[01:14] <Kyral> Anyone know what time the meeting actually is?
[02:30] <raphink> @ what time is community council today?
[02:30] <Kyral> I have NO idea
[02:30] <raphink> (or tomorrow for the ones for whom it's tomorrow)
[02:30] <raphink> it's still marked as TBD
[02:31] <seth_k|lappy> yep
[02:31] <raphink> which is not very useful ;)
[02:31] <raphink> btw, hi Kyral && seth_k|lappy :)
[02:31] <seth_k|lappy> hi raphink ^_^
[02:31] <Kyral> seth_k|lappy: down
[02:31] <raphink> how are your packages doing seth_k|lappy ?
[02:31] <Kyral> seth_k|lappy: Its mostly resolved
[02:31] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, I had five uploads yesterday, still waiting on kat b/c of sqlite issues
[02:31] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, I'm doing bugreports today
[02:31] <raphink> oh great :)
[02:31] <Kyral> seth_k|lappy: Arnieboy is just royally PO'd at Seveas
[02:31] <raphink> hug day is on thursday right?
[02:33] <seth_k|lappy> tch tch
[02:33] <seth_k|lappy> EVERY day is hug day!
[02:33] <seth_k|lappy> :P
[02:33] <raphink> "We'll have a Bug day on Thursday, December 21th. The announce will go out to"
[02:33] <raphink> (source : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Draft )
[02:34] <raphink> that means hey
[02:34] <raphink> even more hugs on thursday ;)
[02:35] <raphink> you'll need to mentor me on that seth_k|lappy ;)
[02:35] <seth_k|lappy> btw raphink, what does ichthiux have that makes it ichthiux? I would go to the page, but il est temporairement inaccessible, et je ne sais pas quand il reviendra
[02:35] <seth_k|lappy> or sommat
[02:35] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, /me is reading wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceDoc right now
[02:35] <raphink> the website was pirated some time ago :(
[02:36] <raphink> porn images were inserted on it 
[02:36] <seth_k|lappy> -_-
[02:36] <raphink> so I closed the website
[02:36] <raphink> since even changing the password didn't change 
[02:36] <raphink> so I guessed it was a security hole in the wiki
[02:36] <raphink> instead we began working on alioth
[02:36] <raphink> which is better, safer
[02:37] <raphink> what does ichthux have that makes it ichthux -> so far not much. The idea is to make is a CDD aimed to christian users and communities
[02:37] <raphink> just as agnula is aimed to musicians for example
[02:37] <raphink> ichthux is aimed to christians
[02:37] <raphink> ;)
[02:38] <raphink> doesn't prevent from installing both CDDs if you're both a musician and a christian ;)
[02:38] <seth_k|lappy> well I have a Christian band, so I guess I'm both :P
[02:38] <raphink> nice :)
[02:38] <raphink>  I havent' been working much on ichthux lately
[02:39] <raphink> but the work I do latley in Ubuntu helps me see how I could improve ichthux
[02:39] <raphink> a big part of it is packaging, for what i'm concerned with
[02:39] <raphink> packaging, tuning 
[02:40] <raphink> gathering apps useful for christians, links, settings, graphics, etc.
[02:40] <raphink> and tainting Debian systems with them using packages
[02:40] <raphink> metapackages and tasks mostly
[02:41] <raphink> ending with the release of a CD that would install Debian or Ubuntu with the ichthux task installed by default
[02:41] <raphink> just as Kubuntu installs the kubuntu-desktop task by default
[02:42] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: I consider there's no rush on this project
[06:43] <FLeiXiuS> sleep <3
[11:24] <irvin> j #ubuntu-ph
[01:03] <flint> god it is early...and the wrong day!!!!
[01:04] <Treenaks> 8)
[01:04] <raphink> TBD ...
[01:06] <flint> ah well, back to the grindstone... bye
[03:02] <jsgotangco> ok are we camping for the great CC meet wait? heh
[03:02] <OgMaciel> hehe
[03:02] <OgMaciel> guess so
[03:03] <jsgotangco> nahh its definitely not going to happen =)
[03:03] <OgMaciel> think so?
[03:03] <OgMaciel> I got a friend "running" for membership
[03:03] <OgMaciel> I promissed I'd try to be present
[03:03] <OgMaciel> ;)
[03:05] <jsgotangco> meet meet meet meet meet meet meet
[03:05] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:06] <raphink> meeting is @ TBD
[03:06] <raphink> there's still time 
[03:06] <raphink> ;)
[03:07] <OgMaciel> hehehe
[03:08] <MarioMeyer> well.. if there isn't one today, i think we'll only have one next year
[03:08] <jsgotangco> or we declare a CC junta
[03:08] <OgMaciel> they could call in an emergency meeting
[03:08] <OgMaciel> hehehe
[03:08] <OgMaciel> jsgotangco, mutiny!!! ;)
[03:09] <OgMaciel> ay ay captain
[03:14] <jsgotangco> i don't think that's a good idea...
[03:14] <jsgotangco> =)
[03:14] <OgMaciel> hehe
[03:50] <Kyral> morngin
[04:10] <raphink> hi Kyral 
[04:14] <raphink> lol
[04:16] <Kamion> by fiat
[04:16] <Kamion> sorry for the short notice
[04:16] <jsgotangco> 20
[04:16] <jsgotangco> oh well
[04:20] <Kyral> cya all in 5 hours
[05:15] <Kyral> hey elmo
[06:53] <freemanen> Is it ok to watch the meeting?
[06:54] <ogra> yup
[06:54] <ogra> all meetings are public
[06:55] <freemanen> thanks
[06:57] <raphink> freemanen: beware if you're caught watching  a meeting!
[06:57] <raphink> you'll be banned for ever ;)
[06:57] <raphink> hehe
[06:57] <raphink> ;)
[06:57] <freemanen> ???
[06:57] <raphink> j/k
[07:01] <mvo> no worries, the worst that can happen is that you get interessted and spend all your free time helping with ubuntu :)
[07:02] <ogra> yes, its slightly addictive :)
[07:10] <zul> its like crack
[08:05] <freemanen> then does the meting start?
[08:05] <Bonzodog> one hour
[08:21] <manicka> hello all
[08:21] <Kyral> hello
[08:21] <zul> hi
[08:22] <akurashy> hey manicka
[08:22] <FLeiXiuS> Hello all.
[08:22] <FLeiXiuS> UTC is so evil.
[08:23] <KingBahamut|Work> afternoon all
[08:23] <Kyral> hey
[08:23] <akurashy> hey dad *runs*
[08:23] <KingBahamut|Work> sigh
[08:23] <akurashy> :)
[08:23] <Kyral> elmo: do you have a second?
[08:24] <Bonzodog> excellent; forum rep
[08:24] <akurashy> darkmatter!
[08:24] <Amaranth> 90 minutes?
[08:25] <darkmatter> 'ello
[08:25] <Bonzodog> 40 minutes Amaranth
[08:25] <Amaranth> oh yeah, daylight savings time is over
[08:26] <KingBahamut|Work> life was better under GMT
[08:26] <KingBahamut|Work> =)
[08:27] <zenrox> not
[08:27] <zenrox> lol
[08:27] <FLeiXiuS> Absolutely..
[08:27] <FLeiXiuS> :-)
[08:28] <FLeiXiuS> Oh for a second there, I thought they were pop rocks.  I would've snatched and run!
[08:28] <zenrox> nope
[08:28] <zenrox> rockcandy
[08:29] <zenrox> its kinda like hard candy 
[08:29] <zenrox> but looks like shale type rock
[08:29] <Amaranth> rockcandy is drugs here ;)
[08:30] <zenrox> deffently not that type of candy
[08:54] <zenrox> 6 mins
[08:55] <robotgeek> hey seth_k|lappy , i got in before you :)
[08:55] <seth_k|lappy> robotgeek, yeah, I had to run to work ;)
[08:56] <robotgeek> hi #ubuntu-meeting
[08:56] <KingBahamut|Work> hello robotgeek
[08:56] <zenrox> hi
[08:56] <lucas> hi robotgeek ;)
[08:56] <zenrox> 4 min
[08:56] <zenrox> errr3
[08:56] <raphink> :)
[08:57] <robotgeek> hey a little chatter before the meeting never hurt anyone 
[08:57] <seth_k|lappy> hi raphink :)
[08:57] <zenrox> robotgeek: nope
[08:57] <jenda> hello chatterbox
[08:57] <KingBahamut|Work> not that I know of robotgeek 
[08:57] <KingBahamut|Work> =)
[08:57] <raphink> hi seth_k|lappy 
[08:57] <robotgeek> KingBahamut|Work: get off work :)
[08:57] <raphink> :)
[08:57] <mdke> gotta love the countdowns
[08:57] <hybrid> robotgeek: until someone gets mad and kills people
[08:57] <zenrox> 2 mins
[08:57] <robotgeek> lol
[08:57] <Kyral> stop counting down its annoying
[08:57] <zenrox> i cant wate
[08:57] <zenrox> lol
[08:57] <hybrid> if i yelled "Windows Pwns" would i get in trouble?
