=== mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === guilhermee [n=x@200.217.94.117] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [n=doko@dslb-084-059-072-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Fergus [n=frg@85-18-14-13.fastres.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bmonty [n=bmontgom@wsip-68-15-230-31.om.om.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === AndyFitz [n=andy@220-245-97-227.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === calc [n=ccheney@ip70-185-4-246.ma.dl.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SloMoSnail [n=slomo@p5487F7D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@69.106.49.211] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@69.106.49.211] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont [n=lamont@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@69.106.49.211] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | | 15 Dec 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 15 Dec 19:00 UTC: MOTU Meeting | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 16 Dec 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 20 Dec, time TBD: Community Council | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status === No1Viking [i=micke@h-83-140-104-3.ip.cust.port80.se] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B0A11.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === No1Viking [i=micke@h-83-140-104-3.ip.cust.port80.se] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Simira [n=rpGirl@118.84-48-121.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dsas [n=dean@host86-143-88-239.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === raphink [n=raphink@gra86-1-82-239-88-236.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lbm [n=lbm@x1-6-00-13-10-7a-d1-e4.k233.webspeed.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Madpilot [n=bburger@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:03] hi all [03:03] morning klepas [03:03] morning everyone [03:03] morning [03:04] people not officially involved in the doc team can voice opinions and tag along, right? [03:04] of course [03:04] of course [03:04] ...still dark out here... barely morning at all... :) [03:04] grin 9am here, beautiful snowy december morning [03:04] 4 inches over night === jsgotangco misses snow [03:05] who's here? [03:05] do we have the numbers to actually hold a meeting? [03:06] i'm here [03:06] ok let's wait a big just in case [03:07] doing an OEM install of Dapper flight2 and have had no issues this monring [03:07] of kubuntu [03:07] wow [03:07] mine in ubuntu is just borked [03:07] i have yet to burn the image of kubuntu though [03:07] i love the boot screen [03:08] but i'll be doing a good number of updates on the quickguide [03:08] though how do you do a screen shot of it to include in the doc? [03:08] yeah [03:08] it'll be great [03:08] jjesse: with an actual camera? :) [03:08] 01:08 here [03:08] AM :) [03:08] and 30 degrees [03:09] -1 C at 0609 here, and sunrise isn't until 0759... bleh [03:10] hmm we don't seem to have the numbers [03:10] Madpilot, -1 C isn't that cold [03:10] where is everyone? [03:10] Canberra, Australia [03:10] klepas, we meant the other team contributors :) [03:11] hmm lots posted in the agenda but no one came :) [03:12] jsgotangco: for release notes are we updatign just what has changed since the last release? [03:12] have you seen DapperReleaseNotes? [03:12] yeah [03:12] there isn't that much but yeah i should update that this weekend [03:13] have you seen DapperFlight2 ? [03:13] it should get packaged by Flight 3 [03:13] yeah but thats more of a marketing doc :) [03:13] if somoene lets me know in time i can do a kubuntuflight3 page [03:13] but good nonetheless [03:13] that would liook like that [03:13] its awesome [03:13] matt did good on that one [03:13] actually the flight 2 docs are very VERY good [03:14] yeah but it would have been cool to have a Kubuntu one ready as well :( [03:14] yeah let's fix that [03:14] mdke seems to have convered good on ubuntu [03:14] DRAKE IS A DRAGON AND KUBUNTU HAS A KONQUI [03:14] =) [03:15] cackle [03:15] klepas: did you have something you wanted to share? [03:15] klepas, yeah dude good time to do so [03:15] Madpilot, what happened to Burgy? [03:15] work perhaps [03:15] ? [03:16] jsgotangco: he's a lazy SOB? ;) [03:16] haha [03:16] Madpilot, how's docbook treating you? [03:16] Madpilot: