[03:03] <klepas> hi all
[03:03] <jjesse> morning klepas
[03:03] <Madpilot> morning everyone
[03:03] <jsgotangco> morning
[03:04] <klepas> people not officially involved in the doc team can voice opinions and tag along, right?
[03:04] <jsgotangco> of course
[03:04] <jjesse> of course
[03:04] <Madpilot> ...still dark out here... barely morning at all... :)
[03:04] <jjesse> grin 9am here, beautiful snowy december morning
[03:04] <jjesse> 4 inches over night
[03:05] <jsgotangco> who's here?
[03:05] <jsgotangco> do we have the numbers to actually hold a meeting?
[03:06] <jjesse> i'm here
[03:06] <jsgotangco> ok let's wait a big just in case
[03:07] <jjesse> doing an OEM install of Dapper flight2 and have had no issues this monring
[03:07] <jjesse> of kubuntu
[03:07] <jsgotangco> wow
[03:07] <jsgotangco> mine in ubuntu is just borked
[03:07] <jsgotangco> i have yet to burn the image of kubuntu though
[03:07] <jjesse> i love the boot screen
[03:08] <jsgotangco> but i'll be doing a good number of updates on the quickguide
[03:08] <jjesse> though how do you do a screen shot of it to include in the doc?
[03:08] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:08] <jsgotangco> it'll be great
[03:08] <Madpilot> jjesse: with an actual camera? :)
[03:08] <klepas> 01:08 here
[03:08] <klepas> AM :)
[03:08] <klepas> and 30 degrees
[03:09] <Madpilot> -1 C at 0609 here, and sunrise isn't until 0759... bleh
[03:10] <jsgotangco> hmm we don't seem to have the numbers
[03:10] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, -1 C isn't that cold
[03:10] <jjesse> where is everyone?
[03:10] <klepas> Canberra, Australia
[03:10] <jsgotangco> klepas, we meant the other team contributors :)
[03:11] <jsgotangco> hmm lots posted in the agenda but no one came :)
[03:12] <jjesse> jsgotangco: for release notes are we updatign just what has changed since the last release?
[03:12] <jsgotangco> have you seen DapperReleaseNotes?
[03:12] <jjesse> yeah
[03:12] <jsgotangco> there isn't that much but yeah i should update that this weekend
[03:13] <jjesse> have you seen DapperFlight2 ?
[03:13] <jsgotangco> it should get packaged by Flight 3
[03:13] <jsgotangco> yeah but thats more of a marketing doc :)
[03:13] <jjesse> if somoene lets me know in time i can do a kubuntuflight3 page
[03:13] <jsgotangco> but good nonetheless
[03:13] <jjesse> that would liook like that
[03:13] <jsgotangco> its awesome
[03:13] <jsgotangco> matt did good on that one
[03:13] <jsgotangco> actually the flight 2 docs are very VERY good
[03:14] <jjesse> yeah but it would have been cool to have a Kubuntu one ready as well :(
[03:14] <jsgotangco> yeah let's fix that
[03:14] <jsgotangco> mdke seems to have convered good on ubuntu
[03:14] <jsgotangco> DRAKE IS A DRAGON AND KUBUNTU HAS A KONQUI
[03:14] <jsgotangco> =)
[03:15] <jjesse> cackle
[03:15] <jjesse> klepas: did you have something you wanted to share?
[03:15] <jsgotangco> klepas, yeah dude good time to do so
[03:15] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, what happened to Burgy?
[03:15] <jsgotangco> work perhaps
[03:15] <jsgotangco> ?
[03:16] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: he's a lazy SOB? ;)
[03:16] <jsgotangco> haha
[03:16] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, how's docbook treating you?
[03:16] <jjesse> Madpilot: stupid question you are working on???
[03:16] <Madpilot> I'm not swearing at it quite as much 
[03:17] <Madpilot> jjesse: I just did the BitTorrent entry for common-tasks.xml - not sure if that patch has been applied yet though
[03:17] <jsgotangco> yeah it can be a bitch sometimes
[03:17] <Madpilot> I posted it to the list last night
[03:17] <jjesse> Madpilot: i just get confused on who is working on what :)
[03:17] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, i'll patch it now
[03:17] <klepas> jsgotangco: sorry
[03:17] <klepas> multitasking
[03:18] <Madpilot> jjesse: you still available for Sunday's Desktop Guide meeting?
[03:19] <jsgotangco> we have a desktop meeting?
[03:19] <jsgotangco> WE'RE NOT IDIOTS UNLIKE YOU GUYS
[03:19] <jsgotangco> haha
[03:19] <jsgotangco> joke
[03:19] <Madpilot> we've been talking about one for Sunday - 1700 UTC I think
[03:20] <jjesse> i should be available
[03:20] <jjesse> hmm i'm -5 UTC so i should be out of church by then
[03:21] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, slobs didn't apply your patch =)
[03:22] <Madpilot> I didn't think it had gone in yet
[03:22] <jjesse> didn't see it come across
[03:22] <Madpilot> I sent the email about 8hrs ago now...
[03:23] <jsgotangco> no worries
[03:23] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, next time we'll guarantee your patch gets applied in 2 hours or your money back =)
[03:23] <Madpilot> :P
[03:24] <jjesse> i'll double your money if its not applied
[03:24] <jsgotangco> and will even topup a fresh commit account
[03:24] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:25] <Madpilot> hmmm... if we're not going to have an actual meeting, maybe we should stop filling the -meeting logs here and head back to -doc?
[03:26] <jsgotangco> speak of the devils
[03:26] <jsgotangco> holy diff errors Madpilot 
[03:27] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: hmm? what's up?
[03:27] <mdke> hello all
[03:27] <jsgotangco> its been a while since i patched the docs here better let mdke do it :)
[03:28] <jsgotangco> lots of xref issues
[03:28] <mdke> jsgotangco, validate the desktopguide.xml
[03:28] <jsgotangco> ohhhh
[03:28] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, see?
