[12:04] <mdke> ok sure
[12:04] <mdke> i'll do it now, thanks littlepaul 
[12:04] <mdke> you subscribed to -doc?
[12:05] <littlepaul> great
[12:05] <littlepaul> not yet :)
[12:06] <littlepaul> mdke, but http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc.mbox/ubuntu-doc.mbox is in my evolution
[12:06] <mdke> ah great
[12:07] <mhz> re
[12:07] <littlepaul> wb mhz
[12:08] <mhz> LaserJock: good idea. Actually I had some doubts if people would like the idea so asking in the ML's is nice.
[12:08] <mhz> littlepaul: thx :)
[12:08] <mdke> i'll write something up
[12:09] <littlepaul> mdke, thx
[12:11] <littlepaul> mdke, is it possible to organize such a "brainstorming" session on the ml; the involved people could give useful hints about the school idea
[12:11] <mdke> yes
[12:12] <mdke> littlepaul, what is your real name?
[12:12] <littlepaul> Andreas Brunner
[12:13] <mdke> thanks
[12:13] <mdke> are you the same as ompaul?
[12:13] <littlepaul> no
[12:14] <mdke> :)
[12:14] <littlepaul> just littlepaul, a potential ubuntu-doc-school pupil
[12:15] <mdke> :D
[12:16] <mdke> would you envisage the school idea to be (a) a general talk about how the docteam is organised and how to get involved, or (b) a specific talk about the tools, or (c) both
[12:17] <littlepaul> both; but for the first session the answer fits to a :)
[12:18] <littlepaul> you could naturally make report regarding a and start with directly with b
[12:19] <mdke> heh
[12:19] <mdke> i'm not convinced we'd be very good at (b)
[12:19] <mdke> it's kinda learn-as-you-go
[12:20] <littlepaul> sure...
[12:23] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm starting to wonder if it would be possible to set up some kind of common framework for these -school type ideas
[12:23] <mdke> hehe
[12:23] <LaserJock> I think they are nice for people wanting to contribute
[12:24] <littlepaul> LaserJock, could you specifiy your thought?
[12:29] <mdke> ok posted
[12:29] <LaserJock> well, if there is going to be stuff like doc-school and motu-school maybe there is enough commonality that they could share some stuff. For instance, maybe make a wiki page that has places for people to sign up to "teach" classes or maybe what people want to see. Maybe a common calendar and it would be good to try to maybe work on some of the communication tools, etc. Then people interested in contributing to Ubuntu can g
[12:30] <mdke> LaserJock, we saw up to "contributing to Ubuntu can g"
[12:31] <LaserJock> ...go to a central place and then see what's going on.
[12:31] <LaserJock> sorry
[12:31] <mdke> np
[12:31] <mdke> you have to take a breath :)
[12:31] <littlepaul> LaserJock, mdke thx for your interest :)
[12:31] <LaserJock> I mean, what is hard for many people wanting to contribute is to really see at a glance what is going on and where things are taking place
[12:32] <littlepaul> the common framework could be moodle :)
[12:32] <LaserJock> littlepaul: well, I helped with motu-school so I think the idea is good. The only thing I see is that MOTU is much bigger 
[12:34] <LaserJock> littlepaul: I've never heard of moodle, it looks really cool. That is kinda what I was thinking about
[12:34] <littlepaul> LaserJock, moodle is maby someday in edubuntu
[12:35] <mdke> LaserJock, ubuntu.com/community/participate?
[12:36] <littlepaul> LaserJock, I think that ubuntu has some important columns; some of this columns: motu and doc; because motu is big there is a need to enhance also doc :)
[12:37] <LaserJock> mdke: right, I think that we need to launch from ubuntu.com/community/participate to how to get involved in those areas, what is currently going on, how to get trained, etc.
[12:38] <mdke> sure
[12:38] <mdke> the wiki is an obvious place
[12:38] <littlepaul> all this steps conduct someday to the ubuntu certification (lpi++) program
[12:39] <LaserJock> something like moodle would be really nice, but I think it would be quite some work.
