=== thierry [n=thierry@modemcable084.72-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:07] welcome thierry [12:07] Pygi: thanks [12:10] Pygi, you're the welcome bot? [12:10] :) [12:10] mdke: yes, I am the welcome bot ;) [12:10] oh, he does that on every channel? :)) [12:10] mdke: soon I'll evolve to the "How may we be of service?" bot ;) [12:11] not to be a killjoy, but I think I'd prefer useful scrollback in #ubuntu-devel to a welcome-bot. :) [12:13] Kamion: why? what? when? what? heh! ;) [12:17] Kamion: don't request that, he'll comply with pasting XYZ previous lines along *with* the welcome message ;-) === Pygi shoots down ptlo [12:19] I am stoping to say welcome to anyone ;) now you are on your own ;) [12:20] i feel so alone...:) === fede2_ [n=fede2@nat1.inalambrica.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cron0 [n=cron0@24.202.197.69] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:22] Hi [12:22] welcome cron0! [12:22] Thanks! :) [12:23] . o o (oh no...i've succumbed to the pyginess syndrome! :) === Pygi wonders how ptlo didn't got down when I shot him..... === ptlo reminds himself to be polite and politely shuts up === Pygi shots once again... [12:24] (guys, useful scrollback ...) === Pygi thinks this is a lot of offtopic === aurynn_u [n=ubuntu@139.48.6.10] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:26] Just wanting to say good job on ubuntu, it's actually starting to get reasonable [12:27] quite the complement [12:27] I came here wondering if I were the only one having dependency issues with libdbus at this moment? [12:28] cron0: there's been a new dbus, rebuilding is happening now [12:28] rebuilding of dependencies that is [12:28] cron0 : No, massive transition, this would be a better question for #ubuntu-users [12:28] there's a #ubuntu-users? [12:28] Riddell, from me, more than you know. [12:29] given I'm comparing directly to OSX [12:30] Cool, I was just wondering :) [12:31] Are there any dev sites/blogs where huge transitions like this are posted? === rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:34] cron0: usually ubuntu-devel-announce would be it, I can't remember seeing this transition on it though [12:34] ping BenC [12:36] ok! [12:38] sistopy: pong [12:38] infinity: much better comment, I knew it was you that time without looking at the name :) [12:39] BenC: /me reported #20910 [12:39] sistopy: hey [12:39] BenC: I doubt it's an hardware issue [12:39] sistopy: come over to #ubuntu-kernel if you don't mind [12:39] BenC: sure === Kamion goes on holiday. woohoo [12:40] Kamion: \o/ [12:40] Kamion, have fun and relax :) [12:40] see you at the distro team meeting on Thursday, and then in 2006; mail me if there are urgent decisions to make === aigarius [n=aigarius@85.254.221.202] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:41] echo "lets use reiser4 4 dapper!!!!! yay or nay pls" | mail cjwatson@ubuntu.com [12:41] lool [12:42] that wont work, we dont install an MTA !!!! [12:42] LOL [12:42] Ubuntu is under attack! [12:43] actually it was a very helpful thread hat pointed out a missing dependency in popcon :) === Gman- [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel === doko [n=doko@dslb-084-059-067-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman- [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:01] Riddell : Err, I meant #ubuntu, obviously. I get list/channel mappings confused when I've been awake all night. [01:03] mdke: there's a parser error on the ubuntu-docs [01:03] two or three actually === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman- [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === storm [n=joel@200.96.61.227] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:17] what's the package containing the data for the panel menus? (Applications/Places/System) ? i'm trying to translate it, but i don't know where to look (it isn't in the gnome panel). [01:17] (if i'm offtopic, sorry:) === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:18] ptlo: how about right clicking the panel and saying "Translate this app"? [01:18] it should take you to the right place in rosetta [01:19] or, it would if firefox worked as expected [01:19] tseng: it's not part of the gnome panel, we've translated that [01:19] tseng: i mean the items *under* the Applications menu (Accessories, Games, ... <- the section names) [01:19] im guessing you mean either gnome-panel-data or gnome-menus [01:19] oh! thanks [01:20] nps [01:20] we don't have those enabled in rosetta so i missed them [01:20] (we == hr lang team) === trulux [n=lorenzo@unaffiliated/trulux] has joined #ubuntu-devel === sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman- [n=gman@nwkea-socks-1.