[12:09] <Burgwork> LaserJock, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch
[12:09] <mdke> evening all
[12:10] <LaserJock> hi
[12:10] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, seen it.
[12:10] <LaserJock> thanks
[12:20] <LaserJock> mdke: just got an email from breezy-updates, cool
[12:20] <mdke> ah good
[12:21] <mdke> now to get it approved...
[12:24] <Burgwork> LaserJock, mind merging the relevant parts into your own doc and then turning that into a redirect?
[12:25] <mdke> i thought their doc wasn't on the wiki
[12:26] <LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm, well I will certainly cover the relevant parts but I'm not sure about a redirect
[12:26] <Burgwork> mdke, that is some other doc
[12:26] <Burgwork> LaserJock, they cover the same subject material
[12:26] <mdke> LaserJock, we don't want wiki pages with the same stuff if possible, it's confusing
[12:27] <LaserJock> is it usually ok to redirect wiki to doc.u.c
[12:27] <LaserJock> mdke: well, honestly the Packaging guide will probably replace many wiki pages
[12:27] <LaserJock> that is one of the main points
[12:27] <LaserJock> there is packaging info literally all over the wiki
[12:28] <LaserJock> but it is scattered and sometimes wrong
[12:29] <mdke> redirecting to doc.u.c is not really possible
[12:29] <mdke> you can link there obviously
[12:30] <mdke> it would be nice to tidy up some of the packaging info around the wiki, especially the wrong bits
[12:30] <LaserJock> yeah, that is one of my tasks
[12:30] <LaserJock> I need to work on w.u.c/MOTU/DocTodo also
[12:36] <LaserJock> hmm, so maybe I just make a wiki page that has links to all the Packaging wiki pages
[12:41] <mdke> LaserJock, something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[12:41] <mdke> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopersDocumentation
[12:42] <LaserJock> argghh, there is just too many to keep track off
[12:42] <mdke> just pick one :)
[12:43] <LaserJock> but I'm trying to pool info together, decide what is correct and what isn't and get it in a good form
[12:44] <LaserJock> DeveloperResources is a good starting point
[12:46] <LaserJock> shoot, there is DeveloperDocumentation and DevelopersDocumentation
[12:48] <mdke> heh
[12:48] <LaserJock> man I wish the wiki could be cleaned up
[12:49] <LaserJock> I liked BetterWikiDocs, btw
[12:50] <mdke> ah cool
[12:58] <Burgwork> LaserJock, it will come, with better tools
[12:59] <mhz> any one here working on edubunt ucookbook?
[01:00] <Burgwork> mhz, jsgotangco is/was
[01:00] <mhz> yup
[01:00] <jsgotangco> mhz, at the moment, its kjcole and elkner in a bzr rep
[01:00] <mhz> kjcole and jelkner too
[01:01] <mhz> so you dont know which branch it is?
[01:06] <mhz> hmmm, interesting... https://launchpad.net/products/?text=edubuntu
[01:06] <mhz> shows both doc teams working on edubuntu
[01:10] <mhz> jsgotangco: http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/Edubuntu/Cookbook/ is the branch
[01:13] <mdke> hey jerome
[01:13] <jsgotangco> mhz, like i said in a previous email, its a totally different document to what I have started
[01:13] <jsgotangco> mdke, hey dude, you've been busy lately what's up?
[01:13] <mdke> workin ;)
[01:14] <mdke> nearly christmas tho
[01:14] <mdke> how's your job going?
[01:14] <jsgotangco> yes, ive been pretty busy myself
[01:14] <mhz> jsgotangco: so you want me to collaborate where?
[01:14] <jsgotangco> mhz, i cannot commit to edubuntu atm, i'm just overwhelmed by commitments
[01:15] <mdke> mhz, it's up to you
[01:15] <mdke> makes sense to work on the active doc tho
[01:15] <jsgotangco> mdke, job is good i've been exposed to a lot of mobile porn lately though
[01:15] <mdke> lol
[01:15] <mdke> jsgotangco, you say that like it's a bad thing
[01:16] <jsgotangco> mdke, yeah especially if one section of the company devotes to gay porn
[01:16] <mhz> hehehe
[01:16] <mdke> lol
[01:16] <mhz> eeeek
[01:16] <mdke> all legal i hope
[01:16] <jsgotangco> but i'm just a solutions architect, i make the infrastructure decisions irregardless of whats the content heh
[01:16] <jsgotangco> mdke, sure of course, its perfectly normal to have such an adult mobile culture in au
[01:17] <mdke> :)
[01:17] <mdke> these aussies....
[01:17] <jsgotangco> think of it as mobile king's cross hah
[01:17] <jsgotangco> but its only like 2% of the business most of it are targeted to teens
[01:18] <mdke> ouch
[01:18] <mdke> sounds like the porn side is better
[01:18] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[01:19] <jsgotangco> we have this old ivr machine which is an interesting piece of work
[01:19] <jsgotangco> i wouldn't delve into details but i won't be calling an adult chat line for sure after learning who's behind those voices...
[01:20] <mdke> hahaha
[01:20] <mdke> scary
[01:22] <jsgotangco> yeah dude i'm pretty shocked as well
[01:22] <jsgotangco> hehe
[01:23] <jsgotangco> imagine people pay $3au for that crap
[01:23] <jsgotangco> per minute
[01:24] <mdke> hmm
[01:24] <mdke> does sound a bit silly
[01:24] <jsgotangco> interestingly enough we still get good revenue from the old system, but mobile has been the cash cow
[01:25] <jsgotangco> mdke, how come you're still not aggregated?
[01:25] <mdke> jsgotangco, apparently planet is broken still
[01:26] <mdke> i find it weird because planet is the simplest software ever to run, you just need a cronjob and access to config.ini, and you're away
[01:26] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:26] <mdke> it's annoying me recently because I want to post about so many things related to ubuntu-it and ubuntu-docs
[01:27] <mdke> actually I might send a few emails to sounder now
[01:27] <jsgotangco> ah k so people are stuck at the moment with our crappy posts
[01:27] <mdke> not crappy at all :)
[01:28] <jsgotangco> mdke, we should seriously start looking into bzr
[01:29] <jsgotangco> its been very very usable lately
[01:29] <mdke> yes
[01:29] <mdke> i've made a few brief excursions onto the wiki
[01:29] <mdke> so far I'm not convinced...
[01:29] <jsgotangco> really?