[12:41] <littlepaul> LaserJock, "moodle" could evolve to something important like "launchpad/melone" for the community - in one year or so :)
[12:42] <LaserJock> littlepaul: sure, just need to get sabdfl to crack the whip ;-)
[12:43] <littlepaul> hehe
[12:45] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: the advantage to putting all in moodle is that the work would really only need to be done oncwe
[12:46] <littlepaul> Burglaptop, good point
[12:46] <LaserJock> right, that is very very important
[12:47] <LaserJock> I have been helping people learn to package and I have to go over the same stuff over and over
[12:49] <mdke> what is moodle?
[12:49] <LaserJock> mdke: www.moodle.org
[12:49] <mdke> nm, checking website
[12:50] <Burglaptop> mdke: it is education and python
[12:50] <LaserJock> it's in Ubuntu
[12:50] <Burglaptop> mdke: sabfdl drools over it
[12:50] <mdke> i can immagine
[12:50] <littlepaul> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportMoodle
[12:52] <Burglaptop> sorry, moodle is php but early versions were python
[12:52] <Madpilot> whois Madpilot
[12:53] <Madpilot> bleh... /me is not paying attention, and can't type...
[12:53] <Burglaptop> Madpilot: a bloody hell, my nick is unregged, just a sec
[12:53] <LaserJock> I would think you would know ;-)
[12:53] <Madpilot> LaserJock: was trying to remember what a regged nick looked like vs an unregged one :)
[12:53] <LaserJock> lol
[12:57] <LaserJock> I wonder how hard it would be to get moodle going for these -schools
[12:57] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: you need to get php past elmo
[12:59] <Burglaptop> bloody xchat-gnome
[12:59] <LaserJock> hmm, seems like it's hard to get anything past elmo ;-)
[12:59] <Madpilot> elmo is PHP-phobic? 
[12:59] <Burglaptop> any sane sys admin is php phobic
[01:03] <LaserJock> hmm, well are there any moodle alternatives?
[01:04] <mdke> the wiki?
[01:04] <LaserJock> probably, at least to begin with
[01:07] <littlepaul> LaserJock, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managed_learning_environment
[01:09] <LaserJock> littlepaul: cool, thanks. lots there
[01:10] <littlepaul> http://www.edutools.info/course/compare/byproduct/index.jsp nice comparison site :)
[01:13] <littlepaul> gtgn, thx for talking :)
[01:19] <LaserJock> hmm, there are some none PHP moodle-like apps
[01:20] <Burglaptop> none with the market share and developers than moodle has behind it
[01:21] <jsgotangco> hey ho
[01:22] <Burglaptop> salut jsgotangco
[01:25] <LaserJock> ok, well I gotta go but I might have to think about this moodle idea
[01:26] <jsgotangco> hey Burglaptop how's work and life?
[01:27] <Burglaptop> jsgotangco: not bad
[01:30] <mhz> LaserJock: I got back from tea time and read your posts on schools.. I agree with you
[01:30] <mhz> Burglaptop: Moodle is very good
[01:31] <mhz> Burglaptop: but you can also make Moin very good for learning instances
[01:31] <jsgotangco> mhz, blah :)
[01:31] <mhz> after all, the importance is focused on Content rather than a tool
[01:32] <mhz> jsgotangco: hehehe, it's true. moin is already there and we use maybe 60% of its potential only
[01:32] <mhz> and we don't have to worry about php sec. issues
[01:33] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:33] <LaserJock> hmm, well maybe I should give some thought to what the best way to help potential Ubuntu contributors learn what they need to get plugged into various teams
[01:33] <jsgotangco> i'd still go the moodle route though, its well established already on this regard
[01:34] <jsgotangco> It *Just Works* (TM)
[01:34] <mhz> yup, Moodle is very good. Also, we could use eXeLearning
[01:34] <mhz> integration
[01:34] <mhz> OR, we could use InterWiki feature to 'sync' content on diff Wiki servers
[01:35] <mhz> and maybe even include the WikiLearn concept
[06:06] <theCore> LaserJock, hi
[06:07] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[06:08] <theCore> the yelp fix is awsome :-)
[06:08] <theCore> do you know about it ?
[06:09] <LaserJock> wich one?
