=== mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hunger_ [n=hunger@p54A62209.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [n=doko@dslb-084-059-073-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === xfree [n=nayif@84.235.6.126] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c2-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === xfree [n=nayif@84.235.6.126] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["thanks] === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-38-37.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hunger_ [n=hunger@p54A63960.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [n=JaneW@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === No1Viking [i=micke@h-83-140-104-3.ip.cust.port80.se] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === janimo [n=jani@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === janimo [n=jani@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === lbm [n=lbm@cpe.atm4-0-1301006.0x50a0824e.vgnxx6.customer.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [n=JaneW@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hunger_ [n=hunger@p54A601F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sivang [i=sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jane_ [n=JaneW@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B15FC.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach_ [n=daniel@i577B1FBC.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hunger_ [n=hunger@p54A641E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === YukiIkyuta [n=celtic@c211-28-183-78.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === YukiIkyuta [n=celtic@c211-28-183-78.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:05] does anyone know when the next CC meeting will be? [12:07] week 51.. [12:07] 20th December, time TBD === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 14 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council [12:08] ok, thanks Kamion === Simira [n=rpGirl@118.84-48-121.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [n=rpGirl@118.84-48-121.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Nikusan [n=Nikusan@hamax3-015.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B1FBC.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hunger_ [n=hunger@p54A641E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Nikusan [n=Nikusan@hamax11-079.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hunger_ [n=hunger@p54A6028B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === fabbione [n=fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === janimo [n=jani@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@69.106.49.211] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont [n=lamont@mib.fc.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:52] hi [08:53] ho === lucasvo [n=lucasvo@www.wservices.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [n=scott@syndicate.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === elmo [n=james@83-216-156-21.jamest747.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mjg59 [n=mjg59@cavan.codon.org.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:59] ok [08:59] let's get this show on the road [08:59] sabdfl is at dinner, so won't be coming [08:59] and mdz has buggered off on holiday [09:00] Ok [09:00] So what have we got lined up for us today? [09:00] the crowd ain't as big compared to CC meetings, huh? [09:00] Keybuk: So as in, you don't have quorum anyway? [09:00] is Jani Monoses here? [09:00] here [09:00] jbailey: we've always considered two a quorum [09:00] Ah, cool. [09:01] janimo: you've proposed yourself for main upload privileges [09:01] yes, for xfce/xubuntu packages [09:01] mainly for that [09:01] would you like to make your case [09:01] well, I can certainly say you've been doing a lot of work on them [09:02] have you been doing much work with the existing MOTU team? [09:02] I'd like xubuntu to be supported and CDs built for it for dapper [09:02] Keybuk, not much MOTU work recently [09:02] only xfce related uploads === Burgwork [n=corey@S010600131016cf6f.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:02] how would you like to improve xfce's integration with ubuntu? [09:02] Janimo: the point is that once you get main upload privileges, you can theoretically upload everything [09:02] it is well integrated already, but a few more things to add [09:03] there is no distinction at the moment [09:03] add gdm and make it a CD [09:03] fabbione I know [09:03] I have uploaded an informationa XubuntuDapperRoadmap spec today with more details [09:03] janimo: So, what does Xubuntu involve? [09:04] ubuntu standard + x +xfce packages [09:04] + a few other apps === ogra would welcome xcfe in main as well as someone who cares for it like janimo does, in edubuntu the question for a slim desktop comes up a lot [09:04] right now we have xubuntu-desktop [09:04] the mmain gripe of usres is missing a CD install [09:04] that would be alot easier if all packages were