[03:52] <mgalvin> hi all!
[03:54] <mgalvin> hey just a heads up, i started writing up a review of flight 2 in case anyone is interested
[03:54] <mgalvin> i will probably put it on the wiki soon
[03:54] <mgalvin> i'll post a link when its set, please feel free to add to it if you like
[03:55] <mgalvin> unless..., did anyone already start one?
[03:56] <jsgotangco> flight 2 is out?
[03:56] <mgalvin> no but i am starting to prep the review, it will be very "Soon"
[03:56] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[03:56] <mgalvin> nothing huge, just an overview and some screenshots and such
[03:57] <mgalvin> thought it would be nice to have an overview of improvement and such to go along with the release
[03:58] <jsgotangco> like we really have a cool usplash...
[03:59] <mgalvin> yup! i already have a screenshot of it :)
[05:00] <mgalvin> good night all
[05:00] <mgalvin> here is the flight 2 overview i started in case anyone wants to add anything
[05:00] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
[05:01] <mgalvin> either way, i will finish more of it in the am
[05:01] <mgalvin> later
[05:02] <LaserJock> cya
[05:59] <LaserJock> hi bhuvan 
[06:33] <bhuvan> LaserJock, hello
[06:35] <LaserJock> bhuvan: you just became a Ubuntu member not long ago, right?
[06:37] <bhuvan> yes
[06:37] <LaserJock> how long did it take to get svn commit access?
[06:37] <bhuvan> almost 15 days
[06:38] <LaserJock> did you have to do anything? except wait ;-)
[06:38] <bhuvan> in my case, i guess, i happen to become ubuntu member to get svn commit access
[06:39] <LaserJock> me too, at last CC meeting
[06:39] <bhuvan> jsgotangco & mdke had issues getting svn access fo non-member. i become member, thus they were able to get it done with ease
[06:39] <bhuvan> you, yeah i know, i remember recommending you that day :)
[06:40] <bhuvan> i hope you forgot that fact :) :)
[06:41] <jsgotangco> its much easier to approve commit access to a member
[06:41] <jsgotangco> because elmo itself manages the keys and the servers
[06:41] <LaserJock> I don't remeber a lot of the CC meeting. Things were moving fast and it was 6:00 am for me 
[06:42] <bhuvan> LaserJock, ok
[06:42] <LaserJock> itself? hmm, I always new he was a bot ;-)
[06:42] <LaserJock> I just wondered if I needed to email him or something
[06:43] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, hahaha..sorry that was a slipup
[06:43] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: but a funny one
[06:44] <jsgotangco> when i first started in ubuntu last year, everyone was saying elmo please sync, elmo please do that...
[06:44] <jsgotangco> in my mind i thought elmo was a chat triggered bot that synced
[06:44] <jsgotangco> hehe
[06:44] <LaserJock> yeah, makes sense
[06:54] <Madpilot> hi all
[06:55] <LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
[06:59] <Madpilot> hmm... just realized that BitTorrent isn't mentioned at all in the Peer-to-Peer section of the Desktop Guide - despite the fact that it's the only p2p service included in Ubuntu by default - I'll have to get something written for that...
[06:59] <LaserJock> lol
[07:02] <Madpilot> tonight I'm full of good food and too much beer (staff Christmas party) :)
[07:02] <LaserJock> I'm trying to finish the last homework of my college career
[07:03] <Madpilot> getting that done will feel good, I bet
[07:03] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[07:03] <jsgotangco> make should work
[07:03] <jsgotangco> but it doesn
[07:03] <jsgotangco> t
[07:03] <LaserJock> I guess, after 8 years it will be nice to not have homework
[07:05] <LaserJock> Friday will be my last final too, that will be even better :-)
[07:33] <jsgotangco> gahhh stupid me i forgot to install make
[07:33] <LaserJock> lol, that will do it
[07:33] <rob1> LaserJock, you were looking for me?
[07:34] <LaserJock> rob1: hmm, was I. I can't remember anymore
[07:34] <jsgotangco> hey rob1 where in au are you at?
[07:34] <rob1> 0404| LaserJock rob1: still around?