[03:28] <jsgotangco> =)
[03:29] <jsgotangco> ahh
[03:29] <jsgotangco> no issue then =)
[03:29] <mdke> any meeting action?
[03:29] <jsgotangco> not so much we were waiting for the o great packager =)
[03:29] <Nafallo> what meeting? :-)
[03:30] <mdke> Nafallo, topic?
[03:30] <jsgotangco> mdke, we got lots in the agenda but no bhuvan
[03:31] <mdke> hmm
[03:31] <mdke> rob1?
[03:31] <Nafallo> ah
[03:31] <mdke> dholbach, around?
[03:32] <mdke> Riddell, around?
[03:32] <Riddell> always baby
[03:32] <mdke> heh, yeah true
[03:32] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, applied! 10 brownie points added =)
[03:32] <mdke> well how about we deal with a few agenda items?
[03:33] <mdke> the first two have been around way too long
[03:33] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: thanks
[03:33] <jjesse> back sorrry
[03:33] <mdke> dholbach, Riddell, has any progress been made on the "single source for (k)ubuntu-docs" issue?
[03:34] <Riddell> mdke: not to my knowledge
[03:34] <jsgotangco> jjesse, whoa that was fast
[03:35] <mdke> Riddell, any strong views either way?
[03:35] <mdke> it would be nice, but I have no feel for the difficulty/triviality of what it would take
[03:35] <Riddell> mdke: I think it would still be nice since it would stop us having to do externals to the generic documents in kubuntu, but it's not a major issue
[03:35] <Riddell> wouldn't be that difficult, just takes doing
[03:35] <jsgotangco> whaddaya mean single source?
[03:35] <Riddell> and I don't have time for it
[03:36] <mdke> jsgotangco, building both packages from the same source package
[03:36] <jsgotangco> right
[03:36] <mdke> Riddell, right, I suggest we remove this from the agenda and I'll take it up with Daniel when I next encounter him. If we can do it, we will. otherwise, in the meantime, shall we put the external back?
[03:37] <Riddell> yes, I'll probably do that today
[03:37] <mdke> great
[03:37] <mdke> ok that issue is dealt with
[03:38] <mdke> agenda item 1 is "toolchain for kubuntu docs". this was about using meinproc for building kubuntu docs
[03:38] <jjesse> i think we left that as undecided last time we tlaked about it on the mailing list
[03:38] <mdke> yeah
[03:39] <mdke> afaict I was the only one with an objection to this, so I'm happy to stand aside and for us to continue using meinproc, if no one else objects
[03:39] <Riddell> jsgotangco: it lacks xincludes is the problm
[03:39] <Riddell> problem
[03:39] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[03:39] <mdke> oh yeah crap forgot about that
[03:39] <Riddell> so it means that generic docs can't use xincludes
[03:39] <mdke> and the kubuntu docs can't either
[03:40] <Riddell> well nobody objects if edit kubuntu docs :)
[03:40] <Riddell> if I edit
[03:41] <mdke> no, but if people want to work on both, they'll have to get used to two different procedures, which is a shame
[03:41] <mdke> plus you've got the fact that include/excluding external things from translations is easier with xincludes
[03:42] <jjesse> if it is easier for translations will that make kubuntu docs more easily available in rosetta?
[03:43] <mdke> jjesse, we can make them available in rosetta anyway, but it is more difficult to specify what to include and what to exclude when you're dealing with entities rather than xincludes
[03:43] <jjesse> now i don't totally understand it, but wouldn't it be easier to just keep it simple?
[03:44] <mdke> well meinproc also has some advantages, as Riddell posted. So it's a question of balancing up.
[03:45] <Riddell> like working with KDE :)
[03:45] <mdke> Riddell, well i have few doubts that we can make the html docs built with the other tool work with kde too
[03:46] <mdke> the styling is certainly not a problem.
[03:47] <mdke> the issues were something to do with compression, right?
[03:48] <Riddell> compression and splitting up into .html files
[03:48] <mdke> xsltproc splits up into .html files too
[03:48] <mdke> can the compression be done manually, or not at all?
[03:52] <Riddell> it can be done manually
[03:52] <Riddell> it would just take a lot of hassle with the style sheets and scripting
[03:54] <mdke> Riddell, well I think it should be your call, but I'm really pretty against having to remove xincludes from the generic docs
[03:54] <mdke> is there literally no way meinproc will be happy with xincludes?
[03:55] <Riddell> I don't have time to do anything other than meinproc
[03:55] <Riddell> no, it doesn't support them
[03:55] <jjesse> Riddell or mdke is it somthing that one of you could teach me to do so i could take care of it?
[03:56] <jjesse> or is it just faster to do it your self?
[03:56] <Riddell> faster not to do it :)
[03:56] <mdke> well given that the breezy package didn't use meinproc, it wouldn't be very difficult to revert to that system
[03:57] <mdke> the question is, how bad are the breezy kubuntu docs?
[03:57] <jjesse> bad packaging wise?
[03:57] <mdke> yeah, obviously not content wise
[03:57] <mdke> are the stylesheets ok?
[03:57] <Riddell> you'd need to edit the KDE stylesheet to generate separate .html files then glue them all together with <FILENAME=foo> then compress them
[03:57] <Riddell> they're not valid HTML
[03:58] <mdke> why not?
[03:58] <mdke> how about we use the standard docbook-xsl stylesheets, and apply the kde css, like we do for ubuntu-docs?
[03:58] <mdke> would that help?
[03:58] <Riddell> all the <FILENAME=foo> stuff is in there
[03:59] <Riddell> no, the kde css is designed for the KDE xsl
[04:00] <mdke> Riddell, well it's not like it's complex css. It is basically just a few colours, I'm sure we can make any necessary tweaks
[04:00] <Riddell> go ahead, as I say I've no time for it :
[04:00] <Riddell> :)
[04:00] <mdke> again, ubuntu-docs looks ok (imo)
[04:00] <mdke> or if it doesn't, it will
[04:00] <jsgotangco> go go go mdke !
