=== mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === steve_laptop [n=steven@c-24-118-44-83.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-Doc === steve_laptop [n=steven@c-24-118-44-83.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-Doc === Kingbahamut [n=bahamut@c-24-98-229-28.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jerome@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === steve_laptop [n=steven@c-24-118-44-83.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-Doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-38-37.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lambertt [n=todd@c-24-125-47-253.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tlambert [n=todd@c-24-125-47-253.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tlambert [n=todd@c-24-125-47-253.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === mpt [n=mpt@201-27-7-12.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === steve_laptop [n=steven@c-24-118-44-83.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-Doc [03:52] hi all! [03:54] hey just a heads up, i started writing up a review of flight 2 in case anyone is interested [03:54] i will probably put it on the wiki soon [03:54] i'll post a link when its set, please feel free to add to it if you like [03:55] unless..., did anyone already start one? [03:56] flight 2 is out? [03:56] no but i am starting to prep the review, it will be very "Soon" [03:56] ahhh [03:56] nothing huge, just an overview and some screenshots and such [03:57] thought it would be nice to have an overview of improvement and such to go along with the release [03:58] like we really have a cool usplash... [03:59] yup! i already have a screenshot of it :) === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:00] good night all [05:00] here is the flight 2 overview i started in case anyone wants to add anything [05:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2 [05:01] either way, i will finish more of it in the am [05:01] later [05:02] cya === lambertt [n=todd@c-24-125-47-253.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:59] hi bhuvan [06:33] LaserJock, hello [06:35] bhuvan: you just became a Ubuntu member not long ago, right? [06:37] yes [06:37] how long did it take to get svn commit access? [06:37] almost 15 days [06:38] did you have to do anything? except wait ;-) [06:38] in my case, i guess, i happen to become ubuntu member to get svn commit access [06:39] me too, at last CC meeting [06:39] jsgotangco & mdke had issues getting svn access fo non-member. i become member, thus they were able to get it done with ease [06:39] you, yeah i know, i remember recommending you that day :) [06:40] i hope you forgot that fact :) :) [06:41] its much easier to approve commit access to a member [06:41] because elmo itself manages the keys and the servers [06:41] I don't remeber a lot of the CC meeting. Things were moving fast and it was 6:00 am for me [06:42] LaserJock, ok [06:42] itself? hmm, I always new he was a bot ;-) [06:42] I just wondered if I needed to email him or something [06:43] LaserJock, hahaha..sorry that was a slipup [06:43] jsgotangco: but a funny one [06:44] when i first started in ubuntu last year, everyone was saying elmo please sync, elmo please do that... [06:44] in my mind i thought elmo was a chat triggered bot that synced [06:44] hehe [06:44] yeah, makes sense [06:54] hi all [06:55] hi Madpilot [06:59] hmm... just realized that BitTorrent isn't mentioned at all in the Peer-to-Peer section of the Desktop Guide - despite the fact that it's the only p2p service included in Ubuntu by default - I'll have to get something written for that... [06:59] lol [07:02] tonight I'm full of good food and too much beer (staff Christmas party) :) [07:02] I'm trying to finish the last homework of my college career [07:03] getting that done will feel good, I bet [07:03] hmmm [07:03] make should work [07:03] but it doesn [07:03] t [07:03] I guess, after 8 years it will be nice to not have homework [07:05] Friday will be my last final too, that will be even better :-) [07:33] gahhh stupid me i forgot to install make [07:33] lol, that will do it [07:33] LaserJock, you were looking for me? [07:34] rob1: hmm, was I. I can't remember anymore [07:34] hey rob1 where in au are you at? === jsgotangco is flying for brisbane this weekend [07:34] 0404| LaserJock rob1: still around? [07:34] Townsville [07:34] maybe it was about yelp on dapper [07:34] about 1000km north [07:35] a bit of a drive ;-) [07:35] ugghhh [07:35] only an hour and a half by plane [07:35] if that [07:36] speaking of Yelp - is it going to acquire a search function anytime soon? [07:36] if the patches submitted are applied [07:37] rob1: anyway, I think you can disregard my ping. My yelp crashes for some reason, but it seems to just be my box [07:37] yelp is pretty dodgy [07:38] my dapper upgrade on my laptop went pretty good, a few bugs but a lot more stable then breezy was [07:38] well, I have dapper chroot and it works in that so I'm not too bothered by it [07:39] LaserJock, its a known issue [07:39] it's just that it is the only program I know of that renders docboook [07:40] jsgotangco, the fact that its dodgy, or the search