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| rob1 | does anyone know when the next CC meeting will be? | 12:05 |
|---|---|---|
| rob1 | week 51.. | 12:07 |
| Kamion | 20th December, time TBD | 12:07 |
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | ||
| rob1 | ok, thanks Kamion | 12:08 |
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| pitti | hi | 08:52 |
| ogra | ho | 08:53 |
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| Keybuk | ok | 08:59 |
| Keybuk | let's get this show on the road | 08:59 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl is at dinner, so won't be coming | 08:59 |
| Keybuk | and mdz has buggered off on holiday | 08:59 |
| mjg59 | Ok | 09:00 |
| mjg59 | So what have we got lined up for us today? | 09:00 |
| jdong | the crowd ain't as big compared to CC meetings, huh? | 09:00 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: So as in, you don't have quorum anyway? | 09:00 |
| Keybuk | is Jani Monoses here? | 09:00 |
| janimo | here | 09:00 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: we've always considered two a quorum | 09:00 |
| jbailey | Ah, cool. | 09:00 |
| Keybuk | janimo: you've proposed yourself for main upload privileges | 09:01 |
| janimo | yes, for xfce/xubuntu packages | 09:01 |
| janimo | mainly for that | 09:01 |
| Keybuk | would you like to make your case | 09:01 |
| Keybuk | well, I can certainly say you've been doing a lot of work on them | 09:01 |
| Keybuk | have you been doing much work with the existing MOTU team? | 09:02 |
| janimo | I'd like xubuntu to be supported and CDs built for it for dapper | 09:02 |
| janimo | Keybuk, not much MOTU work recently | 09:02 |
| janimo | only xfce related uploads | 09:02 |
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| Keybuk | how would you like to improve xfce's integration with ubuntu? | 09:02 |
| fabbione | Janimo: the point is that once you get main upload privileges, you can theoretically upload everything | 09:02 |
| janimo | it is well integrated already, but a few more things to add | 09:02 |
| fabbione | there is no distinction at the moment | 09:03 |
| janimo | add gdm and make it a CD | 09:03 |
| janimo | fabbione I know | 09:03 |
| janimo | I have uploaded an informationa XubuntuDapperRoadmap spec today with more details | 09:03 |
| mjg59 | janimo: So, what does Xubuntu involve? | 09:03 |
| janimo | ubuntu standard + x +xfce packages | 09:04 |
| janimo | + a few other apps | 09:04 |
| === ogra would welcome xcfe in main as well as someone who cares for it like janimo does, in edubuntu the question for a slim desktop comes up a lot | ||
| janimo | right now we have xubuntu-desktop | 09:04 |
| janimo | the mmain gripe of usres is missing a CD install | 09:04 |
| janimo | that would be alot easier if all packages were in main | 09:04 |
| mjg59 | janimo: Is the aim to be as well-integrated as Ubuntu? | 09:05 |
| janimo | mjg59, rigth | 09:05 |
| mjg59 | That is, should Xubuntu aim to fulfil the same specifications? | 09:05 |
| janimo | easy to use, always free things like that you mean? sure | 09:05 |
| janimo | or technical specs? | 09:05 |
| fabbione | janimo: both | 09:05 |
| mjg59 | janimo: I was thinking more in terms of NetworkMagic, power management, that sort of hting | 09:05 |
| janimo | well then answer is yes for both | 09:05 |
| fabbione | it needs to match the same quality and consistency | 09:06 |
| janimo | yes, I intedn to work on power mgmt | 09:06 |
| Keybuk | how would you plan to get others to help with the packaging work? | 09:06 |
| janimo | and most of the related specs as I cab | 09:06 |
| janimo | Keybuk, it is not much packaging involved, as we use debian packages | 09:06 |
| mjg59 | I certainly think that the aim for anything in the *ubuntu namespace should be to provide roughly the same level of user experience, but it sounds like you're aiming for that | 09:06 |
| janimo | I intend to work with them | 09:06 |
| Keybuk | have you had to make many modifications to the packages yourself so far? | 09:07 |
| mjg59 | janimo: Have you been working with them so far? | 09:07 |
| janimo | mjg59, yes aiming for that but xfce is not the same user experience as gnome/kde even upstream so that transaltes here too | 09:07 |
| janimo | Keybuk, yes a few | 09:07 |
| mjg59 | janimo: Sure, I realise that there are limitations | 09:07 |
| janimo | to packaging and to code in packages | 09:07 |
