[12:22] <LaserJock> what does the 3 years support for dapper mean for the doc team?
[12:23] <mdke> not a lot, except that we should try and get really good docs
[12:23] <mdke> it is really most relevant to security.u.c
[12:23] <LaserJock> what happens if the content of the docs change in 3 years. Is there a mechanism for updating them?
[12:24] <mdke> what do you mean by the content changing?
[12:24] <mdke> string freeze applies to docs as well as to packages
[12:25] <LaserJock> well, in particular I am thinking things will change of the course of 3 years so I wonder if the docs will become incorrect with time
[12:25] <mdke> but the distro won't change
[12:25] <mdke> it will be frozen too
[12:26] <LaserJock> but what if link URLs change?
[12:26] <LaserJock> are all of the docs internal?
[12:26] <mdke> LaserJock, ah, then that is a good case for updates
[12:30] <LaserJock> k
[12:30] <LaserJock> I am trying to gauge what kind of info I can put in the Packaging Guide
[12:31] <mdke> LaserJock, we have an entitites file with urls
[12:31] <mdke> you can use them and add to them
[12:37] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah I have seen those. thanks
[03:44] <LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
[03:45] <jsgotangco> hey
[04:16] <Madpilot> hi all
[04:17] <LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
[04:20] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[04:22] <theCore> LaserJock, hello
[04:25] <LaserJock> theCore: just got your email
[04:26] <theCore> LaserJock, did you render the guide ?
[04:27] <LaserJock> theCore: not yet
[04:33] <theCore> LaserJock, did you work on the guide ?
[04:35] <LaserJock> theCore: no, I did work on a merging guide a bit. It's at wiki.ubuntu.com/Merging
[04:37] <LaserJock> theCore: I think that it will be good for our project
[04:39] <theCore> LaserJock, i think that, too
[04:41] <LaserJock> theCore: what language is the Introduction in?
[04:41] <theCore> LaserJock, latin
[04:42] <theCore> LaserJock, it's the famous "lorem ipsum" placeholder
[04:44] <LaserJock> theCore: I don't think I have ever heard of that
[04:45] <Madpilot> http://www.lipsum.com/
[04:46] <Madpilot> ^^ complete with automated lipsum generator
[04:46] <theCore> Madpilot, i used it to make the intro text
[04:46] <theCore> it's quite cool
[04:47] <Madpilot> it's great - there's even an Opera sidebar that uses that site to generate lipsum :)
[04:47] <theCore> nice
[04:48] <LaserJock> that's quite interesting
[04:49] <theCore> LaserJock, I looked at the Ubuntu CC log of your nomination, it's pretty cool how they nominate members
[04:50] <LaserJock> yeah, I was kinda nervous but it was fine. I think the big thing they look for is time and that other people will speak for you
[04:52] <theCore> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2005-12-06.html <<<< you may to want to keep that in your personal file
[04:52] <LaserJock> theCore: good idea
[04:55] <theCore> LaserJock, for the guide, i think we should split it in many small wiki, then glue them together
[04:57] <theCore> LaserJock, with this way, the developping will be easier
[05:01] <LaserJock> theCore: I don't know. Once we get it into the svn repo it will be easier. Maybe we should have a scratch wiki page at least.
[05:02] <theCore> LaserJock, okay, good idea
[07:49] <LaserJock> theCore: you awake?
[07:49] <theCore> LaserJock, yes
[07:49] <theCore> LaserJock, why ?
[07:50] <LaserJock> you did a lot of work on "where can I find packages"
[07:51] <LaserJock> put do you think we really need that much?
[07:51] <LaserJock> s/put/but/
[07:52] <theCore> LaserJock, lol, not that much, i just formated this page http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/components/view
[07:53] <theCore> no
[07:53] <theCore> it really need some stripping
[07:53] <LaserJock> ok, that's fine
[07:55] <theCore> i would, however, to add links to place to where actually find orphaned or to be done packages
[07:55] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta get to bed. tomorrow I will work on what you gave me and hopefully get it in the repo
[07:56] <theCore> nice, cya
[07:56] <LaserJock> theCore: sure
[08:41] <bshumate> bhuvan : ping?
[04:21] <jjesse> morning :)
[04:28] <jsgotangco> hello
[04:29] <jjesse> how are you jsgotangco 
[04:30] <jsgotangco> pretty good i've started reviewing docs again in svn
[04:31] <jsgotangco> i'm prepping up myself for some good work in a few days
[04:33] <jjesse> cool, i need to get back into it
[04:33] <jjesse> been really busy
[04:35] <jsgotangco> same here travelling was good and bad
[04:37] <mdke> hello
[04:37] <jjesse> hello mdke 
[04:38] <mdke> who knows a good guide for setting up an smtp auth server?
[04:38] <mdke> hi jjesse 
[04:42] <jjesse> ummm not me
[04:59] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:50] <Burgwork> mdke, we are likely going to take the lead for start.ubuntu.com if it is going to happen
[06:50] <Burgwork> mdke, it is a fairly simple website
[06:52] <jjesse> start.ubuntu.com is the new default webpage right?