[06:09] <theCore> the <xsl:import href="../../gettext/gettext.xsl"> one
[06:10] <LaserJock> theCore: I saw it, I haven't tried it out yet
[06:10] <LaserJock> I just got yelp to not segfault on me
[06:10] <theCore> lol
[06:11] <theCore> sudo gedit /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/common/db-{title,xref,label}.xsl
[06:11] <theCore> then remove the <xsl:import href="../../gettext/gettext.xsl"> line
[06:11] <theCore> and yelp will be speed up by 200%
[06:12] <LaserJock> ok, just a sec. I gotta load up my vnc connection
[06:16] <LaserJock> hmm, that is nice
[06:17] <theCore> there's no need for shipping html, with that fix
[06:17] <jsgotangco> yes
[06:19] <theCore> except maybe for having a search tool
[06:19] <jsgotangco> we get printing though
[06:19] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:19] <LaserJock> well, search is coming for yelp isn't it?
[06:19] <theCore> jsgotangco, that true
[06:19] <theCore> :)
[06:20] <jsgotangco> LaserJock, there is no upstream patch for such at the moment, just printing and yelp speedups
[06:20] <jsgotangco> speeding up yelp alone is a major breakthrough
[06:21] <LaserJock> http://blogs.gnome.org/view/shaunm/2005/12/16/0 says that 2.14 will do search
[06:22] <jsgotangco> previous versions had some simple search
[06:23] <jsgotangco> at least we can say the itch was addressed due to something that doesn't work in ubuntu
[06:24] <LaserJock> lol
[06:34] <LaserJock> mhz: got done with the dishes?
[06:34] <mhz> yup
[06:34] <mhz> everything here is manual
[06:34] <mhz> :)
[06:35] <LaserJock> yeah, I am lucky to have a dish washer
[06:35] <LaserJock> although it is so crappy I sometimes wonder if I should do it by hand
[06:36] <mhz> we couldnt use dish wahser in my family. AFAIK, they consume too much energy and we -humans- need to save energy :)
[06:36] <jsgotangco> it doesn't clean as well compared to doing it by yourself unless you are a very crappy washer from the start :)
[06:36] <mhz> lol!
[06:36] <Madpilot> I wait until the counter vanishes, then do dishes... :P
[06:36] <jsgotangco> Palmolive and a sponge is all you need heh
[06:36] <mhz> indeed
[06:37] <LaserJock> Madpilot: I would do that but my wife doesn't agree ;-)
[06:37] <mhz> we should have ubuntu-housekeepers
[06:37] <LaserJock> lol
[06:37] <Madpilot> I'm actually trying to breed self-washing dishes, so all that stuff on the counter is actually experiments, not a mess! :P
[06:37] <LaserJock> I'm sure we could arrange a mailing list ;-)
[06:37] <mhz> LaserJock: we can cry there
[06:38] <mhz> happily
[06:38] <mhz> and jsgotangco could recommend some creams and stuff
[06:38] <jsgotangco> hah
[06:38] <mhz> for hands
[06:38] <jsgotangco> its not like i do it everyday :P
[06:38] <LaserJock> I just wish housekeeping could be a cron job
[06:38] <mhz> oh
[06:38] <mhz> lol
[06:38] <mhz> LaserJock: if it were a cron job we'd be scrwed
[06:39] <jsgotangco> oh well we're bordering already to offtopic anyways
[06:39] <mhz> on a second thought... I think i dont have a cron for housekeeping but i do have a daemon running after me, chasing me... my-wife
[06:39] <LaserJock> have any of you seen Mark's talk at debconf 5?
[06:40] <LaserJock> mhz: I agree
[06:40] <mhz> LaserJock: i bet
[06:41] <LaserJock> I just watched the .mpeg of his talk and I think it should be required or something for ubuntu-user subscribers
[06:42] <Madpilot> LaserJock: link for that?
[06:42] <mhz> please
[06:43] <Madpilot> meh... two days until the next CC meeting, and they **still** haven't fixed a time for it...
[06:44] <LaserJock> a direct link is http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/mpeg/2005-07-14/02-Ubuntu_Talk-Mark_Shuttleworth.mpeg but it is over 100 MB
[06:44] <LaserJock> or 200MB I mean
[06:44] <Madpilot> broadband is wonderful :)
[06:44] <LaserJock> oh, yeah. I download 4 talks
[06:44] <LaserJock> Mark's was the longest though
[06:44] <LaserJock> 1hr11min I think
[06:45] <mhz> Madpilot: what if time were rotating 3 hours every meeting?