| Keybuk | so you feel you know your way around Debian/Ubuntu packaging? have you done much else besides XFCE? | 09:08 |
| janimo | Keybuk, some of the changes are not yet in debian, some are not upstream xfce either | 09:08 |
| janimo | but pushing them actively | 09:08 |
| ogra | there are even heavy technical differences between edubuntu/ubuntu (i.e. edubuntu installs a bunch odf server stuff which doesnt comply with the "no open ports" directive) | 09:08 |
| ogra | so i wouldnt see the binding to tight | 09:08 |
| janimo | Keybuk, I have been a MOTU since about before Hoary and worked on some merges back then | 09:08 |
| janimo | but since then it is mostly xfce related changes or new packages | 09:09 |
| janimo | all starting with xubuntu- | 09:09 |
| mjg59 | janimo: Is there a reasonable xfce userbase right now? | 09:09 |
| Keybuk | dholbach, ogra: have you worked with janimo much? | 09:09 |
| janimo | some in universe some only in REVU | 09:09 |
| janimo | mjg59, I don;t know how to estimate that :) | 09:09 |
| ogra | Keybuk, yes, for a while, he's a longstanding member of MOTU | 09:09 |
| mjg59 | janimo: Heh. Well, do you get bugs filed? | 09:09 |
| janimo | I'd say 10%-15% of linux users? | 09:09 |
| janimo | duno honestly | 09:10 |
| janimo | yes | 09:10 |
| janimo | but xfce has a _lot_ less bugs then gnome/kde even upstream, it is a lot simpler | 09:10 |
| mjg59 | Sure | 09:10 |
| Keybuk | anyone else got any questions for janimo ? | 09:10 |
| mjg59 | But it sounds like there are people using the packages, and from what ogra says it sounds like there would be good reason to have them in main | 09:10 |
| janimo | mjg59, yes | 09:10 |
| fabbione | janimo: are you familiar with security? | 09:11 |
| janimo | I get the occasional thank you eamail from time to time , with the request for CD images :) | 09:11 |
| fabbione | if so how much? | 09:11 |
| fabbione | how much can you commit for it? | 09:11 |
| ogra | mjg59, absolutely ... we had a lightweight target for hoary already which wasnt completed, xubuntu might fill that gap | 09:11 |
| janimo | fabbione, not much besides occasional peeks at bugtrack but I am cautios | 09:11 |
| pitti | btw, there has been one XFCE related vulnerability so far, in 2000 | 09:11 |
| janimo | fabbione,commit for security? | 09:11 |
| janimo | pitti, another code base xfce3 | 09:12 |
| janimo | so 0 actually :) | 09:12 |
| pitti | janimo: right, what I wanted to say is, that's damn few | 09:12 |
| fabbione | janimo: if xubuntu enters main, it also means providing -security support. are you ready to commit to it? | 09:12 |
| janimo | shame on them | 09:12 |
| ogra | heh | 09:12 |
| janimo | fabbione, yes both secutiry and updates | 09:12 |
| ogra | according to pitti that might be a boring job :) | 09:12 |
| janimo | indeed :) | 09:13 |
| pitti | janimo: does xfce ship with any suid programs for doing hardware magic? does it handle hardware at all? | 09:13 |
| janimo | no suid programs | 09:13 |
| pitti | janimo: like automounting, networking, etc.? | 09:13 |
| jdong | pitti: I believe it uses g-v-m to handle those things | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | my one comment is that we work very much as a team, and so far you've been mostly working alone on these packages -- so once in main, you'll need to both help others work with your packages and also be ready to sponsor uploads for the MOTU ... are you happy with that? | 09:13 |
| janimo | for automounting we will use ivman now kubuntu does not | 09:13 |
| janimo | jdong, no ivman | 09:13 |
| jdong | ah, ok | 09:13 |
| jdong | been quite a while since I've used XFCE | 09:14 |
| janimo | Keybuk, I am happy | 09:14 |
| ogra | Keybuk, he worked a lot with crimsun | 09:14 |
| ogra | in a two man team | 09:14 |
| ogra | (its not the one man show it seems o be) | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: any further questions? | 09:14 |
| pitti | that's twice as big as our edubuntu and kubuntu teams :) | 09:14 |
| janimo | Keybuk I have been working alone since MOTUs are very busy with merging and their other teams | 09:14 |
| ogra | pitti, yeah | 09:15 |
| janimo | crimsun is swamped with multimedia related work | 09:15 |
| mjg59 | janimo: It would be good to see work stick fairly closely with the Debian packagers, but I think you've said that you plan to work with them already | 09:15 |
| sivang | is this TB meeting? | 09:15 |
