[12:05] <rob1> does anyone know when the next CC meeting will be?
[12:07] <rob1> week 51..
[12:07] <Kamion> 20th December, time TBD
[12:08] <rob1> ok, thanks Kamion 
[08:52] <pitti> hi
[08:53] <ogra> ho
[08:59] <Keybuk> ok
[08:59] <Keybuk> let's get this show on the road
[08:59] <Keybuk> sabdfl is at dinner, so won't be coming
[08:59] <Keybuk> and mdz has buggered off on holiday
[09:00] <mjg59> Ok
[09:00] <mjg59> So what have we got lined up for us today?
[09:00] <jdong> the crowd ain't as big compared to CC meetings, huh?
[09:00] <jbailey> Keybuk: So as in, you don't have quorum anyway?
[09:00] <Keybuk> is Jani Monoses here?
[09:00] <janimo> here
[09:00] <Keybuk> jbailey: we've always considered two a quorum
[09:00] <jbailey> Ah, cool.
[09:01] <Keybuk> janimo: you've proposed yourself for main upload privileges
[09:01] <janimo> yes, for xfce/xubuntu packages
[09:01] <janimo> mainly for that
[09:01] <Keybuk> would you like to make your case
[09:01] <Keybuk> well, I can certainly say you've been doing a lot of work on them
[09:02] <Keybuk> have you been doing much work with the existing MOTU team?
[09:02] <janimo> I'd like xubuntu to be supported and CDs built for it for dapper
[09:02] <janimo> Keybuk, not much MOTU work recently
[09:02] <janimo> only xfce related uploads
[09:02] <Keybuk> how would you like to improve xfce's integration with ubuntu?
[09:02] <fabbione> Janimo: the point is that once you get main upload privileges, you can theoretically upload everything
[09:02] <janimo> it is well integrated already, but a few more things to add
[09:03] <fabbione> there is no distinction at the moment
[09:03] <janimo> add gdm and make it a CD
[09:03] <janimo> fabbione I know
[09:03] <janimo> I have uploaded an informationa XubuntuDapperRoadmap spec today with more details
[09:03] <mjg59> janimo: So, what does Xubuntu involve?
[09:04] <janimo> ubuntu standard + x +xfce packages
[09:04] <janimo> + a few other apps
[09:04] <janimo> right now we have xubuntu-desktop
[09:04] <janimo> the mmain gripe of usres is missing a CD install
[09:04] <janimo> that would be alot easier if all packages were in main
[09:05] <mjg59> janimo: Is the aim to be as well-integrated as Ubuntu?
[09:05] <janimo> mjg59, rigth
[09:05] <mjg59> That is, should Xubuntu aim to fulfil the same specifications?
[09:05] <janimo> easy to use, always free things like that you mean? sure
[09:05] <janimo> or technical specs?
[09:05] <fabbione> janimo: both
[09:05] <mjg59> janimo: I was thinking more in terms of NetworkMagic, power management, that sort of hting
[09:05] <janimo> well then answer is yes for both 
[09:06] <fabbione> it needs to match the same quality and consistency
[09:06] <janimo> yes, I intedn to work on power mgmt
[09:06] <Keybuk> how would you plan to get others to help with the packaging work?
[09:06] <janimo> and most of the related specs as I cab
[09:06] <janimo> Keybuk, it is not much packaging involved, as we use debian packages
[09:06] <mjg59> I certainly think that the aim for anything in the *ubuntu namespace should be to provide roughly the same level of user experience, but it sounds like you're aiming for that
[09:06] <janimo> I intend to work with them
[09:07] <Keybuk> have you had to make many modifications to the packages yourself so far?
[09:07] <mjg59> janimo: Have you been working with them so far?
[09:07] <janimo> mjg59, yes aiming for that but xfce is not the same user experience as gnome/kde even upstream so that transaltes here too
[09:07] <janimo> Keybuk, yes a few
[09:07] <mjg59> janimo: Sure, I realise that there are limitations
[09:07] <janimo> to packaging and to code in packages
[09:08] <Keybuk> so you feel you know your way around Debian/Ubuntu packaging?  have you done much else besides XFCE?
