/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/12/21/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 15 Dec 19:00 UTC: MOTU Meeting | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
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klepashi all03:03
jjessemorning klepas03:03
Madpilotmorning everyone03:03
jsgotangcomorning03:03
klepaspeople not officially involved in the doc team can voice opinions and tag along, right?03:04
jsgotangcoof course03:04
jjesseof course03:04
Madpilot...still dark out here... barely morning at all... :)03:04
jjessegrin 9am here, beautiful snowy december morning03:04
jjesse4 inches over night03:04
=== jsgotangco misses snow
jsgotangcowho's here?03:05
jsgotangcodo we have the numbers to actually hold a meeting?03:05
jjessei'm here03:06
jsgotangcook let's wait a big just in case03:06
jjessedoing an OEM install of Dapper flight2 and have had no issues this monring03:07
jjesseof kubuntu03:07
jsgotangcowow03:07
jsgotangcomine in ubuntu is just borked03:07
jsgotangcoi have yet to burn the image of kubuntu though03:07
jjessei love the boot screen03:07
jsgotangcobut i'll be doing a good number of updates on the quickguide03:08
jjessethough how do you do a screen shot of it to include in the doc?03:08
jsgotangcoyeah03:08
jsgotangcoit'll be great03:08
Madpilotjjesse: with an actual camera? :)03:08
klepas01:08 here03:08
klepasAM :)03:08
klepasand 30 degrees03:08
Madpilot-1 C at 0609 here, and sunrise isn't until 0759... bleh03:09
jsgotangcohmm we don't seem to have the numbers03:10
jsgotangcoMadpilot, -1 C isn't that cold03:10
jjessewhere is everyone?03:10
klepasCanberra, Australia03:10
jsgotangcoklepas, we meant the other team contributors :)03:10
jsgotangcohmm lots posted in the agenda but no one came :)03:11
jjessejsgotangco: for release notes are we updatign just what has changed since the last release?03:12
jsgotangcohave you seen DapperReleaseNotes?03:12
jjesseyeah03:12
jsgotangcothere isn't that much but yeah i should update that this weekend03:12
jjessehave you seen DapperFlight2 ?03:13
jsgotangcoit should get packaged by Flight 303:13
jsgotangcoyeah but thats more of a marketing doc :)03:13
jjesseif somoene lets me know in time i can do a kubuntuflight3 page03:13
jsgotangcobut good nonetheless03:13
jjessethat would liook like that03:13
jsgotangcoits awesome03:13
jsgotangcomatt did good on that one03:13
jsgotangcoactually the flight 2 docs are very VERY good03:13
jjesseyeah but it would have been cool to have a Kubuntu one ready as well :(03:14
jsgotangcoyeah let's fix that03:14
jsgotangcomdke seems to have convered good on ubuntu03:14
jsgotangcoDRAKE IS A DRAGON AND KUBUNTU HAS A KONQUI03:14
jsgotangco=)03:14
jjessecackle03:15
jjesseklepas: did you have something you wanted to share?03:15
jsgotangcoklepas, yeah dude good time to do so03:15
jsgotangcoMadpilot, what happened to Burgy?03:15
jsgotangcowork perhaps03:15
jsgotangco?03:15
Madpilotjsgotangco: he's a lazy SOB? ;)03:16
jsgotangcohaha03:16
jsgotangcoMadpilot, how's docbook treating you?03:16
jjesseMadpilot: stupid question you are working on???03:16
MadpilotI'm not swearing at it quite as much 03:16
Madpilotjjesse: I just did the BitTorrent entry for common-tasks.xml - not sure if that patch has been applied yet though03:17
jsgotangcoyeah it can be a bitch sometimes03:17
MadpilotI posted it to the list last night03:17
jjesseMadpilot: i just get confused on who is working on what :)03:17
jsgotangcoMadpilot, i'll patch it now03:17
klepasjsgotangco: sorry03:17
klepasmultitasking03:17
=== jsgotangco searches for the patch
Madpilotjjesse: you still available for Sunday's Desktop Guide meeting?03:18
jsgotangcowe have a desktop meeting?03:19
jsgotangcoWE'RE NOT IDIOTS UNLIKE YOU GUYS03:19
jsgotangcohaha03:19
jsgotangcojoke03:19
Madpilotwe've been talking about one for Sunday - 1700 UTC I think03:19
jjessei should be available03:20
jjessehmm i'm -5 UTC so i should be out of church by then03:20
jsgotangcoMadpilot, slobs didn't apply your patch =)03:21
MadpilotI didn't think it had gone in yet03:22
jjessedidn't see it come across03:22
MadpilotI sent the email about 8hrs ago now...03:22
jsgotangcono worries03:23
jsgotangcoMadpilot, next time we'll guarantee your patch gets applied in 2 hours or your money back =)03:23
Madpilot:P03:23
jjessei'll double your money if its not applied03:24
jsgotangcoand will even topup a fresh commit account03:24
jsgotangcolol03:24
Madpilothmmm... if we're not going to have an actual meeting, maybe we should stop filling the -meeting logs here and head back to -doc?03:25
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jsgotangcospeak of the devils03:26
jsgotangcoholy diff errors Madpilot 03:26
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Madpilotjsgotangco: hmm? what's up?03:27
=== jsgotangco reverts the doc first
mdkehello all03:27