| janimo | mjg59, I just got an alioth acount today to get svn commit access | 09:15 |
| pitti | sivang: yes | 09:15 |
| janimo | to help pushing our changes up | 09:15 |
| mjg59 | janimo: Cool | 09:15 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Ok, I think I'm done | 09:16 |
| Riddell | janimo: xfce has a file manager I believe. does it have a web browser, music player, console? (to pick the apps I have open just now) | 09:16 |
| pitti | janimo: that's good, so the Debian maintainers acknowledge you as a co-maintainer then? | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | ok, your vote? | 09:16 |
| janimo | Riddell, I think we'll use thunar as the default fimemanager | 09:16 |
| mjg59 | +1 from me | 09:16 |
| janimo | we'll have firefox, xfmedai, xfce4-teminal | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | +1 from me also | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | Janimo: welcome aboard | 09:16 |
| pitti | congrats janimo | 09:16 |
| janimo | thanks all :) | 09:16 |
| ogra | YAY, welcome janimo | 09:17 |
| janimo | nice to join the team | 09:17 |
| ogra | :) | 09:17 |
| mjg59 | Ok, moving on? How many developer candidates have we got today? | 09:17 |
| janimo | I'll probably help out with other main work if needed | 09:17 |
| Keybuk | Johnny Mast, are you here? | 09:17 |
| ajmitch | janimo: good work :) | 09:17 |
| Keybuk | Brandon Hale, are you here? | 09:17 |
| janimo | pitti, yes they are ok with me working close woth them | 09:17 |
| ogra | Keybuk, tseng is already in ubuntu core | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | you know, I thought he was | 09:18 |
| ogra | (brandon hale) | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | didn't mentally match the name | 09:18 |
| sivang | welcome janimo , to main? :) | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | jdong: I can see you're here | 09:18 |
| jdong | :) | 09:18 |
| janimo | sivang, yes :) | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | ok | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | jdong: you've applied to join the MOTU team | 09:18 |
| sivang | janimo: big congrets :) | 09:18 |
| ogra | is vuntz here ? | 09:18 |
| jdong | Keybuk: correct | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | so, I guess, first off, what have you been working on so far and what would you like to work on? | 09:19 |
| jdong | Well, my work is primarily concentrated in Backports, and Backports does the most work in Universe | 09:19 |
| jdong | as a result, sometimes the Backports team needs to have changes done in Universe and such | 09:19 |
| jdong | currently, the Team has Mez and slomo who are on MOTU | 09:20 |
| mjg59 | jdong: Is that "the most work in Universe" or "does most of its work in Universe"? | 09:20 |
| jdong | and at times that's not enough | 09:20 |
| vuntz | ogra: I'm here, but I'm going away for ~30 minutes right now | 09:20 |
| ogra | vuntz, just because you are on the list | 09:20 |
| jdong | mjg59: a combination of both: Most requested packages are in Universe, and most "issues" we find are also stemming from Universe packages | 09:20 |
| Keybuk | right, but you don't upload the resulting backports to universe? | 09:21 |
| jdong | no, I don't | 09:21 |
| mjg59 | jdong: Your phrasing seemed to suggest that backports did more work in universe than any other group | 09:21 |
| ogra | Keybuk, the process for backports is a bit different ... | 09:21 |
| jdong | mjg59: maybe I'm having a bad day with phrasing things :) | 09:21 |
| mjg59 | jdong: Ok, as long as that's not what you meant, then fine :) | 09:21 |
| ogra | Keybuk, elmo just triggeres them if jdong tested locally ... | 09:22 |
| jdong | and ogra has been nagging for me to join MOTU too :-D | 09:22 |
| jdong | ever since day one | 09:22 |
| Keybuk | ogra: so you'd support jdong's application? | 09:22 |
| mjg59 | jdong: So how would being an MOTU change things for you? | 09:22 |
| ogra | jdong, but i can hardly judge your packaging skills ... | 09:22 |
| ogra | mjg59, if changes have to be made to a package to backport fine, someone has to touch the package ... | 09:23 |
| jdong | mjg59: Well, first off I hope that it would mean less of me bitching at others... and I can do work without relying on others | 09:23 |
| ogra | mjg59, so it would be a requirement to have one of the backporters being able to do that, Mez is rarely here recently, he wanted to take that role | 09:24 |