[06:45] <LaserJock> but it seems to me that a lot of the arguments on ubuntu-users and elsewhere would be greatly reduced if people just watched his presentation
[06:46] <Madpilot> mhz: not sure what you mean?
[06:46] <mhz> let's say last meeting was 12 UTC, then next meeting should be 15 UTC
[06:46] <mhz> and so on
[06:46] <Madpilot> ah, OK
[06:47] <Madpilot> I think it would just confuse people, to be honest :)
[06:47] <mhz> so, we'd know already
[06:47] <LaserJock> mhz: I don't think that would happen because the CC wouldn't care to get up that early
[06:47] <mhz> hehehehe
[06:47] <Madpilot> or stay up that late...
[06:47] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: what time (local) is 1700Z, btw?
[06:49] <theCore> LaserJock , lol it's a mepg video, isn't ubuntu should use free formats?
[06:49] <LaserJock> oh, there is oggtheora too
[06:49] <LaserJock> but I'm on Windows right now so I got the .mpeg
[06:49] <theCore> LaserJock, feeew
[06:49] <LaserJock> http://wiki.debian.org/?DebConf5Talks is the page that has all the links though
[06:50] <mhz> indeed
[06:50] <mhz> I loved the logo!
[06:51] <Madpilot> http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/ogg_theora/368x288/2005-07-14/
[06:51] <Madpilot> ogg videos there ^^^
[06:51] <theCore> i had already found it, but thanks
[06:58] <theCore> LaserJock, Package Management ? hmm, i must get that video too
[07:00] <LaserJock> Mark talks about how packaging over time really is like branches in a revision control system. He was talking about the possibility of running the packaging using baz or something to that effect
[07:00] <LaserJock> I suspect that might be what this talk is about but I don't know
[07:01] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, that's 3am on my side and probably around 5am on rob's
[07:02] <jsgotangco> oh wait that's only 2am
[07:03] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: yeah, I just figured that out - sorry, for some reason I was thinking 1700Z was only about midnight in your part of the globe!
[07:03] <jsgotangco> Madpilot, you can always refer to timeanddate anyways =)
[07:04] <jsgotangco> i could tolerate such meetings till 2am i guess but it'll be much harder for those in au
[07:06] <Madpilot> so even the 1400Z meetings start at 2300 local for you, right?
[07:06] <jsgotangco> right
[07:06] <jsgotangco> thats still early for me
[07:10] <theCore> Mark seem nervous on that video ...
[07:11] <LaserJock> well, it is a Debian conference. There are still quite a few people that don't really appreciate Ubuntu.
[07:12] <theCore> lol, that's true
[07:12] <mhz> 'just quite a few' :D
[07:39] <theCore> good night, all! 
[07:39] <jsgotangco> night
[08:30] <Madpilot> interesting - Mark did seem a bit jumpy all thru that talk at debconf... 
[08:39] <LaserJock> Madpilot: have you seen other talks by him?
[08:40] <Madpilot> some short videos from UBZ
[08:41] <Madpilot> not sure if they're still available somewhere, but he's noticably more relaxed in the UBZ stuff
[08:41] <LaserJock> oh, I have never seen any other talk by him so I didn't notice it much
[01:47] <littlepaul> a thought about all the logfiles (people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ and http://netz.smurf.noris.de/logs/freenode/2005/) arround. I think there is much unused potential. A webfrontend that searches through this logfiles would help to  raise the relevance of the included content
[08:10] <mdke> blimey it is heavy stuff
[08:11] <LaserJock> what is heavy?
[08:12] <mdke> the incessant long posts about anally retentive subjects
[08:12] <Burglaptop> welcome to a sign of a maturing community
[08:13] <mdke> _maturing_?
[08:13] <Burglaptop> we have lots of people and some of them like to listen to themselves post
[08:14] <mdke> some of the posts are pretty interesting, others are just a pita
[08:16] <Burglaptop> sweet, daf is back
[08:37] <LaserJock> man, I just don't understand what they are even arguing about, if they are
[08:41] <mdke> no, as burg says, just loving the sound of their own voice
[08:45] <Burglaptop> I used to be really bad for that fault, so I have a good idea how to spot it
[08:45] <mdke> lol
[08:48] <Burglaptop> if you listen to Madpilot, I still am
[08:50] <mdke> where is Rob these days?
