=== bshumate [n=bshumate@adsl-210-97-121.clt.bellsouth.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=ubuntu@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Liz [n=Liz@static-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === OgMaciel [n=omaciel@ubuntu/member/gnukemist] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@pool-68-238-172-74.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === MarioMeyer [n=meyer@ubuntu/member/mariomeyer] has joined #ubuntu-doc === MarioMeyer [n=meyer@ubuntu/member/mariomeyer] has left #ubuntu-doc ["affff"] [03:57] jsgotangco: [03:57] Liz!!!! [03:58] :) [03:58] may i pm you? [03:58] sure === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:23] robitaille, http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20051219#2 [04:23] heh [04:24] file it under idiot users dept. [04:25] "dumb down" and "idot" seem to be the words of the week in Ubuntu-Land [04:26] Linus's comments were last week, actually ;) [04:26] ok...last 7 days :) [04:26] bleah obviously the mini article is just a personal troll [04:27] why did he didn't do "apt-get install gcc" and be done with it???? [04:27] I don't get it... [04:27] doesnt't build-essential have all that compiling stuff in it? [04:27] if youre going to package... [04:27] yes. and build-essential will install "gcc", and gcc is at 4.0 in Breezy [04:28] unless you want to compile the kernell then you probably want gcc-3.4 [04:28] oh wait [04:28] he installed 3.x [04:28] haha [04:28] i just noticed it now [04:28] he'll get creamed [04:29] maybe I should send an email to te sounder list with it :) === bshumate [n=bshumate@adsl-210-97-121.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:42] robitaille, jsgotangco, think I should write a rebuttal? [04:42] sure [04:43] he obviously wrote it as a troll [04:44] yes but trolls on major news sites need answering [04:44] yes [04:47] I think I shall focus on where we are going with dapper, rather than directly answering him [04:48] robitaille: do you have a default debian install? [04:48] does a default debian install come with build-essential installed? [04:49] afaik it doesn't even on the base install cd [04:50] http://packages.debian.org/build-essential [04:50] I will need to make certain that is correct before I write my rebuttal [04:50] Burlaptop: where is this troll?! i need it for my thesis! [04:50] eyurgh *Burglaptop* [04:51] bshumate: tab completion is your friend [04:51] I keep thinking I should install a debian install on my computer... [04:51] Burglaptop: shnikes! [04:51] even in gaim it appears to function! [04:53] Burglaptop: so where is the troll in this major news site? upon which topic does the sub-bridge-dweller write? [04:53] bshumate, yes [04:53] http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20051219#2 [04:53] about gcc [04:55] Burglaptop, I would ask on #ubuntu-devel or #debian. Someone must know if gcc comes on by default with a default debian installation. (last time I install Debian was Woody 2 years ago) [04:55] ask -devel [05:03] woweee...lots of free operating systems ship without a compiler, or development tools of any sort- or some make you select a "Developer" subset of components to install them. it is somewhat sad that his apt-get install gcc didn't leave him with a sane environment, but where's the "dumbing down" part come in? === bshumate cries [05:04] bshumate: that was his follishness [05:06] thats great editing at work [05:06] I believe that fine chap Kevin Cole who recently laid the smack down upon me with his high quality UNIX beard would say something like : it's "Linux for Humans" non? not "Linux for Developers" === jsgotangco cracks up [05:07] possibly first para (pasting dump) [05:07] Ubuntu is going to piss some people off. It is also going to make some people love us. That is ok. Ubuntu strives to be the best Linux distribution in existant (Does not every distribution?). We have clear goals and clear objectives. We are opinionated. We make choices, bold choices and sometimes stupid choices, but we make them. This is no different than any other distribution out there. It is just that sometimes ours are a lit [05:07] tle more bold more out there. [05:07] WTF is a "high quality UNIX beard"? === jsgotangco doesnt want a high quality unix beard [05:08] it's awesome [05:08] a quality gnu/linux distribution === Burglaptop is growing a beard due to forgetting his razor at home and is pretty much trapped at his GF's house [05:09] won't you get noticed as a computer lovin' redneck? [05:10] Burglaptop: a well thought out blog post should do the trick [05:10] whiprush: currently working on it now [05:10] then I tell