| jdong | ogra: I'm pretty experienced with packaging, but not with the specific Debian tools used to upload and such | 09:24 |
| mjg59 | jdong: Well, we'd prefer there to be no bitching regardless of the situation... | 09:24 |
| jdong | mjg59: I suppose _nagging_ would be a better word :) | 09:24 |
| mjg59 | Heh. Sure. | 09:24 |
| jdong | mjg59: I'm known as the one who walks in to #ubuntu-motu just to ask for stuff to be done | 09:24 |
| ogra | the thing is that if a package needs minor changes, they have to be done (uploaded) by someone with upload rights .... | 09:25 |
| ajmitch | jdong: who has worked with you on packaging changes that can vouch for those skills? | 09:25 |
| ogra | so that will either put a burden on MOTU or we get and uploader from the bp team | 09:25 |
| jdong | ajmitch: that's the thing -- I haven't really needed to do anything of that magnitude with MOTU before | 09:25 |
| jdong | ajmitch: usually the types of changes Backports needs are very minor | 09:26 |
| jdong | i.e. changing a version on b-d's, etc | 09:26 |
| ogra | and i'd like to see jdong in that role since he merely leads backports ... but you would have to work a bit with the motu to prove your skills i public | 09:26 |
| ogra | s/i/in | 09:26 |
| jdong | ogra: yes, absolutely :) | 09:26 |
| Keybuk | ogra: would you preferred he worked with you before being granted upload rights? | 09:27 |
| jdong | ogra: and I'll try to spend time working on other stuff in MOTU too | 09:27 |
| \sh | g | 09:27 |
| ogra | Keybuk, not particulary with me personally but with the MOTU team so he can get some votes for his knowledge | 09:27 |
| \sh | evening...too late | 09:27 |
| ajmitch | hi \sh | 09:28 |
| Keybuk | ok, I tend to concur; I'd prefer jdong to work a bit more with you guys so you feel confident about his skills first | 09:28 |
| ogra | Keybuk, i simply cant judge his skills ince i never used any backport in ubuntu yet | 09:28 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: what do you think? | 09:28 |
| ogra | jdong, that would be rad :) | 09:28 |
| mjg59 | I'm broadly in favour, but I'd agree with Keybuk - some more time doing general MOTU work would be good | 09:29 |
| \sh | I agree with ogra...I think it's better to have an overview about his skills in common... | 09:29 |
| \sh | for this, he has to come more often to -motu | 09:29 |
| Keybuk | jdong: would you mind working a bit more closely with the MOTU team, and come back at the next TB meeting when they should be able to praise your skills | 09:29 |
| jdong | Keybuk: sure | 09:29 |
| === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| jdong | I'll try to be in #ubuntu-motu more often | 09:30 |
| jdong | and follow what the guys there want me to do :) | 09:30 |
| Keybuk | ok, we'll postpone to then; your work looks great so far to me, but we're very much a team distro, so come to the next TB meeting with praise from the MOTU team for your work so far there | 09:30 |
| jdong | ok, cool | 09:30 |
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| Keybuk | ok ... now is anyone else here waiting for universe upload privileges who hasn't made it to a meeting since they proposed themselves? | 09:31 |
| \sh | jdong: work with us on the rest of the merges...and bug fixes has to be done soon. I think we agree to help you out with the uploads..so we can see your work | 09:31 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: are you fit and rebooted, or do you need a bit more time? | 09:31 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: I'm rebooted. | 09:32 |
| jdong | \sh: absolutely I need much more packaging experience for MOTU :) | 09:32 |
| Keybuk | ok, Mirror Status, the floor is yours | 09:32 |
| jdong | I just want to take the first step today :) | 09:32 |
| ogra | jdong, thats really great, i'm happy you do that :) | 09:32 |
| mjg59 | jbailey: Can you explain what the problem is, and how we should deal with it? | 09:32 |
| ogra | (you know how log i nagged you for it ;) ) | 09:32 |
| === jbailey looks to see which order he put them in. | ||
| jdong | :) | 09:33 |
| jbailey | mjg59: The mirrors occasionally have trouble, running out of space, or failing to update, etc. | 09:33 |
| jbailey | mjg59: Right now the only way to get this information is by pinging James or Karl directly. | 09:33 |
| jdong | more than occasionally | 09:33 |