[08:57] <OgMaciel> 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
[08:58] <zenrox> rofl
[08:58] <OgMaciel> UHHH
[08:58] <OgMaciel> oops
[08:58] <OgMaciel> hehehe
[08:58] <raphink> OgMaciel: ??
[08:58] <raphink> hmm
[08:58] <robotgeek> OgMaciel: not in my time zone
[08:58] <KingBahamut|Work> Let old friend be narry forgottenn......
[08:58] <raphink> happy new CC !!
[08:58] <raphink> :)
[08:58] <KingBahamut|Work> la la la la la 
[08:58] <OgMaciel> raphink, wrong occasion hehehe
[08:58] <raphink> hehe
[08:58] <Kyral> ,,,,
[08:58] <Kamion> ok, way to annoy CC members who have to read scrollback
[08:58] <robotgeek> :)
[08:58] <Kamion> please take the party to #ubuntu-offtopic or something
[08:58] <OgMaciel> KingBahamut|Work, hehehe... festive mood, aren't we?  ;)
[08:58] <KingBahamut|Work> mdke: stop the countdown , I dont want to turn the key 
[08:59] <KingBahamut|Work> sorry, bad Wargames ref, wheres the WOPR when you need it 
[08:59] <mdke> please guys, listen to Kamion 
[08:59] <KingBahamut|Work> noted 
[08:59] <Kamion> I've pinged sabdfl, hopefully he'll be here in a minute
[08:59] <Kamion> elmo: here?
[08:59] <FLeiXiuS> mdke: Ahh you are here :-)
[08:59] <Kamion> mako has mail, but I have no idea if he'll be around
[08:59] <mdke> FLeiXiuS, ?
[09:00] <raphink> :)
[09:00] <FLeiXiuS> mdke: Nothing :-P
[09:01] <elmo> Kamion: yeah
[09:02] <jenda> so... the cauntdown is over... where's the meeting?
[09:02] <zenrox> jenda:  here
[09:02] <Amaranth> jenda: waiting for CC members to arive
[09:02] <zenrox> yep
[09:02] <Amaranth> jenda: we need 3 of them
[09:02] <Kyral> Just calm down
[09:02] <Kamion> elmo: Mark in the office?
[09:02] <jenda> :)
[09:03] <elmo> Kamion: not sure, I'm @ home
[09:03] <sabdfl> evening all
[09:03] <paulvg> hi
[09:03] <Kyral> hey Mark
[09:03] <Bonzodog> hi
[09:03] <jenda> there he is :), hello
[09:03] <zenrox> evning sabdfl 
[09:03] <KingBahamut|Work> good day 
[09:03] <manicka> hi
[09:04] <FLeiXiuS> good evening sabdfl 
[09:04] <teroedni> hello sabdfl:)
[09:04] <raphink> hi sabdfl 
[09:04] <ogra> UbuntuForumDiscussion (now resolved)  ??? 
[09:04] <FLeiXiuS> Alright lets get down to business :-)
[09:04] <hybrid> sabdfl: ya act like ya started ubuntu or something ... :p
[09:04] <ogra> really ? 
[09:04] <Kamion> ah, right, let's start then
[09:04] <Kamion> wiki licensing
[09:04] <Kamion> oh, glad to hear the forums issue is resolved, btw
[09:04] <mdke> hi all
[09:04] <Kamion> congratulations to all involved there on finding middle ground
[09:04] <kjcole> Hiya.
[09:05] <Kamion> mdke: wanna give a quick precis?
[09:05] <Amaranth> ogra: yeah, we got it figured out (mostly)
[09:05] <mdke> Kamion, sabdfl did you have a chance to read the spec?
[09:05] <ogra> cool !
[09:05] <KingBahamut|Work> aye Kamion
[09:05] <sabdfl> Amaranth: well done
[09:05] <Kyral> Yah I think the only problem is the small fued between Seveas and Arnieboy
[09:05] <Kamion> mdke: only very briefly, still reading
[09:05] <mdke> Kamion, cool, i'll summarise while you are
[09:06] <paulvg> a pity seveas aint here
[09:06] <sabdfl> ok
[09:06] <Amaranth> seveas? i thought it was me and arnieboy :)
[09:06] <Amaranth> anyway, next topic
[09:06] <sabdfl> mdke: how will we integrate items that are not in the public domain?
[09:07] <mdke> sabdfl, that's the outstanding issue on the spec :)
[09:07] <mdke> one of two options
[09:07] <hno73> sabdfl: items already in the wiki or new items?
[09:07] <mdke> *three
[09:07] <sabdfl> hno73: both
[09:08] <mdke> ok new items would be no problem
[09:08] <mdke> because they would be added on the basis of being put in the public domain
[09:08] <Kyral> I thought it was GFDL...
[09:08] <mdke> old items are the tricky bit
[09:08] <Kamion> wikipedia had a similar issue and had to go around contacting everyone, IIRC
[09:08] <sabdfl> licence interop is complex, and i can see the value of saying "ok, let's basically get out of the way and not add any new barriers"
[09:08] <hno73> A notice on the edit page would take care of new items
[09:08] <mdke> as for old items, as i say, i think there are 3 options
[09:08] <mdke> 1. go around contacting all users
[09:09] <sabdfl> hno73: +1, whatever we decide, should be clearly stated on the edit page for future reference
[09:09] <mdke> 2. remove everything
[09:09] <mdke> 3. assume that all current material has already been made public domain, and not bother asking everyone
[09:09] <KingBahamut|Work> mdke: on the UDSF we just reference back to you, because of those issues...
[09:09] <Kamion> I'm definitely not keen on 2. - lots of work for negative gain in the short term
[09:09] <mdke> yeah 2 is out for me
[09:09] <mdke> i like 3, with an implementation for resolving any potential disputes in a nice way
[09:09] <sabdfl> -2 on 2 :-)
[09:10] <Kamion> 3. sounds like it requires checking with a lawyer :(
[09:10] <mdke> Kamion, o.o
[09:10] <Amaranth> I'd think 3 would be good. Default to public domain and if anyone doesn't like that they need to speak up.
[09:10] <kjcole> Would it be worth anything to also have something similar to the CoC signing that attempts to make sure folks acknowledge that they've read and understand it?
[09:10] <sabdfl> 3 has the feel "woooo pretend this is all cooool"
[09:10] <sabdfl> Amaranth: you can't just nationalise someone else's property
[09:10] <Kyral> umm...excuse me for being unknowledgable, but is the GFDL complient with the Wiki License?
[09:10] <zenrox> i think if you post it on a web page it is public domain
[09:11] <zenrox> imho
[09:11] <elmo> sabdfl: that's arguable when they dumped their property in your yard voluntarily
[09:11] <sabdfl> Kyral: we don't have a wiki licence, that's what's caused this confusion
[09:11] <Kamion> I can see your argument that wikis are naturally collaborative do-what-you-like documents, but authors often take quite a proprietorial attitude to documentation
[09:11] <hno73> #1 is technically doable since we have people's login email addresses
[09:11] <Kyral> sabdfl: ah
[09:11] <mdke> zenrox, that's not correct, but you can argue that with a wiki, it is
[09:11] <sabdfl> elmo: arguable == lawyer's fees
[09:11] <lucas> what about (1) for a month, then (2) or (3) on a contributor by contributor basis ? (do we have full history for all pages ?)
[09:11] <sabdfl> is the website content under a specific licence?
[09:11] <elmo> there's a variation on (3), which is to assume public domain, send out a wide announce, and ask for anyone who objects to contact us, and we'll deal with that material on a case by case basis
[09:11] <Amaranth> Can you send an email to everyone that's contributed, wait 2 or so weeks, move everything to public domain unless someone speaks up?
[09:11] <KingBahamut|Work> sabdfl , then CC:PD it and make a reasonable assessment to the userbase ?
