena
[05:05] <Kamion> ok, sorry everyone, but we just became inquorate - we can go through people and mako can catch up later to complete approvals
[05:05] <zyga> I still need to devote more time for motu ruby 
[05:05] <Seveas> mako, I'll e-mail you the relevant log
[05:05] <Seveas> (for zyga/azeem)
[05:05] <mako> if you guys come to consensus, i give mhz permission to install a bot to pester me ever 5 minutes until i answer one way or another
[05:05] <zyga> I guess that's it, the rest is on my profile page
[05:06] <kjcole> As it is 11:00 AM, and I'm theoretically working for my office... I'm outa here.  Thanks again.  TTYL.
[05:06] <zyga> I'm happy to answer any questions you may have
[05:06] <Kamion> mvo: around?
[05:06] <ogra> ciao kjcole 
[05:06] <azeem> we can just defer me to the next meeting, no problem
[05:06] <mvo> Kamion: yes
[05:06] <Seveas> azeem, rock
[05:06] <mhz> mako: mean me or mdz?
[05:06] <Kamion> mvo: opinions on zyga?
[05:06] <mako-pumpkin> mhz: you
[05:06] <mako-pumpkin> later
[05:06] <mhz> bye
[05:06] <Seveas> .desktop + gettext sounds cool
[05:07] <mvo> I'm happy with zyga contribution, he did a lot of good work on cmd-not-found spec
[05:07] <mvo> +1 from me on membership
[05:07] <ogra> he pushes me to inally make hwdb gettextable, so ++ from here ...
[05:07] <ogra> *finally
[05:07] <zyga> oh right :)
[05:07] <zyga> I need to send you that :)
[05:07] <mvo> very active on various fronts :)
[05:07] <zyga> I keep forgetting ;P
[05:08] <ogra> me too, me too
[05:08] <ogra> :)
[05:08] <zyga> oh no actually, you need that bzr branch, right?
[05:08] <ogra> yup
[05:08] <zyga> k
[05:08] <ogra> but its on my todo for this week
[05:08] <ogra> (officially)
[05:09] <Kamion> Scope
[05:09] <Kamion> This idea touches nearly every single package from universe and some packages in main. 
[05:09] <Kamion> ^-- concerning ...
[05:09] <Kamion> (we generally try REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD to avoid touching the whole of universe for anything at all)
[05:10] <zyga> Kamion: that's for the future :-)
[05:10] <pitti> Hi
[05:10] <zakame> hi pitti 
[05:10] <Kamion> zyga: just logging something I perceive as insanity now rather than later :)
[05:10] <zyga> Kamion: it might be implemented for dapper+1 as a test run. I won't have enough time to finish it before 
[05:10] <Kamion> but you seem to be contributing all over the place anyway and you've been around for some time, so I have no problem saying yes
[05:10] <zyga> Kamion: and it needs some good understanding of how updated langpacks work out
[05:11] <pitti> zyga> So far I worked with Zygmunt with translation-related things; we discussed some improvements and some ideas about enhancing langpacks/rosetta
[05:11] <pitti> and I was really impressed by his work for LangpacksLocales
[05:11] <pitti> he provided patches, tests, etc.
[05:11] <pitti> I would be glad to see him as a member
[05:12] <Kamion> ok, works for me, thanks
[05:12] <Kamion> elmo?
[05:12] <elmo> yeah, ack
[05:12] <pitti> (sorry for being late; I'm still not used to the rotation)
[05:12] <Kamion> pitti: you and me both, I think it's more shuffling than rotation
[05:12] <Seveas> cool, mhz, start the mako-ping-bot ;)
[05:12] <mhz> hehehehe
[05:12] <Kamion> Michael Banck
[05:13] <Seveas> Kamion, which brings us to the last item
[05:13] <Kamion> another long-time Debian guy
[05:13] <Seveas> azeem didn't mind being defered
[05:13] <zyga> Yah
[05:13] <Kamion> ok, that would be simpler
[05:13] <Seveas> so next is scheduling
[05:13] <zyga> thanks
[05:13] <jsgotangco> i gotta sleep cacth you guys later
[05:13] <Seveas> I received a total of zero seggestions on a new CC schedule
[05:13] <pitti> congrats, zyga, and welcome
[05:14] <zyga> thanks :))
[05:14] <Seveas> which is a bit less than expected :)
[05:14] <Kamion> Seveas: and again we've missed mako, d'oh
[05:14] <Seveas> Kamion, shall I just do this via E-mail for the next meeting and pester people to reply?