| ogra | yes, the us mirror seems to be a PITA | 09:33 |
| elmo | jbailey: you realise there's LP specs about this, right? | 09:34 |
| jbailey | That means that getting this information is limited by timezones / availability of two people. | 09:34 |
| jbailey | elmo: Right. But that means that it's 6 months to a year away. | 09:34 |
| elmo | jbailey: says who? | 09:34 |
| jbailey | elmo: I don't remember seeing it on the priority list for dapper. | 09:34 |
| jbailey | The problem is right now when we know there are mirror problems, that information is not exposed in a useful way. | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | so what would you propose instead of the LP spec? | 09:35 |
| elmo | when was the last time US mirror was broken just out of interest? | 09:36 |
| elmo | because AFAIK, it hasn't broken since we started pushing it with a two stage push | 09:36 |
| jbailey | elmo: Mmm. Right before ubz I think? | 09:36 |
| elmo | and that was ? weeks? ago | 09:36 |
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| elmo | jbailey: ... | 09:36 |
| jdong | elmo: I got some md5sum mismatches fairly recently (2 weeks?) | 09:36 |
| jbailey | elmo: This was intended to come up at the last TB meeting, which I couldn't make. | 09:36 |
| Keybuk | tbh, I don't see anything here for the TB to decide | 09:36 |
| Keybuk | there's a LP spec for it, which is the long-term solution | 09:36 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: mdz refered me to the TB | 09:36 |
| Keybuk | and the short-term solution appears to be "ask elmo" | 09:37 |
| jbailey | Right. | 09:37 |
| elmo | jdong: dude, you tried to convince me you had md5sum mismatches for breezy on archive.u.c | 09:37 |
| jbailey | I'm saying that short term solution isn't always useful. | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | which is true for most of our archive management right now | 09:37 |
| jdong | elmo: Maybe my weeks are off :) | 09:37 |
| jbailey | Right now that request is that we ask the archive administrators to keep a status board of some sort on mirror status so that known issues can be looked at right away. | 09:37 |
| jdong | elmo: but the first few weeks of Breezy's release | 09:37 |
| elmo | jbailey: why on earth are you going to the TB in the first instance with this? | 09:38 |
| ogra | which would be pre ubz | 09:38 |
| jbailey | elmo: mdz refered me to the tb. | 09:38 |
| Keybuk | imo, mdz should have referred you to elmo | 09:38 |
| jbailey | Who ultimately makes the decisions about how these issues are handled? | 09:39 |
| elmo | the same person who ultimately makes all decisions? | 09:40 |
| Keybuk | mdz, sabdfl, elmo, etc. | 09:40 |
| jbailey | So it was probably refered here for discussion at a time when all the parties are generally available. | 09:40 |
| elmo | jbailey: in any event my point is that you didn't even try asking the people who currently run the mirrors | 09:40 |
| elmo | which is, umm, nice | 09:40 |
| elmo | really | 09:40 |
| jdong | I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :) | 09:41 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: anything from your corner? | 09:41 |
| jbailey | elmo: My contact for distro things when driven by customers asking me questions is always mdz. | 09:41 |
| elmo | jbailey: don't be obtuse | 09:41 |
| mjg59 | Without knowing why mdz thought it should be brought up here, I'm not sure we can do too much | 09:41 |
| elmo | if a customer asked you about gcc, you'd go to doko, not mdz | 09:41 |
| mjg59 | Can we punt this until mdz is around? | 09:41 |
| jbailey | elmo: Actually, no. I'd email mdz. | 09:41 |
| jbailey | Unless it was somthing I thought could be answered very quickly. | 09:41 |
| Keybuk | yeah, that's my best suggestion right now ... wait until mdz is back, to see whether he had any reason for bring it here | 09:41 |
| elmo | well maybe the TB should look at how you communicate with the distro team then ... | 09:41 |
| Keybuk | until then, jbailey: 1) make sure the LP spec meets your needs | 09:42 |
| Kamion | presumably the idea of stuff going through mdz is so that mdz can manage how much distro team time is taken up by escalated support | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | and 2) buy elmo some flowers, and ask him nicely? | 09:42 |
