| === ubuntulog [n=ubuntulo@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 1 released | Dapper has new kernels and new world order, upgrading for the adventurous only (and those with another machine to use) | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by Keybuk at Tue Dec 6 14:40:00 2005 | ||
| === #ubuntu-devel [freenode-info] If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks! | ||
| (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-devel) jbailey_: true, but I would argue multiarch is saner. :-) | 12:33 | |
| (Kamion/#ubuntu-devel) multiarch is a very much more constrained problem. I agree with you that it's similar in nature but I think the difference in degree produces a very big difference in feasibility. | 12:34 | |
| (wasabi/#ubuntu-devel) Well, I was pondering the idea of setting up the infrastructure for it, anyways, and restrcting them to .local-dpkg or something in the home dir. Perhaps allowing the possibility of per-user software to exist as downloadable .debs. | 12:34 | |
| (Kamion/#ubuntu-devel) and I don't think we should even think about it until we've done multiarch. | 12:34 | |
| (wasabi/#ubuntu-devel) Guess it doesn't matter though. | 12:34 | |
| wasabi | I don't have a problem to solve. | 12:34 |
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| mdke | jbailey_, the debdiff appears to show that a shitload of files have changed, although I didn't touch em. :( | 01:15 |
| mdke | http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/5568 | 01:15 |
| mdke | jbailey_, I changed the debian/ files, and gnome/aboutubuntu, nothing else | 01:16 |
| mdke | jbailey_, actually don't worry, none of that junk is actually in the package | 01:17 |
| jbailey_ | Oh good. =) | 01:18 |
| mdke | jbailey_, the source package just has the whole svn tree in though, so the debdiff is like 10MB, may be hard to get that past mdz with the excuse that none of the files are actually shipped with the package | 01:19 |
| jbailey_ | jbailey@starshine:~$ cat .devscripts | 01:19 |
| jbailey_ | DEBUILD_DPKG_BUILDPACKAGE_OPTS="-I.bzr -I.svn" | 01:19 |
| jbailey_ | mdke: Suggest that you do that. =) | 01:19 |
| mdke | yeah but that still leaves a whole load of shit | 01:19 |
| jbailey_ | That shouldn't leave any svn stuff behind. | 01:20 |
| mdke | it cuts it down to 700kb or so | 01:20 |
| jbailey_ | Yay, finally off the phone. | 01:20 |
| mdke | jbailey_, but it includes loads of stuff which we don't actually ship, such as all the stuff on here: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/5568 | 01:20 |
| jbailey_ | The amazing part is that my coldless seems to have about 5 hours of talktime. | 01:20 |
| jbailey_ | I just got low battery warning, but it didn't die. | 01:21 |
| mdke | lol | 01:21 |
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| jbailey_ | Can you install interdiff and redo the debdiff? | 01:21 |
| mdke | jbailey_, if you walk me through it to some extent I can :) | 01:22 |
| jbailey_ | mdke: sudo apt-get install interdiff | 01:23 |
| Mithrandir | mdke: s/interdiff/patchutils/ | 01:23 |
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| jbailey_ | Right, what tollef said. | 01:23 |
| mdke | done | 01:24 |
| jbailey_ | If you have the old package from apt-get source ubuntu-docs, and the new package from running debuild on it in a directory, you can then do debdiff *dsc | 01:24 |
| mdke | ok gimme a tic, just rebuilding the package | 01:24 |
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| mdke | hmm | 01:27 |
| mdke | it builds a lot of stuff we don't need for the package | 01:27 |
| === mdke twiddles thumbs | ||
| mdke | jbailey_, all the localised html isn't actually installed in the package, should I remove it from the build, or just bite the bullet and leave it in? | 01:29 |
| jbailey_ | mdke: You want to make the fewest number of changes you can to the stable version. | 01:30 |
| mdke | so i'll leave it | 01:31 |
| jbailey_ | mdz will look at anything that's not a necessary change and question it, since it runs a risk of breaking things in a way you didn't expect. | 01:31 |
| mdke | it's sorted for dapper anyway | 01:31 |
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| jbailey_ | Didn't you say this is for breezy-updates? | 01:31 |
| mdke | yes | 01:31 |
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| mdke | i'll limit changes to only the absolutely necessary ones | 01:32 |
| mdke | jbailey_, doing the debdiff, does it save it for me or do I need to > ? | 01:36 |
| jbailey_ | > | 01:36 |
| mdke | jbailey_, it's quite fat: http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/breezy/ubuntu-docs.diff | 01:37 |
| jbailey_ | Eh, why are all the KDE imagaes different? | 01:38 |
| maswan | I wrote a thingie about the breezy release (and sarge) from a main mirror point of view, comments and bugreports would be nice: http://www.acc.umu.se/~maswan/2005-12-10/2gbit-freesoftware.html | 01:38 |
| mdke | jbailey_, they are probably uploads which we did in order to upload to the website | 01:39 |
| jbailey_ | I'm a bit concerned about all the instances of Binary files /tmp/Isvitm01NH/ubuntu-docs-5.10/gnome/quicktour/UbuntuStrapLogo.png and /tmp/w2i1S3YrUF/ubuntu-docs-5.10/gnome/quicktour/UbuntuStrapLogo.png differ | 01:41 |
| jbailey_ | and the like. | 01:41 |
| jbailey_ | The actual text changes generally seem fine | 01:41 |
| jbailey_ | (without having validated the CSS chanegs and such) | 01:41 |
| mdke | jbailey_, those files are not in debian/install tho | 01:42 |
| mdke | hardly anything in that diff is | 01:42 |
| mdke | oh shit quicktour is | 01:42 |
| mdke | jbailey_, dunno what to do about that :( | 01:46 |
| jbailey_ | Dunno. I'm tired and not thinking clearly. | 01:46 |