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seth_k|lappy [n=seth@ubuntu/member/sethkinast] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:35] infinity: http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-docs.diff http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-docs.diff [01:54] whoa [01:55] everything depending on d-bus [01:55] scary [01:55] jdub: there is no cabal [01:56] hey its a development release, you know :P === ogra wonders if dbus 1.0 will be released in time, so we have to do it again :) [01:59] Riddell, is that a diff on my package? looks good [01:59] its not that bad per maintainer [01:59] i should bump the soversion on libx11 for shits and giggles [01:59] mdke: could you test it please [01:59] Riddell, tomorrow? [01:59] Riddell, looks good to me too ... [01:59] Riddell, what are the faqguide.fr and faqguide.it changes? [02:00] i'll adopt it for edubuntu if i dont find heavy objections in my baclog tomorrow [02:00] oh nice [02:00] Riddell, you rock, even correcting those [02:01] scottish politeness :) [02:02] Riddell : Where's the original that the ubuntu diff is based on? [02:02] infinity, http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/breezy-updates [02:03] mdke : danke. [02:03] bitte [02:04] mdke: to make it validate [02:04] Riddell, yeah, i saw the change eventually, you are a perfectionist :) [02:04] good stuff === freeflying [n=rockie@61.190.65.34] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:09] Riddell, what the hell, i'll test it now. where is the pkg? [02:09] or do i have to build it? === Gman- is now known as GmanAFK [02:11] mdke: building it would be best [02:11] def. tomorrow then, my internet is a bit slow and I've mislaid my local copy [02:14] and I'll have to learn how to use patch too [02:16] Riddell, shouldnt kubuntu have a higher priority ? [02:17] you set it to 40 too ... [02:18] ogra: why? [02:18] because you make sure it gets preferred as alternative in automatic mode [02:19] To be fair, no one really knows what screen you'd prefer to see if you have ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, and edubuntu-desktop installed at the same time. [02:19] and i think ubuntu-docs needs an --auto in its postinstall, but infinity might correct me here [02:19] And, no, maintainer scripts should NEVER call --auto. Ever. [02:19] i know that i want to see edubuntu in any case [02:20] That overrides the local admin's decision. [02:20] ok [02:20] Anyhow, I'll peruse these diffs later today, and either upload them as-is, or fix them and upload them, depending on what's required. [02:20] Riddell : Thanks for doing the grunt work. === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:21] got a new one for you.. gutenprint imho should be updated (the 5.0.0rc5 is already on debian unstable) this should add support for many more printers, and it doesn't feature on PrintingRoadmap spec th [02:22] Riddell, i built it and installed it on my ubuntu breezy, but I have no index.html in the relevant file, only firefox-index.html [02:22] mdke: /etc/alternatives/firefox-index ? [02:23] Riddell, no such file [02:23] hmm, not good [02:23] assuming i built it right [02:23] think so [02:24] mdke : Do you have either kubuntu-docs or edubuntu-docs installed as well? [02:24] infinity, no [02:25] dpkg -S /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html [02:25] it's not there... [02:25] dpkg can't see it [02:25] Right, and it shouldn't be. [02:25] well how can my browser display it? [02:25] update-alternatives --display firefox-homepage [02:25] No alternatives for firefox-homepage. [02:26] the file shouldn't be there? [02:26] it should be a link to /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage [02:27] Well, the file should be a symlink owned by the alternatives system. [02:27] So, Riddell broke something, perhaps. :) [02:27] there is nothing in either of those :) [02:27] I'll look at it later on today, unless you guys feel like fixing it. [02:27] this will work for epiphany too right? [02:27] i dont see an error in the code ... [02:28] silly question, but all this talk of ff makes me nervous [02:28] this seems like a lot of work to go to when we're going to switch to start.ubuntu.com anyway... [02:28] + update-alternatives \ [02:28] + --install /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html \ [02:28] + firefox-homepage /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/firefox-index.html 40 [02:28] jdub, it is for breezy [02:28] looks totally ok [02:28] ogra, maybe I built the package wrong [02:29] breezy? okay - i don't want to know. [02:29] jdub, so is somebody going to approve and implement start.ubuntu.com? [02:29] does /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/firefox-index.html exist ? [02:29] ogra, yes [02:29] mdke: yeah [02:29] hmm, and /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage doesnt point to it ? [02:29] jdub, ah, who? [02:29] ogra, there isn't one of those [02:29] mdke: moi [02:29] very strange [02:30] jdub, aha === mdke doesn't like that spec :) [02:31] neither do i [02:31] hmm, btw, how do we handle translations of this page with the alternatives system ? [02:31] so i'm going to use the ancient, time-tested technique of "approval by reauthoring" [02:31] jdub, yeah, i was gonna say, bear translation in mind [02:32] already on the cards [02:32] ogra, Riddell, i think I probably applied the patch wrongly, nm I'll try again tomorrow [02:32] oki [02:32] jdub, cool. will it still be an online page? === mdke crosses fingers for an offline one [02:32] ogra: dude, if this is seriously a change in breezy, trying to think about translations and alternatives and stuff like that is insane [02:32] mdke: absolutely - start.ubuntu.com [02:33] :( [02:33] offline does not make sense [02:33] jdub, we'll carry it over to dapper [02:33] ogra, there won't be translations of the homepage in breezy [02:33] ogra: dapper will use start.ubuntu.com [02:33] absolutely not [02:33] jdub, for edu/kubuntu ? [02:33] ogra: sure [02:33] or any upcoming derivative ? [02:34] xubuntu ... jdubuntu [02:34] if we can provide a simple way of changing the default url as a branding thing, sure [02:34] yup [02:34] or if they don't care that it's 'ubuntu' [02:34] they don't have to worry [02:34] honestly - edubuntu needing a different start page? might be fun down the track, but not important for dapper. [02:34] it has one now [02:35] hence the strife :) [02:35] a different start.ubuntu.com that doesn't completely different things than the current abomination [02:35] jdub : start.ubuntu.com will get diabled in a hurry by a lot of people if we don't have a clever offline fallback. [02:35] jdub, we have our featurelist there ... and since we run a bunch of local servers i want to put links there to reach them [02:35] which has to be branded [02:35] due to said abomination [02:35] infinity, +10 [02:36] epiphany opens the home page in all new tabs... on a modem, that will be IRRITATING [02:36] infinity: how many web browsers ship with offline home pages? how many people want to know that they're online by launching their web browser? [02:36] jdub, it's not so much being offline, but being online, slowly [02:36] jdub : How many OS vendors have to re-implement the same mistakes before we decide not to? [02:37] NetworkMagic will tell Firefox that it's offline and so it'll do something sensible [02:37] Right? [02:37] jdub : I switch my homepage to about:blank most places, not because I'm a fascist, but because online default homepages are irritatingly slow and/or broken. [02:37] infinity: dude. i thought it was right when i suggested it pre-warty. i realise now that i was fundamentally wrong. === mdke nods [02:37] "google.com" [02:37] jdub, how about we make a nicer smaller homepage along the lines of the spec, but make it offline? [02:38] jdub: Browsers are entirely sensible applications to run offline. Having an error appear when an offline user opens it is so insanely painful that I'd rather be nailed to a tree [02:38] mdke: it's not going to be offline. [02:38] mjg59: that's what i thought too. turns out it's useful knowledge, precisely what the user is looking for. [02:38] heh [02:39] jdub: A user who wants to view an offline page is not looking for an error box. They already know they're offline. [02:39] jdub, just a suggestion [02:39] "ah, the web! i am online." vs. "ah, error! i see i am not online." [02:39] jdub: If the use case is "User wants to know if they're online or not", then we should figure out a way to provide that rather than trying to overload another piece of functionality [02:39] jdub : People who've been trained by IE's default page, perhaps. I realise we walk a fine line between "pander to Windows users" and "DTRT for completely new computer users"... I really don't know which direction to go sometimes. [02:39] jdub: Remember that a large proportion of our users are on dialup [02:39] mjg59, +1. It's not about being online or not, it's about having a fast browsing experience [02:39] The default case is that they're offline [02:39] Most of the time, they'll know that they're offline [02:40] mjg59: i'm not convinced that a dancing bear with nipple tassles is going to stop users from doing this very practical, coherent test. [02:40] mjg59 : I concede jdub's point that every time a Windows user wants to see if "The Internet is working", they fire up a web browser and wait for it to do something. [02:40] jdub: But this practical, coherent test results in other practical, coherent use cases generating error messages [02:40] mdke: that's so much tosh [02:40] mjg59: not neccessarily to the knowledge of being online or not. I frequently do it [02:41] jdub, i'm biased because I use epiphany on a relatively low speed connection, and I don't like blank homepages, but I still think it's not "tosh" [02:41] especially since i'm not the only one making the point [02:41] jdub : If start.ubuntu.com is really, really slim, and really, really low latency, then the speed argument's not valid. But our current website certain doesn't fit that bill. [02:41] mjg59: nono, this is very interesting stuff - they *think* they might be online, because the magic of networking is so foreign to them that a practical test wins hands down. [02:41] the network applet should tell them if they are online or not [02:41] jdub: That implies that we're doing