[08:59] <pitti> Hi
[09:00] <JaneW> hello
[09:00] <dholbach> hi
[09:00] <jbailey> *yawn*
[09:00] <doko> good morning
[09:00] <JaneW> jbailey: what's the time there?
[09:00] <jbailey> 03h00
[09:00] <JaneW> ouch
[09:00] <daniels> kamion's our glorious leader today, innit?
[09:01] <JaneW> yup
[09:01] <JaneW> so should be swift and to the point \0/
[09:01] <pitti> jbailey: you would certainly agree to shifting the whole cycle 3 hours backwards, right? :)
[09:01] <daniels> JaneW: you appear to have an overly big head ;)
[09:01] <daniels> pitti: no way man, that means I get meetings at 0400
[09:02] <jbailey> pitti: I don't see how it would matter.  It would just make the next one 4am, wouldn't it?
[09:02] <jbailey> Or is it a 6 hours rotation?
[09:02] <JaneW> it was 4am for me last week :P
[09:02] <JaneW> is kamion here yet?
[09:02] <doko> daniels: you don't have meetings at 4am? we should change that ;-P
[09:02] <jbailey> pitti: My goal is to go out dancing on these nights and do my update from my 770 at some access point.
[09:02] <doko> Kamion has vacations?
[09:03] <infinity> Yes.
[09:03] <daniels> doko: no tany more I don't
[09:03] <infinity> And if you try to take them away from him, he WILL hurt you.
[09:03] <daniels> jbailey: six-hour rotation
[09:03] <pitti> jbailey: great idea
[09:03] <Mithrandir> infinity: he was going to show up today for the meeting, AIUI.
[09:03] <JaneW> I shall start with my best BenC impersonation...
[09:04] <ogra> *yawn*
[09:04] <JaneW> BenC Hey. I don't think I'm going to be able to stay awake another 1.5 hours
[09:04] <JaneW> BenC here's my status:
[09:04] <JaneW> BenC * Major work this past week: Processed over 400 bugs on the kernel (all of them), closing ~175 (either by fixing, confirming they were fixed or closing because of inactivity). Needed this to be done before Flight 2 so that it was easier to process incoming bug reports.
[09:04] <JaneW> BenC * testing-server-hardware: Not started: Need to begin putting together the test suite.
[09:04] <JaneW> BenC * preventing-hardware-support-regressions: BLOCKED: Automated build system is under development. However, the free space on concordia is not stable enough to use (fluctuates daily). Current i386 build environment takes 3+Gigs (build+git-repo+ccache).
[09:04] <JaneW> BenC * ubuntu-server-kernel: In progress: Mostly done. Just need to add a server target for non-i386 architectures. These are much more simplistic than than the i386 kernels. Should be included with the next kernel upload (2.6.15-9.11).
[09:04] <JaneW> everyone happy with that?
[09:05] <infinity> Ecstatic.
[09:05] <JaneW> daniels: you want me to cut and paste you too?
[09:05] <daniels> yeah :)
[09:05] <daniels> ta
[09:06] <JaneW> daniels: this week: xorg rc3, fix a few FTBFSes, chase down bizzare xorg-server bug that makes it unusable on i810, start on making xserver-xorg maintainer scripts more clear, fix xvfb bugs, take the plunge and upgrade to udev new world order
[09:06] <JaneW> next week: leave tomorrow, fix xorg-server harder, continue on making scripts clear
[09:06] <JaneW> x-roadmap: keep on truckin'
[09:06] <JaneW> blocked: none
[09:06] <JaneW> xorg-server bug  -- core server bug that renders the whole thing unusable, and the inbuilt backtrace stuff doesn't give any BT at all, and gdb hangs when I attempt to attach to it.  \o/
[09:06] <JaneW> x-raodmap: Mostly there, just tracking continued version updates.  keep on truckin'
[09:06] <daniels> yeah, so that makes the server a no-go for now.  i'm trying to track it down with the other upstream guys at the moment.
[09:06] <JaneW> I know, why don;t I just do the meeting on my own!
[09:06] <infinity> JaneW : Sure, I'll /msg you my update. :)
[09:06] <daniels> release roadmap for xorg has us doing rc4 ... right now, actually, otherwise known as 'rc seriously'.
[09:07] <JaneW> daniels: that sounds pretty bad, is there a resolution in sight?
[09:07] <doko> daniels: do you know the status of the name sync of the gl/glu packages in unstable/dapper?
[09:07] <daniels> so we should be done with that fairly soon.  so hopefully the server will be fixed, which will fix a whole lot of bugs people are currently blaming on nautilus, and then I can get to fixing the scripts.
[09:07] <daniels> JaneW: yeah, it's only within the last two weeks, so we've got a fairly small target in terms of finding the culprit.
[09:07] <JaneW> daniels: ok good
[09:07] <infinity> daniels : Oh, also, xserver-common needs to get built from somewhere other than xorg sources.  The core -> common dep was stuck in as a stopgap because the world broke without it.
[09:08] <JaneW> side-track are ALL merges done yet?
[09:08] <daniels> doko: i'm working with gravity, the general view is that we'll do a, er, nmu of mesa sooner rather than later.
[09:08] <daniels> infinity: xserver-common will cease to exist the next time I upload xorg.  what's the actual issue? missing /etc/X11/X?
[09:08] <doko> daniels: thanks!
[09:08] <JaneW> ok dholbach 
[09:08] <infinity> daniels : Missing X binary, missing dexconf.
[09:08] <dholbach> merges: http://tinyurl.com/dgvf2
[09:09] <dholbach>  * inclusion-of-docs: uploaded an improved update to dapper - breezy-update yet to come
[09:09] <dholbach>  * formal-test-plans: some clarification on the pages, is wiki/Testing now - more Tests and more Media tests to come (Media meeting today)
[09:09] <dholbach>  * this week done: gnome 2.13.3, bugs
[09:09] <dholbach>  * this week to come: more bugs, {motu,media,desktop} team meeting, talk at umeet.uninet.edu
[09:09] <dholbach>  * next week: bug day, more bugs, merges?
[09:09] <infinity> daniels : The latter being particularly crucial, the former breaking GDM's default config.
[09:09] <JaneW> dholbach: thanks
[09:09] <daniels> infinity: *shrug*, xserver-xorg should dep it for dexconf and xorg-common should dep it for the symlink.  but dexconf is moving over to xserver-xorg anyway.
[09:09] <JaneW> doko
[09:09] <doko> this week:
[09:09] <doko> - toolchain-roadmap: minor updates (binutils, gcj-4.1), amd64-biarch (still blocked)
[09:09] <doko> - toolchain-dapper+1: blocked by preparation of wanna-build and buildd infrastructure (currently ongoing)
[09:09] <doko> - openoffice.org: support work
[09:09] <doko> - merges: doing more merges not on the list; we don't have merge reports where debian and ubuntu have different tarballs (will be addressed before next merge before UVF (Keybuk)).
[09:09] <doko> next week:
[09:09] <doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update (delayed again)
[09:10] <JaneW> doko: openoffcie is listed as proposed - is it a Dapper Goal?
[09:10] <JaneW> doko: and java roadmap is still not approved...
[09:11] <doko> JaneW: I hope it is, but that spec is informational anyway. I'll prepare separate topics for the next report
[09:11] <JaneW> but it's low priority
[09:11] <JaneW> doko: ok thanks
[09:11] <mvo> JaneW: can I go last please? I mixed up times 
[09:11] <JaneW> mvo: sure
[09:11] <daniels> (s/xorg-common/xserver-xorg-core/ in my last sentence.  headdesk.)
[09:12] <JaneW> ok fabbione : * server-candy: announce is out, community is growing fast. md5sum
[09:12] <JaneW> client did his first run yesterday. Upload to the archive will happen
[09:12] <JaneW> relatively soon. It is blocked by a couple of bugs, one missing feature
[09:12] <JaneW> and admins to create the server side. Wrote the PostfixCandy spec for
[09:12] <JaneW> mdz but it looks like not doable. /etc in RCS has been discussed with
[09:12] <JaneW> bzr guy. New spec wrote to address the remaining issues.
[09:12] <JaneW> * ubuntu-cluster: no progress this week. Still needs testing! People
[09:12] <JaneW> should help a bit here.
[09:12] <JaneW> * probe-for-root-filesystem: no progress this week.
[09:12] <JaneW> * boot-from-usb: blocked by probe-for-root-filesystem.
[09:12] <JaneW> * merges: zlib - still pending libc6-i386-dev, one minor pending but
[09:12] <JaneW> it's no hurry at all.
[09:12] <JaneW> * last week: a lot of md5sum client and server-candy work, prepared for
[09:12] <JaneW> today's talk.
[09:12] <JaneW> * next week: keep going server-candy full speed. kernel security.
[09:12] <JaneW> hopefully finish some cluster tests and start working on new cluster
[09:12] <JaneW> crack. Friday 16th i will start a bit later than usual but i will pick
[09:12] <JaneW> up the hours the same day.
[09:13] <infinity> JaneW : Me next?
[09:13] <JaneW> infinity: hit it
[09:13] <infinity> last week:
[09:13] <infinity>  - Did almost nothing I said I'd do last week, instead concentrating on making sure *-desktop and *-live were installable, so we could build CDs, getting linux-restricted-modules into shape, as well as other bugfixings and odds and ends.
[09:13] <infinity>  - Made vga16fb and usplash default to a more sane resolution that seems to work well for everyone, this became the default in Flight-2.
[09:13] <infinity> next week:
[09:13] <infinity>  - Getting the toolchain-dapper+1 stuff going for doko on the buildds
[09:13] <infinity>  - Everything else I said I'd do last week, but didn't.
[09:13] <JaneW> haha
[09:13] <JaneW> iwj
[09:14] <iwj> Firefox maintenance:  Working on a new release right now, to ship libnspr/libnss from firefox, and other fixes.  BreezyFirefoxStartPageTranslation didn't happen and Matthew East and I haven't quite settled on the scheme for Dapper.
[09:14] <iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: no change since last report.  Firefox needs more other work too.
[09:14] <iwj> AutomatedTesting:  I have implemented the first part (basic chroot-using virtualisation script).  Will probably pick up the rest after Christmas.  It would still be nice to have that straw man from Robert Collins.
[09:14] <iwj> ThinClientLocalDevices: spec is still in Drafting.  *BLOCKED*
[09:14] <iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
[09:14] <iwj> Holiday: tomorrow (Friday) is my last working day of 2005.
[09:14] <pitti> iwj: yay nspr/nss ;)
[09:14] <dholbach> pitti++
[09:14] <iwj> pitti: It's real joy there in the build system, I can tell you.

[09:14] <daniels> build systems are all shit.
[09:14] <pitti> everything in ffox is real joy, I believe
[09:14] <JaneW> cool
[09:14] <JaneW> jbailey: 
[09:15] <jbailey>  * ToolchainRoadmap: Delayed from last week to this week.  doko found a bug in my assumptions (I had forgotten about ldconfig biarch love.  Decided to do LinuxThreads/NPTL biarch for this too.  Both are now passing all tests.  Now that flight-2 is out, should be next 24h.
[09:15] <jbailey>  * ToolchainRoadmapNg: After the glibc biarch, will start to evaluate glibc needs. Want to start collecting feedback on dropping pre-i686 per  outstanding issues .
[09:15] <jbailey>  * General: glibc merge delayed by this as announced previously.  Punting grub bugs also delayed - it was a busy week.  This week, I plan to see which of the locale bugs were fixed with the Belocs merge.  I have a slight suspicion that it's all of them.  Oh yeah, and OMG, it's 3am.
[09:15] <JaneW> jbailey: no it;s not it 3:15 :P
[09:15] <JaneW> jdub??