[01:29] <mdke> I would be convinced if we had more stable contributors, so that people would take charge of supervising merges to particular docs
[01:30] <mdke> but a centralised system works well for us, IMO, until that happens
[01:30] <jsgotangco> yes
[01:30] <mdke> we'll see
[01:30] <jsgotangco> perhaps till 6.10
[01:30] <mdke> the one big advantage to bzr
[01:30] <mdke> is LP
[01:30] <mdke> much better integration there
[01:36] <mdke> LaserJock, what is the status of the packaging guide in our svn?
[01:36] <LaserJock> very old
[01:37] <LaserJock> theCore and I am doing a complete rewrite, however I think it is best to keep the old one up until we have a rough draft
[01:37] <mdke> do you have a new version you wanna upload?
[01:37] <mdke> ah ok
[01:37] <mdke> LaserJock, where is your current work?
[01:38] <LaserJock> on my computer ;-)
[01:38] <mdke> oh right
[01:38] <mdke> wiki page?
[01:38] <mdke> any spec?
[01:39] <jsgotangco> mdke, awesome work on flight2 docs
[01:39] <LaserJock> we are using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline as an outline
[01:39] <LaserJock> I am currently getting feedback from -motu on it
[01:40] <jsgotangco> mdke, and yelp speed has improved even on xml
[01:40] <mdke> jsgotangco, you're not going to convince me :) we really need to ship html IMHO
[01:41] <mdke> LaserJock, thanks
[01:41] <mdke> jeez this is the worst spec ever
[01:41] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocsPackaging
[01:42] <jsgotangco> mdke, well i do admit the html css is great
[01:42] <jsgotangco> eh? there's nothing in it
[01:42] <jsgotangco> and it seems to have my name as well
[01:42] <jsgotangco> tee hee
[01:43] <mdke> i'm deleting it, ok by you?
[01:43] <mdke> it's done anyway
[01:43] <jsgotangco> np
[01:43] <jsgotangco> maybe you can put on a wiki how your method
[01:43] <mdke> it's quite standard I think
[01:43] <jsgotangco> blah awesome english
[01:43] <mdke> anyway, anything important is in debian/README
[01:44] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:44] <jsgotangco> PSG-01   mdke (Matthew East)   
[01:45] <mdke> hmm?
[01:45] <mdke> i can't see most of those characters
[01:45] <jsgotangco> its in hangeul (korean)
[01:45] <HrdwrBoB> because your client is not UTF8
[01:45] <jsgotangco> i think they were discussing about docs
[01:45] <jsgotangco> i've been idling at the korean channel lately although most of the time i have no idea what they are discussing
[01:45] <mdke> HrdwrBoB, term_charset = UTF-8
[01:46] <mdke> jsgotangco, that was in there eh?
[01:46] <jsgotangco> yeah in another server
[01:46] <jsgotangco> ive been helping out the team
[01:47] <mdke> ah cool
[01:47] <mdke> i'm very big in korea
[01:48] <mdke> jsgotangco, so tell us about this asia business tour thing
[01:48] <mdke> who's going?
[01:49] <jsgotangco> sabdfl and some canonical staff
[01:49] <mdke> looks like a pretty damn cool idea
[01:49] <mdke> is it top secret who is going?
[01:49] <jsgotangco> i wont be surprised if the devs based in london would come
[01:49] <jsgotangco> not at all
[01:49] <jsgotangco> we just have no idea who else is going
[01:49] <mdke> ah right
[01:50] <mdke> are you travelling too?
[01:50] <jsgotangco> probably cvd would come
[01:50] <jsgotangco> most likely around asean only
[01:50] <jsgotangco> (south east asian nations)
[01:51] <mdke> cool
[01:52] <jsgotangco> it doesnt cost that much to travel between ASEAN nations
[01:53] <mdke> i gotta sleep
[01:53] <mdke> see you later
[01:55] <jsgotangco> night
[03:09] <LaserJock> mdke: here is a quick list of packaging resources on the wiki and elsewhere: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Resources
[06:15] <Madpilot> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/5817
[06:15] <Madpilot> ^^^ getting that validation error w/ common-tasks.xml
[06:15] <Madpilot> WTF does it mean?
[06:16] <Madpilot> I copied the layout exactly from the next entry down, and it still doesn't validate...
[06:18] <Madpilot> nevermind, fix the damn thing... f'ing XML... ;)
[06:18] <Madpilot> fixed, even...
[06:21] <LaserJock> what was wrong?
[06:21] <LaserJock> I usually get stuff like that when I forgot to use / to close a tag
[06:22] <Madpilot> no, I misspelled a tag :(
[06:22] <Madpilot> fixed now, diff generated, it'll be off to the list in a moment
[06:22] <LaserJock> doh, that will do it ;-)
[06:24] <Madpilot> patch sent - BitTorrent now has a basic entry in common tasks
[06:31] <LaserJock> Madpilot: cool
[06:32] <Madpilot> LaserJock: do you own an iPod? if yes, do you want to write that section? there's nothing there now... :)
[06:36] <LaserJock> Madpilot: unfortunately no, maybe after Christmas though ;-)
[06:37] <Madpilot> hehe
[06:37] <Madpilot> was considering treating myself to an iRiver for Xmas - they play .ogg, I have about 30Gb of music in .ogg here :)
[06:37] <LaserJock> yeah, that is what I am trying to figure out
[06:38] <LaserJock> I have quite a bit of .ogg too ~2GB
[06:39] <LaserJock> I wish iPods would play .ogg, that would rock
[06:40] <Madpilot> some of the iRivers look pretty cool - about the size of an iPod shuffle, but with actual controls & a screen
[06:40] <jsgotangco> yeah
[06:40] <jsgotangco> iRivers rock
[06:43] <LaserJock> like what model?
[06:44] <Madpilot> I was looking at the 799 or 899 - they're identical except for the external skin... (marketing causes strange things...)
[06:44] <Madpilot> only 1Gb flash drive, but that's enough for a lot of .ogg files...
[06:45] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:47] <LaserJock> but with an iPod nano you get 2GB
[06:47] <Madpilot> but no .ogg
[06:48] <LaserJock> true
[06:48] <LaserJock> I would like to support .ogg from a philosophical stand point
[06:49] <Madpilot> I'm supporting .ogg because I've already go masses of music ripped to it...
[06:49] <Madpilot> got, not go...
[06:50] <LaserJock> well, I can make .mp3's if I need to, but ...