[06:55] <Burgwork> jjesse, it doesn't exist yet
[06:55] <Burgwork> jjesse, that is the plan
[06:56] <jjesse> Burgwork: i didn't realize they were still going to do it
[06:56] <Burgwork> jjesse, s/they/us - if it is realistically going to happen
[06:58] <theCore> what is start.ubuntu.com ?
[06:58] <jjesse> Burgwork: i thought there was a group of people in this team that was against it
[07:00] <jjesse> theCore: wiki.ubuntu.com/BrowserDefaults
[07:01] <theCore> jjesse, thanks
[07:02] <jjesse> Burgwork: i guess i still don't see the benifit behind it... i love how konq's default start page is
[07:02] <jjesse> gives lots of help
[07:03] <Burgwork> jjesse, the plan was never to change the kubuntu default start page
[07:03] <Burgwork> jjesse, on FF on Ubuntu
[07:04] <jjesse> Burgwork: i realize that it is just a ubuntu thing
[07:05] <jjesse> Burgwork: on any of the windows boxes that i have i changed the default page to blank in IE or about in FF
[07:08] <jjesse> i hate msn.com as the start page for ie
[07:09] <jjesse> and besides not everyone has a broadband connection so they can't always get to start.ubuntu.com
[07:12] <theCore> LaserJock, ping
[07:18] <Burgwork> jjesse, but the reality is that by the time the people open the webbrowser, they are likely already online
[07:18] <Burgwork> jjesse, and if they open a local file, they are more likely to simply have it opened through nautlius
[07:19] <jjesse> Burgwork: i disagree, i open my browser all the time, i use dial up and connect to a local webpage 9 times out 10 when i'm at home
[07:19] <Burgwork> jjesse, after you open your webbrowser, are you already online?
[07:19] <jjesse> Burgwork: nope
[07:20] <jjesse> Burgwork: i run two or three different web based programs on different boxes on my local lan, but still use dial up for internet access
[07:21] <Burgwork> then why do you open your webbrowser?
[07:21] <Burgwork> what are you planning to do with it while not being online?
[07:21] <jjesse> Burgwork: access programs (cookbook, wine list, phpmyadmin) all on local machines
[07:22] <Burgwork> that is not a common usecase
[07:25] <jjesse> mdke: are you around for the discussion?
[07:27] <jjesse> Burgwork: if i recall correctly he felt the same way about it
[07:32] <mdke> hello
[07:32] <mdke> let me read scrollback
[07:32] <jjesse> its about start.ubuntu.com
[07:33] <mdke> yes
[07:33] <mdke> Burgwork, "we are likely going to take the lead"
[07:33] <mdke> how do you know?
[07:33] <mdke> i haven't seen it discussed
[07:33] <mdke> since I started using epiphany, I'm really against an online browser default, because every new tab opens the homepage, it would be so slow to work with
[07:34] <mpt> jjesse, why don't you have Web links to those local Web-based programs in your Places menu or wherever?
[07:34] <mpt> instead of launching a browser and then clicking a bookmark?
[07:34] <jjesse> mpt: don't know, i just launch the browser and type the address, never really thought about it
[07:34] <jjesse> to be perfectly honest
[07:35] <mpt> it would (a) be faster, and (b) avoid it trying to go online
[07:35] <mpt> or enter the URLs into deskbar
[07:38] <mdke> mpt, you use epiphany right?
[07:39] <mdke> don't you think it would slow the browsing experience right down to have an online homepage with a 56k or even 128k connection?
[07:40] <jjesse> mdke: thats what i hate about IE trying to open up msn.com or whatever each time you go to a new page
[07:40] <jjesse> i use windows still at home
[07:40] <jjesse> or the wife does :)
[07:41] <mdke> yeah well msn.com is an extreme example because it's hideously slow :)
[07:41] <LaserJock> theCore: pong
[07:41] <theCore> LaserJock, hi
[07:41] <mdke> i think we should implement an offline frontpage for the start.ubuntu.com idea and fill it with links to the website
[07:41] <theCore> LaserJock, i'm having some great conversation with the motu, now
[07:45] <theCore> LaserJock, i'm curently overflow with links to good info for the PackagingGuide
[07:46] <LaserJock> theCore: I'm trying to read the log in -motu, just a sec
[07:47] <jjesse> mdke: i would prefer something like that
[07:47] <jjesse> mdke: once again i point to how konqi works and wonder if the same setup could be done?
[07:48] <mdke> jjesse, screenshot pls
[07:49] <mdke> if you can
[07:50] <Burgwork> mdke, because nobody else is going to
[07:53] <mpt> mdke, yes, I don't think it would slow the browsing experience right down
[07:53] <jjesse> mdke: argh having issues w/ screen print :(
[07:53] <mpt> mainly because I could launch the browser and connect in 1 click instead of 2
[07:53] <mdke> mpt, connect to what?
[07:54] <mpt> the Internet
[07:54] <mdke> mpt, talk me through 1 click instead of 2
[07:54] <mpt> You launch the browser, which tries to access start.ubuntu.com, which is online, which makes Ubuntu dial up
[07:54] <mdke> ah i see
[07:54] <jjesse> mdke: where can i place the screenshots?
[07:55] <mpt> is that true, or does Ubuntu still not dial up automatically?