[09:08] <janimo> Keybuk, some of the changes are not yet in debian, some are not upstream xfce either
[09:08] <janimo> but pushing them actively
[09:08] <ogra> there are even heavy technical differences between edubuntu/ubuntu (i.e. edubuntu installs a bunch odf server stuff which doesnt comply with the "no open ports" directive)
[09:08] <ogra> so i wouldnt see the binding to tight 
[09:08] <janimo> Keybuk, I have been a MOTU since about before Hoary and worked on some merges back then
[09:09] <janimo> but since then it is mostly xfce related changes or new packages
[09:09] <janimo> all starting with xubuntu-
[09:09] <mjg59> janimo: Is there a reasonable xfce userbase right now?
[09:09] <Keybuk> dholbach, ogra: have you worked with janimo much?
[09:09] <janimo> some in universe some only in REVU
[09:09] <janimo> mjg59, I don;t know how to estimate that :)
[09:09] <ogra> Keybuk, yes, for a while, he's a longstanding member of MOTU
[09:09] <mjg59> janimo: Heh. Well, do you get bugs filed?
[09:09] <janimo> I'd say 10%-15% of linux users?
[09:10] <janimo> duno honestly
[09:10] <janimo> yes
[09:10] <janimo> but xfce has a _lot_ less bugs then gnome/kde even upstream, it is a lot simpler
[09:10] <mjg59> Sure
[09:10] <Keybuk> anyone else got any questions for janimo ?
[09:10] <mjg59> But it sounds like there are people using the packages, and from what ogra says it sounds like there would be good reason to have them in main
[09:10] <janimo> mjg59, yes
[09:11] <fabbione> janimo: are you familiar with security?
[09:11] <janimo> I get the occasional thank you eamail from time to time , with the request for CD images :)
[09:11] <fabbione> if so how much?
[09:11] <fabbione> how much can you commit for it?
[09:11] <ogra> mjg59, absolutely ... we had a lightweight target for hoary already which wasnt completed, xubuntu might fill that gap
[09:11] <janimo> fabbione, not much besides occasional peeks at bugtrack but I am cautios
[09:11] <pitti> btw, there has been one XFCE related vulnerability so far, in 2000
[09:11] <janimo> fabbione,commit for security?
[09:12] <janimo> pitti, another code base xfce3
[09:12] <janimo> so 0 actually :)
[09:12] <pitti> janimo: right, what I wanted to say is, that's damn few
[09:12] <fabbione> janimo: if xubuntu enters main, it also means providing -security support. are you ready to commit to it?
[09:12] <janimo> shame on them
[09:12] <ogra> heh
[09:12] <janimo> fabbione, yes both secutiry and updates
[09:12] <ogra> according to pitti that might be a boring job :)
[09:13] <janimo> indeed :)
[09:13] <pitti> janimo: does xfce ship with any suid programs for doing hardware magic? does it handle hardware at all?
[09:13] <janimo> no suid programs
[09:13] <pitti> janimo: like automounting, networking, etc.?
[09:13] <jdong> pitti: I believe it uses g-v-m to handle those things
[09:13] <Keybuk> my one comment is that we work very much as a team, and so far you've been mostly working alone on these packages -- so once in main, you'll need to both help others work with your packages and also be ready to sponsor uploads for the MOTU ... are you happy with that?
[09:13] <janimo> for automounting we will use ivman now kubuntu does not
[09:13] <janimo> jdong, no ivman
[09:13] <jdong> ah, ok
[09:14] <jdong> been quite a while since I've used XFCE
[09:14] <janimo> Keybuk, I am happy
[09:14] <ogra> Keybuk, he worked a lot with crimsun
[09:14] <ogra> in a two man team
[09:14] <ogra> (its not the one man show it seems o be)
[09:14] <Keybuk> mjg59: any further questions?
[09:14] <pitti> that's twice as big as our edubuntu and kubuntu teams :)
[09:14] <janimo> Keybuk I have been working alone since MOTUs are very busy with merging and their other teams
[09:15] <ogra> pitti, yeah 
[09:15] <janimo> crimsun is swamped with multimedia related work
[09:15] <mjg59> janimo: It would be good to see work stick fairly closely with the Debian packagers, but I think you've said that you plan to work with them already
[09:15] <sivang> is this TB meeting?