osnews, etc. about it [05:11] Burglaptop: yes, but is it of this scope and scale? : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinCole Now THAT is a high-quality UNIX beard! === whiprush reads it [05:11] no offense to Mr. Cole at all of course. I happen to sport a junior sized beard myself. [05:12] Burglaptop: sounds like the guy just needs to be told about build-essential. No big deal, it's on the CD and well documented. [05:12] whiprush: we need to answer it because it hit distrowatch [05:12] whiprush: it is more we need to address his hidden objections [05:13] like I say in my talks. The tools are available for experts willing to read the documentation. [05:13] IMO if the user needs to compile something then we've already failed at that task. [05:14] but yeah, I see what you're trying to say. [05:15] and the whole "ubuntu/gnome dumbed down stuff" [05:15] yeah [05:15] but that's just the flavor of the month. [05:15] the way I am wording it will sort of move beyond the debate [05:16] there's a silent majority of people who just want their stuff to work. :) [05:16] and we try to provide that. [05:18] "Ubuntu dumbed down. Recently, the new version of Ubuntu GNU/Linux, 8.10 "Enigmatic Emu" was found to have no terminal applications, nor command-line shell environments at all. Only graphical environments on X further indicating a conspiracy by Microsoft to dumb down this popular distribution." === bshumate works on his copy for the Onion [05:18] bshumate: you need to go one further [05:18] we simply won't ship an X server or DE [05:18] nor any tools, nor a kernel [05:18] I deal with people like this every day at work. [05:19] "I can't root. I can't do foo ..." [05:19] just a bit of patience and some guidance goes a long way. [05:20] clear communication of the goals also helps [05:20] I can feel the frustration though, sometimes I want to drive their heads through a wall, but commmunication does the trick. [05:20] right [05:20] what you just said. :) [05:21] Burglaptop: ship the documentation though!!! [05:21] cause EVERYONE reads THAT!!! ;-P [05:21] bshumate: yes, all you get are docs telling you how you should go outside because you dont need a computer === Burglaptop resists the urge to have more icecream to deal with the pain [05:22] Burglaptop: blog soon though, I've been giving it alot of thought and want to do the same and I don't want to collide posts on planet. :) [05:22] whiprush: should be up within the hour [05:22] k [05:22] I would let me talking about the same subject stop you from blogging === jsgotangco starts hugging his pcbsd box [05:24] ok, the pain won. I am having more icecream [05:29] wow when i try to update dbus im asked to download a quarter of the size of the distro [05:29] heh [05:36] haha it removed like 80% of gnome functionality [05:37] jsgotangco: the ca. mirror must be behind. I don't have the dbus yet === LaserJock [n=mantha@adsl-69-104-116-142.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:42] whiprush: posted [05:43] k [05:48] Burglaptop, the ca. mirror is always a bit behind. I always point to the uk mirror on my dapper machine [05:50] robitaille: I am not concerned === theCore [n=theCore@Toronto-HSE-ppp3776663.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:29] heh oh well [06:29] it definitely screwed my unit [06:29] dbus love =) [07:06] the actual time for the next CC meeting *still* hasn't been posted... [07:08] yay we'll be meeting all night [07:11] if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make it but I'd better go to be soon; if it's a 2200Z (or whatever) meeting then I'll be at work... [07:13] are you on queue? [07:15] for Membership? No, I've been waiting to see when this next meeting is... ;) === rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:28] Burglaptop: awake still? [07:29] mr. fridge! [07:30] mr. fridge? [07:31] no no [07:31] jdub is mr. fridge [07:31] I merely stock it. [07:31] and you are doing a very good job at it [07:32] nah nah [07:32] need more content [07:33] actually ... we need to showcase some docteam work [07:33] grrr === robitaille wishes he had more time to provide actual content === rob1 same [07:34] the end of the year is so busy for me [07:34] all my free time lately has been devoted to getting my wireless network and media centers set up [07:36] we're all in the same boat. [07:36] so much to do, so little time. [07:37] whiprush, would fridge jr. do? [07:37] hehe [07:37] a college fridge! [07:37] it'd be all beer. :) [07:37] no no that's not the point [07:37] the point is to spoil the fun === whiprush just blogged a rant ... [07:37] heh [07:38] mmm.. beer [07:40] whiprush, my desktop is dumber than your