[07:34] <rob1> Townsville
[07:34] <LaserJock> maybe it was about yelp on dapper
[07:34] <rob1> about 1000km north
[07:35] <LaserJock> a bit of a drive ;-)
[07:35] <jsgotangco> ugghhh
[07:35] <rob1> only an hour and a half by plane
[07:35] <rob1> if that
[07:36] <Madpilot> speaking of Yelp - is it going to acquire a search function anytime soon?
[07:36] <jsgotangco> if the patches submitted are applied
[07:37] <LaserJock> rob1: anyway, I think you can disregard my ping. My yelp crashes for some reason, but it seems to just be my box
[07:37] <rob1> yelp is pretty dodgy
[07:38] <rob1> my dapper upgrade on my laptop went pretty good, a few bugs but a lot more stable then breezy was
[07:38] <LaserJock> well, I have dapper chroot and it works in that so I'm not too bothered by it
[07:39] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, its a known issue
[07:39] <LaserJock> it's just that it is the only program I know of that renders docboook
[07:40] <rob1> jsgotangco, the fact that its dodgy, or the search function?
[07:40] <rob1> heh
[07:40] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:41] <LaserJock> I still don't get why it renders xml so much slower than html
[07:41] <jsgotangco> conglomerate is getting much better though
[07:41] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, because it does some voodoo css on its own
[07:41] <rob1> hmm sf.net has had a face lift
[07:41] <jsgotangco> for some reason, even that is slow
[07:42] <LaserJock> yeah, I tried conglomerate  out the other day. Kinda confusing to me. Right now it is easier for me to just turn it into html
[07:42] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:43] <rob1> it has such an ugly name
[07:43] <jsgotangco> for some people i work with, they seem to like conglomerate
[07:43] <jsgotangco> it still doesn't render correctly, but its a minor issue
[07:44] <LaserJock> I probably just need to try it more.
[07:45] <LaserJock> so there really isn't an alternative to yelp? or am I just missing something
[07:45] <jsgotangco> yelp is the gnome help viewer - jdub
[07:45] <jsgotangco> :D
[07:46] <LaserJock> but if I just want to render some .xml files quickly?
[07:46] <rob1> yet, that same line of reasoning didn't stop them creating gai when synaptic does the job much better
[07:47] <rob1> but hey, who am I to disagree with a developer?
[07:47] <jsgotangco> rob1, synaptic is a different animal that has a different use for Ubuntu while gai is a complete turnaround to synpatic's supposed complexity
[07:48] <rob1> but yet, its limited, redundant and therefor useless
[07:48] <jsgotangco> that's your personal opinion as a user and does not reflect the opinion of the general users
[07:49] <Madpilot> rob1: but it's (slightly) less scary than Synaptic, for some people...
[07:49] <jsgotangco> as documentation/technical writers, we don't have the liberty of expressing personal opinion
[07:49] <rob1> not my decision really
[07:49] <rob1> yep
[07:49] <jsgotangco> (in writing btw)
[07:50] <Madpilot> the only time I use GAI is to check what's included there or not...