[04:01] <mdke> ?
[04:01] <mdke> tell you what
[04:01] <mdke> i'll try and knock something up, and we can see what it looks like
[04:04] <mdke> Riddell, is meinproc actively developed? can we bitch at someone about supporting xincludes?
[04:05] <Riddell> i don't think it's been developed for some time, hopefully it'll go away for kde 4
[04:06] <mdke> hmm
[04:06] <mdke> well the ubuntu-docs stuff is definitely valid (x)html, so I'll try and knock something up that you're happy with
[04:08] <Riddell> groovy
[04:09] <mdke> anyone else still here?
[04:09] <jjesse> i am
[04:10] <mdke> any agenda items you'd like to discuss?
[04:10] <jsgotangco> mmm
[04:10] <jjesse> not really, i know a group of us are getting together sunday for a desktop guide mtg
[04:10] <jsgotangco> we're going to update kubuntu doc soon
[04:10] <mdke> cool
[04:10] <jsgotangco> jjesse, but we're not part of *that* group =)
[04:11] <mdke> i'd definitely like to discuss the xml/html question. There has been almost no discussion on the list about this :(
[04:11] <mdke> proposal was http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
[04:11] <jsgotangco> mdke, i really like the way you did for flight 2 packaging both
[04:11] <mdke> with the exception of a thumbs up from mpt, I've seen no real response
[04:11] <jsgotangco> because of that we can easily compare what is better or not
[04:12] <mdke> cool
[04:12] <mdke> any views?
[04:12] <mdke> I'm 100% in favour of html
[04:12] <jsgotangco> translation issues?
[04:12] <mdke> there are no translation issues
[04:12] <mdke> obviously we'd continue to write in xml
[04:12] <mdke> the translations would be fine
[04:13] <Madpilot> so we'd continue to write in Docbook XML, but ship the converted HTML?
[04:13] <mdke> that is the proposal yeah
[04:13] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:14] <Madpilot> I'm getting slightly more used to it :) but HTML is so much easier & less verbose
[04:14] <mhz> jsgotangco: offered to make my ODP into docbook for edubuntu, so I'll start docing finally
[04:14] <mhz> thx jsgotangco 
[04:14] <mdke> Madpilot, but more inflexible :(
[04:14] <mdke> so any views on the proposal?
[04:14] <jjesse> i would prefer to continue to write in docbook, i've leared enough of it to continue using
[04:15] <jsgotangco> mhz, i dunno about translation the current doc that'll mean rewriting code
[04:15] <Madpilot> mdke: yeah, I know why Docbook is in use - there are actual good reasons
[04:15] <jsgotangco> mhz, it would be ok if its a new doc though
[04:15] <mdke> yep
[04:15] <jsgotangco> but not an existing one
[04:15] <mhz> jsgotangco: okis, no prob.
[04:15] <mhz> even easier then
[04:15] <jsgotangco> mhz, translating an existing work is much easier (go to rosetta)
[04:15] <mdke> Madpilot, jsgotangco, jjesse, any views on the proposal
[04:15] <mdke> ?
[04:15] <mhz> indeed
[04:16] <jsgotangco> i like the html css at the moment
[04:16] <mdke> me too, and the speed
[04:16] <jsgotangco> its basically moz rendering right?
[04:16] <mdke> yep
[04:16] <jsgotangco> even better
[04:16] <mdke> yelp renders in html anyway
[04:16] <mdke> but if we ship in xml, it has to do the conversion on-the-fly
[04:16] <mdke> whereas if we ship html, we do it at the build
[04:17] <mdke> hence the speed difference
[04:17] <jjesse> as i don't understand the packaging/rendering process the greatest yet, need to learn it, as long as i keep editing the docs in docbook format it shouldn't matter to me what we render in
[04:17] <jjesse> and i have never looked at the ubuntu-docs in gnome, haven't used ubuntu so i can't comment on how yelp loos
[04:17] <mdke> fair enough
[04:17] <jsgotangco> yeah but you have to admit, yelp has improved on speed, but still not good enough
[04:18] <mdke> yelp is fairly quick at displaying html, just slow with xml, understadably
[04:18] <Madpilot> any idea when Yelp is going to get search functions?
[04:18] <mdke> Madpilot, no, but it doesn't make a difference to this issue, because yelp will be the help viewer, regardless of what we decide
[04:18] <jsgotangco> i believe upstream already has it
[04:19] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, oh wait sorry, i meant Printing support
[04:19] <jsgotangco> RAD
[04:19] <mdke> o.o
[04:20] <mdke> as jjesse said the other day, printing support is the most basic function ever
[04:20] <mdke> it really should have had that ages ago ;)
[04:20] <Madpilot> mdke: that's the last major piece of functionality missing from Yelp, so I was just wondering - as for HTML/XML, shipping HTML = faster rendering, which is rarely a bad thing...
[04:20] <jjesse> and search
[04:20] <jsgotangco> khelpcenter had that years ago
[04:21] <mdke> Madpilot, yeah, i don't really see any advantage in shipping xml
[04:21] <jsgotangco> its l337!
[04:22] <mdke> also, the serverguide really has to be in html
[04:22] <mdke> because many servers won't have an xml viewer
[04:22] <jjesse> or viewable in text? if i don't have a gui installed :)
[04:22] <jsgotangco> bah! we only need vi!
[04:22] <jjesse> emacs
[04:22] <mdke> jjesse, yeah that's what I mean, html is viewable easily from the command line,  xml isn't
[04:23] <mdke> any more views on this item?
[04:23] <jjesse> nope
[04:23] <jsgotangco> bundle qemacs
[04:23] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:23] <jjesse> nano
[04:24] <jsgotangco> jjesse, qemacs renders docbook :P
[04:24] <jjesse> ah
[04:24] <mdke> some more agenda items?