[09:12] <mdke> Kamion, i look at it like this: not many people will complain if we do 3. If they do, and we are open to resolving the problem nicely, like removing it if they are insistent, then there will be absolutely NP
[09:12] <Kamion> elmo: I prefer that option
[09:12] <elmo> sabdfl: over a wiki page?  vs. the crap we have in multiverse?  I don't think it's a remotely sane comparison
[09:12] <sabdfl> yes, we can announce and wait for comment, but then we could do that with any licence, not just PD
[09:12] <mdke> elmo, exactly my view too
[09:12] <elmo> sabdfl: (but it's not my money ;)
[09:12] <Kamion> mdke: I think we need to give due notice as elmo suggests ...
[09:12] <mdke> Kamion, yes that sounds fine too
[09:12] <sabdfl> if we impose any licence at this stage, we have to announce widely and wait for comments
[09:13] <KingBahamut|Work> Kamion, give the user time to respond, perhaps, yes?
[09:13] <Kamion> KingBahamut|Work: indeed
[09:13] <sabdfl> so, why CC:PD rather than CC-SA? don't we want a copyleft in there?
[09:13] <mdke> sabdfl, it won't get to needing lawyers fees, because no one is making any profit anyway, but of course, it's nice to do things properly
[09:13] <hno73> I think #3 becomes more acceptable if we have made an honest attempt at #1
[09:13] <Kamion> we need to work out in advance what to do when (I'm pessimistic enough not to say if) people object
[09:13] <Amaranth> KingBahamut|Work: Would you be willing to follow along with what the official wiki does for docs.gwos.org?
[09:13] <mdke> sabdfl, as for PD, it makes a lot of sense because the wiki material gets fed into other documentation
[09:13] <Kamion> sabdfl: I'd like to see it be possible for wiki content to be copied into the distribution as widely as possible, personally, and not to have to worry about licensing conflicts
[09:13] <KingBahamut|Work> sabdfl, it was my understanding that the documentation was to be as open as possible
[09:14] <kjcole> Keep in mind that some people who are contributing to the wiki (a) would like a little pat on the head -- especially if it's the only thing they're able to do, and (b) don't want their work "ruined" (a relative term).
[09:14] <Kamion> also on a more practical note I think more people are likely to object to a copyleft, and the fewer objectors the better :)
[09:14] <KingBahamut|Work> Amaranth , for the sake of openess , yes we are , thus the current stage of lisc.
[09:14] <Kamion> although that's just a gut feeling
[09:14] <mdke> kjcole, in the spec, I noted that they can make their own webpages for that
[09:14] <Kamion> kjcole: the wording of a relicensing mail would have to be very careful
[09:15] <lucas> CC-SA is not fully DFSG-compatible, AFAIK
[09:15] <KingBahamut|Work> sabdfl , Id want what comes from UDSF to wiki and vicea versa to be happy both ways....ergo open as possible
[09:15] <Kamion> but I think ultimately it *is* a wiki and people do need to expect that other people will be working on it
[09:15] <sabdfl> do we want to be able to allow people to set a different licence on wiki content they *initialise*, page by page?
[09:15] <kjcole> mdke, Sorry.  Missed that.
[09:15] <mdke> lucas, that's not a consideration here, but i definitely think PD is the way to go
[09:15] <mdke> sabdfl, really not, that would be mayhem
[09:15] <sabdfl> lucas: neither is GFDL, and we have used that for books, for example
[09:15] <KingBahamut|Work> mdke, correct sir
[09:16] <sabdfl> me, i prefer a copyleft, i think it's what makes free software go zoom
[09:16] <zenrox> i prefer copyleft
[09:16] <Kamion> the only way for different licences on different pages to be viable IMHO is if the wiki has special code to display which licence each page is under
[09:16] <zenrox> too
[09:16] <Kyral> I like copyleft
[09:16] <mdke> sabdfl, i agree, but I think the wiki is a special case which calls for PD
[09:16] <KingBahamut|Work> mdke, I aggree with you 
[09:17] <mdke> we can't attribute every single contributor to every single page that gets used
[09:17] <sabdfl> mdke: does CC-SA require attribution?
[09:17] <mdke> and keeping track of different licences would be even worse
[09:17] <lucasvo> I quite like GFDL, since Linux is gpl, why should the the documentation be opendomain(so every company can use it and make money with it)?
[09:17] <Kyral> doesn't the wiki have a changelog?
[09:17] <lucas> PD++ (and I'm usually a copyleft-fan)
[09:17] <paulvg> sabdfl: all currect cc licenses have attribution
[09:17] <hno73> Kyral: yes it does
[09:18] <sabdfl> lucasvo: you can make money with gpl and gfdl
[09:18] <paulvg> *current
[09:18] <Kamion> lucasvo: I'd rather not get into the whole GFDL debate, but many people (myself included) don't think that the GFDL is in the same spirit as the GPL; also it's GPL-incompatible which is very inconvenient
[09:18] <mdke> paulvg, that's not right
[09:18] <paulvg> there are older ones, but the latest version afaik always has attribution
[09:18] <mdke> sabdfl, cc-by-sa does, but i suppose a cc-sa doesn't
[09:18] <lucasvo> sabdfl: yes, I mean, changing it and do not give back
[09:19] <Kamion> particularly for any documentation that could end up as e.g. inline help in GPL programs
[09:19] <mdke> paulvg, the public domain one certainly doesn't
[09:19] <paulvg> ofcourse
[09:19] <paulvg> but thats not really cc
[09:19] <paulvg> it existed before
[09:19] <lucas> sabdfl: there's no CC SA, it's CC BY-SA (see http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses )
[09:19] <mdke> thanks luca
[09:20] <mdke> s
[09:20] <sabdfl> ok. afaiac mdke is the master of the wiki and i am happy to follow his recommendation. +1 on CC:PD from me, following the process elmo described. kamion? elmo?
[09:20] <mdke> lol
[09:21] <Kamion> that's fine by me, if somebody can take up the action of contacting contributors
[09:21] <mdke> can i ask
[09:21] <Bonzodog> We already have CC:PD in place
[09:21] <Bonzodog> at UDSF
[09:21] <Kamion> sorry, UDSF?
[09:21] <mdke> elmo, was your suggestion to make a general announcement, or to attempt to contact individuals?
[09:21] <sabdfl> we can easily contact contributors since we moved to launchpad auth for the wiki
[09:21] <Bonzodog> Document Storage Facility
[09:22] <KingBahamut|Work> Kamion , http://doc.gwos.org
[09:22] <lucas> what about adding a field on LP like "I agree to switch to PD for my wiki content" ?
[09:22] <sabdfl> dunno if moin helps us beyond that
[09:22] <Kamion> Bonzodog: thanks
[09:22] <elmo> mdke: if we can identify indviduals who've made edits to the wiki, I think we should do both
[09:22] <elmo> and cc:pd etc. is fine by me too
[09:22] <mdke> elmo, sabdfl, would someone do a script for that?
[09:22] <Kamion> I think due legal notice probably requires at least the latter, though IANAL obviously
[09:22] <robotgeek> elmo: just email everyone, saying that that if you have contributed, read this email?
[09:22] <hno73> robotgeek: +1
[09:22] <KingBahamut|Work> robotgeek , thats a big email list I suspect 
[09:23] <sabdfl> if someone who knows moin can pull out all the contributor's LP id's or WikiName's, we can get email addresses for them yes
[09:23] <hno73> much easier :)
[09:23] <mdke> sabdfl, maybe spiv knows how to do it...
[09:23] <hno73> We would need to write a script to check all the edits
[09:23] <sabdfl> mdke: ok, will you discuss that with him? we'll get it tasked and scheduled if its going to take time
[09:23] <hno73> and then there was the migration from Zwiki ...
[09:23] <mdke> sabdfl, sure, rock
[09:23] <sabdfl> in the meanwhile, we should announce the planned change and coming emails
[09:24] <Kyral> what does the Wiki use for a backend?
[09:24] <robotgeek> Kyral: moin moin
[09:24] <hno73> in which all the edit history was left behind
[09:24] <sabdfl> Kyral: LP for account details, text files for... the text files
[09:24] <hno73> (exists in backups though)
[09:24] <mdke> hno73, if people haven't edited the wiki since then... they're really not gonna care I'm thinking ;)
[09:24] <KingBahamut|Work> mdke, your probably right about that 
[09:24] <sabdfl> hno73: good point. we probably lost all of that revision history in zwiki
[09:25] <robotgeek> it does leave a vulnerable point (since we are doing this by the book)
[09:25] <hno73> sabdfl: it's still in a zope database somewhere, but extracting that is likely non-trivial
[09:25] <hno73> in the form we want
[09:25] <mdke> i don't think it is worth the effort
[09:25] <Kamion> the e-mail that goes out should contain an explanation of the issue and a rationale for why we think public domain is (a) a good idea and (b) not intended as an attack on their intellectual property etc.