| mdke | jbailey_, ok we can try again another time :) | 01:47 |
| mdke | in the meantime I'll work on getting new translations | 01:47 |
| mdke | jbailey_, crazy thing about the quicktour is that it is not referenced by any program in Ubuntu, it just sits on the harddrive there. It was never really intended to be shipped, it's more of an online doc | 01:48 |
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| psusi | bootchart does a nice job of logging how much IO is going on during boot... but is there a way to find out which files are being accessed? I think there is a lot more that could be added to readahead-list | 01:59 |
| elmo | hmm, lilo has a very purty splash screen - is gfxboot giving us that? | 02:37 |
| mdke | jdub, was any progress made on the planet synching issues? | 02:42 |
| BenC | have we ever considered including linmodem/pctel drivers, and if so, what was the outcome? | 02:44 |
| calc | related to that is there any plans to setup xinerama at install time, or did i just miss it? | 02:45 |
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| Robot101 | what lsb-base version does log_daemon_message appear in? | 02:52 |
| Robot101 | the breezy one appears not to have it, but this dbus 0.60 deb uses it | 02:52 |
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| mdke | hi all | 03:05 |
| jdong | dumb question of the night: Would gstreamer 0.10 backport? ;) | 03:05 |
| jdong | btw hi mdke | 03:05 |
| mdke | hiya | 03:06 |
| mdke | dapper looks like it's working, but in tty1 I am getting constant errors from ata2 like this: http://pastebin.com/457952 | 03:06 |
| mdke | flying past all the time | 03:06 |
| mdke | is this a kernel problem? | 03:06 |
| jdong | cool, libata passthru? | 03:07 |
| jdong | (cool in the not my computer is affected way) | 03:07 |
| mdke | well the computer seems to work ok | 03:07 |
| jdong | so it seems like non-critical ATA commands aren't translating well | 03:07 |
| jdong | <- not a kernel expert by any measure | 03:08 |
| mdke | where do I file the bug? | 03:08 |
| mdke | kernel? | 03:08 |
| jdong | that's definitely kernel | 03:08 |
| jdong | though idn if the guys would appreciate a bug on it | 03:08 |
| jdong | they might already know | 03:08 |
| jdong | given the sheer volume of these errors ;) | 03:08 |
| jdong | I gotta get a Dapper box up | 03:08 |
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| ptlo | jdong: there seem to be no gst 0.10 packages for breezy available anywhere on the net, although, I just compiled it from source am happy to say that it doesn't require any stuff that cannot be found in breezy - so there's no reason why it wouldn't backport (soon/one day) | 03:13 |
| jdong | ptlo: currently compiling it also (though my other tasks are slowing it down) -- saw something in the changelog about conflicting gstreamer0.8-tools | 03:14 |
| jdong | that concerned me | 03:14 |
| jdong | I suppose some gst-* packages need to be pulled back as well | 03:15 |
| ptlo | jdong: afaik all the libs and the tool names end up in either 0.8 (for the old one) or 0.10 (for the new gst); there's no clash, they should be paralel-installable | 03:15 |
| jdong | cool | 03:16 |
| jdong | god vmware slows everything down | 03:20 |
| === ubuntulog [n=ubuntulo@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 1 released | Dapper has new kernels and new world order, upgrading for the adventurous only (and those with another machine to use) | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by Keybuk at Tue Dec 6 14:40:00 2005 | ||
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| === #ubuntu-devel [freenode-info] If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks! | ||
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| (mdke/#ubuntu-devel) wb | 03:26 | |
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| (jdong/#ubuntu-devel) lol | 03:26 | |
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| (jdong/#ubuntu-devel) is it just me or is freenode plain weird today | 03:26 | |
| djk_ | the latter | 03:26 |
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| jdong | yeah.... | 03:26 |
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| jdong | 2nd dumb question of the day: is gstreamer-tools 0.10 backwards-compatible with 0.8? | 03:27 |
| djk_ | will Dapper support Reiser4? | 03:27 |
| jdong | djk_: not unless it gets in mainline linux soon | 03:27 |
| djk_ | mmh, i suppose that's not likely. | 03:28 |
| jdong | djk_: you got that right :-/ | 03:29 |
| djk_ | :( | 03:29 |
| jdong | djk_: reiser4 makes a few kernel patches deep down, so it's not like other filesystems in that aspect | 03:29 |
| jdong | djk_: maintaining it will be more trouble than it's worth | 03:30 |
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| djk_ | well, it needs to be tested though :) | 03:30 |
| jdong | djk_: that's not our job :) | 03:31 |
| jdong | djk_: there are already a few distros that include varying levels of reiser4 support | 03:31 |
| jdong | some gentoo derivatives (rr4), SuSE 9.3+, Linspire.... | 03:31 |
| jdong | but they made quite a commitment to reiser4 | 03:32 |
| maswan | is it worth it? I mean, outside reiser's own benchmarks? | 03:32 |
| djk_ | well, gentoo would be an option.. but suse and linspire..naa. | 03:32 |
| jdong | maswan: if it's in mainline, I'd be using it right now | 03:32 |
| maswan | jdong: why? | 03:32 |
| jdong | speed and reliablity improvements are REAL | 03:32 |
| jdong | it's the only atomic filesystem | 03:33 |
| maswan | realiabilty from reiser? that is indeed a new development | 03:33 |
| jdong | well, don't be too prejudiced | 03:33 |
| jdong | reiserfs is nowadays one of the most reliable FSes | 03:33 |
