[12:56] <janeW> ok let's hope I don' get disconnected this week...
[12:57] <ogra> janeW, isnt that the regular 24h disconnect ? i got them to here 
[12:57] <ogra> if so, just make sure you connect at another time of day, thn it should happen around this time ...
[12:58] <janeW> ogra: may be, but I just had one now... so we should be good *holding thumbs*
[12:58] <janeW> ogra: it does drop randomly at times and the national poer failures we have had don't help
[12:58] <janeW> poer=power
[12:59] <ogra> national ? ugh ...
[12:59] <janeW> they keep having to do emergency shut downs of the nuclear plant nearby 8/
[12:59] <ogra> nearby ? ouch ...
[12:59] <ogra> that doesnt sound nice ...
[12:59] <janeW> shoo these Dapper Update Meetings and Tables are keeping me BUSY
[01:00] <janeW> ogra: yup less than 50km away
[01:00] <ogra> *shudder*
[01:00] <kjcole> monring  (or whatever) all.  (And, as usual nothing "good" about it.)
[01:00] <janeW> heh, I am actually one of it's supporters but I still wouldn;t want to mess with it
[01:00] <ogra> hey new memeber :)
[01:00] <kjcole> janeW, isn't it about time for your connection to fail? 
[01:00] <janeW> ok it;s 14:00
[01:01] <janeW> kjcole: heh, just happened, we should be good now ;)
[01:01] <kjcole> ogra, thanks for the support.
[01:01] <janeW> roll call
[01:01] <kjcole> kjcole is sleepy... er.. is Kevin Cole
[01:02] <janeW> just the 3 of us?
[01:02] <jelkner> jelkner is Jeffrey Elkner
[01:02] <janeW> hi jelkner 
[01:02] <jelkner> hi jane!
[01:02] <kjcole> morning, jeff.
[01:03] <jelkner> good morning kevin
[01:03] <jelkner> while we wait for other folks, can we do a quick update on documentation?
[01:04] <kjcole> I'm game.
[01:04] <ogra> we should probably wait for highvoltage and jsgotango for that
[01:04] <janeW> let's start with ogra's update now, so we don't run out of time...
[01:04] <ogra> since they are involved with docs
[01:04] <janeW> they can catch up from the notes...
[01:04] <jelkner> ogra: only problem is, i will need to leave by 7:30 pm
[01:05] <janeW> jelkner: ok you are straight after ogra. ok?
[01:05] <jelkner> last week i missed a bunch of import stuff (including local devices)
[01:05] <jelkner> ok
[01:05] <kjcole> FYI: SInce this falls before my morning commute, and Accessibility Team falls after it, I'm going to blow out of here in 55 minutes...
[01:05] <janeW> kjcole: ok understood
[01:05] <ogra> ok, 
[01:05] <janeW> let's go them, waiting for late ppl just encourages them to be late
[01:06] <ogra> the CD build looks very good, we should have all 3 arches ready today, i386 hd three uninstallable packages tonight rthat should be gone by now, for the other arches the install CD should be fine already
[01:06] <flint> morning ollie
[01:07] <ogra> liveCD builds will start immediately after i have someone building the filesystem for me ...(i.e. directly after the ubuntu livefs was built)
[01:07] <ogra> (thats done by lamont/infinity)
[01:08] <janeW> great
[01:08] <janeW> ogra: much better than we were last time :)
[01:08] <ogra> i had a workshop and talk last weekend at the essener linuxtage, which resulted in several people who want to join development now :)
[01:08] <janeW> EXCELLENT
[01:08] <janeW> ogra: do you think they will?
[01:08] <ogra> i.e. i have one guy who wants to take over ltsp-manager from me ;)
[01:08] <janeW> :)
[01:09] <ogra> the other ones are not this concrete ...
[01:09] <janeW> ogra: I see you got the thinclient-memory-usage spec to Approved.
[01:09] <ogra> spacey, worked with willow the last days ...
[01:09] <janeW> and faster-startup to Pending Reivew
[01:09] <ogra> thats next on my list ;)
[01:09] <janeW> so getting there
[01:10] <ogra> the specs are reviewed, and i have a list of changes from mdz to put into the two missing ones ....
[01:10] <ogra> after i made these changes they should get approved straight
[01:10] <ogra> the local device spec is still in drafting and will wait for a meeting between mdz, sbalneaves and me 
[01:11] <ogra> to decide what we do and what is feasable with it
[01:11] <ogra> its the one that requires most manpower (not only mine) and the one that had lowest prio from the beginning
[01:12] <janeW> ogra: are you setting up that meeting or must I?
[01:12] <jelkner> why lowest prio?
[01:12] <ogra> janeW, i can ...
[01:12] <jelkner> i would argue that without it, we really don't have edubuntu
[01:12] <ogra> jelkner, i dont make the prioritisation
[01:12] <janeW> ogra: please do if you can
[01:12] <janeW> I am drowning in LP, plans and spreadsheets
[01:12] <kjcole> who sets the priorities and how?  I would think it might be us... 
[01:12] <flint> local devices seem very "dapper".  is is  a  personpower issue or an approach isssue?
[01:12] <ogra> jelkner, you said we dont have edubuntu without content filtering
[01:13] <janeW> kjcole: us and mdz mainly
[01:13] <jelkner> ogra: yes, but that was until you gave me a different solution for that
[01:13] <ogra> jelkner, which is rather achieveable now ...
[01:13] <flint> ogra, actually that was my flawed vision about the content filtering...
[01:13] <jelkner> great!
[01:13] <ogra> since spacey took the task 
[01:13] <jelkner> i'm only reporting back feedback from the users
[01:13] <janeW> local devices are important
[01:14] <jelkner> everyone keeps asking "how can students save their work?"
[01:14] <jelkner> i don't know what to tell them yet
[01:14] <janeW> ogra: any more progress for the week?
[01:14] <ogra> sure, but still, the spec is low/mid prio and not ready yet 
[01:14] <jelkner> janeW: how do priorities get set?
[01:14] <ogra> we have some odd Xorg bugs currently so ltsp is broken, i had not enough tim yet due to my normal distro work ... i hope to have that fixed until next meeting
[01:15] <jelkner> is there a way to appeal a priority?
[01:15] <ogra> jelkner, thats a mdz/sabdfl thing
[01:15] <janeW> jelkner: mail me and I'll process it
[01:15] <jelkner> will do
[01:16] <flint> ogra, ollie, what can we do to help get local devices?  Are priorities disclosed on a wikki somewhere?
[01:16] <janeW> jelkner: I can raise the priority, but that won;t necessarily change the expectation of delivery, esp if there is a technical blocker
[01:16] <jelkner> understood
[01:16] <janeW> flint: it;s all on launchpad
[01:16] <janeW> jelkner: but I will support getting this done, because it is clearly needed
[01:16] <ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper-20051205-1.png shows the latest bootchart, mdz has the opinion we can cut down some (10?) seconds from X detection and Keybuk told me the over all speed might be cut down by 15sec so we're getting there
[01:16] <janeW> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable
[01:17] <flint> JaneW, actually it is all on my computer, thanks for the specifics ollie!
[01:17] <ogra> flint, learn dbus programming :P
[01:17] <janeW> flint: there's no dreaded wiki table this time
[01:17] <ogra> thats one of the blockers, i'm not into dbus enough that i'd trust my skills to do it alone ...
[01:18] <ogra> but since most of the other specs are done alread i'll have lots of time to concentrate on the device suff ...
[01:18] <janeW> flint: ogra and I are somewhat constrained by mdz's call wrt priority etc
[01:19] <ogra> but i dont give promises for specs that arent even running as a proof of concept locally for me, please understand that
[01:19] <flint> yeah verily, we require a Jedi, and they are in short supply...
[01:19] <janeW> bring em on
[01:19] <jelkner> i have to leave in 10 minutes, any chance we can sneek in a quick documentation report?
[01:19] <janeW> yes jelkner go ahead
[01:20] <ogra> goby is still waiting for a review from pitti, so we most likely wont see it on the flight2 CD
[01:20] <jelkner> kjcole and i have been meeting each weekend to work on the cookbook
[01:20] <ogra> ok, i'm done
[01:20] <jelkner> here is where we are:
[01:20] <flint> jelkner, you are SUCH a whiner...go ahead :^)
[01:20] <jelkner> 1. we've taken the original source and convereted it to plain text
[01:21] <jelkner> 2. we have edited the first 2 chapters, removing tuxlab specific stuff
[01:21] <janeW> jelkner/ kjcole - sounds good :)
[01:21] <jelkner> 3. we are planning to use lore to mark it up so we can have quick, web ready copy
[01:21] <janeW> jelkner: is it quite a chore?
[01:21] <jelkner> 4. we will finish removing tuxlab specific stuff the next few weeks
[01:22] <juliux_> hi all
[01:22] <kjcole> 1.5 We've broken it into several separate files, basically along chapter lines.
[01:22] <jelkner> 5. then we will begin adding edubuntu specific information
[01:22] <jelkner> so it is a build down and then build up process
[01:22] <jelkner> one thing to keep in mind that effects artwork
[01:22] <zakame> jedi!
[01:22] <janeW> jelkner: sounds very logical and sequential
[01:22] <ogra> jelkner, i aksed kjcole yesterday already, i'd like to have regular reviews of the tech stuff in there, the tuxlabs technical side is quite different from our implementation ...