[04:24] <mdke>  Cleaning unnecessary/unmaintained documents from svn repository (Bhuvan)
[04:24] <mdke> ?
[04:24] <jjesse> i think i took care of the kubuntu docs
[04:24] <jsgotangco> don't clean up too much yet :)
[04:24] <mdke> i have no objection to removing documents which are unmaintained and are no further use
[04:25] <mdke> jsgotangco, what about edubuntu, what shall we do with that?
[04:25] <jsgotangco> stay it for a while, i'm observing current work in bzr
[04:25] <jsgotangco> as well my upstream gnome doc
[04:25] <jsgotangco> promised mvo will update it next week
[04:25] <jsgotangco> before we move it to his rep
[04:25] <mdke> can't that be hosted in gnome cvs?
[04:26] <jsgotangco> because g-a-i will have a massive change
[04:26] <jsgotangco> sure
[04:26] <jsgotangco> let me piggyback for a week more =)
[04:26] <mdke> ok we'll leave ubuntu/upstream/gai
[04:26] <mdke> what about update-manager?
[04:26] <jsgotangco> not so sure if that is being updated
[04:26] <mdke> presumably this is upstream already?
[04:26] <jsgotangco> it was sean's doc 
[04:26] <jsgotangco> can't say
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i could check
[04:27] <mdke> that would be good
[04:27] <jsgotangco> they don't eat that much space anyways
[04:27] <mdke> true
[04:27] <jsgotangco> until i verify i'll take responsibiility for the two
[04:27] <mdke> ok
[04:27] <mdke> i don't think saving space in there is a high priority
[04:27] <jsgotangco> nahh
[04:27] <mdke> daniel recently wrote a script to reduce the size of the source tarball by excluding anything that isn't used
[04:28] <mdke> that has cut it down from 30 to 10MB
[04:28] <jsgotangco> wow
[04:28] <jsgotangco> he can really conjure voodoo huh
[04:28] <mdke> :)
[04:28] <mdke> jsgotangco, what about your accessibility agenda item?
[04:32] <jsgotangco> well i haven't started that much on it yet but we decided to go wiki first
[04:32] <jsgotangco> once we clean it up, the a11y team can decide if its going in
[04:32] <mdke> ok
[04:32] <mdke> that was easy
[04:32] <jsgotangco> so far we're doing good on a11y
[04:32] <mdke> good
[04:33] <mdke> ok as for the 2 remaining items
[04:33] <mdke> the updating the status reports, I think just need to be worked on, we don't need to discuss it, unless anyone wants to
[04:33] <mdke> the sharing of prefaces, we can talk about on sunday IMO
[04:34] <mdke> since it is very much a faqguide issue
[04:34] <jsgotangco> whats on sunday?
[04:34] <mdke> faqguide/desktopguide
[04:34] <mdke> jsgotangco, a meeting about the desktopguide
[04:34] <jsgotangco> oh
[04:34] <mdke> too busy :)
[04:34] <jsgotangco> incredibly
[04:35] <mdke> oh
[04:35] <mdke> how about another agenda item
[04:35] <mdke> commit access for Madpilot?
[04:35] <mdke> gets the +1 from me
[04:35] <jsgotangco> me too
[04:35] <jsgotangco> mdke, www.iosn.net
[04:35] <Madpilot> I'm not a Member yet - planning on that for Jan.
[04:36] <mdke> oh god this bloody member rule
[04:36] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, you're a shoo-in
[04:36] <jsgotangco> mdke, =)
[04:36] <mdke> pah
[04:36] <mdke> i miss ONE meeting, and you guys make this stupid rule ;)
[04:36] <jsgotangco> bah we had good quorum and a majority of devs
[04:37] <Madpilot> the exact time still hasn't been annoucned for the the Dec. 20th CC meeting - if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make that and put my name down beforehand
[04:38] <mdke> gah
[04:38] <Madpilot> if it's going to be 2200Z, I'll be at work, I'm afraid...
[04:38] <mdke> don't they do them at 2000?
[04:38] <jsgotangco> yikes!
[04:39] <mdke> it is much more difficult for doc team contributors to get membership without having commit access first :(
[04:39] <mdke> Madpilot is going to have to wait until february or so before we can add him...
[04:39] <jsgotangco> jdub's wife is also getting active in iosn
[04:40] <Madpilot> mdke: I'll just keep spamming the list with patches until then - and complaining about XML :P
[04:40] <mdke> Madpilot, ok, we'll keep applying em
[04:40] <mdke> meeting adjourned?
[04:41] <jsgotangco> sure
[04:41] <jsgotangco> we got good mileage really
[04:41] <mdke> ok
[04:41] <jsgotangco> why was the last meeting cancelled?
[04:41] <mdke> no one turned up
[04:41] <jsgotangco> eh?
[04:41] <jsgotangco> well i was in seoul...
[05:05] <seb128> where is herr holbach?
[05:08] <mvo> seb128: I talked to him some minutes ago, he should be here any minute
[05:08] <seb128> k
[05:09] <mvo> seb128: how is your reading going? what book are you? and where :) ?
[05:09] <seb128> I've not read, as usual when starting IRC, got stuff to do :p
[05:09] <Nafallo> dholbach says that he can't connect to freenode.
[05:09] <seb128> I was going to when I remembered the meeting was 20 min later
[05:10] <mvo> what is the nice of j5 on irc? is it j5 :) ?
[05:10] <seb128> yep
[05:11] <dholbach> hi
[05:11] <dholbach> sorry, i'm late
[05:11] <dholbach> just couldn't connect to freenode
[05:11] <Nafallo> welcome back dholbach :-)
[05:12] <jsgotangco> oh desktop meeting eh?
[05:13] <seb128> lol
[05:13] <dholbach> so who's here for the desktop team meeting :)
[05:13] <mvo> ahhhh
[05:14] <mvo> welcome dholbach !
[05:14] <dholbach> you were waiting for me?