[09:15] <jbailey> JaneW: Sure, you can include that under my status. =)
[09:15] <iwj> Can I suggest at this point that Matthew East and I should talk to langpack/rosetta maintainer about BreezyFirefoxStartPageTranslation and what to do for dapper ?
[09:16] <JaneW> iwj: sure, 'do it'
[09:16] <infinity> iwj : That would be a pitti and a Carlos, probably.
[09:16] <iwj> infinity: Ah, thanks :-).
[09:16] <pitti> yep
[09:16] <jbailey> iwj: I'd like to catch up with what that issues are, because for Breezy it seemed unsolvable.
[09:16] <pitti> probably me
[09:16] <JaneW> jdub has example-content, via e-mail he said: Yeah, sorry - too much traveling to attend the meetings or get anything done on it. I plan to start doing stuff on it as soon as I return home from OSDC , and will hopefully get a huge chunk of it done before Christmas break.
[09:16] <iwj> mdke: AYT?  Let's not have it now but when is good for you ?
[09:17] <JaneW> kamion: still not here?
[09:17] <JaneW> I'll get an e-mail update from him...
[09:17] <iwj> Isn't he on holiday still ?
[09:17] <dholbach> JaneW: i will talk to jdub about that... we need it for the media-related parts of formal-test-plans
[09:17] <Mithrandir> iwj: "still" as in, "for the last 12 hours", yes.
[09:17] <JaneW> yes, he said he was going to pop in for the meeting, might be sleeping though...
[09:17] <doko> jbailey, infinity: looks like I should put some toolchain work on my plan for next week ;)
[09:18] <JaneW> dholbach: yes please do, might spur him along...
[09:18] <dholbach> JaneW: i hope so :)
[09:18] <JaneW> keybuk?
[09:18] <iwj> mithrandir: I mean, since the last time we asked about him :-).
[09:18] <JaneW> ok I'll be keybuk too: udev-roadmap: done; we're pretty much at the stage where the bugs we're
[09:18] <JaneW> finding are turning out to be kernel bugs rather than udev bugs now.
[09:18] <JaneW> hardware-activation: having some issues with network interface
[09:18] <JaneW> activation, making sure we bring up things like static tun/ppp/etc.
[09:18] <JaneW> interfaces without blocking on ethernet which are handled by udev, but
[09:18] <JaneW> nothing serious
[09:18] <JaneW> streamlined-boot: underway, was waiting on Flight 2 and now that's out
[09:18] <JaneW> will be uploading bits over the next few days
[09:18] <JaneW> network-magic: various discussions, have a keen guy looking at the
[09:18] <JaneW> atheros issues for us
[09:19] <JaneW> krstic?
[09:19] <JaneW> lathiat?
[09:19] <JaneW> sivang?
[09:19] <JaneW> Mithrandir?
[09:19] <JaneW> anyone?
[09:19] <Mithrandir> openoffice-amd64: no changes
[09:19] <Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: progress with the simplified live cd, as in, I have bootcharts and we can start chopping time off the boot by making changes such as unionfs vs devmapper, cloop vs squashfs, etc.
[09:19] <Mithrandir> one-true-path: no progress
[09:19] <Mithrandir> simplified-livecd: in place, working, released with flight 2.  Needs polish and cleanups as well as usplash integration
[09:19] <Mithrandir> media-integrity-check: no changes, but now unblocked.  Should be trivial
[09:20] <Mithrandir> network-authentication: no progress
[09:20] <Mithrandir> general: I've been working on the simplified live cd infrastructure.  It has come a long way and is pleasant to work with and easy to test.  Some pieces are still missing.
[09:20] <Mithrandir> next week: some vacation, but before that I'll look at getting simplified live finished up, and if that goes well, continue with media-integrity check and poke at the live-cd-performance stuff
[09:20] <iwj> Oh, Kamion says he'll be in this meeting.
[09:20] <Mithrandir> blocked on: nothing in particular, I have plenty of stuff to do until I get from VAC
[09:20] <iwj> I mean, in warthogs.
[09:20] <sivang> JaneW: hi, I'm here. been way busy at work, there hasn't been much changes since last time, I hope to be able to do some work on it on weekend time.
[09:20] <JaneW> Mithrandir: so your block is gone..?
[09:20] <Mithrandir> JaneW: yes.
[09:20] <JaneW> sivang: ok great, thanks
[09:20] <JaneW> Mithrandir: good.
[09:20] <Mithrandir> JaneW: at least, no blocks I'm aware of.
[09:21] <JaneW> ogra: you're next and sorry for missing yesterday's meeting - we must talk after this...
[09:21] <ogra> * thin-client-sound: 95% implemented, code submitted to mdz for review, spec corrected accordingly, awaiting approval
[09:21] <ogra> * thin-client-local-devices: no progress
[09:21] <ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: no progress
[09:21] <ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: fine on recent HW http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/dapper-20051212-1.png, spec changes awaiting approval
[09:21] <ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: pinged mark about images, no answer yet, will ping again :)
[09:21] <ogra> * general: X breakage on the thin clients turned out to be only trident needs stilla debug session, mdz's suggestions for thin client sound implemented, flight2 tested on amd64/i386, themeable ldm finished, approved and included, ltsp multiarch patch approved and in dapper, no progress on new edubuntu-artwork yet, no more hwdb-client work yet. inspect X autodetection on thin clients for possible speedups per mdz suggestion not done yet, only found
[09:21] <ogra>  that most of the preseed fixes we got from debian are not working at all. found that thin clients cant NFS mount anymore with the new dhcpd we ship due to a silly RFC (No. 2131) interpretation of the "siaddr" field by dhcpd upstream.
[09:21] <ogra> next weeks plans: nag mark more for gnome-screensaver-default-image space pics, implement thin-client-memory-usage (which will also fix the powerpc bug for ltsp), fix up edubuntu-artwork, find out if the preseeding X stuff is solvable and solve it for the options where possible, trident X debugging, hwdb-client bugfixing. find solution for upgrades of dhcpd.
[09:22] <daniels> which speedups?
[09:22] <ogra> daniels, X ?
[09:22] <daniels> x autodetection, yes
[09:22] <sivang> that shifting times thingy is killing me...
[09:22] <sivang> (of the meetings)
[09:22] <ogra> mdz wants to put the debconf communicate call into one call instead of 20
[09:22] <ogra> zhaz should speed up quite a bit
[09:22] <pitti> ogra: dhcpd upgrade breaks?
[09:23] <ogra> pitti, yes, for nfs mounted root filesystems
[09:23] <JaneW> ogra: no movement on spec approvals yet? Still waiting on mdz for reviews?
[09:23] <ogra> pitti, http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/DhcpdSiaddr
[09:23] <pitti> ogra: omg, dhcp disturbs nfs? that sounds scary
[09:24] <ogra> JaneW, mem usage is approved, sound is done ... but mdz had no time before holiday to review and faster startup needs minor changes
[09:24] <ogra> pitti, it is ... :/
[09:24] <ogra> JaneW, for local devices i still need mdz and sbalneav to get together
[09:24] <JaneW> ogra ok thanks.
[09:25] <JaneW> damn, has that not happened yet?!
[09:25] <ogra> nope
[09:25] <JaneW> ogra: the need is high, but it doesn't sem to be getting prioritized...
[09:25] <JaneW> *sigh*
[09:25] <JaneW> pitti: next
[09:25] <pitti> not much to say this week, but
[09:25] <pitti> this week: heaps of security updates, main inclusion reviews, and a few bits of package fixes, etc; no time to pursue specs
[09:25] <pitti> next week: get PHP security update done with Adam, catch up with my long neglected bug mail, try to debug printing stuff a little
[09:25] <pitti> automatic-printer-conf: PLAN: investigate hal-cups-utils from Fedora for exporting cups configuration to hal
[09:26] <ogra> JaneW, it it (and always was) a low/mid prio spec
[09:26] <ogra> *it is
[09:26] <pitti> however, there are some more security updates to do, so there won't be much spec work next week either
[09:27] <pitti> *grumble* ffmpeg *grumble*
[09:27] <seb128> pitti: hint for next week: avahi promotion :p
[09:27] <JaneW> pitti: ok thanks *pat pat*
[09:27] <JaneW> seb128: 
[09:27] <Riddell> ooh, yes please on avahi
[09:27] <seb128> hide-admin-tools-to-users: has been implemented previous week but the summary of the previous meeting has no mention of what I wrote on it, should I mention it again?
[09:27] <Kamion> d'oh, sorry I'm late, slept in
[09:27] <seb128> video-playback: gstreamer0.10 uploaded, gst-plugins-base0.10 almost ready: will be uploaded today, will continue on that next week
[09:27] <seb128> other: GNOME 2.13.3
[09:27] <seb128> next week: video-playback and dapper-desktop-plan
[09:27] <Kamion> I'll give my update at the end
[09:28] <pitti> yay gst 0.10
[09:28] <seb128> hi Kamion
[09:28] <pitti> Morning Kamion 
[09:28] <JaneW> Kamion: thought that was the case. np... we have continued ;)
[09:28] <pitti> JaneW: cool, gst 0.10 removes the gstreamer-audio-backend blocker
[09:28] <seb128> pitti: with gst0.10 you can read songs without gap when switching :)
[09:28] <JaneW> seb128: short and sweet...
[09:28] <JaneW> pitti: great
[09:29] <seb128> s/read/play/
[09:29] <JaneW> Riddell: ?
[09:29] <Riddell> last week: kdebindings, kdevelop packaging, xpdf security, simplify-kde, flight-2 testing, revu, finished merges, kubuntu-package-manager design discussions
[09:29] <Riddell> next week: kubuntu-system-tools, hide-admin-tools-to-users, kubuntu-documentation packaging, poking KDE MOTU into getting all KDE universe packages installable, investigate getting KDE to work with CUPS 1.2
[09:29] <dholbach> and the kubuntu hug day! :)
[09:29] <Riddell> dholbach: especially important
[09:29] <dholbach> .-)
[09:30] <pitti> eek, zombie smiley
[09:30] <JaneW> ok just mvo and kamion left ... and then merge nagging :P
[09:31] <mvo> did:
[09:31] <mvo> - AutomaticUpgrades: update-manager/python-apt with the required support is in the archive. The actual upgrade tool still needs more work
[09:31] <mvo> - AutomaticUpdates: integrated into the apt cron job, not yet upload (will do this today)
[09:31] <mvo> - ThirdPartyPackages: big cleanups in GnomeAppInstall, the code is really a mess. Initial support for channels is in (jbailey bzr is the example channel)
[09:31] <mvo> - some spec work about "PimpMyLanguageSelector" with jdub
[09:31] <mvo> - some cmd-not-found work, big problem: "alternatives", very hard to parse, but
[09:31] <mvo>   required to give useful results for e.g. emacs
[09:31] <mvo> - HideAdminTools/DapperDesktopPlan spec work for update-notifier
[09:31] <mvo> - DapperDesktopPlan work for notification-daemon
[09:31] <mvo> need opinion:
[09:31] <mvo> - should the "automatic security upgrades" stuff be backported to breezy (in a seperate repository) so that people can test it more easily? 
[09:31] <mvo> blocking:
[09:31] <mvo> - support for package recommends: waiting on mdz for a decision
[09:31] <mvo> will do:
[09:31] <mvo> - more work on gnome-app-install/ThirdPartyPackages spec
[09:31] <JaneW> now that's an update!
[09:32] <JaneW> thanks mvo: sme of your others have been hard to decode ;)
[09:32] <pitti> mvo: backported to a private archive on people?
