| === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| === Crackez [n=crackez@pcp0011289023pcs.norstn01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| Crackez | so, does anyone else have a Compaq Proliant PL1500? | 01:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Crackez | i'm having no end of problems with it and ubuntu | 01:07 |
| Crackez | it's a dual P3 Xeon, | 01:07 |
| Crackez | 1GB RAM, Compaq Smart Array RAID controller | 01:08 |
| Crackez | the network interface won't come up on boot | 01:08 |
| Crackez | it's a TI ThunderLan integrated on the motherboard | 01:09 |
| Crackez | the tlan driver loads, but the interface isn't brought up | 01:09 |
| Crackez | btw, I just installed 5.10, so it's pretty fresh | 01:10 |
| Crackez | would anyone have any ideas about the network interface not coming up? | 01:17 |
| Unfun | does it show in ifconfig | 01:19 |
| Crackez | ifconfig -a | 01:19 |
| Unfun | yea | 01:19 |
| Unfun | does it show up as an interface | 01:19 |
| Crackez | yeah | 01:20 |
| Crackez | it shows up | 01:20 |
| nictuku | what mii-tool says about it | 01:20 |
| Crackez | it is not up however | 01:20 |
| Unfun | and if you do ifconfig eth0 some.ip.addy up | 01:20 |
| Unfun | does it indeed come up? | 01:20 |
| Crackez | i just did this: ifconfig eth0 up && dhclient eth0 | 01:20 |
| Crackez | it works after that | 01:21 |
| Crackez | it just doesn't come up at boot | 01:21 |
| nictuku | :P | 01:21 |
| Unfun | what does /etc/network/interfaces contain | 01:21 |
| Crackez | hold on, let me install sshd so i can copy/paste the info | 01:22 |
| Crackez | crap | 01:23 |
| Crackez | dpkg seems confused | 01:24 |
| Crackez | i wonder, when I did the install, i used LVM, and it complained that I would have to reboot in order for the devmapper to notice the changes | 01:25 |
| Crackez | so I did, but it didn't quite reboot, it hung | 01:25 |
| Crackez | and i'm not sure if I reformatted after the reboot | 01:25 |
| Unfun | maybe you're still in rc2 | 01:25 |
| Unfun | not fully booted | 01:25 |
| Crackez | it finished the install | 01:25 |
| Crackez | and this is ubuntu-server, so it shouldn't drop me into gdm right? | 01:26 |
| Crackez | maybe i should just reinstall | 01:26 |
| Unfun | right | 01:26 |
| Unfun | no gdm | 01:26 |
| Unfun | unless you install it | 01:27 |
| Crackez | yeah, you know, the more i think about it, i don't think i reformatted / after the reboot | 01:27 |
| Crackez | after it complained... | 01:27 |
| Unfun | arent smart array raid controllers hardware raid | 01:28 |
| Unfun | why are you doing LVM | 01:28 |
| Crackez | snapshotting | 01:28 |
| Crackez | unless it's now safe to backup a live fs... | 01:28 |
| Unfun | you're snapping to another disk? | 01:29 |
| Crackez | no, same disk | 01:29 |
| Crackez | i left 500MB of free space | 01:29 |
| Unfun | why not let the raid controller just do raid-1 | 01:29 |
| Crackez | cause i have 6 disks | 01:29 |
| Unfun | ahh | 01:29 |
| Crackez | and they are only 9gb/disk | 01:30 |
| Crackez | i have a DAC960 in my other box running kubuntu, it's only got 3 18gb scsi disks, raid0 | 01:31 |
| Crackez | man is it fast | 01:31 |
| Crackez | regarding the SmartArray, it says it's still initializing the array | 01:31 |
| Unfun | raid-1? | 01:32 |
| Unfun | or 5 | 01:32 |
| Crackez | raid4 | 01:32 |
| Unfun | it wont be instant | 01:32 |
| Crackez | yeah, i know | 01:32 |
| Crackez | i wouldn't think it would interfere with the installer | 01:33 |
| Unfun | no it shouldnt | 01:33 |
| Unfun | just wont be speedy | 01:33 |
| Crackez | i mean, i've installed CentOS on this machine before while it was still initializing, and it just took a while... | 01:33 |
| Crackez | i just started a reinstall | 01:35 |