[01:23] <jelkner> if we want the book out by dapper release
[01:23] <jelkner> it would be very helpful if we could have the artwork at least a few weeks early
[01:23] <janeW> hi mhz: congrats re CC membership
[01:23] <jelkner> so we can include screen shots with the correct artwork
[01:23] <ogra> jelkner, we have an artwork deadline in the release schedule
[01:23] <janeW> jelkner: you need new artwork?
[01:23] <jelkner> thats all i have
[01:23] <ogra> thats some weeks before the doc deadline afaikl
[01:23] <mhz> thanx janeW
[01:23] <kjcole> ogra, the tuxLab cookbook made me curious about "wizzy" (which I assume is one of those differences)
[01:24] <jelkner> no, i mean whatever artwork dapper will have
[01:24] <ogra> jelkner, yes
[01:24] <ogra> thats what i talked about
[01:24] <janeW> jelkner: ok fair enough, screenshots would make sense, do you need to change or add to the illustrations too?
[01:24] <jelkner> great
[01:24] <jelkner> add to
[01:24] <ogra> there are two weeks between artwork and doc deadline for exactly this purpose
[01:24] <jelkner> mostly screenshots
[01:24] <jelkner> excellent
[01:24] <janeW> wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule <- for dates
[01:25] <jelkner> ok, i'm finished
[01:25] <janeW> jelkner: excellnt, I am very please to hear there's been progress with this :))
[01:25] <kjcole> I've contacted both the original (?) author and illustrator, and buttered them up, but haven't asked for anything. 
[01:25] <janeW> thanks 2 you both for taking you w/e for this .
[01:25] <janeW> kjcole: have they responded and been friendly?
[01:25] <kjcole> I get the impression they'd be willing, provided there's time.
[01:25] <janeW> kjcole: awesome
[01:26] <kjcole> janeW: Both replied very positively.
[01:26] <janeW> :)
[01:26] <flint> jelkner, I recall that the original tuxlab docs had a lot in them about physical infastructure, how are you handling this in transition to dapper ubuntu 
[01:26] <ogra> flint, we should keep it ...
[01:26] <janeW> agreed
[01:26] <jelkner> we will keep it
[01:26] <kjcole> Also, as I said in e-mail a bit premature, but just something to keep in the back of heads: When/If hardcopy publishing, perhaps Lulu Press...
[01:26] <jelkner> but edubuntu will be more specific
[01:26] <janeW>  we should also have hardware specs in there, we get asked about that alot
[01:26] <ogra> the physical stuff will be the ame everywhere
[01:26] <mhz> janeW: I am running to a meeting (2 actually) I am sorry I am not here today. However, I have just sent an email to the ML where I report on everything I have been upto.
[01:27] <jelkner> to the distro
[01:27] <jelkner> tuxlab is a project, not a distro
[01:27] <ogra> janeW, they should be on the website 
[01:27] <janeW> mhz: great, thanks
[01:27] <jelkner> so it was more general
[01:27] <janeW> yes, understood
[01:28] <jelkner> ok, folks, i need to run...
[01:28] <janeW> ok any more of the documentation?
[01:28] <jelkner> same time next week
[01:28] <ogra> yup
[01:28] <janeW> thanks jelkner , have a good day
[01:28] <jelkner> bye
[01:28] <flint> later jeff...thanks.
[01:28] <ogra> bye
[01:28] <janeW> ogra: I presume other docs like about edubuntu etc will come later in the cycle, it;s still a bit early for that now
[01:28] <ogra> yup
[01:29] <janeW> howevere I see ubuntu has a release note page up, to gather stuff as it happens, should we do the same?
[01:29] <ogra> mdz has put up a dapper release notes page, we should probably do that too now
[01:29] <ogra> heh
[01:29] <janeW> ok, I'll do that
[01:29] <janeW> ok artwork?
[01:29] <kjcole> We're meeting once a week, and lore's pretty simple as markup.  One thing is it doesn't (yet) produce an index, though I understand that's in progress too.  That's it from me and documentation.
[01:29] <janeW> is there any one here to talk about that?
[01:30] <ogra> mhz is gone ....
[01:30] <ogra> any news from the canonical side ? 
[01:30] <ogra> for the professional stuff ? 
[01:30] <janeW> ogra: no nothing yet. silbs is still not back in the office, so I don;t expect anything till she is back and settled
[01:30] <flint> lore is best found with the search term python-lore...
[01:31] <kjcole> lore is the Twisted Python's built-in documentation stuff for their docs, converts to HTML, LaTeX, and a couple of others I think.
[01:31] <ogra> i'd still like to know if we get pro artwork for all three age stages we'll have
[01:31] <janeW> has anyone responded to the recent mailing list messages offering help?
[01:31] <flint> the neat thing about lore is that it is default installed in the badger by default :^)
[01:32] <janeW> I know mhz is doing great things in the spanish speaking commmunities, but we need to harness the english speaking offers of help too
[01:32] <kjcole> toxictoadz has been approved as a member of the Edubuntu Cookbook Cooks, but I haven't written back yet.
[01:32] <mhz> janeW: harness, how do you see it?
[01:32] <janeW> ogra: re art, I'll try to get an answer on that soon... by the way do you agree that the 3 designs should be 1) Junior, 2) senior 3) Plain ?
[01:33] <ogra> yes
[01:33] <kjcole> (and mhz... well, he's already here, isn't he. ;-)  He's also a cook.)
[01:33] <flint> janeW, is there leather involved :^)
[01:34] <janeW> glad there are so many cooks... dont spoil the book :P
[01:34] <kjcole> janeW, (I think the e-mail you were referring to was from toxictoadz)
[01:34] <ogra> and beware the salt :)
[01:34] <flint> janeW, I mean about the harnessing...can you point to a page about the levels Jane?
[01:35] <ogra> flint, its on the meeting records 
[01:35] <ogra> the part from ubz 
[01:35] <mhz> flint: thx for harnessing question.. I hadn't got that either
[01:35] <mhz> oops
[01:35] <janeW> flint: levels?
[01:36] <ogra> hmm, it actually isnt ...
[01:36] <flint> janeW, I mean designs
[01:36] <janeW> I was talking about toxictoad and Babak Manssouri  and any others that come along
[01:37] <janeW> flint: sorry I am not understanding you today
[01:37] <kjcole> toxictoadz looks to be more of a translation and artwork person
[01:37] <ogra> flint, the artwork package will be configurable to select between 3 age levels ...
[01:37] <ogra> there is no further magic involved :)
[01:37] <janeW> by harness I meant if someone offers help, grab them and suck them dry....
[01:37] <janeW> (joking) but make the most of it...
[01:37] <flint> janeW, the 3 designs should be 1) Junior, 2) senior 3) Plain these are the levels... 
[01:37] <ogra> flint, since we'll get a professional designer i cant say much more 
[01:38] <janeW> flint: Ahhh I understand the levels now...
[01:38] <flint> janeW, is levels an appropriate term?
[01:38] <janeW> flint: it's not much more that that for now, so we are starting with a clean slate... what we have now (apart from wallpaper) is liked for junior
[01:38] <janeW> flint: looks?
[01:39] <flint> janeW, it's ok nobody understands me (SIGH!:^)
[01:39] <kjcole> janeW, I must have missed Babak Manssouri.  I haven't paid as much attention to the artwork e-mails.  Do you recall if he (I'm assuming "he") was artwork or text or unspecified?
[01:39] <ogra> the mid ager will require a icon set decision ...
[01:40] <janeW> has anything happned with the a11y stuff?
[01:40] <flint> ogra, ollie will this require a choice screen in the installer?
[01:40] <flint> janeW, what ally?
[01:40] <ogra> janeW, they are working on a liveCD for massachusets afaik
[01:40] <janeW> ogra: ok
[01:40] <ogra> flint, yes
[01:40] <Kamion> flint: I certainly hope not
[01:41] <Kamion> ogra: please discuss that with me, that's very suboptimal
[01:41] <ogra> it needs to
[01:41] <janeW> flint a11y = accessability (apparently)
[01:41] <kjcole> flint, ally = accessibility
[01:41] <Kamion> (later)
[01:41] <ogra> yup
[01:41] <flint> janeW, Ally = my wife.
[01:41] <janeW> ogra: are we doing edubuntu express at all?
[01:41] <ogra> flint, thats an 11 not ll
[01:41] <kjcole> flint, is she accessible?  ;-)
[01:41] <janeW> flint: so is she accessible?
[01:41] <janeW> *duck*
[01:42] <ogra> janeW, it will be on the liveCD, so yes ....
[01:42] <flint> you all are bad people...
[01:42] <kjcole> janeW, great minds...
[01:42] <janeW> kjcole: *high five*
[01:42] <ogra> janeW, but that will install only the workstation version
[01:42] <janeW> ogra: oic, ok makes sense
[01:42] <janeW> btw did you all see you slachdot mention?
[01:42] <ogra> janeW, i dont plan a specific edubuntu version
[01:42] <janeW> ogra: and someone NEEDS to mention LTSP there
[01:43] <janeW> s/c/s
[01:43] <kjcole> Nice! And that guy Greg Philips? who did the nice review in his blog...
[01:43] <janeW> yes :)
[01:43] <flint> ogra, ollie what the heck is up in Massachusetts?  
[01:43] <janeW> ok we are chatting again - which is fine as long as someone isn't waiting to talk about something important...
[01:44] <ogra> flint, they are in the decision process to switch theor municipalities ...