[09:32] <mvo> pitti: yes
[09:32] <pitti> well, can't hurt in any way :)
[09:32] <dholbach> JaneW: mvo deserves a golden star now, right? :)
[09:32] <pitti> since there aren't security updates for dapper yet
[09:32] <mvo> the problem is that we have no dapper-security currently, so it's a bit hard to test it on dapper :)
[09:32] <pitti> at least not proper ones, just regular uploads
[09:33] <Kamion> I'd go for private archive for now and a post to ubuntu-users@
[09:33] <jbailey> With Soyuz will those be created at the start of the dev cycle?
[09:33] <jbailey> I suspect they probably ought to be to make testing things like this possible.
[09:33] <Kamion> jbailey: dapper-{security,updates} already exist *now*
[09:33] <Kamion> there's just nothing in them
[09:33] <JaneW> Riddell: any progress on getting your specs approved?
[09:33] <jbailey> Ah, okay.
[09:33] <infinity> Yes, the lack of packages in them makes it hard to test automatic upgrades. :)
[09:34] <Kamion> ue-gnome-ui: Discussed accessibility requirements with Henrik.
[09:34] <Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Was blocked for almost the entire week on the lack of a live CD. I have that now, but only as of yesterday, so just started on getting a reasonable test environment here.
[09:34] <jbailey> Quick!  Someone find a php hole! =)
[09:34] <Kamion> cd-bootloader: Lots of bootloader SHINY done in the form of gfxboot-theme-ubuntu; deployed in Flight CD 2. This is now implemented with the exception of keymap selection; that's blocked until I know what kind of input simplified-live-cd expects here. Some bugs reported but nothing major yet.
[09:34] <Kamion> misc: Flight CD 2 done, which took way too long. Helped Tollef out with casper/initramfs a bit, and eventually decided to switch to simplified-live-cd.
[09:34] <Kamion> blocked: There aren't enough hours in the day to do Flight CD 2 and real work.
[09:34] <infinity> jbailey : Fixing about 10 right now.
[09:34] <pitti> jbailey: I have heaps of them
[09:34] <Mithrandir> Kamion: simplified-live-cd will do with what I get ATM.. at least, I think so.
[09:35] <Kamion> Mithrandir: (I think passing kbd-chooser/method= as we would for d-i should be fine?)
[09:35] <Mithrandir> Kamion: yes
[09:35] <pitti> Kamion: just saw gfxboot today, shiny!
[09:35] <Kamion> ok
[09:35] <Riddell> JaneW: not really, kubuntu-express is pending review from Kamion, who is now on holiday.  kubuntu-package-manager bounty needs approval/decline from mdz who is also on holiday
[09:35] <Mithrandir> Kamion/pitti: I might want a little bit of hand-holding to generate locales correctly for live.
[09:35] <pitti> we urgently need a locales discussion
[09:35] <jbailey> Kamion: Is the flight-2 time stuff that all needed to be done anyway, or is there more that the rest of us need to do to avoid blocking you?
[09:35] <JaneW> Riddell: ok, hopefully we can get them sorted in early Jan then...?
[09:35] <pitti> with Kamion, jbailey, doko, and me
[09:35] <Kamion> Riddell: ah, I hadn't noticed kubuntu-express, will have a look at a free point
[09:36] <Kamion> jbailey: was mostly horribly blocked on the lack of a live CD
[09:36] <JaneW> ok let's talk merges http://tinyurl.com/dgvf2
[09:36] <Mithrandir> JaneW: just a sec
[09:37] <jbailey> pitti: Scheduled it for any afternoon for you guys and I'm easily there.
[09:37] <Kamion> jbailey: possibly a little more initiative somewhere could've been taken on getting that done, but I can't really complain because it was all stuck behind the new kernel nonsense for ages
[09:37] <Mithrandir> I'm wondering if we should have small freezes around the time when we try to get the live cd out, since we too often end up in situations where the live fs generation fails
[09:37] <Kamion> I would like to have more people randomly testing CD images, though
[09:37] <Kamion> as in, not just before release - as we discussed before
[09:37] <Mithrandir> which is _really_ annoying when we're trying to release a cd and busy fixing other stuff.
[09:38] <Kamion> casper changes now involve rebuilding the live filesystem, as of simplified-live-cd
[09:38] <dholbach> Kamion: i burned the whole bunch and will get some tests done today
[09:38] <daniels> Mithrandir: i think just saying 'don't upload shit that will break shit' and compelling everyone to comply via social means will be better than hard freezes
[09:38] <Kamion> dholbach: thanks
[09:38] <pitti> I tested today's live, will test today's install, too
[09:38] <Mithrandir> daniels: possibly, but we didn't even do that, which meant having random gnome packages uploaded broke the world underneath our feet.
[09:39] <Kamion> yes, hard freezes have the bad side-effect that once you start one everybody expects you to release something soon
[09:39] <daniels> Mithrandir: so try that?
[09:39] <Kamion> which might not be appropriate depending on how broken the result is
[09:39] <Kamion> and it really does impede everyone else's work a lot
[09:39] <Mithrandir> can we just try "soft freezes", then?
[09:40] <sivang> Kamion: we need to gather some more people around doing specifically that (testing cd images) , ideally from the community. I would have helped, but currently work stuff don't let me get to it.
[09:40] <jbailey> Kamion: I'd suggested it before but not seen any interest, but I think maybe an "installfest day" once a month like dholbach does with the bug days might be effective?
[09:40] <Kamion> I would like it if people uploading packages could try to arrange that those uploads will break as little as possible if they're built on only some architectures
[09:40] <jbailey> Kamion: Then you know you could set aside that day knowing that you'll mostly be collecting bug reports and triaging errors, etc.
[09:40] <pitti> especially not pull in new packages from universe
[09:40] <Kamion> jbailey: I strongly think it needs to be spread out, not concentrated; we already have installfests just before releases
[09:40] <dholbach> jbailey: i will work more on the testing plan and try to announce it big
[09:40] <jbailey> Kamion: I was thinking like monthly.
[09:41] <Kamion> jbailey: the problem we have is that we don't find out about problems often enough
[09:41] <daniels> (or just ask kamion if you have world-endingly breaking stuff to upload.  i was about to upload 169 packages right as he was trying to release flight 2.)
[09:41] <dholbach> i thought about enumerating the "topics" in the testplan, so people could refer to them in bugs and we could better keep track of those numbers
[09:41] <jbailey> Kamion: For me alot of the time it just doesn't occur to me to test the CD mid-release.  There's always other tasks that have to be done.
[09:41] <Kamion> jbailey: I don't want to arrange that I only find out about problems blocking my (supposedly) two-weekly CD releases on a monthly basis. :-)
[09:41] <seb128> Mithrandir: when there is a new GNOME every 2 weeks and it take 3 days to package we can't really say "wait a few days before uploading it may break something"
[09:41] <Kamion> seb128: if it didn't break so badly when i386 builds but powerpc is lagging a bit, that would be lovely
[09:42] <Kamion> there are a lot of tight arch: all <-> any dependencies
[09:42] <Mithrandir> seb128: I care less about segfaults and application breakage than pure uninstallability.
[09:42] <ogra> JaneW, that bugzilla search is broken ....
[09:42] <infinity> seb128 : Uploading really wasn't a big deal, it was just horribly timed.  If someone had asked you to wait 4 hours, it would have been fine.  So, y'know, "oops". :)
[09:42] <seb128> Kamion: right, but I consider that an archive bug ...
[09:42] <dholbach> ogra: i did it, what's wrong?
[09:42] <ogra> JaneW, or MOM is ...
[09:42] <Kamion> oh, for goodness' sake, I guess we'll never get anything done then
[09:42] <seb128> infinity: I'm fine to wait 4 hours if somebody say so, it's just not easy to guess ;)
[09:42] <dholbach> Kamion: what do you mean?
[09:42] <dholbach> haha :)
[09:43] <doko> seb128: no, that's packaging, which you can work around
[09:43] <elmo> seb128: dude, be realistic, the archive has been like that since Debian started
[09:43] <ogra> dholbach, there are merges that are no merges (i.e. we have newer versions, see kino) 
[09:43] <infinity> seb128 : The next time we seem to be on a "we want installable livefs's" warpath, I'll be sure to try to warn you.
[09:43] <seb128> infinity: thanks
[09:43] <elmo> seb128: it might be nice if the archive didn't work that way, but it doesn't, and it's not ging to get fixed anytime soon
[09:43] <dholbach> ogra: talk to mom :)
[09:43] <JaneW> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=UPSTREAM&bug_status=PENDINGUPLOAD&field0-0-0=product&type0-0-0=substring&value0-0-0=merging&field0-0-1=component&type0-0-1=substring&value0-0-1=merging&field0-0-2=short_desc&type0-0-2=substring&value0-0-2=merging&field0-0-3=status_whiteboard&type0-0-3=substring&value0-0-3=merging&order=
[09:43] <JaneW> map_assigned_to.login_name,bugs.resolution
[09:43] <elmo> (err, s/doesn't/does/)
[09:43] <ogra> dholbach, i do :)
[09:43] <seb128> elmo: yeah, but changing the whole GNOME to not do that is not trivial neither
[09:44] <Mithrandir> I think we should move on to merges now..
[09:44] <pitti> JaneW: are we supposed to catch up with the new merges? that's an awful lot of work at the current time
[09:44] <doko> pitti: and the list is incomplete
[09:44] <seb128> I thought merges were low priority for now?
[09:44] <Kamion> I didn't expect us to be prioritising merges right now, no
[09:44] <seb128> and we had to catch up again before freeze
[09:45] <pitti> ok, *phew*
[09:45] <seb128> s/had/will have/ rather :)
[09:45] <pitti> I thought that had changed, since JaneW wants to nag about it :)
[09:45] <Kamion> UVF isn't until 19th January
[09:45] <JaneW> ok so are all the old ones done then?
[09:45] <jbailey> Ugh, only 1month to UVF?
[09:45] <Kamion> not all, but most of them are
[09:46] <ajmitch> are the merge bugs with assignee as debzilla free to take?
[09:46] <seb128> they were previous week before starting the automatic bugs again no?
[09:46] <Kamion> I count nine old ones
[09:46] <doko> Kamion: we still haven't merged all packages at least once, the ones with differing tarballs in unstable/dapper are missing. is it too late to touch these just before UVF?
[09:46] <Kamion> ajmitch: yes
[09:46] <ajmitch> (within reason)
[09:46] <ogra> mdz said explicitly that merge bugs should be set to P5 prio 
[09:46] <ajmitch> ok
[09:46] <Kamion> doko: Scott said there was a whole *one* of those that MOM hadn't reported
[09:46] <ogra> so i didnt expect to prioritize them now 
[09:46] <doko> Kamion: oh, I didn't know that
[09:46] <Kamion> so that issue doesn't concern me at the moment
[09:46] <pitti> ogra: new merge bugs only, not the old ones
[09:46] <Kamion> doko: he said it to you :-)
[09:47] <ogra> and MOM filed bugs for packages that are never in ubuntu ...
[09:47] <ogra> *newer 
[09:47] <Kamion> everyone, please do check for merge bugs with bugzilla ids less than 20000
[09:47] <ogra> (see my comment about kino)
[09:47] <dholbach> ogra: it'S about merging, not about newer stuff
[09:48] <Kamion> those are the old ones: Riddell has 1, infinity 3, doko 2, pitti 1, jbailey 1, fabbione 1
[09:48] <ogra> dholbach, there isnt anything to merge ... it should sort out the 0 byte patches ... i guess there are more
[09:48] <Kamion> I realise they're all the really hard ones
[09:48] <pitti> cdrtools is still broken
[09:48] <pitti> I won't upload it
[09:48] <Kamion> pitti: hmm?