[05:14] <dholbach> i'm so touched
[05:14] <seb128> yep
[05:14] <mvo> sure
[05:14] <dholbach> ok
[05:15] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas
[05:15] <dholbach> so what do we have achieved since the last time?
[05:15] <seb128> UDN
[05:15] <seb128> thanks vuntz :)
[05:15] <dholbach> yeah, that was a blast
[05:15] <seb128> now we have lot of new people on the list
[05:15] <seb128> time to have rocking ideas on make the list active :)
[05:16] <dholbach> we should really focus on getting our crazy ideas to the list asap
[05:16] <seb128> yep
[05:16] <dholbach> but it seems to hard to convert ourselves from the irc-centric approach we take, no? :)
[05:16] <dholbach> mvo for example could take the discussion about dbus/notify there
[05:17] <dholbach> because that will something that will affect huge parts and if we can discuss it and get people involved
[05:18] <mvo> we will need to recompile a bit for both main and universe, seb128 already prepared a list for main
[05:18] <seb128> 23 packages for main
[05:18] <seb128> let me run it on universe
[05:18] <dholbach> 62+46 all in all (-1-1 and glib-1-1)
[05:19] <seb128> 19 for universe
[05:19] <seb128> 23 for main
[05:19] <mvo> seb128: do you use grep-dctrl? 
[05:19] <seb128> grep-available in fact
[05:19] <seb128> with some | | to get source packages instead of binary
[05:20] <dholbach> mvo: do you think there will be lots to patch?
[05:20] <mvo> so far everything compiled
[05:20] <mvo> but I'm not 100% sure
[05:21] <dholbach> cool
[05:21] <mvo> we may run into some issues
[05:21] <seb128> is there a way to remove '\n' ?
[05:21] <mvo> otoh gnome is going to depend on it for 2.14 anyway, no?
[05:21] <seb128> ie: for a file
[05:21] <seb128> 1
[05:21] <seb128> 2
[05:21] <seb128> to cat it | sed 's#\n##' or something
[05:24] <dholbach> seb128: sorry, dunno
[05:24] <dholbach> mvo: we could write a mail to u-d-a and just go with it in a big upload over a weekend, so there's no (too big) breakage :)
[05:26] <seb128> yeah, tr works for that :p
[05:26] <seb128> "avahi banshee gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-user-share gpe-contacts gpsd libgalago libipoddevice liferea network-manager power-manager thoggen totem vlc xchat-gnome xfce4-terminal xfmedia xterminal"
[05:26] <seb128> for main
[05:26] <seb128> "bluez-pin bluez-utils dbus epiphany-browser evince evolution gnome-applets gnome-utils gnome-vfs2 gnome-volume-manager hal ivman k3b kdebase libgpod libnotify nautilus-cd-burner notification-daemon pmount rhythmbox screem totem update-notifier"
[05:26] <Amaranth> whoa
[05:26] <dholbach> that doesn't look too bad
[05:27] <dholbach> :)
[05:27] <seb128> those are the source rdepends of libdbus-1-1, 1 is universe, second is main
[05:27] <Amaranth> what is changing?
[05:27] <Amaranth> ah
[05:27] <mvo> nice!
[05:29] <dholbach> mvo: ok, so we try the breakage first locally and then shove it to the people?
[05:29] <mvo> good plan I think
[05:29] <dholbach> cool
[05:30] <seb128> mvo: but what happens when new dbus hit the archive?
[05:30] <seb128> apps are broken and need a rebuild NOW?
[05:30] <seb128> binary package name change?
[05:30] <mvo> binary package name changes
[05:30] <mvo> so when dbus hits the archive nothing happens
[05:30] <seb128> oh, nice
[05:30] <seb128> clean transition so
[05:31] <dholbach> seb128: we do it the doko way: do a million uploads at once :)
[05:31] <mvo> but once we start building the first apps we need to be quick :)
[05:31] <mvo> yes
[05:31] <dholbach> we can split up and do it over the weekend or over night :)
[05:31] <seb128> what happens if apps built with 2 different versions try to communicate?
[05:31] <mvo> of course we first need a building dbus *cough*
[05:31] <Nafallo> today!? :-D
[05:31] <raphink> slomo: could you advocate http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1163 again please?
[05:31] <mvo> shock and awe
[05:31] <seb128> we get 2 busses and they don't reach each other
[05:31] <seb128> or BUM?:)
[05:32] <slomo> raphink: wrong channel ;P
[05:32] <mvo> in theory it might work, but in reality -> bum
[05:32] <raphink> oops sorry
[05:32] <raphink> :(
[05:32] <raphink> hehe
[05:32] <seb128> mvo: bum like app crashing?
[05:32] <dholbach> seb128: isnt 'boum' the french way of crashing? ;)
[05:32] <seb128> or just dbus feature not working fine?
[05:32] <seb128> dholbach: yeah, but that's an english meeting :p
[05:32] <seb128> haha :)
[05:32] <dholbach> :)
[05:33] <mvo> I had panel freezes for examples
[05:33] <seb128> panel doesn't use dbus
[05:33] <dholbach> we'll see how it works out... a warning on u-d-a should be appropriate :)
[05:33] <seb128> see my list :p
[05:33] <mvo> but some applets do
[05:33] <seb128> applets should not be able to take the panel down
[05:33] <seb128> I blame vuntz
[05:33] <dholbach> "should" :)
[05:33] <seb128> vuntz|away: HERE, NOW :)
[05:34] <dholbach> haha
[05:34] <seb128> mvo: anyway, 20 package is no big deal, with 2-3 people on it, it's a matter of one hour
[05:34] <dholbach> yeah
[05:34] <sivang> desktop team meeting?
[05:34] <sivang> or doc-team ?
[05:34] <dholbach> desktop, still :)
[05:34] <seb128> guess?