[09:15] <janimo> mjg59, I just got an alioth acount today to get svn commit access
[09:15] <pitti> sivang: yes
[09:15] <janimo> to help pushing our changes up
[09:15] <mjg59> janimo: Cool
[09:16] <mjg59> Keybuk: Ok, I think I'm done
[09:16] <Riddell> janimo: xfce has a file manager I believe.  does it have a web browser, music player, console? (to pick the apps I have open just now)
[09:16] <pitti> janimo: that's good, so the Debian maintainers acknowledge you as a co-maintainer then?
[09:16] <Keybuk> ok, your vote?
[09:16] <janimo> Riddell, I think we'll use thunar as  the default fimemanager
[09:16] <mjg59> +1 from me
[09:16] <janimo> we'll have firefox, xfmedai, xfce4-teminal
[09:16] <Keybuk> +1 from me also
[09:16] <Keybuk> Janimo: welcome aboard
[09:16] <pitti> congrats janimo 
[09:16] <janimo> thanks all :)
[09:17] <ogra> YAY, welcome janimo 
[09:17] <janimo> nice to join the team
[09:17] <ogra> :)
[09:17] <mjg59> Ok, moving on? How many developer candidates have we got today?
[09:17] <janimo> I'll probably help out with other main work if needed
[09:17] <Keybuk> Johnny Mast, are you here?
[09:17] <ajmitch> janimo: good work :)
[09:17] <Keybuk> Brandon Hale, are you here?
[09:17] <janimo> pitti, yes they are ok with me working close woth them
[09:18] <ogra> Keybuk, tseng is already in ubuntu core
[09:18] <Keybuk> you know, I thought he was
[09:18] <ogra> (brandon hale)
[09:18] <Keybuk> didn't mentally match the name
[09:18] <sivang> welcome janimo , to main? :)
[09:18] <Keybuk> jdong: I can see you're here
[09:18] <jdong> :)
[09:18] <janimo> sivang, yes :)
[09:18] <Keybuk> ok
[09:18] <Keybuk> jdong: you've applied to join the MOTU team
[09:18] <sivang> janimo: big congrets :)
[09:18] <ogra> is vuntz here ? 
[09:18] <jdong> Keybuk: correct
[09:19] <Keybuk> so, I guess, first off, what have you been working on so far and what would you like to work on?
[09:19] <jdong> Well, my work is primarily concentrated in Backports, and Backports does the most work in Universe
[09:19] <jdong> as a result, sometimes the Backports team needs to have changes done in Universe and such
[09:20] <jdong> currently, the Team has Mez and slomo who are on MOTU
[09:20] <mjg59> jdong: Is that "the most work in Universe" or "does most of its work in Universe"?
[09:20] <jdong> and at times that's not enough
[09:20] <vuntz> ogra: I'm here, but I'm going away for ~30 minutes right now
[09:20] <ogra> vuntz, just because you are on the list 
[09:20] <jdong> mjg59: a combination of both: Most requested packages are in Universe, and most "issues" we find are also stemming from Universe packages
[09:21] <Keybuk> right, but you don't upload the resulting backports to universe?
[09:21] <jdong> no, I don't
[09:21] <mjg59> jdong: Your phrasing seemed to suggest that backports did more work in universe than any other group
[09:21] <ogra> Keybuk, the process for backports is a bit different ...
[09:21] <jdong> mjg59: maybe I'm having a bad day with phrasing things :)
[09:21] <mjg59> jdong: Ok, as long as that's not what you meant, then fine :)
[09:22] <ogra> Keybuk, elmo just triggeres them if jdong tested locally ...
[09:22] <jdong> and ogra has been nagging for me to join MOTU too :-D
[09:22] <jdong> ever since day one
[09:22] <Keybuk> ogra: so you'd support jdong's application?
[09:22] <mjg59> jdong: So how would being an MOTU change things for you?
[09:22] <ogra> jdong, but i can hardly judge your packaging skills ...
[09:23] <ogra> mjg59, if changes have to be made to a package to backport fine, someone has to touch the package ...