[01:44] <ogra> to linux
[01:44] <flint> janew, I think the slashdot piece repudiated your graphic choices...
[01:44] <ogra> or some other stuff ...
[01:45] <flint> ogra, I am in the next state over.  let me know who/how I can get involved please.
[01:45] <kjcole> Since we're just chatting, any thoughts/post-Dapper+x fantasies regarding publication or is that a Doc Team question?  
[01:45] <ogra> flint, no idea .... i only know that they wahted to look at ubuntu but require full a11y support
[01:46] <kjcole> Also, not sure of the appropriate meeting: I've been in touch with a friend who
[01:46] <ogra> so the a11y team tries to provide a liveCD to test ...
[01:46] <ogra> flint, you might want to contact TheMuso or dholbach about it
[01:46] <flint> kjcole, publish or perish eh?  I see the connection know between ally and dapper.  Thanks ollie for the contact names.
[01:47] <janeW> flint: I didn't get that... but I was hearing pl saying it's nothing but a different desktop, completey missing the LTSP component
[01:47] <march> hi@all
[01:47] <janeW> kjcole: for the cookbook you mean?
[01:47] <kjcole> is blind and was a professional Braille proofreader for the Library of Congress.  He's peripherally helping with both a11y and helping me make connections with LoC to get a cookbook officially part of their collection...
[01:47] <ogra> janeW, i saw people mentioning the LTSP 
[01:48] <kjcole> janeW: The cookbook in particular, but other stuff as well possibly.
[01:48] <janeW> kjcole: if we make it rock we can may be convince the sabd to publish it
[01:49] <flint> janeW, the Slashdot review really played up the angle of a distro for geek children.  This is hitting the nail on the head (or in this case geekletts ont he head :^)
[01:49] <kjcole> janeW: Ah.  Well, then that *potentially* simplifies things.
[01:50] <janeW> flint: agreed
[01:50] <flint> kjcole, jez kevin, if you write a good book, somone will publish the silly thing.  Keep your shirt on and write!
[01:50] <mhz> ok, sorry you all, gotta run!
[01:50] <mhz> bye
[01:50] <flint> mdz, thanks!
[01:51] <dholbach> flint: i guess that dcc didn't work through my router/firewall-thingie
[01:51] <flint> janeW, ok enough stroking jane, what's next on your dreaded agenda?
[01:52] <flint> dholbach, what dcc thing my man?
[01:52] <dholbach> flint: you made a dcc chat request?
[01:52] <Kamion> janeW: 2am surely ...
[01:52] <ogra> flint, artwork is always last :)
[01:52] <janeW> the ones that moaned about not enough time are not even here this week, and so we have extra time.
[01:52] <janeW> Kamion: 4am for me (UTC +2)
[01:52] <Kamion> oh, didn't realise .za was so far ahead
[01:52] <janeW> Kamion: yup
[01:53] <ogra> just for the record, we have a popular contributor to edubuntu, linus sent a little app :)
[01:53] <janeW> Kamion: you wanna add anything esle to edubuntu?
[01:53] <Kamion> nope
[01:53] <janeW> ogra: oh yes!
[01:53] <janeW> ogra: he hasn't responded to me yet...
[01:53] <ogra> its a cool thingie but has an awful gui :)
[01:53] <Kamion> only comment really is that adding installer questions is non-trivially awkward, and with the live installer you have to design two UIs
[01:53] <Kamion> I'd really very strongly recommend making it easily switchable after install instead
[01:53] <Kamion> (you have to do that anyway)
[01:54] <janeW> Kamion: ITA
[01:54] <Kamion> the ltsp hack for edubuntu breezy nearly managed to break ubuntu netboot
[01:54] <ogra> Kamion, yes, we can decide on a defaulut ...
[01:54] <Kamion> and only didn't by dumb luck
[01:54] <janeW> ogra: do you agree, we should have a default and then make it switchable after install?
[01:54] <Kamion> janeW: ITA?
[01:54] <ogra> janeW, see above :)
[01:54] <janeW> I Tend to Agree
[01:54] <flint> dholbach, sorry I am a nubie re dcc...
[01:54] <Kamion> ah, ok
[01:55] <dholbach> flint: don't worry :)
[01:55] <kjcole> ogra, thingie? More specific?
[01:55] <ogra> Kamion, and i'm not sure if we want to keep the ltsp hack.... it doesnt make sense for multiarch ltsp
[01:55] <janeW> flint: and with me you are either stroked or whipped - take your pick :P
[01:56] <ogra> kjcole, it logs out a given user afer a certain amount of time ... 
[01:56] <ogra> and shows a timer ....
[01:56] <ogra> (the time is written in tcl and looks awful, the tool iself is very cool)
[01:56] <ogra> *timer
[01:57] <Kamion> ogra: I can see more justification for ltsp-client-builder
[01:57] <flint> Kamion, you are not refering to the "lotr" patch when you talk of an ltsp hack are you?
[01:57] <Kamion> flint: no
[01:57] <ogra> Kamion, i'd rather have http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/ for post install action
[01:57] <flint> Kamion, gotcha.
[01:58] <ogra> so you can select the target arch for the clients
[01:58] <Kamion> it's just technically difficult at the moment to have different installer flow for different flavours (ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu), for pretty much the same reason as we can't have different base systems for different flavours; a lot of it's done by priority in the archive and we don't have per-flavour priorities
[01:58] <Kamion> flint: referring to the thing in the Edubuntu installer that builds an LTSP client chroot during install
[01:58] <ogra> Kamion, but thats neither speced nor do i put time into it currently, its only a base for community contributions
[01:58] <flint> Kamion, i am on the page thanks
[01:59] <Kamion> ogra: integrating that into the live installer would be sane I think, but probably dapper+1
[01:59] <ogra> yes
[01:59] <ogra> thats what its planned for 
[01:59] <ogra> (dapper+1)
[02:00] <kjcole> Tick-tock... Time for me to run to work so I can make the A11y Team meeting.  (Someday, maybe I'll do work for my office again too...) 
[02:00] <ogra> i did only the glade stuff and the worst backend part (dhcp...) te rest is for community contribution and has a non predictable deadline
[02:01] <ogra> janeW, meeting done ? 
[02:02] <janeW> yup thanks guys
[02:02] <ogra> thanks janeW :)
[02:02] <janeW> everyone OUT ;P
[02:02] <flint> janeW thanks.  will hang for the ally meeting here.
[02:02] <kjcole> janeW, thanks for having us. ;-)
[02:03] <flint> janeW, meeting next week same leather time same leather channel?
[02:03] <kjcole> Flint, a11y's not for an hour and a half *I HOPE* (I'm at home and need food on the way to work)
[02:04] <flint> kjcole, gotcha I will be back in 90 minutes then.  thanks kevin. 
[02:04] <kjcole> Later all...
[02:04] <pburkholder>  /leave 
[02:45] <highvoltage> pong
[03:27] <TheMuso> Hey kjcole.
[03:27] <kjcole> Hiya, kidz.
[03:27] <dholbach> hey
[03:28] <kjcole> jbaily, baaaaaah humbug?
[03:28] <jsgotangco> dee dum
[03:28] <kjcole> s/jbaily/jbailey/
[03:28] <jbailey> kjcole, Well.  It's the only noise I ever seen a kid game. =)
[03:29] <kjcole> jbailey, ah. touche.
[03:31] <TheMuso> We still don't have Henrik.
[03:31] <jsgotangco> meeting started?
[03:31] <TheMuso> Don't think so.
[03:32] <jbailey> I was chatting with him a while ago and he was going off to lunch.  I'd expect him back RSN.
[03:32] <dholbach> right
[03:32] <TheMuso> jbailey: Thanks.
[03:32] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[03:32] <dholbach> everybody can check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamMeetingAgenda in the meantime
[03:32] <dholbach> ROCK
[03:32] <TheMuso> Yes please do. THere have been some additions to it.
[03:32] <jsgotangco> speaking of henrik...
[03:32] <hno73> hello all!
[03:32] <TheMuso> Welcome Jason. Nice to have you along.
[03:32] <jsgotangco> hi henrik
[03:33] <TheMuso> Hey Henrik.
[03:33] <jgrieves> hi Luke :)
[03:33] <dholbach> hi everybody
[03:33] <dholbach> everybody had a brief glimpse on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamMeetingAgenda ?
[03:33] <jgrieves> us low vision people need at least 7 hours of sleep to function properly
[03:33] <dholbach> who proposed the first topic?
[03:34] <TheMuso> I think that may have been stuff from last meeting.
[03:34] <dholbach> oh yes
[03:34] <dholbach> we proceed to the 2nd item
[03:34] <dholbach> TheMuso: that's yours, right?
[03:34] <TheMuso> But did we talk about use cases much, or look into them?
[03:35] <TheMuso> Should we now?
[03:35] <dholbach> we can do that as well
[03:35] <TheMuso> Ok.
[03:35] <jsgotangco> hrmm
[03:35] <dholbach> jsgotangco: ...? :)
[03:35] <hno73> Oh, sorry. I think I proposed most of the points without name :p
[03:35] <jsgotangco> i like the idea of #2
[03:35] <jsgotangco> im looking at the site now
[03:36] <hno73> 1-5 really :)
[03:36] <dholbach> hno73: don't worry :)
[03:36] <TheMuso> Jason Grieves, who is fortunate enough to be present at this meeting has been writing some documentation about using Ubuntu with the various accessibility apps. You can grab a copy from http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility. It is a text file.