[09:48] <jbailey> Kamion: glibc is intentionally delayed (per status report)
[09:48] <pitti> blocked: new upstream version does not work as normal user
[09:48] <pitti> ^ status whiteboard
[09:48] <Kamion> pitti: is that still true as of the most recent Debian upload?
[09:49] <dholbach> ogra: then merge the changelog, or sync if there's nothing to be changed
[09:49] <pitti> Kamion: I didn't test it in the last week, I'll do again
[09:49] <ogra> dholbach, ??
[09:49] <Kamion> the last one dates from 2005-12-04
[09:49] <ogra> dholbach, what should i sync with a 0 byte merge patch ? 
[09:49] <dholbach> ogra: merge manually?
[09:50] <infinity> Kamion : Mine are all intentionally delayed, as reported last week.
[09:50] <ogra> dholbach, 0 == zero byte, there is not even a changelog entry to merge ...
[09:50] <pitti> Kamion: the changelog doesn't seem to indicate any fixes in that direction, but I'll try
[09:50] <infinity> Kamion : Though I could merge Thunderbird just to shut up MOM while I work on 1.5
[09:50] <doko> Kamion: gjdoc: sync requested
[09:50] <Kamion> and fabbione's is still blocked behind i386 biarch I believe
[09:51] <dholbach> ogra: you don't need to teach me, what 0 means - there were changes in debian - i looked at it a while ago
[09:51] <Kamion> ok, any other business?
[09:52] <JaneW> no additional meetings were requested
[09:52] <JaneW> does anybody need to list a required discussion?
[09:52] <pitti> we need the locales discisson
[09:52] <pitti> but that can be informal
[09:52] <pitti> we just need to settle a time
[09:52] <jbailey> pitti: Need to pick a time for it, though.
[09:52] <daniels> would X breakage next week be a particular problem to anyone?
[09:52] <JaneW> should I note it?
[09:52] <Kamion> I'm off these two days, and next Wed/Thu/Fri; is everybody involved around on Monday?
[09:53] <pitti> jbailey, Kamion, doko: would this afternoon be fine for you?
[09:53] <daniels> not code breakage, just as I attempt to reshuffle the configuration madness into something that isn't shit
[09:53] <Kamion> oh, Mithrandir isn't IIRC
[09:53] <seb128> daniels: I prefer having a working X to get GNOME work done, but that's just me :)
[09:53] <Kamion> pitti: no, I'll be out of the house
[09:53] <pitti> Kamion: Monday would work for me
[09:53] <pitti> jbailey, doko: Monday 1500 UTC?
[09:53] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'm around on Monday, yes.
[09:53] <doko> pitti: Monday is ok
[09:53] <daniels> seb128: that wasn't a general question, that was more a 'is there anything specific next week that means I should wait for a week or so'
[09:53] <pitti> great
[09:53] <Kamion> ok by me
[09:53] <jbailey> pitti: FIne for me.
[09:53] <pitti> cool
[09:53] <JaneW> who all is it Kamion, pitti, doko?
[09:53] <seb128> daniels: oh k, not afaik so :)
[09:53] <JaneW> and Mithrandir
[09:53] <pitti> JaneW: yes
[09:54] <Kamion> JaneW: and jbailey
[09:54] <mvo> pitti: does it touch language-selector?
[09:54] <pitti> mvo: *could*, not sure
[09:54] <pitti> mvo: wanna join?
[09:54] <ogra> dholbach, so i should make a changelog entry that reads "nothing merged" and upload a new ubuntu version? what for ?
[09:54] <mvo> might be a good idea if it does, yeah :)
[09:54] <pitti> seb128: hm, I can't add anything to my evo calendar
[09:55] <pitti> mvo: is 1500UTC on monday fine for you?
[09:55] <mvo> yes
[09:55] <jbailey> pitti: Make sure you have the right calendar selected.
[09:55] <Kamion> daniels: next week's not too bad; I *was* thinking of a very quick CD release next week in case live CD issues in Flight 2 need fixed up before the holidays
[09:55] <seb128> pitti: I can't even switch to the calendar tab
[09:55] <jbailey> pitti: It's sometimes non-obvious.
[09:55] <Kamion> but that will be early next week by necessity (vacation time and all), if it happens at all
[09:55] <ogra> dholbach, sorry, but i dont get what you want ...
[09:55] <pitti> jbailey: no, my evo freezes right after starting it
[09:55] <infinity> Kamion : If you end up on the LiveCD warpath again next week, warn me.
[09:56] <Kamion> will do
[09:56] <Mithrandir> Kamion: flight 2.1 on Monday or Tuesday would be nice.
[09:56] <jbailey> pitti: Smacking me around isn't like to get me to help you fix it, my friend. =)
[09:56] <Kamion> I might just delegate it :-)
[09:56] <Mithrandir> since I'm hoping we can have language selection and such in there
[09:56] <pitti> jbailey: heh, sorry, that was meant for evo upstream :)
[09:56] <infinity> Uh oh.
[09:56] <infinity> Kamion : The word "delegate" scares me, when I know how many people in the cdimage group aren't on vacation... :)
[09:56] <Kamion> So it should. ;-)
[09:57] <infinity> Kamion : Unless you meant you were delegating to Riddell. :P
[09:57] <seb128> pitti: I'm supposed to get a patch to try within an hour
[09:57] <pitti> seb128: <3
[09:57] <seb128> pitti: and the "within an hour" is from half and hour ago
[09:57] <Riddell> I'm not in cdimage group yet as far as I know
[09:57] <infinity> Riddell : Dang.
[09:57] <Riddell> oh, actually maybe I am
[09:57] <Kamion> uid=2552(jriddell) gid=2500(warthogs) groups=2500(warthogs),2504(cdimage),2511(porting_team)
[09:57] <Kamion> are so
[09:58] <infinity> Ah-ha!
[09:58] <JaneW> ok me goes to update report...
[09:58] <JaneW> Kamion: go 'home' ;)
[09:58] <pitti> thanks guys
[09:58] <Kamion> JaneW: thanks for chairing; I *did* set my alarm to 7:30, honest ... I think my body knows it's on vacation.
[09:59] <jbailey> "Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye."
[09:59] <Kamion> thanks everyone, have a great holiday
[09:59] <pitti> Kamion: enjoy your holidays, have a merry christmas
[09:59] <Kamion> Spend some time *away* from the computer (and that's me talking). :-)
[09:59] <JaneW> Kamion: it's ok really. relax and take a break - you deserve it!
[09:59] <ogra> haha
[10:00] <pitti> must ... fix ... bugs *nng*
[10:00] <mvo> have fun Kamion 
[10:01] <ogra> Kamion, enjoy your holiday and thanks again for the liveCDs :)
[10:01] <daniels> Kamion: okay.  upgrades would probably be the issue rather than fresh installs.
[10:01] <Kamion> elmo: incidentally, taking alex out of the cdimage group might be nice for my nerves
[10:02] <Kamion> I keep seeing it and going "WTF?"
[10:03] <dholbach> sorry, got a phone call about linuxdays.lu
[06:58] <dholbach> hello everyone?
[06:58] <seb128> ho dholbach
[06:58] <dholbach> 'lu :)
[06:58] <seb128> hi
[06:58] <seb128> salut :)
[06:58] <dholbach> or was it 19:00 utc
[06:59] <dholbach> siretart: ping
[06:59] <dholbach> slomo_: ping
[06:59] <LaserJock> hi dholbach 
[06:59] <dholbach> hi LaserJock
[07:01] <slomo_> dholbach: 19:00 UTC... in 1 hour ;)
[07:01] <\sh> 19 utc means 20 :)
[07:01] <JohnnyMast> ellow
[07:02] <dholbach> i see
[07:02] <\sh> motu meeting or motu media meeting?
[07:02] <dholbach> media and then motu
[07:02] <LaserJock> hmm, an hour ago fridge.u.c said and hour and now it says 58 min.
[07:02] <slomo_> media is 19:00, motu 20:00
[07:03] <JohnnyMast> MOTU Meeting
[07:03] <JohnnyMast> Start: 2005-12-15 19:00
[07:03] <JohnnyMast> End: 2005-12-15 20:00
[07:03] <siretart> hey
[07:03] <JohnnyMast> the other way around
[07:03] <\sh> Timezone: Etc/GMT
[07:03] <siretart> yeah, media meeting was scheduled 1900 utc
[07:05] <seb128> like motu one?
[07:13] <siretart> There is some confusion
[07:13] <siretart> I announced a Media Meeting at 1900 utc
[07:14] <siretart> and I put MOTUMeeting in the subject line, which is confusing. 
[07:14] <dholbach> i wonder who had the idea of 20:00 utc then
[07:14] <dholbach> :)
[07:14] <siretart> dholbach: perhaps some german, who mixed utc and local time ;)
[07:15] <dholbach> yeah, maybe ;)
[07:15] <dholbach> it wasn't me
[07:15] <siretart> lol
[07:15] <rbelem> hello people :)
[07:15] <slomo_> hi rbelem :)
[07:16] <rbelem> hey slomo_ how r u?
[07:18] <slomo_> rbelem: tired... but otherwise ok :) and you?
[07:19] <\sh> so it's only media meeting?
[07:21] <rbelem> slomo_: fine... but without time these days to stay online... many free-lance jobs ;-)
[07:23] <rbelem> slomo_: will we discuss about audio and video editing tools too?
[07:24] <slomo_> rbelem: whatever is important... sure... feel free to add it to the agenda :) but actually i don't know what to discuss there... what did you have in mind?
[07:35] <rbelem> slomo_: hum... i do not know very well too 
[07:36] <seb128> dholbach: motu meeting is a 20:00 european time according to the fridge webcal, ie: same time as the media one
[07:37] <slomo_> rbelem: ok ;)
[07:37] <rbelem> slomo_: maybe list all these software in wiki, and software that might be added
[07:39] <slomo_> rbelem: hm, there's nothing to discuss imho :) just add it to universe candidates or package it yourself ;)
[07:39] <rbelem> :)
[07:57] <sistpoty> hi folks
[07:58] <Nafallo> morning sistpoty 
[07:58] <JohnnyMast> hi sistpoty
[07:58] <slomo_> hi sistpoty :)
[07:58] <sistpoty> hi Nafallo, JohnnyMast, slomo_
[07:59] <JohnnyMast> :)
[07:59] <JohnnyMast> /massreply
[07:59] <Nafallo> hm
[07:59] <sistpoty> hehe
[07:59] <Nafallo> so now that you said hi to me twice I have to say hi again? :-)
[07:59] <JohnnyMast> no 1 min remaing
[07:59] <dholbach> hope we won't have annoyed to many crazy motu people :)
[07:59] <JohnnyMast> :p
[08:00] <sistpoty> erm, dholbach: maybe we could discuss two more items you and siretart sent to the ml?
[08:00] <dholbach> sistpoty: sure... there should be an agenda somewhere
[08:00] <dholbach> ... hum ...
[08:00] <sistpoty> last time i checked, it was the old agenda on MOTUMeeting
[08:01] <dholbach> no, it was some *Media* page afaik
[08:01] <siretart> hey folks!
[08:01] <sistpoty> hi siretart
[08:01] <siretart> huhu sistpoty 
[08:01] <slomo_> ok, hi everybody :)
[08:01] <slomo_> dholbach: this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMedia/MeetingInvitation  ?
[08:01] <siretart> I think think we can begin, 
[08:01] <Nafallo> hi slomo_, siretart :-)
[08:02] <siretart> ok
[08:02] <slomo_> when someone has some last minute ideas for the "agenda" feel free to add it _now_ to the wikipage above ;)
[08:03] <siretart> I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the MOTUMedia team
[08:03] <sistpoty> slomo_: looks like it... do we also want to discuss 1) open motu day (dholbach) and 2) universecandidates vs. support tickets (siretart iirc)?