| jbailey | Kamion: Yes, as well as tracking and stuff. Before he was a bit surprised that I had been asking the distro team for things and that he hadn't been aware of it. | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | ok, so the advisory list thing | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | you're suggesting some kind of process that involves compiling a list of packages in *-updates and what they chance? | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | uh, change? | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | similar to the existing security stuff? | 09:44 |
| jbailey | Right - not necessarily a list, but an explanation or advisory by email as to why updates are coming out. | 09:44 |
| pitti | oh, interesting idea | 09:44 |
| jbailey | The notification applet stuff isn't always sufficient to explain what's going on, or that it's coming. | 09:44 |
| pitti | but isn't apt-listchanges something that should come close? | 09:44 |
| Kamion | Could amber be modified to do -updates? | 09:44 |
| jbailey | So in some ways it can look like a security update that showed up without an advisory. | 09:44 |
| Kamion | (speaking as an occasional -updates approver, I don't want to have to construct those things by hand) | 09:45 |
| jbailey | Kamion: Right. I don't have any suggestions as to the machanics of this. | 09:45 |
| jbailey | Certainly I'd be willing to construct these for the -updates that I do and add them to the mix somehow. | 09:45 |
| Keybuk | from my corner, yes something like this would be nice, propose it on #ubuntu-devel and rally people round to figure out how to do it | 09:45 |
| pitti | well, for updates we maybe don't need md5sums and such; but still some template would be nice for version numbers etc. | 09:46 |
| mjg59 | Right. I think it's reasonable to tell people why we're giving them an update. | 09:46 |
| jbailey | pitti: I'm not sure how a -update is different than a security patch in that sense. | 09:46 |
| Keybuk | so +1 from me, sounds like a nice thing to do | 09:46 |
| pitti | jbailey: well, as long as amber generates these, I don't particularly care | 09:47 |
| jbailey | pitti: In any event we're delivering them a package, so it would be nice to have the usual trappings. md5sum is the easiest part to generate. =) | 09:47 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: ? | 09:47 |
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| mjg59 | +1 | 09:48 |
| Keybuk | ok | 09:48 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: if you could lead discussion and implementation for it, go for it | 09:48 |
| jbailey | No problem, i'll follow that through. | 09:48 |
| pitti | Kamion: how are -updates uploads published? | 09:48 |
| Keybuk | next thing on the agenda is me ... | 09:49 |
| pitti | Kamion: certainly there is a girl for it which could be modified to spit out template emails? | 09:49 |
| Keybuk | this is probably a no-brainer, but I didn't want to go ahead and make such a change without at least checking with some other people first | 09:49 |
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| ogra | Keybuk, breaking the wrold again ? | 09:49 |
| jbailey | Mmmm. Modified girl. | 09:49 |
| jbailey | (sounds ike an ingrediant) | 09:49 |
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| Keybuk | currently there's no useful place during boot to put things like pid files, control sockets, dhcp leases, etc. | 09:49 |
| pitti | /var/run isn't useful? | 09:50 |
| Keybuk | /var/run should be that useful place, but it's either on the root filesystem and not yet r/w or on another filesystem altogether | 09:50 |
| mjg59 | (See NFS-root cases) | 09:50 |
| Keybuk | it's fine once in rc2.d, but in rcS.d it's sub-optimal | 09:50 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: Is this one beast to add to your movemount collection? | 09:50 |
| jbailey | +more | 09:50 |
| Keybuk | so my proposal is to make /var/run a tmpfs that's always available | 09:50 |
| pitti | Keybuk: when would you mount that? | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | which would mean anything writing into a sub-directory of it would need to make that sub-directory if it doesn't already exist | 09:51 |
| Kamion | pitti: no it's just kelly -z | 09:51 |
| Kamion | pitti: which is just the thing that does accepted->installed | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | pitti: probably in the initramfs, and moved to /root/var/run | 09:51 |