[03:36] <jsgotangco> i have a windows partition i'll experiment on this tommorow
[03:36] <TheMuso> I think we ort to get one or two people to look over it, and wiki it. It is a great starting point.
[03:37] <zakame> hello all
[03:37] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Anything you want to add, please do so, or feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
[03:37] <jgrieves> agreed, i'd like to get some people to work with me on it
[03:37] <dholbach> is it kind of a test plan?
[03:37] <jgrieves> we need pictures, more step by step
[03:37] <dholbach> or a howto?
[03:37] <jgrieves> descriptions of each preference and how it affects the system
[03:37] <dholbach> or maybe we could use it for both
[03:37] <dholbach> jgrieves: it looks fairly comprehensive
[03:38] <jsgotangco> it does
[03:38] <jgrieves> dholbach there wasn't much on th eweb, besides Sun's accessiblity guide
[03:38] <jsgotangco> i can start moving this to code
[03:38] <dholbach> *nod*
[03:38] <jgrieves> which was difficult for me to use 
[03:38] <dholbach> it looks cool, maybe something for the doc-team too
[03:38] <jgrieves> because i need to know what was good for low vision people
[03:38] <dholbach> jgrieves: well done
[03:38] <jgrieves> i had to filter through their stuff, and eventually decided to just write my own
[03:39] <TheMuso> Yeah thats right. The docs for GNOME accessibility are either very hard to find, or out of date.
[03:39] <jsgotangco> pretty much
[03:39] <dholbach> *nod*
[03:39] <TheMuso> ,pst;u
[03:39] <TheMuso> mostly
[03:39] <jgrieves> there are some updated items that we can use for user cases
[03:39] <jgrieves> such as full screen magnification, which i have tested for a couple of hours
[03:39] <jgrieves> which actually works much better than split screen
[03:39] <dholbach> i can send a reminder (wiki-ing it) and the link to the mailing list later
[03:39] <TheMuso> Ok.
[03:40] <jsgotangco> nice
[03:40] <hno73> Yeah. It looks great!
[03:40] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Have you a wiki/launchpad account?
[03:40] <jsgotangco> i'll start moving this to source too
[03:40] <jgrieves> yep Luke
[03:40] <TheMuso> Good.
[03:40] <hno73> It would be cool to put it on-line and perhaps persuaded he abilitynet people to put it on their site too
[03:40] <hno73> as an alternative to the Windows guides
[03:40] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:41] <jgrieves> yeah it really needs to be dynamic by beling able to click links and such
[03:41] <hno73> before you know it it will be on the BBC computer help pages
[03:41] <jgrieves> i.e. in low vision section and want to get ot gnopernicus
[03:41] <TheMuso> I noticed that some instructions used the terminal. Should we consider putting instructions in for using synaptec?
[03:41] <mpt> the Windows guides are boringly exhaustive :-)
[03:41] <hno73> mpt: you think too much so?
[03:41] <dholbach> added it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/Links as well
[03:41] <kjcole> I've dug up another possible resource: National Center for Accessible Media (NCAM) at: http://ncam.wgbh.org/
[03:41] <TheMuso> Cool.
[03:42] <mpt> hno73, yeah, last time I looked there were about 30 pages, about 90% being exactly the same in each one
[03:42] <dholbach> i forgot... which agenda point are we on :)
[03:42] <TheMuso> AFAIK 2.
[03:42] <dholbach> ah ok, 2nd, right
[03:42] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:42] <hno73> mpt: cool. I'll feed that back to them (or we'll just make ours better)
[03:43] <linbetwin> hello, everyone! Can anyone participate in this meeting? Hello, Jason! you're the only one I know here
[03:43] <dholbach> linbetwin: sure, it's public
[03:43] <dholbach> linbetwin: welcome
[03:43] <jsgotangco> linbetwin, welcome
[03:43] <jgrieves> greetings
[03:43] <TheMuso> linbetwin: welcome. You are a work collegue of Jason's?
[03:43] <TheMuso> Either way, thanks for joining us.
[03:43] <linbetwin> no. I wrote to him about gnopernicus
[03:44] <TheMuso> Ah right.
[03:44] <dholbach> ok, so we agreed on wiki-ing it and maybe feeding it to the doc-team (jerome)? :)
[03:44] <jsgotangco> shove it to me
[03:44] <dholbach> and maybe use it as a starting point for testplans
[03:44] <TheMuso> Note that this is for breezy I think.
[03:44] <TheMuso> the doc that is.
[03:44] <jsgotangco> the doc looks a bit terse but can be improved
[03:44] <TheMuso> Yeah, a little fleshing out probably. Thats what I thought.
[03:45] <jgrieves> jsgotangco agreed
[03:45] <dholbach> shall we proceed the the 3rd item?
[03:45] <jsgotangco> okay
[03:45] <TheMuso> Fine with me.
[03:45] <dholbach> ok
[03:45] <dholbach> next up are bounty ideas
[03:45] <dholbach> hno73: you mean, real bounties? like paying for them and everything?
[03:46] <TheMuso> What is X-10 support anyone?
[03:46] <hno73> dholbach: yeah, we can propose them to the pool right?
[03:46] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[03:46] <jbailey> TheMuso, X10 gear I'm familiar with is for home automation.
[03:46] <hno73> There is/was a dormat AT bounty in there that was too vague
[03:46] <jsgotangco> should we do specs?
[03:46] <jsgotangco> jbailey, that evil X10 camera thing that started it all?
[03:46] <TheMuso> hno73: It was way to big a task.
[03:47] <jsgotangco> X10 is quite old but reliable
[03:47] <dholbach> we need specs for those, but we need to split up, what could be TODO items for the team
[03:47] <hno73> I'v got some X10 hardware I can send to anyone who wants to try
[03:47] <jbailey> jsgotangco, Dunno.  The X10 stuff I used was for remote power cycling based on serial commands.
[03:47] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:47] <jbailey> jsgotangco, That was about a decade ago, though.
[03:47] <jsgotangco> that's the X10 alright
[03:47] <hno73> TheMuso: You mean the one from 6 months ago, or whatever, yeah
[03:47] <TheMuso> hno73: Yes.
[03:48] <jbailey> jsgotangco, It's how we did remote power control on the FSFs servers. =)
[03:48] <jsgotangco> hno73, linux has good X10 support?
[03:48] <jsgotangco> ohhh
[03:48] <dholbach> can anybody tell me, what we need to do about x10 in ubuntu?
[03:48] <jsgotangco> control appliances via ubuntu?
[03:49] <flint> note that X10 has two standards, the old and the new.
[03:49] <jsgotangco> the only X10 i have ever used is a camera
[03:49] <flint> X10 version 1  is an ac line type of unidirectional addressable power control
[03:49] <kjcole> flint, how new is "new"?
[03:49] <dholbach> we should first investigate, if there's existing code, we could use
[03:49] <flint> X10 version 2 is bidirectional and way better
[03:49] <hno73> so you can use it to switch on lights, open doors, etc. cool stuff for mobility impairment folks
[03:50] <hno73> attaches with a box to your serial port
[03:50] <flint> new is my version of new.  EG IBM MVS is "new"
[03:50] <TheMuso> There is an x10 package in breezy and would be in dapper as well.
[03:50] <hno73> it's fairly cheap comodity stuff
[03:50] <flint> hno73, and not all that reliable...
[03:50] <kjcole> flint, then I'm afraid to ask how old "old" is. 
[03:50] <hno73> there are some simple CLI tools for running the switches
[03:51] <jsgotangco> cli...
[03:51] <dholbach> hno73: do you have experience, how well the package works?
[03:51] <hno73> flint: how's that? you mean with interference on the el-net?
[03:51] <kjcole> jsgotangco, is that a question? If so Command Line Interface.
[03:51] <linbetwin> As I wrote to Jason, I'm trying to use gnopernicus+gnome-mag, but it only follows the text cursor in the rerminal and gedit and it shows some ugly black patches when moved. This does not happen in kmag, but kmag doesn't follow text editing at all. I tried to make a demo using istanbul but it didn't work. Is there any hope that will improve in Dapper?
[03:51] <hno73> I think the simple package works well, but the gui stuff is more random
[03:52] <jsgotangco> kjcole, nope...i meant i'm not really into cli for this stuff...
[03:52] <flint> I used X10 years ago under windo$e...
[03:52] <hno73> See: http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/
[03:52] <flint> I will look at it under breezy...
[03:52] <dholbach> linbetwin: if we write bugreports to the gnome folks, then probably
[03:52] <jgrieves> linbetwin we may have some solutions for you in a bit, Luke is working on a new gnome-mag
[03:52] <hno73> Linux Home Automation project
[03:52] <flint> gotcha...
[03:52] <jsgotangco> ohhh
[03:52] <jgrieves> linbetwin i'll ping you after meeting
[03:52] <TheMuso> jgrieves: You referring to the XDamage bug?
[03:52] <kjcole> jsgotangco, ah.
[03:53] <jgrieves> Luke yes
[03:53] <TheMuso> Well nothing more on the bug front has happened yet.
[03:53] <dholbach> hno73: we should investigate in the links there to know, if there's software we can include? does that make sense?
[03:53] <jgrieves> may be able to get linbetwin to test package?
[03:54] <linbetwin> sure, what package?