[08:03] <siretart> currently, I think slomo and me are the only active ones
[08:03] <siretart> and crimsun of course
[08:03] <dholbach> sistpoty: errr, this is more of a media meeting
[08:03] <siretart> we want to improve the general situation of mutlimedia support in dapper
[08:03] <sistpoty> dholbach: ah, k.
[08:03] <dholbach> sistpoty: there was some confusion around the mail title
[08:03] <siretart> and this meeting is some sort of big call for help
[08:03] <dholbach> sorry for that
[08:04] <siretart> we have summarized our current biggest problem on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMedia/MeetingInvitation
[08:04] <siretart> lets start with the first point
[08:04] <siretart> slomo did an really awesome job and repackaged the mplayer package completly!
[08:04] <siretart> ROCK!
[08:04] <dholbach> :)
[08:04] <slomo_> sistpoty: maybe it can be done afterwards... we'll see :)
[08:04] <siretart> *applause*
[08:05] <raphink> oooh I'm late
[08:05] <raphink> :s
[08:05] <sistpoty> good work, slomo_!
[08:05] <siretart> one important change was to separate mplayer-skins package
[08:05] <siretart> which I uploaded a few days ago
[08:05] <siretart> the problem with the package: elmo rejected my first upload
[08:05] <slomo_> before we had exactly one skin shipping with the mplayer package
[08:06] <Nafallo> Blue :-)
[08:06] <siretart> because most of the skins (including the one we had!!) had no sufficient licence statement
[08:06] <siretart> the current mplayer-skins package has only 2 skins
[08:06] <siretart> which are both gpl
[08:06] <siretart> we urgently need more and better skins for mplayer
[08:07] <siretart> if somebody sees a better and properly licenced skin, please add it to the mplayer-skins package!
[08:07] <Nafallo> don't we have an artwork-team? :-)
[08:07] <siretart> Nafallo: I'm not sure if they are active
[08:07] <dholbach> Nafallo: good point :)
[08:07] <siretart> does anyone know about the status of the artwork team?
[08:07] <lllmanulll> Well,
[08:07] <slomo_> or if someone has some arts skills feel free to create your own one for inclusion in the mplayer-skins package :)
[08:07] <lllmanulll> I'm part of it
[08:07] <siretart> do we have by chance a member of the artwork team here?
[08:07] <siretart> ah hi lllmanulll!
[08:07] <lllmanulll> And I'll be happy to contribute, but my opinion is that we need good leadership
[08:08] <siretart> lllmanulll: do you think the artwork-team could help us with this problem?
[08:08] <Nafallo> we could always send a mail to ubuntu-art@l.u.c :-)
[08:08] <lllmanulll> Well, the best way is to send an email to the list with the request :)
[08:08] <lllmanulll> If the art team is given a precise, short-term goal, I'm sure a few people will give it a try
[08:09] <siretart> ok
[08:09] <lllmanulll> Might not be masterpieces, but we can always try :)
[08:09] <slomo_> well... it wouldn't be really precise... we just need a cool looking skin, no matter what style it is :)
[08:09] <siretart> lllmanulll: could you draft such a mail? I'll happily review and send it, if you don't mind
[08:09] <lllmanulll> Yeah, "a cool skin for mplayer" is already precise enough
[08:09] <lllmanulll> sure
[08:10] <siretart> ok. thank you lllmanulll 
[08:10] <siretart> just draft it on the wiki and hand me the link to it
[08:10] <ajmitch> hi
[08:10] <lllmanulll> ok, no problem
[08:10] <siretart> other suggestions to mplayer-skins?
[08:10] <dholbach> hey andrew
[08:10] <siretart> hi ajmitch 
[08:10] <sistpoty> hi ajmitch
[08:10] <Nafallo> morning ajmitch 
[08:10] <siretart> none?
[08:10] <raphink> hi ajmitch 
[08:11] <siretart> ok, then lets proceed to our Multimedia Testplans
[08:11] <dholbach> yeah!
[08:11] <slomo_> ok, the multimedia test plan... we need to get some testing procedures decided for dapper to prevent regressions and be aware of what stuff is working and what isn't working... first of all we need good and free sample content... as different in formats and settings as possible
[08:11] <dholbach> jdub is working on example-content package
[08:11] <dholbach> we should try to help him as good as we can
[08:11] <Nafallo> slomo use to send me non-free stuff to try and play ;-)
[08:12] <dholbach> provide him with links of stuff we *can* ship in such a package
[08:12] <dholbach> nice streams are cool for the test plan too
[08:12] <slomo_> sure, that's what i planned to say next :)
[08:12] <Nafallo> magnatune is nice :-)
[08:12] <sistpoty> how many different stuff could be made just by the capabilities of mencoder itself?
[08:12] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Media has some ideas on the testing
[08:12] <dholbach> it was a *very* quick draft :)
[08:12] <slomo_> but first of all we need to list everything possible and decide which parts are ok to be taken :)
[08:13] <dholbach> so if you have an idea, what we should test there as well, that'd be great
[08:13] <slomo_> sistpoty: many... but some formats are not supported yet (sorry, no list yet)
[08:13] <siretart> dholbach: yeah. to proposal here is to make a list of codecs we want to support
[08:13] <McFergus> are you going to use the new gstreamer ?
[08:13] <dholbach> so we can integrate it into the normal test plans
[08:13] <siretart> dholbach: as well as a checklist, how to test if the codec/the media file actually works in our supported players
[08:13] <dholbach> McFergus: we'll test what is available
[08:13] <siretart> dholbach: and what player do we want tested
[08:13] <siretart> this is what I want to discuss now
[08:13] <dholbach> i kept the test plans generic
[08:14] <dholbach> so kubuntu, ubuntu, xubuntu, ... can use them all alike
[08:14] <siretart> the obvious ones are totem-gstreamer and xine
[08:14] <siretart> do we want to have mplayer tested as well?
[08:14] <dholbach> *nod*
[08:14] <siretart> and what player did I miss?
[08:14] <dholbach> hmm
[08:14] <dholbach> vlc
[08:14] <dholbach> the one that never let me down ;)
[08:14] <McFergus> amarok ?
[08:14] <slomo_> yes, these 4 are probably enough... even less could be ok
[08:14] <slomo_> amarok uses xine or gst afaik... but i could be wrong ;)
[08:15] <dholbach> most important is what we have in main
[08:15] <siretart> McFergus: I never tried amarok, but isn't it a music only player?
[08:15] <Nafallo> amarok, rhythmbox, muine, banshee etc...? :-)
[08:15] <dholbach> what we officially support
[08:15] <sistpoty> xmms
[08:15] <siretart> ok
[08:15] <raphink> amarok uses xine, artds and gstreamer 
[08:15] <Nafallo> gst and xine stuff is whatever player I guess...
[08:16] <raphink> s/artds/artsd/
[08:16] <siretart> raphink: so we don't need to test amarock and kde players, because they are caught by xine
[08:16] <siretart> right?
[08:16] <dholbach> which are the tests we want our users to do? are there different ways to get players crashed? :)
[08:16] <raphink> siretart: amarok is a music only yes, but it does much more than usual music-only players
[08:16] <Riddell> siretart: they use gstreamer not xine by default
[08:16] <raphink> and kaffeine is xine/gstreamer aswell
[08:17] <slomo_> dholbach: i would say... throw as many different streams/files in the player and report what breaks and why... and if it worked before ;)
[08:17] <siretart> dholbach: I'd propose to have compile list of media files, which have to be downloaded and tested
[08:17] <slomo_> but for that the sample content is needed
[08:17] <siretart> s/have compile/compile/
[08:17] <siretart> right
[08:17] <siretart> but we need to tell the sample content guys which codecs and which media files we actually want to have tested
[08:17] <siretart> and we need to actually collect and fetch those files
[08:17] <dholbach> siretart: s/guys/jdub/ :)
[08:18] <dholbach> maybe we should list suggestions on a wiki page?
[08:18] <dholbach> links to those files?
[08:18] <siretart> dholbach: well, we cannot tell him 'please include all available codecs in sample content - kthnxbye'
[08:18] <slomo_> definitely, yes
[08:18] <dholbach> suggestions :)
[08:18] <dholbach> he will picky himself :)
[08:19] <siretart> dholbach: I think we should delegate this to a team of perhaps 2 or 3 ppl
[08:19] <siretart> this delegation would be to compile a list of media files listing codecs and media players which we want to be tested
[08:19] <dholbach> it's easier, if everybody adds something
[08:19] <slomo_> dholbach: i would say that we put important stuff (i.e. theora, vorbis, ...) in the sample content package but have a central package listing many more files
[08:19] <dholbach> and the probability of getting things done ;)
[08:19] <siretart> dholbach: right, everyone is invited to contribute to that list
[08:19] <dholbach> right
[08:20] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExampleContent
[08:20] <dholbach> that's the spec
[08:20] <siretart> Riddell: what media player engine does KDE use by default if not xine?
[08:20] <dholbach> it lists some crazy stuff already
[08:20] <Riddell> siretart: gstreamer
[08:20] <siretart> sorry, I don't know much about kde :(
[08:20] <siretart> Riddell: ah, so we don't need specific KDE tests, right?
[08:20] <Riddell> well KDE uses arts, kaffeine and amarok use gstreamer
[08:20] <siretart> if it works in totem-gstreamer, it must work in KDE too, right?
[08:21] <Riddell> siretart: in theory yes
[08:21] <dholbach> hihi :)
[08:21] <siretart> :)
[08:21] <siretart> ok. 
[08:21] <dholbach> s
[08:21] <slomo_> ok, then let's handle players with the same backend like they're the same ;)
[08:21] <slomo_> for content tests
[08:21] <siretart> so does someone volunteer to compile these lists?
[08:21] <dholbach> maybe we should track the state of players
[08:21] <sistpoty> wasn't there noatun for a long time? is it still there?
[08:22] <siretart> (this basically means to prepare a wiki page and start with a few sample entries)
[08:22] <slomo_> dholbach: maybe a table... content x player?
[08:22] <siretart> yeah, I was also imagining a table
[08:22] <dholbach> slomo_: yeah and version
[08:22] <siretart> version?
[08:22] <dholbach> slomo_: so we see, if things explode
[08:22] <dholbach> regression
[08:22] <dholbach> s
[08:22] <dholbach> stuff that used to work :)
[08:23] <siretart> ah, version of player
[08:23] <slomo_> dholbach: hmm, a 3-dimensional table would be hard ;)
[08:23] <raphink> how would you do that in a 2D table dholbach ?
[08:23] <siretart> well, that would a link to malone bugs then
[08:23] <siretart> so, nobody volunteers to start these pages?
[08:23] <slomo_> what about adding a date when something breaks? last date when it works and date when it was found to be broken?
[08:23] <raphink> anybody wants to implement a table in openGL ,
[08:23] <raphink> ?
[08:23] <dholbach> slomo_, raphink: data redundance :)
[08:23] <raphink> ;)
[08:23] <siretart> raphink: I don't think so ;)
[08:23] <raphink> dholbach: ok ;)
[08:24] <siretart> ok. I will do that then
[08:24] <siretart> further comments to this topic?
[08:24] <dholbach> siretart: which opengl chart are you implementing atm?
[08:24] <slomo_> thanks siretart :) when you need help just ask me
[08:24] <siretart> dholbach: no, I was talking about wiki pages
[08:24] <dholbach> yeah, which one?
[08:24] <siretart> dholbach: the player x content/codec table
[08:24] <dholbach> cool
[08:25] <siretart> any further questions or suggestions?
[08:25] <dholbach> so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Media is ok for you all? i can add it to the normal test plans?