[09:23] <jdong> mjg59: Well, first off I hope that it would mean less of me bitching at others... and I can do work without relying on others
[09:24] <ogra> mjg59, so it would be a requirement to have one of the backporters being able to do that, Mez is rarely here recently, he wanted to take that role
[09:24] <jdong> ogra: I'm pretty experienced with packaging, but not with the specific Debian tools used to upload and such
[09:24] <mjg59> jdong: Well, we'd prefer there to be no bitching regardless of the situation...
[09:24] <jdong> mjg59: I suppose _nagging_ would be a better word :)
[09:24] <mjg59> Heh. Sure.
[09:24] <jdong> mjg59: I'm known as the one who walks in to #ubuntu-motu just to ask for stuff to be done
[09:25] <ogra> the thing is that if a package needs minor changes, they have to be done (uploaded) by someone with upload rights ....
[09:25] <ajmitch> jdong: who has worked with you on packaging changes that can vouch for those skills?
[09:25] <ogra> so that will either put a burden on MOTU or we get and uploader from the bp team
[09:25] <jdong> ajmitch: that's the thing -- I haven't really needed to do anything of that magnitude with MOTU before
[09:26] <jdong> ajmitch: usually the types of changes Backports needs are very minor
[09:26] <jdong> i.e. changing a version on b-d's, etc
[09:26] <ogra> and i'd like to see jdong in that role since he merely leads backports ... but you would have to work a bit with the motu to prove your skills i public
[09:26] <ogra> s/i/in
[09:26] <jdong> ogra: yes, absolutely :)
[09:27] <Keybuk> ogra: would you preferred he worked with you before being granted upload rights?
[09:27] <jdong> ogra: and I'll try to spend time working on other stuff in MOTU too
[09:27] <\sh> g
[09:27] <ogra> Keybuk, not particulary with me personally but with the MOTU team so he can get some votes for his knowledge
[09:27] <\sh> evening...too late
[09:28] <ajmitch> hi \sh 
[09:28] <Keybuk> ok, I tend to concur; I'd prefer jdong to work a bit more with you guys so you feel confident about his skills first
[09:28] <ogra> Keybuk, i simply cant judge his skills ince i never used any backport in ubuntu yet
[09:28] <Keybuk> mjg59: what do you think?
[09:28] <ogra> jdong, that would be rad :)
[09:29] <mjg59> I'm broadly in favour, but I'd agree with Keybuk - some more time doing general MOTU work would be good
[09:29] <\sh> I agree with ogra...I think it's better to have an overview about his skills in common...
[09:29] <\sh> for this, he has to come more often to -motu
[09:29] <Keybuk> jdong: would you mind working a bit more closely with the MOTU team, and come back at the next TB meeting when they should be able to praise your skills
[09:29] <jdong> Keybuk: sure
[09:30] <jdong> I'll try to be in #ubuntu-motu more often
[09:30] <jdong> and follow what the guys there want me to do :)
[09:30] <Keybuk> ok, we'll postpone to then; your work looks great so far to me, but we're very much a team distro, so come to the next TB meeting with praise from the MOTU team for your work so far there
[09:30] <jdong> ok, cool
[09:31] <Keybuk> ok ... now is anyone else here waiting for universe upload privileges who hasn't made it to a meeting since they proposed themselves?
[09:31] <\sh> jdong: work with us on the rest of the merges...and bug fixes has to be done soon. I think we agree to help you out with the uploads..so we can see your work 
[09:31] <Keybuk> jbailey: are you fit and rebooted, or do you need a bit more time?
[09:32] <jbailey> Keybuk: I'm rebooted.
[09:32] <jdong> \sh: absolutely I need much more packaging experience for MOTU :)
[09:32] <Keybuk> ok, Mirror Status, the floor is yours
[09:32] <jdong> I just want to take the first step today :)
[09:32] <ogra> jdong, thats really great, i'm happy you do that :)
[09:32] <mjg59> jbailey: Can you explain what the problem is, and how we should deal with it?
[09:32] <ogra> (you know how log i nagged you for it ;) )
[09:33] <jdong> :)
[09:33] <jbailey> mjg59: The mirrors occasionally have trouble, running out of space, or failing to update, etc.