[07:55] <mdke> mpt, tbh I have never seen ubuntu with a working modem connection :)
[07:55] <jjesse> mdke: its a pain in the ass
[07:55] <mpt> mdke, touch
[07:56] <mpt> jjesse, the main objection I'd have to the Konqueror approach is that Firefox and Epiphany are Web browsers.
[07:56] <mdke> mpt, anyhow. The slowing down of the browsing experience in my mind would come when the user opens new tabs, not when they first start the browser
[07:56] <mdke> i don't see a problem with "start the browser, get the nice page with lots of links, click, dial up
[07:56] <mdke> if dial up worked
[07:57] <mpt> If that's a problem for you, it's a problem for everyone who uses Firefox on Windows, mdke, and the solution is the same as there: use a blank page as your home page
[07:57] <mdke> mpt, well, firefox can be configured on windows i believe. And, I want a homepage
[07:57] <mdke> if start.ubuntu.com can be identical to what you planned, but stored locally, I would be able to have one
[07:58] <Burgwork> mdke, the problem with storing it locally is content
[07:58] <jjesse> who asked for screenshots of konq?
[07:58] <mdke> me
[07:58] <jjesse> Burgwork: isn't the fridge supposed to be that?
[07:58] <mdke> Burgwork, in what way?
[07:58] <jjesse> mdke: where can i put them
[07:58] <mdke> changing the content?
[07:58] <mdke> jjesse, mail me them?
[07:58] <jjesse> address
[07:58] <mdke> mdke@ubuntu.com
[07:59] <Burgwork> mdke, any changes to content must be done via updates to the distro, rather than out of band, which a webpage would allow
[07:59] <mdke> Burgwork, true. It depends on how change resistent the content would be
[07:59] <mdke> i would have it pretty change resistent
[07:59] <mdke> and have the changeable stuff spread on the website
[07:59] <mdke> as I understood it, a relatively short page was the idea of the spec
[08:00] <mpt> mdke, a big benefit of start.ubuntu.com is that if (for example) we sell the home page to Google in the 7.10 timeframe, it will magically work for everyone running 6.04 and 6.10 and 7.04 who hasn't changed their home page yet, not just for those using 7.10
[08:00] <mdke> wha?
[08:00] <mdke> lemme read that slowly
[08:00] <mdke> sell the home page?
[08:00] <jjesse> mdke: on the way
[08:01] <Burgwork> mdke, sell the right to have google search bar, ala FF does right now
[08:01] <mpt> In other words, we can redirect start.ubuntu.com to wherever we want after it's installed, which we couldn't do with a local home page.
[08:01] <mdke> i see
[08:02] <mdke> you have to pay for a google search bar?
[08:02] <Burgwork> mdke, no, google pays you
[08:03] <mpt> Burgwork, we were talking about the home page, not about the search bar
[08:03] <mdke> he means a bar in the page i guess
[08:03] <Burgwork> yes, I do
[08:03] <mpt> No, I mean the home page itself
[08:03] <mpt> just like in vanilla Firefox
[08:03] <mpt> ok
[08:04] <Burgwork> we can include the google search bar in our page and still get paid from google I would imagine
[08:04] <mdke> how important is this?
[08:04] <mdke> why don't we just include it, and not get paid
[08:04] <mdke> then if canonical negotiates a payment, we leave it there
[08:04] <Burgwork> mdke, because then if we ask for money later, we are screwed
[08:04] <mdke> not like anything needs to be added or taken away
[08:04] <Burgwork> we talked about this at UBZ
[08:05] <mdke> ok
[08:05] <mdke> well if it was me (it's not), I really wouldn't consider that a big issue
[08:05] <mpt> Canonical needs revenue sources eventually :-)
[08:06] <mdke> mpt, sure, but selling bits of the distro seems a bit weird. Anyhow, surely that wouldn't be major bucks
[08:06] <mpt> mdke, Microsoft, Apple, and I'm sure other Linux distributors do it too
[08:06] <mdke> sure
[08:06] <mdke> when can I expect adverts in my gnome panel?
[08:06] <mdke> ;)
[08:07] <mdke> at any rate, the powers that be will decide how important the google search bar thing is
[08:07] <mdke> if it's important, you're right, it has to be online
[08:07] <mpt> nah, we'll sell ads in Gaim so that AIM emigrants feel more at home ;-)
[08:07] <mdke> mpt, btw did you ever reply to that mail from sabdfl about AboutUbuntu? the thread was "Gnubuntu"
[08:08] <Burgwork> mdke, they are already coming in evince
[08:08] <mdke> ouch
[08:08] <mdke> i would check that out
[08:08] <Burgwork> mdke, I even have a blog post and would you like to buy some land in Florida?
[08:08] <mdke> but EVINCE IS NOT IN MY MENUS!
[08:09] <Burgwork> nope
[08:09] <mdke> bloody crazy menu fascists
[08:09] <mdke> i can't believe so much stuff is not in the menus and yet Run Application has not been put back
[08:09] <mdke> anyway, where are these ads?