function? [07:40] heh [07:40] heh [07:41] I still don't get why it renders xml so much slower than html [07:41] conglomerate is getting much better though [07:41] LaserJock, because it does some voodoo css on its own [07:41] hmm sf.net has had a face lift [07:41] for some reason, even that is slow [07:42] yeah, I tried conglomerate out the other day. Kinda confusing to me. Right now it is easier for me to just turn it into html [07:42] yes [07:43] it has such an ugly name [07:43] for some people i work with, they seem to like conglomerate [07:43] it still doesn't render correctly, but its a minor issue [07:44] I probably just need to try it more. [07:45] so there really isn't an alternative to yelp? or am I just missing something [07:45] yelp is the gnome help viewer - jdub [07:45] :D [07:46] but if I just want to render some .xml files quickly? [07:46] yet, that same line of reasoning didn't stop them creating gai when synaptic does the job much better [07:47] but hey, who am I to disagree with a developer? [07:47] rob1, synaptic is a different animal that has a different use for Ubuntu while gai is a complete turnaround to synpatic's supposed complexity [07:48] but yet, its limited, redundant and therefor useless [07:48] that's your personal opinion as a user and does not reflect the opinion of the general users [07:49] rob1: but it's (slightly) less scary than Synaptic, for some people... [07:49] as documentation/technical writers, we don't have the liberty of expressing personal opinion [07:49] not my decision really [07:49] yep [07:49] (in writing btw) [07:50] the only time I use GAI is to check what's included there or not... [07:51] actually i use gai [07:51] i like the bling it provides [07:51] I use aptitude in a shell [07:51] I think it is kinda cool, but I think that it would have been better to have basic/advanced modes of synaptic or something like that [07:52] LaserJock: you can actually launch Synaptic from GAI for advanced installs [07:52] Madpilot: right, I would like it reversed, in Synaptica have an easy button [07:52] no gui crap to get in the way, but if I was to use the graphical tools I'd use synaptic over gai for sure [07:52] we eat our own dog food [07:52] having all these install tools does make it a bit more difficult to write about [07:53] rob1, no, I don't have ops on #ubuntu [07:53] Burgundavia, yeah never mind, I got hold of crimsun [07:54] Burgundavia: wasn't that question asked about 24 hours ago?:P [07:54] Madpilot, something like that [07:54] Madpilot, I don't turn my computer off if I am at C's [07:54] I had a lengthy conversation with -motu about what to use in the Packaging Guide, we ended up deciding not to say anything ;-) [07:54] we just had users from toronto complaining to us about it [07:56] a dodgy ban that was set [07:56] LaserJock, rightfully so, people who are reading a packaging guide should already know what to use really [07:57] jsgotangco: that's what we decided. But there are some interesting things that come up between using aptitude and apt-get [07:57] jsgotangco: aptitude installs Recommends by default whereas apt-get doesn't [07:57] yeah and aptitude/apt discussion is a totally different beast heh [07:58] see http://os.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=42537&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&tid=2&tid=130&pid=0 [07:59] theres 9 reasons on there why you should be using aptitude over apt-get [08:00] actually, this ones better: http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Debian/2004-04/3181.html [08:00] yes [08:00] its often advised to use aptitude in a dist-upgrade scenario [08:01] yeah, but for me the UI was confusing enough that it took me a long time to want to use it [08:02] the Recommends by default thing is slightly concerning. You can issue the same command in apt-get and aptitude and get different results [08:02] sure, but you can turn it off [08:02] yeah, but you have to tell all the newbs that :-) [08:03] and I typically want the recommended packages anyway :) [08:03] me too [08:04] jsgotangco, are you going to Sydney when you come over here? [08:04] rob1, i might drop by, i want to go to sydney again and feel the heat [08:04] heh heat [08:04] there has been three nights of riots there [08:05] wah? [08:05] huge groups of lebs and white surfer types kicking each others butts [08:05] and anyone who is unlucky enough to be outside when they pass [08:06] and the police are mostly useless [08:06] well i could agree with the police being useless [08:07] pretty bad stuff, out police can't use non leathal weapons apart from mase and battons === jsgotangco got himself lost in sydney during UDU and the police wasn't that much help either [08:07] so umm, if you go there don't leave the airport :) [08:08] there are streets worth of cars getting smashed up, businesses etc [08:08] arggh [08:08] just like paris [08:08] yeah [08:09] they are tipping more riots tonight too [08:12] I saw a well put together mock up of a GTA case, GTA:BB (Bondi Beach) [08:12] haha [08:12] i guess it sucks to go to bondi this time of the year [08:13] ah well the weather is pretty good.. the locals are not. === teroedni [n=teroedni@ti411310a080-3221.bb.online.no] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === teroedni [n=teroedni@ti411310a080-3221.bb.online.no] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === teroedni [n=teroedni@ti411310a080-3221.bb.online.no] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:56] evening [07:57] salut [07:57] have you seen the linus-flame yet? [07:57] not yet, been too busy [07:58] the Gnome one? [07:58] yep [07:58] reading right now [07:58] quite interesting [07:58] Linus was a fool [07:59] he's an odd chap, certainly [07:59] I am not a fan of KDE personally but I can disconnect that from supporting KDE [07:59] He sure made his point "Any Gnome people who argue that it's about "usability" have their heads up [08:00] their asses so far that it's not funny." [08:00] with BIG BOLD CAPS [08:00] JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED THAT GNOME USERS ARE IDIOTS [08:00] although, I agree with a lot of what he is getting at [08:00] He seemed pretty rude about it [08:00] usability is a very nebulous concept [08:01] yes [08:01] looks great from 30k feet but needs more concrete action and usecases from the ground [08:01] that is what is missing on the usability mailing list most of the time [08:02] Jeff Waugh "None of this discussion has impacted the healthy working relationship [08:02] that the desktop developers have built, despite the dim white noise of [08:02] users beating each other to a pulp in the background." [08:02] but I agree that you can have options for advanced user while keeping things simple [08:02] that has been the biggest problem I have had with Gnome [08:03] from watching my work mates use Fedora core at work (all are windows users at home), I would say that fixing bugs is more important [08:03] they don't much care about options [08:04] in fact, only 2 of the 6 of us have customized our desktops [08:04] one moved the top bar to the bottom and removed the bottom bar and I added more workspaces and the task monitor [08:04] IE: good defaults and thus good policy matter [08:05] i was trying to show my boss kubuntu and things crashed, three or four times and was like "sometimes that happens" [08:05] I would think that they would though, if they could. I found customizing Gnome to be a big pain in the butt. It was a lot easier in KDE [08:05] LaserJock, I seriously doubt it [08:05] LaserJock, moving a panel or adding things to it is pretty easy and yet they don't do it [08:06] hmm, to be honest, that seems silly [08:06] most power users fail to realize that most non-power users don't change defaults [08:06] it took me a long time to accept that to [08:06] s/to/too [08:06] I do the same thing, but that is because I can't get Gnome to do anything the way I want it too? [08:07] but you try and fail [08:07] i think Burgwork was right when he said fixing bugs should be more important then making thing s look prettier [08:07] they don't even try because they don't care [08:07] I just find it is harder to work in Gnome, but then I am somewhat more used to KDE [08:07] i wish the smae thing was true for MS as well, make things work better then wasting time on making things look prettier [08:08] jjesse: well, sometimes it's not just prettier, it is usability [08:08] although most of the time it is just eye candy :-) [08:10] I do wish KDE worked better in Ubuntu [08:11] anyway, I am slowly conforming to the Gnome way of life [08:11] LaserJock, bug riddel is something doesn't work [08:11] LaserJock, he and Mark are keen to make Kubuntu the best KDE desktop on the planet [08:12] yeah, I was thinking of installing KDE today. Getting kinda bored with just plain old dapper [08:12] I really like Gnome though too [08:13] I just wish they could have something like "Advanced" tabs or something [08:13] LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil [08:13] really? How so? [08:13] LaserJock, if you can create a good usecase for something that bugs you, the gnome people are happy to accept that [08:13] LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil because they mess with peoples minds [08:14] people don't click them because they don't think they are advanced enough or do because they think they are [08:14] either way, it is not task driven [08:14] tabs labelled for what is actually on them is better [08:14] hmm, I just seems like you can have lots of options, but in a user friendly way [08:16] I didn't think KDE's setup was bad at all [08:16] questions need answer [08:16] s [08:16] apt-get install kubuntu-desktop [08:16] how can it get easier ? [08:16] jjesse: doing it as we speak [08:16] ergo, if you ask a user a question, you need to make certain they have the information to be able to make an informed choice on that answer [08:17] hence why Ubuntu has nothing in the install about KDE vs Gnome [08:17] we simply cannot provide enough information in the installer for the user to make an informed choice [08:17] but it shouldn't it would just complicate things [08:17] but we can ask them what their name is [08:18] I like the Gnome look and feel, but the KDE configurability [08:18] LaserJock, sometimes options are simply left off not through deliberate design choice, but merely not having enough time to figure out how to do it well [08:19] yeah, it can't be easy [08:19] anway, I think my biggest problems are with Metacity rather the Gnome itself [08:20] although the gnome-menu is kinda a problem to me [08:21] it keeps getting smaller and smaller. I just can't see how it is more usable to not be able to find applications [08:22] the end goal is not WIMP but task and document driven [08:22] there are going to be bumps along that road [08:22] WIMP? [08:23] window, icon, menu, pointing device [08:23] the current Windows, KDE and Gnome way to doing things [08:23] OS X is sort of a hybrid with its roots in WIMP [08:25] how does that work with having more than one app that can do a task? [08:26] you should never have more than one app that can do a task [08:27] that seems really weird, to be honest [08:27] who decides what app does what [08:28] the distro vendor [08:28] and you, if you change it [08:28] I have many apps that do the same thing, except some are better at some things than others [08:28] but again, most users will never change the default [08:28] LaserJock, you and I are not common computer users [08:28] I don't think that matters [08:29] My brother, a total computer newb, just went to buy photoediting software [08:29] he had many choices [08:29] how did make his decision? [08:30] he looked at a bunch of options [08:30] read the descriptions [08:30] a decision that he really actually didn't want to amek [08:30] sure he did [08:30] how would he know what he was getting otherwise [08:30] nope, he wanted photoediting software [08:31] no, he had specific tasks he wanted to be able to do [08:31] if his "distro", in this case windows, already came with what he needed, he would not have needed to make that decision [08:31] some photoediting software did his tasks better than others [08:31] it did, but it didn't do the tasks he wanted as well as he wanted [08:32] users only buy software because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to [08:32] but how is he supposed to make an informed decision if he doesn't even know what he has [08:32] i disagree, i buy software (games) that i want [08:32] in a perfect world with perfect software sure [08:32] jjesse, that is slightly different [08:33] regardless, if his distro had shipped good photoediting software, such as the GIMP and Fspot, he would not have needed to make any decision [08:33] i bought photo elements from adobe because i wanted some photo editing software without shelling out the big books for photo shop [08:34] jjesse: my brother almost got photo elements but there was another program that did what he wanted better [08:34] so he bought the one he wanted to [08:34] he bought the one that he though could do the job that he needed to do [08:34] The thing is, I just don't see how a distro can "pick" software for the user and then make it difficult for them to get anything else [08:34] Burgwork: what if fspot or gimp didn't do what he wanted or didn't come with easy to read documentation/tutorials to teach him [08:34] LaserJock, that is a straw man attack [08:35] I never said I wanted to make it difficult to get other software [08:35] I just said that you need to ship good default software [08:35] that is what I was talking about though [08:35] the menus make it difficult to get new software [08:35] if you do the latter, the former becomes less necessary [08:35] because you don't know what you have or what it is called if it is all about the tasks and not about the apps [08:35] umm "Add Applications?" [08:36] LaserJock, most people think "I need to edit a photo", not "I need to use the GIMP" [08:36] Burgwork: but why does what a distro define as good software then become what fits my needs [08:36] jjesse, because the distro can employ smart people to figure how people work [08:36] and what they need [08:36] but that seems to stiffle OSS [08:36] to be honest, users are great at telling you waht they want. They are very bad at telling you how to get what they want [08:37] that is the way MS took [08:37] LaserJock, actually, no [08:37] thhat is approach apple took [08:37] either way, I don't see how it does any good to OSS and the linux community [08:37] MS took the "cram everything into everything to try and satisfy everybody" [08:38] that is what you will have to do [08:38] I just don't see how you can put people in general in that tight of a box [08:39] certain segments, certainly (gamers, graphics design, programmers, etc.) [08:39] but the population at large, I just can't see it [08:40] anyway, I'm not totally against what you are saying Burgwork, I just can't see how it would work better than what we have now [08:41] If we had lots of time to study users and we had perfect apps, your right, no one would need to install 5 apps to do the same task. [08:41] but the fact remains that people even do the same task in different ways that different apps will do better than others [08:41] take vim vs. emacs for instance [08:42] they are both extremely good editors [08:42] they pretty much do the same tasks [08:42] but because people edit in different ways, each will have its users [08:43] so in order to not alienate people it seems that you should have both fairly easily available === mdke points at #ubuntu-offtopic [08:43] mdke: sorry [08:43] althogh I kinda think this is relevent [08:43] no apology necessary [08:44] I'm just trying to figure out how users work and how linux relates to them [08:44] and hopefully right documentation that helps them [08:44] s/right/write/ [08:45] Burgwork has brought up some interesting ideas for me to think about [08:45] maybe I will just think to myself for a while ;-) [08:46] hey guys, speaking of writting, this is far from done, but can anyone think of any other good points to make here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2 === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:06] hmm, KDE does seem to have improved, although they still stick Science apps in Edutainment :( [09:08] mgalvin, blimey, cool [09:08] hey mdke: glad you like it so far :) [09:09] nice to see you writing again :D [09:09] mgalvin: is Firefox 1.5 final? [09:09] its rc3 [09:10] yea, i'll try and contrib some more again where i can [09:10] the version in dapper is not the final yet [09:10] 1.5 finial will most likely be post flight 2 [09:11] yes === mpt [n=mpt@201-27-7-12.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:23] mdke: do you think it woould be best host the flight 2 overview on (d|h).u.c === mgalvin worries about possible ./ effect [09:28] when does flight 2 come out? [09:29] the universal... "Soon" is what I was told :) [09:30] they wanted to release it last week, so any day now i would imagine === jeffsch [n=jeff@fatwire-202-1.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:38] riddell mentioned that now that kubuntu-desktop is building kubuntu flight 2 should be out "soon" as well [09:46] cool === LaserJock [n=mantha@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:10] mgalvin, certainly not if it will be slashdotted ;) [10:11] :) [10:11] mgalvin, ubuntu.com might work better, that is where usual release notes are found, along with the wiki [10:11] i think just wiki might be the way forward actually [10:12] ok, is there someplace I could store the images (other than my server)? [10:12] mgalvin, upload them to the wiki [10:12] ok, i will just do that then [10:12] More Actions -> Attachments [10:12] thnx [10:23] mgalvin, doc.ubuntu.com might be a place we can consider for this sort of thing [10:25] ok, well, i guess we can make a finial decision on where it will live once it is all done [10:27] we should build a common framework so all the needs to be changed is the words and the screenshots [10:28] Burgwork, well the stable releases aren't even there... [10:28] and if it get's slashdotted that server will go down [10:28] it already struggles with the bandwidth on help.u [10:29] wtf do I always put an apostrophe in "get's" [10:29] ugghn [10:31] for some reason I am using a lot more ,s and 's since using irc [10:33] Burgwork: sure, I can look at making it generic after I finish it [10:33] mgalvin, look at the quicktour stuff [10:33] mdke, hmm, that is a problem [10:33] hey how to I properly get one attached image to link to another attached image [10:33] Burgwork, yes [10:34] mgalvin, HelpOnAttachments [10:34] or something [10:34] hang on [10:34] HelpOnActions/AttachFile [10:38] Burgwork, we'll work on getting help.u on a canonical server soonish [10:50] i must be retarted, i can't seem to get one attachment to display AND act as a link to another attachment, is there an example of this somewhere (all the help pages don't mention it) [10:51] mgalvin, i don't know if its possible actually [10:51] i can get them to display on their own just fine, but not get one to act as a link to another [10:51] hmm [10:51] i seem to remember trying once and not succeeding [10:51] there are macros that you can use, but I don't know if they are installed on our server [10:52] moin needs some serious love to handle attachments better [10:52] seems like i need to add that to the moin wish list === Burgwork sighs and points to another wiki engine.... [10:52] mgalvin, as I say, there are Macros, just not on our wiki :( [10:53] :(, oh well [10:53] hmm, i want to try something [10:53] maybe instead of "Click the thumbnail for the full size screenshot" have "Click here for the full size screenshot" [10:53] you tried [attachment:Targetfile.png attachment:Displayfile.png] ? [10:54] oh hi jeffsch! [10:54] howdy [10:54] how are you? [10:54] pretty good. exams are over. [10:54] and you? [10:54] very well thanks [10:55] hope the exams went well [10:55] mdke: i tried that, no go [10:55] hey jeff [10:55] hi matt [10:56] jeffsch: I might just have to go with that, seems there is no other way :( [10:56] other than hosting the images somewhere other than "in" the wiki, like i am not [10:56] oh well. it's not fancy, but it works [10:56] s/not/now/ [10:57] maybe we could just store just the images on d.u.c for now, not idea, but also not on my server ;) [10:57] s/idea/ideal/ [10:57] hmm [10:58] i don't mind [10:58] but jeffsch's idea looks relatively sane [10:58] it would distribute the load a bit more too [10:58] yes it does [10:58] you'd have the word [here] linking to an attachment, obviously [10:58] yup [10:58] i'll set it up that way for now and see how it looks [10:59] ok [10:59] mdke: that's how my doctors describe me: "relatively sane" :) [10:59]