[08:50] <mdke> >_<
[08:59] <jjesse> afternoon :)
[09:00] <LaserJock> hello
[09:00] <LaserJock> jjesse: you run KDE, right?
[09:00] <jjesse> yup
[09:00] <LaserJock> cool, I'm doing irc from Konversation right now
[09:00] <jjesse> both breezy and dapper
[09:00] <jjesse> version of kubuntu
[09:01] <LaserJock> I thought I would take the plunge and try KDE out
[09:01] <LaserJock> on Ubuntu at least
[09:01] <jjesse> its a lot better then gnome :P
[09:01] <LaserJock> I used to use it on SuSE and Gentoo
[09:01] <Burglaptop> jjesse: arguable
[09:01] <Burglaptop> I am going stircrazy stuck in this house
[09:01] <jjesse> Burglaptop: i know i was being sarcastic 
[09:01] <jjesse> Burglaptop: to each thier own
[09:02] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: how long do you have to be there?
[09:02] <LaserJock> I tried Kubuntu once in Hoary and it didn't seem that great
[09:02] <jjesse> alot of chnages have taken place
[09:02] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: until I recover, several days at least
[09:03] <Burglaptop> jjesse: NO, everybody much use the one true desktop! ICEWM!!!
[09:03] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: well, I hope you recover quickly
[09:03] <jjesse> one desktop to rule them all...
[09:03] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: arrgghhh, I hate ICEWM
[09:03] <LaserJock> only FVWM
[09:03] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: it is going well, but the operation took 45 minutes in what should have been 10
[09:03] <LaserJock> or maybe Openbox for the light hearted
[09:04] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: that's no good. My mom had surgery on Friday. She will be recovering over our Christmas vacation
[09:05] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: ouch. Thanks to the powers of the neighbours internet and Canonical's laptop, I can continue to do work while stuck here
[09:06] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: are the Canonical laptops good? I have heard about them but I don't know the specs.
[09:06] <mdke> every on is different
[09:07] <mdke> on/one*
[09:07] <mdke> otherwise there would be no point testing em ;)
[09:07] <LaserJock> yeah, but do the spend lots of money on them or are they cheapos
[09:07] <LaserJock> I just wondered. It is a cool idea
[09:08] <mdke> varies i guess
[09:08] <mdke> see LaptopTestingTeam on the wiki
[09:08] <LaserJock> My wife has a laptop but I don't think she would like me putting Ubuntu on it.
[09:09] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: mine is a low-end business model
[09:09] <mdke> sure she would :)
[09:10] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: it is not that hard. Simply find out what annoys her about using the computer and then match the features of Ubuntu to that "pain". That is the value you can sell
[09:11] <Burglaptop> either that or break her XP install
[09:11] <Burglaptop> that worked for Madpilot
[09:11] <mdke> mine lappy is nice /me hugs laptop
[09:12] <Burglaptop> other than the battery life (1.5 hours), mine is great too
[09:13] <LaserJock> I think the problem is that I would be taking over her laptop too much. ;-)
[09:13] <LaserJock> "Honey, I just need to test one more thing and then you can surf Ebay."
[09:14] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: I would handle that objection by saying you will need to do less work on the laptop overall
[09:14] <Burglaptop> less to make it Just Work, that is
[09:15] <LaserJock> I think it would be better for me to go with, " I need to buy a new laptop so that I don't take over yours all the time"
[09:15] <mdke> i find Ubuntu a lot more productive than windows
[09:15] <LaserJock> mdke: I certainly don't, I just spend all my time doing Ubuntu work and not real work ;-)
[09:15] <LaserJock> but that's my problem
[09:17] <LaserJock> and now my one Ubuntu box at work is going to be replaced with an iMac so it will be interesting to see how much I will be able to test stuff.