[08:10] <Burgwork> there is no use case for opening a viewer without the associated doc
[08:10] <Burgwork> mdke, it was a joke by the evince dev
[08:10] <mdke> sure there is
[08:10] <mdke> i want to see evince to check if it has adverts
[08:10] <mdke> case ^^
[08:10] <Burgwork> right
[08:10] <Burgwork> 0.00015
[08:10] <Burgwork> %
[08:10] <mdke> also, i like opening the program first, then the document
[08:10] <Burgwork> your wierd
[08:10] <mpt> mdke, no, I'd rather get AboutUbuntu implemented first to demonstrate why filling it with text wouldn't be a nice idea
[08:11] <Burgwork> but seriously, that is a refugee habir from windows
[08:11] <Burgwork> I used to do it too
[08:11] <mdke> mpt, i don't think that was the question, although I don't remember it clearly ;)
[08:11] <mdke> Burgwork, well lots of users will then
[08:11] <mpt> mdke, I think tabs were mentioned...
[08:12] <mdke> Burgwork, my parents will be totally incapable of using Ubuntu without being able to open the program first, then the file
[08:12] <theCore> LaserJock, what the plans, now ?
[08:12] <jjesse> mdke: did you get the email?
[08:12] <mdke> jjesse, looking
[08:12] <mpt> mdke, but that's so slow!
[08:12] <Burgwork> mdke, why?
[08:12] <mdke> jjesse, no
[08:13] <jjesse> mdke: checking on my end
[08:13] <LaserJock> theCore: well we just need to keep to the tutorial focus and less reference
[08:13] <mdke> Burgwork, because they are used to it, and they can't use a file manager
[08:13] <Burgwork> mdke, why can'
[08:13] <Burgwork> they use a file manager?
[08:13] <mdke> because they are not used to it
[08:14] <theCore> LaserJock, that guide is getting quite complicated 
[08:15] <LaserJock> theCore: which one?
[08:15] <theCore> LaserJock, the Packaging one
[08:16] <LaserJock> theCore: well, if we don't have to worry about reference material then it becomes simpler ;-)
[08:16] <theCore> LaserJock, :)
[08:17] <theCore> LaserJock, however, we getting more and more rules to follow everyday
[08:18] <LaserJock> theCore: well, I guess that's just the way it goes. It really isn't a problem. In the end we can move material from the Packaging Guide to the Developer Reference if we need to.
[08:18] <LaserJock> theCore: That is, if the licensing isn't a problem :(
[08:19] <theCore> LaserJock, i hope so
[08:20] <mdke> lol
[08:22] <LaserJock> mdke: how would that work. The Packaing Guide would be the doc-team dual licence but the Developer Reference would probably be GPL
[08:22] <mdke> another good reason to release the packaging guide as gpl
[08:23] <LaserJock> mdke: your right
[08:34] <mdke> jjesse, got it now
[08:34] <mdke> nice
[08:37] <jjesse> yeah i like :)
[08:37] <jjesse> afk meeting :)
[08:39] <mdke> afk meeting with food
[09:17] <jjesse> lucky you got food w your meeting i just got coffee :(
[09:19] <mdke> i just had a meeting with me and food, no one else present :)
[09:19] <jjesse> ah i had an actual meeting
[09:24] <jjesse> so you like how konqi looks ?
[09:27] <mdke> looks good
[09:27] <mdke> i don't like the file manager thing
[09:28] <mdke> but a nice colourful simple front page is a good idea
[09:38] <Burgwork> ironically,  the kde devs are  thinking of spliting konq for kde4
[10:00] <jjesse> grin
[10:10] <jjesse> so did we decide anything on start.ubuntu.com or just lots of discussion?
[10:15] <LaserJock> theCore: hi
[10:17] <teroedni> hello
[10:20] <theCore> LaserJock, hi
[10:20] <LaserJock> theCore: I just had a good session in #ubuntu-motu-school showing somebody how to package using hello as an example
[10:20] <teroedni> so i think i will hang out more here
[10:21] <teroedni> is this the official doc site
[10:21] <theCore> LaserJock, sorry, if i quit often without notice, i have some problem with my internet connection
[10:21] <teroedni> anyway jsut so you know
[10:22] <theCore> LaserJock, the hello package is really a good example package
[10:22] <teroedni> i am a part of the gwos, but i also plan to be a part of moin wiki(i have contributed):)
[10:22] <teroedni> hope that is okay
[10:23] <teroedni> so are you guys discussing changeds in the wiki here or?