| Crackez | and the installer activated the network right the first time | 01:35 |
| Unfun | awh yea | 01:35 |
| Unfun | this is where you do a little dance | 01:35 |
| Unfun | and chant "ubuntu" | 01:35 |
| Crackez | i cant chant | 01:35 |
| Unfun | stomp your feet then | 01:36 |
| === Crackez stomps | ||
| Unfun | there we go | 01:36 |
| Crackez | formatting /boot | 01:37 |
| Crackez | that was fast | 01:37 |
| Crackez | formatting /, it zipped right up to 79%, and slowed down | 01:39 |
| Unfun | still doing /? | 01:39 |
| Crackez | i wonder if thats a good indication of how far along the parity initialization is | 01:39 |
| Crackez | well, it formated /boot, then I had to do the lvm config | 01:40 |
| Crackez | now / just finished | 01:40 |
| Crackez | now it's installing the base system | 01:40 |
| Crackez | so, this ought to take a little while | 01:41 |
| Crackez | i wish ubuntu could autodetect smp-ness | 02:30 |
| Crackez | and isntall the most appropriate kernel | 02:30 |
| nictuku | that's a must for servers. | 02:31 |
| Crackez | also, i've had an issue wit 2 raid controllers | 02:31 |
| Crackez | i have to add the module to the initrd manually before the first boot | 02:32 |
| Crackez | it's a bummer when it doesn't find the root fs | 02:32 |
| Crackez | i guess thats not just a server related thing though, | 02:34 |
| Crackez | i noticed it first with kubuntu | 02:34 |
| === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| Valandil | f*ankuschel* | 02:39 |
| Valandil | hupps | 02:39 |
| Valandil | wrong frame :-(( | 02:40 |
| Unfun | Crackez, yea i had that problem with my install | 03:06 |
| Unfun | Installed a non SMP kernel on a dual opteron i had. | 03:07 |
| Crackez | well, i can't even get the machine to boot at all now | 03:08 |
| Unfun | awesome | 03:08 |
| Crackez | it hangs somewhere in the boot | 03:08 |
| Crackez | either that or I get to the login screen and my keyboard doesn't respond | 03:08 |
| Crackez | i wonder if it could be the crappy onboard video, when it crashes, i usualy get a few odd chars scattered around the screen | 03:10 |
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| === FlannelKing [n=flannel@crlsbd-cuda5-68-67-177-17.crlsca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| Pygi | welcome | 05:34 |
| FlannelKing | What's the suggested method of dealing with ftp users and web servers, have them upload as www-data? or what? (I'm having problems getting mod_perl to work) | 05:34 |
| FlannelKing | thanks Pygi | 05:35 |
| === Unfun [n=Unfun@c-24-5-74-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| infinity | FlannelKing : www-data shouldn't own any files (except temporary junk create on the fly by CGI scripts) unless you want a world of pain. | 06:12 |
| Unfun | i want a world of pain | 06:15 |
| Pygi | Unfun: that's not a polite answer, you know... | 06:16 |
| fabbione | morning | 06:16 |
| Pygi | mornin' | 06:16 |
| FlannelKing | alright, that's why Im asking. so, what would I set up? | 06:16 |
| FlannelKing | Heck, which ftp server would be easiest for this? | 06:16 |
| Pygi | Apache? ;) | 06:17 |
| FlannelKing | ftp server, apache, eh? | 06:17 |
| Pygi | heh, sorry, wrong one ;) | 06:17 |
| FlannelKing | hehe | 06:17 |
| Pygi | lol xD | 06:17 |
| Pygi | I am still sleepy, 6:17 AM ;) | 06:17 |
| FlannelKing | no problem | 06:17 |
| Pygi | been awake all night ;) | 06:17 |
| Pygi | VSFTPD | 06:18 |
| Pygi | mislim da je ovo server, iako nisam trenutno u nista siguran ;) | 06:19 |
| FlannelKing | yeah, Ive got that. | 06:19 |
| FlannelKing | hmm | 06:19 |
| FlannelKing | I imagine that's another language. | 06:19 |
| Pygi | lol, sorry :/ | 06:20 |
| Pygi | I think it's a server software, altought currently I am not sure in anythin' | 06:20 |