stupid question you are working on??? [03:16] I'm not swearing at it quite as much [03:17] jjesse: I just did the BitTorrent entry for common-tasks.xml - not sure if that patch has been applied yet though [03:17] yeah it can be a bitch sometimes [03:17] I posted it to the list last night [03:17] Madpilot: i just get confused on who is working on what :) [03:17] Madpilot, i'll patch it now [03:17] jsgotangco: sorry [03:17] multitasking === jsgotangco searches for the patch [03:18] jjesse: you still available for Sunday's Desktop Guide meeting? [03:19] we have a desktop meeting? [03:19] WE'RE NOT IDIOTS UNLIKE YOU GUYS [03:19] haha [03:19] joke [03:19] we've been talking about one for Sunday - 1700 UTC I think [03:20] i should be available [03:20] hmm i'm -5 UTC so i should be out of church by then [03:21] Madpilot, slobs didn't apply your patch =) [03:22] I didn't think it had gone in yet [03:22] didn't see it come across [03:22] I sent the email about 8hrs ago now... [03:23] no worries [03:23] Madpilot, next time we'll guarantee your patch gets applied in 2 hours or your money back =) [03:23] :P [03:24] i'll double your money if its not applied [03:24] and will even topup a fresh commit account [03:24] lol [03:25] hmmm... if we're not going to have an actual meeting, maybe we should stop filling the -meeting logs here and head back to -doc? === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:26] speak of the devils [03:26] holy diff errors Madpilot === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:27] jsgotangco: hmm? what's up? === jsgotangco reverts the doc first [03:27] hello all [03:27] its been a while since i patched the docs here better let mdke do it :) === jsgotangco should familiarize himself with the svn again [03:28] lots of xref issues [03:28] jsgotangco, validate the desktopguide.xml [03:28] ohhhh [03:28] Madpilot, see? [03:28] =) [03:29] ahh [03:29] no issue then =) [03:29] any meeting action? [03:29] not so much we were waiting for the o great packager =) [03:29] what meeting? :-) [03:30] Nafallo, topic? [03:30] mdke, we got lots in the agenda but no bhuvan [03:31] hmm [03:31] rob1? [03:31] ah [03:31] dholbach, around? [03:32] Riddell, around? [03:32] always baby [03:32] heh, yeah true [03:32] Madpilot, applied! 10 brownie points added =) [03:32] well how about we deal with a few agenda items? [03:33] the first two have been around way too long [03:33] jsgotangco: thanks [03:33] back sorrry [03:33] dholbach, Riddell, has any progress been made on the "single source for (k)ubuntu-docs" issue? === guilhermee [n=x@200164038026.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:34] mdke: not to my knowledge [03:34] jjesse, whoa that was fast [03:35] Riddell, any strong views either way? [03:35] it would be nice, but I have no feel for the difficulty/triviality of what it would take [03:35] mdke: I think it would still be nice since it would stop us having to do externals to the generic documents in kubuntu, but it's not a major issue [03:35] wouldn't be that difficult, just takes doing [03:35] whaddaya mean single source? [03:35] and I don't have time for it [03:36] jsgotangco, building both packages from the same source package [03:36] right [03:36] Riddell, right, I suggest we remove this from the agenda and I'll take it up with Daniel when I next encounter him. If we can do it, we will. otherwise, in the meantime, shall we put the external back? [03:37] yes, I'll probably do that today [03:37] great [03:37] ok that issue is dealt with [03:38] agenda item 1 is "toolchain for kubuntu docs". this was about using meinproc for building kubuntu docs [03:38] i think we left that as undecided last time we tlaked about it on the mailing list [03:38] yeah [03:39] afaict I was the only one with an objection to this, so I'm happy to stand aside and for us to continue using meinproc, if no one else objects === jsgotangco has no experience with it but heard its pretty good [03:39] jsgotangco: it lacks xincludes is the problm [03:39] problem [03:39] ahhh [03:39] oh yeah crap forgot about that [03:39] so it means that generic docs can't use xincludes [03:39] and the kubuntu docs can't either [03:40] well nobody objects if edit kubuntu docs :) [03:40] if I edit [03:41] no, but if people want to work on both, they'll have to get used to two different procedures, which is a shame [03:41] plus you've got the fact that include/excluding external