[09:25] <Kamion> (or something like that)
[09:25] <zenrox> agreed
[09:26] <mdke> Kamion, we can prepare it on the wiki as a subpage of that spec if you like
[09:26] <sabdfl> mdke: w.r.t. pages that currently have attribution, i don't think we need to *remove* names, but we should make it clear that attribution is not required
[09:26] <hno73> Kamion: agree
[09:26] <Kamion> mdke: works for me
[09:26] <sabdfl> mdke: +1
[09:26] <sabdfl> hno73: i don't think we need to trawl that far back, we can deal with any cases that come out of the woodwork on a case-by-case basis
[09:27] <hno73> sabdfl: cool
[09:27] <sabdfl> ok, did we get +1 from quorum?
[09:27] <mdke> sabdfl, how about moving attribution to the bottom? :)
[09:27] <Kamion> I think so, yes
[09:27] <sabdfl> mdke: np
[09:27] <Kamion> mdke: that's an editing task, and therefore WHATEVER :-)
[09:27] <mdke> great, thanks very much y'all
[09:27] <sabdfl> well done
[09:27] <hno73> that just leaves writing that script :)
[09:27] <kjcole> When collecting names for e-mail, can one also use that to create a "roster of contributors" for elsewhere in the wiki?  (Or some other token acknowledgement of contributions if or when attribution is removed from wiki pages)?
[09:28] <mdke> kjcole, the revision history for each page is only a click away
[09:28] <Kamion> kjcole: if that could be maintained automatically by the wiki itself, I'd be all in favour
[09:28] <Amaranth> anyone up for some moin hacking? :)
[09:28] <kjcole> mdke, I was thinking of something a bit prettier, but it's a minor thing.
[09:29] <Kamion> mdke: I can see the value in an automatically-generated contributors list for each page distilled from that
[09:29] <mdke> kjcole, also I think people can note their contributions on their homepage, that is a nice way of doing things, IMO
[09:29] <Kamion> that sounds like a pretty tiny moin hack
[09:29] <Kamion> the revision history page already has several modes
[09:29] <mdke> Kamion, that's a developing task, WHATEVER :-)
[09:29] <Kamion> :-)
[09:30] <mdke> sounds like a nice idea
[09:30] <sabdfl> mdke: it would be nice if moin could automatically show the pages someone has touched
[09:30] <sabdfl> and the touchiness involved
[09:30] <sabdfl> but we digress
[09:30] <mdke> sabdfl, oh yeah that would be a cool macro
[09:30] <Bonzodog> it's worth noting that the doc facility uses the MediaWiki software
[09:31] <sabdfl> what other business do we have?
[09:31] <mdke> new members
[09:31] <sabdfl> when shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in 2006?
[09:31] <zenrox> irc team formation
[09:31] <Kamion> although two weeks' time is 2006 anyway :)
[09:31] <Kamion> new members
[09:31] <Kamion> LucasNussbaum
[09:32] <lucas> shall I post my summary ?
[09:32] <sabdfl> clusters & grids!
[09:32] <sabdfl> have you spoken with fabbione?
[09:32] <sabdfl> go ahead with your summary
[09:32] <lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum - https://launchpad.net/people/nussbaum
[09:32] <lucas> 24 years old, PhD student living in Grenoble (.fr). Long time Debian user. Have been one of the "no-name-yet" beta testers, and have been using Ubuntu since then. Got interested in MOTU in september when I discovered that some ruby packages weren't in good shape. Member of MOTURuby and Debian's pkg-ruby-extras team, maintainer (but not DD) of a few packages in Debian, for which I'm upstream.
[09:32] <lucas> Current work & plans inside Ubuntu: Help reduce the current MOTU bottleneck (merges missing reviews, packages waiting in REVU), general MOTU work (esp. Ruby-related packages, but also others), help improve the MOTU process to make it more efficient by writing useful tools (see my motutools work for example).
[09:33] <lucas> I haven't spoken with fabbione - he is in the same field ?
[09:33] <sabdfl> fabbione is leading the ubuntu server team
[09:33] <ogra> he is our server god
[09:33] <sabdfl> and is very interested in clusters
[09:34] <sabdfl> he did the oracle clusterfs work on ubuntu for example
[09:34] <sabdfl> and i'm sure would love to hear from you
[09:34] <fabbione> yes
[09:34] <jjesse> all hail the server god
[09:34] <sabdfl> fabbione: you rock
[09:34] <fabbione> lucas: you are welcome to contact me after the meeting
[09:34] <fabbione> sabdfl: dude.. only thanks to you :)
[09:34] <lucas> I should. I'm part of a french research project linking several clusters together to reach 5000 nodes, and some clusters already use ubuntu
[09:34] <lucas> fabbione: I will :)
[09:34] <fabbione> lucas: great!
[09:34] <sabdfl> any motu folks care to support lucas based on work done together?
[09:35] <sabdfl> lucas: your wiki page is really excellent
[09:35] <zenrox> agreed
[09:35] <sabdfl> it gave me a very clear idea what you have already done and your interests going forward
[09:35] <mdke> yeah, nice work lucas 
[09:35] <KingBahamut|Work> lucas, I think ill have a chat with you later too if I can
[09:36] <ogra> lucas is very active in MOTU and even if we sometimes disagreed about topics, i enjoyed the discussions with him... they were always fruitful and getting us forward ...
[09:36] <sabdfl> ok. for membership, +1 from me on the basis of a solid contribution over a long period
[09:36] <ogra> a total +1 from my side 
[09:36] <Kamion> lucas: I'm glad you've stuck around, I remember talking with you about ruby before breezy released when it was basically too late to do anything about it
[09:36] <ogra> and i know from \sh_away's and dholbachs too ...
[09:36] <ogra> (even if i cant speak for them officially)
[09:37] <sabdfl> it would be great to have rails rocking in dapper, is that something you're interested in lucas?
[09:37] <lucas> Kamion: I hope we will do better for dapper :)
[09:37] <sabdfl> elmo?
[09:37] <lucas> sabdfl: rails is difficult to package because of some issues related to rubygems
[09:37] <Kamion> +1 for lucas
[09:37] <lucas> we are trying to make things moving with pkg-ruby-extras (debian team)
[09:37] <sabdfl> ok
[09:38] <kjcole> I guess I now get a vote.  So from what I saw +1.  (lucas makes my contributions look pretty meager by comparison.)
[09:38] <elmo> ack for lucas
[09:38] <OgMaciel> congrats lucas
[09:38] <lucas> thanks all :)
[09:38] <sabdfl> welcome aboard
[09:39] <sabdfl> azeem: ping
[09:39] <mdke> welcome lucas, good work
[09:39] <Kamion> lucas: BTW I'm sure Ian would be interested in directed feedback on how AutomatedTesting and ruby interact
[09:39] <lucas> Kamion: I already briefly talked with him, but I'm waiting to get a better picture of this when he starts releasing some code
[09:39] <Kamion> *nod*
[09:39] <ogra> btw, is lifeless here ? 
[09:40] <zenrox> ogra:  nope
[09:40] <ogra> azeem and lifeless have been working through the nights in MOTU recently ...
[09:40] <Kyral> he's in #ubuntu-motu
[09:40] <sabdfl> right now?
[09:40] <ogra> he could give a good insight in azeems value in helping people at packaging tasks :)
[09:40] <Kyral> yah
[09:41] <seth_k|lappy> sabdfl, lifeless is away, idle 7+ hours
[09:41] <ajmitch> azeem has been a DD for quite awhile, and helped me with debian stuff in the past :)
[09:41] <Kyral> I dunno if he's away though, but his nick is there
[09:41] <ajmitch> now we just have to find him..
[09:41] <sabdfl> ok, he's away
[09:41] <sabdfl> irvin: ping
[09:41] <sabdfl> irvin:  you're up, would you give us a quick three-line summary of your activities in ubuntu and your interest going forward?
[09:42] <irvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrvinPiraman - https://launchpad.net/people/ippiraman
[09:42] <irvin> I'm 27, an Electrical Engineer by profession. Currently has a full-time job at www.transco.ph. My first encounter with GNU/Linux was with Gentus Linux (installer bundled with ABIT mboards) in the mid-to-late-90's. I also took a shot using Mandrake, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD mostly for fun and learning experience only. 
[09:42] <irvin> I came across Ubuntu since the Warty release but never really got serious with it until the release of Hoary Hedgehog when my printer worked out of the box. I ditched Windows then has been tracking updates until today.