jsgotangcoits been a while since i patched the docs here better let mdke do it :)03:27
=== jsgotangco should familiarize himself with the svn again
jsgotangcolots of xref issues03:28
mdkejsgotangco, validate the desktopguide.xml03:28
jsgotangcoohhhh03:28
jsgotangcoMadpilot, see?03:28
jsgotangco=)03:28
jsgotangcoahh03:29
jsgotangcono issue then =)03:29
mdkeany meeting action?03:29
jsgotangconot so much we were waiting for the o great packager =)03:29
Nafallowhat meeting? :-)03:29
mdkeNafallo, topic?03:30
jsgotangcomdke, we got lots in the agenda but no bhuvan03:30
mdkehmm03:31
mdkerob1?03:31
Nafalloah03:31
mdkedholbach, around?03:31
mdkeRiddell, around?03:32
Riddellalways baby03:32
mdkeheh, yeah true03:32
jsgotangcoMadpilot, applied! 10 brownie points added =)03:32
mdkewell how about we deal with a few agenda items?03:32
mdkethe first two have been around way too long03:33
Madpilotjsgotangco: thanks03:33
jjesseback sorrry03:33
mdkedholbach, Riddell, has any progress been made on the "single source for (k)ubuntu-docs" issue?03:33
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Riddellmdke: not to my knowledge03:34
jsgotangcojjesse, whoa that was fast03:34
mdkeRiddell, any strong views either way?03:35
mdkeit would be nice, but I have no feel for the difficulty/triviality of what it would take03:35
Riddellmdke: I think it would still be nice since it would stop us having to do externals to the generic documents in kubuntu, but it's not a major issue03:35
Riddellwouldn't be that difficult, just takes doing03:35
jsgotangcowhaddaya mean single source?03:35
Riddelland I don't have time for it03:35
mdkejsgotangco, building both packages from the same source package03:36
jsgotangcoright03:36
mdkeRiddell, right, I suggest we remove this from the agenda and I'll take it up with Daniel when I next encounter him. If we can do it, we will. otherwise, in the meantime, shall we put the external back?03:36
Riddellyes, I'll probably do that today03:37
mdkegreat03:37
mdkeok that issue is dealt with03:37
mdkeagenda item 1 is "toolchain for kubuntu docs". this was about using meinproc for building kubuntu docs03:38
jjessei think we left that as undecided last time we tlaked about it on the mailing list03:38
mdkeyeah03:38
mdkeafaict I was the only one with an objection to this, so I'm happy to stand aside and for us to continue using meinproc, if no one else objects03:39
=== jsgotangco has no experience with it but heard its pretty good
Riddelljsgotangco: it lacks xincludes is the problm03:39
Riddellproblem03:39
jsgotangcoahhh03:39
mdkeoh yeah crap forgot about that03:39
Riddellso it means that generic docs can't use xincludes03:39
mdkeand the kubuntu docs can't either03:39
Riddellwell nobody objects if edit kubuntu docs :)03:40
Riddellif I edit03:40
mdkeno, but if people want to work on both, they'll have to get used to two different procedures, which is a shame03:41
mdkeplus you've got the fact that include/excluding external things from translations is easier with xincludes03:41
jjesseif it is easier for translations will that make kubuntu docs more easily available in rosetta?03:42
mdkejjesse, we can make them available in rosetta anyway, but it is more difficult to specify what to include and what to exclude when you're dealing with entities rather than xincludes03:43
jjessenow i don't totally understand it, but wouldn't it be easier to just keep it simple?03:43
mdkewell meinproc also has some advantages, as Riddell posted. So it's a question of balancing up.03:44
Riddelllike working with KDE :)03:45
mdkeRiddell, well i have few doubts that we can make the html docs built with the other tool work with kde too03:45
mdkethe styling is certainly not a problem.03:46
mdkethe issues were something to do with compression, right?03:47
Riddellcompression and splitting up into .html files03:48
mdkexsltproc splits up into .html files too03:48
mdkecan the compression be done manually, or not at all?03:48
Riddellit can be done manually03:52
Riddellit would just take a lot of hassle with the style sheets and scripting03:52
mdkeRiddell, well I think it should be your call, but I'm really pretty against having to remove xincludes from the generic docs03:54
mdkeis there literally no way meinproc will be happy with xincludes?03:54
RiddellI don't have time to do anything other than meinproc03:55
Riddellno, it doesn't support them03:55
jjesseRiddell or mdke is it somthing that one of you could teach me to do so i could take care of it?03:55
jjesseor is it just faster to do it your self?03:56
Riddellfaster not to do it :)03:56
mdkewell given that the breezy package didn't use meinproc, it wouldn't be very difficult to revert to that system03:56
mdkethe question is, how bad are the breezy kubuntu docs?03:57
jjessebad packaging wise?03:57
mdkeyeah, obviously not content wise03:57
mdkeare the stylesheets ok?03:57