| jdong | reiser4 is fully atomic | 03:33 |
| jdong | only ext3/reiserfs under data=journal currently can do the same | 03:33 |
| jdong | at a GREAT performance cost | 03:34 |
| maswan | well, I guess I might take a look at it in a few years, after it has seen a couple of years of mainline usage and testing | 03:34 |
| maswan | sorry, have some bad experiences. and bad impression from hans too. | 03:35 |
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| jdong | maswan: likewise, in the 2.4 days for me | 03:40 |
| jdong | maswan: reiserfs has stabilized nicely recently | 03:40 |
| jdong | from Hoary on, reiserfs has treated me well | 03:40 |
| jdong | and trust me -- at times I'm a VERY terrible PC user :) | 03:41 |
| jdong | especially while hacking wifi drivers ;) | 03:41 |
| maswan | well, the worst thing I've done to a filesystem is to have it mounted with atime and locate for a couple of weeks. on a raid system where ever 64th bit became a 0. lots of intEresTingLy.cApseD.fiLes in directories | 03:42 |
| djk_ | jdong: why did you say that maintaining reiser4 will be more trouble done it's worth if you think that it's great? | 03:42 |
| maswan | well, to start with, after a while, all the directory entries were shot due to atime updates | 03:42 |
| jdong | djk_: reiser4 patches are some of the most finicky patches out there | 03:43 |
| jdong | djk_: I mean, applying unrelated ck patches can cause reiser4 to start panicking for no apparent reason | 03:43 |
| maswan | after fixing the raid module, I got all the files back though. in lost+found. luckily one of the files was an MD5SUMS of all the other files. | 03:43 |
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| jdong | maswan: so can you blame your problem on reiser then? | 03:44 |
| jdong | hi, seth | 03:44 |
| maswan | jdong: that wasn't reiser, that was xfs. | 03:45 |
| jdong | OH | 03:45 |
| jdong | then that's a completely different story | 03:45 |
| jdong | don't get me started on XFS | 03:45 |
| maswan | don't know how reiser would react to having all the directory entries overwritten with crap data | 03:45 |
| jdong | maswan: reiserfs is amazingly recoverable | 03:45 |
| maswan | we use it all the time for production use at work | 03:45 |
| maswan | jdong: so is XFS | 03:45 |
| jdong | maswan: agreed, though in my experience XFS corrupts a lot more than reiserfs | 03:46 |
| maswan | well, current reiser is way out anyway, due to performance | 03:46 |
| jdong | maswan: most of the time it can be attributed to XFS's caching, but I've experienced METADATA corruption on abrupt shutdowns before | 03:46 |
| jdong | maswan: I can't reproduce the latter, so for now I won't blame XFS for it | 03:47 |
| jdong | however, it has too high CPU usage for my tastes | 03:47 |
| maswan | oh, we very seldom have abrupt shutdowns. happened 3 times the last 4 years or so. | 03:47 |
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| jdong | maswan: that's why you've had such good luck with XFS | 03:47 |
| jdong | give it some power backup, it's a great FS | 03:47 |
| jdong | otherwise, don't expect to find your non O_SYNC files.... | 03:47 |
| jdong | ever | 03:48 |
| jdong | xfs's userland tools rock, too | 03:48 |
| jdong | dump, freeze | 03:48 |
| maswan | I know it has some issues for some use cases where it is perhaps a bit too agressive in write-back, but, *shrug*, not a prolbem for us | 03:48 |
| jdong | maswan: i.e. laptops | 03:49 |
| maswan | also, for us, it is a fileserver, it isn't going to do much else with the cpu anyway. | 03:49 |
| jdong | true | 03:49 |
| jdong | but on a desktop when unpacking a huge nicely compressed tarball causes multimedia to grind to a halt.... | 03:49 |
| maswan | hmm.. last reboot was the breezy upgrade. I think I had 170-180 days before that. :) | 03:49 |
| jdong | lol | 03:49 |
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| jdong | JFS is currently my favorite | 03:50 |
| djk_ | is there some non-biased literature about the different FSs? | 03:50 |
| maswan | yeah, it was xfs vs jfs, and we had slightly better streaming performance through xfs. also, we got a bad case out of that when it replayed the journal for a couple of days. | 03:50 |
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| maswan | hmm.. that might have been my fault too though, I thnk that was when I was stress-testing another raid controller for reliability. | 03:51 |
| maswan | if you switch two disks on an older 3ware controller (so that no writes are done when they are out), it won't detect that you have removed a disk and assumes the raidset is ok. | 03:51 |
| jdong | XFS is faster; I won't dispute that | 03:51 |
| jdong | but JFS is reasonably fast | 03:52 |
| jdong | is reliable under repeated hard shutdowns | 03:52 |
| === maswan nods | ||
| jdong | and also excels at not having disk IO interrupt other work | 03:52 |
| jdong | i.e. video playback | 03:52 |
| jdong | I have 3 vmwares running right now | 03:52 |
| maswan | well, we only really care about performance for fileservers on ups/diesel, so.. :) | 03:53 |
| maswan | fileservers with performance demands | 03:53 |
| jdong | XFS is your friend then | 03:55 |
| jdong | and it online defrags too | 03:55 |
| jdong | which helps out after prolong heavy write use | 03:55 |
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| fabbione | morning | 06:18 |
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| viviersf | lo fabbione | 06:25 |
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| shadeofgrey | hello everyone | 08:47 |
| zakame | heya shadeofgrey :) | 08:47 |
| shadeofgrey | uh... ive never officially introduced myself... my name is Chris Kelly and im very interested in helping out with testing / suggesting improvements to the accessibility modules availasble in ubuntu | 08:48 |