in main [09:05] janimo: Is the aim to be as well-integrated as Ubuntu? [09:05] mjg59, rigth [09:05] That is, should Xubuntu aim to fulfil the same specifications? [09:05] easy to use, always free things like that you mean? sure [09:05] or technical specs? [09:05] janimo: both [09:05] janimo: I was thinking more in terms of NetworkMagic, power management, that sort of hting [09:05] well then answer is yes for both [09:06] it needs to match the same quality and consistency [09:06] yes, I intedn to work on power mgmt [09:06] how would you plan to get others to help with the packaging work? [09:06] and most of the related specs as I cab [09:06] Keybuk, it is not much packaging involved, as we use debian packages [09:06] I certainly think that the aim for anything in the *ubuntu namespace should be to provide roughly the same level of user experience, but it sounds like you're aiming for that [09:06] I intend to work with them [09:07] have you had to make many modifications to the packages yourself so far? [09:07] janimo: Have you been working with them so far? [09:07] mjg59, yes aiming for that but xfce is not the same user experience as gnome/kde even upstream so that transaltes here too [09:07] Keybuk, yes a few [09:07] janimo: Sure, I realise that there are limitations [09:07] to packaging and to code in packages [09:08] so you feel you know your way around Debian/Ubuntu packaging? have you done much else besides XFCE? [09:08] Keybuk, some of the changes are not yet in debian, some are not upstream xfce either [09:08] but pushing them actively [09:08] there are even heavy technical differences between edubuntu/ubuntu (i.e. edubuntu installs a bunch odf server stuff which doesnt comply with the "no open ports" directive) [09:08] so i wouldnt see the binding to tight [09:08] Keybuk, I have been a MOTU since about before Hoary and worked on some merges back then [09:09] but since then it is mostly xfce related changes or new packages [09:09] all starting with xubuntu- [09:09] janimo: Is there a reasonable xfce userbase right now? [09:09] dholbach, ogra: have you worked with janimo much? [09:09] some in universe some only in REVU [09:09] mjg59, I don;t know how to estimate that :) [09:09] Keybuk, yes, for a while, he's a longstanding member of MOTU [09:09] janimo: Heh. Well, do you get bugs filed? [09:09] I'd say 10%-15% of linux users? [09:10] duno honestly [09:10] yes [09:10] but xfce has a _lot_ less bugs then gnome/kde even upstream, it is a lot simpler [09:10] Sure [09:10] anyone else got any questions for janimo ? [09:10] But it sounds like there are people using the packages, and from what ogra says it sounds like there would be good reason to have them in main [09:10] mjg59, yes [09:11] janimo: are you familiar with security? [09:11] I get the occasional thank you eamail from time to time , with the request for CD images :) [09:11] if so how much? [09:11] how much can you commit for it? [09:11] mjg59, absolutely ... we had a lightweight target for hoary already which wasnt completed, xubuntu might fill that gap [09:11] fabbione, not much besides occasional peeks at bugtrack but I am cautios [09:11] btw, there has been one XFCE related vulnerability so far, in 2000 [09:11] fabbione,commit for security? [09:12] pitti, another code base xfce3 [09:12] so 0 actually :) [09:12] janimo: right, what I wanted to say is, that's damn few [09:12] janimo: if xubuntu enters main, it also means providing -security support. are you ready to commit to it? [09:12] shame on them [09:12] heh [09:12] fabbione, yes both secutiry and updates [09:12] according to pitti that might be a boring job :) [09:13] indeed :) [09:13] janimo: does xfce ship with any suid programs for doing hardware magic? does it handle hardware at all? [09:13] no suid programs [09:13] janimo: like automounting, networking, etc.? [09:13] pitti: I believe it uses g-v-m to handle those things [09:13] my one comment is that we work very much as a team, and so far you've been mostly working alone on these packages -- so once in main, you'll need to both help others work with your packages and also be ready to sponsor uploads for the MOTU ... are you happy with that? [09:13] for automounting we will use ivman now kubuntu does not [09:13] jdong, no ivman [09:13] ah, ok [09:14] been quite a while since I've used XFCE [09:14] Keybuk, I am happy [09:14] Keybuk, he worked a lot with crimsun [09:14] in a two man team [09:14] (its not the one man show it seems o be) [09:14] mjg59: any further questions? [09:14] that's twice as big as our edubuntu and kubuntu teams :) [09:14] Keybuk I have been working alone since MOTUs are very busy with merging and their other teams [09:15] pitti, yeah [09:15] crimsun is swamped with multimedia related work [09:15] janimo: It would be good to see work stick fairly closely with the Debian packagers, but I think you've said that you plan to work with them already [09:15] is this TB meeting? [09:15] mjg59, I just got an alioth acount today to get svn commit access [09:15] sivang: yes [09:15] to help pushing our changes up [09:15] janimo: Cool [09:16] Keybuk: Ok, I think I'm done [09:16] janimo: xfce has a file manager I believe. does it have a web browser, music player, console? (to pick the apps I have open just now) [09:16] janimo: that's good, so the Debian maintainers acknowledge you as a co-maintainer then? [09:16] ok, your vote? [09:16] Riddell, I think we'll use thunar as the default fimemanager [09:16] +1 from me [09:16] we'll have firefox, xfmedai, xfce4-teminal [09:16] +1 from me also [09:16] Janimo: welcome aboard [09:16] congrats janimo [09:16] thanks all :) [09:17] YAY, welcome janimo [09:17] nice to join the team [09:17] :) [09:17] Ok, moving on? How many developer candidates have we got today? [09:17] I'll probably help out with other main work if needed [09:17] Johnny Mast, are you here? [09:17] janimo: good work :) [09:17] Brandon Hale, are you here? [09:17] pitti, yes they are ok with me working close woth them [09:18] Keybuk, tseng is already in ubuntu core [09:18] you know, I thought he was [09:18] (brandon hale) [09:18] didn't mentally match the name [09:18] welcome janimo , to main? :) [09:18] jdong: I can see you're here [09:18] :) [09:18] sivang, yes :) [09:18] ok [09:18] jdong: you've applied to join the MOTU team [09:18] janimo: big congrets :) [09:18] is vuntz here ? [09:18] Keybuk: correct [09:19] so, I guess, first off, what have you been working on so far and what would you like to work on? [09:19] Well, my work is primarily concentrated in Backports, and Backports does the most work in Universe [09:19] as a result, sometimes the Backports team needs to have changes done in Universe and such [09:20] currently, the Team has Mez and slomo who are on MOTU [09:20] jdong: Is that "the most work in Universe" or "does most of its work in Universe"? [09:20] and at times that's not enough [09:20] ogra: I'm here, but I'm going away for ~30 minutes right now [09:20] vuntz, just because you are on the list [09:20] mjg59: a combination of both: Most requested packages are in Universe, and most "issues" we find are also stemming from Universe packages [09:21] right, but you don't upload the resulting backports to universe? [09:21] no, I don't [09:21] jdong: Your phrasing seemed to suggest that backports did more work in universe than any other group [09:21] Keybuk, the process for backports is a bit different ... [09:21] mjg59: maybe I'm having a bad day with phrasing things :) [09:21] jdong: Ok, as long as that's not what you meant, then fine :) [09:22] Keybuk, elmo just triggeres them if jdong tested locally ... [09:22] and ogra has been nagging for me to join MOTU too :-D [09:22] ever since day one [09:22] ogra: so you'd support jdong's application? [09:22] jdong: So how would being an MOTU change things for you? [09:22] jdong, but i can hardly judge your packaging skills ... [09:23] mjg59, if changes have to be made to a package to backport fine, someone has to touch the package ... [09:23] mjg59: Well, first off I hope that it would mean less of me bitching at others... and I can do work without relying on others [09:24] mjg59, so it would be a requirement to have one of the backporters being able to do that, Mez is rarely here recently, he wanted to take that role [09:24] ogra: I'm pretty experienced with packaging, but not with the specific Debian tools used to upload and such [09:24] jdong: Well, we'd prefer there to be no bitching regardless of the situation... [09:24] mjg59: I suppose _nagging_ would be a better word :) [09:24] Heh. Sure. [09:24] mjg59: I'm known as the one who walks in to #ubuntu-motu just to ask for stuff to be done [09:25] the thing is that if a package needs minor changes, they have to be done (uploaded) by someone with upload rights .... [09:25] jdong: who has worked with you on packaging changes that can vouch for those skills? [09:25] so that will either put a burden on MOTU or we get and uploader from the bp team [09:25] ajmitch: that's the thing -- I haven't really needed to do anything of that magnitude with MOTU before [09:26] ajmitch: usually the types of changes Backports needs are very minor [09:26] i.e. changing a version on b-d's, etc [09:26] and i'd like to see jdong in that role since he merely leads backports ... but you would have to work a bit with the motu to prove your skills i public [09:26] s/i/in [09:26] ogra: yes, absolutely :) [09:27] ogra: would you preferred he worked with you before being granted upload rights? [09:27] ogra: and I'll try to spend time working on other stuff in MOTU too [09:27] <\sh> g [09:27] Keybuk, not particulary with me personally but with the MOTU team so he can get some votes for his knowledge [09:27] <\sh> evening...too late [09:28] hi \sh [09:28] ok, I tend to concur; I'd prefer jdong to work a bit more with you guys so you feel confident about his skills first [09:28] Keybuk, i simply cant judge his skills ince i never used any backport in ubuntu yet [09:28] mjg59: what do you think? [09:28] jdong, that would be rad :) [09:29] I'm broadly in