[03:55] <hno73> dholbach: sure. I'm sure there is. When I say flaky, I mean, written in Perl, kludgy user interface, etc.
[03:55] <dholbach> *nod* better than nothing :)
[03:55] <dholbach> something to start from :)
[03:55] <hno73> It might be better to take the CLI tools and make a very simple and pretty interface in python
[03:55] <dholbach> i added it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/TODO
[03:55] <hno73> ... for example. just ideas
[03:56] <dholbach> what about "high visibility themes"?
[03:56] <TheMuso> I have been talking back and forth between jgrieves and dholbach  about themes stuff, particularly mouse cursors.
[03:56] <flint> hno73, the X10 version one el-net had some problem finding the "zero cross" all the time.  Let me revisit this.
[03:56] <hno73> I don't think we even have large mouse cursors ATM do we?
[03:57] <jgrieves> dholbach i covered some of that in guide
[03:57] <TheMuso> hno73: xcursor-themes
[03:57] <TheMuso> But could do with a bit of work
[03:57] <dholbach> jgrieves: ok, cool
[03:57] <jgrieves> yep and a few others i found like a high contrast cursor package
[03:57] <TheMuso> One other problem is that the cursor returns to normal size when the mouse shows FireFox loading a page.
[03:57] <dholbach> maybe we could have a accessibility meta-package, which pulls in stuff that might be useful?
[03:57] <jgrieves> we could develop xcursor-accessibiliy-theme
[03:57] <dholbach> if we could decide on software, i'd take care of it
[03:57] <hno73> TheMuso: right, so that 'bit of work' is what needs doing
[03:58] <jgrieves> dholbach yeah exactly what i was thinking
[03:58] <TheMuso> hno73: I think so yeah.
[03:58] <dholbach> cool
[03:58] <hno73> there are bits floating around on kde-look, etc
[03:58] <dholbach> i'll add it to todo
[03:58] <hno73> but we need to bring it together in one place
[03:58] <hno73> Icons with good contrast
[03:58] <hno73> large X-cursors, etc
[03:58] <TheMuso> Yeah. A large black cursor should be created as well.
[03:58] <jgrieves> hno73 the accessibilty themes are pretty good
[03:58] <jgrieves> just no cursors
[03:59] <hno73> jgrieves: OK, cool. so that's 90% done then :)
[03:59] <jgrieves> if someone wanted to tackle making an ubuntu accessibility theme
[03:59] <dholbach> it'd be great, if say  a11y-visual  would pull in  gnome-mag  and  xcursor-themes  -  does that make sense?
[04:00] <jsgotangco> can we package those themes or at least the settings?
[04:00] <jgrieves> there isn't anything like that of course, reverting to gnome-accessibiiity make it look like gnome simple theme
[04:00] <TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah but gnome-mag needs a front-end to use it, i.e gnopernicus.
[04:00] <dholbach> TheMuso: yeah... i was just thinking loudly
[04:00] <dholbach> :)
[04:00] <jgrieves> what about an entire accessibity meta package?
[04:00] <TheMuso> right.
[04:00] <dholbach> jgrieves: exactly
[04:00] <jgrieves> brings in everything
[04:00] <dholbach> i added it to the todo page
[04:01] <TheMuso> But what if the user doesn't want speech stuff for example.
[04:01] <jgrieves> turned off by default?
[04:01] <linbetwin> exactly
[04:01] <TheMuso> What about if the user wants it?
[04:01] <kjcole> Speaking of themes: When making icons, make them as unambiguous as possible.  (I don't know what that means practically, but consider it as icons are made.)
[04:01] <hno73> So now we need a control panel :)
[04:01] <TheMuso> My point is, a metapackage is not the sollution for everybody.
[04:01] <jgrieves> Luke, uninstallt?
[04:01] <dholbach> we can have different meta packages
[04:02] <TheMuso> Yeah perhaps.
[04:02] <dholbach> that's why i suggested    a11y-visual
[04:02] <TheMuso> Yeah that would be ok.
[04:02] <jgrieves> some low vision users want a magnifier and a screen reader
[04:02] <hno73> Yeah, I think 4-5 metapavkages are a good idea
[04:02] <dholbach> DesktopTeam/MetaPackage
[04:02] <hno73> they can overlap of course
[04:02] <dholbach> we can use that for discussion
[04:02] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[04:02] <jgrieves> we just don't want to overwhelm the choices
[04:02] <jgrieves> with someoen who might not be familiar with AT
[04:02] <dholbach> i'm happy to prepare those packages once we have an agreement
[04:02] <kjcole> For example, I find a magnifying glass for zoom and a pair of binoculars for search to be ambiguous and interchangable... sort of.
[04:03] <kjcole> (I'm not saying those appear in Ubuntu anywhere, but I know I've seen them somewhere in M$ Windoze apps.)
[04:04] <hno73> dholbach: cool. I'll do some thinking on DesktopTeam/MetaPackage later as well
[04:04] <dholbach> hno73: ROCK
[04:04] <dholbach> we really need to investigate more, if there's other software/themes/... out there, we want to have
[04:04] <dholbach> this is the right time in the release cycle to get them included and tested
[04:05] <dholbach> so we have them for dapper
[04:05] <dholbach> we can test the test-livecds (if you don't want to upgrade to dapper)
[04:05] <dholbach> oh hang on... those won't be on the testcds
[04:05] <TheMuso> dholbach: Derivative.
[04:05] <jgrieves> this would resolve the gnopernicus w/o gnome-mag?
[04:06] <dholbach> yeah, but this takes time - stuff has to be packaged and uploaded anyways
[04:06] <dholbach> and this is something, i can do *now*
[04:06] <TheMuso> True.
[04:06] <jgrieves> i've answered that 2-3 times on gnome-accessibilty and boards
[04:06] <hno73> There is also the vmware option for testing
[04:06] <linbetwin> i can test on dapper
[04:06] <dholbach> livecd + installing universe packages over the net (synaptic) should be fine too
[04:07] <dholbach> so if you propose new software, i can try to get it packaged and uploaded
[04:07] <dholbach> but i need to know what :)
[04:07] <jgrieves> anyone tried emacspeak?
[04:07] <dholbach> i opened http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/NewSoftware for that
[04:07] <TheMuso> jgrieves: I personally don't think emacspeak should be considered for new users just yet.
[04:07] <dholbach> (those pages are all linked from  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam )
[04:08] <jgrieves> Luke is it in repopsitories at least? i'm thinking of power users
[04:08] <jgrieves> i'm not even sure i''m "power" enough to use emacs :)
[04:08] <dholbach> jgrieves: it is
[04:08] <TheMuso> It is in breezy, so it should be in dapper.
[04:08] <jgrieves> great thanks
[04:09] <dholbach> so we agree on looking for accessibility-related software and reporting it on the mailing list?
[04:09] <TheMuso> For themes/cursors? Yeah.
[04:09] <dholbach> ^---- *please* :)
[04:09] <jgrieves> yes
[04:09] <kjcole> dholbach, should my SpecialNeeds page be somehow moved into the AccessibilityTeam tree?
[04:09] <hno73> yes
[04:09] <dholbach> kjcole: seems to make sense
[04:09] <dholbach> cool
[04:09] <dholbach> shall we proceed to SpeechSynthesisProposal?
[04:10] <TheMuso> I am happy to if others are.
[04:10] <jgrieves> sure, but I think Luke should pass out his home made cookies first
[04:10] <dholbach> hehe
[04:10] <hno73> kjcole: can you look at using it to fles out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTesting/UserGroups ?
[04:11] <dholbach> hno73: SpeechSynthesisProposal was yours?
[04:12] <jsgotangco> festival not working good enough?
[04:12] <hno73> btw, I spoke with someone today who feels that Orca is about 1 year from being useable, so that may get a low priority still
[04:12] <kjcole> hno73, that looks like a good place for it.
[04:12] <TheMuso> hno73: The problem with Orca is there is no interface.
[04:12] <hno73> dholbach: It's Luke's ideas, but with critical comments from me :)
[04:12] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: It is a lot more sticky than that.
[04:12] <dholbach> hno73: i'm ready to package and include it anyway
[04:13] <hno73> dholbach: yay, beeding edge!
[04:13] <jsgotangco> i see
[04:13] <dholbach> hno73: i feel that it should be exposed to people, so upstream can get feedback from users
[04:13] <jsgotangco> true
[04:13] <hno73> dholbach: yep
[04:13] <dholbach> hno73: but we don't have to rely on it anyways
[04:13] <jgrieves> agreed i would like to do some testing with it
[04:13] <TheMuso> I won't repeat myself. Read that page, the top part at least to understand where I am coming from in regards to speech synthesis.
[04:13] <hno73> right, but the more we push it the faster it will grow
[04:14] <TheMuso> hno73: IMO it will end up being better than Gnopernicus.
[04:14] <jgrieves> it has the ability to script correct?  gnopernicus does not
[04:14] <hno73> TheMuso: Orca, you mean?
[04:14] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Correct. It is also getting gnome-mag support as well.
[04:15] <jgrieves> that's what make Jaws very powerful, if I understand corrrectly
[04:15] <TheMuso> hno73: Yes.
[04:15] <jgrieves> TheMuso i was un-aware of that, great
[04:15] <hno73> and it scripts in python, which is perfect for us
[04:15] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[04:16] <dholbach> :)
[04:16] <TheMuso> hno73: You will find that I have placed comments under your comments/queries in the synthesis proposal page.