[09:33] <jbailey> mjg59: Right now the only way to get this information is by pinging James or Karl directly.
[09:33] <jdong> more than occasionally
[09:33] <ogra> yes, the us mirror seems to be a PITA 
[09:34] <elmo> jbailey: you realise there's LP specs about this, right?
[09:34] <jbailey> That means that getting this information is limited by timezones / availability of two people.
[09:34] <jbailey> elmo: Right.  But that means that it's 6 months to a year away.
[09:34] <elmo> jbailey: says who?
[09:34] <jbailey> elmo: I don't remember seeing it on the priority list for dapper.
[09:35] <jbailey> The problem is right now when we know there are mirror problems, that information is not exposed in a useful way.
[09:35] <Keybuk> so what would you propose instead of the LP spec?
[09:36] <elmo> when was the last time US mirror was broken just out of interest?
[09:36] <elmo> because AFAIK, it hasn't broken since we started pushing it with a two stage push
[09:36] <jbailey> elmo: Mmm.  Right before ubz I think?
[09:36] <elmo> and that was ? weeks? ago
[09:36] <elmo> jbailey: ...
[09:36] <jdong> elmo: I got some md5sum mismatches fairly recently (2 weeks?)
[09:36] <jbailey> elmo: This was intended to come up at the last TB meeting, which I couldn't make.
[09:36] <Keybuk> tbh, I don't see anything here for the TB to decide
[09:36] <Keybuk> there's a LP spec for it, which is the long-term solution
[09:36] <jbailey> Keybuk: mdz refered me to the TB
[09:37] <Keybuk> and the short-term solution appears to be "ask elmo"
[09:37] <jbailey> Right.
[09:37] <elmo> jdong: dude, you tried to convince me you had md5sum mismatches for breezy on archive.u.c
[09:37] <jbailey> I'm saying that short term solution isn't always useful.
[09:37] <Keybuk> which is true for most of our archive management right now
[09:37] <jdong> elmo: Maybe my weeks are off :)
[09:37] <jbailey> Right now that request is that we ask the archive administrators to keep a status board of some sort on mirror status so that known issues can be looked at right away.
[09:37] <jdong> elmo: but the first few weeks of Breezy's release
[09:38] <elmo> jbailey: why on earth are you going to the TB in the first instance with this?
[09:38] <ogra> which would be pre ubz
[09:38] <jbailey> elmo: mdz refered me to the tb.
[09:38] <Keybuk> imo, mdz should have referred you to elmo
[09:39] <jbailey> Who ultimately makes the decisions about how these issues are handled?
[09:40] <elmo> the same person who ultimately makes all decisions?
[09:40] <Keybuk> mdz, sabdfl, elmo, etc.
[09:40] <jbailey> So it was probably refered here for discussion at a time when all the parties are generally available.  
[09:40] <elmo> jbailey: in any event my point is that you didn't even try asking the people who currently run the mirrors
[09:40] <elmo> which is, umm, nice
[09:40] <elmo> really
[09:41] <jdong> I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :)
[09:41] <Keybuk> mjg59: anything from your corner?
[09:41] <jbailey> elmo: My contact for distro things when driven by customers asking me questions is always mdz.
[09:41] <elmo> jbailey: don't be obtuse
[09:41] <mjg59> Without knowing why mdz thought it should be brought up here, I'm not sure we can do too much
[09:41] <elmo> if a customer asked you about gcc, you'd go to doko, not mdz
[09:41] <mjg59> Can we punt this until mdz is around?
[09:41] <jbailey> elmo: Actually, no.  I'd email mdz.
[09:41] <jbailey> Unless it was somthing I thought could be answered very quickly.
[09:41] <Keybuk> yeah, that's my best suggestion right now ... wait until mdz is back, to see whether he had any reason for bring it here
[09:41] <elmo> well maybe the TB should look at how you communicate with the distro team then ... 
[09:42] <Keybuk> until then, jbailey: 1) make sure the LP spec meets your needs
[09:42] <Kamion> presumably the idea of stuff going through mdz is so that mdz can manage how much distro team time is taken up by escalated support
[09:42] <Keybuk> and 2) buy elmo some flowers, and ask him nicely?