favour, but I'd agree with Keybuk - some more time doing general MOTU work would be good [09:29] <\sh> I agree with ogra...I think it's better to have an overview about his skills in common... [09:29] <\sh> for this, he has to come more often to -motu [09:29] jdong: would you mind working a bit more closely with the MOTU team, and come back at the next TB meeting when they should be able to praise your skills [09:29] Keybuk: sure === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:30] I'll try to be in #ubuntu-motu more often [09:30] and follow what the guys there want me to do :) [09:30] ok, we'll postpone to then; your work looks great so far to me, but we're very much a team distro, so come to the next TB meeting with praise from the MOTU team for your work so far there [09:30] ok, cool === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:31] ok ... now is anyone else here waiting for universe upload privileges who hasn't made it to a meeting since they proposed themselves? [09:31] <\sh> jdong: work with us on the rest of the merges...and bug fixes has to be done soon. I think we agree to help you out with the uploads..so we can see your work [09:31] jbailey: are you fit and rebooted, or do you need a bit more time? [09:32] Keybuk: I'm rebooted. [09:32] \sh: absolutely I need much more packaging experience for MOTU :) [09:32] ok, Mirror Status, the floor is yours [09:32] I just want to take the first step today :) [09:32] jdong, thats really great, i'm happy you do that :) [09:32] jbailey: Can you explain what the problem is, and how we should deal with it? [09:32] (you know how log i nagged you for it ;) ) === jbailey looks to see which order he put them in. [09:33] :) [09:33] mjg59: The mirrors occasionally have trouble, running out of space, or failing to update, etc. [09:33] mjg59: Right now the only way to get this information is by pinging James or Karl directly. [09:33] more than occasionally [09:33] yes, the us mirror seems to be a PITA [09:34] jbailey: you realise there's LP specs about this, right? [09:34] That means that getting this information is limited by timezones / availability of two people. [09:34] elmo: Right. But that means that it's 6 months to a year away. [09:34] jbailey: says who? [09:34] elmo: I don't remember seeing it on the priority list for dapper. [09:35] The problem is right now when we know there are mirror problems, that information is not exposed in a useful way. [09:35] so what would you propose instead of the LP spec? [09:36] when was the last time US mirror was broken just out of interest? [09:36] because AFAIK, it hasn't broken since we started pushing it with a two stage push [09:36] elmo: Mmm. Right before ubz I think? [09:36] and that was ? weeks? ago === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:36] jbailey: ... [09:36] elmo: I got some md5sum mismatches fairly recently (2 weeks?) [09:36] elmo: This was intended to come up at the last TB meeting, which I couldn't make. [09:36] tbh, I don't see anything here for the TB to decide [09:36] there's a LP spec for it, which is the long-term solution [09:36] Keybuk: mdz refered me to the TB [09:37] and the short-term solution appears to be "ask elmo" [09:37] Right. [09:37] jdong: dude, you tried to convince me you had md5sum mismatches for breezy on archive.u.c [09:37] I'm saying that short term solution isn't always useful. [09:37] which is true for most of our archive management right now [09:37] elmo: Maybe my weeks are off :) [09:37] Right now that request is that we ask the archive administrators to keep a status board of some sort on mirror status so that known issues can be looked at right away. [09:37] elmo: but the first few weeks of Breezy's release [09:38] jbailey: why on earth are you going to the TB in the first instance with this? [09:38] which would be pre ubz [09:38] elmo: mdz refered me to the tb. [09:38] imo, mdz should have referred you to elmo [09:39] Who ultimately makes the decisions about how these issues are handled? [09:40] the same person who ultimately makes all decisions? [09:40] mdz, sabdfl, elmo, etc. [09:40] So it was probably refered here for discussion at a time when all the parties are generally available. [09:40] jbailey: in any event my point is that you didn't even try asking the people who currently run the mirrors [09:40] which is, umm, nice [09:40] really [09:41] I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :) [09:41] mjg59: anything from your corner? [09:41] elmo: My contact for distro things when driven by customers asking me questions is always mdz. [09:41] jbailey: don't be obtuse [09:41] Without knowing why mdz thought it should be brought up here, I'm not sure we can do too much [09:41] if a customer asked you about gcc, you'd go to doko, not mdz [09:41] Can we punt this until mdz is around? [09:41] elmo: Actually, no. I'd email mdz. [09:41] Unless it was somthing I thought could be answered very quickly. [09:41] yeah, that's my best suggestion right now ... wait until mdz is back, to see whether he