[07:51] <jsgotangco> actually i use gai
[07:51] <jsgotangco> i like the bling it provides
[07:51] <rob1> I use aptitude in a shell
[07:51] <LaserJock> I think it is kinda cool, but I think that it would have been better to have  basic/advanced modes of synaptic or something like that
[07:52] <Madpilot> LaserJock: you can actually launch Synaptic from GAI for advanced installs
[07:52] <LaserJock> Madpilot: right, I would like it reversed, in Synaptica have an easy button 
[07:52] <rob1> no gui crap to get in the way, but if I was to use the graphical tools I'd use synaptic over gai for sure
[07:52] <jsgotangco> we eat our own dog food
[07:52] <LaserJock> having all these install tools does make it a bit more difficult to write about
[07:53] <Burgundavia> rob1, no, I don't have ops on #ubuntu
[07:53] <rob1> Burgundavia, yeah never mind, I got hold of crimsun
[07:54] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: wasn't that question asked about 24 hours ago?:P
[07:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, something like that
[07:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, I don't turn my computer off if I am at C's
[07:54] <LaserJock> I had a lengthy conversation with -motu about what to use in the Packaging Guide, we ended up deciding not to say anything ;-)
[07:54] <rob1> we just had users from toronto complaining to us about it
[07:56] <rob1> a dodgy ban that was set
[07:56] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, rightfully so, people who are reading a packaging guide should already know what to use really
[07:57] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: that's what we decided. But there are some interesting things that come up between using aptitude and apt-get
[07:57] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: aptitude installs Recommends by default whereas apt-get doesn't
[07:57] <jsgotangco> yeah and aptitude/apt discussion is a totally different beast heh
[07:58] <rob1> see http://os.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=42537&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&tid=2&tid=130&pid=0
[07:59] <rob1> theres 9 reasons on there why you should be using aptitude over apt-get
[08:00] <rob1> actually, this ones better:   http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/Debian/2004-04/3181.html
[08:00] <jsgotangco> yes
[08:00] <jsgotangco> its often advised to use aptitude in a dist-upgrade scenario
[08:01] <LaserJock> yeah, but for me the UI was confusing enough that it took me a long time to want to use it
[08:02] <LaserJock> the Recommends by default thing is slightly concerning. You can issue the same command in apt-get and aptitude and get different results
[08:02] <rob1> sure, but you can turn it off
[08:02] <LaserJock> yeah, but you have to tell all the newbs that :-)
[08:03] <rob1> and I typically want the recommended packages anyway :)
[08:03] <LaserJock> me too
[08:04] <rob1> jsgotangco, are you going to Sydney when you come over here?
[08:04] <jsgotangco> rob1, i might drop by, i want to go to sydney again and feel the heat
[08:04] <rob1> heh heat
[08:04] <rob1> there has been three nights of riots there
[08:05] <jsgotangco> wah?
[08:05] <rob1> huge groups of lebs and white surfer types kicking each others butts
[08:05] <rob1> and anyone who is unlucky enough to be outside when they pass
[08:06] <rob1> and the police are mostly useless
[08:06] <jsgotangco> well i could agree with the police being useless
[08:07] <rob1> pretty bad stuff, out police can't use non leathal weapons apart from mase and battons
[08:07] <rob1> so umm, if you go there don't leave the airport :)
[08:08] <rob1> there are streets worth of cars getting smashed up, businesses etc
[08:08] <jsgotangco> arggh
[08:08] <jsgotangco> just like paris
[08:08] <rob1> yeah
[08:09] <rob1> they are tipping more riots tonight too
[08:12] <rob1> I saw a well put together mock up of a GTA case, GTA:BB (Bondi Beach)
[08:12] <jsgotangco> haha
[08:12] <jsgotangco> i guess it sucks to go to bondi this time of the year
[08:13] <rob1> ah well the weather is pretty good.. the locals are not.
[07:56] <mdke> evening
[07:57] <Burgwork> salut
[07:57] <Burgwork> have you seen the linus-flame yet?
[07:57] <mdke> not yet, been too busy
[07:58] <LaserJock> the Gnome one?
[07:58] <Burgwork> yep
[07:58] <LaserJock> reading right now
[07:58] <LaserJock> quite interesting
[07:58] <Burgwork> Linus was a fool
[07:59] <mdke> he's an odd chap, certainly
[07:59] <Burgwork> I am not a fan of KDE personally but I can disconnect that from supporting KDE
[07:59] <LaserJock> He sure made his point "Any Gnome people who argue that it's about "usability" have their heads up 
[08:00] <LaserJock> their asses so far that it's not funny."
[08:00] <Burgwork> with BIG BOLD CAPS
[08:00] <Burgwork> JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED THAT GNOME USERS ARE IDIOTS
[08:00] <LaserJock> although, I agree with a lot of what he is getting at
[08:00] <LaserJock> He seemed pretty rude about it
[08:00] <Burgwork> usability is a very nebulous concept
[08:01] <LaserJock> yes
[08:01] <Burgwork> looks great from 30k feet but needs more concrete action and usecases from the ground
[08:01] <Burgwork> that is what is missing on the usability mailing list most of the time
[08:02] <Burgwork> Jeff Waugh "None of this discussion has impacted the healthy working relationship
[08:02] <Burgwork>   that the desktop developers have built, despite the dim white noise of
[08:02] <Burgwork>   users beating each other to a pulp in the background."