| pitti | Keybuk: if you mount it in initramfs, then a later mount of /var in fstab would shadow it, right? and mouting it late would defeat the purpose? | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | then if not already mounted, in the first init script | 09:51 |
| Keybuk | and in the mountall script, if we mount /var as something else, so a move dance to keep it there | 09:52 |
| pitti | heh | 09:52 |
| Keybuk | so that's it really, is this sane or should I go find some other solution? | 09:53 |
| pitti | for the records, we already fixed one or two packages to create /var/run/<package subdir>, but it certainly needs some more fixes to have complete coverage | 09:53 |
| pitti | LSB does allow for packages to rely on the existence of /var/run/directory, so it could give us some hard time with keeping up | 09:53 |
| pitti | (especially for universe) | 09:53 |
| pitti | but I didn't actually count the number of affected packages | 09:53 |
| pitti | the fix is trivial, though | 09:54 |
| Keybuk | *nods* | 09:54 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: So the main downside is that we may need to alter some packages that expect subdirectories to be persistant? | 09:55 |
| \sh | pitti: if this can be done after UVF...no problem with me ,) | 09:55 |
| pitti | \sh: it's a trivial bug fix, sure | 09:55 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: right | 09:55 |
| pitti | \sh: just a mkdir -p and a chmod/chown in the init script | 09:55 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Hm. I worry a bit about it being a semantic change. | 09:55 |
| \sh | pitti: so we need a list of all packages who are bringing in some init.d scripts... | 09:56 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Do we have any idea how many packages it would break, and have you discussed this with Debian at all? | 09:56 |
| pitti | \sh: no, packages which put stuff into /var/run | 09:56 |
| pitti | \sh: and either ship a directory in /var/run, or create it in postinst | 09:56 |
| Keybuk | in main, I've found only one or two that it breaks, and the Debian maintainer of both seemed happy to accept the patch | 09:56 |
| fabbione | there are also packages that have /var/run/ in the code... | 09:56 |
| Keybuk | most of them already have patches to make it work | 09:56 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Ok, sounds good | 09:57 |
| pitti | sounds like 'early breakage' | 09:57 |
| \sh | I need an aspirin, a tea, some drugs, and a list of packages for later.. | 09:57 |
| sivang | \sh: this can add up to the list of remaining merges, or just add this when working on a merge :) | 09:58 |
| sivang | s/add/patch/ | 09:58 |
| Keybuk | ok, any further business? | 09:59 |
| Keybuk | jdong: are you here? | 09:59 |
| \sh | sivang: if you have such a package to merge ... do it now...or after uvf and when all the merges are done | 09:59 |
| ogra | <jdong> I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :) | 10:00 |
| ogra | that was 20min ago | 10:00 |
| Keybuk | yeah, sadly I've got to run in a minute too :-/ | 10:00 |
| Keybuk | the answer to jdong is the same as jbailey, make sure the LP spec is right | 10:00 |
| Keybuk | several already exist, from what I can see | 10:01 |
| ogra | i thought Mez worked on one at ubz | 10:01 |
| Keybuk | ok, end of meeting then | 10:01 |
| Keybuk | the next TB meeting will be in 4 weeks time I guess | 10:01 |
| Keybuk | as two-weeks is the 27th | 10:01 |
| mjg59 | Wow. That was swift. | 10:01 |
| \sh | well...I think there is no need for a new process...because elmo is processing all the request when he has time...and thats pretty often.. | 10:01 |
| Kamion | oh, is there time for me to slot in one question? | 10:02 |
| ogra | yup... and LP is near (somehow) | 10:02 |
| Kamion | forgot to put it on the agenda | 10:02 |
| Keybuk | meh, go on then | 10:02 |
| jdong | were my minutes too long? | 10:02 |
| Kamion | if not, no worries | 10:02 |
| Keybuk | is it quick? | 10:02 |
| Kamion | so Debian is in the middle of killing off base-config | 10:02 |
| Kamion | and moving the entire installation to the first stage | 10:02 |
| Kamion | this would kill off a fair few of my bugs, so I'm inclined to follow suit | 10:02 |
| pitti | that sounds nice actually | 10:02 |
| Kamion | my question is whether this is an utterly insane thing to do for dapper? | 10:03 |
| Keybuk | sounds nice to me, we've already done some of that? | 10:03 |