[04:16] <flint> dare we groach the holy grail here, speach recognition?
[04:16] <mpt> rofl
[04:16] <jgrieves> heh
[04:16] <hno73> oh, I just now scrolled down :)
[04:17] <jsgotangco> wow that was a mouthful
[04:17] <jsgotangco> but nicely written
[04:18] <dholbach> the kernel discussion (speakup) should be taken with BenC
[04:18] <flint> oops /groach/approach/  heh
[04:18] <TheMuso> Yeah. I will bet he won't like the code either.
[04:19] <hno73> can alternative kernels go in Universe?
[04:20] <dholbach> hmmmmmmm
[04:20] <TheMuso> They could, but someone/people would have to rebuild them whenever security updates for mainline came out which is probably not a problem.
[04:20] <dholbach> alternative kernels are problematic
[04:20] <dholbach> because they require a lot of tending
[04:20] <TheMuso> dholbach: That is also true.
[04:20] <dholbach> (for each security fix, ...)
[04:21] <TheMuso> dholbach: But if it is only speakup we are introducing, it is just a matter of getting mainline, adding speakup, changing name etc, and rebuild/upload.
[04:21] <hno73> Yeah, I think we're looking at Launchpad features a year from now for that
[04:21] <dholbach> TheMuso: generally, yes
[04:22] <TheMuso> Luckily, speakup can be built as modules. If we can just get it included into the mainline, it won't get in the way for anybody who doesn't need it.
[04:22] <dholbach> maybe we should have the discussion on ubuntu-devel@
[04:22] <dholbach> so everybody else (we don't have here) could have his/her say
[04:23] <hno73> sounds good
[04:23] <TheMuso> The only problem with inclusion is that speakup is maintained in CVS of all places.
[04:23] <jgrieves> if the kernel folks at ubuntu are anything like at IBM, they dont like anyone touching their kernel :)
[04:23] <TheMuso> But it does keep up with current kernel development.
[04:24] <flint> I am interested in the connection between IBM and speakup, and will look into it offline later
[04:24] <TheMuso> Anybody else got any thoughts/suggestions? I understand that hno73 wants to break it down, but it is hard to do so because of the nature of the beast.
[04:24] <dholbach> flint: thank you
[04:24] <TheMuso> There is no connection between IBM and speakup AFAIK.
[04:24] <TheMuso> I am on the speakup list and there has been no mention of such things.
[04:24] <dholbach> i can only repeat myself: if there's something to package, so we can try it out, i can do that
[04:25] <jsgotangco> go dholbach
[04:25] <TheMuso> dholbach: If it si speech, it is my baby. :)
[04:25] <jgrieves> sorry for the confusion flint 
[04:25] <hno73> TheMuso: I will look at it again. These are complex questions.Let's continue on the wiki and mailing list
[04:25] <TheMuso> Ok good idea.
[04:25] <dholbach> ok
[04:25] <dholbach> on the orca item: i will package it
[04:25] <flint> TheMuso, gotcha, I thought that IBM had donated a lota the code to speakup
[04:25] <TheMuso> It is one of those things that requires long explanations in emails etc, or face to face talk.
[04:26] <hno73> ok, on to item 4
[04:26] <dholbach> TheMuso: i think the spec/wikipage is a good start for discussion
[04:26] <TheMuso> dholbach: As well as the list.
[04:26] <jgrieves> anyway we are going to make the instlal more accessible?  
[04:26] <jgrieves> for low vision?
[04:26] <dholbach> jgrieves: i'm not aware of that at the moment
[04:27] <jgrieves> posted @ list in resoponse to speakup
[04:27] <dholbach> if so, we need a proposal
[04:27] <hno73> UbuntuExpress could help there
[04:27] <TheMuso> It is a LOT of work.
[04:27] <jgrieves> its just tough for my friend steve who has 20/1700 who wants to install
[04:27] <TheMuso> hno73: Yes, but there is still d-i to consider.
[04:27] <jgrieves> and i dont particuarly like having my nose on the screen either :)
[04:27] <dholbach> hno73: ++
[04:27] <hno73> once you are booted in the live session, you can use a highviz theme
[04:28] <jgrieves> and a magnifier?
[04:28] <TheMuso> Ok how will a low vision user manage to read the blue and grey/white d-i screens?
[04:28] <hno73> The great boot vs. desktop debate :)
[04:28] <TheMuso> hno73: But it is getting to that state that could be a problem.
[04:28] <dholbach> we need a proposal on how to fix that
[04:29] <TheMuso> There is only one console magnification tool I know of, and it aint that great.
[04:29] <hno73> Yeah it needs to be separate proposals and have more detail, but we sre bgetting there :)
[04:29] <jgrieves> could u use speach for d-i stuff?
[04:29] <TheMuso> Yes.
[04:30] <dholbach> that's something we should discuss on the list too (once we have a proposal), because the people who would do the actual work are not here
[04:30] <jgrieves> i mean if its just ininital stuff, i know steve woudln't mind, that would be pretty slick too
[04:30] <TheMuso> dholbach: I am willing to help with speech installation/d-i stuff.
[04:30] <TheMuso> I really should spec out my thoughts and theories on it.
[04:30] <jgrieves> ok dholbach sounds good
[04:30] <dholbach> that's cool
[04:30] <jgrieves> dholbach accessibity-list?
[04:30] <jgrieves> accessibility
[04:31] <dholbach> yeah, and once we know where we want to go, we move it to ubuntu-devel@
[04:31] <jgrieves> ok, Luke are you going to handle both angles on that?
[04:31] <TheMuso> I will write my thoughts into a proposal/spec in the next day or so.
[04:31] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Well I haven't seen UbuntuExpress yet.
[04:31] <dholbach> i think that's something we should keep more in mind during our conversations: 1) what we need to spec, 2) who could do it, and 3) what we can do just now
[04:32] <dholbach> TheMuso: nobody has :)
[04:32] <TheMuso> I am only concerned with d-i atm, because the GNOME stuff will fall into place quit easily.
[04:32] <jgrieves> oh, i haven't either, that's why i was hoping it was more of your experise :)
[04:32] <hno73> TheMuso: do you think it's possible to split ghat page into at least 2 proposals though?
[04:32] <hno73> TheMuso: ok, cool
[04:32] <TheMuso> hno73: Yes I think so. Leave it with me.
[04:33] <hno73> alright. pt 4
[04:33] <TheMuso> What would access.ubuntu.com be useful for?
[04:33] <hno73> If this page ws working now http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu/
[04:34] <jgrieves> docuemtnation, accessibility forums?
[04:34] <jgrieves> blogs, development?
[04:34] <hno73> It would show the same multi-theme functionality as this http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/
[04:34] <hno73> a place to build community and momentum
[04:34] <TheMuso> Right.
[04:35] <hno73> and draw in AT people from accross the FOSS world :)
[04:35] <jgrieves> agreed the gnome-accessibility page is pretty bad
[04:35] <jgrieves> imo
[04:35] <jsgotangco> very bad imo
[04:35] <hno73> Sun has a good AT team, but no major distro has a deducated user-driven project
[04:35] <hno73> with mailing lists, forums, help pages, etc.
[04:36] <TheMuso> hno73: And even if we do this, I doubt that they will try to do the same.
[04:36] <dholbach> i think it's a nice idea, although i think that the team should be better organised, before "we go live"
[04:36] <jgrieves> with ubuntu being pushed into schools with edubuntu, i think AT will become critical with students iwth disabilties
[04:36] <TheMuso> Sun's team is more developer focused.
[04:36] <hno73> It's sort of sticking our flag in the ground 
[04:36] <TheMuso> dholbach: I agree.
[04:36] <dholbach> i don't want to be off-putting (if that's the word)
[04:37] <jgrieves> dholbach I agree
[04:37] <TheMuso> Not at all.
[04:37] <dholbach> but i'll get back to that in pt 6
[04:37] <hno73> dholbach: no, I see your point. I'm happy to develop this non-live for a few months
[04:37] <dholbach> cool
[04:37] <dholbach> :)
[04:37] <hno73> we can create content in the current wiki, etc
[04:37] <dholbach> yeah
[04:37] <dholbach> i like the idea
[04:38] <hno73> Timing is important :)
[04:38] <dholbach> absolutely
[04:38] <dholbach> point 5?
[04:38] <TheMuso> I have just had another docs idea, but will bring it up later on the list/wiki.
[04:38] <hno73> perhaps a month or so before dapper, when actually have some decent packages
[04:39] <hno73> ok, pt. 5
[04:39] <jsgotangco> shove all the docs to me :)
[04:39] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: It is not actual writing as such, well it is, but it isn't if you know what I mean.
[04:39] <dholbach> massachusetts :)
[04:39] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:39] <TheMuso> I will explain it later. A big email is needed for it. :)
[04:39] <dholbach> flint will be eager to hear abou it
[04:40] <dholbach> so who knows a bit more about the massachusetts situation?
[04:40] <TheMuso> On the KDE accessibility list today, a member of the KDE a11y team posted a summary of the meeting that he was at with others involved in the whole MA ODF mess. The users weren't very interested in UNIX/Linux/GNOME/KDE accessibility. They don't want to change.
[04:41] <TheMuso> I don't have permission to post it here, but I can ask, and put it up somewhere.
[04:41] <TheMuso> Even though Office 12 will force change on them.