[06:50] <Madpilot> likewise
[06:50] <LaserJock> maybe a H10 would be better
[06:51] <LaserJock> oh, wait. They don't say the support .ogg
[06:51] <Madpilot> I think they do
[06:51] <Madpilot> I just want a music player, a tiny colour screen is a waste of money for me - that's why I'm looking at the 799/899
[06:51] <LaserJock> they just say MP3, WMA, and ASF on their website
[06:52] <LaserJock> Madpilot: true, I just want something that is going to last a while
[06:57] <LaserJock> hmm, the battery lifetime is much better with the 799/899 than the others
[01:59] <sqrat1121> greetings... what's the best way to install fop on breezy? I'm semi-newb but I'll rtfm and do whatever it takes. Any advice?
[02:56] <Madpilot> meeting in five minutes?
[02:58] <jjesse> yup
[02:58] <Madpilot> cool
[02:59] <Madpilot> good morning, and all that
[02:59] <jjesse> morning Madpilot 
[02:59] <jjesse> hmm where's the setting in konversatation to keep the window always on top?
[03:03] <jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
[03:03] <jsgotangco> hey
[03:26] <mdke> hello all
[03:26] <mhz> hi
[03:26] <mdke> how's the meeting?
[03:26] <Madpilot> no meeting yet, but there's a few of us in -meeting already
[03:26] <mdke> who's around?
[03:27] <mhz> mdke: can the wiki be used as personal Blog to register anything regarding your hardware testings, kernel configs, etc?
[03:28] <mdke> mhz, sure
[03:28] <mhz> mdke: okis.
[03:29] <mhz> mdke: and do you have 'ground rules' we can use to invite necomers to wikis, not to use wiki names like tHISiSmYwikiPAGE
[03:29] <mhz> ?
[03:29] <mdke> not to my knowledge
[03:30] <mdke> except for WikiGuide
[03:30] <Madpilot> there's some mention of "good wiki page titles" in WikiGuide, isn't there?
[03:31] <mhz> Could we have a bot to provide us with wiki URL's ?
[03:32] <Madpilot> yeah - 4th bullet point in Style & Guidelines
[03:32] <mhz> indeed
[03:33] <mhz> 5th
[04:36] <mdke> jsgotangco, iosn looks cool
[04:37] <jsgotangco> except it lacks money
[04:37] <jsgotangco> sadly, its terribly undermanned
[04:38] <mdke> oh well, at least it exists
[04:40] <jsgotangco> mdke, yeah jdub's wife is also involved with it
[04:40] <mdke> ok
[04:41] <jdub> mdke: you'll be pleased to know that i am about to try and unfuck the planet situation again (knowing that elmo is around to pick on him if anything's still broken)
[04:42] <mdke> jdub, very pleased :) seriously what is the trouble with giving you write access to a server? you're a trustworthy chap
[04:42] <mdke> henrik has access to wikiconfig.py iirc
[04:42] <jsgotangco> jdub, how about a hackergotchi/
[04:42] <jdub> i have write access to a different server, where planet will be moved, but it is not set up correctly
[04:43] <jdub> jsgotangco: for you?
[04:43] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:43] <mdke> i was gonna say jsgotangco 
[04:43] <mdke> nice hackergotchi
[04:43] <jsgotangco> i have one in lp
[04:43] <mdke> i saw it on the wiki page
[04:43] <mdke> jdub, anyway, awesome news, thanks
[04:43] <jsgotangco> you think that's good? i thought it was bad...not really good at gimp
[04:43] <mdke> it's loads better than mine
[04:44] <mdke> damn laptop touchpads...
[04:45] <jsgotangco> jdub, yeah it sucks to look like a chess pawn in planet
[04:45] <jdub> jsgotangco: yeah dude, that's a nice one!
[04:45] <jdub> well done!
[04:46] <jdub> noice
[04:48] <jdub> jsgotangco: was that your first? most people don't get it right on the first go.
[04:48] <jsgotangco> 2nd
[04:48] <jdub> ahr
[04:49] <jdub> cool original photo too
[04:49] <jsgotangco> i tried to smoothen it further but it looked worse
[04:49] <jsgotangco> gaussian blurs can be double edged swords
[04:49] <jdub> i think the best hackergotchis are the ones where, if you look at the original complete photo, it looks like the hackergotchi stamped onto a generic background image
[04:51] <jdub> well
[04:51] <jdub> hrm
[04:51] <jsgotangco> they look to clean to me
[04:51] <jdub> so you do know that most gnome developers are actually real people, with complete bodies and so on, right? :-)
[04:52] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:52] <Madpilot> really? :P
[04:52] <jdub> little known fact
[04:52] <jdub> we don't live in jars, either
[04:53] <jsgotangco> i finally believed that when i got to eat dimsum with jdub
[04:53] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:53] <jdub> dude
[04:53] <jdub> seriously
[04:53] <jdub> i will tell you again
[04:54] <jdub> that i WASN'T FLINCHING at the jars
[04:54] <jdub> AT ALL
[04:54] <jsgotangco> jdub, have you seen DapperFlight2 wiki page?
[04:54] <jjesse> it rocks
[04:56] <jdub> hmm, it has been sitting in a browser tab, unread
[04:56] <jdub> fie on these so-called "innovations"
[04:56] <jdub> thanks for reminding me :)
[04:57] <jdub> WHO WROTE THIS?
[04:57] <jsgotangco> its mgalvin 
[04:57] <jdub> TELL ME NOW
[04:57] <jsgotangco> he did the whole thing
[04:57] <jdub> dude
[04:57] <jdub> seriously
[04:57] <mgalvin> hey
[04:57] <jdub> i am going to go to galvinia
[04:57] <jdub> and kiss you
[04:57] <jdub> on a mountain
[04:58] <mgalvin> glad you like it, but my wife might get jealous ;)
[04:58] <jdub> she can come too
[04:58] <jdub> i'll bring pia
[04:58] <jjesse> as long as you don't compare who is the better kisser
[04:58] <jdub> it'll be great
[04:58] <jsgotangco> hahahhaa
[04:58] <mgalvin> hehe
[04:58] <jdub> then we can base jump from MOUNT GALVINIA
[04:58] <jdub> dude
[04:58] <jdub> see
[04:59] <jdub> *most* of this is about BENEFITS
[04:59] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:59] <jdub> which is THE BOMB
[05:01] <jdub> mgalvin: only recommendation i'd make is that in the few places you're focusing on features ahead of benefits, switch them around
[05:01] <jsgotangco> benefits first, features last?