[05:14] <Kamion> personally I have no idea what mako's schedule is nowadays (since he isn't working for Canonical any more)
[05:14] <elmo> we should set up a list, and organize it by email
[05:14] <ogra> lets do the scheduling at the beginning next time, so he can intervene
[05:14] <Kamion> Seveas: I think mailing the four of us would be moderately useful, yes, and what elmo said about a list
[05:15] <Kamion> shall I poke jdub about that?
[05:15] <elmo> nah, mail RT
[05:15] <elmo> I can do that these days
[05:15] <Kamion> 'k
[05:15] <Seveas> ubuntu-cc@lists I guess?
[05:15] <Seveas> or cummonity-council@lists
[05:15] <Seveas> well, with the o and u swapped
[05:16] <Seveas> I'd prefer community-council@
[05:16] <elmo> I don't much care; I'll create whichever I'm told
[05:16] <Seveas> hehe
[05:16] <elmo> but anyway, since we can't organize the schedule now - is there anything else?
[05:16] <Seveas> no
[05:17] <mhz> Seveas: was mako serious on the botting issue?
[05:17] <elmo> Kamion: good on your side?
[05:17] <elmo> mhz: no
[05:17] <mhz> cool
[05:17] <Seveas> :)
[05:17] <Kamion> oh, should community-council@ be publicly archived?
[05:17] <Seveas> I'd say yes
[05:17] <Kamion> personally I'm thinking not because we do sometimes need the facility for private discussion
[05:18] <elmo> Kamion: I'd guess not - anything substantive that's public should be done in a more public forum
[05:18] <Seveas> will it be 'open for the public' to subscribe?
[05:18] <Kamion> Seveas: no
[05:18] <Kamion> it's more along the lines of a contact address
[05:18] <Seveas> only the 4 of you?
[05:18] <Kamion> right
[05:18] <Kamion> it should be possible for people to mail "the community council"
[05:19] <Seveas> ok, then I'll mention it as a contact address in the report
[05:19] <ogra> mhz, you dont want that ...
[05:19] <mhz> hehehe
[05:19] <ogra> there are days in have twice as much ...
[05:19] <mhz> ogra: I love to 'delte' emais from inbox
[05:19] <mhz> :D
[05:19] <Kamion> and it should probably be possible for people to mail it with roughly the same expectation of privacy as they have from mailing a person (i.e. some)
[05:19] <ogra> (normally its aroud 3-400)
[05:19] <Seveas> Kamion, can I/ogra/dholbach/smurf as active CC-meeting-followers subscribe or is it strictly the four of you?
[05:20] <elmo> Seveas: it's a contact address for the CC
[05:20] <Kamion> elmo: RTed
[05:20] <elmo> so it should be limited to the CC
[05:20] <Seveas> ok
[05:20] <elmo> IMO
[05:20] <elmo> Kamion: thanks
[05:21] <Kamion> Seveas: as elmo says, wider discussion can be held on other fora (e.g. sounder@) or people can be cc'ed for input on specific issues
[05:21] <jsgotangco> sounder is good
[05:21] <Seveas> OK, then that'll be all I guess
[05:21] <Seveas> I'm going to make and eat dinner and then write the summary for {devel,sounder,cc,fridge}
[05:21] <Kamion> I don't mean to be exclusionary here, I don't expect there will be lots of stuff there, but a contact address is getting increasingly required
[05:22] <Kamion> and in cases of dispute resolution other people may very well want it to be limited-circulation
[05:22] <Kamion> ok, I think we're done, thanks all
[05:22] <robotgeek> later
[05:22] <Seveas> later all
[05:23] <zakame> yay
[05:23] <Seveas> 2 weeks from now, at a time to be discussed :)
[05:23] <Seveas> cool
[05:23] <mhz> see ya all
[05:23] <robotgeek> Seveas: do i need to be a member to add to the agenda?
