[12:04] ok sure [12:04] i'll do it now, thanks littlepaul [12:04] you subscribed to -doc? [12:05] great [12:05] not yet :) === mdke gasps [12:06] mdke, but http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc.mbox/ubuntu-doc.mbox is in my evolution [12:06] ah great [12:07] re [12:07] wb mhz [12:08] LaserJock: good idea. Actually I had some doubts if people would like the idea so asking in the ML's is nice. [12:08] littlepaul: thx :) [12:08] i'll write something up [12:09] mdke, thx [12:11] mdke, is it possible to organize such a "brainstorming" session on the ml; the involved people could give useful hints about the school idea [12:11] yes [12:12] littlepaul, what is your real name? [12:12] Andreas Brunner [12:13] thanks [12:13] are you the same as ompaul? [12:13] no [12:14] :) [12:14] just littlepaul, a potential ubuntu-doc-school pupil [12:15] :D [12:16] would you envisage the school idea to be (a) a general talk about how the docteam is organised and how to get involved, or (b) a specific talk about the tools, or (c) both [12:17] both; but for the first session the answer fits to a :) [12:18] you could naturally make report regarding a and start with directly with b [12:19] heh [12:19] i'm not convinced we'd be very good at (b) [12:19] it's kinda learn-as-you-go [12:20] sure... [12:23] hmm, I'm starting to wonder if it would be possible to set up some kind of common framework for these -school type ideas [12:23] hehe [12:23] I think they are nice for people wanting to contribute [12:24] LaserJock, could you specifiy your thought? [12:29] ok posted [12:29] well, if there is going to be stuff like doc-school and motu-school maybe there is enough commonality that they could share some stuff. For instance, maybe make a wiki page that has places for people to sign up to "teach" classes or maybe what people want to see. Maybe a common calendar and it would be good to try to maybe work on some of the communication tools, etc. Then people interested in contributing to Ubuntu can g [12:30] LaserJock, we saw up to "contributing to Ubuntu can g" [12:31] ...go to a central place and then see what's going on. [12:31] sorry [12:31] np [12:31] you have to take a breath :) [12:31] LaserJock, mdke thx for your interest :) [12:31] I mean, what is hard for many people wanting to contribute is to really see at a glance what is going on and where things are taking place [12:32] the common framework could be moodle :) [12:32] littlepaul: well, I helped with motu-school so I think the idea is good. The only thing I see is that MOTU is much bigger [12:34] littlepaul: I've never heard of moodle, it looks really cool. That is kinda what I was thinking about [12:34] LaserJock, moodle is maby someday in edubuntu [12:35] LaserJock, ubuntu.com/community/participate? [12:36] LaserJock, I think that ubuntu has some important columns; some of this columns: motu and doc; because motu is big there is a need to enhance also doc :) [12:37] mdke: right, I think that we need to launch from ubuntu.com/community/participate to how to get involved in those areas, what is currently going on, how to get trained, etc. [12:38] sure [12:38] the wiki is an obvious place [12:38] all this steps conduct someday to the ubuntu certification (lpi++) program [12:39] something like moodle would be really nice, but I think it would be quite some work. [12:41] LaserJock, "moodle" could evolve to something important like "launchpad/melone" for the community - in one year or so :) [12:42] littlepaul: sure, just need to get sabdfl to crack the whip ;-) [12:43] hehe [12:45] LaserJock: the advantage to putting all in moodle is that the work would really only need to be done oncwe [12:46] Burglaptop, good point [12:46] right, that is very very important [12:47] I have been helping people learn to package and I have to go over the same stuff over and over [12:49] what is moodle? [12:49] mdke: www.moodle.org [12:49] nm, checking website [12:50] mdke: it is education and python [12:50] it's in Ubuntu [12:50] mdke: sabfdl drools over it [12:50] i can immagine [12:50] http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MainInclusionReportMoodle [12:52] sorry, moodle is php but early versions were python [12:52] whois Madpilot [12:53] bleh... /me is not paying attention, and can't type... [12:53] Madpilot: a bloody hell, my nick is unregged, just a sec [12:53] I