[05:01] <jdub> well, first you say what the benefit is, then back it up by describing the feature that enables the benefit
[05:01] <jdub> FASTER STARTUP TIME
[05:02] <mgalvin> good point, i'll keep that in mind for DapperFlight3 :)
[05:02] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:02] <jdub> - hardware detection speed, gnome desktop optimisations
[05:02] <jdub> - bootchart for developer analysis of startup issues
[05:02] <jdub> - blah blah
[05:04] <jdub> then your contents list is all benefits too :-)
[05:04] <jdub> faster startup time
[05:04] <jdub> new applications
[05:04] <jdub> improved look'n'feel
[05:04] <jdub> increased hardware support
[05:04] <jsgotangco> jdub, one thing i notice on *most* software writeups are about features though..that can overwhelm the reader...
[05:04] <jdub> yeah
[05:05] <jsgotangco> i get your point now
[05:05] <jsgotangco> :)
[05:05] <jdub> but this is so on the money in terms of presentation and focus
[05:05] <jdub> mgalvin: ROCK ON!
[05:05] <mgalvin> thnx :)
[05:05] <jdub> mgalvin: do you generally get this out post-release?
[05:06] <jsgotangco> no it got out during flight2 release announcement
[05:06] <jsgotangco> Kamion mentioned it
[05:06] <jdub> awesome
[05:06] <jdub> good
[05:06] <mgalvin> well its the first full one i have done and it was done right on time
[05:06] <jjesse> and hopefully if somoene can let me know we can get a kubuntu dapper flight 3
[05:06] <mgalvin> yea colin mentioned it in the announcement
[05:06] <jjesse> and link that to kaimon's announcment
[05:08] <mgalvin> i will usually track the dev pretty closely so I can certainly do them pre-release so the link can be in the announcements
[05:08] <mgalvin> s/will//
[05:11] <jdub> mgalvin: i will chat to kamion, ask if he would be willing to sync up more formallyish
[05:11] <jdub> and when i say "ask" i mean "encourage"
[05:11] <mgalvin> sounds good
[05:12] <mdke> mgalvin, how about adding menu improvements (MenusRevisited)
[05:12] <jdub> good one
[05:12] <mdke> would come under 4
[05:12] <mdke> ui improvements
[05:12] <mgalvin> jdub: i am usually around all day too, so i am easy to get a hold of
[05:13] <mgalvin> mdke: +1
[05:13] <jdub> mgalvin: where are you based?
[05:13] <jsgotangco> new york
[05:13] <jdub> ui improvements == feature :-)
[05:13] <mgalvin> ny
[05:13] <jdub> some day i will get there
[05:13] <mgalvin> cool
[05:13] <jdub> haha
[05:14] <jdub> interesting to see the ubuntu article on slashdot
[05:14] <mdke> btw is there a good way to report bugs in planet?
[05:14] <jdub> devel@lists.planetplanet.org
[05:14] <jdub> i will have to make a launchpad entry for it sometime
[05:14] <mdke> thanks
[05:14] <jdub> or maybe i have
[05:14] <jdub> i forget
[05:16] <jsgotangco> oh it got into slashdot?
[05:16] <mdke> mgalvin, i don't think that page has been /.'ed
[05:16] <jdub> mgalvin: ok, we'll have to sort that out for you
[05:16] <mgalvin> nope, i don't see it there
[05:17] <mdke> maybe you can get the images uploaded to the wiki server or somewhere else
[05:17] <mgalvin> jdub: mdke and I did move the images to doc.ubuntu.com but  that server has speed/mem issues from time to time
[05:17] <mgalvin> so i am still hosting the images
[05:18] <mgalvin> they are also in the doc svn repository so anybody can grab them easily
[05:18] <jsgotangco> it is?
[05:18] <jsgotangco> oh right
[05:19] <mgalvin> jsgotangco: we put them there the other day but it was taking minutes and the images still were no loading
[05:19] <mgalvin> so i switched back to my box
[05:19] <mdke> yeah the server was blocked
[05:20] <mdke> it's not powerful enough to handle help.u.c
[05:26] <jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
[05:26] <jsgotangco> see you later folks
[05:26] <mgalvin> night
[05:26] <mdke> ciao
[05:45] <jsgotangco> jdub, are you joining the asia tour?
[05:45] <jdub> maybe for bits of it
[05:45] <jdub> we'll see
[05:45] <jdub> i'll be busy at lca and possibly other things
[05:45] <jsgotangco> right
[06:57] <LaserJock> theCore: ping?
[06:58] <theCore> LaserJock, pong
[06:58] <LaserJock> theCore: I added a new page wiki page, UbuntuPackagingGuide/Resources
[06:59] <theCore> cool
[07:00] <theCore> that page gonna be helpful
[07:00] <LaserJock> if you come across web pages or wiki pages that have good packaging info add it to the list
[07:00] <theCore> sure
[07:00] <LaserJock> I especially want to nail down the Ubuntu wiki pages
[07:03] <LaserJock> we need to see what the wiki has and what we will be replacing ;-)
[07:05] <theCore> it doesn't seem you missed a single wiki page about packaging
[07:06] <LaserJock> well, I did searchs for package, packaging, and developer
[08:33] <jdub> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-devel-list/2005-December/msg00020.html
[08:38] <LaserJock> jdub: very interesting
[08:38] <mdke> yep, good news if it works
[08:44] <LaserJock> would that effect the decision to ship .html?
[08:44] <mdke> not for me
[08:51] <jdub> mdke: you're going to have to figure out some reasons why it makes sense, if you want to convince us that it's sane
[08:57] <mdke> jdub, are you saying that I haven't done that?
[08:58] <mdke> also, who needs convincing?
[08:59] <jdub> a) yes, b) desktop team
[08:59] <mdke> ok
[08:59] <mdke> jdub, can you justify a) a bit more? I think my post to the desktop list was pretty compelling
[09:01] <mdke> also, not a single person responded giving one reason to ship xml
[09:03] <jdub> - if we're going to give the docs stylesheets some love, it should effect the entire installed set (and the easiest way of doing that is through yelp's css)
[09:03] <jdub> - i don't believe loading speed will continue to be an issue
[09:04] <jdub> - same format stuff doesn't matter, we can render whatever wherever we want
[09:04] <mdke> jdub, (a) the entire installed set includes much html already, which we can't customise (b) there is no reason why we shouldn't have a different css for ubuntu-specific docs
[09:04] <mdke> loading speed is an issue
[09:05] <jdub> a) the objective is to fix that, by shipping docbook
[09:05] <mdke> ??
[09:05] <mdke> you're gonna ship (e.g.) cups docs in docbook?