Riddellyou'd need to edit the KDE stylesheet to generate separate .html files then glue them all together with <FILENAME=foo> then compress them03:57
Riddellthey're not valid HTML03:57
mdkewhy not?03:58
mdkehow about we use the standard docbook-xsl stylesheets, and apply the kde css, like we do for ubuntu-docs?03:58
mdkewould that help?03:58
Riddellall the <FILENAME=foo> stuff is in there03:58
Riddellno, the kde css is designed for the KDE xsl03:59
mdkeRiddell, well it's not like it's complex css. It is basically just a few colours, I'm sure we can make any necessary tweaks04:00
Riddellgo ahead, as I say I've no time for it :04:00
Riddell:)04:00
mdkeagain, ubuntu-docs looks ok (imo)04:00
mdkeor if it doesn't, it will04:00
jsgotangcogo go go mdke !04:00
mdke?04:01
mdketell you what04:01
mdkei'll try and knock something up, and we can see what it looks like04:01
mdkeRiddell, is meinproc actively developed? can we bitch at someone about supporting xincludes?04:04
Riddelli don't think it's been developed for some time, hopefully it'll go away for kde 404:05
mdkehmm04:06
mdkewell the ubuntu-docs stuff is definitely valid (x)html, so I'll try and knock something up that you're happy with04:06
Riddellgroovy04:08
mdkeanyone else still here?04:09
jjessei am04:09
mdkeany agenda items you'd like to discuss?04:10
jsgotangcommm04:10
jjessenot really, i know a group of us are getting together sunday for a desktop guide mtg04:10
jsgotangcowe're going to update kubuntu doc soon04:10
mdkecool04:10
jsgotangcojjesse, but we're not part of *that* group =)04:10
mdkei'd definitely like to discuss the xml/html question. There has been almost no discussion on the list about this :(04:11
=== jsgotangco trolls
mdkeproposal was http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html04:11
jsgotangcomdke, i really like the way you did for flight 2 packaging both04:11
mdkewith the exception of a thumbs up from mpt, I've seen no real response04:11
jsgotangcobecause of that we can easily compare what is better or not04:11
mdkecool04:12
mdkeany views?04:12
mdkeI'm 100% in favour of html04:12
jsgotangcotranslation issues?04:12
mdkethere are no translation issues04:12
mdkeobviously we'd continue to write in xml04:12
mdkethe translations would be fine04:12
Madpilotso we'd continue to write in Docbook XML, but ship the converted HTML?04:13
mdkethat is the proposal yeah04:13
=== mdke thinks Madpilot would prefer not to write in docbook :)
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jsgotangcoyes04:13
MadpilotI'm getting slightly more used to it :) but HTML is so much easier & less verbose04:14
mhzjsgotangco: offered to make my ODP into docbook for edubuntu, so I'll start docing finally04:14
mhzthx jsgotangco 04:14
mdkeMadpilot, but more inflexible :(04:14
=== mhz wrote that regarding translations :)
mdkeso any views on the proposal?04:14
jjessei would prefer to continue to write in docbook, i've leared enough of it to continue using04:14
jsgotangcomhz, i dunno about translation the current doc that'll mean rewriting code04:15
Madpilotmdke: yeah, I know why Docbook is in use - there are actual good reasons04:15
jsgotangcomhz, it would be ok if its a new doc though04:15
mdkeyep04:15
jsgotangcobut not an existing one04:15
mhzjsgotangco: okis, no prob.04:15
mhzeven easier then04:15
jsgotangcomhz, translating an existing work is much easier (go to rosetta)04:15
mdkeMadpilot, jsgotangco, jjesse, any views on the proposal04:15
mdke?04:15
mhzindeed04:15
jsgotangcoi like the html css at the moment04:16
mdkeme too, and the speed04:16
jsgotangcoits basically moz rendering right?04:16
mdkeyep04:16
jsgotangcoeven better04:16
mdkeyelp renders in html anyway04:16
mdkebut if we ship in xml, it has to do the conversion on-the-fly04:16
mdkewhereas if we ship html, we do it at the build04:16
mdkehence the speed difference04:17
jjesseas i don't understand the packaging/rendering process the greatest yet, need to learn it, as long as i keep editing the docs in docbook format it shouldn't matter to me what we render in04:17
jjesseand i have never looked at the ubuntu-docs in gnome, haven't used ubuntu so i can't comment on how yelp loos04:17
mdkefair enough04:17
jsgotangcoyeah but you have to admit, yelp has improved on speed, but still not good enough04:17
mdkeyelp is fairly quick at displaying html, just slow with xml, understadably04:18
Madpilotany idea when Yelp is going to get search functions?04:18
mdkeMadpilot, no, but it doesn't make a difference to this issue, because yelp will be the help viewer, regardless of what we decide04:18
jsgotangcoi believe upstream already has it04:18
jsgotangcoMadpilot, oh wait sorry, i meant Printing support04:19
jsgotangcoRAD04:19
mdkeo.o04:19
mdkeas jjesse said the other day, printing support is the most basic function ever04:20
mdkeit really should have had that ages ago ;)04:20