[10:30] <theCore> LaserJock, your hello walkthrough is interesting
[10:31] <theCore> LaserJock, i think i will get it a try 
[10:31] <theCore> s/get/give/
[10:32] <LaserJock> teroedni: right now we are talking about a Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[10:33] <teroedni> Laserjock:Thats osunds okey
[10:33] <teroedni> yust wanna introduce me
[10:33] <teroedni> since i perhaps plan to stay here
[10:33] <teroedni> :)
[10:35] <theCore> teroedni, you have a wierd english, you know ? ;)
[10:35] <teroedni> Well thats because i come from Norway
[10:35] <teroedni> im not the best
[10:35] <teroedni> in English
[10:36] <theCore> teroedni, me too (i'm a french-canadian) 
[10:36] <teroedni> :)
[10:36] <teroedni> good im not alone :)
[10:36] <theCore> teroedni, we currently building a guide for the new package maintainers
[10:37] <teroedni> sounds good:)
[10:37] <theCore> teroedni, it is
[10:38] <theCore> teroedni, right now, we are just plannig
[10:38] <theCore> s/plannig/planning/
[10:39] <theCore> teroedni, you can check our outline if you want: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
[10:42] <Burgwork> mdke, ping
[10:42] <teroedni> the core, thanks is look good:)
[10:52] <jjesse> theCore: was reviewing the packaging guide and is looks good so far
[10:52] <jjesse> outline wise
[10:54] <theCore> jjesse, thanks for the compliment, LaserJock has worked hard on this too
[10:54] <jjesse> LaserJock: good then as well, didn't mean to exclude you :P
[10:54] <LaserJock> jjesse: np
[10:54] <LaserJock> it is a team/community effort
[10:55] <jjesse> teroedni: are you interested in helping out with docs or just the wiki?
[10:56] <teroedni> docs
[10:56] <teroedni> if i can be of use:)
[10:56] <jjesse> you can be of use
[10:56] <theCore> teroedni, what would you like to do ?
[10:56] <jjesse> did you go to wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects  ?
[10:56] <jjesse> you can also see what docs we are currently working on at doc.ubuntu.com
[10:57] <teroedni> well for the moment i wait and see what cc says
[10:57] <jjesse> LaserJock or theCore is this (http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html) the correct pacage guide?
[10:58] <LaserJock> jjesse: that is a Packaging Guide that was done by somebody else
[10:58] <LaserJock> jjesse: theCore and I decided that we should rework it
[10:58] <jjesse> LaserJock: oh yeah iremember some discussion on the mailing list 
[11:00] <LaserJock> jjesse: basically that guide was parts of the Debian New Maintainers Guide + some wiki
[11:00] <LaserJock> jjesse: I think we can do better
[11:00] <LaserJock> not that those were bad. but sometimes starting from scratch is easier than revising an existing doc
[11:00] <theCore> LaserJock, did you knew this page existed ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
[11:01] <LaserJock> theCore: for sure
[11:01] <theCore> LaserJock, that a must for the new maintainer
[11:01] <LaserJock> theCore: I am also the MOTU wiki organizer guy ;-)
[11:01] <theCore> s/that/that's/
[11:01] <LaserJock> theCore: see MOTU/DocTodo
[11:02] <LaserJock> theCore: yes it is, but people need to know what to do with it
[11:02] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta go for a bit, will bbl
[11:03] <theCore> LaserJock, see ya later
[11:08] <theCore> teroedni, so are you still interested by building docs?
[11:09] <mdke> Burgwork, pong
[11:10] <teroedni> thecore
[11:10] <teroedni> yea i think so
[11:10] <teroedni> but i will wait a little
[11:10] <teroedni> i have bookmarked the site
[11:10] <mdke> kubuntu docs need some loving, if you are a kubuntu man teroedni 
[11:10] <teroedni> nope gnome
[11:10] <teroedni> im more of a hw man;)
[11:10] <mdke> ah
[11:10] <mdke> well, it all needs loving
[11:11] <teroedni> but for now i watch
[11:11] <teroedni> and observer
[11:11] <teroedni> after the community agenda meeting
[11:11] <teroedni> i be clearer on what i want to work on
[11:12] <mdke> cool
[11:12] <teroedni> :)
[11:12] <mdke> what meeting?
[11:12] <teroedni> well gotta go. I have the site bookmarked<---see ya :)
[11:14] <teroedni> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForumDiscussion<---this one mdke
[11:14] <mdke> teroedni, that has nothing to do with us :)
[11:15] <teroedni> ahh:)
[11:15] <mdke> teroedni, but it's an interesting one
[11:16] <teroedni> well i be back later thanks;) have a nice day:)
[11:16] <mdke> you too
[11:20] <theCore> mdke, why they banned robotgeek from the IRC channel ?
[11:20] <mdke> dunno
[11:20] <mdke> which channel?
[11:21] <theCore> dunno
[11:21] <theCore> #
[11:21] <theCore> IRC Channel:
[11:21] <theCore>     *
[11:21] <theCore>       Additionally members who side with Amaranth, robotgeek, and the GPL are now being banned (I've been banned [Seth] )
[11:21] <theCore>     *
[11:21] <theCore>       Kyral has been banned from #ubuntuforums for the same reason
[11:21] <theCore>     *
[11:21] <theCore>       Before banning Kyral, the forum staff member [WWW]  FLeiXiuS said: [17:45]  <FLeiXiuS> Were not under the CoC, nor do we give a shit about the CC in here..
[11:21] <theCore> it's a wierd entry
[11:21] <mdke> ah dude
[11:22] <mdke> that stuff is all about both sides going over the top
[11:22] <mdke> people who are arguing go over the top to make differences between each other
[11:22] <mdke> best thing is to ignore it
[11:22] <theCore> it what I though
[11:23] <mdke> some seriously good progress is being made on this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=100069&page=18
[11:23] <mdke> lots of constructive discussion, people listening to each other etc
[11:24] <LaserJock> yeah, the last CC meeting was interesting
[11:25] <theCore> mdke, is there really competition between the doc repo and the wiki?