[09:05] <jdub> b) there is - why should ubuntu docs be specially different? a consistent ubuntu-branded theme across the docs would be a very positive step
[09:06] <jdub> where possible, we should ship docbook where available (such as mutt upstream docs, etc)
[09:06] <jjesse> is anyone doing any upstream docs?
[09:06] <jdub> i don't think "all the other non-desktop docs" is a reasonable excuse for ubuntu docs :)
[09:06] <mdke> i really don't follow your arguments
[09:06] <jdub> i'm not entirely convinced the language stuff is sorted, but i'll have to play again
[09:06] <mdke> jdub, can we continue on that thread by email, it might be easier to discuss that way
[09:08] <jdub> ok
[09:08] <mdke> the documentation team without exception are in favour of html as far as I can see, so it's just a question of convincing you
[09:09] <jdub> disintegrating a subset of our desktop documentation makes no sense
[09:10] <mdke> the ubuntu specific documentation is not a subset of desktop documentation
[09:11] <mdke> and if the desktop documentation itself was integrated, I'll agree, but it's not
[09:11] <mdke> anyhow, gtg
[09:11] <jdub> right, so because in terms of content it's not a subset, that's a good enough reason to disintegrate it from the help system?
[09:12] <mdke> yes, and in any case, I don't think my proposal is correctly described as "disintegration"
[09:13] <mdke> it works really nicely in the same help viewer
[09:13] <jdub> a) it looks ugly (potentially fixable)
[09:13] <mdke> of course its fixable
[09:13] <jdub> b) you can navigate it the same way, it's pointlessly different
[09:13] <jdub> s/can/can't/
[09:14] <jdub> c) it won't benefit from search, other viewer features
[09:14] <jdub> d) why are we being different for the hell of it?
[09:14] <mdke> for the hell of it?
[09:14] <mgalvin> i have always prefered docbook (but thats just me)
[09:14] <mdke> dude you are really just not listening
[09:14] <mpt> (b) is a feature, not a bug :-)
[09:14] <mdke> at least pay some respect
[09:14] <mpt> (c) is vaporware
[09:15] <mpt> (d): for reasons already described on the mailing list
[09:15] <mpt> (including it being LIGHT-STORMINGLY FASTAR)
[09:16] <jdub> mpt: (b) -> let's talk about this seriously
[09:16] <jjesse> shouldn't search be a basic tennet of help?
[09:16] <jdub> i know what you want out of the help system
[09:16] <jjesse> kinda like print
[09:16] <jdub> but that is *not* what our help system is right now
[09:16] <jdub> so there's no point pining for the fjords
[09:16] <jdub> shoving navigation into shitty html doesn't help the situation
[09:16] <jdub> being needlessly different doesn't help the situation
[09:17] <mdke> ok, with that I give up
[09:17] <mdke> you're way too aggressive
[09:17] <jdub> i think (b) is really important later on, when we don't have HULK-SMASH man pages for graphical software anymore
[09:17] <jdub> (c) is implemented and going to ship with 2.14
[09:18] <jdub> (d) isn't sufficiently supported from my POV
[09:18] <jdub> jjesse: yeah.
[09:18] <jdub> mpt: and the speed issue is being very soundly addressed
[09:18] <jjesse> sorry for being the newbie here, but it seems stupid not to be able to search help files and hsouldn't that be a focus of the help system?
[09:18] <mpt> jdub, cool, any links for that?
[09:19] <jdub> mdke: i am really listening. but i'm totally not convinced. we really ought to ship optimal help for both environments.
[09:19] <mpt> jdub, using HTML is a very easy way of improving the navigation. Saying "we can't do that because that's not what our help system is right now" is begging the question, in the original sense of the phrase.
[09:19] <jdub> mpt: see the link above
[09:19] <jdub> mpt: no, it's not. as soon as we choose html, we're choosing to stand out from everything else.
[09:20] <mpt> What "everything else"? Other distros?
[09:20] <jdub> mpt: you want our help system to be the right thing, right now. it isn't, and there's no point forcing it.
[09:20] <jdub> every other piece of desktop documentation (rah rah, our docs cover more, sure, but not significantly more, and i regard the differences in the other docs as bugs we need to fix, so why add more by choice, etc.)
[09:21] <jjesse> wow i just got lost in the converstation
[09:21] <mpt> If you mean it's worse for some docs to have a table of contents frame and others not, than for all to have a navigation frame, I disagree
[09:21] <jdub> meanwhile, i'm attempting to start yelp with a different locale, and nothing magic is happening
[09:22] <jdub> mpt: the combination of not integrating properly into the help system *and* being needlessly different in the process is a net loss
[09:22] <jdub> mpt: gaining or losing a sidebar... not really important. being different to the rest of the desktop docs for no reason... quite unfortunate.
[09:23] <mpt> different in what way?
[09:23] <mpt> presentation?
[09:23] <mpt> i.e. CSS?
[09:23] <jdub> document (a) has a nice TOC sidebar
[09:23] <jdub> document (b) does not
[09:24] <jdub> we have quite a few document (b) bugs hidden in there
[09:24] <jdub> because we pull lots of non-gnome docs in
[09:24] <mpt> IMO, "a nice TOC sidebar" is an oxymoron for on-screen help
[09:24] <jdub> but adding more document (b) bugs doesn't make sense
[09:24] <jdub> mpt: which is *irrelevant* right now
[09:24] <jdub> i know what you want from the help system
[09:24] <jdub> the current one doesn't give it to you
[09:24] <jdub> and there's no point forcing it by doing silly things
[09:25] <mpt> granted, which leaves the question of why using HTML is "silly"
[09:25] <jdub> facts of life: all our docs are man pages for GUI programs, which sucks, but that's what we've got, and that's what our help viewer is optimised for
[09:25] <mpt> and if you say "because it doesn't have a sidebar", that's circular logic :-)
[09:26] <jdub> because by shipping HTML we disintegrate those docs from the help system, we ship stuff that works/appears differently for no good reason
[09:26] <mpt> What do you mean by "disintegrate ... from the help system"?
[09:26] <mdke> here you go with the "no good reason" again. pft
[09:26] <jdub> mdke: because i don't have one that really satisfies my disbelief that we should deviate from the standard
[09:27] <jdub> mpt: translations, search, etc.
[09:27] <mdke> translation?