[09:42] <irvin> I was first involved with Ubuntu when I voluntarily tested the company-owned Compaq Evo N110 laptop with Hoary until Breezy. I later learned of fellow Filipinos in the community namely jsgotangco, zakame, pusakat, etc. and joined in the LocoTeam. As of today I am a volunteer member of Edubuntu, Edubuntu Artwork, Ubuntu Team Philippines, Ubuntu Tagalog Translators, Ubuntu Marketing Team, and the UbuntuGIS.
[09:42] <sabdfl> irvin: can you think of ways we can help the broadband-impaired to be active in the ubuntu community?
[09:43] <irvin> i like the idea of debian having cds that can be downloaded and installed offline
[09:43] <ogra> we have jigdo ...
[09:43] <irvin> i want to see it in ubuntu too
[09:44] <Kamion> irvin: I guess PPP is related too; if you know the internals of the installer, or know people on dialup who do, I'd like to work with them to brush up our PPP support
[09:44] <Amaranth> there is a DVD with all of main on it, isn't there?
[09:44] <ogra> yup
[09:44] <Kamion> it's pretty ropey at the moment because most of the people working on the installer are on broadband
[09:44] <ogra> Amaranth, but there are people who want universe on DVD ...
[09:44] <irvin> orga indeed
[09:44] <Amaranth> i wish the universe fit on a DVD...
[09:45] <KingBahamut|Work> Amaranth , I didnt think it could fit on a DVD
[09:45] <sabdfl> ok, +1 for membership for irvin from me, based on translation work
[09:45] <zenrox> Amaranth:  also too some ppl on 56k dont have dvd readers eaither
[09:45] <jenda> I think they could be more involved if it were easier to downlad packages on one computer and use the media (a CD) as a repository on the broadband impaired PC
[09:45] <jjesse> not all of us in the U.S. are broadband either
[09:45] <irvin> i'm also thinking of having a web-based apt interface
[09:46] <robotgeek> irvin: +1
[09:46] <irvin> so even windows users can download packages and its dependencies, zip it, burn and install later
[09:46] <ogra> +++ for taking on the GIS stuff ... and ++ for edubuntu indeed ;)
[09:46] <robotgeek> it would help sort out the chicken and egg problem, "how do i get this without internet"
[09:47] <Kamion> irvin: http://packages.ubuntu.com/, sort of (third-party service)
[09:47] <robotgeek> Kamion: no dependencies atumatically
[09:47] <Kamion> I know it's not quite the same
[09:47] <irvin> Kamion, not very useful, since you'll have to manually download dependencies
[09:47] <Kamion> robotgeek: sure, but it does link to all the dependencies at least
[09:47] <robotgeek> Kamion: to a new user, it is quite daunting 
[09:48] <Kamion> but yeah, improving that would be good, just saying it's not *entirely* missing, just kinda poor at the moment :)
[09:48] <jenda> irvin: that would be great - in combination with an easy way to install packages from CD, that would be a solution for dialuppers and the internet-less
[09:48] <mvo> irvin: I like your idea a lot, I would love to talk to you about it later
[09:48] <irvin> robotgeek, indeed. i remember getting xchm
[09:48] <ogra> gdebi-ng could be something like that 
[09:48] <irvin> thanks mvo 
[09:48] <ogra> ;)
[09:48] <Kamion> +1 for irvin based on translation work and sustained advocacy, anyway
[09:48] <Kyral> Could we put a "Download all depends" link in Packages.ubuntu.com?
[09:48] <robotgeek> Kyral: :)
[09:48] <irvin> Kyral, that would be nice
[09:49] <irvin> Kyral, but how to deal with updates?
[09:49] <Amaranth> make gdebi detect CDs with packages on them with some hal/g-v-m magic
[09:49] <azeem> uhm, hi
[09:49] <ogra> Kyral, depends might also have dependencys
[09:49] <Amaranth> irvin: binary diffs would be nice
[09:49] <Amaranth> oh, azeem is here!
[09:49] <Kyral> irvin: you mean to the packages?
[09:49] <ogra> hey azeem 
[09:49] <jjesse> updates are a pain, some of us just borrow works high  speed internet to update
[09:49] <azeem> well, technically, I'm at a christmas party
[09:49] <Kyral> ogra: if we assume they have ubuntu-desktop installed, then we can assume what packages they have already
[09:49] <robotgeek> irvin: most of the times, it's people without internet. they just want to get an additional package
[09:50] <irvin> Kyral, if there's an update package 
[09:50] <Kyral> irvin: you mean like every two weeks or so?
[09:50] <sabdfl> elmo: irvin?
[09:50] <elmo> ack
[09:50] <ogra> Kyral, you cant always assume they have u-d installed ... but thats nothing for a CC meeting now ..
[09:50] <Kyral> ogra: agreed, we can talk in #ubuntu-motu
[09:50] <irvin> i'm subscribed to breezy-changes so i know if there's any updates i need to download
[09:51] <sabdfl> ok, welcome aboard irvin. azeem, you're up!
[09:51] <mdke> welcome irvin 
[09:51] <irvin> thanks all
[09:52] <irvin> happy holidays!
[09:52] <ogra> congrats irvin 
[09:52] <ogra> :)
[09:53] <irvin> thanks ogra 
[09:53] <ogra> azeem ?
[09:54] <zenrox> azeem:  we need 3 lines about you
[09:54] <sabdfl> ok, let's go on without azeem
[09:54] <zenrox> yep
[09:55] <sabdfl> Ananda Putra?
[09:55] <sabdfl> lucasd?
[09:56] <sabdfl> lucasd has done a LOT of translation by the looks of things
[09:56] <sabdfl> pity he's not here
[09:56] <zenrox> lol
[09:56] <sabdfl> do we have any other member candidates here?
[09:56] <OgMaciel> sabdfl, he's been busy helping out the Brazilian team
[09:56] <sabdfl> OgMaciel: yes, i can see, and he seems to be doing a lot
[09:56] <OgMaciel> it is a shame he's not here
[09:56] <sabdfl> he would definitely get my +1 on membership
[09:56] <kjcole> (Both the lucas's of today had great stuff.)
[09:57] <OgMaciel> sabdfl, I have actually lured quite a few translators these days
[09:57] <sabdfl> :-)
[09:57] <OgMaciel> ;)
[09:57] <sabdfl> see, shiny rosetta ...
[09:57] <lucas> :-)
[09:57] <sabdfl> ok folks, can we wrap up?
[09:57] <ogra> looks like :)
[09:57] <zenrox> i have new businness
[09:57] <Kamion> zenrox: go for it
[09:57] <sabdfl> zenrox: what's up?
[09:57] <zenrox> i think thare shuld be an irc team
[09:58] <Kyral> We were discussing this in #ubuntuforums just before the meeting
[09:58] <Bonzodog> If I can just interject, zenrox is dyslexic
[09:58] <zenrox> yep
[09:58] <Kyral> Bonzodog: makes no difference
[09:58] <mdke> relevancy?
[09:58] <Amaranth> IRC Team?
[09:58] <Amaranth> We kind of already do, no?
[09:58] <Bonzodog> just to excuse the spelling errors
[09:59] <Amaranth> I mean, we have the ops in #ubuntu and such.
[09:59] <mdke> Bonzodog, ah, no one spells nylthing right in irc :)
[09:59] <mdke> anything
[09:59] <zenrox> but i think it would be nice to intertwine all the #ubuntu channels with rules (per channel) and have a central team controling it
[09:59] <Kyral> Amaranth: I think he meant a way to monitor all the channels
[09:59] <hybrid> mdke: rofl
[09:59] <Amaranth> ah
[09:59] <Kyral> Like put a Logbot in official channels
[09:59] <Amaranth> so one set of ops for all channels and ubuntubot in all channel
[09:59] <zenrox> Kyral:  basckly we
[09:59] <zenrox> yes
[09:59] <ogra> isnt that the case ? 
[09:59] <Kamion> we already do, although there are channel limits that it's running up against
[10:00] <mdke> Kyral, there are logbots in all channels that want one more or less
[10:00] <Kyral> Kamion: Logbot1 Logbot2?
[10:00] <zenrox> Amaranth:  yes
[10:00] <Kamion> I think it can only join up to 20 channels or so, but talk to fabbione if it's missing one
[10:00] <Kyral> mdke: ah
[10:00] <mdke> Kamion, smurf runs one too for locochannels
[10:00] <Kamion> right
[10:00] <OgMaciel> sabdfl,  I'd like to bring something up too... BUG 5278  (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/5278)
[10:00] <Bonzodog> the #ubuntuforums channel does not have one
[10:00] <ogra> for edubuntu we have the officiall fabbione bot in #edubuntu and the LoCoBot in the localized channels ...