Madpilotmdke: that's the last major piece of functionality missing from Yelp, so I was just wondering - as for HTML/XML, shipping HTML = faster rendering, which is rarely a bad thing...04:20
jjesseand search04:20
jsgotangcokhelpcenter had that years ago04:20
mdkeMadpilot, yeah, i don't really see any advantage in shipping xml04:21
jsgotangcoits l337!04:21
mdkealso, the serverguide really has to be in html04:22
mdkebecause many servers won't have an xml viewer04:22
jjesseor viewable in text? if i don't have a gui installed :)04:22
jsgotangcobah! we only need vi!04:22
jjesseemacs04:22
mdkejjesse, yeah that's what I mean, html is viewable easily from the command line,  xml isn't04:22
mdkeany more views on this item?04:23
jjessenope04:23
jsgotangcobundle qemacs04:23
jsgotangcolol04:23
jjessenano04:23
jsgotangcojjesse, qemacs renders docbook :P04:24
jjesseah04:24
mdkesome more agenda items?04:24
mdke Cleaning unnecessary/unmaintained documents from svn repository (Bhuvan)04:24
mdke?04:24
jjessei think i took care of the kubuntu docs04:24
jsgotangcodon't clean up too much yet :)04:24
mdkei have no objection to removing documents which are unmaintained and are no further use04:24
mdkejsgotangco, what about edubuntu, what shall we do with that?04:25
jsgotangcostay it for a while, i'm observing current work in bzr04:25
jsgotangcoas well my upstream gnome doc04:25
jsgotangcopromised mvo will update it next week04:25
jsgotangcobefore we move it to his rep04:25
mdkecan't that be hosted in gnome cvs?04:25
jsgotangcobecause g-a-i will have a massive change04:26
jsgotangcosure04:26
jsgotangcolet me piggyback for a week more =)04:26
mdkeok we'll leave ubuntu/upstream/gai04:26
mdkewhat about update-manager?04:26
jsgotangconot so sure if that is being updated04:26
mdkepresumably this is upstream already?04:26
jsgotangcoit was sean's doc 04:26
jsgotangcocan't say04:26
jsgotangcoi could check04:26
mdkethat would be good04:27
jsgotangcothey don't eat that much space anyways04:27
mdketrue04:27
jsgotangcountil i verify i'll take responsibiility for the two04:27
mdkeok04:27
mdkei don't think saving space in there is a high priority04:27
jsgotangconahh04:27
mdkedaniel recently wrote a script to reduce the size of the source tarball by excluding anything that isn't used04:27
mdkethat has cut it down from 30 to 10MB04:28
jsgotangcowow04:28
jsgotangcohe can really conjure voodoo huh04:28
mdke:)04:28
mdkejsgotangco, what about your accessibility agenda item?04:28
jsgotangcowell i haven't started that much on it yet but we decided to go wiki first04:32
jsgotangcoonce we clean it up, the a11y team can decide if its going in04:32
mdkeok04:32
mdkethat was easy04:32
jsgotangcoso far we're doing good on a11y04:32
mdkegood04:32
mdkeok as for the 2 remaining items04:33
mdkethe updating the status reports, I think just need to be worked on, we don't need to discuss it, unless anyone wants to04:33
mdkethe sharing of prefaces, we can talk about on sunday IMO04:33
mdkesince it is very much a faqguide issue04:34
jsgotangcowhats on sunday?04:34
mdkefaqguide/desktopguide04:34
mdkejsgotangco, a meeting about the desktopguide04:34
jsgotangcooh04:34
=== jsgotangco havent been attentive to emails lately
mdketoo busy :)04:34
jsgotangcoincredibly04:34
=== jsgotangco has a contract at the moment with IOSN
mdkeoh04:35
mdkehow about another agenda item04:35
mdkecommit access for Madpilot?04:35
mdkegets the +1 from me04:35
jsgotangcome too04:35
jsgotangcomdke, www.iosn.net04:35
MadpilotI'm not a Member yet - planning on that for Jan.04:35
mdkeoh god this bloody member rule04:36
jsgotangcoMadpilot, you're a shoo-in04:36
jsgotangcomdke, =)04:36
mdkepah04:36
mdkei miss ONE meeting, and you guys make this stupid rule ;)04:36
jsgotangcobah we had good quorum and a majority of devs04:36
=== mdke shakes head sadly
Madpilotthe exact time still hasn't been annoucned for the the Dec. 20th CC meeting - if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make that and put my name down beforehand04:37
mdkegah04:38
Madpilotif it's going to be 2200Z, I'll be at work, I'm afraid...04:38
mdkedon't they do them at 2000?04:38
jsgotangcoyikes!04:38
mdkeit is much more difficult for doc team contributors to get membership without having commit access first :(04:39
mdkeMadpilot is going to have to wait until february or so before we can add him...04:39
jsgotangcojdub's wife is also getting active in iosn04:39
Madpilotmdke: I'll just keep spamming the list with patches until then - and complaining about XML :P04:40
mdkeMadpilot, ok, we'll keep applying em04:40
mdkemeeting adjourned?04:40
jsgotangcosure04:41
jsgotangcowe got good mileage really04:41
mdkeok04:41
jsgotangcowhy was the last meeting cancelled?04:41
mdkeno one turned up04:41
jsgotangcoeh?04:41
jsgotangcowell i was in seoul...04:41
=== jsgotangco remembered telling people...