desktop hah [07:40] unlikely. [07:40] jsgotangco, using gnome? [07:40] yes im very stock gnome while whiprush isn't [07:40] hey, so for fun, at our last lug meeting I took a desktop poll. [07:41] heh [07:41] 50/50 gnome/kde. [07:41] All stock wallpapers and desktops. [07:41] its like 80/20 gnome/kde at mine [07:41] i have a bsd desktop here on kde and it ok [07:41] well, my point was that they all had stock desktops. [07:41] whiprush: all stock? where's the fun in that? [07:41] I guess we are all Linux n00bs [07:42] nah... [07:42] Madpilot, on my part, i just have no time to tweak my desktop [07:42] well, 80% of us [07:42] jsgotangco: bingo! [07:42] tweaking the desktop saves time, though! [07:42] the easiest tweak isa wallpaper change [07:43] Madpilot, and for most part, the default works, and i rarely go to gconf [07:43] although most people coming from windows hate spatial because it reminds them of stock windows95 explorer behavior [07:44] yeah. [07:44] spatial's awful - all those windows popping up everywhere... [07:44] but, as I've been deploying gnome desktops at work ... [07:44] I'm starting to find ... [07:44] that people don't care about things like that [07:44] yes [07:44] as long as they know how to navigate [07:44] they care about more fundamental things [07:45] like ... "why can't I print?" [07:45] right [07:45] "I bought a dvd at the store, I put it in, and it doesn't work." [07:45] grrr. [07:45] people udnerstand the change with linux on my side [07:45] and they're interested to see the difference [07:45] sure they can make comparisons but it doesnt mean they can't be productive [07:46] whiprush: good rant! [07:46] Madpilot: I like to rant. [07:47] blog while drunk, it's the best place to be! [07:47] whiprush, the store clerk tells you "dude you're in asia, that's region 3" [07:47] heh [07:48] To be honest, when linus posted his thing, at work we were like "wow, he can print? dude shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth." [07:48] I mean, when esr did his gnome rant 2 years ago, he didn't even get that far ... [07:48] so i guess there's progress being made there. :) [07:48] ha... but I did spend a LOT of time on linuxprinting.org before buying my current HP inkjet... [07:49] well, kudos to hp, I've yet to run into a printer from them that they don't have a linux driver for. [07:49] recently anyway. [07:49] I nearly bought a Canon... bleh! [07:50] we bought at ricoh at work, bad news [07:50] rpms for rhel only. [07:50] we bought a brother...bad news too [07:50] we made it work .. but ... [07:50] they don't stop by anymore. :) [07:50] what's worse its an all-in-one machine [07:50] they didnt even *ask* me [07:51] heh [07:51] they got too excited getting a free printer after buying one [07:51] greed [07:51] the trick is to get a working relationship with the printer guy. [07:51] "look dude, we run linux, you buy what I tell you. Or you don't get invited to bar night." [07:52] then after a while the local vendor figures it out. [07:52] "vote with your dollars" and all that. [07:53] hmm dapper still doesn't get the automount ntfs parition right [07:53] if only consumers had the same buying power as companies. :-/ [07:54] en mass, they might - there are twice as many HP printers on the wiki's printer page as any other company... [07:54] jsgotangco: I've been wrestling with cups all day so i'm kind of picking on it in the blog post. [07:54] try a lexmark.. its hit or miss. [07:54] frustration++ [07:55] hmm [07:55] the older models work best, my lexmark only just began to start working === jsgotangco waits for newer dbus [07:55] with dapper [07:55] hey so jerome [07:56] run this by the doc team dudes for me ... [07:56] I'd like to start showcasing doc team stuff on the fridge [07:56] my former printer was an old Lexmark - Z32 - it was only partly working when I moved to Linux, and I never did get it to print properly... [07:57] do you guys have like a list of the best ever wiki entries or something? [07:57] just some good content that I can point people to? [07:57] like a "best of the wiki" or something? [07:57] BasicCommands is good, whiprush [07:57] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation is about the only list [07:57] Madpilot: looking [07:57] DocteamProjects is pretty good =) but im biased [07:58] heh [07:58] so guys [07:58] is it ok if i proofread the docs this weekend [07:58] i won't do any invasive changes [07:58] i'll just make comments to the docs [07:58] sure, but I dunno how the dg is going [07:59] wow, UserDocumentation rocks. [07:59] UserDocs is mostly just "the big list of everything" [07:59] i can look on it, i won't make any big changes, just