[09:27] <jdub> i've just been sitting here testing - no evidence that it works
[09:27] <mpt> jdub, as I understand it, translations are no longer an issue, and search, as previously mentioned, Does Not Exist
[09:27] <jdub> search will ship with 2.14
[09:27] <jdub> translations appear to be an issue
[09:28] <mpt> will Dapper have 2.14?
[09:28] <jdub> ubuntu ships with the latest gnome, every release dude
[09:28] <mpt> sorry, I'm not familiar with those version numbers
[09:28] <mpt> if search will be in Dapper and will only work with docbook, then I change my opinion
[09:28] <theCore> I don't know if shipping html docs whould be a good idea ... however it would speed up things but at the cost of losing the centralization of the docs
[09:29] <jjesse> what did we decide during the meeting and thru the mailing list?
[09:29] <jjesse> i think the arugments presented in those two locations were good enough to convince people at the meeting today
[09:30] <mpt> jjesse, HTML, but apparently minus some important evidence
[09:31] <jdub> jjesse: thing is, we keep going through this every release, and we've yet to have a good reason to diverge from the standard
[09:31] <mpt> jdub, will search work for docbook only?
[09:31] <jdub> mpt: highly likely
[09:31] <jdub> we'll see
[09:31] <jjesse> will we see by dapper?
[09:31] <jdub> but that alone won't convince me either
[09:32] <mpt> docbook-only search would be enough for me to say "use docbook", but it would be the only concrete reason you've presented so far, afaics
[09:32] <jdub> translation
[09:33] <jdub> needless divergence
[09:33] <jdub> even if search and translation are sorted, i want to be convinced why we should just randomly diverge
[09:33] <mpt> "divergence", "integration", "centralization", all abstract nouns which don't tell me what the precise problem is
[09:34] <jdub> we have a standard
[09:34] <theCore> btw, does yelp can read html ?
[09:34] <jdub> theCore: yes
[09:34] <mpt> not that I'm the one who needs convincing :-) .., but I can see why mdke is getting annoyed
[09:34] <jdub> tell me why we need to diverge from the standard
[09:34] <jjesse> does anyone have the email thread that was started available?
[09:35] <jdub> because the advantages in the xml or html post aren't sufficient (though i could be ultimately tempted by speed, if everything else was resolved, but at that point, i'd want to ship everything in html)
[09:35] <jdub> and the problem with that is that we'd be mostly needlessly diverging from upstream
[09:35] <jjesse> if none of the docs that we write are going upstream does it matter? (silly question I don't really know the answer)
[09:35] <jdub> jjesse: "xml or html for Ubuntu Guides"
[09:36] <mpt> I thought we were talking about Ubuntu-specific docs anyway
[09:36] <jjesse> mpt: that's as far as i knew
[09:36] <jdub> jjesse: upstream tests a particular setup, if we diverge significantly from that, we're into dangerous territory
[09:37] <jdub> the fact that we're trying to make decisions exclusively to ubuntu specific content indicates we're on the wrong track, from my POV
[09:37] <jjesse> jdub: even if that divergence is the documentation that is specific to our distro?
[09:37] <jjesse> i'm really trying to understand the discussion, i hope it comes across that way
[09:37] <jdub> jjesse: if there were really good reasons for shipping html, i would want to ship all of our docs in html (and when i say 'our', i mean all the documentation we ship, not ubuntu specific docs)
[09:37] <jjesse> hopefully my stupid questions don't offend
[09:38] <mpt> jjesse, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
[09:38] <jdub> not at all
[09:38] <jdub> i want to help you guys understand the problem space
[09:38] <jdub> because the desktop team start flinching and stuff when these things come up
[09:39] <theCore> i don't get it, what is difference at the end ? normaly we write docbook then export to html, isn't it? so, we wouldn't diverge from upstream ?
[09:39] <mpt> so mdke's reasons are (1) easier stylability, (2) much faster, (3) can be put on help.ubuntu.com in the same format
[09:39] <jdub> i guess an important point is that we need to stop thinking about ubuntu-specific docs separately from the rest of the documentation we ship
[09:39] <jdub> mpt: do you need answers to those?
[09:40] <mpt> well, I can see (1) isn't necessarily a benefit, if you want to style the docbook stuff in the same way, you have to put in as much if not more effort
[09:40] <mpt> (2) you've shown some evidence will be addressed
[09:41] <jdub> (1) -> it's branded css either way. by branding the standard stylesheet, we brand everything in one hit. maximum payoff.
[09:41] <mpt> (3) is ho-hum, they could be compiled to HTML for help.ubuntu.com in the same way as they'd be compiled to HTML for yelp
[09:41] <jdub> (2) -> potentially still an issue, but rapidly being addressed upstream, and not worth diverging for at that point, even if marginally faster
[09:41] <jdub> (3) -> yeah
[09:42] <jjesse> what if yelp supported searching in html
[09:42] <jdub> still wouldn't clinch the deal for me
[09:43] <mpt> and for me (4) it would mean that at least some of the docs didn't have a sidebar, which I regard as an advantage even if some of them still do
[09:43] <mpt> but, bah
[09:43] <jjesse> wow i wish we ccould have had this discussion at the meeting this morning
[09:43] <mpt> none of our docs are help yet anyway, so that's really a non-issue
[09:43] <jdub> mpt: inconsistent, appeals only to your hope that our documentation will not be man pages for GUI software some time in the future
[09:44] <mpt> indeed
[09:44] <jdub> jjesse: i'm disappointed that it keeps coming up without the right people involved in the decision - this stuff has serious desktop/documentation ramifications
[09:44] <mpt> I don't think consistency is an issue *at all* -- people use the Web just fine despite inconsistent navigation styles
[09:45] <mpt> but not having actual help pages does mean it's a meaningless point at the moment
[09:45] <jdub> mpt: inconsistency == bugs
[09:45] <jdub> as in, people report this stuff
[09:45] <jdub> "my blah blah doesn't have a navigation tree!"
[09:45] <jdub> etc.
[09:45] <jdub> don't be fatuous
[09:45] <mpt> seriously
[09:46] <mpt> their help's a haphazard mixture of framesets
[09:46] <mpt> HTML 3.2 city
[09:46] <jdub> so the thing that really disappoints me here is that it all comes across as an us vs. them thing
[09:47] <mpt> eh? :-)
[09:47] <jdub> when really, i'm trying to make sure we have a really rocking doc story on our desktop
[09:47] <mpt> who's "them"?
[09:47] <jdub> docteam vs. desktop
[09:47] <jdub> docteam has made this decision, what, three times now?