| TheMuso | shadeofgrey: Firstly I suggest you join the ubuntu accessibility mailing list, and look at the accessibility wiki page at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility. | 08:49 |
| zakame | ooh, that's good! | 08:49 |
| TheMuso | YOu can find out the mailing list address in one of the links from that page. | 08:49 |
| shadeofgrey | i was born eight weeks premature addicted to crack cocaine and hertoin, and as a result im severely handicapped... i have cerebral palsy, am a spasdic quadreplegiuc, and only have good control of one limb -- my left arm | 08:49 |
| shadeofgrey | i type with three fingers on my kleft hand and when sober can average 70 words a minute... | 08:50 |
| rob1 | thats pretty quick with one hand | 08:51 |
| shadeofgrey | but as you can imagine, any sort of aides that could be worked into ubuntu to help people with limited mobility get the most out of their system would be a great thing... | 08:51 |
| TheMuso | shadeofgrey: We would be happy to have you join us. Nice to have a few different disabled people on the team. | 08:51 |
| shadeofgrey | robl: i practived 7 hours a day every day every summer between school years | 08:51 |
| shadeofgrey | im also capable of totally dressing myself except for my shoes, and dont need help with showers or anything either... im fiercely determined and very independant. | 08:52 |
| shadeofgrey | it took me a decade to figure out how to put my clothes on by myself, and i started working on that when i was six... you can imagine my excitement when i dsuccessfully put all my clothes on by myself for the first time ever on my 16th birthday | 08:53 |
| shadeofgrey | so | 08:54 |
| shadeofgrey | with me on the team, i think we can make great things happen... i happen to kbow a few things about overcoming insurmountable odds... and if nothing else, ill be great moral support to all the folks that actually do all the code writing | 08:57 |
| shadeofgrey | sadly, im not a coder | 08:57 |
| shadeofgrey | but im one hell of a thorough program tester | 08:57 |
| TheMuso | I am not really a coder either, yet. | 08:57 |
| shadeofgrey | and if nothing else i could definately help with maintaining or even creating whatever documentation we need to make publically available. | 08:58 |
| shadeofgrey | im not a smart man, and im no good at contact sports, but I am one hell of a genuinely talented and driven writer -- i write full lerngth novels -- i hope to be the next tom clancy/michael critchton/john griusham | 08:59 |
| shadeofgrey | im also good with poetry and motivational material for disabled people -- or really anybody that struggles with something | 09:00 |
| shadeofgrey | i firmly believe that we all face huge struggles in each and every one of our lives.. its just a matter of how visible they are | 09:00 |
| shadeofgrey | oh and just for the record - i didnt tell my lifestory with the intrention of fishing for pity... i just wanted to make my position very clear, so that you guys and gals can better decide where i mighty be of best use among all the other team members | 09:06 |
| shadeofgrey | without a doubt, i am by far one of the coolest disabled folks you'll meet... i believe in the power of courage, and in helping others whenever possible... im also steadfastly loyal ...and a hopeless romantic | 09:09 |
| shadeofgrey | ...just in case there happen to be a few single gorgeous code-writing geeks somewhere in this channel | 09:09 |
| shadeofgrey | anyway thankds for the guidance.... | 09:09 |
| shadeofgrey | ...i dont suppose i could convince of you nice people to supply me with a sources.list file so i can upgrade to the test release of Dapper? | 09:10 |
| shadeofgrey | no worries - all my important crap is stored on a secondary drive, so if i screw my main ubuntu installation to hell all i have to do is replace it | 09:11 |
| Amaranth | shadeofgrey: change breezy to dapper in sources.list | 09:12 |
| shadeofgrey | amar: can you please just paste the contents of your sources.list file to a query window? itd make my life a LOT easier | 09:14 |
| shadeofgrey | Amaranth: id reallyappreciate the extra help | 09:15 |
| Amaranth | i don't have it handy, i'm on windows right now | 09:15 |
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| fabbione | hey pitti | 10:08 |
| pitti | Hi fabbione | 10:08 |
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| tseng | jdub: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4817874081068161718 < pimp my fridge! | 11:23 |
| siretart | Thanks for your interest in Google Video. | 11:24 |
| siretart | Currently, the playback feature of Google Video isn't available in your country. | 11:24 |
| siretart | :( | 11:24 |
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| dl1bku | Q: In order to compile an Input-driver for xorg the package xorg-x11-sdk (rpm name) is necessary. Is there a similar ubuntu package for this? (google and friends say there isn't). Do I need to install the complete xorg-sources? | 01:15 |
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| mdke | jbailey_, for when you wake up: how about I work on a copy of the breezy source for preparing the update, rather than the branch in svn? it might eliminate a lot of changes :) alternatively, I could make a new branch with that source | 01:40 |
| dl1bku | Using the header files from an xorg-x11-sdk.rpm (using alien) helped... gb | 01:49 |
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| pitti | Hi seb128 | 02:15 |
| seb128 | hey pitti | 02:15 |
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| crimsun | elmo: please sync vm from Sid, overriding Ubuntu changes, thanks | 02:20 |