[05:24] <Seveas> robotgeek, no, what do you want to add?
[05:24] <robotgeek> Seveas: the whole forum/wiki. i'll write up a summary, and post it so that people can get a fair idea. since, hopefully the forum mods will be tehre next time
[05:25] <robotgeek> not specific to my case, tho
[05:26] <nalioth> there are forums issues that affect the whole community
[05:27] <ogra> but hard to discuss if the people in charge never show up
[05:27] <nalioth> quite.
[05:28] <mhz_lunch> ogra: so, maybe now jdub will answer my emails :D
[05:28] <robotgeek> ogra: i'm more concerned with the 'splitting' up of the community, with double efforts here and there
[05:29] <robotgeek> it's a nasty issue, but it will need to be solved sooner or later
[05:29] <ogra> robotgeek, i'm concerned about that since warty ... but it doesnt help...
[05:29] <zakame> er we don't want either sides to feel alienated :/
[05:30] <ogra> i.e. you are either a forum person or you are a mailing list person ... i'm the latter and i dont know whats going on in the forums ...
[05:30] <jsgotangco> same here
[05:30] <ogra> others wont know whts up with the mailing lists
[05:30] <jsgotangco> and the ml is more unmoderated
[05:31] <robotgeek> i think the forums are a part of the community. i mostly do irc/wiki, but do post on the forums sometimes. However, stuff claiming to be "this is the real ubuntu/guide/whatever" don't really contribute to ubuntu as a whole
[05:31] <azeem> ogra: bidirect gateways to the rescue!
[05:31] <ogra> yes, but there are more active devs at least taking a glance 
[05:31] <ogra> azeem, we have them ...
[05:31] <azeem> yeah, I know
[05:32] <robotgeek> anyways, looks like i've rambled enough :)
[05:32] <Seveas> robotgeek, please don't edit the CC agenda today though, I'm making my weekly edit
[05:33] <robotgeek> Seveas: no, i just added that link as someone asked me to do so. I havent (won't) touch it further. 
[05:36] <nalioth> y'all be safe
[05:37] <robotgeek> well, a fruitful first meeting for me. later all
[05:38] <zakame> bye all, and peace! :)
[05:38] <ubuntugeek_> meeting over?
[05:39] <Kamion> yes
[05:39] <Kamion> it started two-and-a-half hours ago, just finished
[05:39] <ubuntugeek_> ok
[05:40] <ubuntugeek_> i'll email the people who need to hear what i gotta say then
[05:40] <ubuntugeek_> thanks
[05:42] <mhz_lunch> mako: you'll have to vote update on some members :)
[05:42] <mako> i don't have time to takea  look at that right now
[05:43] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, can you cc me in that mail please
[05:44] <Seveas> I'm writing the summary of that meeting and would ike to include it
[05:44] <ubuntugeek_> email?
[05:44] <ubuntugeek_> i can basically state it here if you want
[05:45] <Seveas> that's good too
[05:47] <ubuntugeek_> well i am tired of this bullshit surrounding the forums and the ubuntu community and the community council.. I am seriously considering terminating the project or removing the official status it has. 
[05:48] <ubuntugeek_> thats all i have to say right now i'll make my decision known
[05:48] <jsgotangco> bullshit with the council?
[05:49] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, im very sorry to hear that
[05:49] <ubuntugeek_> i find it hard to accept the CC an make any rules or decisions when they dont even visit the forums
[05:50] <jsgotangco> do you mean the CC doesn't apply very well to a forums setting?