something fundamentally wrong with networking [02:41] (Which I could well believe) [02:41] infinity: our current website will *not* be start.ubuntu.com [02:42] mjg59: the world is, not us [02:42] mdke: and they still won't believe it [02:42] Now, if you were suggesting that any application that accesses the network should generate a "You're not online. Would you like to be online?" message when started, then I'd agree [02:42] jdub : I didn't imply that it would be. Just that we're not infamous for web pages that can get a 1-2 second round-trip on dialup. [02:42] and rightly so [02:42] mjg59: the two can coexist [02:42] there will be instances where network-manager thinks it's online, but it's not [02:42] But that's an entirely different argument to "Should I get error messages on Firefox startup" [02:43] And, at the moment, starting Firefox when you don't have an internet connection will result in something mad like "No route to host" or "connection refused" [02:43] That's not informative. It's not telling the user anything they want to know [02:44] we can eventually fix the 'no network at all' stuff [02:44] mjg59: that is a FF bug, not a reason to not use start.ubuntu.com [02:44] They're getting an error, when it could be that they know they can't acces a website [02:44] Burglaptop: No, there's no way for firefox to know [02:44] we can't fix the 'can i access the internet' stuff [02:44] have a big banner up the top of the screen [02:44] NO YOU ARE NOT ON THE INTERWEB [02:45] so apt is wanting to get rid of hal and dbus, I assume something is broke [02:45] A standard userspace application can't tell the difference between being unable to access a website because you have no link to any of the internet, or being unable to access a website because our server has fallen over [02:45] It'll just get "No route to host" in both cases [02:45] floam: welcome to dapper [02:45] floam: wait [02:45] daniels: I'm not perturbed [02:45] lol @daniels and the interweb [02:45] I'm just making sure they didn't get renamed or something [02:45] floam: upgrade, don't dist-upgrade [02:45] floam, its all intentional [02:46] floam: dbus is going through a transition [02:46] jdub: So the case you're talking about isn't actually diagnostic. All it says is that packets can't reach start.ubuntu.com. That might be because you're offline, or it might be because your ISP has dropped chunks of the world, or it might be because our ISP has fucked up. [02:46] jbailey: I didn't dist upgrade [02:46] err [02:46] jdub: [02:46] i didn't even know about that one, and I'm allegedly the dbus maintainer. go figure. [02:46] well, I did once, but that's normla. [02:46] jdub: And people don't want to know whether they can reach start.ubuntu.com. They want to know whether they're ON TEH INTARWEB [02:46] mjg59: how does that conflict with s.u.c? [02:46] mjg59: my mum doesn't know that. but she knows that by trying things in her browser, she'll *practically* know if she's on the internet. a useful, network start page is the first step. [02:47] jdub: If you rephrase this as "Setting firefox to have an online start page is by and large good enough given the technology we currently have", then I'll agree [02:47] But the correct answer isn't to attempt to diagnose whether you're online or not by testing whether you can get an http connection to a specific website [02:47] We can be much smarter than that, and we can do so in a way that isn't firefox specific === mdke still thinks the network applet should do it [02:47] mjg59: my mum doesn't think about it in those terms, and doesn't care. [02:47] mdke: it can't. [02:48] *should* [02:48] *can't* [02:48] do you want to play a game? [02:48] mdke: nothing beats opening your browser and discovering that fact for yourself, little icon or no [02:48] jdub: If Firefox gives your mum (YOUR MUM) an error that's identical in the case where (1) you can't access the internet, and (2) you can't access s.u.c, how is that actually diagnostic of whether she's on the internet [02:48] Burglaptop, ok, well opening your browser and clicking on a weblink would do the trick too [02:48] the network applet *can't* give you a *practical* understanding of whether you can access the internet and do what you want to do or not [02:49] neither can going to s.u.c [02:49] Unless we're talking about multihoming s.u.c [02:49] but both can give you a decent idea [02:49] mdke: why force them to do something more, why not just ry? [02:49] what is the s? [02:49] Burglaptop, because there are good reasons not to, slow speed of loading [02:49] Amaranth: start [02:49] Burglaptop: If I want to read a local html page, why should I get an error message first? [02:49] ah [02:49] Amaranth, BrowserDefaults [02:49] mjg59: she'll try something else, or get on with her life. it's a good start. n-m knowing if it has link/ip/etc isn't a good *practical* start. [02:50] jdub: link/ip isn't a good start. Default gateway is. === nictuku [n=yves@unaffiliated/nictuku] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:50] mjg59: not practically. [02:50] mjg59: why do you want to local page? because you want no page or becuase you want the offline page? [02:50] Burglaptop: Because I'm writing a website locally? [02:50] hi. Is there any documentation or reference for python-apt, besides the docstrings? [02:50] link + ip + default gw + ability to, say, resolve www.google.com [02:50] oh yeah, has anyone managed to get dapper to boot/install on a ppc? [02:50] mjg59: then you doulbe click to open it through nautilus [02:50] jdub: DNS is a significantly better test of that [02:51] Amaranth, i managed to run flight 2 live on ppc [02:51] hrm [02:51] Burglaptop: If that was the general use case, we wouldn't have an open option in the file menu [02:51] mjg59: when you have some spare time to do a basic network training course with my mum, let me know. [02:51] Amaranth, but it boos very sloooooooow [02:51] *boots [02:51] i've got flight 2 live here, it gives an error about not being able to access some pci stuff (for usplash, i guess) then just sits === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:51] jdub: Christ. Your mum doesn't need to know any of that. [02:52] isn't jdub's mum a geek? [02:52] jdub: Our job is to provide an OS that tells your mum "Your internet isn't working" [02:52] Amaranth, give it time === vanhoofp [n=pvanhoof@86.39.154.81] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:52] i got a similar error running it in vmware but usplash still worked and things still booted [02:52] ogra: i'm stuck on OS X :P [02:52] mjg59: so in the mean time, she'll try and load a web page. :-) [02:52] Amaranth, how long did you wait ? [02:52] jdub: And that's something that should be entirely independent of Firefox. That's something that we should be implementing in all our networked apps. [02:52] jdub: Or, more sensibly, it's something that should be monitored centrally [02:52] mjg59: that is a good thing but most users will still open their webbrowser [02:52] ogra: oh, i counted to 20, went to the bathroom, then restarted [02:52] ogra: so probably about 90 seconds [02:52] mjg59: a little icon the notication tray or a popup is good thing as well, but doesn't preclude have start.u.c [02:52] and the CD wasn't being read at all [02:53] Amaranth, give it more time :) [02:53] i don't disagree. but that still won't stop users trying a totally sensible and practical way to determine if the computer/network/magic is lying or not. :-) [02:53] jdub: Again, I'm willing to accept that this is the best we can do right now [02:53] jdub: But would you please accept that what you're currently proposing does have negative effects on a reasonable use case? [02:54] mjg59: very minor negative effects on a very edge use case - sure [02:54] jdub: Negative effects of an error being generated when (in that case) there is no error [02:55] sure there's an error -> your internet isn't working [02:55] but you want to do something different, and that's okay [02:55] jdub: But I'm not trying to access the internet. I'm trying to open a local HTML document. [02:55] Right. You're overloading "Opening Firefox" to "Trying to access the internet" [02:55] that's okay === vanhoofp [n=pvanhoof@86.39.154.81] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:55] no we're not [02:55] it just happens to be really good at that [02:56] and telling you that you can't [02:56] jdub: You want people who open Firefox to be told whether or not they have internet access [02:56] jdub: And, in /other/ fringe cases, you result in Firefox sitting there for ages before generating an error message [02:56] i want it to "do that network thing", because that is *VASTLY* the major use case [02:57] jdub: So, does your mum think that opening firefox when the start page is local is a test of the internet? (I don't know the answer to this) [02:57] when i ask my mum, "are you connected to the internet?" she launches her browser [02:58] betterdesktop.org had the same results [02:58] Does she launch her browser, or does she launch her browser, wait for it to say "Welcome to Ubuntu" and then type in a URL? [02:58] we should probably postpone such a change until we have a sane way to handle dialup ... === mdke hugs ogra [02:58] mjg59: she sees the firefox start page working and says, "yes" [02:59] since currently only the sudo user can use dialup ... [02:59] jdub: By that argument, a link at the top of a local page saying "Check if you're on the internet" would seem about as reasonable [02:59] jdub: part of that is due to not have a good way for Windows to notify the user as to network state, but that doesn't preclude s.u.c, in my mind [02:59] Burglaptop: however it did it, users would do this anyway [02:59] Burglaptop: because it's practical [02:59] "is this water too hot?" ... "i'll put a thermometer in it!" [02:59] jdub: precisely why I am made the second part of that statement [02:59] no, you touch the side of the glass, or dip your finger in [03:00] jdub: We can have firefox provide this information without having this sort of