[10:00] <Amaranth> I've had people ask me to get rid of trolls in such in #kubuntu before, but I'm only an op in #ubuntu
[10:00] <mdke> Bonzodog, log bots are pretty easy
[10:01] <smurf> You can teach the bot to connect more than once
[10:01] <zenrox> as i dont know how to form a team id like help to set this up 
[10:01] <Kyral> Could all members have some level of access? *prepares to hide*
[10:01] <smurf> mine has three freenode connections open ATM :-/
[10:01] <Amaranth> Kyral: That'd get complicated.
[10:01] <zenrox> and help set up the rules and regs and etc...
[10:01] <sabdfl> elmo: what's the right process to update an @ubuntu.com email address for OgMaciel's bug?
[10:01] <Kamion> Kyral: I'm inclined to think that integrating Launchpad membership with IRC is likely to be just waaaaaaaay too much pain
[10:01] <Amaranth> Kyral: The only feasible solution would be to have all the members link to a nick.
[10:02] <Amaranth> Kyral: But freenode has a limit on how many linked nicks you can have.
[10:02] <Kyral> actually I need ping elmo about my @ubuntu.com as well
[10:02] <Kamion> and ties us very much to Freenode in case we ever want to move off
[10:02] <elmo> sabdfl: the auto-update stuff is down atm, due to some refactoring - I'm working on it with SteveA
[10:02] <Kyral> Kamion: Don't get zenrox started about that one
[10:02] <elmo> if updates are important, they can bug me and I'll do it by hand
[10:02] <zenrox> Kamion:  that is also part of my propsal of forming the irc team
[10:02] <Kyral> Kamion: I had to talk him outta it earlier
[10:02] <Kamion> Kyral: I'm aware it's come up before
[10:02] <zenrox> maby at some point ubuntu can have its own servers
[10:03] <zenrox> but not at this point tho
[10:03] <Amaranth> bad idea
[10:03] <Amaranth> everyone is on freenode :P
[10:03] <Amaranth> except those silly GNOME and Mozilla guys
[10:03] <Kyral> yah thats what I said
[10:03] <Kamion> I kind of like being able to use IRC even when the datacentre's being deluged with CD image downloads :P
[10:03] <zenrox> just need to form the irc team and have the team discuss this and other issues that relate to freenode and ubuntu
[10:03] <Kyral> I mean we could contribute a server to Freenode
[10:03] <OgMaciel> elmo, would it be possible for you to manually change it for me?  Please?
[10:03] <mdke> OgMaciel, a LP admin can do it I think
[10:04] <elmo> mdke: no, they can't
[10:04] <zenrox> Kyral:  yes but team needs to be formed first
[10:04] <mdke> elmo, ah my bad
[10:04] <sabdfl> mdke: no, the script that maps from lp to the alias file is in elmo's hands, and is down right now
[10:04] <Kamion> ok, I'm kind of unclear as to what this team would be doing
[10:04] <robotgeek> same here
[10:04] <OgMaciel> I've been doing a lot of advocating and would like to be able to give them my Ubuntu email  ;(
[10:04] <Amaranth> donating a server doesn't get you special privileges 
[10:04] <sabdfl> when that script is sorted, then updating LP should update your email addy
[10:04] <mdke> cool
[10:04] <zenrox> Kamion:  manging the irc channels, disputes ,etc..
[10:05] <Kamion> we have the code of conduct for basic rules and regulations already
[10:05] <Kyral> sabdfl: ah okay I'll wait instead of bugging elmo :D
[10:05] <zenrox> Kamion:  but that dont apply to every cahnnel on irc
[10:05] <Kamion> zenrox: applies to #ubuntu*
[10:05] <zenrox> that is ubuntu related
[10:05] <sabdfl> OgMaciel, Kyral: no, please bug elmo to fix it for you today
[10:05] <sabdfl> rather than waiting
[10:05] <sabdfl> hey ian_brasil
[10:05] <OgMaciel> sabdfl, sounds good to me  ;)
[10:05] <keyes_> hello
[10:05] <ian_brasil> sabdfl:ola
[10:05] <sabdfl> has the drought cleared?
[10:05] <Kamion> and given the number of channels, doesn't it scale better to have channels managing themselves where possible, rather than trying to have one team do it all?
[10:05] <zenrox> Kamion: to a point but what about like spam some ubuntu channels alow it some dont
[10:06] <zenrox> also too maby a good wiki page to list ruls for eatche channel
[10:06] <robotgeek> zenrox: #ubuntuforums is the only channgel which don't comply, AFAIK
[10:06] <ian_brasil> it has been raining here for a week solid and the rivers are rising
[10:06] <zenrox> and a central command structure for channels
[10:06] <Kamion> I think we're in danger of overengineering here ...
[10:06] <OgMaciel> elmo, could you? ;)
[10:06] <zenrox> robotgeek:  the 1 execption
[10:06] <Kamion> IRC channels aren't a military structure :)
[10:07] <zenrox> Kamion:  i know
[10:07] <mdke> Kamion, +1
[10:07] <Kyral> elmo: if you have time, could you set my redirect? Thanks
[10:07] <keyes_> the DADVSI law is voted now in France, look rtsp://real-live.event.oleane.net/broadcast/live/encoder/assemblee/assnat.rm
[10:07] <Kamion> and trying to turn them into one is generally a doomed enterprise
[10:07] <Kyral> mdke: I think its more about making sure there is an active op in everychannel
[10:07] <robotgeek> the COC applies in #ubuntu, and pretty much everyone sticks to it
[10:07] <keyes_> if this is voted, this is the end of PLF, VLC, and lot of other open source softwares
[10:07] <zenrox> but  you know what i mean if thare is a ban that some one wants to do in a channel thay can go to the irc team and ban and valadea it
[10:07] <zenrox> remove bans etc...
[10:07] <Kamion> I've got no objection to clearer rules, and strong channel ops
[10:08] <Kamion> zenrox: per Freenode policy, that's the job of the channel opts
[10:08] <Kamion> er, ops
[10:08] <mdke> Kyral, i don't think we should decide that for all ubuntu channels
[10:08] <zenrox> hence the team formation
[10:08] <Kyral> zenrox: are you referring to my "situation" a couple weeks ago?
[10:08] <mdke> Kyral, think about all the loco channels
[10:08] <Mirno> Hi
[10:08] <zenrox> Kyral:  yes
[10:08] <lucas> keyes_: asking english speaking people to watch a french minister talking in french might not be a good idea :)
[10:08] <seth_k|lappy> I think more than an IRCTeam, we need a central place to see who has ops on what channels, maybe apply for op privileges on a channel, etc.
[10:08] <elmo> Kyral: have you even set email up in LP?
[10:08] <seth_k|lappy> To see who is available to get rid of a problem user
[10:08] <Kyral> elmo: you mean addys?
[10:08] <Kamion> if this is a proposal coming from a wide cross-section of existing #ubuntu* channel ops to try to centralise how they do things, that's one thing
[10:09] <zenrox> Kyral:  had bine baned in #Ubuntu 2 weeks ago and i could not get ahold of the person who di the ban
[10:09] <keyes_> lucas:  sorry ;)
[10:09] <Kamion> seth_k|lappy: chanserv tells you who has what access levels, doesn't it?
[10:09] <Mirno> lucas, it's quite a bad timeing for a CC :) for french people
[10:09] <zenrox> and if thare is an irc team we can ealy contect the team to get the ban lifted or refined
[10:09] <Kamion> 21:09 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- An access level of [1]  is required for [ACCESS LIST]  on #ubuntu
[10:09] <seth_k|lappy> Kamion, you need access level 1 to use /msg chanserv access #channel list IIRC
[10:09] <Kamion> hmm, maybe not
[10:09] <seth_k|lappy> yeah, I was right
[10:09] <Kamion> zenrox: similarly you can contact the ops
[10:10] <ogra> Mirno, hmm, for germans its fine ... whats wrong with france ? 