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| crimsun | elmo: please sync varconf from Sid, overriding Ubuntu changes, thanks | 02:35 |
| jbailey_ | mdke: That's generally what I do. The problem with SVNs versus packages is that there's always the chance that someone modified the version in the archive. | 02:36 |
| jbailey_ | Native packages suck that way. | 02:36 |
| jbailey | mdke: hct is ultimately the right solution for that. | 02:37 |
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| mdke | jbailey, hct? | 02:49 |
| jbailey | mdke: It's magic crack that Keybuk is working on. If you think of it as a version control system that's hosted on the Ubuntu servers with a magic button that says "upload what's in the repository", that's it. | 02:51 |
| jbailey | The trick is that folks will be forced to use that eventually. | 02:51 |
| mdke | ok... | 02:51 |
| jbailey | So that way, you're guaranteed that uploads match what's in the version control. | 02:51 |
| mdke | how many version control systems are you guys working on?!? | 02:51 |
| jbailey | Well, it's wrapped around bzr. | 02:51 |
| mdke | aha | 02:51 |
| jbailey | What hct does that bzr doesn't is understand packaging. | 02:52 |
| mdke | jbailey, so for now I'll just work locally with the source, and then if necessary, I'll make a separate branch or something | 02:52 |
| jbailey | Right. | 02:52 |
| StevenK | "Magic crack" | 02:52 |
| StevenK | Heh | 02:53 |
| jbailey | StevenK: It truly is. =) | 02:53 |
| \sh | StevenK: it was quite impressing what scott showed us during ubz | 02:53 |
| jbailey | You know how dpatch and simple-patchsys has patch management and such, right? | 02:53 |
| jbailey | It has the ability to unpack a working directory as each patch iteration. | 02:53 |
| jbailey | You just go through and edit the code, and it'll roll it into that patch file. | 02:53 |
| jbailey | That way you can clearly track what's upstream, what are hacks to make it work, and what is packaging outside of that. | 02:54 |
| StevenK | But it's just crack laced with a few hallucinogenics! | 02:54 |
| jbailey | It's shared, so that let's say I have a little tweak to ubuntu-docs, I can just go in and make it. It'll be easy for mdke to see that I've made the change and merge it in before he uploads it. | 02:54 |
| jbailey | I don't even need to tell him about it, and it could be to any part of the system. | 02:55 |
| StevenK | Geez, magic crack indeed. | 02:56 |
| StevenK | Who's Keybuks dealer? :-) | 02:56 |
| jbailey | sabdfl =) | 02:57 |
| zakame | hrhr | 02:57 |
| StevenK | Bwahaha | 02:58 |
| \sh | the daily python crack pipe | 02:58 |
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| siretart | jbailey: around? | 03:03 |
| siretart | jbailey: do you know where lddlibc4 has gone? | 03:03 |
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| jbailey | lddlibc4? | 03:03 |
| jbailey | What's that? | 03:03 |
| StevenK | I'm sorry I even read that line now. | 03:04 |
| siretart | ldconfig spits at me that it cannot find it | 03:04 |
| jbailey | libc4 was the old a.out libc. | 03:04 |
| StevenK | *blink* | 03:04 |
| jbailey | siretart: I'm pretty certain it has never existed in Ubuntu. | 03:04 |
| siretart | jbailey: it used to be in libc6: http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=libc6&version=hoary&arch=i386&page=1&number=all | 03:04 |
| siretart | jbailey: it has | 03:04 |
| jbailey | Eh? When did we get a packages.ubuntu.com? | 03:05 |
| siretart | jbailey: some time ago | 03:05 |
| StevenK | A while ago. | 03:05 |
| ogra | jbailey, ith hoary | 03:05 |
| ogra | *with | 03:05 |
| siretart | >> dpkg -L libc6 | grep libc4 | 03:05 |
| siretart | /usr/bin/lddlibc4 | 03:05 |
| siretart | on a breezy/x86 system | 03:05 |
| jbailey | Ah, interesting. | 03:05 |
| sladen | jbailey: about 18months ago | 03:05 |
| jbailey | It must've been dropped when we switched to libc2.3.5 | 03:05 |
| StevenK | It still exists on my sid machine. | 03:06 |
| siretart | well, I get this one: >> ldd doom.x86 | 03:06 |
| siretart | /usr/bin/ldd: line 95: lddlibc4: command not found | 03:06 |
| siretart | not a dynamic executable | 03:06 |
| siretart | so I'm a bit confused | 03:06 |
| jbailey | Hmm, it's still in the tree. | 03:07 |
| sladen | that must be a very old doom executable... there are plenty of source-based versions built to modern standards around | 03:07 |
| siretart | hm. it exists on x86 but not on amd64. | 03:07 |
| jbailey | /* Stub for ldd script to print Linux libc4 dependencies. | 03:07 |
| siretart | sladen: it is doom3. not that old ;) | 03:07 |
| jbailey | siretart: If it's libc4, you're talking 10 years or so. | 03:08 |
| siretart | jbailey: it is not libc4. it is shipped with a libstdc++5 | 03:08 |
| mdke | jbailey, the debdiff is a lot smaller now :D | 03:08 |
| mdke | http://mdke.org/debdiff.txt | 03:08 |
| jbailey | Yeah, random note to all people. In dapper+1, executables like these are almost guarnateed to not work again. | 03:08 |
| StevenK | Noooooooooooooooooooooo | 03:08 |
| crimsun | jbailey: out of curiosity, does it make sense to execute /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 on i386? | 03:08 |
| StevenK | How am I supposed to run ut2004 and doom3 then? | 03:09 |
| jbailey | crimsun: What problem are you trying to solve? | 03:09 |
| siretart | jbailey: it is rather some weird elf format, so /lib/ld.so.conf --verify fails. now ldd tries to fallback to lddlibc4, which fails because it does not exist | 03:09 |
| jbailey | StevenK: Make a dapper chroot. | 03:09 |
| crimsun | jbailey: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/a/alsa-lib/1.0.10-1ubuntu1/alsa-lib_1.0.10-1ubuntu1_20051203-0850-i386-failed.gz | 03:09 |