[05:35] <Nafallo> those packages are only main? :-)
[05:35] <dholbach> Nafallo: universe uploads! :)
[05:35] <Nafallo> sivang: no, the docteam has to rebuild 20 packages :-)
[05:35] <seb128> Nafallo: quite the same number for universe
[05:35] <Nafallo> yay! something for me todo :-D
[05:35] <seb128> :)
[05:36] <dholbach> seb128: we'll set up a wiki page, where everybody can take his share of packages and we organize it, before we actually do it, does that sound smart?
[05:36] <Nafallo> dholbach: yes oh humble wikigod :-)
[05:36] <seb128> that sounds not required for me
[05:36] <dholbach> no?
[05:36] <seb128> 20 packages, I can give 7 to you, 7 to mvo and take 6
[05:36] <dholbach> yeah + universe
[05:36] <seb128> and we are done in one hour
[05:37] <seb128> the transition is small enough to be handled on IRC imho
[05:37] <Nafallo> seb128: do you have the list of packages somewhere? :-)
[05:37] <dholbach> *nod*
[05:37] <seb128> but that's because I don't like to wait for hours on wiki every time I do an upload
[05:37] <seb128> if you want to wiki stuff feel free
[05:37] <Nafallo> good point ;-)
[05:37] <seb128> I'll ping you on IRC to update my uploads :p
[05:37] <dholbach> no, but just to share it before we do it :)
[05:37] <dholbach> haha
[05:37] <seb128> Nafallo: I copied it like 20 lines up
[05:37] <dholbach> apart from dbus/notify we need to discuss how to get the pile of bugs managed - the situation is desparate since flight 2
[05:38] <\sh> seb128: send the universe packages to ubuntu-motu ML :)
[05:38] <doko> seb128: do these packages need changes?
[05:38] <seb128> hum, rather like 60 lines now :)
[05:38] <Amaranth> 11 minutes ago
[05:38] <seb128> doko: that's a good point, a few probably
[05:38] <seb128> Debian is like to have the patches ready though, sjoerd was working on that yesterday
[05:38] <Nafallo> oh, I've feed universe + screem to apt-get source now ;-)
[05:39] <seb128> GNOME is current dbus complient
[05:39] <sivang> what packages needs work this time nbesides merger etc?
[05:39] <dholbach> seb128: cool
[05:39] <seb128> mvo: have you tried to rebuild stuff with your new dbus?
[05:40] <mvo> seb128: yes, some stuff, hal, pmount, gnome-media, nautilus-cd-burner, evince
[05:40] <seb128> need patching?
[05:40] <mvo> no, build fine so far
[05:40] <seb128> good
[05:40] <seb128> I was expecting that for GNOME
[05:41] <seb128> brb
[05:41] <dholbach> cool
[05:41] <Nafallo> ehm, I get 404 on the dbus orig.tar.gz
[05:41] <dholbach> where?
[05:41] <Nafallo> (apt-proxy -> archive.u.c)
[05:41] <dholbach> hm, might be temporarily
[05:42] <dholbach> but all in all it seems quite straightforward
[05:43] <dholbach> as i said before, i'd really like to know, what you guys think about the bug matter
[05:44] <dholbach> i think that regular bug days are a good start, but what can we do apart from that?
[05:44] <sivang> dbus rebuild? seems fairly easy to do, where the package list? :)
[05:44] <dholbach> sivang: please read the backlog, seb posted it
[05:44] <seb128> dholbach: bug days like every week or every 2 weeks
[05:45] <seb128> but we need people available/responsive the whole day
[05:45] <seb128> tracking what people do
[05:45] <sivang> dholbach: ok, thanks
[05:45] <mvo> how many people (roughly) attend to bug days?
[05:45] <dholbach> i can't really tell
[05:45] <dholbach> since it's quite "new"
[05:45] <dholbach> last time there were like always 10 doing stuff actively at a time
[05:45] <seb128> mvo: 10-20
[05:46] <sivang> dholbach: what's the approach to not stepping on each ones toes when working on bugs? do you assign them to yourself for that?
[05:46] <seb128> sivang: read the backlog
[05:46] <dholbach> sivang: no, we don't do that
[05:46] <seb128> oh, not speaking about dbus
[05:46] <dholbach> we had categories of bugs mentioned on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
[05:46] <Nafallo> dholbach: I can start dropping build-deps on libxdmcp-dev now?
[05:46] <seb128> there is enough bug to not step on another one when picking one usually
[05:46] <dholbach> Nafallo: if libx11 has built, yes
[05:46] <seb128> Nafallo: yeah, was a bad idea to do that
[05:47] <dholbach> like UNCONFIRMED ones, NEEDINFO ones, ...
[05:47] <dholbach> and people told what they were looking at
[05:47] <seb128> Nafallo: fix the issue instead of workaround wrongly half of the world :)
[05:47] <dholbach> apart from that, there were people working on MOTU bugs (in malone), other on bugzilla, ...
[05:47] <Nafallo> seb128: indeed :-)
[05:47] <dholbach> i hope that our call for kubuntu folks, motu folks, other folks will get different people involved, so we can tackle bugs equally
[05:48] <dholbach> but surely, as a desktop team we'd love to see desktop-bugs@ fixed asap :)
[05:48] <dholbach> fixed/triaged
[05:49] <dholbach> it's a bit hard to get people working on bugs, they don't seem to have a special affiliation to it
[05:49] <seb128> yeah, especially distro bugs
[05:49] <seb128> we should make "specialized lists"
[05:49] <dholbach> seb128: the situation on universe bugs is even worse
[05:49] <dholbach> to be frank
[05:50] <seb128> like "GNOMish bugs", "KDEish bug", "installer bugs"
[05:50] <seb128> dholbach: I'm not quite convinced
[05:50] <dholbach> that might make sense, do you think we should have separate days for those?