[08:25] <slomo_> and we should decide about what needs to be put in there when something breaks... just a "broken" with link to malone?
[08:25] <slomo_> dholbach: fine with me
[08:26] <siretart> dholbach: I think this should preferably go with test plans, but it also touches example content
[08:26] <dholbach> slomo_: i think it should suffice to say "broken since 1.5.6-6ubuntu23 ([link to bug] )
[08:26] <dholbach> siretart: there would be instructions on how to obtain the example content package
[08:26] <siretart> dholbach: but we from the motumedia team want to do some QA to ensure that we don't miss important codecs for dapper
[08:26] <siretart> dholbach: I understand they would be uploaded to the archive?
[08:26] <dholbach> yes
[08:27] <siretart> so they would be in dapper anyways, what part did I miss?
[08:27] <dholbach> siretart: if we take our case to jdub, i'm sure he'll be happy to see our points
[08:27] <slomo_> we can't include everything in the example contents package
[08:27] <slomo_> that would be just too much
[08:27] <dholbach> if we have links to random stuff on a wiki page, that'd be nice too (especially streams)
[08:27] <siretart> slomo_: I think we should discuss this point when we actually have some sample content
[08:28] <slomo_> siretart: ok
[08:28] <sistpoty> MOTURadio :)
[08:28] <siretart> lol
[08:28] <dholbach> yeah!
[08:28] <siretart> but good point
[08:28] <slomo_> hehe
[08:28] <siretart> streaming should be tested too, will add that to the list
[08:28] <siretart> ok. further questions/suggestions?
[08:29] <siretart> ok
[08:29] <dholbach> apart from doing testing, what as a team do we want to achive?
[08:29] <slomo_> and we should add a note that when someone finds something that doesn't play it should be added to malone without fear ;)
[08:29] <dholbach> we want more people, we want better support for crazy players, what else?
[08:29] <dholbach> bug upstream guys, keep track of those bugs :)
[08:29] <dholbach> slomo_: ++
[08:30] <slomo_> hmm, allow playing of everything legally possible ;)
[08:30] <JohnnyMast> add a cert rss into malone 
[08:30] <raphink> :)
[08:30] <JohnnyMast> with an option to sync it to malone 
[08:30] <siretart> dholbach: we want to improve the multimedia experience by both sample content and testplans
[08:31] <siretart> I think thats enough work for the motumedia team
[08:31] <dholbach> sure
[08:31] <siretart> ok
[08:31] <siretart> lets talk about the next point, okay?
[08:31] <dholbach> i just wondered, how we'd appear to the rest of the world
[08:31] <dholbach> ok
[08:31] <dholbach> sorry
[08:31] <dholbach> yes
[08:32] <slomo_> and we want support for codecs we're currently missing... and maybe new media packages we "need"...
[08:32] <siretart> the next points are to discuss which codecs we are actually talking about
[08:32] <slomo_> but that's probably something for universe candidates
[08:32] <dholbach> slomo_: that'll be your job ;)
[08:32] <siretart> I'd really like to have some list of the most common codecs, which are supported in main, which in universe and which in multiverse
[08:33] <siretart> and we have to differentiate between encoding and decoding only
[08:33] <dholbach> maybe slomo_ should tell us about good, bad and ugly
[08:33] <dholbach> :)
[08:33] <slomo_> i could start this list at the weekend
[08:33] <siretart> it doesn't need to be a list containing every existing codec we may or may not support, the most common ones are okay
[08:34] <siretart> so this is a call for help, too. Please help us to compile those lists and ask folks who actually have a clue
[08:34] <siretart> slomo_: that would be great
[08:34] <siretart> slomo_: a wiki page containing a table as a start would be a really great start
[08:34] <slomo_> but i would add everything, not just the most common ones
[08:34] <Nafallo> yea, I was thinking about that good, bad, ugly. hasn't gstreamer already done the job for us or did I miss something? ;-)
[08:34] <slomo_> and even stuff we don't support currently
[08:35] <siretart> Nafallo: do you have a link?
[08:35] <siretart> or does anyone here has some relevant information which could help us compiling such a list?
[08:35] <Nafallo> siretart: planet.gnome.org is where I got info about it :-)
[08:35] <slomo_> Nafallo: partially, yes... but bad are just broken plugins ;) and ugly contains stuff that also could be in main
[08:35] <Nafallo> damn :-P
[08:35] <sistpoty> relevant as in I know certain codecs/formats, but irrevelant as I don't exactly know about the goodness/badness of many of them
[08:36] <siretart> Nafallo: oh, I see. But browsing through past blog entries is,,, unconvienient at best ;)
[08:36] <raphink> would that be useful ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs
[08:36] <Nafallo> siretart: indeed :-)
[08:36] <slomo_> raphink: yes, sure... thanks :)
[08:36] <siretart> perhaps we should note in that compilation of codecs WHY which codec is in which part of the archive
[08:37] <Nafallo> we should let slomo handle this. he just had the transition with libxine :-P
[08:37] <dholbach> :)
[08:37] <slomo_> Nafallo: not yet... i hope to get it done at the weekend
[08:37] <siretart> I don't want to load slomo more than necessary. 
[08:37] <Nafallo> slomo_: even better then. remove codecs and note why on a wikipage ;-)
[08:37] <siretart> he has done a really awesome job on both mplayer and xine!
[08:38] <slomo_> siretart: yes, the reasoning would be nice too... a table listing codec, supported where, why... something i forget?
[08:38] <siretart> slomo_: I think thats enough. 
[08:38] <siretart> other comments?
[08:38] <slomo_> maybe a "working"-column?
[08:39] <dholbach> which licenses we have explain to whom? :)
[08:39] <siretart> slomo_: if it isn't working, mark it in the 'supported where' coloumn
[08:39] <raphink> dholbach: version of the licence and comment from RMS ?
[08:39] <siretart> supported where: nowhere
[08:39] <slomo_> dholbach: it's mostly not license related... it's just ugly patents ;)
[08:39] <dholbach> raphink: yeah, that'd be nice "Comments from RMS - collec them all!"
[08:40] <raphink> haha
[08:40] <siretart> dholbach: the most difficult issues are political and legal issues of companys threatening with patents
[08:40] <dholbach> yeah :(
[08:40] <dholbach> wow, we must have a 6-dimension table now... "MediaTEAM - taking you to the 6th dimension..."
[08:40] <raphink> evil patents 
[08:40] <siretart> dholbach: we cannot do much about them as MOTUs, we can just say 'its gpl, but we don't want to distribute them because we fear prosecution...'
[08:40] <slomo_> dholbach: well... 2 tables ;)
[08:41] <dholbach> slomo_: i know :)
[08:41] <siretart> dholbach: why 6 dimension table?
[08:41] <dholbach> because i was kidding and for the nice slogan's sake
[08:41] <dholbach> excuse me
[08:41] <ajmitch> heh
[08:41] <slomo_> let's name the "why" column legal assessment and note below that we're not lawyers
[08:41] <raphink> ;)
[08:41] <siretart> raphink: the wikipedia listing seems like a useful start. thanks!
[08:42] <raphink> wikipedia has nice lists :)
[08:42] <siretart> slomo_: I think to note 'patent encumbered' is enough
[08:43] <siretart> perhaps we should rather note if the codecs are problematic due to companys actively enforcing their patents or if they are not enforcing them
[08:43] <slomo_> siretart: everything is patent encumbered probably ;)
[08:43] <slomo_> yes, that's what i wanted to put in legal assessment
[08:43] <siretart> e.g. I think mp3 playing is relativly okay
[08:43] <raphink> even linux with end patent encumbered
[08:44] <raphink> s/with/will/
[08:44] <siretart> ah, okay, then we are having the same thought
[08:44] <slomo_> siretart: ok as in not distributable on CD
[08:44] <siretart> ok
[08:44] <dholbach> which wiki pages do we have now? i mean which names do they have?
[08:45] <slomo_> hm, and we should distinguish again encoding/decoding... we support for example decoding of alac but no encoding
[08:46] <siretart> this brings me another question
[08:46] <siretart> do we want to have encoding tested, too?
[08:46] <slomo_> dholbach: no idea yet :) what about Media/ListOfSupportedCodecs, Media/CodecState, ...?
[08:46] <siretart> or just decoding?
[08:46] <slomo_> encoding too, definitly
[08:46] <dholbach> slomo_: /Codecs /Status? :)
[08:46] <slomo_> what would we do if vorbis encoding breaks at some point and noone notices it ;)
[08:46] <Nafallo> hi crimsun :-)
[08:47] <slomo_> hi crimsun :)
[08:47] <crimsun> hi Nafallo, slomo_ 
[08:47] <raphink> hi crimsun 
[08:47] <crimsun> (& etc. ;-)
[08:47] <dholbach> :-)
[08:47] <slomo_> dholbach: Media/Codecs/{List,State}?
[08:47] <raphink> :)
[08:48] <slomo_> hmm, seems to be redundant somehow...
[08:48] <siretart> slomo_: puh. then the testplans needs to document how to actually do the encoding
[08:48] <dholbach> Media/Codecs, Media/State, Media/Team, Media/NewStuff, Media/P0rn^WLinks, Media/EmergencyPhoneNumbers
[08:49] <dholbach> siretart: if it's not a common use case, maybe that's something we should test for our owns, what do you think?
[08:49] <Nafallo> EmergencyPhoneNumbers? :-P
[08:49] <dholbach> Nafallo: if vorbis encoding breaks :)
[08:49] <ajmitch> hah
[08:50] <slomo_> siretart: let's make it low priority then... decoding is definitely more important
[08:50] <sistpoty> and I tried so hard not to write the p^WLinks word ;)
[08:50] <siretart> dholbach: would you know how to use transcode to encode something in vidx with ogg/vorbis audio?
[08:50] <dholbach> siretart: no
[08:50] <siretart> this is what I mean would be needed for the testplans
[08:50] <Nafallo> dholbach: we should be able to call sip:slomo@ubuntu.com soon, no? ;-)
[08:50] <dholbach> siretart: i only tried thoggen and flamed^Wtalked to slomo about it
[08:50] <slomo_> siretart: but we should list it in the table for reference... whoever wants to test it does it and we do it ourself otherwise
[08:51] <slomo_> dholbach: and i bugged upstream about it... but got no answer yet :(
[08:51] <siretart> slomo_: yes.
[08:51] <dholbach> thoggen, soundconverter, sound-juicer, istanbul are encoders, i know
[08:51] <siretart> slomo_: but lets not 'officially' make testing encoding a requirement
[08:51] <siretart> I don't think we have the manpower to do that
[08:51] <dholbach> siretart: ++
[08:51] <slomo_> siretart: yes, that's what i mean :)
[08:51] <siretart> ok
[08:52] <slomo_> dholbach: mencoder, transcode, gst-launch ;)
[08:52] <Nafallo> banshee is decoder/encoder? ;-)
[08:52] <Nafallo> food
[08:53] <siretart> ok. do we have any other business we need to discuss?
[08:53] <Nafallo> later :-)
[08:53] <siretart> cu Nafallo !
[08:53] <dholbach> see you Nafallo
[08:53] <sistpoty> cya Nafallo
[08:53] <ajmitch> work calls, bbl
[08:53] <raphink> bye Nafallo 
[08:53] <slomo_> we need to create a overview page probably :)
[08:53] <sistpoty> cya ajmitch
[08:53] <slomo_> bye ajmitch 
[08:53] <siretart> bye ajmitch 
[08:53] <dholbach> bye andrew
[08:53] <siretart> slomo_: overview page?