would think you would know ;-) [12:53] LaserJock: was trying to remember what a regged nick looked like vs an unregged one :) [12:53] lol === cstudent [n=cstudent@67.129.197.188] has left #ubuntu-doc ["See] [12:57] I wonder how hard it would be to get moodle going for these -schools [12:57] LaserJock: you need to get php past elmo === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:59] bloody xchat-gnome [12:59] hmm, seems like it's hard to get anything past elmo ;-) [12:59] elmo is PHP-phobic? === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:59] any sane sys admin is php phobic [01:03] hmm, well are there any moodle alternatives? [01:04] the wiki? [01:04] probably, at least to begin with [01:07] LaserJock, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managed_learning_environment [01:09] littlepaul: cool, thanks. lots there [01:10] http://www.edutools.info/course/compare/byproduct/index.jsp nice comparison site :) [01:13] gtgn, thx for talking :) === jsgotangco [n=ubuntu@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:19] hmm, there are some none PHP moodle-like apps [01:20] none with the market share and developers than moodle has behind it [01:21] hey ho [01:22] salut jsgotangco [01:25] ok, well I gotta go but I might have to think about this moodle idea [01:26] hey Burglaptop how's work and life? [01:27] jsgotangco: not bad [01:30] LaserJock: I got back from tea time and read your posts on schools.. I agree with you [01:30] Burglaptop: Moodle is very good [01:31] Burglaptop: but you can also make Moin very good for learning instances [01:31] mhz, blah :) [01:31] after all, the importance is focused on Content rather than a tool [01:32] jsgotangco: hehehe, it's true. moin is already there and we use maybe 60% of its potential only [01:32] and we don't have to worry about php sec. issues [01:33] yeah [01:33] hmm, well maybe I should give some thought to what the best way to help potential Ubuntu contributors learn what they need to get plugged into various teams [01:33] i'd still go the moodle route though, its well established already on this regard [01:34] It *Just Works* (TM) [01:34] yup, Moodle is very good. Also, we could use eXeLearning [01:34] integration [01:34] OR, we could use InterWiki feature to 'sync' content on diff Wiki servers [01:35] and maybe even include the WikiLearn concept === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-136-146.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === theCore [n=theCore@Toronto-HSE-ppp3776044.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === irvin [n=irvin@125.212.73.46] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=thecore@Toronto-HSE-ppp3776044.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-136-146.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === irvin [n=irvin@125.212.73.46] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-136-146.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === LaserJock [n=mantha@ppp-69-239-136-146.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:06] LaserJock, hi [06:07] hi theCore [06:08] the yelp fix is awsome :-) [06:08] do you know about it ? [06:09] wich one? [06:09] the one [06:10] theCore: I saw it, I haven't tried it out yet [06:10] I just got yelp to not segfault on me [06:10] lol [06:11] sudo gedit /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/common/db-{title,xref,label}.xsl [06:11] then remove the line [06:11] and yelp will be speed up by 200% [06:12] ok, just a sec. I gotta load up my vnc connection [06:16] hmm, that is nice [06:17] there's no need for shipping html, with that fix [06:17] yes [06:19] except maybe for having a search tool [06:19] we get printing though [06:19] heh [06:19] well, search is coming for yelp isn't it? [06:19] jsgotangco, that true [06:19] :) [06:20] LaserJock, there is no upstream patch for such at the moment, just printing and yelp speedups [06:20] speeding up yelp alone is a major breakthrough [06:21] http://blogs.gnome.org/view/shaunm/2005/12/16/0 says that 2.14 will do search [06:22] previous versions had some simple search [06:23] at least we can say the itch was addressed due to something that doesn't work in ubuntu === jsgotangco is still docbook crack fiend [06:24] lol === poningru [n=poningru@pool-70-110-73-195.