| FlannelKing | gotcha. but yeah, vsFTPD is what I have currently. Just wondering about some of the config stuff and making it work with mod_perl, | 06:21 |
| FlannelKing | dont know if its my ftp or my perl config that's the problem | 06:21 |
| Pygi | mod_perl? it's used for apache if I am not mistaken | 06:24 |
| Pygi | and perl cgi scripts will work even without mod_perl | 06:25 |
| FlannelKing | no, I know that. I'm trying to get it to work with apache | 06:25 |
| FlannelKing | added the AddHandler to my perl.conf, but now I get a 403:Forbidden when trying to access it | 06:26 |
| FlannelKing | I chmod'd it +x, before that.... hmm, let me undo it | 06:27 |
| FlannelKing | nope, still 403 | 06:27 |
| Pygi | heh :/ | 06:28 |
| Pygi | what apache and what mod_perl are you using? | 06:29 |
| Pygi | version? | 06:29 |
| FlannelKing | umm, 2.0, and... whatever's in ubuntus repos | 06:29 |
| FlannelKing | or, 2.x (whatver is apache2 in ubuntu) | 06:30 |
| Pygi | Apache 2.0 doesn't work with mod_perl 1.0. | 06:30 |
| Pygi | Apache 1.0 doesn't work with mod_perl 2.0. | 06:30 |
| FlannelKing | no, Ive got them right | 06:31 |
| FlannelKing | libapache2-modperl2 | 06:31 |
| Pygi | installed with apt-get? | 06:31 |
| FlannelKing | and apache2 | 06:31 |
| FlannelKing | aye | 06:31 |
| FlannelKing | it came with apache2, I think. | 06:31 |
| FlannelKing | since, I don't remember flagging it by hand | 06:31 |
| Pygi | try reading this I guess if you feel upto it | 06:32 |
| Pygi | http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/install.html | 06:32 |
| Valandil | OK, n8 guys :) | 06:58 |
| Valandil | &quit | 06:58 |
| FlannelKing | anyone alive currently? | 06:58 |
| fabbione | yup | 06:59 |
| FlannelKing | woohoo | 07:00 |
| FlannelKing | Im having a mod_perl/apache problem | 07:00 |
| fabbione | but i am not sure i can provide any sensible answer before i finish my coffee | 07:00 |
| FlannelKing | heh | 07:00 |
| FlannelKing | sensible isn't required ;) | 07:00 |
| fabbione | is that apache2+mod_perl2? | 07:00 |
| FlannelKing | yeah | 07:00 |
| fabbione | hm ok | 07:01 |
| FlannelKing | 2.0.54 (apache) and 2.0.1 m_p | 07:01 |
| fabbione | mind to explain the problem or do you want me to dig in the scroll back? | 07:01 |
| FlannelKing | and, I added the conf and the load file to modules to mods-enabled | 07:01 |
| FlannelKing | well, they were already added, upon apt-getting mod_perl | 07:01 |
| FlannelKing | but, it wasnt working (just displaying the file as text) | 07:02 |
| fabbione | yes i know.. just tell me about the problem :) | 07:02 |
| FlannelKing | so, I added the AddHandler to the .conf file | 07:02 |
| FlannelKing | but, now I get a 503 error when I go to it | 07:02 |
| FlannelKing | I dont know if its a perl/apache problem, or a ftp/permissions/ownership whatever problem | 07:03 |
| FlannelKing | since, Im not too certain Im doing that correctly either | 07:03 |
| fabbione | hmmmm | 07:03 |
| fabbione | why don't you try one thing at a time? | 07:03 |
| fabbione | like creating a hello world perl thingy | 07:03 |
| fabbione | with 777 | 07:04 |
| FlannelKing | well, it's uploaded fine, Im just not sure what the owner should be | 07:04 |
| fabbione | and www-data:www-data | 07:04 |
| fabbione | just to test | 07:04 |
| FlannelKing | see, I asked if it should be www-data:www-data earlier | 07:04 |
| fabbione | and start from there to see when/where it fails | 07:04 |
| fabbione | no it must not be www-data | 07:04 |
| FlannelKing | (if my ftp should upload everything as www-data) and someone said that was a bad thing to do | 07:04 |
| fabbione | but to start debugging with hello world is ok | 07:04 |
| fabbione | that someone is one of the apache2 maintainer and he is right | 07:05 |
| fabbione | start as i say :) | 07:05 |