[08:02] <LaserJock> but I agree that you can have options for advanced user while keeping things simple
[08:02] <LaserJock> that has been the biggest problem I have had with Gnome
[08:03] <Burgwork> from watching my work mates use Fedora core at work (all are windows users at home), I would say that fixing bugs is more important
[08:03] <Burgwork> they don't much care about options
[08:04] <Burgwork> in fact, only 2 of the 6 of us have customized our desktops
[08:04] <Burgwork> one moved the top bar to the bottom and removed the bottom bar and I added more workspaces and the task monitor
[08:04] <Burgwork> IE: good defaults and thus good policy matter
[08:05] <jjesse> i was trying to show my boss kubuntu and things crashed, three or four times and was like "sometimes that happens"
[08:05] <LaserJock> I would think that they would though, if they could. I found customizing Gnome to be a big pain in the butt. It was a lot easier in KDE
[08:05] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I seriously doubt it
[08:05] <Burgwork> LaserJock, moving a panel or adding things to it is pretty easy and yet they don't do it
[08:06] <LaserJock> hmm, to be honest, that seems silly
[08:06] <Burgwork> most power users fail to realize that most non-power users don't change defaults
[08:06] <Burgwork> it took me a long time to accept that to
[08:06] <Burgwork> s/to/too
[08:06] <LaserJock> I do the same thing, but that is because I can't get Gnome to do anything the way I want it too?
[08:07] <Burgwork> but you try and fail
[08:07] <jjesse> i think Burgwork was right when he said fixing bugs should be more important then making thing s look prettier
[08:07] <Burgwork> they don't even try because they don't care
[08:07] <LaserJock> I just find it is harder to work in Gnome, but then I am somewhat more used to KDE
[08:07] <jjesse> i wish the smae thing was true for MS as well, make things work better then wasting time on making things look prettier
[08:08] <LaserJock> jjesse: well, sometimes it's not just prettier, it is usability
[08:08] <LaserJock> although most of the time it is just eye candy :-)
[08:10] <LaserJock> I do wish KDE worked better in Ubuntu
[08:11] <LaserJock> anyway, I am slowly conforming to the Gnome way of life
[08:11] <Burgwork> LaserJock, bug riddel is something doesn't work
[08:11] <Burgwork> LaserJock, he and Mark are keen to make Kubuntu the best KDE desktop on the planet
[08:12] <LaserJock> yeah, I was thinking of installing KDE today. Getting kinda bored with just plain old dapper
[08:12] <LaserJock> I really like Gnome though too
[08:13] <LaserJock> I just wish they could have something like "Advanced" tabs or something
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil
[08:13] <LaserJock> really? How so?
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, if you can create a good usecase for something that bugs you, the gnome people are happy to accept that
[08:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, advanced tabs are evil because they mess with peoples minds
[08:14] <Burgwork> people don't click them because they don't think they are advanced enough or do because they think they are
[08:14] <Burgwork> either way, it is not task driven
[08:14] <Burgwork> tabs labelled for what is actually on them is better
[08:14] <LaserJock> hmm, I just seems like you can have lots of options, but in a user friendly way
[08:16] <LaserJock> I didn't think KDE's setup was bad at all
[08:16] <Burgwork> questions need answer
[08:16] <Burgwork> s
[08:16] <jjesse> apt-get install kubuntu-desktop 
[08:16] <jjesse> how can it get easier ?
[08:16] <LaserJock> jjesse: doing it as we speak
[08:16] <Burgwork> ergo, if you ask a user a question, you need to make certain they have the information to be able to make an informed choice on that answer
[08:17] <Burgwork> hence why Ubuntu has nothing in the install about KDE vs Gnome
[08:17] <Burgwork> we simply cannot provide enough information in the installer for the user to make an informed  choice
[08:17] <jjesse> but it shouldn't it would just complicate things
[08:17] <Burgwork> but we can ask them what  their name is
[08:18] <LaserJock> I like the Gnome look and feel, but the KDE configurability 
[08:18] <Burgwork> LaserJock, sometimes options are simply left off not through deliberate design choice, but merely not having enough time to figure out how to do it well
[08:19] <LaserJock> yeah, it can't be easy
[08:19] <LaserJock> anway, I think my biggest problems are with Metacity rather the Gnome itself 
[08:20] <LaserJock> although the gnome-menu is kinda a problem to me
[08:21] <LaserJock> it keeps getting smaller and smaller. I just can't see how it is more usable to not be able to find applications
[08:22] <Burgwork> the end goal is not WIMP but task and document driven
[08:22] <Burgwork> there are going to be bumps along that road
[08:22] <LaserJock> WIMP?