[09:48] <jdub> and to be honest, but not wanting to offend, it has always been a bit misguided
[09:49] <mpt> I see that now
[09:49] <mpt> because the docteam didn't know about those things that you're announcing now about yelp in 2.14
[09:49] <jdub> that's minor
[09:49] <mpt> lack of information --> bad decisions
[09:50] <jdub> back in hoary it was a bad idea
[09:50] <jdub> we don't need to diverge from the standard
[09:50] <jjesse> there then needs to be beter communication from the dekstop team
[09:50] <mpt> wait, now you're into the abstract nouns again :-)
[09:50] <mpt> hoary's yelp was faster at docbook than breezy's
[09:50] <mpt> in my experience
[09:51] <jdub> jjesse: whenever this discussion has come up, we've tried to help out - the problem is, we continue to disagree that this is a useful strategy
[09:52] <jdub> mpt: abstract noun or not, you actually need a reason to diverge from the standard; a good one.
[09:52] <mpt> which mdke presented
[09:53] <mpt> and we thought they were good reasons
[09:53] <mpt> but, in case they weren't, he cross-posted to the desktop list and said "let discussion commence"
[09:53] <mpt> and there was a deafening silence from the desktop team
[09:53] <jdub> so we've knocked those down
[09:53] <jdub> now i'm trying to get at the premise
[09:53] <mpt> so even if the decision was wrong, it was not the fault of anyone on the doc team.
[09:53] <jdub> because it's going to suck if this keeps happening
[09:53] <jjesse> seems like a problem on the deskotp team
[09:54] <jdub> mpt: i was away when that mail was sent, i don't think seb or daniel want to approach the issue
[09:55] <jdub> mpt: deafening silence from vuntz, who asked the very same questions i did, but was less demanding about it
[10:00] <jdub> mdke: there? have skype or sip or gtalk or something?
[10:07] <jjesse> jdub: i think he went to bed?
[10:08] <jdub> bummer
[10:44] <mdke> jdub, yeah I'm here now, but I don't have that, sorry
[10:44] <mdke> mpt, I _still_ think they are good reasons ;)
[10:44] <LaserJock> so is there wiki page or something doc team goals or objectives for each doc?
[10:45] <LaserJock> or status or something
[10:45] <mdke> DocteamProjects
[10:45] <mdke> each doc should have a spec, linked on that page
[10:45] <mdke> (in theory)
[10:45] <jdub> mdke: hrm, phone?
[10:45] <LaserJock> hmm, ok. I just wanted to get a better overall feel for what's going on and progress
[10:45] <mdke> jdub, yeah I have one of those
[10:45] <mpt> yes, please talk to jdub, mdke
[10:45] <mdke> ok
[10:45] <mpt> this is a giant communication problem
[10:46] <mpt> the more bandwidth, the better :-)
[10:46] <jdub> it is not too giant :-)
[10:46] <mdke> jdub, i'm pretty tired tho, maybe just a few more comments in here, then bed?
[10:46] <jdub> mdke: ok, let me know when you're around next, we'll hook up
[10:46] <mdke> will do
[10:46] <mdke> i don't think the communication problem is so big
[10:46] <jdub> planet is waiting on firewall and baz fixage :-)
[10:47] <mdke> i read (and so do most others) that gnome-doc-devel list
[10:47] <jdub> but don't bother elmo/znarl about it :)
[10:47] <mdke> i won't
[10:47] <jdub> because they will sautee my testicles in wasabi and soy
[10:47] <jdub> which is, so i hear, rather uncomfortable
[10:47] <mdke> i guess so
[10:47] <jdub> albeit quite tasty
[10:48] <mdke> ok, on speed. My concerns are (a) that I haven't seen it yet, and (b) that in any case, it is still doing xml->html, which will have at least a non-trivial effect on the speed
[10:48] <jdub> not that i've tried
[10:48] <mdke> (a) is not a biggie
[10:48] <LaserJock> mdke: none of the status links on DocteamProjects work
[10:48] <mdke> shaun gives quite good statistics in his post
[10:49] <mdke> LaserJock, yeah they aren't maintained, click the names of the docs for the specs
[10:50] <mdke> ok, on fragmentation. I don't think jdub's concerns about fragmenting the docs is a problem, because the Ubuntu docs appear in a totally separate section in the yelp homepage to other docs, and also html means that they can be viewed by people who (shock horror) don't run gnome. This is especially important for the server guide.
[10:51] <mdke> also, it's a gross exageration to call them "man pages for gui's"
[10:51] <mdke> the whole point is to turn them into "help", as mpt calls it
[10:51] <mdke> sure, it's not there yet, but it can get there, and working on the basis that it will is a good thing, IMO
[10:52] <mdke> on customised stylesheets for all documents, I'll believe it when i see it
[10:52] <jdub> mdke: all the desktop documentation is manpages for guis (this is more of an issue with gnome than ubuntu docs, but we've followed in the same footsteps)
[10:53] <mdke> did you see the serverguide and desktopguide? their aim is to be help
[10:53] <jdub> mdke: dpkg -L yelp | grep css
[10:53] <mdke> jdub, when I saw I'll believe it when I see it, I mean that I'll believe it when I see the work being done to customise it
[10:53] <mdke> obviously, I know that yelp uses stylesheets
[10:53] <jdub> serverguide -> if read on the desktop, awesome that it's integrated properly with the documentation viewer, otherwise it's most likely to be read on a website independently of the machine it's on
[10:54] <jdub> ok, i'll do it
[10:54] <jdub> it's disasterously easy
[10:54] <mdke> ok, in the meantime I'll upload an australian translation of html with the next dapper package
[10:54] <jdub> dude, i tried putting everything in the right place (according to your scheme) for a different translation, as did seb -> no go
[10:54] <jdub> anyway
[10:55] <jdub> all of this is "let's ship html -> here are some reasons"
[10:55] <jdub> not "why should we diverge from the standard"
[10:55] <mdke> the standard needs reasons too
[10:55] <mdke> it's the same question if you realise that
[10:55] <jdub> you want to diverge from the standard, which satisfies the needs of the entire set of desktop documentation
[10:56] <jdub> i don't think the onus is on the desktop team to prove that it's worth sticking with the standard :)
[10:56] <mdke> ok two things
[10:56] <mdke> 1) I accept that the onus is on the changer
[10:56] <mdke> 2) stop this desktop team vs docteam nonsense
[10:56] <mdke> there is no such battle
[10:56] <jdub> i'm not suggesting there's a battle
[10:57] <jdub> but there are two stakeholders here
[10:57] <mdke> I disagree
[10:57] <mdke> we have the same stakes
[10:57] <jdub> and there's two of us
[10:57] <jdub> let's not play semantics
[10:57] <mdke> what I'm saying is
[10:57] <jdub> desktop team needs to integrate your work
[10:57] <mdke> we have the same objective, people just think differently
[10:57] <jdub> you guys need to write cool docs for desktop team
[10:57] <jdub> that's right
[10:58] <mdke> doesn't matter what team they are in
[10:58] <jdub> and we're helping each other solve different parts of the problem
[10:58] <jdub> that's not the point, please stop assuming i think there's a 'battle' here
[10:58] <jdub> i am here to solve a problem
[10:58] <mdke> good
[10:59] <jdub> the problem, in my mind, is not "how do i help the docteam ship html?"