[04:41] <dholbach> ok, so no ubuntu massachusetts love for now
[04:41] <hno73> most people don't want to change, but free CDs that 'just work' can help
[04:41] <jgrieves> haha
[04:41] <TheMuso> Yes, but what office suite can we back that works? There are none that work perfectly yet.
[04:42] <jgrieves> Luke, explain office 12?
[04:42] <Riddell> TheMuso: you could link to it
[04:42] <Riddell> http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-accessibility&m=113391263909828&w=2
[04:43] <TheMuso> Riddell: Ah yes, of course.
[04:43] <hno73> OK, this was just a random idea for how we might make a splash, but perhaps we should let it pass
[04:43] <kjcole> There was an old TV commercial in the states which had the tag line "You're soaking in it"... (I can elaborate later) but the point is Windoze users are already migrating slooowly.  Although Linux isn't accepted yet, Firefox, Thunderbird, The GIMP and OpenOffice are all starting to get a lot of airplay on Windoze boxes.
[04:43] <hno73> We have more technical fish to fry ATM :)
[04:44] <dholbach> hno73: technical fish :)
[04:44] <dholbach> but i agree :)
[04:44] <TheMuso> So do I.
[04:44] <kjcole> hno73: Exactly.
[04:44] <hno73> OK, pt 6?
[04:44] <dholbach> ok
[04:44] <dholbach> i created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam
[04:44] <flint> dholbach, thanks for the info let me persue it from here...
[04:44] <dholbach> errr made changes to it
[04:44] <kjcole> (Also The Orchard)
[04:45] <dholbach> i think we as a team need a bit more organisation
[04:45] <hno73> wooo
[04:45] <dholbach> i don't want to be off-putting (as i said), but i think we need to focus more, on what we can actually do or change
[04:45] <TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah indeed.
[04:45] <jsgotangco> start cracking a whip to have focus?
[04:46] <dholbach> that's why i added some pages below "Organisation", where i'd like you to add everything you can think of, to make the situation better
[04:46] <hno73> Agreed
[04:46] <TheMuso> We have done so much talking, and haven't really resolved anything conclusively yet.
[04:46] <kjcole> dholbach: Organization? We don' need no steeeenking organization!
[04:46] <dholbach> jsgotangco: not at all
[04:46] <dholbach> kjcole: we need some rebels too, of course ;)
[04:46] <jsgotangco> dholbach: a big stick sometimes helps
[04:46] <jsgotangco> :D
[04:46] <zakame> oooh
[04:46] <dholbach> but i'm happy with our results so far
[04:46] <dholbach> this is our 2nd meeting
[04:46] <hno73> So, the wiki pages are a bit of a mess
[04:47] <dholbach> and we were able to cover a lot of ground (in discussions) already
[04:47] <jsgotangco> there is very big interest
[04:47] <TheMuso> Yeah, but we need to get some plans in stone by the next 1 or 2 meetings at the latest.
[04:47] <dholbach> absolutely
[04:47] <hno73> shall we agree to move them all into that new structure?
[04:47] <dholbach> so writing specs, breaking them up into small todo items would be great
[04:47] <kjcole> dholbach: Having the sub-pages makes things easier to find.  I like it.
[04:47] <hno73> we should be quite harsh on old material
[04:47] <dholbach> and if we run into trouble, we should start writing upstream bug reports and monitor them
[04:47] <dholbach> kjcole: thank you
[04:48] <dholbach> hno73: you did an awesome job... we shouldn't purge them
[04:48] <TheMuso> me and hno73 were playing with the idea of an a11y team about 6-12 months ago, but never really got it going till now.
[04:49] <jsgotangco> nice
[04:49] <kjcole> TheMuso: Critical mass.
[04:49] <hno73> dholbach is the super team-building guy :)
[04:49] <asw> Are you guys into touch with Massachusetts?  
[04:49] <asw> (state government?) 
[04:49] <TheMuso> asw: We do know about it yes.
[04:49] <asw> yes - but are you talking to them directly?  
[04:49] <TheMuso> The problem is, there is nothing realy ready right now that can be presented as a perfectly usable option.
[04:50] <jgrieves> exactly
[04:50] <dholbach> i'm happy to serve as a proxy from the team to ubnutu and the packages; as you saw... i don't have as much time as i'd like to have (i.e. didnt write the meeting minutes yet), so i need advise on what to package, which fix to upload
[04:50] <asw> TheMuso - Mark (Shuttleworth) or Mako or somebody high level? 
[04:50] <linbetwin> I could help with the wiki. I've got a launchpad account and I can organize Jason's documentation in the wiki.
[04:50] <dholbach> but i think we can really get a11y into a good shape
[04:50] <TheMuso> dholbach: Happy to help.
[04:50] <dholbach> TheMuso: thanks for your efforts
[04:50] <TheMuso> asw: It is a matter of the tools not being usable for the masses yet.
[04:50] <jgrieves> linbetwin i beleive jsgotangco will be working on that?
[04:51] <asw> TheMuso - well, I might help get you guys some funding for bounties. 
[04:51] <asw> Would that help?
[04:51] <TheMuso> asw: Yes that would greatly help.
[04:51] <hno73> asw: yes!
[04:51] <dholbach> asw: we already agreed on writing detailed specs first :))
[04:51] <linbetwin> jgrieves: ok
[04:51] <dholbach> who didnt sign up for the mailing list yet? :)
[04:51] <TheMuso> dholbach: Feel free to contact me if you need help. I am always on IRC< and you have my email address.
[04:51] <asw> ok - just email me await @ genetics.med.harvard.edu when you have some spec ready.  I'll try and make it happen.  I'm almost always on IRC. 
[04:51] <dholbach> TheMuso: thanks
[04:52] <jsgotangco> great
[04:52] <dholbach> i will write a quick summary of the meeting (i made notes of our decisions) this time :)))
[04:52] <hno73> dholbach: so, in your oppinion is there anything in our wiki pages that qualifies as a decent spec yet? 
[04:52] <TheMuso> dholbach: If I am idoling/sleeping, I should get it when I next check my IRC logs.
[04:52] <hno73> Or is it still to vague?
[04:52] <dholbach> hno73: we should make a list of our Specs and discuss them on the mailing list (review them as a team again, before proposing them)
[04:53] <dholbach> AccessibilityTeam/Specs?
[04:53] <hno73> right
[04:53] <TheMuso> damn you are quick.
[04:53] <jsgotangco> what do you we do with the other specs that were not touched during ubz?
[04:53] <hno73> asw: cool. I'll email you.
[04:53] <jbailey> jsgotangco: They can still be worked on, they just aren't likely to be high enough priority for Dapper.
[04:53] <TheMuso> Examine them, and see if they can be reworked or included elsewhere I guess.
[04:55] <hno73> I suspect they need to be focused further
[04:55] <dholbach> ok add all specs to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/Specs - i linked it from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam
[04:55] <hno73> made more realistic in terms of time and effort needed
[04:55] <dholbach> i feel we get better and better, as a team
[04:56] <dholbach> you guys rock!
[04:56] <hno73> dholbach: cool. We'll scrape the existing pages
[04:56] <dholbach> i'm very happy
[04:56] <jbailey> dholbach: Should they also maybe get linked through launchpad for tracking?
[04:56] <dholbach> jbailey: can we tag them somehow?
[04:56] <jbailey> I think teams can have specs.
[04:57] <dholbach> jbailey: that sounds great
[04:57] <dholbach> i will investigate in that
[04:57] <dholbach> they should turn up here, i guess: https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility/+specs
[04:58] <kjcole> Well, looks like things are wrapping up, and once again, I've missed two hours of paid work to do Ubuntu stuff.  So, time to run. ;-)
[04:58] <dholbach> :)
[04:58] <TheMuso> hahaha
[04:58] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:58] <dholbach> ok, we will track the specs in launchpad instead
[04:58] <jsgotangco> i need not sleep
[04:58] <dholbach> we can use AccessibilityTeam/Specs to add random chat on those specs
[04:58] <TheMuso> Good idea.
[04:59] <dholbach> i updated the wiki page
[04:59] <TheMuso> Shall we defer the decision of next meeting time and day to the list, or shall we take care of that now?
[04:59] <kjcole> Will move the SpecialNeeds page under the new tree... (and wrap it like a christmas present).
[04:59] <dholbach> next year?
[04:59] <hno73> Thanks everyone for being enthusiastic and constructive :)
[04:59] <dholbach> kjcole: thanks for that
[04:59] <hno73> now comes productive ...
[04:59] <jgrieves> jsgotangco: email about documentation?
[04:59] <dholbach> yeah :)
[04:59] <jsgotangco> hno73: a minute after this is done?
[05:00] <jsgotangco> jgrieves: yeah...
[05:00] <dholbach> yeah, thank you, everybody
[05:00] <jsgotangco> jgrieves: jgotangco@ubuntu.com if you need to correspond
[05:00] <hno73> jsgotangco: yep
[05:00] <jgrieves> jsgotangco thanks, looking forward to working with you
[05:00] <TheMuso> I am free in two weeks at the same time, but I guess tohers won't be.
[05:00] <jgrieves> works for me
[05:00] <jsgotangco> same here
[05:00] <dholbach> we can discuss next meeting's time on the mailing list, ok?
[05:00] <hno73> works for me too
[05:00] <hno73> k
[05:01] <TheMuso> dholbach: Thats fine, on the list.
[05:01] <dholbach> cool
[05:01] <jsgotangco> our LP team needs a cool logo!