[10:10] <Kamion> I think that access restriction should be lifted so that people can see who the ops are
[10:10] <zenrox> Kamion:  i did the person who wasnt around
[10:10] <lucas> Mirno: quite good, it is 22:10 here
[10:10] <zenrox> culd not remove the ban
[10:10] <mdke> Kamion, +1
[10:10] <seth_k|lappy> Kamion, I don't know if you can. I think that's a freenode thing
[10:10] <ogra> Mirno, i prefer 9pm to 5am ;)
[10:10] <Kamion> zenrox: an IRC team has no power without the cooperation of the channel operators
[10:10] <robotgeek> Kamion: generally you can see who the ops are by doing !ops
[10:10] <mdke> seth_k|lappy, sure you can
[10:10] <Kamion> zenrox: therefore this proposal has to come from the channel operators
[10:10] <seth_k|lappy> mdke, alright
[10:10] <Kamion> robotgeek: in channels with bots that recognise !commands, sure
[10:10] <zenrox> Kamion:  at least 1 person from can ops will be on the team
[10:10] <zenrox> cachanel
[10:10] <Kamion> zenrox: have you discussed this with them?
[10:11] <zenrox> yes
[10:11] <robotgeek> Kamion: yup, ubotu is good to have around
[10:11] <Kamion> zenrox: are any of the relevant people here?
[10:11] <zenrox> no as usual
[10:11] <Mirno> ogra: it's RIGHT NOW, the debat/vote for DAVIDSI law ... Law that will forbid free software and reverse engeneering etc, in France.
[10:11] <mdke> Mirno, #ubuntu-offtopic pls
[10:11] <ogra> Mirno, ask them to postpone it until we're done ...
[10:11] <Kamion> perhaps you can put together a wiki page with a list of the people involved here
[10:11] <Amaranth> relevant people?
[10:11] <Kamion> and the channels they're responsible for
[10:11] <Amaranth> i'm in op in #ubuntu, does that count?
[10:12] <zenrox> Amaranth:  yes
[10:12] <Amaranth> err, an op
[10:12] <zenrox> you count
[10:12] <Amaranth> i think a team would be useless, actually
[10:12] <Kamion> that way we can have some kind of an idea of who wants to form a team and cooperate in shared management of channels
[10:12] <zenrox> Amaranth:  but want about in the long run
[10:12] <Amaranth> there has only been one time i wished i had op in another channel
[10:12] <Kyral> Amaranth: #ubuntuforums?
[10:12] <Kamion> there are too many channels and operators for a proposal from just one or two people to make sense on its own, IMHO
[10:12] <Amaranth> Kyral: that's not an official channel, really
[10:13] <lucasvo> I think the bigger problem is that too many peopla are in the channels
[10:13] <zenrox> Kamion:  agreed
[10:13] <sabdfl> ok, can we ask zenrox & co to work on that? do you need any specific decision or support from the CC?
[10:13] <zenrox> sabdfl:  i was told that i have to get approvil to get this set up and for the team but i will come back with a list off ppl and rally more support
[10:14] <zenrox> off=of
[10:14] <Amaranth> keyes_: dang, no subtitles :P
[10:14] <mdke> zenrox, if you work on a spec, it will be much clearer
[10:14] <zenrox> mdke:  yep i need help
[10:14] <mdke> it's difficult to judge just like this
[10:14] <keyes_> sorry
[10:14] <sabdfl> i like the idea of an IRC team, so +1 from me for that, but you'll need to come back with a formal proposal, speling not important
[10:14] <zenrox> lots of it
[10:14] <Kyral> lol
[10:14] <zenrox> hehehehe
[10:14] <sabdfl> ok
[10:14] <Kamion> zenrox: ok, generally we need to have a clear statement of goals and list of initial people interested before approving it, so that we know it's starting off on a good footing
[10:14] <zenrox> ok
[10:15] <Kamion> zenrox: but you can certainly start informal collaboration without having to get CC approval for that
[10:15] <sabdfl> zenrox: thanks for taking the lead on this
[10:15] <keyes_> anarchy will beat ^^
[10:15] <sabdfl> ok folks, any other business?
[10:15] <Kamion> zenrox: we don't ban people from talking to each other and just doing useful stuff ;-)
[10:15] <zenrox> Kamion:  i know that
[10:15] <Kyral> zenrox: or disagreeing with Forum Admins ;P
[10:15] <Bonzodog> Are people aware of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility and what it does?
[10:15] <Mirno> i'm sorry did I miss the "forum' topic ?
[10:16] <mdke> Bonzodog, yes
[10:16] <mdke> Mirno, yes
[10:16] <Kamion> Mirno: apparently resolved, so not being discussed here
[10:16] <Mirno> Kamion: ok
[10:16] <jenda> Bonzodog: Maybe you should inform - I was surprised to see how many people weren't
[10:16] <Bonzodog> I would just like to give a little briefing on it. I know you are aware mdke
[10:16] <Kamion> Bonzodog: today was the first I'd heard of it
[10:16] <Mirno> never heard of it
[10:17] <Bonzodog> the website: http://doc.gwos.org
[10:17] <sabdfl> Bonzodog: ?
[10:17] <Bonzodog> It is a project run by KingBahamut
[10:17] <Kamion> FWIW the web site isn't responding to me
[10:17] <ogra> same here
[10:17] <seth_k|lappy> really slow here
[10:17] <Bonzodog> my launchpad page:
[10:17] <kjcole> Kamion, ditto
[10:18] <Mirno> Bonzodog: ah this ..
[10:18] <Bonzodog> http://www.launchpad] 
[10:18] <seth_k|lappy> the udsf contributes to dilution... why can't the wiki be used?
[10:18] <jjesse> +1 seth_k|lappy 
[10:18] <Bonzodog> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bonzodog
[10:18] <Bonzodog> is me
[10:18] <mdke> seth_k|lappy, please don't start this, it's late already
[10:18] <hybrid> duh
[10:18] <Kyral> seth_k|lappy: KB has had some...disagreements with the Wiki staff it seems. Lets put it that way
[10:19] <zenrox> so are we backly done here
[10:19] <sabdfl> Bonzodog: ok, the site seems to be down now
[10:19] <Bonzodog> we are part of team bahamut and we are working alongside the wiki and mdke to put together a second wiki that is more how-to's and basic documentation onusing ubuntu
[10:19] <hno73> I can see why the forum community wants it's own wiki, but it would be cool if they had the same markup so we could move content between the wikis more easily
[10:19] <Bonzodog> sabdfl: the site is under attack
[10:19] <sabdfl> can i ask you to put a document together that describes what you are doing and put it on the agenda for the next CC meeting?
[10:20] <seth_k|lappy> my thought is just that the "official" Ubuntu forums should be encouraging use of the *official* Ubuntu wiki, not some third-party project. My objection doesn't really relate to the doc itself.
[10:20] <hno73> esp, now if they both become PD
[10:20] <Bonzodog> and has been a few times
[10:20] <thesaltydog> am I late? sorry..
[10:20] <sabdfl> seth_k|lappy: yes, but there is room for other wiki's, for example the loco teams often create them
[10:20] <Amaranth> thesaltydog: the meeting is pretty much over
[10:20] <thesaltydog> ah..ok
[10:21] <thesaltydog> I thought it was at 20:00 utc
[10:21] <irvin> the docteam is pretty handicapped at the moment, we would welcome your contributions Bonzodog 
[10:21] <Bonzodog> why ours is being attacked is a mystery
[10:21] <sabdfl> Bonzodog: why would the site be attacked? if there is a controversy in the forums or irc, please ask both sides to state their case in the wiki and bring it to the next CC meeting
[10:21] <sabdfl> thesaltydog: it was ;-)
[10:21] <Riddell> Amaranth: I'm happy to make any responsible person an op in #kubuntu but I don't know how much you're in there
[10:21] <hno73> In fact I've moved two wikis from media to moin due to spam infestation
[10:21] <Bonzodog> Kingbahmut has more on it
[10:21] <Kyral> sabdfl: there is a small....issue in that
[10:21] <thesaltydog> hi sabdfl 
[10:21] <mdke> hno73, :) go moin!
[10:21] <Amaranth> Riddell: Basically never. But it seems like you're more likely to find an op in #ubuntu than #kubuntu
[10:22] <Amaranth> Riddell: That was a while ago though.
[10:22] <seth_k|lappy> Amaranth, I'm in there quite a few hours a day, 8-10 usually
[10:22] <robotgeek> Riddell: i'm there usually, now that i am using kubuntu :)
[10:22] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: that's why you're on op :)
[10:23] <seth_k|lappy> sabdfl, of course there is room; I'm not saying that the udsf should be asked to stop or something. sabdfl, however, the official Ubuntu Forums encourage the use of this site instead of the official wiki. It was simply my opinion that an Ubuntu resource that was deemed "official" should encourage the use of official Ubuntu-sanctioned support documents.