[05:50] <seb128> maybe not
[05:50] <seb128> but have clear list during the bug day
[05:50] <dholbach> seb128: if i look at my universe bugs mail box that's the impression i get, they are assigned, but not triaged
[05:50] <seb128> so people can focus on what they are interested it
[05:50] <seb128> s/it/in/
[05:50] <dholbach> yeah
[05:51] <dholbach> that definitely sounds good
[05:51] <seb128> dholbach: malone generates a lot of noise
[05:51] <dholbach> :)
[05:51] <dholbach> yes
[05:51] <seb128> I read new bugs on malone quite often since there is no assignee by default
[05:51] <seb128> to figure where GNOME bugs are
[05:51] <seb128> and most of the flood are your syncs
[05:51] <dholbach> i always look at the unassigned list
[05:52] <dholbach> ... first
[05:52] <dholbach> i feel that we need a separate team, maybe we should get t-shirts out to members of the "Ubuntu Bug Squad" :)
[05:53] <dholbach> people in #ubuntu-bugs surely feel "lost" somehow
[05:53] <dholbach> i saw that in the days after the bug day
[05:53] <mvo> some sort of reward will certainly motivate
[05:53] <dholbach> people were getting in and thought "hello, anybody here?"
[05:53] <seb128> I was wondering if we should split bug days
[05:53] <dholbach> split in what way?
[05:54] <seb128> like have desktopish triagging on #ubuntu-desktop
[05:54] <dholbach> mvo: we should talk to mark about that
[05:54] <seb128> instead of #ubuntu-bugs
[05:54] <sivang> ok, so new dbus version?
[05:54] <sivang> :)
[05:54] <dholbach> but that way we will always have bugs not being touched
[05:54] <dholbach> sivang: do you have a big irc lag?
[05:55] <dholbach> not meant to be rude, but we're talking bugs atm :)
[05:55] <sivang> dholbach: erm , I don't think so - maybe, why?
[05:55] <sivang> eh!
[05:55] <sivang> no , it's ok - my brain is lagging, not irc
[05:55] <seb128> dholbach: right, but we can still have a part of the triage on #ubuntu-bugs
[05:56] <dholbach> it might sound stupid, but maybe we should talk bug discussions over there?
[05:56] <dholbach> mvo: any idea on those rewards?
[05:57] <dholbach> seb128: do you know of other bug teams around the open source world, apart from gnome?
[05:57] <mvo> t-shirts, a special thanks mail from leading comunity people (like dholbach) 
[05:57] <mvo> that sort of thing
[05:57] <dholbach> haha
[05:57] <mvo> menitoning on a webpage 
[05:57] <dholbach> that sounds cool yes
[05:57] <seb128> dholbach: nop
[05:57] <mvo> or a minutes from the bug-day
[05:57] <mvo> with special mentinoing etc
[05:58] <sivang> but people should not do it just for getting some reward or karma, as seb128 once noted. I think he's was right.
[05:58] <dholbach> we should raise more awareness of those people just getting involved
[05:58] <dholbach> like those "everybody look, seb128's first upload to the archive"-mails :)
[05:58] <seb128> I didn't say that
[05:59] <seb128> reward/karma can motivate people for sure
[05:59] <sivang> maybe we need to have a bugs day report, where people working were mentioned (even if they fixed bugs, of if they did not)
[05:59] <seb128> but that's not a reason to make useless stuff only to get karma
[05:59] <dholbach> sivang: sure not, but people willing to contribute usually have contributions of good quality
[05:59] <sivang> dholbach: agreed
[05:59] <sivang> seb128: true
[05:59] <sivang> but t-shirts would be nice :)
[06:00] <sivang> I think that if we care not to make too much distinction between epople the take part in this day, we'll eventually get a nice steady community of bug squad people
[06:00] <dholbach> guys, do bug triage!
[06:00] <dholbach> i will talk to mark for every t-shirt personally
[06:00] <sivang> jsgotangco: WWE?
[06:00] <dholbach> even if i have to buy them, i'll do it
[06:01] <jsgotangco> sivang, world wrestling entertainment heh
[06:01] <sivang> eh, :)
[06:01] <dholbach> seb128: we should do a nice t-shirt design session and i'll sent them out
[06:01] <dholbach> s/sent/send
[06:01] <Nafallo> jsgotangco: did he win against who? :-)
[06:02] <seb128> dholbach: I'm not the guy you want to ping about design stuff :p
[06:02] <dholbach> so who of you will get heavily busy with us next week (21st)? and who of you honestly noticed bug day on 21st?
[06:02] <dholbach> seb128: thanks... we'll do it just fine :)
[06:03] <dholbach> big silence... sure, i understand... "blah... christmas presents... blah...", sure :)
[06:04] <dholbach> if, so if nobody has to say anything, we should move to other topics
[06:04] <seb128> move
[06:05] <dholbach> what do you want to see in the desktop team next? :-)
[06:05] <dholbach> people seem to have high expectations in the team
[06:05] <dholbach> (hence the big amount of subscribers on the list)
[06:05] <dholbach> but it doesnt seem to be clear what people can do
[06:05] <dholbach> is that observation accurate?
[06:06] <jsgotangco> yes
[06:06] <seb128> use the wiki to put task
[06:06] <seb128> don't hesitate to use the list to raise discussion instead of IRC
[06:06] <seb128> to ask for new cool stuff, opinion on it, etc
[06:06] <seb128> maybe some weekly bug triaging stats
[06:06] <seb128> how many bug we got
[06:07] <seb128> how many we closed
[06:07] <dholbach> maybe i should do a day with s/#ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-desktop@
[06:07] <seb128> the top 5 of bug closers
[06:07] <seb128> daily work discussion are not suitable for a list
[06:07] <seb128> I think this page is nice: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html
[06:08] <seb128> we should have a weekly summary for Ubuntu too
[06:08] <dholbach> i just thought about it, but maybe if we could take more of our usual workflow to the mailing list, people would have a "glimpse into what happens everyday"
[06:08] <seb128> people like to see how things are going/moving
[06:08] <sivang> dholbach++
[06:08] <dholbach> who are our bugzilla experts? jdub?