[10:59] <mdke> ok well the question I am trying to address is not that one either
[10:59] <jdub> it's "how do i help the docteam ship their docs in the best possible way for our users?"
[10:59] <mdke> it is "what is best for the user?"
[10:59] <jdub> right, so thus far, i've yet to see a reason to diverge from the current standard
[11:00] <mdke> so what do you say about speed?
[11:00] <jdub> the only one which *may* have currency is the speed stuff, but that's being fixed, and ultimately, even if it's a tad slower, t
[11:00] <mdke> in the light of my last comment
[11:00] <jdub> ot
[11:00] <mdke> fixed is a loose word
[11:00] <jdub> it's not worth the inconsistency
[11:00] <mdke> that's the difference between us
[11:01] <mdke> i think it is, because I don't think the inconsistency is problematic
[11:01] <mdke> indeed I think that customising only the ubuntu specific docs has advantages
[11:01] <jdub> well that's a problem that we need to work through
[11:01] <jdub> continuing to think about the ubuntu docs team as a project to work on ubuntu docs is not optimal
[11:01] <mdke> ?
[11:02] <mdke> oh i see
[11:02] <LaserJock> could we ship both for for now and see how people like it?
[11:02] <mdke> LaserJock, that is what we are doing
[11:02] <jdub> LaserJock: they're both in the current dapper package
[11:02] <LaserJock> right, but can't we let the user's decide so to speak?
[11:02] <jdub> LaserJock: no
[11:02] <mdke> here's the key
[11:03] <jdub> mdke: one of ubuntu's biggest wins is deep integration; that's where we can do our best work
[11:03] <mdke> what we need to do is to ensure that people will use the onboard docs, rather than just websites
[11:03] <jdub> in docs land, i'm seeing more entirely original work than integration, which i think is unfortunate
[11:03] <mdke> heh
[11:03] <jdub> not because it doesn't rock, but because there's so much more we could be achieving
[11:04] <jdub> glue documentation is part of that
[11:04] <jdub> overview documentation is part of that
[11:04] <mdke> this all comes back to that magic email you promised to write about 6 months ago, if I'm not mistaken
[11:04] <jdub> but clearly there are a lot of wins to be had by using what we already have
[11:04] <jdub> which i did
[11:05] <mdke> well I haven't heard a lot about glue documentation or overview documentation before
[11:06] <mdke> sounds good, sure
[11:06] <jdub> that's the stuff that ties everything else (upstream docs) together
[11:06] <jdub> they're not technical terms
[11:06] <mdke> no, i understand what they are
[11:06] <LaserJock> but not ubuntu docs?
[11:07] <LaserJock> or ubuntu docs that glue upstream docs together?
[11:07] <jdub> LaserJock: we're going to need some ubuntu-specific documentation, and i think what we've got so far is focusing on largely the right areas for that
[11:07] <jdub> but by focusing purely on "ubuntu documentation", we're missing out on the holistic approach
[11:07] <jdub> we can't write documentation for everything on our system
[11:08] <LaserJock> ah
[11:08] <mpt> I don't imagine anyone rewriting man pages
[11:08] <jdub> anyway, now this is going into la-la land
[11:08] <mpt> but I do imagine, for example, the Nautilus help being rewritten
[11:08] <jdub> mpt: that wouldn't be an ubuntu doc
[11:08] <mpt> because the upstream is ... beyond words
[11:09] <mpt> (and because it wouldn't occur to people that the file manager was a separate program)
[11:10] <jdub> (also, yelp has two new co-maintainers, which should increase the work being done on it)
[11:10] <mpt> and trying to push such a rewrite upstream would probably piss people off
[11:10] <LaserJock> jdub: I might be just dense here, but what would an example of a gluing doc be?
[11:11] <jdub> LaserJock: "how do i connect to the internet?"
[11:11] <jdub> LaserJock: try answering that with one application document ;-)
[11:11] <jdub> particularly given the man-pages-for-gui-programs docs we have now
[11:11] <mdke> i think we are trying to answer it in the desktopguide
[11:11] <LaserJock> so like the Starter Guide?
[11:11] <jdub> LaserJock: albeit less independent
[11:14] <mpt> (Random note to anyone editing the desktop guide: "Configuring the network" should be called "Connecting to the Internet", and should be in the "Internet" section, not the "Configuring your system" section. Configuring your system is not a goal. Using the Internet is the goal.)
[11:14] <mdke> mpt, mental note made
[11:15] <mpt> (same applies to much of the stuff in the "Configuring your system" section)
[11:16] <jdub> i always misread system as cistern
[11:16] <jdub> which i only very rarely want to configure
[11:17] <jdub> and probably couldn't stomach the documentation
[11:17] <LaserJock> lol
[11:17] <LaserJock> so does Kubuntu use yelp? I assume no
[11:17] <mpt> no, it uses an HTML viewer
[11:22] <LaserJock> btw, should I edit the UbuntuPackagingGuide spec?
[11:26] <mdke> in what way?
[11:26] <LaserJock> add stuff, there is nothing there right now
[11:26] <LaserJock> does it matter?
[11:26] <mdke> sure, if you like
[11:27] <mdke> just point it at the spec you're working on, probably better
[11:27] <LaserJock> what spec? the outline?
[11:27] <mdke> yeah, that's all there is, isn't it?
[11:27] <LaserJock> that is a subpage of the spec
[11:28] <mdke> ah fine
[11:28] <LaserJock> well, I have another resources page
[11:28] <LaserJock> also a subpage
[11:28] <LaserJock> I just didn't want to go mucking about with other peoples stuff
[11:28] <LaserJock> I still haven't gotten the wiki mentality down ;-)
[11:28] <mdke> you can go ahead
[11:30] <LaserJock> k