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=== mvo whistles
=== seb128 hugs mvo
seb128where is herr holbach?05:05
mvoseb128: I talked to him some minutes ago, he should be here any minute05:08
seb128k05:08
mvoseb128: how is your reading going? what book are you? and where :) ?05:09
seb128I've not read, as usual when starting IRC, got stuff to do :p05:09
Nafallodholbach says that he can't connect to freenode.05:09
seb128I was going to when I remembered the meeting was 20 min later05:09
mvowhat is the nice of j5 on irc? is it j5 :) ?05:10
seb128yep05:10
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dholbachhi05:11
dholbachsorry, i'm late05:11
dholbachjust couldn't connect to freenode05:11
Nafallowelcome back dholbach :-)05:11
=== dholbach looks around him, says "home" :)
jsgotangcooh desktop meeting eh?05:12
seb128lol05:13
dholbachso who's here for the desktop team meeting :)05:13
mvoahhhh05:13
mvowelcome dholbach !05:14
dholbachyou were waiting for me?05:14
dholbachi'm so touched05:14
seb128yep05:14
mvosure05:14
=== dholbach sniffs
=== dholbach is Daniel Holbach
=== jsgotangco would love to be part of the gnome love
dholbachok05:14
=== dholbach looks at the Meeting Agenda
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas05:15
dholbachso what do we have achieved since the last time?05:15
seb128UDN05:15
seb128thanks vuntz :)05:15
dholbachyeah, that was a blast05:15
seb128now we have lot of new people on the list05:15
seb128time to have rocking ideas on make the list active :)05:15
dholbachwe should really focus on getting our crazy ideas to the list asap05:16
seb128yep05:16
dholbachbut it seems to hard to convert ourselves from the irc-centric approach we take, no? :)05:16
dholbachmvo for example could take the discussion about dbus/notify there05:16
=== Nafallo will have to read the minutes. girlfriend is demanding today...
=== mvo is michael vogt
=== seb128 is seb128
dholbachbecause that will something that will affect huge parts and if we can discuss it and get people involved05:17
mvowe will need to recompile a bit for both main and universe, seb128 already prepared a list for main05:18
seb12823 packages for main05:18
seb128let me run it on universe05:18
dholbach62+46 all in all (-1-1 and glib-1-1)05:18
=== seb128 kicks dholbach for saying crap :p
seb12819 for universe05:19
seb12823 for main05:19
mvoseb128: do you use grep-dctrl? 05:19
seb128grep-available in fact05:19
seb128with some | | to get source packages instead of binary05:19
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dholbachmvo: do you think there will be lots to patch?05:20
mvoso far everything compiled05:20
mvobut I'm not 100% sure05:20
dholbachcool05:21
mvowe may run into some issues05:21
seb128is there a way to remove '\n' ?05:21
mvootoh gnome is going to depend on it for 2.14 anyway, no?05:21
seb128ie: for a file05:21
seb128105:21
seb128205:21
seb128to cat it | sed 's#\n##' or something05:21
dholbachseb128: sorry, dunno05:24
dholbachmvo: we could write a mail to u-d-a and just go with it in a big upload over a weekend, so there's no (too big) breakage :)05:24
seb128yeah, tr works for that :p05:26
seb128"avahi banshee gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-user-share gpe-contacts gpsd libgalago libipoddevice liferea network-manager power-manager thoggen totem vlc xchat-gnome xfce4-terminal xfmedia xterminal"05:26
seb128for main05:26
seb128"bluez-pin bluez-utils dbus epiphany-browser evince evolution gnome-applets gnome-utils gnome-vfs2 gnome-volume-manager hal ivman k3b kdebase libgpod libnotify nautilus-cd-burner notification-daemon pmount rhythmbox screem totem update-notifier"05:26
Amaranthwhoa05:26
dholbachthat doesn't look too bad05:26
dholbach:)05:27
seb128those are the source rdepends of libdbus-1-1, 1 is universe, second is main05:27
Amaranthwhat is changing?05:27
Amaranthah05:27
mvonice!05:27
dholbachmvo: ok, so we try the breakage first locally and then shove it to the people?05:29
mvogood plan I think05:29
dholbachcool05:29
seb128mvo: but what happens when new dbus hit the archive?05:30
seb128apps are broken and need a rebuild NOW?05:30
seb128binary package name change?05:30
mvobinary package name changes05:30
mvoso when dbus hits the archive nothing happens05:30
seb128oh, nice05:30
seb128clean transition so05:30
dholbachseb128: we do it the doko way: do a million uploads at once :)05:31
mvobut once we start building the first apps we need to be quick :)05:31
mvoyes05:31
dholbachwe can split up and do it over the weekend or over night :)05:31
seb128what happens if apps built with 2 different versions try to communicate?05:31
mvoof course we first need a building dbus *cough*05:31
Nafallotoday!? :-D05:31
raphinkslomo: could you advocate http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1163 again please?05:31
mvoshock and awe05:31
seb128we get 2 busses and they don't reach each other05:31
seb128or BUM?:)05:31
slomoraphink: wrong channel ;P05:32
mvoin theory it might work, but in reality -> bum05:32
raphinkoops sorry05:32
raphink:(05:32
raphinkhehe05:32
seb128mvo: bum like app crashing?05:32
dholbachseb128: isnt 'boum' the french way of crashing? ;)05:32
seb128or just dbus feature not working fine?05:32
seb128dholbach: yeah, but that's an english meeting :p05:32
seb128haha :)05:32
dholbach:)05:32
mvoI had panel freezes for examples05:33
seb128panel doesn't use dbus05:33