[06:08] <sivang> seb128: but also like to see them logged in a mailing list, when it's easy to go back
[06:08] <seb128> dholbach: we already said that, and I tried to mail the list
[06:08] <sivang> seb128: oh
[06:08] <seb128> I did for the session dialog, gconf changes, asking for the panel launchers and stuff
[06:09] <seb128> dholbach: yeah, jdub I guess
[06:09] <dholbach> yeah, maybe i didn't try hard enough
[06:09] <dholbach> i'll try harder
[06:09] <dholbach> new pages on the wiki, new things we're planning "at some stage", ...
[06:10] <sivang> dholbach: make sure you send it to the list as well, and try to create discussion there
[06:10] <dholbach> sivang: i was talking about the list
[06:10] <sivang> ah ok
[06:10] <dholbach> that sounds sound
[06:10] <dholbach> mvo: you mail to the list first... dbus / notify stuff! YAY :)
[06:10] <sivang> dholbach: you said "wiki pages.." , that's why I Was wondering.
[06:11] <dholbach> it was in context to what seb said before
[06:12] <dholbach> seb128: you think jdub will make such a weekly-bug-summary happen?
[06:12] <seb128> no
[06:12] <dholbach> *nod*
[06:12] <mvo> dholbach: I first need to make it build again
[06:12] <seb128> but it's easy to have some standard queries to get stats and to include that to a weekly mail
[06:12] <seb128> like UDN
[06:12] <dholbach> mvo: ok
[06:12] <dholbach> seb128: i'll look into it
[06:13] <dholbach> and set a big reminder every week :)
[06:13] <seb128> dholbach: ask vuntz about it, he already did some stat on bugzilla.ubuntu like that
[06:13] <dholbach> cool
[06:13] <dholbach> are there some other points somebody would like to raise?
[06:14] <dholbach> ok
[06:14] <dholbach> i think for a rather ad-hoc meeting this went quite well
[06:14] <dholbach> and it makes me happy to see, that there's always enough to discuss in ubuntu-dektop :)
[06:14] <dholbach> if nobody steps up to it, i'll write the minutes
[06:15] <jsgotangco> :D
[06:15] <dholbach> and send them to ubuntu-desktop@ :)
[06:15] <sivang> dholbach: also, make sure you send the stuff about what seb talked in the backlog :)
[06:15] <dholbach> hey vuntz
[06:15] <vuntz> hey
[06:15] <vuntz> :-)
[06:15] <dholbach> vuntz: any points you'd like to raise for the desktop meeting
[06:15] <dholbach> ?
[06:16] <Riddell> I have a brief question
[06:16] <dholbach> Riddell: fire away
[06:16] <Riddell> what's the status of gstreamer 0.10 support in apps?
[06:16] <dholbach> seb128: :-)
[06:17] <vuntz> dholbach: no special points
[06:17] <dholbach> vuntz: unspecial ones?
[06:17] <vuntz> err. don't think so :-)
[06:17] <seb128> Riddell: for GNOME most of them are ported
[06:17] <vuntz> ah
[06:18] <vuntz> don't forget to send new stuff on the list or to me so that it can be in UDN
[06:18] <seb128> Riddell: we will ship dapper with gst010 no gst08, is that an issue for KDE?
[06:18] <vuntz> seb128: we could ship both if necessary
[06:18] <seb128> vuntz: what do you think about doing weekly bug stats (how many new bugs, closed, forwarded, top 5 bug closers, etc) (like http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html)?
[06:18] <vuntz> seb128: good idea
[06:18] <seb128> vuntz: no we can't
[06:19] <vuntz> I wanted to add a section like this in UDN, btw
[06:19] <vuntz> seb128: why can't we?
[06:19] <Riddell> seb128: amarok will probably be ported to gstreamer 0.10 soon, but there's no plans for kaffeine to be currently
[06:19] <seb128> vuntz: pitti will track me down :p
[06:19] <dholbach> vuntz: great!
[06:19] <seb128> vuntz: anti-duplication front :)
[06:19] <vuntz> seb128: if KDE needs it, we can
[06:19] <vuntz> it doesn't mean GNOME will use it :-)
[06:19] <seb128> vuntz: right, but better to not
[06:20] <dholbach> there's a bit of time until release :)
[06:20] <Riddell> yeah, I just need to persuade them that they'll look old-fashioned if they still use gstreamer0.8
[06:20] <seb128> vuntz: depending on what you mean "ship", we will not on the CD for sure
[06:20] <vuntz> seb128: not the Ubuntu CD, but if KDE needs it, it can be on the Kubuntu one. Can't it?
[06:20] <dholbach> Riddell: haha, that's the best point you can make, for sue :)
[06:20] <vuntz> but I agree it's better to have only 0.10
[06:20] <seb128> vuntz: yeah, no issue for that, it just has to be in main
[06:21] <seb128> but pitti would be happy if we can move 0.8 to universe
[06:21] <seb128> because main means we will have to support it for 3 years
[06:21] <vuntz> and everyone would be happy. Not just pitti :-)
[06:21] <seb128> and upstream already stopped supporting it
[06:21] <seb128> so that's like maintaining it for 3.5 years over upstream
[06:22] <dholbach> ouch :)
[06:23] <dholbach> if that gives answers to the question, we close the meeting, no? :)
[06:23] <dholbach> ok, meeting closed
[06:24] <dholbach> have a nice day
[06:24] <mvo> yep
[06:24] <dholbach> lunch, dinner, whatever
[06:25] <seb128> thanks dholbach
[06:25] <dholbach> thank YOU!
[06:25] <seb128> mvo: at 6pm? that's early! enjou :)
[06:26] <mvo> seb128: it only means I can have a late one too :)
[06:26] <vuntz> hungry german people
[06:56] <seb128> lamont: could you give a rebuild to evolution-data-server with the fixed libx11 (2:0.99.4-0ubuntu2)
[06:57] <lamont> seb128: kicked
[06:57] <seb128> thank you