| crimsun | jbailey: the dpkg-shlibdeps call on line 3189 | 03:09 |
| jbailey | crimsun: Without looking, can I guess that it's in dokg-=shlibdeps? | 03:09 |
| crimsun | indeed | 03:10 |
| siretart | jbailey: do you know how to install the nvidia glx libraries without kernel modules (in dapper that is)? | 03:10 |
| jbailey | Right. I need to file a bug on dpkg, critical, saying that if they don't fix dpkg-shlibdeps a reasonable portion of i386 is going to no longer build soon. | 03:10 |
| jbailey | *sigh* | 03:10 |
| siretart | excatly :( | 03:11 |
| jbailey | siretart: No idea. My nVidia setup Just Works, and I don't pay much attention to it. | 03:11 |
| siretart | yeah. saves much headaches.. | 03:11 |
| jbailey | crimsun: It's a casualty of the biarch stuff. | 03:11 |
| siretart | I should do as well | 03:11 |
| jbailey | crimsun: It'll have to get fixed in the next week or two, I'm guess. We'll be giving that same love to X, gtk, etc... | 03:11 |
| crimsun | jbailey: k, as long as it's valid. Thanks. | 03:12 |
| jbailey | crimsun: Very much so. | 03:12 |
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| jbailey | crimsun: dpkg is crufty. It relies on ldd to give it the right answers for things, and ldd can't do cross arch well. Specifically, it requires that it be run on an amd64 machine. | 03:13 |
| crimsun | jbailey: right, that's what I was led to believe | 03:14 |
| infinity | siretart : Why would you WANT nvidia-glx without a kernel module? | 03:14 |
| siretart | infinity: to run 32bit games in a 32bit dapper chroot | 03:14 |
| siretart | with hardware acceleration | 03:14 |
| infinity | Erm. | 03:15 |
| infinity | Install ia32-libs and play them in the host system. | 03:15 |
| infinity | You can play 32-bit games on amd64 just fine. | 03:15 |
| infinity | (In fact, I use doom3 for testing nvidia-glx on my girlfriend's amd64 machine before I upload) | 03:15 |
| siretart | infinity: the game in question refuses to do so, because it depends on a 32bit libSDL | 03:15 |
| siretart | infinity: interestingly enough: doom3 works, but quake4 broke yesterday :/ | 03:16 |
| infinity | Anyhow, you could always do 1 of 2 things. Either install nvidia-glx in your chroot with --force-depends, or install a kernel in your chroot too. It's not like having a kernel package in the chroot HURTS, it's just wasted space. | 03:16 |
| infinity | I need to grab Quake4 for "testing"... | 03:16 |
| StevenK | Mmmmm, me too. | 03:16 |
| siretart | :) | 03:17 |
| StevenK | See if it gets boring like Quake3. | 03:17 |
| infinity | StevenK : I still vaguely recall whuppin' your ass at Quake3 several years ago... | 03:17 |
| crimsun | heh, no chance for me w/ this intel i915 | 03:17 |
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| infinity | siretart : You could also use 'equivs' to build a dummy package that provides the nvidia-kernel-### package that nvidia-glx is whining about. | 03:18 |
| \sh | I wonder if it's possible to play doom3 or quake4 via xdmcp enabled x host | 03:18 |
| siretart | infinity: good point | 03:18 |
| StevenK | infinity: I don't ... | 03:19 |
| siretart | I just installed it (with kernel, udev and crap). now doom3 magically segfaults.. grml.. | 03:19 |
| infinity | siretart : Anyhow, I'm intentionally not going to make it any easier than that, cause the average user kinda needs that dependency there to avoid shooting themselves in the foot any more than they already do. | 03:19 |
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| siretart | infinity: I agree | 03:19 |
| infinity | Now, if we need a 32-bit libSDL for gaming, perhaps we should roll an ia32-libs-videogames package.. | 03:20 |
| === infinity ughs. | ||
| jbailey | infinity: Feh, don't add more packages to the list. ia32-libs is supposed to go away, remember? | 03:20 |
| infinity | I also need to update both the nvidia and fglrx drivers this weekend. Joy. | 03:20 |
| siretart | well, I've seen webforums recommending putting your usr and usr/lib from the chroot to /etc/ld.so.conf | 03:20 |
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| infinity | jbailey : Get me multiarch, and I agree. | 03:20 |
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| ryanpg | morning, is the plan to move to bogofilter with evolution? | 03:21 |
| infinity | jbailey : We won't have proper multiarch for dapper, and binary-only videogames are pretty fun. :) | 03:21 |
| jbailey | infinity: True. But most binary-only video games will need a dapper chroot after that to work. | 03:21 |
| infinity | ? | 03:22 |
| siretart | jbailey: doom3 runs fine without chroot | 03:22 |
| infinity | binary-only stuff tends to target reasonably old and stable libraries. Usually. | 03:22 |
| jbailey | infinity: Dropping linuxthreads. | 03:22 |
| infinity | Oh, which you'll break. | 03:22 |
| infinity | Hrm. | 03:22 |
| jbailey | Right. | 03:22 |
| jbailey | It was supposed to be dropped for dapper originally, but since this is the long lived, it makes sense to keep it here. | 03:23 |
| infinity | How can I easily disable linuxthreads in my current system to guage how badly the world will explode? | 03:23 |
| jbailey | Then people will have 5 years to learn to like newer video games. | 03:23 |
| jbailey | infinity: cp /lib/tls/* /lib | 03:23 |
| jbailey | infinity: Or I can produce you a glibc deb that's nptl only. =) | 03:24 |
| siretart | YAY FUN: LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/lib32:/usr/lib32/:/usr/local/:/var/scratch/dapper/usr/lib ./quake4 | 03:24 |
| zakame | whoa | 03:24 |
| siretart | this works for me *ugh* | 03:24 |
| infinity | jbailey : Dropping linuxthreads will make my nvidia-glx packaging less ugly... Since it ships TLS and non-TLS versions of it's crap. | 03:25 |