[05:50] <ubuntugeek_> well i have yet to see that anyone actually understands how the forums work let alone care to find out.. from the previous cc meetings i have been in.
[05:50] <ubuntugeek_> jsgotangco: yes 100% correct
[05:50] <Kamion> this week's issue seemed pretty independent of what setting it happened to be in
[05:50] <azeem> ubuntugeek_: this is why the CC invited the forum admins to join their meeting for the next time
[05:50] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, you're right with that, but this (the issue on the agenda now) is a dispute between a fw community members
[05:51] <Seveas> that it takes place on the forums is not the essence
[05:51] <Kamion> i.e. it was claimed that somebody in charge attempted to stop people from distributing changes to a GPLed work on the grounds that it was illegal
[05:51] <ubuntugeek_> i look at the CC agenda I see.. "We already had a discussion about locking or removing discussion. Apparently that still happens. IMHO this needs to be addressed, among other problems these threads are an example of. -- MatthiasUrlichs"
[05:51] <Seveas> deleting posts and threads is however frowned upon, but no one wanted to judge that without you and other admins being able to defend it
[05:51] <Kamion> ubuntugeek_: dude that's just a (relatively) random person's comment on the agenda, it's not a CC opinion
[05:52] <Kamion> anyone can edit that agenda, it's a wiki page
[05:52] <jsgotangco> i'm pretty confident people in the CC or even in this channel go to the forum every while
[05:52] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, please look at the agenda again in 10 minutes after I did the weekly update to reflect the current status
[05:53] <ubuntugeek_> seveas: ok.. please put on agenda "the future of the forums" for dicussion at the next meeting then
[05:53] <Kamion> the main problem from our side is that most of the times that people ask for an opinion on some issue, only the aggrieved party shows up
[05:53] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, will do
[05:53] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, the date and time of the next meeting are not yet known, I'll keep you pasted
[05:53] <ubuntugeek_> well its hard to show up well its off time for me or when i work..
[05:53] <Seveas> posted*
[05:53] <Kamion> which puts us in a very difficult position; I for one don't want to make a decision based on hearing only one side of the issue
[05:53] <ubuntugeek_> and when i do show its a waste anyways no one gives a shit what i say
[05:53] <Kamion> in this case references were given and they seemed to be pretty clear
[05:54] <Kamion> but we refrained from getting into anything about locking/deleting posts
[05:54] <azeem> Kamion: so assuming that agenda item changes are emailed to the CC members, couldn't one of you (or a secretary) try to invite the other parties to the netx meeting as well?
[05:54] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, the CC does care about what you say, as much as they care about any other member 
[05:55] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: I dont agree with that 100% but ok..
[05:55] <Kamion> azeem: yes, we need to get better at that; I only actually remembered to subscribe to that wiki page today so ...
[05:55] <Seveas> there are others that may put disrespecting things on the agenda, but the agenda does not reflect the opinion of the CC
[05:55] <Seveas> the log of the meetings does
[05:55] <ubuntugeek_> Ok I said what i need to say, i need to get back to work.. thanks
[05:55] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, thanks for showing up
[05:55] <\sh> well...locking and deleting posts on german forums means normally, that the maintainer is responsible for every post on maintained forum website...which means he can be charged even if the maintainer didn't write this post
[05:56] <Kamion> to be perfectly honest it seems more like you don't care what we say - we've ended up in the position of being an arbitration body for your debates, but you keep saying our opinions aren't valid
[05:56] <Kamion> which is very difficult to deal with
[05:56] <azeem> \sh: you mean from a legal POV?
[05:56] <\sh> azeem: yes..
[05:56] <azeem> i.e. if somebody external sues
[05:56] <azeem> ok
[05:56] <Kyral> can't we please just get along....