had any reason for bring it here [09:41] well maybe the TB should look at how you communicate with the distro team then ... [09:42] until then, jbailey: 1) make sure the LP spec meets your needs [09:42] presumably the idea of stuff going through mdz is so that mdz can manage how much distro team time is taken up by escalated support [09:42] and 2) buy elmo some flowers, and ask him nicely? [09:42] Kamion: Yes, as well as tracking and stuff. Before he was a bit surprised that I had been asking the distro team for things and that he hadn't been aware of it. [09:43] ok, so the advisory list thing [09:43] you're suggesting some kind of process that involves compiling a list of packages in *-updates and what they chance? [09:43] uh, change? [09:44] similar to the existing security stuff? [09:44] Right - not necessarily a list, but an explanation or advisory by email as to why updates are coming out. [09:44] oh, interesting idea [09:44] The notification applet stuff isn't always sufficient to explain what's going on, or that it's coming. [09:44] but isn't apt-listchanges something that should come close? [09:44] Could amber be modified to do -updates? [09:44] So in some ways it can look like a security update that showed up without an advisory. [09:45] (speaking as an occasional -updates approver, I don't want to have to construct those things by hand) [09:45] Kamion: Right. I don't have any suggestions as to the machanics of this. [09:45] Certainly I'd be willing to construct these for the -updates that I do and add them to the mix somehow. [09:45] from my corner, yes something like this would be nice, propose it on #ubuntu-devel and rally people round to figure out how to do it [09:46] well, for updates we maybe don't need md5sums and such; but still some template would be nice for version numbers etc. [09:46] Right. I think it's reasonable to tell people why we're giving them an update. [09:46] pitti: I'm not sure how a -update is different than a security patch in that sense. [09:46] so +1 from me, sounds like a nice thing to do [09:47] jbailey: well, as long as amber generates these, I don't particularly care [09:47] pitti: In any event we're delivering them a package, so it would be nice to have the usual trappings. md5sum is the easiest part to generate. =) [09:47] mjg59: ? === seb128_ [n=seb128@ANancy-151-1-45-177.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === loogaroo [n=manuel@u-124-094.adsl.univie.ac.at] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:48] +1 [09:48] ok [09:48] jbailey: if you could lead discussion and implementation for it, go for it [09:48] No problem, i'll follow that through. [09:48] Kamion: how are -updates uploads published? [09:49] next thing on the agenda is me ... [09:49] Kamion: certainly there is a girl for it which could be modified to spit out template emails? [09:49] this is probably a no-brainer, but I didn't want to go ahead and make such a change without at least checking with some other people first === seb128_ [n=seb128@ANancy-151-1-45-177.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] [09:49] Keybuk, breaking the wrold again ? [09:49] Mmmm. Modified girl. [09:49] (sounds ike an ingrediant) === seb128_ [n=seb128@ANancy-151-1-45-177.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:49] currently there's no useful place during boot to put things like pid files, control sockets, dhcp leases, etc. [09:50] /var/run isn't useful? [09:50] /var/run should be that useful place, but it's either on the root filesystem and not yet r/w or on another filesystem altogether [09:50] (See NFS-root cases) [09:50] it's fine once in rc2.d, but in rcS.d it's sub-optimal [09:50] Keybuk: Is this one beast to add to your movemount collection? [09:50] +more [09:50] so my proposal is to make /var/run a tmpfs that's always available [09:51] Keybuk: when would you mount that? [09:51] which would mean anything writing into a sub-directory of it would need to make that sub-directory if it doesn't already exist [09:51] pitti: no it's just kelly -z [09:51] pitti: which is just the thing that does accepted->installed [09:51] pitti: probably in the initramfs, and moved to /root/var/run [09:51] Keybuk: if you mount it in initramfs, then a later mount of /var in fstab would shadow it, right? and mouting it late would defeat the purpose? [09:51] then if not already mounted, in the first init script [09:52] and in the mountall script, if we mount /var as something else, so a move dance to keep it there [09:52] heh [09:53] so that's it really, is this sane or should I go find some other solution? [09:53] for the records, we already fixed one or two packages to create /var/run/, but it certainly needs some more fixes to have complete coverage [09:53] LSB does allow for packages to rely on the existence of /var/run/directory, so it could give us some hard time with keeping up [09:53] (especially for universe) [09:53] but I didn't actually count the number of affected packages [09:54] the fix is trivial, though [09:54] *nods* [09:55] Keybuk: So the main downside is that we may need to alter some packages that expect subdirectories to be persistant? [09:55] <\sh> pitti: if this can be done after UVF...no problem with me ,) [09:55] \sh: it's a trivial bug fix, sure [09:55] mjg59: right [09:55] \sh: just a mkdir -p and a chmod/chown in the init script [09:55] Keybuk: Hm. I worry a bit about it being a semantic change. [09:56] <\sh> pitti: so we need a list of all packages who are bringing in some init.d scripts... [09:56] Keybuk: Do we have any idea how many packages it would break, and have you discussed this with Debian at all? [09:56] \sh: no, packages which put stuff into /var/run [09:56] \sh: and either ship a directory in /var/run, or create it in postinst [09:56] in main, I've found only one or two that it breaks, and the Debian maintainer of both seemed happy to accept the patch [09:56] there are also packages that have /var/run/ in the code... [09:56] most of them already have patches to make it work [09:57] Keybuk: Ok, sounds good [09:57] sounds like 'early breakage' [09:57] <\sh> I need an aspirin, a tea, some drugs, and a list of packages for later.. [09:58] \sh: this can add up to the list of remaining merges, or just add this when working on a merge :) [09:58] s/add/patch/ [09:59] ok, any further business? [09:59] jdong: are you here? [09:59] <\sh> sivang: if you have such a package to merge ... do it now...or after uvf and when all the merges are done [10:00] I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :) [10:00] that was 20min ago [10:00] yeah, sadly I've got to run in a minute too :-/ [10:00] the answer to jdong is the same as jbailey, make sure the LP spec is right [10:01] several already exist, from what I can see [10:01] i thought Mez worked on one at ubz [10:01] ok, end of meeting then [10:01] the next TB meeting will be in 4 weeks time I guess [10:01] as two-weeks is the 27th [10:01] Wow. That was swift. [10:01] <\sh> well...I think there is no need for a new process...because elmo is processing all the request when he has time...and thats pretty often.. [10:02] oh, is there time for me to slot in one question? [10:02] yup... and LP is near (somehow) [10:02] forgot to put it on the agenda [10:02] meh, go on then [10:02] were my minutes too long? [10:02] if not, no worries [10:02] is it quick? [10:02] so Debian is in the middle of killing off base-config [10:02] and moving the entire installation to the first stage [10:02] this would kill off a fair few of my bugs, so I'm inclined to follow suit [10:02] that sounds nice actually [10:03] my question is whether this is an utterly insane thing to do for dapper? [10:03] sounds nice to me, we've already done some of that? [10:03] yes, but not the big long package installation step [10:03] ultimately I think that's possibly your call ;) [10:03] Keybuk: you can drop my item from the agenda, I don't think it'll be necessary as of now [10:03] you'd judge better than anyone else whether it's doable [10:03] the downside is that it means that it takes longer to find out whether your newly-installed system actually boots [10:03] btw elmo thx very much for pushing those backports through today! [10:04] and it will slow down the installation, no ? since you do everything from CD ? [10:04] Keybuk: ok, I thought it was a big enough change that I ought to bring it up, but if that's your feeling then fine, I'll judge by how quickly the code matures upstream [10:04] ogra: no, actually it'll speed it up because we can throw away archive-copier [10:04] ah, k [10:04] yes, thats a 10min step less ... [10:04] there'll be some extra seeking back and forward, but I think it'll be dwarfed === sivang wil be waiting to test those images :) [10:05] righto, thanks [10:07] <\sh> ok..going back to sleep away my cold [10:07] ok, seems we are done? [10:08] \sh: what a coincidence, lol [10:09] <\sh> jdong: well...after 2 years really avoiding a heavy illness...I think it's time to have a much more nicer cold, coming along with fever and body pain [10:09] \sh: intestinal flu with me here.... while suffering deep muscle stress... does not go together well === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] [10:10] <\sh> ok...cu later...when I can't sleep anymore :) [10:10] have fun === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [10:10] \sh: get well! === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Ju [n=Ju@c-24-126-231-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:25] Hi all ! === ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089F9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === janimo [n=jani@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [10:45] what the... was there just a TB meeting? [10:45] "just".. === Burgwork [n=corey@S010600131016cf6f.gv.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [10:54] ogra: ping? [10:54] vuntz, ? [10:55] I'm not sure of the list you were talking about :-) [10:55] ubuntu developers in launchpad [10:55] ah [10:55] I thought I asked to be removed from it [10:55]