[08:23] <Burgwork> window, icon, menu, pointing device
[08:23] <Burgwork> the current Windows, KDE and Gnome way to doing things
[08:23] <Burgwork> OS X is sort of a hybrid with its roots in WIMP
[08:25] <LaserJock> how does that work with having more than one app that can do a task?
[08:26] <Burgwork> you should never  have more than one app that can do a task
[08:27] <LaserJock> that seems really weird, to be honest
[08:27] <LaserJock> who decides what app does what
[08:28] <Burgwork> the distro vendor
[08:28] <Burgwork> and you, if you change it
[08:28] <LaserJock> I have many apps that do the same thing, except some are better at some things than others
[08:28] <Burgwork> but again, most users will never change the default
[08:28] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you and I are not common computer users
[08:28] <LaserJock> I don't think that matters
[08:29] <LaserJock> My brother, a total computer newb, just went to buy photoediting software
[08:29] <LaserJock> he had many choices
[08:29] <Burgwork> how did make his decision?
[08:30] <LaserJock> he looked at a bunch of options
[08:30] <LaserJock> read the descriptions
[08:30] <Burgwork> a decision that he really actually didn't want to amek
[08:30] <LaserJock> sure he did
[08:30] <LaserJock> how would he know what he was getting otherwise
[08:30] <Burgwork> nope, he wanted photoediting software
[08:31] <LaserJock> no, he had specific tasks he wanted to be able to do
[08:31] <Burgwork> if his "distro", in this case windows, already came with what he needed, he would not have  needed to make that decision
[08:31] <LaserJock> some photoediting software did his tasks better than others
[08:31] <LaserJock> it did, but it didn't do the tasks he wanted as well as he wanted
[08:32] <Burgwork> users only buy software because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to
[08:32] <LaserJock> but how is he supposed to make an informed decision if he doesn't even know what he has
[08:32] <jjesse> i disagree, i buy software (games) that i want
[08:32] <LaserJock> in a perfect world with perfect software sure
[08:32] <Burgwork> jjesse, that is slightly different
[08:33] <Burgwork> regardless, if his distro had shipped good photoediting software, such as the GIMP and Fspot, he would not  have needed to make any decision
[08:33] <jjesse> i bought photo elements from adobe because i wanted some photo editing software without shelling out the big books for photo shop
[08:34] <LaserJock> jjesse: my brother almost got photo elements but there was another program that did what he wanted better
[08:34] <jjesse> so he bought the one he wanted to
[08:34] <Burgwork> he bought the one that he though could do the job that he needed to do
[08:34] <LaserJock> The thing is, I just don't see how a distro can "pick" software for the user and then make it difficult for them to get anything else
[08:34] <jjesse> Burgwork: what if fspot or gimp didn't do what he wanted or didn't come with easy to read documentation/tutorials to teach him
[08:34] <Burgwork> LaserJock, that is a straw man attack
[08:35] <Burgwork> I never said I wanted to make it difficult to get other software
[08:35] <Burgwork> I just said that you need to ship good default software
[08:35] <LaserJock> that is what I was talking about though
[08:35] <LaserJock> the menus make it difficult to get new software
[08:35] <Burgwork> if you do the latter, the former becomes less necessary
[08:35] <LaserJock> because you don't know what you have or what it is called if it is all about the tasks and not about the apps
[08:35] <Burgwork> umm "Add Applications?"