| Kamion | yes, but not the big long package installation step | 10:03 |
| Keybuk | ultimately I think that's possibly your call ;) | 10:03 |
| jdong | Keybuk: you can drop my item from the agenda, I don't think it'll be necessary as of now | 10:03 |
| Keybuk | you'd judge better than anyone else whether it's doable | 10:03 |
| Kamion | the downside is that it means that it takes longer to find out whether your newly-installed system actually boots | 10:03 |
| jdong | btw elmo thx very much for pushing those backports through today! | 10:03 |
| ogra | and it will slow down the installation, no ? since you do everything from CD ? | 10:04 |
| Kamion | Keybuk: ok, I thought it was a big enough change that I ought to bring it up, but if that's your feeling then fine, I'll judge by how quickly the code matures upstream | 10:04 |
| Kamion | ogra: no, actually it'll speed it up because we can throw away archive-copier | 10:04 |
| ogra | ah, k | 10:04 |
| ogra | yes, thats a 10min step less ... | 10:04 |
| Kamion | there'll be some extra seeking back and forward, but I think it'll be dwarfed | 10:04 |
| === sivang wil be waiting to test those images :) | ||
| Kamion | righto, thanks | 10:05 |
| \sh | ok..going back to sleep away my cold | 10:07 |
| pitti | ok, seems we are done? | 10:07 |
| jdong | \sh: what a coincidence, lol | 10:08 |
| \sh | jdong: well...after 2 years really avoiding a heavy illness...I think it's time to have a much more nicer cold, coming along with fever and body pain | 10:09 |
| jdong | \sh: intestinal flu with me here.... while suffering deep muscle stress... does not go together well | 10:09 |
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| \sh | ok...cu later...when I can't sleep anymore :) | 10:10 |
| jdong | have fun | 10:10 |
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| sivang | \sh: get well! | 10:10 |
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| Ju | Hi all ! | 10:25 |
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| shawarma | what the... was there just a TB meeting? | 10:45 |
| shawarma | "just".. | 10:45 |
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| vuntz | ogra: ping? | 10:54 |
| ogra | vuntz, ? | 10:54 |
| vuntz | I'm not sure of the list you were talking about :-) | 10:55 |
| ogra | ubuntu developers in launchpad | 10:55 |
| vuntz | ah | 10:55 |
| vuntz | I thought I asked to be removed from it | 10:55 |
| ogra | (MOTU) | 10:55 |
| vuntz | can you remove me from the list? | 10:55 |
| ogra | i dont think so | 10:56 |
| ogra | i have no admin rights there.... only th TB has | 10:56 |
| vuntz | okay | 10:56 |
| vuntz | I'll try to not forget to ask someone from the TB, then | 10:57 |
| vuntz | thanks | 10:57 |
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| \sh | vuntz: why do you want to removed we need more people :) | 11:05 |
| vuntz | because I don't have time to join the group :/ | 11:08 |
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| dholbach | vuntz: one day we'll have the post of a king for motu too... :) | 11:14 |
| ogra | dholbach, we dont even have a crown yet .... | 11:15 |
| ogra | still a long way to go | 11:15 |
| dholbach | yeah | 11:16 |
| ajmitch | we have the face of motu, so why not a crown? | 11:16 |
| ogra | ajmitch, make one, we can make it a trophy for the biggest amount of uploads for one release :) | 11:17 |
| ogra | indeed dholbach needs to get it belated first for his 400 hoary uploads ;) | 11:18 |
| ajmitch | ogra: I'd better get working ;) | 11:18 |
| ajmitch | 400 now? | 11:18 |
| ogra | wasnt it 400 back then ? | 11:19 |
| dholbach | oh nononono | 11:19 |
| ajmitch | 200 iirc | 11:19 |
| dholbach | vuntzZz: is the king | 11:19 |
| ajmitch | I didn't even do that for breezy | 11:19 |
| ogra | dholbach, for next release | 11:19 |
| dholbach | he gets the crown | 11:19 |
| ogra | he already has the cool hat | 11:19 |
| ogra | where should he wear the crown ? | 11:20 |
| slomo_ | on top of the hat :) | 11:23 |
| ogra | hehe | 11:23 |
| \sh | oh damn..I'm sick I shouldn't do merges | 11:28 |
| \sh | *coughcough* | 11:28 |
| ajmitch | yeah right | 11:29 |
| ajmitch | we shouldn't take over -meeting too much ;) | 11:29 |
| azeem | I thought this *was* a meeting | 11:34 |
| ajmitch | it used to be | 11:34 |
| azeem | couldn't be bothered to look up which one exactly | 11:34 |
| azeem | ah | 11:34 |
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