| fabbione | and slowly restric permissions | 07:05 |
| fabbione | so you will see where/when it starts to fail | 07:05 |
| fabbione | again | 07:05 |
| fabbione | don't use the full code | 07:05 |
| fabbione | just "hello world" | 07:05 |
| fabbione | that's safe enough for debugging | 07:05 |
| FlannelKing | yeah, still a 503 | 07:07 |
| FlannelKing | erm | 07:07 |
| FlannelKing | 403 | 07:07 |
| FlannelKing | heh | 07:07 |
| fabbione | did you setup the vhost properly? | 07:07 |
| FlannelKing | I dont know? | 07:08 |
| FlannelKing | its jsut plain /var/www | 07:08 |
| FlannelKing | And I can access other files there | 07:08 |
| fabbione | it doesn't matter.. cgi and stuff need to go in specific places.. | 07:08 |
| fabbione | i really suggest you to read the documentation | 07:08 |
| FlannelKing | I did, and did what it said. | 07:08 |
| fabbione | this is basic apache setup | 07:08 |
| FlannelKing | http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/howto/cgi.html | 07:09 |
| FlannelKing | that right there. did the addhandler thing, so I could do it in any directory. | 07:09 |
| fabbione | check /var/log/apache2/errors.log | 07:10 |
| fabbione | it will tell you what you are doing wrong | 07:10 |
| FlannelKing | it says Options ExecCGI is off, but I've explicitly set it on... at least, I think I have. | 07:26 |
| fabbione | turn it on | 07:26 |
| FlannelKing | as far as I know, It is. | 07:26 |
| FlannelKing | <Directory /var/www> | 07:27 |
| FlannelKing | Options +ExecCGI | 07:27 |
| FlannelKing | then close directory | 07:27 |
| FlannelKing | right? | 07:27 |
| fabbione | Options ExecCGI | 07:28 |
| fabbione | why +? | 07:28 |
| FlannelKing | no +? | 07:28 |
| FlannelKing | because thats what the apache doc said | 07:28 |
| fabbione | there are examples config files in /etc/apache2/ | 07:29 |
| fabbione | look at them | 07:29 |
| FlannelKing | ExecCGI isn't in that file at all, and I know what apache conf files look like | 07:30 |
| === rightcoast [n=rightcoa@234.243.204.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| infinity | If you're using AddHandler, you're not using mod_perl. The two are very different. | 08:41 |
| FlannelKing | then how would I use mod_perl? | 08:48 |
| FlannelKing | alright guys, I'm trying to get mod_perl2 on Apache2 working... and, I think I have it (I think), except that my perl file prompts for download, instead of running. What am I doing wrong? | 09:55 |
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| Pygi | welcome matt | 03:11 |
| === maswan [i=maswan@kennedy.acc.umu.se] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| mgalvin | hey mario | 04:19 |
| Pygi | hey matt ;) | 04:27 |
| === Unfun [n=Unfun@c-24-5-74-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-server | ||
| Pygi | welcome Unfun | 04:39 |
| Unfun | Hi Pygi | 04:45 |
| Pygi | Hi hi | 04:45 |
| Unfun | Anyone roll out ubuntu-server in production? | 04:48 |
| Pygi | yes, why not? | 04:48 |
| Unfun | Me too. | 04:48 |
| Unfun | I used to have to compile custom kernels to get my raid controllers to work in debian but Ubuntu worked right out of the install iso | 04:49 |
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| Pygi | welcome lamont | 04:49 |
| Valandil | hi all :) | 04:58 |
| Unfun | helloo | 04:59 |
| Valandil | I don't like modular kernels | 04:59 |
| Pygi | hehe, why not? ;) | 04:59 |
| Valandil | i always compile new kernel for my servers. Also for ubuntu | 04:59 |
| maswan | Unfun: well, ubuntu-server as project or ubuntu on servers? we have one 100-node cluster on ubuntu already. | 04:59 |
| Unfun | ubuntu-server | 04:59 |
| Unfun | which i guess is the same as ubuntu at the moment 5.10 | 04:59 |
| Valandil | Pygi: security-reasons :) | 04:59 |