[08:36] <Burgwork> LaserJock, most people think "I need to edit a photo", not "I need to use the GIMP"
[08:36] <jjesse> Burgwork: but why does what a distro define as good software then become what fits my needs
[08:36] <Burgwork> jjesse, because the distro can employ smart people to figure how people work
[08:36] <Burgwork> and what they need
[08:36] <LaserJock> but that seems to stiffle OSS
[08:36] <Burgwork> to be honest, users are great at telling you waht they want. They are very bad at telling you how to get what they want
[08:37] <LaserJock> that is the way MS took
[08:37] <Burgwork> LaserJock, actually, no
[08:37] <Burgwork> thhat is approach apple took
[08:37] <LaserJock> either way, I don't see how it does any good to OSS and the linux community
[08:37] <Burgwork> MS took the "cram everything into everything to try and satisfy everybody"
[08:38] <LaserJock> that is what you will have to do
[08:38] <LaserJock> I just don't see how you can put people in general in that tight of a box
[08:39] <LaserJock> certain segments, certainly (gamers, graphics design, programmers, etc.)
[08:39] <LaserJock> but the population at large, I just can't see it
[08:40] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm not totally against what you are saying Burgwork, I just can't see how it would work better than what we have now
[08:41] <LaserJock> If we had lots of time to study users and we had perfect apps, your right, no one would need to install 5 apps to do the same task.
[08:41] <LaserJock> but the fact remains that people even do the same task in different ways that different apps will do better than others
[08:41] <LaserJock> take vim vs. emacs for instance
[08:42] <LaserJock> they are both extremely good editors
[08:42] <LaserJock> they pretty much do the same tasks
[08:42] <LaserJock> but because people edit in different ways, each will have its users
[08:43] <LaserJock> so in order to not alienate people it seems that you should have both fairly easily available
[08:43] <LaserJock> mdke: sorry
[08:43] <LaserJock> althogh I kinda think this is relevent
[08:43] <mdke> no apology necessary
[08:44] <LaserJock> I'm just trying to figure out how users work and how linux relates to them
[08:44] <LaserJock> and hopefully right documentation that helps them
[08:44] <LaserJock> s/right/write/
[08:45] <LaserJock> Burgwork has brought up some interesting ideas for me to think about
[08:45] <LaserJock> maybe I will just think to myself for a while ;-)
[08:46] <mgalvin> hey guys, speaking of writting, this is far from done, but can anyone think of any other good points to make here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2
[09:06] <LaserJock> hmm, KDE does seem to have improved, although they still stick Science apps in Edutainment :(
[09:08] <mdke> mgalvin, blimey, cool
[09:08] <mgalvin> hey mdke: glad you like it so far :)
[09:09] <mdke> nice to see you writing again :D
[09:09] <LaserJock> mgalvin: is Firefox 1.5 final?
[09:09] <mdke> its rc3
[09:10] <mgalvin> yea, i'll try and contrib some more again where i can
[09:10] <mgalvin> the version in dapper is not the final yet
[09:10] <mgalvin> 1.5 finial will most likely be post flight 2
[09:11] <mdke> yes
[09:23] <mgalvin> mdke: do you think it woould be best host the flight 2 overview on (d|h).u.c
[09:28] <jjesse> when does flight 2 come out?
[09:29] <mgalvin> the universal... "Soon" is what I was told :)
[09:30] <mgalvin> they wanted to release it last week, so any day now i would imagine
[09:38] <jjesse> riddell mentioned that now that kubuntu-desktop is building kubuntu flight 2 should be out "soon" as well
[09:46] <mgalvin> cool
[10:10] <mdke> mgalvin, certainly not if it will be slashdotted ;)
[10:11] <mgalvin> :)
[10:11] <mdke> mgalvin, ubuntu.com might work better, that is where usual release notes are found, along with the wiki
[10:11] <mdke> i think just wiki might be the way forward actually
[10:12] <mgalvin> ok, is there someplace I could store the images (other than my server)?
[10:12] <mdke> mgalvin, upload them to the wiki
[10:12] <mgalvin> ok, i will just do that then
[10:12] <mdke> More Actions -> Attachments
[10:12] <mgalvin> thnx
[10:23] <Burgwork> mgalvin, doc.ubuntu.com might be a place we can consider for this sort of thing
[10:25] <mgalvin> ok, well, i guess we can make a finial decision on where it will live once it is all done
[10:27] <Burgwork> we should build a common framework so all the needs to be changed is the words and the screenshots
[10:28] <mdke> Burgwork, well the stable releases aren't even there...