[09:42] <jbailey> Kamion: Yes, as well as tracking and stuff.  Before he was a bit surprised that I had been asking the distro team for things and that he hadn't been aware of it.
[09:43] <Keybuk> ok, so the advisory list thing
[09:43] <Keybuk> you're suggesting some kind of process that involves compiling a list of packages in *-updates and what they chance?
[09:43] <Keybuk> uh, change?
[09:44] <Keybuk> similar to the existing security stuff?
[09:44] <jbailey> Right - not necessarily a list, but an explanation or advisory by email as to why updates are coming out.
[09:44] <pitti> oh, interesting idea
[09:44] <jbailey> The notification applet stuff isn't always sufficient to explain what's going on, or that it's coming.
[09:44] <pitti> but isn't apt-listchanges something that should come close?
[09:44] <Kamion> Could amber be modified to do -updates?
[09:44] <jbailey> So in some ways it can look like a security update that showed up without an advisory.
[09:45] <Kamion> (speaking as an occasional -updates approver, I don't want to have to construct those things by hand)
[09:45] <jbailey> Kamion: Right.  I don't have any suggestions as to the machanics of this.
[09:45] <jbailey> Certainly I'd be willing to construct these for the -updates that I do and add them to the mix somehow.
[09:45] <Keybuk> from my corner, yes something like this would be nice, propose it on #ubuntu-devel and rally people round to figure out how to do it
[09:46] <pitti> well, for updates we maybe don't need md5sums and such; but still some template would be nice for version numbers etc.
[09:46] <mjg59> Right. I think it's reasonable to tell people why we're giving them an update.
[09:46] <jbailey> pitti: I'm not sure how a -update is different than a security patch in that sense.
[09:46] <Keybuk> so +1 from me, sounds like a nice thing to do
[09:47] <pitti> jbailey: well, as long as amber generates these, I don't particularly care
[09:47] <jbailey> pitti: In any event we're delivering them a package, so it would be nice to have the usual trappings.  md5sum is the easiest part to generate. =)
[09:47] <Keybuk> mjg59: ?
[09:48] <mjg59> +1
[09:48] <Keybuk> ok
[09:48] <Keybuk> jbailey: if you could lead discussion and implementation for it, go for it
[09:48] <jbailey> No problem, i'll follow that through.
[09:48] <pitti> Kamion: how are -updates uploads published?
[09:49] <Keybuk> next thing on the agenda is me ...
[09:49] <pitti> Kamion: certainly there is a girl for it which could be modified to spit out template emails?
[09:49] <Keybuk> this is probably a no-brainer, but I didn't want to go ahead and make such a change without at least checking with some other people first
[09:49] <ogra> Keybuk, breaking the wrold again ? 
[09:49] <jbailey> Mmmm.  Modified girl.
[09:49] <jbailey> (sounds ike an ingrediant)
[09:49] <Keybuk> currently there's no useful place during boot to put things like pid files, control sockets, dhcp leases, etc.
[09:50] <pitti> /var/run isn't useful?
[09:50] <Keybuk> /var/run should be that useful place, but it's either on the root filesystem and not yet r/w or on another filesystem altogether
[09:50] <mjg59> (See NFS-root cases)
[09:50] <Keybuk> it's fine once in rc2.d, but in rcS.d it's sub-optimal
[09:50] <jbailey> Keybuk: Is this one beast to add to your movemount collection?
[09:50] <jbailey> +more
[09:50] <Keybuk> so my proposal is to make /var/run a tmpfs that's always available
[09:51] <pitti> Keybuk: when would you mount that?
[09:51] <Keybuk> which would mean anything writing into a sub-directory of it would need to make that sub-directory if it doesn't already exist
[09:51] <Kamion> pitti: no it's just kelly -z
[09:51] <Kamion> pitti: which is just the thing that does accepted->installed
[09:51] <Keybuk> pitti: probably in the initramfs, and moved to /root/var/run
[09:51] <pitti> Keybuk: if you mount it in initramfs, then a later mount of /var in fstab would shadow it, right? and mouting it late would defeat the purpose?