[09:17] <jjesse> LaserJock: dual booting is easy to setup, then one day jsut forget to boot back to windows and see if she complains :)
[09:17] <mdke> stick Ubuntu on that too
[09:18] <LaserJock> mdke: not that easy. I need quite a bit of software for my reasearch that is only on Mac or Windows :(
[09:18] <mdke> change research
[09:18] <LaserJock> lol
[09:18] <jjesse> LaserJock: i'm in the same position as you
[09:18] <jjesse> need a lot of windows only software at work
[09:19] <LaserJock> I'm 4 years into my PhD. I don't think I'm going to abandon it for Ubuntu. I will definately still be working, I just need to move some stuff around
[09:19] <LaserJock> I think I will set up my Ubuntu box at home and then ssh and vnc to it from the iMac
[09:21] <LaserJock> We just need Ubuntu to take over the science field and then it will be better.
[09:22] <mdke> what software is it that is the blocker?
[09:22] <LaserJock> Right now a lot of people are moving from Windows to OSX. I  hope they will then move from OSX to Ubuntu ;-)
[09:22] <LaserJock> mdke: usually data collection and analysis. For me at least
[09:23] <mdke> why haven't the geeks written linux versions?
[09:23] <LaserJock> mdke: because we are doing research not programming 
[09:23] <mdke> brb
[09:24] <LaserJock> I think that is the essential problem. Scientist might be willing to write a program for there specific need but it is usually not very good for general use
[09:25] <LaserJock> as Helen Faulkner said at Debconf5 many linux developers think that scientist should be allowed to write programs :-)
[09:25] <LaserJock> s/should/shouldn't/
[09:27] <LaserJock> part of the problem I suppose is also that science is generally well funded
[09:28] <LaserJock> my boss has no problem dropping $300/person on data analysis software
[09:29] <LaserJock> even though he his a dedicated linux user (couldn't use Windows to save his life) he find OSX to be easier and more productive for him.
[09:30] <LaserJock> of course the most recent linux experience he had was with Fedora Core 1 running FVWM so ...
[09:35] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: I feel sorry for him
[09:36] <LaserJock> I do too, but now he thinks OSX is wonderful because he can do the linux things that he was used to but also run MS Office, etc.
[09:39] <Burglaptop> OS X is both our greatest blessing and our greatest curse
[09:39] <LaserJock> I agree
[09:41] <Burglaptop> hmm, the beeb article is wrong about the IE stuff
[09:41] <Burglaptop> they state that 1 in 10 websites don't work with FF, but forget to mention that some of those websites only work on IE on windows, not on Mac
[09:48] <mgalvin> dang, ok enough, ubuntu under attack -> trash
[09:48] <Burglaptop> ugh, lack of namespaces in our wiki pisses me off, again
[09:48] <mgalvin> gesh
[09:50] <LaserJock> Burglaptop: how so?
[09:52] <Burglaptop> LaserJock: very hard to see what is a doc, what is person, etc.
[09:52] <LaserJock> ahh, I see.
[09:52] <Burglaptop> makes sorting RecentChanges a painful exercise
[09:53] <LaserJock> yes I suppose
[10:09] <bshumate> Burglaptop: did I read you right yesterday, in that you're borrowing your neighbor's WiFi access?  if so, how do you give it back when you're done? ;-)
[10:10] <bshumate> Burglaptop: did you just jump on their open access point then?  i mean do your neighbors know you're using it?
[10:17] <Burglaptop> bshumate: I just jump on their open access point
[10:17] <Burglaptop> and no, they don't know i am using it
[10:19] <jjesse> i can get my neighbors upstairs in the bedroom
[10:20] <Burglaptop> jjesse: I didn't know you had it in you!
[10:22] <jjesse> grin i only do it once in awhile
[10:22] <mdke> all the neighbours here have closed APs
[10:22] <jjesse> have to be in a specfic location
[10:22] <mdke> grrrr
[10:23] <bshumate> isn't that essentially stealing though?  i mean aren't there laws against this kind of thing?
[10:23] <mdke> _sharing_
[10:24] <mdke> it's the open source way
[10:24] <Burglaptop> bshumate: likely but it is pretty harmless theft
[10:26] <mdke> blimey mako needs a search engine on his blog
[10:26] <mdke> http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/reflections/20050730-00.html
[10:26] <theCore> Burglaptop, if the guy, that you suck the internet, has bandwidth limit, it can be harmful to him
[10:26] <bshumate> "harmless theft"?  i tend to think theft is theft. sounds unethical to me.  sharing is more apt to involve both parties knowledge.  i know if you were "sharing" my electricity from my house without my knowledge, I'd sure not be happy about it!