[10:28] <mdke> and if it get's slashdotted that server will go down
[10:28] <mdke> it already struggles with the bandwidth on help.u
[10:29] <mdke> wtf do I always put an apostrophe in "get's"
[10:29] <mdke> ugghn
[10:31] <LaserJock> for some reason I am using a lot more ,s and 's since using irc
[10:33] <mgalvin> Burgwork: sure, I can look at making it generic after I finish it
[10:33] <Burgwork> mgalvin, look at the quicktour stuff
[10:33] <Burgwork> mdke, hmm, that is a problem
[10:33] <mgalvin> hey how to I properly get one attached image to link to another attached image
[10:33] <mdke> Burgwork, yes
[10:34] <mdke> mgalvin, HelpOnAttachments
[10:34] <mdke> or something
[10:34] <mdke> hang on
[10:34] <mdke> HelpOnActions/AttachFile
[10:38] <mdke> Burgwork, we'll work on getting help.u on a canonical server soonish
[10:50] <mgalvin> i must be retarted, i can't seem to get one attachment to display AND act as a link to another attachment, is there an example of this somewhere (all the help pages don't mention it)
[10:51] <mdke> mgalvin, i don't know if its possible actually
[10:51] <mgalvin> i can get them to display on their own just fine, but not get one to act as a link to another
[10:51] <mgalvin> hmm
[10:51] <mdke> i seem to remember trying once and not succeeding
[10:51] <mdke> there are macros that you can use, but I don't know if they are installed on our server
[10:52] <Burgwork> moin needs some serious love to handle attachments better
[10:52] <mgalvin> seems like i need to add that to the moin wish list
[10:52] <mdke> mgalvin, as I say, there are Macros, just not on our wiki :(
[10:53] <mgalvin> :(, oh well
[10:53] <mgalvin> hmm, i want to try something
[10:53] <jeffsch> maybe instead of "Click the thumbnail for the full size screenshot" have "Click here for the full size screenshot"
[10:53] <mdke> you tried [attachment:Targetfile.png attachment:Displayfile.png] ?
[10:54] <mdke> oh hi jeffsch!
[10:54] <jeffsch> howdy
[10:54] <mdke> how are you?
[10:54] <jeffsch> pretty good. exams are over.
[10:54] <jeffsch> and you?
[10:54] <mdke> very well thanks
[10:55] <mdke> hope the exams went well
[10:55] <mgalvin> mdke: i tried that, no go
[10:55] <mgalvin> hey jeff
[10:55] <jeffsch> hi matt
[10:56] <mgalvin> jeffsch: I might just have to go with that, seems there is no other way :(
[10:56] <mgalvin> other than hosting the images somewhere other than "in" the wiki, like i am not
[10:56] <jeffsch> oh well. it's not fancy, but it works
[10:56] <mgalvin> s/not/now/
[10:57] <mgalvin> maybe we could just store just the images on d.u.c for now, not idea, but also not on my server ;)
[10:57] <mgalvin> s/idea/ideal/
[10:57] <mdke> hmm
[10:58] <mdke> i don't mind
[10:58] <mdke> but jeffsch's idea looks relatively sane
[10:58] <mgalvin> it would distribute the load a bit more too
[10:58] <mgalvin> yes it does
[10:58] <mdke> you'd have the word [here]  linking to an attachment, obviously
[10:58] <mgalvin> yup
[10:58] <mgalvin> i'll set it up that way for now and see how it looks
[10:59] <mdke> ok
[10:59] <jeffsch> mdke: that's how my doctors describe me: "relatively sane" :)
[10:59] <mdke> jeffsch, only to your face
[10:59] <mdke> :)
[10:59] <jeffsch> :-)
[10:59] <mgalvin> hehe :)
[10:59] <mdke> we should be getting a new ubuntu-docs in breezy soonish
[10:59] <mdke> just waiting on the upload
[11:03] <mgalvin> time to head home
[11:03] <mgalvin> later all
[11:03] <jeffsch> cya
[11:03] <mdke> night