[09:51] <Keybuk> then if not already mounted, in the first init script
[09:52] <Keybuk> and in the mountall script, if we mount /var as something else, so a move dance to keep it there
[09:52] <pitti> heh
[09:53] <Keybuk> so that's it really, is this sane or should I go find some other solution?
[09:53] <pitti> for the records, we already fixed one or two packages to create /var/run/<package subdir>, but it certainly needs some more fixes to have complete coverage
[09:53] <pitti> LSB does allow for packages to rely on the existence of /var/run/directory, so it could give us some hard time with keeping up
[09:53] <pitti> (especially for universe)
[09:53] <pitti> but I didn't actually count the number of affected packages
[09:54] <pitti> the fix is trivial, though
[09:54] <Keybuk> *nods*
[09:55] <mjg59> Keybuk: So the main downside is that we may need to alter some packages that expect subdirectories to be persistant?
[09:55] <\sh> pitti: if this can be done after UVF...no problem with me ,)
[09:55] <pitti> \sh: it's a trivial bug fix, sure
[09:55] <Keybuk> mjg59: right
[09:55] <pitti> \sh: just a mkdir -p and a chmod/chown in the init script
[09:55] <mjg59> Keybuk: Hm. I worry a bit about it being a semantic change.
[09:56] <\sh> pitti: so we need a list of all packages who are bringing in some init.d scripts...
[09:56] <mjg59> Keybuk: Do we have any idea how many packages it would break, and have you discussed this with Debian at all?
[09:56] <pitti> \sh: no, packages which put stuff into /var/run
[09:56] <pitti> \sh: and either ship a directory in /var/run, or create it in postinst
[09:56] <Keybuk> in main, I've found only one or two that it breaks, and the Debian maintainer of both seemed happy to accept the patch
[09:56] <fabbione> there are also packages that have /var/run/ in the code...
[09:56] <Keybuk> most of them already have patches to make it work
[09:57] <mjg59> Keybuk: Ok, sounds good
[09:57] <pitti> sounds like 'early breakage'
[09:57] <\sh> I need an aspirin, a tea, some drugs, and a list of packages for later..
[09:58] <sivang> \sh: this can add up to the list of remaining merges, or just add this when working on a merge :)
[09:58] <sivang> s/add/patch/
[09:59] <Keybuk> ok, any further business?
[09:59] <Keybuk> jdong: are you here?
[09:59] <\sh> sivang: if you have such a package to merge ... do it now...or after uvf and when all the merges are done
 I gotta run, be back in like 15-20 minutes, hopefully in time :)
[10:00] <ogra> that was 20min ago
[10:00] <Keybuk> yeah, sadly I've got to run in a minute too :-/
[10:00] <Keybuk> the answer to jdong is the same as jbailey, make sure the LP spec is right
[10:01] <Keybuk> several already exist, from what I can see
[10:01] <ogra> i thought Mez worked on one at ubz
[10:01] <Keybuk> ok, end of meeting then
[10:01] <Keybuk> the next TB meeting will be in 4 weeks time I guess
[10:01] <Keybuk> as two-weeks is the 27th
[10:01] <mjg59> Wow. That was swift.
[10:01] <\sh> well...I think there is no need for a new process...because elmo is processing all the request when he has time...and thats pretty often..
[10:02] <Kamion> oh, is there time for me to slot in one question?
[10:02] <ogra> yup... and LP is near (somehow)
[10:02] <Kamion> forgot to put it on the agenda
[10:02] <Keybuk> meh, go on then
[10:02] <jdong> were my minutes too long?
[10:02] <Kamion> if not, no worries
[10:02] <Keybuk> is it quick?
[10:02] <Kamion> so Debian is in the middle of killing off base-config
[10:02] <Kamion> and moving the entire installation to the first stage
[10:02] <Kamion> this would kill off a fair few of my bugs, so I'm inclined to follow suit
[10:02] <pitti> that sounds nice actually
[10:03] <Kamion> my question is whether this is an utterly insane thing to do for dapper?
[10:03] <Keybuk> sounds nice to me, we've already done some of that?