[10:27] <Burglaptop> but in Canada you don't pay by the bit
[10:27] <Burglaptop> you pay a flat cost, ergo I don't cost them anything
[10:28] <theCore> Burglaptop, it debend of your ISP
[10:29] <mdke> bshumate, i'd argue that them leaving the AP open is consent to you using it
[10:29] <bshumate> hmmm... the article doen't seem to make any good points.
[10:29] <mdke> for the pure reason that people need to get smarter
[10:29] <mdke> sure the article makes good points
[10:29] <bshumate> in the case of the access points specifically, both parties should be held accountable....the owner for leaving it open, and the person who uses it without permission.
[10:29] <Burglaptop> theCore: yes, but both Shaw and Telus charge a flat rate up to an extremely high cap
[10:29] <mdke> Every time my Internet connection at home goes down, I take advantage of one my neighbors APs. To balance things out, I make sure I always run an open AP for others out my home.
[10:30] <mdke> doing so is about being a good neighbor
[10:30] <Burglaptop> kamion runs a dual network, an open AP for the world and a closed AP for him
[10:30] <bshumate> mdke: so long as everyone understands that to be the arrangement, then i am fine with that...that *is* sharing
[10:30] <bshumate> but to just take, without the other party's knowledge, is theft really.
[10:31] <mdke> i really don't think it's a big deal
[10:31] <bshumate> interesting nonetheless.
[10:32] <Burglaptop> bshumate: as mdke can tell you, part of the test for theft is how much damage you have cost the person you stole from
[10:32] <mdke> heh
[10:32] <mdke> not in our law :)
[10:32] <mdke> you guys obviously changed it :p
[10:32] <Burglaptop> Canuck law is an odd hybrid of US, UK and French law
[10:33] <bshumate> Burglaptop: so you are stating that morally, it is ok to steal a penny, but not a hundred bucks?
[10:33] <Burglaptop> bshumate: nope
[10:33] <mdke> depends on who you steal if from
[10:33] <bshumate> Burglaptop: but the "damage" is different, is it not?
[10:33] <Burglaptop> bshumate: I am saying that my use doesn't cost them anything and thus does not damage them
[10:33] <mdke> Gates isn't gonna miss it
[10:33] <bshumate> mdke: ohhhhh...
[10:34] <bshumate> mdke: interesting angle / philosophy there. ;-)
[10:34] <Burglaptop> nor do I engage in illegal activities with their connection
[10:34] <mdke> not really
[10:34] <mdke> its a fairly uncontroversial aspect of morally to focus on the damage done to others
[10:34] <bshumate> mdke: it is the classic "Robin Hood" mentality towards theft, actually...
[10:35] <mdke> yes
[10:35] <mdke> as i said, uncontroversial
[10:36] <mdke> everyone agrees that Robin Hood was not an immoral man, except for the leotards
[10:36] <Burglaptop> mdke: the leotards are arguable as well
[10:36] <mdke> LOL
[10:36] <bshumate> mdke: heh heh
[10:36] <mdke> Burglaptop, did you say you had a _girl_friend?
[10:38] <mdke> omg they are still at it on sounder
[10:38] <bshumate> interesting, and enlightening chat, fellows.
[10:38] <Burglaptop> mdke: I do indeed have a girl friend. Madpilot can even verify that
[10:38] <bshumate> what is this sounder business?
[10:38] <mdke> bshumate, a mailing list @lists.ubuntu.com
[10:38] <bshumate> ahhh,
[10:41] <mdke> so Burglaptop 
[10:41] <mdke> i started writing a slimmed down about-ubuntu.xml
[10:41] <jjesse> i take it sounder is a high traffic mailing list?
[10:41] <mdke> really short, it looks pretty boring but i might commit it and you can have a go at it
[10:42] <mdke> jjesse, not that high... but it can get painful to read
[10:42] <jjesse> ah i don't need another list like that
[10:42] <Burglaptop> mdke: I can take a look at it, but I have very little concentration right now, due to pain
[10:43] <theCore> sometime there are good tips that show up 
[10:43] <mdke> Burglaptop, :( you don't have to look now
[10:43] <theCore> like the one about yelp that mdke sended
[10:43] <mdke> on sounder???