[11:25] <mdke> i think competition would be a bad way to describe the relationship
[11:26] <mdke> some forum members want a place to store howtos
[11:26] <mdke> they decided not to use the ubuntu wiki, but another one, mainly because of software-based reasons
[11:26] <mdke> some social reasons
[11:26] <mdke> now those social reasons have been resolved
[11:27] <mdke> thank god
[11:27] <LaserJock> they have?
[11:27] <mdke> yeah it was mainly based on a misunderstanding
[11:27] <mdke> i have spent many hours on this :)
[11:29] <mdke> anyhow, that wiki is going to remain in place for the time being
[11:29] <LaserJock> I was just thinking of the last CC meeting
[11:29] <mdke> LaserJock, i wasn't there
[11:29] <LaserJock> yeah, it is too bad people just can't get along. I mean we all are here for Ubuntu
[11:29] <mdke> LaserJock, they will get along
[11:30] <mdke> FOSS is difficult, everyone has different ideas
[11:30] <mdke> it needs hard work, but people can get along
[11:30] <LaserJock> well, I would hate to see the forums gone
[11:30] <Kingbahamut> Most of us feel that way LJ/mdke
[11:31] <mdke> by the way theCore/ LaserJock, Kingbahamut is the admin of that wiki
[11:31] <mdke> he'll tell ya
[11:31] <Kingbahamut> tell em what?
[11:32] <mdke>  [22:26:37]  < mdke> now those social reasons have been resolved
[11:32] <LaserJock> seems silly to get so worked up over such things. But I guess I can understand. I so focused on what I am doing that I can't see other people's point of view
[11:32] <Kingbahamut> My communications with you guys have been if anything better 
[11:32] <Kingbahamut> however
[11:32] <Kingbahamut> the ongoing issues
[11:32] <Kingbahamut> outside of thta 
[11:32] <Kingbahamut> arent resolved 
[11:33] <mdke> sure, but those are different issues
[11:33] <Kingbahamut> theres alot of that going around Laserjock
[11:33] <Kingbahamut> no one is willing to see anyone else's point of view 
[11:33] <mdke> Kingbahamut, i disagree
[11:33] <mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=555933&postcount=176
[11:33] <Kingbahamut> my communications with Amaranth have been if anything
[11:33] <mdke> that shows that some people are
[11:33] <Kingbahamut> very unproductive 
[11:33] <mdke> in fact that whole thread demonstrates that some people are
[11:34] <Kingbahamut> I have no doubt some are 
[11:34] <Kingbahamut> I am certainly willing to listen
[11:34] <Kingbahamut> what becomes hard 
[11:34] <Kingbahamut> is that those who want me to listen to them, dont choose to listen to what I have to say or want to for that matter
[11:34] <Kingbahamut> it causes frustration on everyone's part 
[11:35] <theCore> with a community big as Ubuntu, it must be though to get everyone to the right place ...
[11:35] <mdke> yes
[11:35] <Kingbahamut> its possible to assume that yes, Core
[11:35] <LaserJock> Kingbahamut: that's what my wife tells me all the time ;-)
[11:35] <mdke> heh
[11:35] <Kingbahamut> lol
[11:35] <Kingbahamut> LaserJock, I wouldnt be stuck down here in my dungeon of Metal
[11:35] <Kingbahamut> if that statement were not true 
[11:36] <mdke> as I said, I think most sides go out of their way to make things difficult, I just block it all out and listen to the people who are making sense, as on that thread
[11:36] <Kingbahamut> I think the banning of Azz
[11:36] <Kingbahamut> more than likely did damage and healing at the same time
[11:36] <Kingbahamut> whether I aggree with it or not 
[11:37] <mdke> sure
[11:37] <mdke> there is too much personal stuff involved in these battles
[11:37] <Kingbahamut> and honestly the issue with respect to Arnieboy and Automatix itself
[11:37] <mdke> people build up mistrust as I said yesterday ;)
[11:37] <Kingbahamut> is just a sympton of the earlier problem 
[11:37] <Kingbahamut> between Azz and the rest of us 
[11:38] <Kingbahamut> sure they do
[11:38] <Kingbahamut> thats being human , matthew
[11:38] <mdke> well, I believe that that post by ubuntugeek will go a long way towards sorting things out
[11:38] <Kingbahamut> I tried to explain that to Amaranth 
[11:38] <Kingbahamut> and the reply I got was rather
[11:38] <Kingbahamut> well
[11:38] <mdke> and the thread it is on has been very productive for both sides
[11:38] <Kingbahamut> not happy 
[11:39] <theCore> why there isn't a unofficial forum ?
[11:39] <Kingbahamut> no
[11:39] <Kingbahamut> why Humanism and Community must be factored in 
[11:39] <mdke> theCore, there probably are, loads of them
[11:39] <Kingbahamut> to the equation 
[11:39] <Kingbahamut> the reply I recieved from Amaranth was 
[11:39] <Kingbahamut>  Dec 08 13:47:22 Amaranth        I don't think you should speak much at the CC meeting, we don't want to be there 4 hours listening about humanity.