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:34] mhz: got done with the dishes? [06:34] yup [06:34] everything here is manual [06:34] :) === jsgotangco also manually washes dishes [06:35] yeah, I am lucky to have a dish washer [06:35] although it is so crappy I sometimes wonder if I should do it by hand [06:36] we couldnt use dish wahser in my family. AFAIK, they consume too much energy and we -humans- need to save energy :) [06:36] it doesn't clean as well compared to doing it by yourself unless you are a very crappy washer from the start :) [06:36] lol! [06:36] I wait until the counter vanishes, then do dishes... :P [06:36] Palmolive and a sponge is all you need heh [06:36] indeed [06:37] Madpilot: I would do that but my wife doesn't agree ;-) [06:37] we should have ubuntu-housekeepers [06:37] lol [06:37] I'm actually trying to breed self-washing dishes, so all that stuff on the counter is actually experiments, not a mess! :P [06:37] I'm sure we could arrange a mailing list ;-) [06:37] LaserJock: we can cry there [06:38] happily [06:38] and jsgotangco could recommend some creams and stuff [06:38] hah [06:38] for hands [06:38] its not like i do it everyday :P [06:38] I just wish housekeeping could be a cron job [06:38] oh === jsgotangco is not really into hand creams and lotions [06:38] lol [06:38] LaserJock: if it were a cron job we'd be scrwed [06:39] oh well we're bordering already to offtopic anyways [06:39] on a second thought... I think i dont have a cron for housekeeping but i do have a daemon running after me, chasing me... my-wife [06:39] have any of you seen Mark's talk at debconf 5? [06:40] mhz: I agree [06:40] LaserJock: i bet [06:41] I just watched the .mpeg of his talk and I think it should be required or something for ubuntu-user subscribers [06:42] LaserJock: link for that? [06:42] please [06:43] meh... two days until the next CC meeting, and they **still** haven't fixed a time for it... [06:44] a direct link is http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/mpeg/2005-07-14/02-Ubuntu_Talk-Mark_Shuttleworth.mpeg but it is over 100 MB [06:44] or 200MB I mean [06:44] broadband is wonderful :) [06:44] oh, yeah. I download 4 talks [06:44] Mark's was the longest though [06:44] 1hr11min I think [06:45] Madpilot: what if time were rotating 3 hours every meeting? [06:45] but it seems to me that a lot of the arguments on ubuntu-users and elsewhere would be greatly reduced if people just watched his presentation [06:46] mhz: not sure what you mean? [06:46] let's say last meeting was 12 UTC, then next meeting should be 15 UTC [06:46] and so on [06:46] ah, OK [06:47] I think it would just confuse people, to be honest :) [06:47] so, we'd know already [06:47] mhz: I don't think that would happen because the CC wouldn't care to get up that early [06:47] hehehehe [06:47] or stay up that late... [06:47] jsgotangco: what time (local) is 1700Z, btw? [06:49] LaserJock , lol it's a mepg video, isn't ubuntu should use free formats? [06:49] oh, there is oggtheora too [06:49] but I'm on Windows right now so I got the .mpeg [06:49] LaserJock, feeew [06:49] http://wiki.debian.org/?DebConf5Talks is the page that has all the links though [06:50] indeed [06:50] I loved the logo! [06:51] http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/ogg_theora/368x288/2005-07-14/ [06:51] ogg videos there ^^^ [06:51] i had already found it, but thanks === LaserJock is downloading "Package Management and Revision Control, A wedding" presently [06:58] LaserJock, Package Management ? hmm, i must get that video too [07:00] Mark talks about how packaging over time really is like branches in a revision control system. He was talking about the possibility of running the packaging using baz or something to that effect [07:00] I suspect that might be what this talk is about but I don't know [07:01] Madpilot, that's 3am on my side and probably around 5am on rob's [07:02] oh wait that's only 2am [07:03] jsgotangco: yeah, I just figured that out - sorry, for some reason I was thinking 1700Z was only about midnight in your part of the globe! [07:03] Madpilot, you can always refer to timeanddate anyways =) [07:04] i could tolerate such meetings till 2am i guess but it'll be much harder for those in au [07:06] so even the 1400Z meetings start at 2300 local for you, right? [07:06] right [07:06] thats still early for me [07:10] Mark seem nervous on that video ... [07:11] well, it is a Debian conference. There are still quite a few people that don't really appreciate Ubuntu. [07:12] lol, that's true [07:12] 'just quite a few' :D [07:39] good night, all! [07:39] night === poningru_ [n=poningru@pool-70-110-69-84.