| Valandil | and performance | 05:00 |
| Pygi | valandil: true | 05:00 |
| Valandil | Pygi: I do not need stuff like evms od hal on a server with static hardware | 05:00 |
| Pygi | yup, I know | 05:00 |
| Valandil | ;) | 05:00 |
| Unfun | stock ubuntu kernel installed as server seems pretty light compared to other distros | 05:01 |
| Valandil | yes, I remember, we talked on this topic before ;) | 05:01 |
| Pygi | Unfun: from daper on, the server will have kernel configured differently then desktop... | 05:02 |
| Unfun | Good | 05:02 |
| Valandil | Pygi: raidstuff? | 05:02 |
| Unfun | speaking of raidstuff, does anything know what cards raidutils package is compatible with for doing actual raid management. | 05:03 |
| Valandil | Unfun: at least adaptec ;) | 05:04 |
| Unfun | root@cvs:~# raidutil -L physical | 05:04 |
| Unfun | Engine connect failed: COMPATIBILITY number | 05:04 |
| Unfun | I have a Adaptec card | 05:04 |
| Valandil | Unfun: no, sadly not all adaptec | 05:04 |
| Unfun | Any way to make it work? | 05:04 |
| Unfun | 2230S | 05:04 |
| Valandil | there are some "soft-raid"-Controllers | 05:04 |
| Valandil | could be, this is such a soft-raid | 05:05 |
| Valandil | same shit as "soft-modem" | 05:05 |
| Unfun | define soft-raid | 05:05 |
| Valandil | the raid-functionality needs driver-support | 05:05 |
| Valandil | it's not completely included in controller-bios | 05:05 |
| Valandil | You can set up raid-levels and all in controller-bios, but without the driver, system only recognizes single disks | 05:06 |
| Unfun | It's quite unfortunate i need to take the box down to bios level to do disk management. | 05:06 |
| Valandil | I'm not shure, if Your card is one of this | 05:07 |
| Valandil | Me I tried 4 weeks | 05:07 |
| Unfun | In the past i've used Dell utilities to do management on the older adaptec cards, but the newer ones arent supported with dellmgr, aka afacli. | 05:08 |
| Valandil | then, I combined the arrays in bios, and took aic79xx driver plus software-raid | 05:08 |
| Valandil | so I can manage my raid in runtime, or I can restore a blown up disk also in bios | 05:09 |
| infinity | The 2230 is not soft RAID. | 05:09 |
| Unfun | infinity, do you use this card? | 05:09 |
| Valandil | infinity: OK, thanks :) | 05:09 |
| infinity | No, but I know adapted products. | 05:09 |
| Unfun | You know of any tools that will let me manage the card under a 2.6 kernel? | 05:10 |
| infinity | (hint: anything selling for that price isn't software-assisted RAID) | 05:11 |
| Unfun | This box is like $5k | 05:11 |
| Unfun | Card i think is like $250USD | 05:11 |
| Unfun | somewhere in there | 05:11 |
| Valandil | infinity: I don't know the price ;) I just looked: the crap was 39320A | 05:11 |
| Valandil | yes, it has been round about 300 Euro | 05:12 |
| infinity | Unfun : I'm not sure, TBH, if there are free tools to manage it. You may be stuck using adaptec's tools, which may also mean using their kernel modules. :/ | 05:12 |
| Unfun | thats what i was afraid of | 05:12 |
| Valandil | good luck ;( | 05:12 |
| Unfun | i def don't want to use their modules | 05:12 |
| infinity | Oh, wait, no. That one uses the free driver anyway. | 05:13 |
| infinity | Adaptec doesn't do closed binaries for aacraid, they contribute to the GPL driver in the kernel. | 05:13 |
| Valandil | cool | 05:14 |
| Unfun | So i'm still probably stuck using their modules if i want to manage this thing | 05:14 |
| Valandil | OK guys, got to leave... cu | 05:14 |
| Pygi | bye | 05:14 |
| infinity | Don't need to use their kernel sources, just their tools... | 05:14 |
| Unfun | let me check out their tools... | 05:15 |
| infinity | Their tools SHOULD work with the Ubuntu kernels. In theory. | 05:15 |