comments since i didnt start the doc at all [07:59] Yeah [07:59] i don't want to disrupt the work of other people [07:59] i think it could work if there are some people who review/proofread [08:00] so hey Madpilot ... what do you think about doing something like "Wiki page of the week" or something? [08:00] where we do linkage to a certain page... [08:01] Wiki page of the week [08:01] hehe [08:01] how about member spotlight [08:01] Member of the Week: Jorge Castro [08:01] could do that too. [08:01] hah [08:01] that guy's a loser. [08:02] heh [08:02] who is he? [08:02] Page of the Week would be interesting - not sure we've got enough really great wiki pages to go for a lot of weeks, though ;) [08:02] some beer loving dweeb i heard === jsgotangco hides [08:02] yeah [08:02] he's a drunkard. [08:02] rob1: he's referring to me. :) [08:02] he only gets good work done when he's drunk! [08:03] ah [08:03] hehe now I get it! === rob1 is fast [08:03] So like, when I was doing thin clients at work, this dude wrote up the entire thing on the wiki. [08:03] Surely we can do a page biweekly or something of really gold wiki content. === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:04] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatWindowsUsersWant <-- interesting, but messy to look at [08:04] that's a pretty old page [08:04] http://members.cox.net.nyud.net:8090/jmccorm/santa.html [08:04] that's pre-UDU [08:04] hehe drunk santa [08:04] Can you guys think of a good wiki page that's good quality and relevant to breezy users? [08:05] or a certain topic I mean. [08:05] RestrictedFormats? [08:05] hmmm, how about something more general? [08:06] media formats is pretty general, isn't it? [08:06] thttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP?action=show&redirect=LAMPForHoary [08:06] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP <-- simpler URL ;) [08:06] -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP [08:06] yeah [08:06] Madpilot: yeah but that gets complicated with different countries and whatnot, I was thinking of getting something easy in first. [08:07] then move towards more advanced stuff [08:07] what about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Cedega [08:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NanoHowto [08:07] too simple? [08:08] maybe [08:08] oh oh [08:08] got one [08:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoldingAtHome [08:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo [08:09] My line of thought is "Brand new ubuntu user." [08:09] that's got to be the most-cited wiki page ever on #ubuntu... [08:09] all the "why didn't I get asked for a root pw" questions ;) [08:10] Madpilot: yeah, but the fridge is more general than that. [08:10] we're still just getting started [08:10] whiprush, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications [08:10] it's linked from the homepage. ie. "my mom doesn't go to #ubuntu" [08:10] very basic, and lots of pics [08:11] rob1: oh dude now that's what I dig. [08:11] pictures are good [08:11] yeah [08:12] some good links at the top to other more advanced multimedia stuff if people want to know more also [08:12] this page is exactly the kind of stuff I think would go well on the fridge [08:12] rob1: exactly! [08:13] rob1 / Madpilot: So what are the chances you guys can find pages like this on a regular basis. :) [08:14] not all are that good [08:14] well, we'd have to find the good ones. [08:14] whiprush: well, it might inspire more cleanup efforts :P [08:14] Madpilot, maybe [08:14] someone recently did a great job on the modem/dailup pages [08:14] Madpilot: link? [08:15] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DialupModemHowto [08:16] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo <- isn't bad as a more advanced one for users switching from other Linux distros [08:16] rob1: I was thinking the same thing [08:16] man .. that dialup page is ouch [08:17] didn't realize we sucked in that area so badly. [08:17] whiprush: you should have seen all the pages that one replaced... that was hideous [08:17] I can imagine [08:18] I think I'll play it safe and go with rootsudo as a writeup. [08:18] see how it goes. [08:18] are you guys cool with pinging me on cool wiki pages? [08:18] I heard wiki.ubuntu.com/JorgeCastro is an awesome page [08:19] i'd like to get more wiki/docteam content on the fridge ... [08:19] but i need someone to yell at me with "hey dude, RUN THIS PAGE!" [08:19] and jsgotangco is busy being a speaking star in his hemisphere ... [08:20] oh drop it will ya [08:20] heh [08:20] whiprush: ask on the mailing list, too [08:20] ROCK STAR. [08:20] Madpilot: I will do