dholbachwe'll see how it works out... a warning on u-d-a should be appropriate :)05:33
seb128see my list :p05:33
mvobut some applets do05:33
seb128applets should not be able to take the panel down05:33
seb128I blame vuntz05:33
dholbach"should" :)05:33
seb128vuntz|away: HERE, NOW :)05:33
dholbachhaha05:34
seb128mvo: anyway, 20 package is no big deal, with 2-3 people on it, it's a matter of one hour05:34
dholbachyeah05:34
sivangdesktop team meeting?05:34
sivangor doc-team ?05:34
dholbachdesktop, still :)05:34
seb128guess?05:34
Nafallothose packages are only main? :-)05:35
dholbachNafallo: universe uploads! :)05:35
Nafallosivang: no, the docteam has to rebuild 20 packages :-)05:35
seb128Nafallo: quite the same number for universe05:35
Nafalloyay! something for me todo :-D05:35
seb128:)05:35
dholbachseb128: we'll set up a wiki page, where everybody can take his share of packages and we organize it, before we actually do it, does that sound smart?05:36
Nafallodholbach: yes oh humble wikigod :-)05:36
seb128that sounds not required for me05:36
dholbachno?05:36
seb12820 packages, I can give 7 to you, 7 to mvo and take 605:36
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dholbachyeah + universe05:36
seb128and we are done in one hour05:36
seb128the transition is small enough to be handled on IRC imho05:37
Nafalloseb128: do you have the list of packages somewhere? :-)05:37
dholbach*nod*05:37
seb128but that's because I don't like to wait for hours on wiki every time I do an upload05:37
seb128if you want to wiki stuff feel free05:37
Nafallogood point ;-)05:37
seb128I'll ping you on IRC to update my uploads :p05:37
dholbachno, but just to share it before we do it :)05:37
dholbachhaha05:37
seb128Nafallo: I copied it like 20 lines up05:37
dholbachapart from dbus/notify we need to discuss how to get the pile of bugs managed - the situation is desparate since flight 205:37
\shseb128: send the universe packages to ubuntu-motu ML :)05:38
dokoseb128: do these packages need changes?05:38
seb128hum, rather like 60 lines now :)05:38
Amaranth11 minutes ago05:38
seb128doko: that's a good point, a few probably05:38
=== sivang apologizes *again* for missing a meeting, there seem to be an exponetionaly growing number of them
seb128Debian is like to have the patches ready though, sjoerd was working on that yesterday05:38
Nafallooh, I've feed universe + screem to apt-get source now ;-)05:38
seb128GNOME is current dbus complient05:39
sivangwhat packages needs work this time nbesides merger etc?05:39
dholbachseb128: cool05:39
seb128mvo: have you tried to rebuild stuff with your new dbus?05:39
mvoseb128: yes, some stuff, hal, pmount, gnome-media, nautilus-cd-burner, evince05:40
seb128need patching?05:40
mvono, build fine so far05:40
seb128good05:40
seb128I was expecting that for GNOME05:40
seb128brb05:41
dholbachcool05:41
Nafalloehm, I get 404 on the dbus orig.tar.gz05:41
dholbachwhere?05:41
Nafallo(apt-proxy -> archive.u.c)05:41
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dholbachhm, might be temporarily05:41
dholbachbut all in all it seems quite straightforward05:42
dholbachas i said before, i'd really like to know, what you guys think about the bug matter05:43
dholbachi think that regular bug days are a good start, but what can we do apart from that?05:44
sivangdbus rebuild? seems fairly easy to do, where the package list? :)05:44
dholbachsivang: please read the backlog, seb posted it05:44
seb128dholbach: bug days like every week or every 2 weeks05:44
seb128but we need people available/responsive the whole day05:45
seb128tracking what people do05:45
sivangdholbach: ok, thanks05:45
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mvohow many people (roughly) attend to bug days?05:45
dholbachi can't really tell05:45
dholbachsince it's quite "new"05:45
dholbachlast time there were like always 10 doing stuff actively at a time05:45
seb128mvo: 10-2005:45
sivangdholbach: what's the approach to not stepping on each ones toes when working on bugs? do you assign them to yourself for that?05:46
seb128sivang: read the backlog05:46
dholbachsivang: no, we don't do that05:46
seb128oh, not speaking about dbus05:46
dholbachwe had categories of bugs mentioned on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay05:46
Nafallodholbach: I can start dropping build-deps on libxdmcp-dev now?05:46
seb128there is enough bug to not step on another one when picking one usually05:46
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dholbachNafallo: if libx11 has built, yes05:46
seb128Nafallo: yeah, was a bad idea to do that05:46
=== sivang reads
dholbachlike UNCONFIRMED ones, NEEDINFO ones, ...05:47
dholbachand people told what they were looking at05:47
seb128Nafallo: fix the issue instead of workaround wrongly half of the world :)05:47
dholbachapart from that, there were people working on MOTU bugs (in malone), other on bugzilla, ...05:47
Nafalloseb128: indeed :-)05:47
dholbachi hope that our call for kubuntu folks, motu folks, other folks will get different people involved, so we can tackle bugs equally05:47
dholbachbut surely, as a desktop team we'd love to see desktop-bugs@ fixed asap :)05:48
dholbachfixed/triaged05:48
dholbachit's a bit hard to get people working on bugs, they don't seem to have a special affiliation to it05:49
seb128yeah, especially distro bugs05:49
seb128we should make "specialized lists"05:49
dholbachseb128: the situation on universe bugs is even worse05:49