[08:53] <dholbach> slomo_: Media
[08:53] <dholbach> where we document, what the team does, who's in it
[08:53] <slomo_> yes... a page that lists all relevant media pages
[08:53] <dholbach> why we needs more people
[08:54] <dholbach> Media and Media/*
[08:54] <dholbach> and we remove all the other ones :)
[08:54] <siretart> do we want to introduce a wiki.ubuntu.com/Media/ hirarchy or can we take https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMedia/?
[08:54] <dholbach> there's MOTUMeida and Motumultimedia
[08:54] <crimsun> is it specific to MOTU, though?
[08:54] <dholbach> siretart: because stuff is in main, i suggest moving to Media
[08:54] <slomo_> leaving out MOTU seems to be a good idea probably... it's not MOTU specific
[08:54] <crimsun> right.
[08:54] <siretart> Motumultimedia?
[08:55] <slomo_> so just Media and Media/*
[08:55] <dholbach> yes, i saw it, searching for "Media"
[08:55] <dholbach> yeah
[08:55] <raphink> moltumedia ? :
[08:55] <siretart> dholbach: It is just a redirection to MOTUMedia ;)
[08:55] <dholbach> siretart: oh, right :)
[08:56] <slomo_> ok, so who wants to start the "main" page? :)
[08:56] <dholbach> i think the team will overlap with the desktopteam and the kubuntu team and the motu team, ... but i think that's fine
[08:56] <siretart> ok. Then who wants to create a framework/hierarchy Media/*?
[08:56] <siretart> (please not again slome or me ;)
[08:56] <dholbach> i'll start Media
[08:56] <slomo_> thanks daniel :)
[08:56] <siretart> thanks
[08:56] <dholbach> slomo_ volunteered to start the dummy tables
[08:57] <slomo_> dholbach: not dummy... mine will contain some useful content from the beginning... i hope ;)
[08:57] <dholbach> slomo_: sorry for insulting you, i didn't mean to ;)
[08:57] <siretart> ok. I think we are done with the agenda then
[08:57] <slomo_> dholbach: i didn't perceive it as such, don't worry *hug* :)
[08:58] <dholbach> i was kidding... nevermind me today ;)
[08:58] <dholbach> ok, so somebody else has to write the meeting minutes
[08:58] <siretart> There was some confusion that we'll have a MOTU Meeting after this meeting
[08:58] <raphink> can I drop a word about the queue on REVU?
[08:58] <siretart> which would be now (or in 2 minutes)
[08:58] <siretart> ah raphink wants to talk about revu
[08:58] <raphink> hmmm
[08:59] <sistpoty> hm... do we need a motumeeting now? or would it be better to schedule this at another time?
[08:59] <siretart> I'd suggest that we adjurn now the Media meeting and have a quick MOTU Meeting right now
[08:59] <slomo_> dholbach: will you notify me when the Media page is started? :)
[08:59] <raphink> well the queue on REVU is growing fast
[08:59] <dholbach> so who writes the "The newly instated Media Team decided that ..." mail?
[08:59] <dholbach> slomo_: you can start Media/Bla anyways now :)
[08:59] <dholbach> slomo_: but i'll do
[08:59] <siretart> dholbach: I'll try to write a summary about this meeting, okay?
[08:59] <dholbach> siretart: ROCK
[08:59] <dholbach> thanks a lot
[08:59] <slomo_> dholbach: oh, ok :)
[09:00] <slomo_> i have logged everything and could put the log up somewhere if needed
[09:00] <siretart> ok.
[09:00] <siretart> ok
[09:00] <siretart> lets talk about revu, then, okay?
[09:00] <sistpoty> raphink: your stage now ;)
[09:00] <dholbach> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ logs too
[09:00] <raphink> sistpoty: sure
[09:01] <raphink> well I surely haven't been using REVU for long so I don't know about its past
[09:01] <raphink> but the list of packages to review on REVU is growing very fast lately
[09:01] <raphink> and packages are hardly approved
[09:01] <raphink> REVU days were planned last weekend
[09:01] <raphink> but not a lot of reviews have been done
[09:01] <raphink> (I might be wrong on this)
[09:02] <raphink> talking with packagers, it seems the common opinion is that the web interface is not efficient enough 
[09:02] <raphink> yes you did quite a lot dholbach 
[09:02] <dholbach> i don't think it's a web interface problem
[09:02] <dholbach> i think it's more a problem of raising awareness of packages
[09:02] <raphink> dholbach: well very often new packages are reviewed first
[09:02] <dholbach> if somebody asks me to review something, then i find the time to do it
[09:03] <raphink> and packages that have already been approved once may wait weeks to be approved by another MOTU
[09:03] <raphink> although they're ready to go
[09:03] <siretart> i also think it rather a problem that motus are either not aware of the ongrowing list of packages or general overload of motus
[09:03] <slomo_> and we need more motus with kde knowledge...
[09:03] <siretart> jepp
[09:03] <dholbach> but see this usecase: somebody uploads a package, it takes 2 weeks until somebody looks, then it takes 2 weeks to get it updated again - imho that's a problem of communication
[09:03] <siretart> I had a look at skin before
[09:03] <sistpoty> hm... for the web interface, I guess that's my fault, because I still haven't written one more line of that revu2 code i promised to write until last week :(
[09:04] <crimsun> that seems to be a manpower issue, though
[09:04] <dholbach> crimsun: ++
[09:04] <raphink> dholbach: from my short experience, packages are fixed much faster when emails are sent to packagers. REVU could do that automatically.
[09:04] <LaserJock> is there a way to delegate reviewing (not necessarily advocating) more to responsible MOTUWannabes ?
[09:04] <dholbach> and communication... maybe we need a bot in #ubuntu-motu
[09:04] <siretart> I think it is fine. not the prettiest package I've seen, but looks okay. But I don't have much KDE experience either
[09:04] <Riddell> if revu sent out e-mails that would help a lot I think
[09:05] <siretart> raphink: we (sistpoty and me currently) are working on that
[09:05] <sistpoty> dholbach, raphink: irc-bot for revu2 and emails are planned... but again, my fault for being lazy 
[09:05] <dholbach> "new package 123 uploaded - [link] " - "new comment on 234 [link] "
[09:05] <dholbach> sistpoty: don't beat yourself up
[09:05] <dholbach> sistpoty: you were quite active otherwise and we're all grateful for that
[09:05] <raphink> :)
[09:06] <dholbach> how complicated would it be to write a dirty hack to send out mails?
[09:06] <sistpoty> hehe dholbach... but I finally want to get to work to it :)
[09:06] <siretart> dholbach: I have another problem with that
[09:06] <dholbach> maybe to a new mailing list, a small program, reading the database logs?
[09:06] <raphink> sistpoty: :)
[09:06] <\sh> dholbach: no new mailinglist please :)
[09:06] <siretart> dholbach: we would either have to implement a blacklist or whitelist whom to mail
[09:06] <sistpoty> dholbach: easy... at least to ubuntu-motu ml
[09:06] <siretart> dholbach: and an interface to that list
[09:06] <dholbach> any list
[09:07] <\sh> siretart: can you sort the list for advocates?
[09:07] <siretart> because we certainly don't want to spam innocent maintainers
[09:07] <raphink> yes
[09:07] <\sh> siretart: so that new packages are shown on the top and not in the middle of the list? or at the end?
[09:07] <slomo_> what about spamming the one who signed the upload?
[09:07] <raphink> if Debian maintainers are spammed with REVU stuff they won't like it for sure
[09:07] <crimsun> out of curiosity, could we colour-code the status of packages? I understand we already have a Comments/Advocate column
[09:07] <siretart> revu just checks signatures. not if the email is correct
[09:08] <siretart> this would be more easy when we actually authenticate and use launchpad for that
[09:08] <siretart> but thats revu2, and the reason why there is no email notification right now
[09:08] <dholbach> a quick and dirty solution would suffice for now, wouldn it?  sending mails to revu@tauware,de? :)
[09:08] <sistpoty> siretart: why not sending a mail to motu-reviewers list, with a certain subject so that everyone on the list can filter it, if he doesn't want it... the uploader wouldn't get a mail (yet)
[09:08] <raphink> crimsun: I'd say we'd need some kinds of levels for packages aswell, rather than just NEW, WORKED ON and OK
[09:08] <\sh> raphink: revu2
[09:08] <siretart> sistpoty: hey, thats an easy hack I didn't think of 
[09:08] <raphink> \sh: great :)
[09:08] <dholbach> we should prioritize our requirements
[09:08] <crimsun> I think one thing that makes the revu page kinda daunting is the extremely long list; colour-coding would help at a quick ovreview
[09:08] <LaserJock> maybe we should have a REVU2 Love Day ;-)
[09:09] <crimsun> overview^
[09:09] <raphink> LaserJock: ++
[09:09] <sistpoty> siretart: still s.o. who reviews a packge should still ping/mail the uploader (by hand)
[09:09] <raphink> crimsun: ++
[09:09] <siretart> sistpoty: yepp. The email should contain both submitter and reviewer
[09:09] <\sh> LaserJock: did you ever read siretarts and ajmitchs revu2 spec crack? it's awesome...:) I needed at least 2 nights to understand it :)
[09:09] <siretart> lol
[09:09] <dholbach> :)
[09:10] <ajmitch> heh
[09:10] <siretart> \sh: reordering of new and old crack, that sounds reasonable
[09:10] <LaserJock> \sh: skimmed it
[09:10] <\sh> well..actually it was the diagram 
[09:10] <siretart> sistpoty: do you think you could adjust the query?
[09:10] <ajmitch> \sh: mostly siretart & sistpoty 
[09:10] <sistpoty> siretart: I can adjust every query ;)
[09:10] <\sh> ajmitch: you helped siretart a lot at ubz :) 
[09:10] <ajmitch> sure
[09:10] <ajmitch> now I get to help coding it
[09:10] <slomo_> sistpoty: you're the sql god ;)
[09:11] <\sh> ajmitch: you see..and I'll take you merges ,)
[09:11] <slomo_> hi tseng :)
[09:11] <siretart> sistpoty: that would be great
[09:11] <siretart> sistpoty: I think there are no uncommited changes left in /srv/revu1
[09:11] <raphink> hi tseng 
[09:11] <sistpoty> siretart: ok... will check out a local copy
[09:11] <siretart> no there isn't
[09:11] <dholbach> what is the current agreement for the quick and dirty solution, which will all our lives better?
[09:11] <siretart> so I can probably just update from head
[09:12] <ajmitch> hello tseng 
[09:12] <ajmitch> I think most people will have a short break in the next week or so
[09:12] <siretart> dholbach: I'll create a mailing list revu-comments@tauware.de, and make revu send emails for every comment there
[09:12] <\sh> dholbach: I think sorting the packages for "packages with one advocates on top of the list"
[09:12] <ajmitch> so we'll get stuck into things in january
[09:12] <raphink> hopefully ajmitch 
[09:12] <siretart> I think that could serve as an interim solution
[09:12] <dholbach> siretart: that's awesome
[09:12] <ajmitch> siretart: good idea
[09:12] <sistpoty> siretart: can't we reuse motu-reviewers ml?
[09:12] <dholbach> announce it on ubuntu-motu@ please
[09:13] <siretart> dholbach: after it is implemented, I'll announce it
[09:13] <siretart> sistpoty: thats an option, too
[09:13] <siretart> sistpoty: but I'm not sure if thats a good idea
[09:13] <dholbach> sistpoty: maybe the guys uploading a package will only want to know about revu?
[09:13] <siretart> what do the others think?