[11:40] <mdke> please don't get into personal discussions
[11:40] <Kingbahamut> my apologies
[11:40] <Kingbahamut> still immensely frustrated, shall keep it out 
[11:40] <mdke> we like to try and retain our neutrality :)
[11:40] <Kingbahamut> as do i 
[11:40] <Kingbahamut> as do I 
[11:41] <Kingbahamut> regardless 
[11:41] <Kingbahamut> yes
[11:41] <LaserJock> well I was impressed with the way the CC handled the last meeting. I think they are trying to be objective about this
[11:41] <Kingbahamut> Objectivity is key 
[11:41] <mdke> theCore, behind any FOSS project
[11:41] <Kingbahamut> bias is always a problem 
[11:41] <mdke> LaserJock, yeah the CC members are all top
[11:42] <mdke> Kingbahamut, you shouldn't be frustrated, read the thread 100069: i'm totally convinced that progress is being made
[11:42] <mdke> leave individuals aside
[11:42] <LaserJock> mdke: it is indeed 
[11:42] <Kingbahamut> I have faith in progress matthew 
[11:42] <Kingbahamut> if I didnt I wouldnt be in here
[11:42] <Kingbahamut> or any other channel 
[11:42] <mdke> :)
[11:42] <Kingbahamut> nor would I still be fending off attackers 
[11:42] <mdke> Burgwork, pong TIMES TWO!
[11:42] <Kingbahamut> if I didnt believe in the concept of mutual progression 
[11:43] <mdke> ignoring attackers is also useful ;)
[11:43] <Kingbahamut> cant
[11:43] <mdke> sometimes...
[11:43] <Kingbahamut> did that for a day
[11:43] <Kingbahamut> took my webserver down
[11:43] <Kingbahamut> for 24 hours
[11:43] <theCore> ouch
[11:43] <mdke> oh, i didn't mean that sort of attackers
[11:43] <theCore> i remember that day
[11:44] <Kingbahamut> I recieve in excess
[11:44] <Kingbahamut> of 
[11:44] <Kingbahamut> 2000 emails
[11:44] <Kingbahamut> from people asking me what was going wrong with the Doc
[11:44] <Kingbahamut> users, mods, admins all alike
[11:44] <mdke> that's a lot of mail
[11:44] <Kingbahamut> yes
[11:45] <Kingbahamut> Each time I take her down for the q4 games
[11:45] <mdke> brb (washing up)
[11:45] <Kingbahamut> I usually get spamed with about a hundred emails 
[11:46] <theCore> Kingbahamut, what is the problems with the forum exactly ?
[11:46] <Kingbahamut> really
[11:46] <Kingbahamut> you want the real answer?
[11:46] <theCore> yes
[11:46] <Kingbahamut> Control 
[11:46] <Kingbahamut> who has it 
[11:46] <Kingbahamut> and who doesnt 
[11:46] <theCore> i see
[11:47] <LaserJock> hhmmm, I have never thought of there really being any control on forums
[11:47] <Kingbahamut> well ulitmately LJ
[11:47] <Kingbahamut> I think there should be
[11:47] <LaserJock> makes sense
[11:47] <Kingbahamut> I mean, illegal activity, nudity, vulgarity, personal attacks and defamation
[11:47] <LaserJock> right
[11:47] <Kingbahamut> those are the things im accused of moderating
[11:47] <Kingbahamut> by Azz's statements
[11:48] <Kingbahamut> all of those but Illegal activity
[11:48] <Kingbahamut> should never be moderated or deleted 
[11:48] <Kingbahamut> while I concede the point of Jailing such posts
[11:48] <theCore> Ubuntu should be free of this craps
[11:48] <Kingbahamut> in the issues of Nudity, Vulgarity and Illegal Activity 
[11:48] <Kingbahamut> I cannot abide them, and remove them without question 
[11:48] <LaserJock> theCore: it only would be if it was free of people ;-)
[11:48] <Kingbahamut> as a moderator
[11:49] <Kingbahamut> but
[11:49] <LaserJock> but the personal attacks and defamation
[11:49] <Kingbahamut> I have been reprimanded more times than I can count 
[11:49] <Kingbahamut> for those types of moderation 
[11:49] <Kingbahamut> and thats the root of the issue
[11:49] <Kingbahamut> what should be moderated
[11:49] <Kingbahamut> and what shouldnt
[11:50] <LaserJock> hmm, makes sense that that would be a problem
[11:50] <Kingbahamut> true
[11:50] <Kingbahamut> so 
[11:50] <Kingbahamut> someone must decided
[11:50] <Kingbahamut> er
[11:50] <Kingbahamut> decide
[11:50] <LaserJock> right, and who gets to decide?
[11:50] <Kingbahamut> true
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> should the community decide? the CC? Should the CC take the community into account? does it? 