things from translations is easier with xincludes [03:42] if it is easier for translations will that make kubuntu docs more easily available in rosetta? [03:43] jjesse, we can make them available in rosetta anyway, but it is more difficult to specify what to include and what to exclude when you're dealing with entities rather than xincludes [03:43] now i don't totally understand it, but wouldn't it be easier to just keep it simple? [03:44] well meinproc also has some advantages, as Riddell posted. So it's a question of balancing up. [03:45] like working with KDE :) [03:45] Riddell, well i have few doubts that we can make the html docs built with the other tool work with kde too [03:46] the styling is certainly not a problem. [03:47] the issues were something to do with compression, right? [03:48] compression and splitting up into .html files [03:48] xsltproc splits up into .html files too [03:48] can the compression be done manually, or not at all? [03:52] it can be done manually [03:52] it would just take a lot of hassle with the style sheets and scripting [03:54] Riddell, well I think it should be your call, but I'm really pretty against having to remove xincludes from the generic docs [03:54] is there literally no way meinproc will be happy with xincludes? [03:55] I don't have time to do anything other than meinproc [03:55] no, it doesn't support them [03:55] Riddell or mdke is it somthing that one of you could teach me to do so i could take care of it? [03:56] or is it just faster to do it your self? [03:56] faster not to do it :) [03:56] well given that the breezy package didn't use meinproc, it wouldn't be very difficult to revert to that system [03:57] the question is, how bad are the breezy kubuntu docs? [03:57] bad packaging wise? [03:57] yeah, obviously not content wise [03:57] are the stylesheets ok? [03:57] you'd need to edit the KDE stylesheet to generate separate .html files then glue them all together with then compress them [03:57] they're not valid HTML [03:58] why not? [03:58] how about we use the standard docbook-xsl stylesheets, and apply the kde css, like we do for ubuntu-docs? [03:58] would that help? [03:58] all the stuff is in there [03:59] no, the kde css is designed for the KDE xsl [04:00] Riddell, well it's not like it's complex css. It is basically just a few colours, I'm sure we can make any necessary tweaks [04:00] go ahead, as I say I've no time for it : [04:00] :) [04:00] again, ubuntu-docs looks ok (imo) [04:00] or if it doesn't, it will [04:00] go go go mdke ! [04:01] ? [04:01] tell you what [04:01] i'll try and knock something up, and we can see what it looks like [04:04] Riddell, is meinproc actively developed? can we bitch at someone about supporting xincludes? [04:05] i don't think it's been developed for some time, hopefully it'll go away for kde 4 [04:06] hmm [04:06] well the ubuntu-docs stuff is definitely valid (x)html, so I'll try and knock something up that you're happy with [04:08] groovy [04:09] anyone else still here? [04:09] i am [04:10] any agenda items you'd like to discuss? [04:10] mmm [04:10] not really, i know a group of us are getting together sunday for a desktop guide mtg [04:10] we're going to update kubuntu doc soon [04:10] cool [04:10] jjesse, but we're not part of *that* group =) [04:11] i'd definitely like to discuss the xml/html question. There has been almost no discussion on the list about this :( === jsgotangco trolls [04:11] proposal was http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html [04:11] mdke, i really like the way you did for flight 2 packaging both [04:11] with the exception of a thumbs up from mpt, I've seen no real response [04:11] because of that we can easily compare what is better or not [04:12] cool [04:12] any views? [04:12] I'm 100% in favour of html [04:12] translation issues? [04:12] there are no translation issues [04:12] obviously we'd continue to write in xml [04:12] the translations would be fine [04:13] so we'd continue to write in Docbook XML, but ship the converted HTML? [04:13] that is the proposal yeah === mdke thinks Madpilot would prefer not to write in docbook :) === guilhermee [n=x@200164038026.