dholbachto be frank05:49
seb128like "GNOMish bugs", "KDEish bug", "installer bugs"05:50
seb128dholbach: I'm not quite convinced05:50
dholbachthat might make sense, do you think we should have separate days for those?05:50
seb128maybe not05:50
seb128but have clear list during the bug day05:50
dholbachseb128: if i look at my universe bugs mail box that's the impression i get, they are assigned, but not triaged05:50
seb128so people can focus on what they are interested it05:50
seb128s/it/in/05:50
dholbachyeah05:50
dholbachthat definitely sounds good05:51
seb128dholbach: malone generates a lot of noise05:51
dholbach:)05:51
dholbachyes05:51
seb128I read new bugs on malone quite often since there is no assignee by default05:51
seb128to figure where GNOME bugs are05:51
seb128and most of the flood are your syncs05:51
dholbachi always look at the unassigned list05:51
dholbach... first05:52
dholbachi feel that we need a separate team, maybe we should get t-shirts out to members of the "Ubuntu Bug Squad" :)05:52
dholbachpeople in #ubuntu-bugs surely feel "lost" somehow05:53
dholbachi saw that in the days after the bug day05:53
mvosome sort of reward will certainly motivate05:53
dholbachpeople were getting in and thought "hello, anybody here?"05:53
seb128I was wondering if we should split bug days05:53
dholbachsplit in what way?05:53
seb128like have desktopish triagging on #ubuntu-desktop05:54
dholbachmvo: we should talk to mark about that05:54
seb128instead of #ubuntu-bugs05:54
sivangok, so new dbus version?05:54
sivang:)05:54
dholbachbut that way we will always have bugs not being touched05:54
=== sivang read changlog in the quickest way ever
dholbachsivang: do you have a big irc lag?05:54
dholbachnot meant to be rude, but we're talking bugs atm :)05:55
sivangdholbach: erm , I don't think so - maybe, why?05:55
sivangeh!05:55
sivangno , it's ok - my brain is lagging, not irc05:55
seb128dholbach: right, but we can still have a part of the triage on #ubuntu-bugs05:55
dholbachit might sound stupid, but maybe we should talk bug discussions over there?05:56
dholbachmvo: any idea on those rewards?05:56
dholbachseb128: do you know of other bug teams around the open source world, apart from gnome?05:57
mvot-shirts, a special thanks mail from leading comunity people (like dholbach) 05:57
mvothat sort of thing05:57
dholbachhaha05:57
mvomenitoning on a webpage 05:57
dholbachthat sounds cool yes05:57
seb128dholbach: nop05:57
mvoor a minutes from the bug-day05:57
mvowith special mentinoing etc05:57
=== jsgotangco starts to blog gnome desktop is awesome!
sivangbut people should not do it just for getting some reward or karma, as seb128 once noted. I think he's was right.05:58
dholbachwe should raise more awareness of those people just getting involved05:58
dholbachlike those "everybody look, seb128's first upload to the archive"-mails :)05:58
seb128I didn't say that05:58
seb128reward/karma can motivate people for sure05:59
sivangmaybe we need to have a bugs day report, where people working were mentioned (even if they fixed bugs, of if they did not)05:59
seb128but that's not a reason to make useless stuff only to get karma05:59
dholbachsivang: sure not, but people willing to contribute usually have contributions of good quality05:59
sivangdholbach: agreed05:59
sivangseb128: true05:59
sivangbut t-shirts would be nice :)05:59
=== jsgotangco begs for one
sivangI think that if we care not to make too much distinction between epople the take part in this day, we'll eventually get a nice steady community of bug squad people06:00
dholbachguys, do bug triage!06:00
dholbachi will talk to mark for every t-shirt personally06:00
=== jsgotangco will make sure to bring a poster of dholbach during WWE
sivangjsgotangco: WWE?06:00
dholbacheven if i have to buy them, i'll do it06:00
jsgotangcosivang, world wrestling entertainment heh06:01
sivangeh, :)06:01
dholbachseb128: we should do a nice t-shirt design session and i'll sent them out06:01
dholbachs/sent/send06:01
Nafallojsgotangco: did he win against who? :-)06:01
seb128dholbach: I'm not the guy you want to ping about design stuff :p06:02
dholbachso who of you will get heavily busy with us next week (21st)? and who of you honestly noticed bug day on 21st?06:02
dholbachseb128: thanks... we'll do it just fine :)06:02
dholbachbig silence... sure, i understand... "blah... christmas presents... blah...", sure :)06:03
dholbachif, so if nobody has to say anything, we should move to other topics06:04
seb128move06:04
dholbachwhat do you want to see in the desktop team next? :-)06:05
dholbachpeople seem to have high expectations in the team06:05
dholbach(hence the big amount of subscribers on the list)06:05
dholbachbut it doesnt seem to be clear what people can do06:05
dholbachis that observation accurate?06:05
jsgotangcoyes06:06
seb128use the wiki to put task06:06
seb128don't hesitate to use the list to raise discussion instead of IRC06:06
seb128to ask for new cool stuff, opinion on it, etc06:06
seb128maybe some weekly bug triaging stats06:06
seb128how many bug we got06:06
seb128how many we closed06:07
dholbachmaybe i should do a day with s/#ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-desktop@06:07
seb128the top 5 of bug closers06:07
seb128daily work discussion are not suitable for a list06:07
seb128I think this page is nice: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html06:07