| infinity | jbailey : Anyhow, I'll test some games later and see how they fare. | 03:25 |
| infinity | jbailey : I suspect most won't actually care much at all. | 03:25 |
| jbailey | infinity: It'll make alot of things less ugly. | 03:25 |
| jbailey | I expect most will. The trick is that the NPTL libraries and glibc don't allow "extern int errno" in their code. | 03:26 |
| jbailey | You'll get a fail at load time. | 03:26 |
| jbailey | Subtle thread bugs are another thing, as well. | 03:26 |
| infinity | Threading issues are likely to not be a problem. | 03:27 |
| jbailey | That I don't have a guess on. | 03:27 |
| infinity | Very few older video games are well (or at all) multithreaded, and newer ones are probably tested against NPTL. | 03:27 |
| infinity | But I'd curious about this other change yo umention. | 03:27 |
| jbailey | Mm, cool. | 03:27 |
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| jbailey | And part of me wonders how many people we'll discover still running 2.4. =) | 03:28 |
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| infinity | I still remember cursing your name when you dropped LT for ppc and my breezy chroots stopped working. | 03:28 |
| infinity | Forced kernel upgrades are no fun. | 03:29 |
| jbailey | Yeah, you were sort of who I was thinking of ;) | 03:29 |
| infinity | :) | 03:29 |
| infinity | Well, I don't have 2.4 on any i386/ubuntu hosts. | 03:29 |
| infinity | Still have it on some i386/debian hosts. | 03:29 |
| infinity | So they'd need a kernel bump if I wanted to sidegrade. | 03:29 |
| jbailey | Right. Wasn't the problem that you were running Ubuntu in a chroot? | 03:30 |
| === infinity shrugs. | ||
| infinity | Yes, it's a sid box with ubuntu chroots. | 03:30 |
| infinity | Still is (the powerpc machine, that is) | 03:30 |
| infinity | Oh well, it's forced me to look at OldWorld support in 2.6 | 03:30 |
| infinity | There's a SCSI driver (MESH) I need to drag into the current century still. | 03:31 |
| infinity | How long can I expect to see "warning: foo uses a deprecated function bar()" before it becomes an error, I wonder. | 03:32 |
| infinity | I guess I'll just have to make time to fix it before that happens. | 03:33 |
| jbailey | infinity: If the driver's in-tree, I thought they didn't usually like to kill interfaces that were in use? | 03:33 |
| infinity | It's in-tree, but I get the impression that OldWorld is more likely to get drivers removed than fixed, unless someone steps up. | 03:33 |
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| siretart | infinity: which information/documentation should I read to make a ia32-libs-videogames package? | 03:46 |
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| fabbione | siretart: i think it's easier to declare world peace before going there | 03:47 |
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| siretart | fabbione: I see | 03:49 |
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| lamont | hrm... php5_5.0.5-2ubuntu2 needs to convert to db4.3 so that it's not ftbfs | 04:34 |
| lamont | ditto for php4_4:4.4.0-4 | 04:34 |
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| fabbione | lamont: yes.. infinity knows about it | 04:41 |
| fabbione | they also need to switch to libsnmp-9 | 04:41 |
| Tm_T | ok, any news/fixes related to network connection not coming up at boot | 04:46 |
| Tm_T | I remember several users got that problem here | 04:46 |
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| zyga | Seveas: ping | 04:48 |
| Tm_T | aww | 04:53 |
| Tm_T | /etc/network/interfaces was missing "auto eth0" | 04:53 |
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| sistpoty | elmo: please sync snmpkit from unstable, ubuntu override ok. thx. | 06:17 |
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| Seveas | zyga, pong | 07:26 |
| raphink | wow taht's a very long ping pong table | 07:33 |
| zyga | Seveas: hi, it seems I was not added to the UbuntuMembers team | 07:48 |
| mdke | zyga, you need to contact a community council member to be added to the launchpad team | 07:49 |
| zyga | mdke: I thought that process is automatic after you become a member (other people from the same session were added) | 07:50 |
| mdke | zyga, someone needs to approve you | 07:51 |
| zyga | I asked to join the team via launchpad, is that enough? | 07:51 |
| mdke | zyga, yes, but one of the CC members needs to accept you into the team | 07:51 |
| zyga | okay | 07:52 |
| zyga | so I guess what I did is enough | 07:52 |
| mdke | sure yeah | 07:52 |
| zyga | thanks :-) | 07:52 |
| slomo | short question... are libmpeg2, liba52, libdts and libgsm1 ok for shipping on cd? or applies the same as for libmad on one of them? | 08:00 |
| poningru | \sh_away:: dude you know that your last post is still on planet ubuntu right? and assuming on many other planets | 08:08 |
| poningru | the I FUCKING QUIT blog | 08:09 |
| ogra | poningru, he apologized in his next post | 08:16 |
| seth_k | ogra, but after that he made a post saying he removed the post, b/c of possible legal issues | 08:17 |
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| ogra | hmm, true, he should put up a new one for the apology ... | 08:19 |
| ogra | oh, they are just in the wrong order ... its still there | 08:19 |
| poningru | ogra: he did | 08:20 |
| poningru | he put up a new blog entry | 08:20 |
| poningru | and he removed his old one | 08:20 |
| poningru | but the old one persists on the planet | 08:20 |
| ogra | oh, yes ... planet needs to sync ... it will go i guess | 08:21 |
| slomo | no... the planets don't remove removed entries :/ | 08:21 |
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| ogra | how odd | 08:22 |