[10:03] <Kamion> yes, but not the big long package installation step
[10:03] <Keybuk> ultimately I think that's possibly your call ;)
[10:03] <jdong> Keybuk: you can drop my item from the agenda, I don't think it'll be necessary as of now
[10:03] <Keybuk> you'd judge better than anyone else whether it's doable
[10:03] <Kamion> the downside is that it means that it takes longer to find out whether your newly-installed system actually boots
[10:03] <jdong> btw elmo thx very much for pushing those backports through today!
[10:04] <ogra> and it will slow down the installation, no ? since you do everything from CD ?
[10:04] <Kamion> Keybuk: ok, I thought it was a big enough change that I ought to bring it up, but if that's your feeling then fine, I'll judge by how quickly the code matures upstream
[10:04] <Kamion> ogra: no, actually it'll speed it up because we can throw away archive-copier
[10:04] <ogra> ah, k
[10:04] <ogra> yes, thats a 10min step less ...
[10:04] <Kamion> there'll be some extra seeking back and forward, but I think it'll be dwarfed
[10:05] <Kamion> righto, thanks
[10:07] <\sh> ok..going back to sleep away my cold
[10:07] <pitti> ok, seems we are done?
[10:08] <jdong> \sh: what a coincidence, lol
[10:09] <\sh> jdong: well...after 2 years really avoiding a heavy illness...I think it's time to have a much more nicer cold, coming along with fever and body pain
[10:09] <jdong> \sh: intestinal flu with me here.... while suffering deep muscle stress... does not go together well
[10:10] <\sh> ok...cu later...when I can't sleep anymore :)
[10:10] <jdong> have fun
[10:10] <sivang> \sh: get well!
[10:25] <Ju> Hi all !
[10:45] <shawarma> what the... was there just a TB meeting?
[10:45] <shawarma> "just"..
[10:54] <vuntz> ogra: ping?
[10:54] <ogra> vuntz, ?
[10:55] <vuntz> I'm not sure of the list you were talking about :-)
[10:55] <ogra> ubuntu developers in launchpad
[10:55] <vuntz> ah
[10:55] <vuntz> I thought I asked to be removed from it
[10:55] <ogra> (MOTU)
[10:55] <vuntz> can you remove me from the list?
[10:56] <ogra> i dont think so
[10:56] <ogra> i have no admin rights there.... only th TB has
[10:56] <vuntz> okay
[10:57] <vuntz> I'll try to not forget to ask someone from the TB, then
[10:57] <vuntz> thanks
[11:05] <\sh> vuntz: why do you want to removed we need more people :)
[11:08] <vuntz> because I don't have time to join the group :/
[11:14] <dholbach> vuntz: one day we'll have the post of a king for motu too... :)
[11:15] <ogra> dholbach, we dont even have a crown yet ....
[11:15] <ogra> still a long way to go 
[11:16] <dholbach> yeah
[11:16] <ajmitch> we have the face of motu, so why not a crown?
[11:17] <ogra> ajmitch, make one, we can make it a trophy for the biggest amount of uploads for one release :)
[11:18] <ogra> indeed dholbach needs to get it belated first for his 400 hoary uploads ;)
[11:18] <ajmitch> ogra: I'd better get working ;)
[11:18] <ajmitch> 400 now?
[11:19] <ogra> wasnt it 400 back then ? 
[11:19] <dholbach> oh nononono
[11:19] <ajmitch> 200 iirc
[11:19] <dholbach> vuntzZz: is the king
[11:19] <ajmitch> I didn't even do that for breezy
[11:19] <ogra> dholbach, for next release
[11:19] <dholbach> he gets the crown
[11:19] <ogra> he already has the cool hat
[11:20] <ogra> where should he wear the crown ? 
[11:23] <slomo_> on top of the hat :)
[11:23] <ogra> hehe
[11:28] <\sh> oh damn..I'm sick I shouldn't do merges
[11:28] <\sh> *coughcough*
[11:29] <ajmitch> yeah right
[11:29] <ajmitch> we shouldn't take over -meeting too much ;)
[11:34] <azeem> I thought this *was* a meeting
[11:34] <ajmitch> it used to be
[11:34] <azeem> couldn't be bothered to look up which one exactly
[11:34] <azeem> ah