| infinity | But, yeah, the "raidutils" stuff only works with the i2o controllers, which this one isn't. | 05:15 |
| Unfun | ya | 05:15 |
| Unfun | i was looking on the i20 site | 05:15 |
| Unfun | didnt see this card | 05:15 |
| infinity | http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/support/driverdetail.jsp?sess=no&language=English+US&cat=/Product/ASR-2230S&filekey=asm-linux_v2.12(922).rpm | 05:16 |
| Unfun | let me alien that | 05:16 |
| infinity | It's an RPM, but a clever user should be able to alien it. | 05:16 |
| infinity | Should work for anything in the aacraid series. | 05:16 |
| infinity | And SHOULD work with our aacraid driver, no need to use adaptec's driver. | 05:17 |
| Unfun | im going to try it | 05:17 |
| Unfun | alien is converting now | 05:17 |
| Unfun | what link did you grab that from | 05:17 |
| Unfun | this is amd-64 | 05:17 |
| infinity | That'll be an i386 binary, but it should work fine with ia32-libs installed. | 05:18 |
| infinity | I don't see an amd64 binary listed anywhere on their site. | 05:18 |
| Unfun | infinity, thanks for the guidance. | 05:19 |
| Unfun | i appreciate it | 05:19 |
| infinity | Oh, wait. | 05:19 |
| infinity | http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/support/driverdetail.jsp?sess=no&language=English+US&cat=/Product/ASR-2230S&filekey=asm-linux_x86_64_v2.12.tgz | 05:19 |
| infinity | It's a bit older, though. | 05:19 |
| Unfun | if its just a management app i dont mind | 05:19 |
| infinity | Worth a try. | 05:19 |
| infinity | I'd give both a shot. | 05:19 |
| infinity | And let me know if both work, or just one, or whatever. | 05:20 |
| Unfun | ok im giving it a try | 05:20 |
| infinity | I may look into whether or not we can provide download/installer packages in multiverse for crap like this, so... | 05:20 |
| === infinity is heading off to bed. | ||
| infinity | Just ping in channel, or mail me (adconrad@ubuntu.com) to let me know if either (or both) seem to work. | 05:20 |
| Unfun | ok | 05:21 |
| Unfun | i will do that infinity | 05:21 |
| Unfun | crap i need to register to download that | 05:25 |
| Unfun | and i don't know my serial # | 05:25 |
| infinity | Let me grab the files with my AdaptecConnect login. 'Sec. | 05:35 |
| Unfun | awesome, thanks | 05:35 |
| infinity | For future reference, I don't think you actually need to register a product, you can skip that step, and your account will still work to download anything, IIRC. | 05:36 |
| Unfun | yep | 05:37 |
| Unfun | that works | 05:37 |
| Unfun | http://download.adaptec.com/raid/storage_manager/asm-linux_x86_64_v2.12.tgz | 05:37 |
| Unfun | that is a direct link | 05:37 |
| infinity | In that case, I'll let you grab them yourself. :) | 05:38 |
| infinity | My DSL upstream is crap. | 05:38 |
| Unfun | ill grab it off the 100mb link at the data center :) | 05:38 |
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| Pygi | welcome ian | 06:27 |
| ian_brasil | hi | 06:29 |
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| Pygi | welcome matt | 07:58 |
| Pygi | fabbione:ping | 07:58 |
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| Pygi | someone took my name in Ubuntu Server Team ^^ | 11:38 |
| Unfun | Mipe? | 11:39 |
| Pygi | Mario Meyer ;) | 11:40 |
| Pygi | dang :P He took my name ;) | 11:40 |
| Unfun | how do you join the ubuntu server team | 11:46 |
| Pygi | well, you can and you can't | 11:46 |
| Pygi | you must apply, but you need to speak with members/admin so you can get in | 11:47 |
| Unfun | how can i find information as to what the team needs | 11:47 |
| Pygi | well, you ask fabbione once he's here | 11:47 |
| Pygi | I am a member, but I rather wouldn't go into too much detail ;) | 11:47 |
| Unfun | alrighty! | 11:48 |
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