[05:01] <kjcole> 2005.12.21? Same time? Works for me.
[05:01] <dholbach> !
[05:01] <TheMuso> Some of us can't see it. Don't bother. :)
[05:01] <jsgotangco> muhahaha
[05:01] <jbailey> jsgotangco: A big sad face.  It can slowly turn into a happy face as the situation gets better. =)
[05:01] <jgrieves> TheMuso: lol
[05:02] <dholbach> we have 18 members on the mailing list already!
[05:02] <jgrieves> it better be huge whatever itis
[05:02] <kjcole> The Scream (and we can add audio for those who cannot see it)
[05:02] <hno73> a cool logo and a signature tune
[05:02] <TheMuso> hahahahaha
[05:02] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[05:02] <hno73> ok, I think we're done :)
[05:02] <jbailey> First spec: "Making the Launchpad accessibility team pages accessible." =)
[05:03] <TheMuso> hahaha.
[05:03] <jgrieves> jbailey pffft who needs accessibility, come on
[05:03] <hno73> yeah, we need a cool bug #1
[05:03] <dholbach> i have another idea: how about everybody adds an idea to the test plan on every day until christmas? :)
[05:03] <TheMuso> I might approach BenC about speakup soonish. Depends on whether he is busy with other kernel stuff. :)
[05:03] <dholbach> we'd be done with the test plan until christmas
[05:03] <jsgotangco> bug #1 stop massachusettes?
[05:03] <TheMuso> lol
[05:04] <jsgotangco> the 12 days of a11y before christmas?
[05:04] <hno73> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/TestPlans
[05:04] <hno73> cool
[05:04] <jgrieves> on the first day of Christmmas, TheMuso prepared for me, a gnome-mag package...
[05:05] <hno73> Let's be specific
[05:05] <dholbach> haha :)
[05:05] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Good one.
[05:05] <jsgotangco> 5 braile keyboards....
[05:05] <TheMuso> 4 speech synths
[05:05] <jgrieves> 4 speech synthesizers
[05:05] <jsgotangco> haha
[05:05] <hno73> stealing ideas from other projects, ,like gnome, is alowed
[05:05] <jgrieves> TheMuso ROFL
[05:05] <dholbach> you guys are great!
[05:05] <dholbach> thanks everybody... time to go back home again
[05:06] <jsgotangco> ok before we actually create a song...
[05:06] <jgrieves> lol at Test Plans
[05:06] <jgrieves> i'm digging it
[05:06] <jgrieves> thanks everyone
[05:06] <dholbach> *wave*
[05:06] <jsgotangco> TheMusoare you somewhere in au?
[05:06] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: Yes.
[05:07] <TheMuso> Sydney.,
[05:07] <jsgotangco> TheMuso: ahhh i'm going to brisbane this weekend, maybe i can drop by to sydney before i head back home
[05:07] <sivang> dholbach: this was a test plan meeting or a11y ? :)
[05:07] <TheMuso> It is quite hot here atm.
[05:07] <dholbach> sivang: an a11y meeting
[05:07] <jsgotangco> 30C up?
[05:07] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[05:08] <jsgotangco> ok
[05:08] <dholbach> its 2C here :)
[05:08] <dholbach> see you later
[05:08] <TheMuso> dholbach: See you later.
[05:09] <jsgotangco> hno73: ping?
[05:09] <hno73> jsgotangco: hi
[05:09] <jsgotangco> hno73: regarding orchard, do we have a timetable for the next opencd release? 3.x?
[05:09] <asw> hno73 - I plan to update http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:OpenDocument  and have added some links at http://www.freebiology.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Implications_for_people_with_disabilities
[05:10] <jsgotangco> hno73: a todo list would also be helpful i don't know where to start except edit up orchard atm
[05:11] <hno73> asw: Cool, thanks. I'll read.
[05:11] <hno73> jsgotangco: Have you tried running it with the new skin?
[05:11] <hno73> it's now live on orchard
[05:11] <jsgotangco> hno73: yeah, its pretty good
[05:12] <hno73> Unfortunately much of it is still in my head
[05:12] <hno73> but it does work up there
[05:12] <jsgotangco> well yeah, because i'm like "ok what's next" state at the moment
[05:13] <hno73> If we go with a moin powered version (which it looks like) it will be 4.0, not 3.x
[05:13] <jsgotangco> should i join the ml (is there one?)
[05:13] <hno73> no, there isn't an ml, just the wiki
[05:13] <flint> thanks being online.  Let me get a little up to speed.  I will be back next week at 14:30 UCT...  Regards,
[05:13] <hno73> what do you want to get on with? ph translations?
[05:14] <jsgotangco> no actual development ph translation is quite easy
[05:14] <hno73> do you have a windows box?
[05:14] <jsgotangco> i do
[05:14] <hno73> perhaps you can try getting moin to run from the CD?
[05:15] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[05:15] <jsgotangco> with k-meleon?
[05:15] <hno73> I haven't actually done that yet. I suspect it might try to write cache files and complain
[05:15] <jsgotangco> i can try tommorow...
[05:15] <jsgotangco> i see what you envision on the wiki...
[05:16] <hno73> yeah, make a hybrid of tocd with kmelon and a moin desktop install on a CD
[05:16] <hno73> It works for me in K-melon on the HD
[05:16] <hno73> just need to deal with read-only issues I suspect
[05:17] <hno73> we might need the moin people to disablecache writing and recompile the desktop edition
[05:17] <jsgotangco> well the moin team is very approchable on stuff like this
[05:18] <hno73> yep.
[05:18] <jsgotangco> i'll experiment tommorow and see
[05:21] <jsgotangco> hno73: how much space is left at the moment to possibly add more apps or nominate for inclusion?
[05:28] <jsgotangco> hno73: i'll just email you tommorow morning, good night
[05:29] <hno73> jsgotangco: thanks. I got distracted ...
[05:29] <hno73> but, yes please suggest new apps. 
[05:29] <jsgotangco> alright
[05:29] <hno73> It looks like we'll need to squeeze out Ubuntu Live *cough*
[05:30] <hno73> so there will be lots of room again
[05:30] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[05:30] <hno73> for docs, videos, etc.
[05:30] <jsgotangco> ohhh
[05:30] <jsgotangco> but we'll have to remove a lot of other apps like what happened in 3.1
[05:32] <hno73> huh? No I mean If we go back to a pure Win-FOSS disc, we'll have like 400mb extra room
[05:32] <jsgotangco> ahhhh
[05:32] <hno73> people have actually been complaining about the linux part, asking for versions without it
[05:32] <jsgotangco> can we make 2 versions?
[05:33] <hno73> and people are often distributing it together with ubuntu anyway
[05:33] <jsgotangco> true
[05:33] <Kamion> jsgotangco: remember that the Ubuntu live CD already has a bit of WinFOSS on it
[05:33] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[05:33] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:33] <jsgotangco> maybe we can promote the opencd in the live cd?
[05:33] <hno73> it would also mean less hassling of Kamion ;)
[05:34] <hno73> I was hoping to have some video demos of Ubuntu made to put on the open cd
[05:34] <hno73> as replacements
[05:34] <hno73> less scaery and possibly more informative for real newbies
[05:35] <jsgotangco> hmm we have the space :)
[05:35] <hno73> just need to figure out how to record high quality video of the desktop
[05:36] <hno73> I'd rathernot use flash
[05:36] <jsgotangco> hmm vmware can do that
[05:36] <hno73> and I'd like to be able to add voice to it afterwards
[05:36] <jsgotangco> it does it in avi then we can convert to mpeg or mp4
[05:36] <hno73> right, that's an option
[05:36] <hno73> cool
[05:37] <hno73> Do you want to have a go?
[05:37] <jsgotangco> i can look into it, i downloaded a demo of vmware
[05:37] <hno73> Do we need a script ? :)
[05:37] <jsgotangco> maybe we can plot what we want to show first
[05:37] <jsgotangco> :D
[05:38] <jsgotangco> well if we're going to drop the livecd..then we'll have room for sure
[05:39] <hno73> The ideal thing would be a 5 minute each into to Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Edubunt
[05:39] <hno73> into to, yeah
[05:40] <hno73> Running in a vlc gecko plugin directly in the CD browser
[05:40] <hno73> We've run blender demos before with VLC on the CD, works fine
[05:40] <jsgotangco> wow but that'll mean we'll have a pretty low resolution for it
[05:41] <hno73> hm, true. could launch a separate window
[05:41] <hno73> the vmware demo could run at a low display size though
[05:42] <hno73> 800x600 at the most
[05:42] <jsgotangco> hmm ok i'll check it out then, i gotta sleep
[05:43] <jsgotangco> i'll email you or create a wiki page later
[05:43] <hno73> night
[05:43] <hno73> cool
[09:52] <keyes> hello
[09:52] <keyes> i'm just reading the logs from the CC
[09:53] <Fujitsu> CC?
[09:53] <keyes> (15h french time I must work :P)
[09:53] <keyes> "CoummunityCouncil" ?
[09:53] <Fujitsu> Oh.
[09:53] <keyes> with the "automatix" problem
 kassetra:  I don't speak a very good english but I know read a source code
 and you don't
 ^^
 (or you'r blind)
[10:00] <Kamion> I realise it's hard when tempers are high
[10:30] <keyes> Kamion:  automatix is a fork of "my" script
[10:30] <keyes> and it was violating the GPL