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> those are the types of questions
[11:51] <LaserJock> can't there be moderated and unmoderated sections
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> that are asked by the admins and mods of the forum 
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> yes
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> there can be 
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> however
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> again, Azz believes that Moderation should NEVER occur
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> in any capacity 
[11:51] <Kingbahamut> Jailed yes, Moderated no 
[11:52] <LaserJock> hmm, I don't know. I think every form of communication has some form of moderation
[11:52] <Kingbahamut> thus being the nature of communication
[11:53] <Kingbahamut> I think most everyone is just too emotional over it all 
[11:53] <Kingbahamut> to think clear enough 
[11:53] <LaserJock> right
[11:53] <mdke> yeah
[11:53] <Kingbahamut> even myself to an extent 
[11:53] <Kingbahamut> however I have much more removed myself
[11:53] <Kingbahamut> from the furor that was my conversation with Kyral 
[11:53] <Kingbahamut> which spawned my problems with Amaranth 
[11:53] <LaserJock> I know my friend Kyral has gotten hot a lot
[11:54] <mdke> the problem is this: people on both sides have become so personally involved, that it is difficult to see them ending. but the bigger picture that I see, is that there have been issues, they are being addressed, and things will improve
[11:54] <mdke> the individial bickering probably won't end
[11:54] <mdke> but it doesn't matter
[11:54] <Kingbahamut> LaserJock, Kyral and I had it out for a long session 
[11:54] <mdke> because the broader issues are being resolved
[11:54] <Kingbahamut> it took me a long bit to prove to Amaranth that Im really not an a-hole
[11:55] <theCore> why there isn't a side council in which the members would be elected by the community?
[11:55] <LaserJock> Kingbahamut: I can imagine, he's a great guy but gets worked up really fast
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> theCore, I have suggested this
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> more than once
[11:55] <mdke> a side council?
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> and on a variety of levels
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> if the users, Members and NonMembers alike
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> had a voice
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> I doubt seriously
[11:55] <Kingbahamut> the issues that we have would be as severe in nature 
[11:56] <mdke> ah you mean on the forum?
[11:56] <Kingbahamut> The user needs a voice 
[11:56] <mdke> good idea
[11:56] <Kingbahamut> my contention is , do the CC members speak with the user 
[11:56] <Kingbahamut> on a daily basis
[11:56] <mdke> oh
[11:56] <Kingbahamut> do they have intimate knowledge of the user 
[11:56] <mdke> i thought you meant the forum
[11:56] <mdke> every user is free to attend the CC meetings
[11:57] <Kingbahamut> of course they are 
[11:57] <LaserJock> Kingbahamut: I'm not sure that they don't but I understand where you are coming from
[11:57] <Kingbahamut> but 
[11:57] <Kingbahamut> how many users understand how to get there? 
[11:57] <mdke> Kingbahamut, as many as want to know
[11:57] <mdke> and can read the website
[11:57] <Kingbahamut> I dont think its that easy 
[11:57] <Kingbahamut> but you might be correct in that assumption 
[11:57] <Kingbahamut> the user doesnt understand the relationship
[11:58] <Kingbahamut> at least many of the users I interact with dont 
[11:58] <mdke> i don't think it has to
[11:58] <LaserJock> well the CC is pretty busy with other things, it would make sense to have some sort of mediation team that could look at these things
[11:58] <mdke> the CC is a body at the top of a pyramid
[11:58] <mdke> the lower bits of the pyramid represent various bits of the community
[11:58] <theCore> maybe if we give every users a role, it would solve some problems
[11:58] <mdke> the CC makes top level decisions about the future of Ubuntu, it shouldn't exist to sort out scrapping between users
[11:58] <mdke> unless it cannot be resolved at any other level
[11:59] <theCore> mdke, true
[11:59] <Kingbahamut> I aggree with the concept 
[11:59] <Kingbahamut> of a mediation team
[11:59] <mdke> well a mediation team is now being set up on the forum
[11:59] <mdke> i believe that will help
[11:59] <mdke> as will the other initiatives that ubuntu-geek has proposed
[11:59] <mdke> the individual squabbling will have to die out gradually
[12:00] <Kingbahamut> eventually 
[12:00] <Kingbahamut> yes 
[12:00] <LaserJock> is there some place where I can see the hierarchy of the forum leadership or something
[12:00] <Kingbahamut> sure
[12:00] <Kingbahamut> Forum leaders
[12:00] <Kingbahamut> at the bottom 
[12:02] <Kingbahamut> a quick question for you guys though 
[12:02] <LaserJock> I can't find it
[12:02] <LaserJock> ooops
[12:02] <Kingbahamut> Do any of you think I am the "leader" of this "gang"?
[12:02] <LaserJock> I found it
[12:02] <mdke> Kingbahamut, which gang?
[12:02] <Kingbahamut> the forums gang?
[12:03] <LaserJock> I really haven't heard anything about you honestly
[12:03] <theCore> me too
[12:03] <Kingbahamut> hmmm
[12:03] <Kingbahamut> a number of communications Ive had 
[12:03] <Kingbahamut> not with any of you mind you 
[12:03] <Kingbahamut> have stated that Im the gang leader 
[12:04] <Kingbahamut> and that I make the decisions to things regarding the forum 
[12:04] <LaserJock> I hear mostly about kassetra and arnie 
[12:04] <mdke> no, i communicate with ubuntugeek quite a lot, so I know he is the forum admin
[12:04] <Kingbahamut> ok 
[12:04] <Kingbahamut> im just asking