[09:13] <ajmitch> \sh: so you & I can rock the world
[09:13] <raphink> there are lost of mailing lists, reusing motu-reviewers might be easier
[09:13] <\sh> ajmitch: welcome on board :)
[09:14] <\sh> ajmitch: ah no...I have to find a job very fast..if not..I can shutdown my IT center here
[09:14] <ajmitch> \sh: hehe
[09:14] <ajmitch> \sh: I've got enough for a couple of months, and a few potential jobs to look at
[09:14] <\sh> ajmitch: no joke...serious
[09:14] <ajmitch> they're mostly in .au though
[09:14] <sistpoty> well it has to do s.th. with reviewing, so my idea... but I'm still really undecided about which ml to use
[09:14] <siretart> raphink: since you raised the revu question: what would you prefer?
[09:15] <slomo_> hmm
[09:15] <slomo_> another idea for revu
[09:15] <siretart> raphink: a separate announce list or on the motu-reviewers mailling list?
[09:15] <ajmitch> we could get a lot of mails if all debdiffs & all REVU package comments go there
[09:15] <crimsun> e-mail would be good, but seriously using a more cogent colour scheme (via a style sheet?) would help as well.
[09:15] <slomo_> let people "subscribe" to revu or single uploads
[09:15] <ajmitch> slomo_: revu2
[09:15] <slomo_> ok
[09:15] <raphink> doens't matter to me since I'm not sucribed to motu-reviewers yet, but since it's directly related I'd go for only one ML
[09:15] <ajmitch> slomo_: I don't think the framework is there for individual subscription in revu1
[09:15] <siretart> slomo_: if you want to implement it, sure ;)
[09:16] <sistpoty> crimsun: revu1 already uses css... any help with it would be very much welcome ;)
[09:16] <ajmitch> siretart: I think we'll try & get revu2 workable by mid-late jan
[09:16] <LaserJock> well, how far off is REVU2 do you think?
[09:16] <slomo_> siretart: i _want_... but i can't when nobody invents the 72hour day soon :(
[09:16] <siretart> slomo_: seriously, I also think this is more easy to implement in the new codebase
[09:16] <siretart> slomo_: same here
[09:16] <dholbach> i wouldn't like it on motureviewers, since those bugs all go to universe-bugs@ atm
[09:16] <dholbach> and that'd make the list even more insane
[09:16] <siretart> LaserJock: unfortunatly, I don't think it will go live before january, unless we get lots of more volunteers who suddenly start hacking
[09:17] <ajmitch> siretart: me! me!
[09:17] <raphink> good point then dholbach 
[09:17] <siretart> ajmitch: :)
[09:17] <LaserJock> siretart: what does it take to work on it?
[09:17] <ajmitch> siretart: but I won't start hacking it until jan 1st ;)
[09:17] <siretart> LaserJock: currently an svn client, and a bit of python knowledge
[09:17] <sistpoty> dholbach: motu-reviewers ml go to universe-bugs?
[09:17] <ajmitch> LaserJock: a good understanding of the spec, and of python, and various other tools
[09:17] <dholbach> sistpoty: yes
[09:17] <\sh> python , mod_python , and a lot of debian foo bar knowledge :) and eat a bit of siretarts crazy brain ;)
[09:17] <ajmitch> \sh: I've already done the brain thing
[09:18] <\sh> hehhe
[09:18] <siretart> yes. it is essential to understand the workflow
[09:18] <sistpoty> dholbach: strange... why do we have a separate ml then? (motu-reviewers on tauware)
[09:18] <siretart> ok, then lets use the same list
[09:18] <dholbach> ?
[09:18] <siretart> because revu and reviewing should be handled with equal priority, I think
[09:18] <LaserJock> hmm, I would be interested. I don't know if I could help much
[09:18] <dholbach> siretart: but those are not universe-bugs@
[09:19] <sistpoty> dholbach: at least that's a ml I'm subscribed to... and some bugs from malone with reviewing go there... but I'm not quite sure bout that *g*
[09:19] <slomo_> raphink: it's easy to learn :)
[09:19] <siretart> dholbach: ah, I remeber, we had some mailling list confusion
[09:19] <ajmitch> dholbach: bugs assigned to motureviewers go to the reviewers mailing list..
[09:19] <\sh> raphink: python is one language you have to learn :) it's the ubuntu language :)
[09:19] <siretart> dholbach: no, I don't want them to show up on universe-bugs, too
[09:19] <dholbach> siretart: yes, and i still have to approve those posts
[09:19] <sistpoty> ah, ajmitch... thx for clarification
[09:20] <raphink> \sh: then I shall
[09:20] <siretart> dholbach: fuck, then I forgot to take you off, sorry
[09:20] <siretart> sistpoty: we need to talk! *g*
[09:20] <sistpoty> siretart: sure :)
[09:20] <siretart> query, later, okay?
[09:20] <sistpoty> ok
[09:20] <siretart> good
[09:20] <siretart> ok.
[09:20] <siretart> summary: TODO: make revu mail comments to motu-reviewers
[09:21] <siretart> FIX mailinglist madnes
[09:21] <siretart> s
[09:21] <sistpoty> siretart: and uploads?
[09:21] <LaserJock> can anybody check out the revu svn repo?
[09:21] <siretart> sistpoty: thats an intersting point, we didn't discuss this yet
[09:21] <ajmitch> LaserJock: currently no
[09:21] <\sh> one mailinglist for \sh only name backslaSHs-own-mailinglist@crazy.ubuntu.people.com
[09:21] <siretart> shall every upload be announced too?
[09:21] <ajmitch> siretart: yes
[09:21] <ajmitch> siretart: well each new package
[09:21] <siretart> I mean, I already get an email for every upload, but the output is not very pretty
[09:22] <ajmitch> can you differentiate between a new package & an update to it on revu?
[09:22] <sistpoty> siretart: I want that too... at least for me ;)
[09:22] <siretart> ajmitch: yes, I think I can
[09:22] <ajmitch> siretart: oh, we'll do all this with rss in revu2 ;)
[09:22] <ajmitch> so someone can subscribe to what they want
[09:23] <raphink> oh that's nice :)
[09:23] <sistpoty> and mail.. I want lot's of mail from revu2 :)
[09:23] <ajmitch> sistpoty: generic notification wouldn't be hard if it's done right
[09:23] <siretart> ajmitch: I would hack it into revu1/scripts/process_uploads.py
[09:23] <sistpoty> ajmitch: cool
[09:24] <ajmitch> I'll draw up a list of what I'll try & work on 
[09:24] <siretart> ajmitch: there I have to register the new package to the database anyway, so I can use the check there
[09:24] <sistpoty> siretart: I'll care for comments
[09:24] <siretart> sistpoty: that would be awesome, thanks
[09:24] <ajmitch> in between all the merge bugs, etc
[09:24] <sistpoty> well, I'll leave it to you to fix the surely b0rked mail-cmd ;)
[09:24] <siretart> sistpoty: both mail for comments and new packages or just comments?
[09:24] <ajmitch> before \sh takes away all my bugs from me
[09:25] <sistpoty> siretart: I'd like to do comments at first... I guess you have better knowledge of incoming-processing?
[09:25] <\sh> ajmitch: you will have at least until next week :) when i'm better I'll rock again...
[09:25] <siretart> sistpoty: that isn't that sophisticated, just have a look at process_uploads.py, thats all
[09:25] <ajmitch> \sh: I'll be offline for a week by then
[09:25] <sistpoty> siretart: ok, I'll care for that too ;)
[09:25] <siretart> thanks!
[09:26] <sistpoty> np siretart
[09:26] <siretart> ok
[09:26] <\sh> ajmitch: well...I have to work hard...just before I'm offline forever ;)
[09:26] <siretart> then we have settled the revu business for now
[09:26] <sistpoty> ok, before we get too indepth into revu discussion... are there other points we want to discuss?
[09:26] <siretart> right, that was what I was going to ask
[09:26] <raphink> :)
[09:26] <siretart> what's left to discuss for now?
[09:26] <ajmitch> sistpoty: considering this is an unannounced impromptu meeting
[09:27] <raphink> sistpoty ate a bit of siretart's brain, too it seems
[09:27] <\sh> everybody who has open merge bugs..syncs, debdiffs..please send me the bug numbers...i'll test and upload thx
[09:27] <LaserJock> I just wanted to comment that I would like to get some feedback from my -motu email about the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[09:27] <siretart> \sh: could you please mail this to our mailing list?
[09:27] <siretart> this request, that is
[09:27] <\sh> means all people without upload rights...
[09:27] <\sh> siretart: sure
[09:27] <ajmitch> \sh: let me work on the ones I have assigned to me ;)
[09:27] <ajmitch> there's enough for me to break there
[09:27] <sistpoty> \sh: and please also note that everybody should look, if there are assigned bugs for him which he didn't request
[09:27] <crimsun> LaserJock: sure, url? (I have a backlog of over 1000 e-mails, so a url is handier atm)
[09:28] <\sh> ajmitch: you do the zope stuff...I don't touch them :)
[09:28] <ajmitch> \sh: yeah, there's enough of a tangled mess there
[09:28] <LaserJock> crimsun: I would like feedback on wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
[09:29] <siretart> LaserJock: looks nice! really!
[09:30] <siretart> LaserJock: how is it developed? docbook and svn?
[09:30] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you start off the packaging from scratch with something like what I did?
[09:30] <siretart> or just wiki?
[09:30] <sistpoty> LaserJock: rocks, as motu's keep saying ;)
[09:30] <LaserJock> it is part of the doc team I am now a member 
[09:30] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yep
[09:31] <siretart> anything else?
[09:31] <LaserJock> I started off with what Unfgiven did (currently on doc.ubuntu.com) but have decided to redo from the beginning
[09:31] <siretart> LaserJock: lets move that discussion to #ubuntu-motu, okay?
[09:31] <LaserJock> yes please
[09:31] <siretart> ok
[09:32] <sistpoty> if there is nothing else, I think it might be good to at least schedule another motu-meeting... 
[09:32] <ajmitch> unofficial motu meeting over?
[09:32] <siretart> I think so
[09:32] <siretart> does anyone have some time to write a summary about this meeting?
[09:32] <ajmitch> sistpoty: since this one wasn't really scheduled, and just happened on top of the media meeting
[09:33] <sistpoty> ajmitch: yes, but there wasn't a motu-meeting for a long time... and I guess it would be good to have a real motu-meeting in the near future (1/2 weeks from now)?
[09:33] <siretart> we mainly discussed 3 points: revu sending emails, \sh request of bugnumbers and LaserJock PackagingGuide outline
[09:33] <siretart> anyone?
[09:33] <ajmitch> sistpoty: january, please
[09:33] <sistpoty> ajmitch: yes, certainly a better choice ;)
[09:33] <ajmitch> too many people might be away otherwise
[09:34] <siretart> ok. then I'll do that
[09:34] <sistpoty> thx siretart
[09:34] <raphink> :)
[09:34] <siretart> ok. Thanks for your attendance, it was a great meeting!
[09:34] <siretart> meeting over!
[09:34] <dholbach>  thanks siretart
[09:34] <siretart> puh
[09:34] <ajmitch> ok
[09:34] <siretart> now lets go to work
[09:35] <sistpoty> hehe
[09:35] <ajmitch> discuss next meeting time on list
[09:35] <raphink> hehe
[09:35] <sistpoty> ajmitch++
[10:02] <sivang> was it MOTU meeting just now?
[10:03] <sistpoty> sivang: that was an improvised/unannounced motu meeting
[10:03] <sivang> sistpoty: ah, I see
[10:03] <sivang> sistpoty: figures, since I didn't see it in fridge
[10:04] <sistpoty> sivang: it was supposed to be only motumedia-meeting
[10:04] <ajmitch> but a mail was sent to the MOTU list with MOTUMeeting in the title
[10:06] <siretart> yeah, my bad. sorryh
[10:07] <sivang> sistpoty: np, I was mostly offline anyway, was just surprised to see what looked like a motu meeting that wasn't announced.