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:30] interesting - Mark did seem a bit jumpy all thru that talk at debconf... [08:39] Madpilot: have you seen other talks by him? [08:40] some short videos from UBZ === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:41] not sure if they're still available somewhere, but he's noticably more relaxed in the UBZ stuff [08:41] oh, I have never seen any other talk by him so I didn't notice it much === rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === irvin [n=irvin@125.212.73.46] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [n=ealden@219.90.91.164] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-254.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === littlepaul [n=littlepa@p5084CAC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === HrdwrBoB [n=matt@bob.is.teh.admin.at.vicnet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:47] a thought about all the logfiles (people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ and http://netz.smurf.noris.de/logs/freenode/2005/) arround. I think there is much unused potential. A webfrontend that searches through this logfiles would help to raise the relevance of the included content === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === littlepaul [n=littlepa@p5084CBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke considers unsubscribing from sounder [08:10] blimey it is heavy stuff [08:11] what is heavy? [08:12] the incessant long posts about anally retentive subjects [08:12] welcome to a sign of a maturing community [08:13] _maturing_? [08:13] we have lots of people and some of them like to listen to themselves post === mdke nods [08:14] some of the posts are pretty interesting, others are just a pita [08:16] sweet, daf is back === mdke sighs again at sounder === poningru [n=poningru@pool-70-110-77-115.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:37] man, I just don't understand what they are even arguing about, if they are === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:41] no, as burg says, just loving the sound of their own voice [08:45] I used to be really bad for that fault, so I have a good idea how to spot it [08:45] lol [08:48] if you listen to Madpilot, I still am === Burglaptop wonders if it is a bad thing that a relative is involved in my hobby === mdke listens to Madpilot [08:50] where is Rob these days? [08:50] >_< === LaserJock [n=mantha@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:59] afternoon :) [09:00] hello [09:00] jjesse: you run KDE, right? [09:00] yup [09:00] cool, I'm doing irc from Konversation right now [09:00] both breezy and dapper [09:00] version of kubuntu [09:01] I thought I would take the plunge and try KDE out [09:01] on Ubuntu at least [09:01] its a lot better then gnome :P [09:01] I used to use it on SuSE and Gentoo [09:01] jjesse: arguable [09:01] I am going stircrazy stuck in this house [09:01] Burglaptop: i know i was being sarcastic [09:01] Burglaptop: to each thier own [09:02] Burglaptop: how long do you have to be there? [09:02] I tried Kubuntu once in Hoary and it didn't seem that great [09:02] alot of chnages have taken place [09:02] LaserJock: until I recover, several days at least [09:03] jjesse: NO, everybody much use the one true desktop! ICEWM!!! [09:03] Burglaptop: well, I hope you recover quickly [09:03] one desktop to rule them all... [09:03] Burglaptop: arrgghhh, I hate ICEWM [09:03] only FVWM [09:03] LaserJock: it is going well, but the operation took 45 minutes in what should have been 10 [09:03] or maybe Openbox for the light hearted [09:04] Burglaptop: that's no good. My mom had surgery on Friday. She will be recovering over our Christmas vacation [09:05] LaserJock: ouch. Thanks to the powers of the neighbours internet and Canonical's laptop, I can continue to do work while stuck here [09:06] Burglaptop: are the Canonical laptops good? I have heard about them but I don't know the specs. [09:06] every on is different [09:07] on/one* [09:07] otherwise there would be no point testing em ;) [09:07] yeah, but do the spend lots of money on them or are they cheapos [09:07] I just wondered. It is a cool