[05:56] <Kamion> it would really help if we could somehow agree that some things are social issues independent of the setting
[05:57] <Kamion> I'd far rather be dealing with social issues that aren't intrinsically connected to the setting they're in anyway
[05:57] <Kamion> and ultimately, most disagreements between people are just that - people are people regardless of whether they're on a mailing list, on IRC, or in a web forum
[05:57] <ubuntugeek_> Kamion: until the forums are understood 100% and we can agree its going to be a biased decision.. 
[05:58] <Kamion> mostly they're decisions about people, not about forums
[05:58] <azeem> ubuntugeek_: is there documentation somewhere the CC members should read up on?
[05:58] <Kyral> I hate this fight I really do. As a Member and as an active Forums user this is a very distressing fight
[05:59] <ubuntugeek_> azeem: just participate in the forums thats the best way to understand
[05:59] <ubuntugeek_> Kyral: agreed.. 
[05:59] <Kyral> ubuntugeek_: I do participate and I don't see the problem
[05:59] <Kamion> would it be valid for us to say that you can't understand Ubuntu unless you participate in the mailing lists?
[05:59] <Kamion> I don't think so
[05:59] <Kyral> and I think that Kass and AB are in the wrong on this one
[05:59] <Kamion> but it has a similar chain of reasoning
[05:59] <ubuntugeek_> Kyral: and maybe they are.. I am talking about a bigger issue here
[06:00] <Kyral> which is?
[06:00] <Kamion> (since all Ubuntu development is on mailing lists or in IRC, or occasionally at conferences)
[06:00] <Seveas> Kyral, we're not judging right and wrong now
[06:00] <Kyral> sorry, but I seem to have to deal with this everyday and its getting VERY tiring
[06:00] <ubuntugeek_> The issue is, the CC makes decisions that the forums should follow when they dont understand how the forums work 100%
[06:01] <ubuntugeek_> Kyral: yeah me too.. its getting real old
[06:01] <Kyral> what pisses me off is talk of separation of the Forums from Ubuntu
[06:01] <\sh> ubuntugeek: well...reading in the last couple of weeks the german forums...I have really problems with the mostly anonymous people there..some are trolling, some are really serious and annoyed about the trolls...and some are really dangerous with their advises...which tells me, that I will avoid writing and reading to forums...with exceptions every now and then
[06:01] <Kamion> but it's *not* about how the forums work, in the vast majority of cases
[06:01] <ubuntugeek_> Kyral: well pisses me off too.. but ya know what
[06:02] <Kyral> Don't say it
[06:02] <\sh> ubuntugeek: I don't think it different from other forums 
[06:02] <Kamion> unless there is a magic potion you give everyone when they join up for the forums that makes them a different kind of person
[06:02] <Kamion> in which case, where's mine? :-)
[06:02] <ubuntugeek_> Ok then .. someone tell me why i should continue to provide the forums to the ubuntu community?
[06:02] <ubuntugeek_> and put up this the bullshit :)
[06:02] <mjg59> ubuntugeek_: If you don't want to provide something, then don't. 
[06:03] <mjg59> This is a community of volunteers. You can't be compelled to do something you don't want to do.
[06:03] <Kamion> (ahem, Canonical helps, and AIUI has repeatedly offered to help more)
[06:03] <\sh> Kamion: signed keys...trackable names...no anons anymore...if everyone will post with their names and personallity attached, people are changing...or the userbase will just decrease
[06:03] <Kamion> ultimately though it ought to be about your users
[06:03] <Kyral> ubuntugeek_: You wouldn't
[06:03] <Kyral> you KNOW how crucial a support base the Forums are
[06:04] <ubuntugeek_> Kyral: Yeah I do.. it holds a large population base of this distro..
[06:04] <Kyral> and you KNOW it will cripple Ubuntu
[06:04] <ubuntugeek_> Kyral: Yes I do
[06:04] <Seveas> Kyral, it won't take long until others step up
[06:05] <Seveas> but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave
[06:05] <\sh> Kyral: well...no...there will be another forum setup etc. 
[06:05] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: So you saying I shoukld shut it down?