so. [08:21] whiprush, theres really not much awesome wiki entries out there..but will ping you when something comes out as well as update you on docteam news/meetings we haven't been really good on documenting ourselves lately though [08:22] well, ideally, if you guys are scrubbing along fixing articles, I'd like to highlight the stuff as it becomes documentation gold. [08:22] Like, the dude who did the sunray stuff ... is just /awesome/. [08:23] man I must be the only freenode staff member anywhere near my timezone [08:24] just about everyone else is sleeping or been idle for ages [08:24] lots of requests? [08:24] strangly no, and currently I'm the only one listed as online [08:26] gee this is a bit dodgy looking: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/200-FREE-Guaranteed-Make-Money-the-Easy-Way_W0QQitemZ4810436987QQcategoryZ1057QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem [08:27] there is even a dodgy ebay comment from someone else saying how great it is.. [08:29] ok so fellas, I'll hit up the list tomorrow on fridge-able wiki pages ... [08:29] okie dokie [08:30] jsgotangco: docteam meta-stories will always be accepted of course. [08:30] I was mostly asking about normal content. [08:31] of course I'll run your meeting summaries, calls for help, etc. etc., as usual. [08:31] ok wilco [08:38] err guys [08:38] how would you react if a long time DD is willing to join the docteam? [08:38] DD? [08:39] err [08:39] nevermind [08:39] what the heck is a DD? [08:39] Debian Developer [08:39] oh [08:41] we would welcome him? [08:41] :) [08:42] hmm but he wants to get paid heh that just deflated my spirit [08:42] pfft [08:42] yeah so like i said, nvm [08:42] =) [08:43] jsgotangco, see it like the paid-developpers in Ubuntu vs the volunteers/motus/etc [08:43] if he is paid, then you get a full-time person working on docs. [08:44] robitaille, i think we're doing good as volunteers, if he gets paid/hired, that's a corporate decision [08:44] and makes him a visible target (?) for us [08:44] heh [08:44] my question is how would decisions then be made? does he get the final say? [08:44] nah let's not go there.... [08:45] the doc team makes the final decisions. [08:45] it just happens that one member can spend 40+ hours a week helping [08:45] anyway, it's not our decision. [08:46] yep [08:46] I met a guy last week that is going to set me up with some part-time paid doc writing work next year if all goes well [08:46] but generally I would say more staff from Canonical is more a positive than a negative to help the project as a whole [08:46] it will all be in house stuff though [08:47] and windows apps [08:48] rob1, i can hook you up with some as well [08:48] jsgotangco, sounds good [08:49] rob1, i'm doing some at the moment for iosn (www.iosn.org) but they need more people in our region [08:50] hmm 404 not found [08:50] arrrrgghh [08:50] iosn.net [08:51] is it mainly open source stuff? [08:52] well yeah, its not called IOSN if they sell proprietary stuff [08:52] heh sure [08:52] s/sell/promote [08:53] it may not pay that much compared to other commecial projects but hey its UNDP looks good on your CV [08:53] =) [08:53] yeah [08:53] but still, something is better then nothing [08:53] and your cv [08:53] who do I need to contact? [08:54] well i'll ask sunil first if they need more people [08:54] ok [08:54] i'll let you know soonest [08:54] ok sounds good. thanks jsgotangco [08:59] hmm about half an hour until the pool is filled up [08:59] yay === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [n=ealden@219.90.93.184] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:56] whiprush: ha ha, fridge jr. === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Kaiser@ppp211-147.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:21] hey all === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:23] hi jsgotangco jjesse [02:23] morning Kaiser_Away [02:23] Kaiser_Away, good evening [02:23] jjesse, :) [02:24] morning jsgotangco [02:24] :) [02:24] jsgotangco: started working on release notes for dapper [02:24] jjesse, yeah i noticed [02:24] do you want me to grok on the kquickguide this weekend? [02:24] that would be awesome [02:24] i'm using ubuntu at the moment, but I can easily switch [02:25] i will be at my in-laws who are basically !internet this weekend so i will have some time to do some editing of docs [02:27] lol so internet is a cause for docteam inactivity [02:27] haha [02:27] =) [02:27] hi guys [02:27] good morning [02:27] OgMaciel, hey dude [02:27] no activity not inactivity [02:27] jsgotangco, how is it going? === jsgotangco looks at horrid bootchart result of his laptop at the moment [02:28]