idea [09:08] varies i guess [09:08] see LaptopTestingTeam on the wiki [09:08] My wife has a laptop but I don't think she would like me putting Ubuntu on it. [09:09] LaserJock: mine is a low-end business model [09:09] sure she would :) === Burglaptop brings out his sales and marketing wonk hat [09:10] LaserJock: it is not that hard. Simply find out what annoys her about using the computer and then match the features of Ubuntu to that "pain". That is the value you can sell [09:11] either that or break her XP install [09:11] that worked for Madpilot [09:11] mine lappy is nice /me hugs laptop [09:12] other than the battery life (1.5 hours), mine is great too [09:13] I think the problem is that I would be taking over her laptop too much. ;-) [09:13] "Honey, I just need to test one more thing and then you can surf Ebay." [09:14] LaserJock: I would handle that objection by saying you will need to do less work on the laptop overall [09:14] less to make it Just Work, that is [09:15] I think it would be better for me to go with, " I need to buy a new laptop so that I don't take over yours all the time" [09:15] i find Ubuntu a lot more productive than windows [09:15] mdke: I certainly don't, I just spend all my time doing Ubuntu work and not real work ;-) [09:15] but that's my problem === mdke nods [09:17] and now my one Ubuntu box at work is going to be replaced with an iMac so it will be interesting to see how much I will be able to test stuff. [09:17] LaserJock: dual booting is easy to setup, then one day jsut forget to boot back to windows and see if she complains :) [09:17] stick Ubuntu on that too [09:18] mdke: not that easy. I need quite a bit of software for my reasearch that is only on Mac or Windows :( [09:18] change research [09:18] lol [09:18] LaserJock: i'm in the same position as you [09:18] need a lot of windows only software at work [09:19] I'm 4 years into my PhD. I don't think I'm going to abandon it for Ubuntu. I will definately still be working, I just need to move some stuff around [09:19] I think I will set up my Ubuntu box at home and then ssh and vnc to it from the iMac [09:21] We just need Ubuntu to take over the science field and then it will be better. [09:22] what software is it that is the blocker? [09:22] Right now a lot of people are moving from Windows to OSX. I hope they will then move from OSX to Ubuntu ;-) [09:22] mdke: usually data collection and analysis. For me at least [09:23] why haven't the geeks written linux versions? [09:23] mdke: because we are doing research not programming [09:23] brb [09:24] I think that is the essential problem. Scientist might be willing to write a program for there specific need but it is usually not very good for general use [09:25] as Helen Faulkner said at Debconf5 many linux developers think that scientist should be allowed to write programs :-) [09:25] s/should/shouldn't/ [09:27] part of the problem I suppose is also that science is generally well funded [09:28] my boss has no problem dropping $300/person on data analysis software [09:29] even though he his a dedicated linux user (couldn't use Windows to save his life) he find OSX to be easier and more productive for him. [09:30] of course the most recent linux experience he had was with Fedora Core 1 running FVWM so ... [09:35] LaserJock: I feel sorry for him [09:36] I do too, but now he thinks OSX is wonderful because he can do the linux things that he was used to but also run MS Office, etc. === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:39] OS X is both our greatest blessing and our greatest curse [09:39] I agree [09:41] hmm, the beeb article is wrong about the IE stuff [09:41] they state that 1 in 10 websites don't work with FF, but forget to mention that some of those websites only work on IE on windows, not on Mac [09:48] dang, ok enough, ubuntu under attack -> trash [09:48] ugh, lack of namespaces in our wiki pisses me off, again [09:48] gesh [09:50] Burglaptop: how so? === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:52] LaserJock: very hard to see what is a doc, what is person, etc. [09:52] ahh, I see. [09:52] makes sorting RecentChanges a painful exercise [09:53] yes I suppose === mpt [n=mpt@201-1-130-105.