seb128we should have a weekly summary for Ubuntu too06:08
dholbachi just thought about it, but maybe if we could take more of our usual workflow to the mailing list, people would have a "glimpse into what happens everyday"06:08
seb128people like to see how things are going/moving06:08
sivangdholbach++06:08
dholbachwho are our bugzilla experts? jdub?06:08
sivangseb128: but also like to see them logged in a mailing list, when it's easy to go back06:08
seb128dholbach: we already said that, and I tried to mail the list06:08
sivangseb128: oh06:08
seb128I did for the session dialog, gconf changes, asking for the panel launchers and stuff06:08
seb128dholbach: yeah, jdub I guess06:09
dholbachyeah, maybe i didn't try hard enough06:09
dholbachi'll try harder06:09
dholbachnew pages on the wiki, new things we're planning "at some stage", ...06:09
sivangdholbach: make sure you send it to the list as well, and try to create discussion there06:10
dholbachsivang: i was talking about the list06:10
sivangah ok06:10
dholbachthat sounds sound06:10
dholbachmvo: you mail to the list first... dbus / notify stuff! YAY :)06:10
sivangdholbach: you said "wiki pages.." , that's why I Was wondering.06:10
dholbachit was in context to what seb said before06:11
dholbachseb128: you think jdub will make such a weekly-bug-summary happen?06:12
seb128no06:12
dholbach*nod*06:12
=== jsgotangco starts journey to neverneverland
mvodholbach: I first need to make it build again06:12
seb128but it's easy to have some standard queries to get stats and to include that to a weekly mail06:12
seb128like UDN06:12
dholbachmvo: ok06:12
dholbachseb128: i'll look into it06:12
dholbachand set a big reminder every week :)06:13
seb128dholbach: ask vuntz about it, he already did some stat on bugzilla.ubuntu like that06:13
dholbachcool06:13
=== dholbach hugs vuntz in absentia
dholbachare there some other points somebody would like to raise?06:13
dholbachok06:14
dholbachi think for a rather ad-hoc meeting this went quite well06:14
dholbachand it makes me happy to see, that there's always enough to discuss in ubuntu-dektop :)06:14
dholbachif nobody steps up to it, i'll write the minutes06:14
jsgotangco:D06:15
dholbachand send them to ubuntu-desktop@ :)06:15
sivangdholbach: also, make sure you send the stuff about what seb talked in the backlog :)06:15
=== sivang seems to have trouble parsing the backlog correctly.
dholbachhey vuntz06:15
vuntzhey06:15
vuntz:-)06:15
dholbachvuntz: any points you'd like to raise for the desktop meeting06:15
dholbach?06:15
RiddellI have a brief question06:16
dholbachRiddell: fire away06:16
Riddellwhat's the status of gstreamer 0.10 support in apps?06:16
dholbachseb128: :-)06:16
vuntzdholbach: no special points06:17
dholbachvuntz: unspecial ones?06:17
vuntzerr. don't think so :-)06:17
seb128Riddell: for GNOME most of them are ported06:17
vuntzah06:17
vuntzdon't forget to send new stuff on the list or to me so that it can be in UDN06:18
seb128Riddell: we will ship dapper with gst010 no gst08, is that an issue for KDE?06:18
vuntzseb128: we could ship both if necessary06:18
seb128vuntz: what do you think about doing weekly bug stats (how many new bugs, closed, forwarded, top 5 bug closers, etc) (like http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html)?06:18
vuntzseb128: good idea06:18
seb128vuntz: no we can't06:18
vuntzI wanted to add a section like this in UDN, btw06:19
vuntzseb128: why can't we?06:19
Riddellseb128: amarok will probably be ported to gstreamer 0.10 soon, but there's no plans for kaffeine to be currently06:19
seb128vuntz: pitti will track me down :p06:19
dholbachvuntz: great!06:19
seb128vuntz: anti-duplication front :)06:19
vuntzseb128: if KDE needs it, we can06:19
vuntzit doesn't mean GNOME will use it :-)06:19
seb128vuntz: right, but better to not06:19
dholbachthere's a bit of time until release :)06:20
Riddellyeah, I just need to persuade them that they'll look old-fashioned if they still use gstreamer0.806:20
seb128vuntz: depending on what you mean "ship", we will not on the CD for sure06:20
vuntzseb128: not the Ubuntu CD, but if KDE needs it, it can be on the Kubuntu one. Can't it?06:20
dholbachRiddell: haha, that's the best point you can make, for sue :)06:20
vuntzbut I agree it's better to have only 0.1006:20
seb128vuntz: yeah, no issue for that, it just has to be in main06:20
seb128but pitti would be happy if we can move 0.8 to universe06:21
seb128because main means we will have to support it for 3 years06:21
vuntzand everyone would be happy. Not just pitti :-)06:21
seb128and upstream already stopped supporting it06:21
seb128so that's like maintaining it for 3.5 years over upstream06:21
dholbachouch :)06:22
dholbachif that gives answers to the question, we close the meeting, no? :)06:23
dholbachok, meeting closed06:23
dholbachhave a nice day06:24
mvoyep06:24
=== mvo needs dinner now anyway :P
=== dholbach too
dholbachlunch, dinner, whatever06:24
seb128thanks dholbach06:25
dholbachthank YOU!06:25
seb128mvo: at 6pm? that's early! enjou :)06:25
mvoseb128: it only means I can have a late one too :)06:26
vuntzhungry german people06:26
=== sivang awaits the u-desktop thread.
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seb128lamont: could you give a rebuild to evolution-data-server with the fixed libx11 (2:0.99.4-0ubuntu2)06:56
lamontseb128: kicked06:57
seb128thank you06:57
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