hack. It's just more effort. [03:00] mjg59: how do you know if your car can run? Do you look a light or do you just turn the key? [03:01] Burglaptop, a car only has one function, to run. [03:01] mjg59: this is not a hack. name a browser that ships with an offline home page. [03:01] the browser does online and offline [03:01] mdke: for 95% of its life, so does a webbrowser [03:01] standard operation for a network application [03:01] it's not exactly surprising, scary or bad [03:01] jdub: It's a hack when "No route to host" is treated as equivalent to "You don't have the internet" [03:01] jdub: The two of these are not the same at all [03:01] Indeed. [03:02] In many cases they overlap. But I think telling people "You don't appear to be on the internet. Would you like to be?" is much more sensible than "No route to host" [03:02] mjg59: in most cases, not being able to get to s.u.c is going to mena they cannot get the general interweb [03:02] And that's what IE does [03:02] mjg59, even worse, in case of dialup there is "no such device" [03:02] Note that windows DOES do this differently, so saying "we should use an online start page like windows does, cause they do it" isn't really quite right. [03:02] mjg59: great, let's fix that bug when we can [03:02] infinity: that's not what i'm saying [03:02] Windows will detect the lack of an default gateway when you try to hit that start page, and prompt you to DO something about it (dial-up, etc) [03:02] It's also the case that most browsers ship with online start pages because the vendors want to be able to provide more up to date advertising [03:03] In our case, as mjg59 says, we'll end up with "remote server dead" and "you have no internet" being the same error. [03:03] jdub: We have all the components to do that now. We just need someone to commit to us fixing it as a priority. [03:03] infinity: post-dapper, We'll Have The Technology. [03:03] mjg59: and we would like people to find ours useful, informative and up-to-date, not static. [03:03] a real hack would be: setting the page to an offline one.. and code that page so it fetches some content online ;) ala AJAX, while the data is not fetched a .gif showing some progress would indicate that something is being done! [03:04] jdub, if the page will be short and light, it won't need a lot of updating [03:04] jdub: Right. If there's a desire to provide non-static information, then I'm all for that. That wasn't the argument you seemed to be making. [03:04] mdke: you are confusing short and light with static [03:04] mdke: it will be short, light, and include dynamic content, and not forever look like arse after it's been distributed on a cd. [03:04] mdke: an rss feed of the top item on the fridge is short but not static [03:04] mjg59: read the spec [03:04] mjg59: even in its current state === SloMoSnail [n=slomo@p5487F2C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:05] the looking like arse thing is not online-specific [03:05] but the rss feed of the fridge sounds good yeah [03:05] have you read what i said? [03:05] xhaker, yeah sounds cool [03:06] xhaker: can you do it? [03:06] mdke: read "forever" and "static" louder than "look like arse" [03:06] it would be wierd to have too much stuff on the offline page tho [03:06] i guess the css would have to be the same unless the ubuntu-doc package is updated [03:06] mdke: after 5 years, a static, on-cd/in-package dapper home page will look like arse. [03:07] jdub, so you'll change the look? [03:07] presumably the "welcome to ubuntu, ubuntu is great" stuff won't change a lot [03:07] xhaker: it's an interesting idea, but doesn't really meet the spec - we may change what s.u.c does for all kinds of good reasons. [03:07] mdke: of course [03:07] there are lots of reasons it might change [03:08] jdub, commercial ones? [03:08] jdub, i really dont see the prob with changing the page through dapper-updates ... [03:08] i like to think more in terms of marketing and outreach than commercial [03:08] ogra: i do. sorry. [03:08] mdke: think of new things like the firdge [03:08] ogra: not willing to ship a new package every time the fridge changes, or we launch a new service, or there's a new release, etc. [03:09] ogra: or when we change our thematic approach to design, etc. [03:09] jdub, i neqat in terms of looking outdated, not as a rss replacement [03:09] ogra: just giving you all the reasons why that's not practical. [03:09] s/neqat/meant/ [03:09] jdub, so make the offline version just a bunch of divs? just the layout and some text saying it is Loading++! (and a css for positioning) and then get the content you want to the corresponding div.. [03:10] xhaker: ends up mostly nuking the benefit of doing it that way, and adding complication to boot. [03:10] so maybe the page woudn't look the same on breezy and on dapper [03:11] jdub, what i mean.. is that the offline version should already have some stuff.. [03:11] xhaker: i understand, but don't agree right now. [03:11] like: "Trying to get updates" [03:12] somehow it sound neat [03:12]