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [04:13] yes [04:14] I'm getting slightly more used to it :) but HTML is so much easier & less verbose [04:14] jsgotangco: offered to make my ODP into docbook for edubuntu, so I'll start docing finally [04:14] thx jsgotangco [04:14] Madpilot, but more inflexible :( === mhz wrote that regarding translations :) [04:14] so any views on the proposal? [04:14] i would prefer to continue to write in docbook, i've leared enough of it to continue using [04:15] mhz, i dunno about translation the current doc that'll mean rewriting code [04:15] mdke: yeah, I know why Docbook is in use - there are actual good reasons [04:15] mhz, it would be ok if its a new doc though [04:15] yep [04:15] but not an existing one [04:15] jsgotangco: okis, no prob. [04:15] even easier then [04:15] mhz, translating an existing work is much easier (go to rosetta) [04:15] Madpilot, jsgotangco, jjesse, any views on the proposal [04:15] ? [04:15] indeed [04:16] i like the html css at the moment [04:16] me too, and the speed [04:16] its basically moz rendering right? [04:16] yep [04:16] even better [04:16] yelp renders in html anyway [04:16] but if we ship in xml, it has to do the conversion on-the-fly [04:16] whereas if we ship html, we do it at the build [04:17] hence the speed difference [04:17] as i don't understand the packaging/rendering process the greatest yet, need to learn it, as long as i keep editing the docs in docbook format it shouldn't matter to me what we render in [04:17] and i have never looked at the ubuntu-docs in gnome, haven't used ubuntu so i can't comment on how yelp loos [04:17] fair enough [04:17] yeah but you have to admit, yelp has improved on speed, but still not good enough [04:18] yelp is fairly quick at displaying html, just slow with xml, understadably [04:18] any idea when Yelp is going to get search functions? [04:18] Madpilot, no, but it doesn't make a difference to this issue, because yelp will be the help viewer, regardless of what we decide [04:18] i believe upstream already has it [04:19] Madpilot, oh wait sorry, i meant Printing support [04:19] RAD [04:19] o.o [04:20] as jjesse said the other day, printing support is the most basic function ever [04:20] it really should have had that ages ago ;) [04:20] mdke: that's the last major piece of functionality missing from Yelp, so I was just wondering - as for HTML/XML, shipping HTML = faster rendering, which is rarely a bad thing... [04:20] and search [04:20] khelpcenter had that years ago [04:21] Madpilot, yeah, i don't really see any advantage in shipping xml [04:21] its l337! [04:22] also, the serverguide really has to be in html [04:22] because many servers won't have an xml viewer [04:22] or viewable in text? if i don't have a gui installed :) [04:22] bah! we only need vi! [04:22] emacs [04:22] jjesse, yeah that's what I mean, html is viewable easily from the command line, xml isn't [04:23] any more views on this item? [04:23] nope [04:23] bundle qemacs [04:23] lol [04:23] nano [04:24] jjesse, qemacs renders docbook :P [04:24] ah [04:24] some more agenda items? [04:24] Cleaning unnecessary/unmaintained documents from svn repository (Bhuvan) [04:24] ? [04:24] i think i took care of the kubuntu docs [04:24] don't clean up too much yet :) [04:24] i have no objection to removing documents which are unmaintained and are no further use [04:25] jsgotangco, what about edubuntu, what shall we do with that? [04:25] stay it for a while, i'm observing current work in bzr [04:25] as well my upstream gnome doc [04:25] promised mvo will update it next week [04:25] before we move it to his rep [04:25] can't that be hosted in gnome cvs? [04:26] because g-a-i will have a massive change [04:26] sure [04:26] let me piggyback for a week more =) [04:26] ok we'll leave ubuntu/upstream/gai [04:26] what about update-manager? [04:26] not so sure if that is being updated [04:26] presumably this is upstream already? [04:26] it was sean's doc [04:26] can't say [04:26] i could check [04:27] that would be good [04:27] they don't eat that much space anyways [04:27] true [04:27] until i verify i'll take responsibiility for the two [04:27] ok [04:27] i don't think saving space in there is a high priority [04:27] nahh [04:27] daniel recently wrote a script to reduce the size of the source tarball by excluding anything that isn't used [04:28] that has cut it down from 30 to 10MB [04:28] wow [04:28] he can really conjure voodoo huh [04:28] :) [04:28] jsgotangco, what about your accessibility agenda item? [04:32] well i haven't started that much on it yet but we decided to go wiki first [04:32] once we clean it up, the a11y team can decide if