[06:05] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, well, no
[06:05] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Seems like it to me
[06:05] <Kamion> 17:05 < Seveas> but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave
[06:05] <Seveas> you're doing a great job and no one can prevent that rhere will be disputes from time to time
[06:05] <Kyral> ubuntugeek_: if you don't want to run it give it over to Canonical
[06:06] <\sh> Kyral: this is not a solution
[06:06] <Seveas> but please keep in mind that the CC does not want to impose anything, only to resolve these disputes
[06:06] <Kamion> Kyral: for the record Canonical has consistently made an effort not to be trying to take it over from Ryan; we feel that would be unhelpful and antagonistic
[06:06] <Kyral> \sh: Worse case scenario
[06:06] <ubuntugeek_> Kamion: That is correct
[06:06] <Kyral> ie, UbuntuGeek doesn't want to do it anymore
[06:06] <\sh> Kyral: again...social issues can't be solved technically
[06:06] <Kyral> \sh: This is why I am not a Business Major :P
[06:06] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, however good you are and whatever the effort, there'll always be people who disagree, such is life
[06:06] <ubuntugeek_> Kamion: And I respect that
[06:07] <Amaranth> 'social issues can't be solved technically' <--more people need to understand this :)
[06:07] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: true that..
[06:07] <\sh> Kyral: and closing down a forum or a person is leaving...is more a technical thing then social
[06:07] <Kamion> Kyral: we've offered funding to help out, and some of that's been accepted
[06:07] <Kyral> \sh: I know, suddenly my head is in "Worst Case Scenario" mode
[06:07] <ubuntugeek_> For the record I would never just shut it down.. 
[06:07] <Amaranth> Straight question in need of a straight answer: Does the CoC apply to the forums?
[06:08] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, so please stay around and try to put up with the bullshit some users give you. And please try to keep up with the CC who don't know how a forum works
[06:08] <Seveas> Amaranth, yes
[06:08] <\sh> ubuntugeek: no one said this :) I just explained, that this is not a solution
[06:08] <Seveas> (afaik)
[06:08] <Kyral> bbiab
[06:08] <Amaranth> Seveas: Was sort of asking ubuntugeek. :)
[06:08] <Seveas> Amaranth, ah
[06:08] <Kamion> we take quite a lot of flak in the development community too, for one thing or another; you put up with it by looking past it to see that you're generally making the world better
[06:08] <ubuntugeek_> Amaranth: yes
[06:09] <Amaranth> ubuntugeek: Are there any consequences for repeated violations by regular members?
[06:09] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Ok but I would like to see some more paricipation from the CC so they can clearly understand the issues the forums have
[06:09] <\sh> Amaranth: to the ubuntu members, i don't think a software can sign the CoC 
[06:09] <Kamion> and also by trying not to rub people the wrong way intentionally
[06:09] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, the CC are all very active developers and I'm afraid they don't have enough time to visit the forums regularly
[06:09] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Which is a huge problem
[06:10] <Kamion> ubuntugeek_: I've tried from time to time, but we are all incredibly busy in our own right (sabdfl obviously, elmo's the lead Canonical sysadmin, I'm the installer guy and do lots of other work, mako has another job)
[06:10] <Seveas> that said, what are the most interesting parts of the forum from the view of the CC?
[06:10] <Seveas> I could try to make some time to visit those
[06:10] <Seveas> (note: I'm not a CC member, but active contributor to the meetings)
[06:10] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Well the issues at hand are in community chat and the backyard.. those seem to flare up
[06:10] <Amaranth> Are all the forum mods ubuntu members? Should they be?
[06:10] <Kamion> however, with the help of the forums admin team when disagreements are brought to us, perhaps we could factor out the parts of the issue that are specific to the forums and consider the rest
[06:10] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: sometimes having input from a cc member on the issues would be nice
[06:11] <Kamion> ubuntugeek_: the issue at hand today was neither, AIUI?