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:09] Burglaptop: did I read you right yesterday, in that you're borrowing your neighbor's WiFi access? if so, how do you give it back when you're done? ;-) [10:10] Burglaptop: did you just jump on their open access point then? i mean do your neighbors know you're using it? === littlepaul [n=littlepa@p5084CBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["...] [10:17] bshumate: I just jump on their open access point [10:17] and no, they don't know i am using it === theCore [n=theCore@Toronto-HSE-ppp3776044.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:19] i can get my neighbors upstairs in the bedroom [10:20] jjesse: I didn't know you had it in you! [10:22] grin i only do it once in awhile [10:22] all the neighbours here have closed APs [10:22] have to be in a specfic location [10:22] grrrr [10:23] isn't that essentially stealing though? i mean aren't there laws against this kind of thing? [10:23] _sharing_ [10:24] it's the open source way === mdke digs out mako's blog post about it [10:24] bshumate: likely but it is pretty harmless theft [10:26] blimey mako needs a search engine on his blog [10:26] http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/reflections/20050730-00.html [10:26] Burglaptop, if the guy, that you suck the internet, has bandwidth limit, it can be harmful to him [10:26] "harmless theft"? i tend to think theft is theft. sounds unethical to me. sharing is more apt to involve both parties knowledge. i know if you were "sharing" my electricity from my house without my knowledge, I'd sure not be happy about it! [10:27] but in Canada you don't pay by the bit [10:27] you pay a flat cost, ergo I don't cost them anything [10:28] Burglaptop, it debend of your ISP [10:29] bshumate, i'd argue that them leaving the AP open is consent to you using it [10:29] hmmm... the article doen't seem to make any good points. [10:29] for the pure reason that people need to get smarter [10:29] sure the article makes good points [10:29] in the case of the access points specifically, both parties should be held accountable....the owner for leaving it open, and the person who uses it without permission. [10:29] theCore: yes, but both Shaw and Telus charge a flat rate up to an extremely high cap [10:29] Every time my Internet connection at home goes down, I take advantage of one my neighbors APs. To balance things out, I make sure I always run an open AP for others out my home. [10:30] doing so is about being a good neighbor [10:30] kamion runs a dual network, an open AP for the world and a closed AP for him [10:30] mdke: so long as everyone understands that to be the arrangement, then i am fine with that...that *is* sharing [10:30] but to just take, without the other party's knowledge, is theft really. [10:31] i really don't think it's a big deal [10:31] interesting nonetheless. [10:32] bshumate: as mdke can tell you, part of the test for theft is how much damage you have cost the person you stole from [10:32] heh [10:32] not in our law :) [10:32] you guys obviously changed it :p [10:32] Canuck law is an odd hybrid of US, UK and French law [10:33] Burglaptop: so you are stating that morally, it is ok to steal a penny, but not a hundred bucks? [10:33] bshumate: nope [10:33] depends on who you steal if from [10:33] Burglaptop: but the "damage" is different, is it not? [10:33] bshumate: I am saying that my use doesn't cost them anything and thus does not damage them [10:33] Gates isn't gonna miss it [10:33] mdke: ohhhhh... [10:34] mdke: interesting angle / philosophy there. ;-) [10:34] nor do I engage in illegal activities with their connection [10:34] not really [10:34] its a fairly uncontroversial aspect of morally to focus on the damage done to others [10:34] mdke: it is the classic "Robin Hood" mentality towards theft, actually... [10:35] yes [10:35] as i said, uncontroversial [10:36] everyone agrees that Robin Hood was not an immoral man, except for the leotards [10:36] mdke: the leotards are arguable as well [10:36] LOL [10:36] mdke: heh heh [10:36] Burglaptop, did you say you had a _girl_friend? [10:38] omg they are still at it on sounder [10:38] interesting, and enlightening chat, fellows. [10:38] mdke: I do indeed have a girl friend. Madpilot can even verify that [10:38] what is this sounder business? [10:38] bshumate, a mailing list @lists.ubuntu.com [10:38] ahhh, [10:41] so Burglaptop [10:41] i started writing a slimmed down about-ubuntu.xml [10:41] i take it sounder is a high traffic mailing list? [10:41]