its going in [04:32] ok [04:32] that was easy [04:32] so far we're doing good on a11y [04:32] good [04:33] ok as for the 2 remaining items [04:33] the updating the status reports, I think just need to be worked on, we don't need to discuss it, unless anyone wants to [04:33] the sharing of prefaces, we can talk about on sunday IMO [04:34] since it is very much a faqguide issue [04:34] whats on sunday? [04:34] faqguide/desktopguide [04:34] jsgotangco, a meeting about the desktopguide [04:34] oh === jsgotangco havent been attentive to emails lately [04:34] too busy :) [04:34] incredibly === jsgotangco has a contract at the moment with IOSN [04:35] oh [04:35] how about another agenda item [04:35] commit access for Madpilot? [04:35] gets the +1 from me [04:35] me too [04:35] mdke, www.iosn.net [04:35] I'm not a Member yet - planning on that for Jan. [04:36] oh god this bloody member rule [04:36] Madpilot, you're a shoo-in [04:36] mdke, =) [04:36] pah [04:36] i miss ONE meeting, and you guys make this stupid rule ;) [04:36] bah we had good quorum and a majority of devs === mdke shakes head sadly [04:37] the exact time still hasn't been annoucned for the the Dec. 20th CC meeting - if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make that and put my name down beforehand [04:38] gah [04:38] if it's going to be 2200Z, I'll be at work, I'm afraid... [04:38] don't they do them at 2000? [04:38] yikes! [04:39] it is much more difficult for doc team contributors to get membership without having commit access first :( [04:39] Madpilot is going to have to wait until february or so before we can add him... [04:39] jdub's wife is also getting active in iosn [04:40] mdke: I'll just keep spamming the list with patches until then - and complaining about XML :P [04:40] Madpilot, ok, we'll keep applying em [04:40] meeting adjourned? [04:41] sure [04:41] we got good mileage really [04:41] ok [04:41] why was the last meeting cancelled? [04:41] no one turned up [04:41] eh? [04:41] well i was in seoul... === jsgotangco remembered telling people... === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Madpilot [n=bburger@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === mvo whistles === seb128 hugs mvo [05:05] where is herr holbach? [05:08] seb128: I talked to him some minutes ago, he should be here any minute [05:08] k [05:09] seb128: how is your reading going? what book are you? and where :) ? [05:09] I've not read, as usual when starting IRC, got stuff to do :p [05:09] dholbach says that he can't connect to freenode. [05:09] I was going to when I remembered the meeting was 20 min later [05:10] what is the nice of j5 on irc? is it j5 :) ? [05:10] yep === dholbach [n=daniel@u5-32.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:11] hi [05:11] sorry, i'm late [05:11] just couldn't connect to freenode [05:11] welcome back dholbach :-) === dholbach looks around him, says "home" :) [05:12] oh desktop meeting eh? [05:13] lol [05:13] so who's here for the desktop team meeting :) [05:13] ahhhh [05:14] welcome dholbach ! [05:14] you were waiting for me? [05:14] i'm so touched [05:14] yep [05:14] sure === dholbach sniffs === dholbach is Daniel Holbach === jsgotangco would love to be part of the gnome love [05:14] ok === dholbach looks at the Meeting Agenda [05:15] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas [05:15] so what do we have achieved since the last time? [05:15] UDN [05:15] thanks vuntz :) [05:15] yeah, that was a blast [05:15] now we have lot of new people on the list [05:15] time to have rocking ideas on make the list active :) [05:16] we should really focus on getting our crazy ideas to the list asap [05:16] yep [05:16] but it seems to hard to convert ourselves from the irc-centric approach we take, no? :) [05:16] mvo for example could take the discussion about dbus/notify there === Nafallo will have to read the minutes. girlfriend is demanding today... === mvo is michael vogt === seb128 is seb128 [05:17] because that will something that will affect huge parts and if we can discuss it and get people involved [05:18] we will need to recompile a bit for both main and universe, seb128 already prepared a list for main [05:18] 23 packages for main [05:18] let me run it on universe [05:18] 62+46 all in all (-1-1 and glib-1-1) === seb128 kicks dholbach for saying crap :p [05:19] 19 for universe [05:19] 23 for main [05:19] seb128: do you use grep-dctrl? [05:19]