[06:11] <Seveas> Kamion, well, the forum was dragged in with it by users, but it basically was a dispute that could have happened anywhere
[06:11] <ubuntugeek_> Amaranth: the three admins are not sure of the others
[06:11] <Seveas> apart from the deletion of posts
[06:11] <Seveas> (no judgement there)
[06:11] <Kamion> right, I assumed it was in a development section from the content, although I didn't actually check
[06:12] <Kamion> because it didn't seem relevant where it was
[06:12] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Right but sometimes a post does need to be edited
[06:12] <Amaranth> I think all the mods should have to be members.
[06:12] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: and not all people are going to like this
[06:12] <Kamion> there's a bit of a difference between editing and deleting bug reports
[06:12] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, I understand that, that's why i said (no judgement there)
[06:12] <\sh> ubuntugeek_: why? I mean elmo or jdub don't edit the mails on ubuntu-users or ubuntu-devel ml...
[06:12] <Kamion> bug reports are often pretty hostile, but it's really important not to get into a mindset where you consider them personal attacks
[06:13] <Seveas> It's too easy to flame on a public medium and when the medium gets big it'll attract more badness
[06:13] <Seveas> on a forum (contrary to mailinglist and usenet) you can DO something about that
[06:13] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: I agree 100% and forums are very subject to flames.. which atrract more flames.. sometimes the editing needs to be done
[06:13] <Seveas> same for IRC
[06:14] <Seveas> I have been kicking more people in #ubuntu lately than half a year ago 
[06:14] <Seveas> and lots of people start yelling in private chats
[06:14] <Kamion> #931 on http://apqi.com/ubuntu/Automatix%20(Automated%20GUI%20installation%20script)%20-%20Page%2024%20-%20Ubuntu%20Forums.htm is really mild as bug reports go and yet the response was "Unless the tone of this post is changed, and lame accusations like ... removed, it will be ignored and removed from this thread again"
[06:14] <Kamion> (I realise this particular one wasn't deleted though)
[06:14] <ubuntugeek_> Seveas: And thats the same issue we have on the forums.. we dont like to ban people sometimes it needs to happen.. with 57,000+ users its going to happen
[06:14] <\sh> Seveas: but you don't k-line the person or you can't edit his statement when it's said...
[06:15] <Seveas> Kamion, you should see this bugreport in the context of everything surrounding automatix
[06:15] <Kamion> Seveas: you should see some of my bug reports
[06:15] <Seveas> the thing is controversial and attracts lots of heat
[06:15] <Kamion> so is Debian :-)
[06:15] <Seveas> Kamion, I read bugzilla :)
[06:15] <Seveas> btw: has my bug closing hitrate improved already? :)
[06:16] <Kamion> it's getting there ;)
[06:16] <Seveas> cool
[06:16] <ubuntugeek_> Ok I need to get back to work.. thanks for listening to my comments
[06:16] <Kamion> I check them all though
[06:16] <Seveas> ubuntugeek_, thanks for speaking up
[06:16] <Kamion> yep, thanks, I do appreciate it
[06:16] <Seveas> I'll still put you on the agenda for next week
[06:16] <ubuntugeek_> thanks
[06:16] <Kamion> disagreeing sometimes doesn't mean we aren't listening, btw :-)
[06:16] <Seveas> :)
[06:16] <ubuntugeek_> :)
[06:17] <Amaranth> "well as it works from here on, u will need to send me the edited form and upon my approval, u can release it under a different name which does not have the word "automatix" in it. U also need to acknowledge that its based on automatix and abstain from using words like safer/better/worse etc.."
[06:17] <Amaranth> that isn't the GPL....
[06:18] <Seveas> nope
[06:19] <Seveas> bueno, CC agenda edited
[06:25] <Seveas> Kamion, one more thing: Seb Payne told me he'll not be applying for membership again, he's short of time
[06:25] <Kamion> Seveas: ok, thanks
[07:58] <Belutz> duh
[07:58] <Belutz> i miss the meeting