[10:23] <robotgeek> seth_k|lappy: +1
[10:23] <Amaranth> seth_k|lappy: There seemed to be an issue with the docs getting moved to the official wiki.
[10:23] <Amaranth> seth_k|lappy: Sounded like it was basically formatting issues.
[10:23] <sabdfl> seth_k|lappy: agreed. we need to assess if the UDSF serves a real puspose, then that could become official for that purpose
[10:23] <Bonzodog> I was hoping that the two wikis would be able to work together
[10:24] <sabdfl> i know the docteam have wanted a more stable platform than a wiki
[10:24] <mdke> Bonzodog, the markup is not very compatible
[10:24] <sabdfl> what i don't like is the idea of two docteams :-)
[10:24] <Bonzodog> as we are a resource of how-to's and basic documentation
[10:24] <sabdfl> anyhow, this is a matter that requires some detailed background
[10:24] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, yeah, that was just in response to Amaranth saying that ops in #kubuntu were hard to find
[10:24] <lucasvo> if you say the the 2nd wiki is for howto & doc, what is the official wiki for?
[10:24] <Bonzodog> we use MediaWiki as our software
[10:24] <mdke> lucasvo, they are both for that
[10:24] <sabdfl> Bonzodog: please write up the rationale and vision of the UDSF, and get docteam and wiki team commentary alongside it
[10:24] <Bonzodog> which powers wikipedia
[10:24] <Bonzodog> I will do
[10:25] <sabdfl> we can discuss it when we meet again
[10:25] <Bonzodog> and we bring it to the next meeting
[10:25] <sabdfl> cool
[10:25] <irvin> that would be nice
[10:25] <sabdfl> ok. kamion, elmo, friends, thank you!
[10:25] <Kyral> indeed
[10:25] <Mirno> sabdfl: hi, how's life ?
[10:25] <Bonzodog> thank you
[10:25] <mdke> night all, thanks
[10:25] <sabdfl> Mirno: rocking along :-) you?
[10:25] <robotgeek> sabdfl: later
[10:25] <zenrox> thank u
[10:25] <Kamion> great, thanks all
[10:25] <sabdfl> night all
[10:25] <zenrox> night sabdfl 
[10:25] <Kyral> night sabdfl
[10:25] <irvin> night sabdfl mdke 
[10:25] <jjesse> night sabdfl 
[10:25] <lucasvo> night 
[10:25] <paulvg> goodnight
[10:25] <Mirno> sabdfl: greate :=)
[10:26] <irvin> it's early morning here
[10:26] <kjcole> Sleep tight.  Don't let the Ubuntu bugs bite.
[10:26] <OgMaciel> hehe
[10:26] <Kyral> I need to speak to Seveas
[10:26] <zenrox> me too
[10:26] <Kyral> there is one ghost from the Forums Issue not resolved
[10:26] <ogra> irvin, enjoy the sunrise ;)
[10:26] <paulvg> Kyral: his phone number can be found at his website http://www.kaarsemaker.net/
[10:26] <irvin> ogra, it's been raining for days
[10:27] <robotgeek> Kyral: it might be a good idea to detail the issue on the CC Agenda page
[10:27] <irvin> i have yet to see a beautiful sunrise
[10:27] <ogra> irvin, the sun doesnt come up if it rains in asia ? 
[10:27] <ogra> ah 
[10:27] <ogra> :)
[10:27] <Kyral> robotgeek: its more of an issue between Seveas and Arnieboy
[10:28] <robotgeek> Kyral: *sigh*
[10:28] <robotgeek> i tht all was settled. 
[10:28] <robotgeek> anyways, that's a personal issue?
[10:28] <Kyral> yah....Arnieboy is mad about Seveas talking about him behind his back
[10:28] <Kyral> he wants an apology
[10:29] <seth_k|lappy> that's not for the CC to handle, imo
[10:29] <Kyral> yah
[10:29] <Kamion> that's *so* much a personal issue
[10:29] <Kyral> but I still need to talk to Seveas :P
[10:29] <paulvg> Kyral: i havent heard anything downright insulting from him on arnieboy
[10:29] <paulvg> but automatix, yes
[10:29] <Kyral> I never said it was a CC Issue ;P
[10:30] <paulvg> goodnight all
[10:30] <sivang> hmm, CC meeting.. I missed it..
[10:30] <Kyral> goodnight
[10:31] <Kyral> was that Linus?
[10:31] <robotgeek> seth_k|lappy: hmm, who cares about arnieboy anyways
[10:31] <Kamion> Kyral: no
[10:31] <Kyral> Kamion: okay lol
[10:31] <Kamion> unless he sets his realname to "Osvaldo La Rosa"
[10:31] <Kyral> lol
[10:31] <seth_k|lappy> robotgeek, that'd be my thought
[10:33] <robotgeek> anyways, later all
[10:33] <keyes> whats about arnieboy?
[10:33] <keyes> arnieboy is a thief
[10:33] <Kyral> keyes: just a fued between him and Seveas
[10:33] <keyes> my little script is GPL and is "Automatix" rape the GPL
[10:34] <seth_k|lappy> keyes++
[10:34] <ajmitch> does this need to be argued out here, again?
[10:35] <keyes> of course
[10:36] <Mirno> keyes: trlala prout prout
[10:36] <keyes> ubuntuforums.org censorships and arnieboy is a thief
[10:36] <Mirno> keyes: what do you think I close PLF repositories ?
[10:37] <keyes> Mirno:  what about DADVSI?
[10:37] <keyes> i've closed mplayer (that irritates me)
[10:37] <Mirno> keyes: there's a guy which is willing to take care of this, and sirestart (MOTU) is saying we are too permissiv to be recommended officially LOL
[10:38] <keyes> fuck
[10:38] <Mirno> keyes: well it's no voted yet .; we'll see we'll see ...
[10:38] <Mirno> keyes: I'm wondering what to do if it'll be explicitly forbidden to provide libdvdcss2 and w32codecs ?
[10:39] <Mirno> keyes: PLF Mandriva are resisting.
[10:39] <keyes> hum
[10:39] <Mirno> keyes: I think w32codecs is OK
[10:39] <keyes> we can folow the mandriva politic, move to luxembourg or switzerland
[10:39] <keyes> or close him
[10:39] <Mirno> keyes: they gonna leave "interoperability" open
[10:39] <keyes> hum
[10:39] <Mirno> keyes: but libdvdcss2 is explicitly forbidden as DRM cracking
[10:40] <keyes> libdvdcss is alsso an "interiperability" software
[10:40] <keyes> hum
[10:40] <Mirno> keyes: it's mostly a DRM cracking
[10:41] <Mirno> Oh please people VOTE :  who likes PLF Ubuntu say "I like PLF" and people who don't "I don't like PLF"
[10:41] <Kamion> please take this somewhere else
[10:42] <Kamion> the logs of this channel are very useful, and the easier it is to look for stuff in them the better
[10:43] <Mirno> Kamion: ok so you are asking me to go make people vote somewhere else where you all are not this is gonna be difficult ...
[10:43] <Mirno> huhu
[10:43] <Mirno> ok as you wish
[10:43] <Mirno> I'll close PLF if you bother so much.
[10:43] <keyes> Mirno:  we must declare Bthune independent, legalize matijuana and purpose PLF softwares
[10:43] <Mirno> keyes: I don't support your sayings
[10:43] <keyes> mari*
[10:44] <keyes> :p
[10:44] <keyes> I know
[10:44] <akurashy> did i missed something good? i was taking a shower :(
[10:45] <akurashy> anyone knows what was resolved today?
[10:45] <jenda> akurashy: not much IMO
[10:45] <jenda> *In my observation
[10:46] <jenda> A can give you a log, if you wish, but it'll become public anyway :)
[10:46] <jenda> *I
[10:47] <akurashy> well i logged, but just wanted a resume
[10:47] <akurashy> :)
[10:48] <keyes> resume: Frenches politicals are bastards, PLF is good and anarchy will beat
[10:48] <jenda> I was very busy, so I didn't notice any breakthroughs
[10:48] <jenda> An IRC team was in question
[10:48] <jenda> and so were the broadband-impaured
[10:48] <akurashy> yea i readed something about irc team
[10:49] <akurashy> but why would they need a irc team O_o
[10:49] <Kamion> jenda: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
[10:49] <jenda> Kamion: no need - got me own, aku was asking
[10:50] <akurashy> i got my logs too, just was asking for what was resolved
[10:50] <akurashy> :)
[10:51] <jenda> LOL: * torvalds has quit (Client Quit)