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| Seveas | zyga, if you're on the list of proposed members instead of the list of members, ping kamion or mako at the next CC meeting | 08:25 |
| zyga | Seveas: okay | 08:25 |
| zyga | Seveas: on the wiki I'm listed as new member | 08:26 |
| Seveas | wiki == what's said on the meeting | 08:26 |
| Seveas | launchpad == official list | 08:27 |
| zyga | so launchpad is out of sync, but that's okay as you've said | 08:27 |
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| desrt | is it possible to change the product that a bug is assigned to in launchpad? | 08:53 |
| ogra | desrt, #launchpad ? | 08:55 |
| desrt | ahah. thx. | 08:55 |
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| zwnj | seems libxml++ package has wrong dependencies: http://rafb.net/paste/results/6l61gL12.html | 09:24 |
| \sh | never trust a debian package | 09:26 |
| \sh | AC_OUTPUT([debian/Makefile \ | 09:27 |
| \sh | bah | 09:27 |
| crimsun | zwnj: it works fine in Dapper | 09:29 |
| crimsun | zwnj: works fine in Breezy, too | 09:30 |
| zwnj | crimsun: but i'm trying to install it on breezy too | 09:31 |
| zwnj | crimsun: which version do you test on breezy? | 09:32 |
| crimsun | zwnj: let's move this to #ubuntu | 09:33 |
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| nasdaq7 | hi i was wondering: how many Ubuntu users are there? | 09:37 |
| Hieronymus | nasdaq7: I'm the only one | 09:38 |
| nasdaq7 | i mean how many times has it been downloaded? | 09:39 |
| Hieronymus | you can't really tell that as you can't count all mirrors | 09:40 |
| nasdaq7 | ok | 09:41 |
| nasdaq7 | i've heard a few people say they use ubuntu | 09:41 |
| nasdaq7 | so it must becoming quite a lot | 09:41 |
| Mithrandir | nasdaq7: we passed 1M CDs shipped in April.. No idea what the current number is. | 09:41 |
| nasdaq7 | for the month? | 09:42 |
| Mithrandir | no, physical CD sets shipped. | 09:42 |
| nasdaq7 | i was wondering | 09:42 |
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| nasdaq7 | where is ubuntu going? | 09:42 |
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| nasdaq7 | will it offer the same developer opportunity as windows someday? | 09:43 |
| HiddenWolf | nasdaq7, in which sense? | 09:44 |
| \sh | "developer opportunity" means? | 09:45 |
| HiddenWolf | "getting hired by massive company" | 09:45 |
| HiddenWolf | "developing cool stuff" | 09:45 |
| HiddenWolf | what? | 09:45 |
| mpt | or getting hired by a cool company to develop massive stuff :-) | 09:45 |
| \sh | "clicking an application"? | 09:46 |
| nasdaq7 | sorry i was just away | 09:48 |
| nasdaq7 | i mean what is the goal? | 09:48 |
| nasdaq7 | create an os to rival microsoft's os | 09:48 |
| nasdaq7 | or create ubuntu and make money off the application development | 09:48 |
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| mpt | nasdaq7, https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/1 | 09:50 |
| mpt | but as for "the goal", different people have different reasons for contributing to Ubuntu | 09:50 |
| \sh | actually we want world domination...after finishing with the world domination we will fly to mars and dominating the aliens | 09:50 |
| LaserJock | \sh: that's right | 09:50 |
| Mithrandir | mpt: like, \sh obviously wants to dominate aliens. | 09:51 |
| mpt | A pre-emptive war to prevent the Martians from terrorizing us | 09:51 |
| \sh | mpt: but a war with love only... | 09:52 |
| \sh | because "Ubuntu" :) | 09:52 |
| mpt | \sh, I'm not interested in your love life or whether you like dominating :-) | 09:52 |
| Mithrandir | well, Martians != Humans, though. So we're speciesist. | 09:52 |
| \sh | mpt: ugh...that wasn't my s.. preferences | 09:53 |
| Hieronymus | nasdaq7: Ubuntu is Free software. That means, everyone can modify and/or redistribute it | 09:53 |
| nasdaq7 | are there companies you know off that are developing applications for ubuntu? | 09:53 |
| Hieronymus | http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html | 09:53 |
| mpt | Like the saying goes | 09:53 |
| mpt | You can have any OS you like, as long as it's brown | 09:54 |
| \sh | dum-dum-de-dum *ubuntu* de-dum-dum-de-dum *ubuntu* | 09:54 |
| Mithrandir | nasdaq7: vmware, for instance. | 09:55 |
| \sh | everything else is a thoughcrime | 09:55 |
| nasdaq7 | but you guys are all being paid to develop right | 09:56 |
| nasdaq7 | ? | 09:56 |
| HiddenWolf | Some, some not. | 09:56 |
| Mithrandir | nasdaq7: most Ubuntu developers are not paid to develop Ubuntu, no. | 09:56 |
| nasdaq7 | so they just like linux | 09:57 |
| nasdaq7 | etc. | 09:57 |
| nasdaq7 | and develop | 09:57 |
| Mithrandir | nasdaq7: people have different motivations, but yes, that they want their OS of choice to be even better is certainly a motivation. | 09:58 |
| nasdaq7 | ok | 09:59 |
| nasdaq7 | thanx all | 09:59 |
| nasdaq7 | see ya | 09:59 |
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| zwnj | md5sum of universe/source/Sources.gz seems to be wrong | 10:08 |
| zwnj | http://rafb.net/paste/results/Lwj2ca56.html | 10:11 |
| LaserJock | zwnj: did you do it on the .gz | 10:12 |
| zwnj | LaserJock: Oops, you're right | 10:12 |
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| zwnj | LaserJock: but, apt-get tell me this too | 10:13 |
| LaserJock | zwnj: doesn't for me | 10:13 |
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| \sh | elmo: please sync dar from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes, thx | 11:25 |
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| \sh | elmo: please sync debmirror from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes, thx | 11:34 |
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