[10:44] <theCore> mdke, the tip about how to speed up yelp
[10:45] <mdke> maybe on -doc?
[10:45] <theCore> yes
[10:47] <Burglaptop> the yelp speedy up stuff is being discussed upstream
[10:49] <mdke> and one of the devs posted it on our list
[10:49] <theCore> Burglaptop, i made the fix on my yelp, it's wonderful how yelp is fast :)
[10:49] <mdke> theCore, really, it works well?
[10:49] <mdke> that is awesome news
[10:49] <theCore> mdke, it's like magic
[10:49] <mdke> Burglaptop, committed
[10:50] <mdke> ok, we may have to abandon the "shipping in html" then
[10:50] <mdke> if we haven't already :)
[10:50] <theCore> but yelp still support for searching and printing
[10:51] <theCore> still need*
[10:51] <mdke> it has printing
[10:51] <mdke> in dapper
[10:51] <theCore> good
[10:51] <mdke> and search, if you use beagle
[10:54] <theCore> mdke, did you fix it on your system?
[10:54] <mdke> not yet
[10:55] <theCore> get it a try
[10:55] <theCore> s/get/give/
[10:55] <theCore> sudo gedit /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/common/db-{title,xref,label}.xsl
[10:55] <theCore> then remove <xsl:import href="../../gettext/gettext.xsl"/>
[10:55] <theCore> it's around the 24 line
[10:56] <theCore> it's located*
[10:56] <mdke> ahhhh that is awesome stuff
[10:57] <mdke> but presumably, they'll need to figure out another way to replace whatever it is that gettext.xsl was doing
[11:00] <LaserJock> mdke: I seemed to me that what they said was that the gettext.xsl calls were redundent because is was called elsewhere
[11:01] <bshumate> should call it the "cacophony" list ;-)
[11:01] <mdke> bshumate, you are obviously a masochist :)
[11:01] <mdke> LaserJock, i didn't follow the discussion closely, you might be right
[11:02] <theCore> mdke, gettext.xsl wasn't doing anything in those files ...
[11:03] <bshumate> mdke: naw naw...just fascinated with the sociology of it all really.
[11:03] <mdke> ;)
[11:04] <mdke> it's not always that bad
[11:04] <theCore> macgyver2, the problem was that yelp imported it 4 times 
[11:04] <mdke> obviously dapper is gonna be rocket fast in every respect :)
[11:09] <LaserJock> yeah, good response, fast boot, quick help, it should be a great release
[11:10] <mdke> GNOME feels faster to me too
[11:10] <LaserJock> KDE is feeling pretty snappy today for me
[11:11] <mdke> cool
[11:11] <theCore> with such fix there's no need to upgrade my PC ;)
[11:11] <theCore> i will just need to install dapper
[11:11] <LaserJock> theCore: lol, but think how fast it would be with an upgraded computer ;-)
[11:12] <mdke> twice as fast
[11:12] <theCore> LaserJock, yea, but my celeron 533 is doing the job for me
[11:17] <LaserJock> I've got an AMD 1800+ but will be getting a new iMac G5 after Christmas for work
[11:17] <LaserJock> those G5's are pretty fast
[11:17] <theCore> mdke, actually it would be more like 4 or 6 time faster
[11:18] <theCore> LaserJock, least compatible though
[11:18] <LaserJock> theCore: yeah, but I can't do anything about that
[11:20] <LaserJock> have any of you had any experience running Kate in gnome?
[11:20] <theCore> LaserJock, it worked well for me when I was on FreeBSD
[11:21] <LaserJock> unfortunately, I really like Gnome but I really like some  KDE apps
[11:22] <LaserJock> Amarok has worked ok from me in Gnome so far. It takes longer to load but that isn't a big deal
[11:23] <LaserJock> but I also like Kate, Kile, Kontact, Akregator, and Konsole
[11:23] <mdke> what is akregator?
[11:24] <LaserJock> a RSS reader
[11:24] <theCore> ok I gotta go, I'm going to do bike ride outside at -17 degree celsius with 40 centimeter of snow, it's gonna be a fun ride :)
[11:24] <mdke> theCore, good luck!
[11:24] <LaserJock> theCore: stay warm ;-)
[11:44] <LaserJock> hmm, that was a fast 20