[12:07] <Pygi> welcome thierry
[12:07] <thierry> Pygi: thanks
[12:10] <mdke> Pygi, you're the welcome bot?
[12:10] <mdke> :)
[12:10] <Pygi> mdke: yes, I am the welcome bot ;)
[12:10] <ptlo> oh, he does that on every channel? :))
[12:10] <Pygi> mdke: soon I'll evolve to the "How may we be of service?" bot ;)
[12:11] <Kamion> not to be a killjoy, but I think I'd prefer useful scrollback in #ubuntu-devel to a welcome-bot. :)
[12:13] <Pygi> Kamion: why? what? when? what? heh! ;)
[12:17] <ptlo> Kamion: don't request that, he'll comply with pasting XYZ previous lines along *with* the welcome message ;-)
[12:19] <Pygi> I am stoping to say welcome to anyone ;) now you are on your own ;)
[12:20] <ptlo> i feel so alone...:)
[12:22] <cron0> Hi
[12:22] <ptlo> welcome cron0!
[12:22] <cron0> Thanks! :)
[12:23] <ptlo> . o o (oh no...i've succumbed to the pyginess syndrome! :)
[12:24] <daniels> (guys, useful scrollback ...)
[12:26] <aurynn_u> Just wanting to say good job on ubuntu, it's actually starting to get reasonable
[12:27] <Riddell> quite the complement
[12:27] <cron0> I came here wondering if I were the only one having dependency issues with libdbus at this moment?
[12:28] <Riddell> cron0: there's been a new dbus, rebuilding is happening now
[12:28] <Riddell> rebuilding of dependencies that is
[12:28] <infinity> cron0 : No, massive transition, this would be a better question for #ubuntu-users
[12:28] <Riddell> there's a #ubuntu-users?
[12:28] <aurynn_u> Riddell, from me, more than you know.
[12:29] <aurynn_u> given I'm comparing directly to OSX
[12:30] <cron0> Cool, I was just wondering :)
[12:31] <cron0> Are there any dev sites/blogs where huge transitions like this are posted?
[12:34] <Riddell> cron0: usually ubuntu-devel-announce would be it, I can't remember seeing this transition on it though
[12:34] <sistpoty> ping BenC
[12:36] <cron0> ok!
[12:38] <BenC> sistopy: pong
[12:38] <BenC> infinity: much better comment, I knew it was you that time without looking at the name :)
[12:39] <sistpoty> BenC: /me reported #20910
[12:39] <BenC> sistopy: hey
[12:39] <sistpoty> BenC: I doubt it's an hardware issue
[12:39] <BenC> sistopy: come over to #ubuntu-kernel if you don't mind
[12:39] <sistpoty> BenC: sure
[12:40] <daniels> Kamion: \o/
[12:40] <ogra> Kamion, have fun and relax :)
[12:40] <Kamion> see you at the distro team meeting on Thursday, and then in 2006; mail me if there are urgent decisions to make
[12:41] <daniels> echo "lets use reiser4 4 dapper!!!!! yay or nay pls" | mail cjwatson@ubuntu.com
[12:41] <ogra> lool
[12:42] <ogra> that wont work, we dont install an MTA !!!!
[12:42] <aigarius> LOL
[12:42] <seth_k|lappy> Ubuntu is under attack!
[12:43] <ogra> actually it was a very helpful thread hat pointed out a missing dependency in popcon :)
[01:01] <infinity> Riddell : Err, I meant #ubuntu, obviously.  I get list/channel mappings confused when I've been awake all night.
[01:03] <Riddell> mdke: there's a parser error on the ubuntu-docs
[01:03] <Riddell> two or three actually
[01:17] <ptlo> what's the package containing the data for the panel menus? (Applications/Places/System) ? i'm trying to translate it, but i don't know where to look (it isn't in the gnome panel).
[01:17] <ptlo> (if i'm offtopic, sorry:)
[01:18] <tseng> ptlo: how about right clicking the panel and saying "Translate this app"?
[01:18] <tseng> it should take you to the right place in rosetta
[01:19] <tseng> or, it would if firefox worked as expected
[01:19] <ptlo> tseng: it's not part of the gnome panel, we've translated that
[01:19] <ptlo> tseng: i mean the items *under* the Applications menu (Accessories, Games, ... <- the section names)
[01:19] <tseng> im guessing you mean either gnome-panel-data or gnome-menus
[01:19] <ptlo> oh! thanks
[01:20] <tseng> nps
[01:20] <ptlo> we don't have those enabled in rosetta so i missed them
[01:20] <ptlo> (we == hr lang team)
[01:35] <Riddell> infinity: http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-docs.diff http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-docs.diff
[01:54] <jdub> whoa
[01:55] <jdub> everything depending on d-bus
[01:55] <jdub> scary
[01:55] <tseng> jdub: there is no cabal
[01:56] <ogra> hey its a development release, you know :P
[01:59] <mdke> Riddell, is that a diff on my package? looks good
[01:59] <tseng> its not that bad per maintainer
[01:59] <daniels> i should bump the soversion on libx11 for shits and giggles
[01:59] <Riddell> mdke: could you test it please
[01:59] <mdke> Riddell, tomorrow?
[01:59] <ogra> Riddell, looks good to me too ...
[01:59] <mdke> Riddell, what are the faqguide.fr and faqguide.it changes?
[02:00] <ogra> i'll adopt it for edubuntu if i dont find heavy objections in my baclog tomorrow
[02:00] <mdke> oh nice
[02:00] <mdke> Riddell, you rock, even correcting those
[02:01] <ogra> scottish politeness :)
[02:02] <infinity> Riddell : Where's the original that the ubuntu diff is based on?
[02:02] <mdke> infinity, http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/breezy-updates
[02:03] <infinity> mdke : danke.
[02:03] <mdke> bitte
[02:04] <Riddell> mdke: to make it validate
[02:04] <mdke> Riddell, yeah, i saw the change eventually, you are a perfectionist :)
[02:04] <mdke> good stuff
[02:09] <mdke> Riddell, what the hell, i'll test it now. where is the pkg?
[02:09] <mdke> or do i have to build it?
[02:11] <Riddell> mdke: building it would be best
[02:11] <mdke> def. tomorrow then, my internet is a bit slow and I've mislaid my local copy
[02:14] <mdke> and I'll have to learn how to use patch too
[02:16] <ogra> Riddell, shouldnt kubuntu have a higher priority ? 
[02:17] <ogra> you set it to 40 too ...
[02:18] <Riddell> ogra: why?
[02:18] <ogra> because you make sure it gets preferred as alternative in automatic mode
[02:19] <infinity> To be fair, no one really knows what screen you'd prefer to see if you have ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, and edubuntu-desktop installed at the same time.
[02:19] <ogra> and i think ubuntu-docs needs an --auto in its postinstall, but infinity might correct me here
[02:19] <infinity> And, no, maintainer scripts should NEVER call --auto.  Ever.
[02:19] <ogra> i know that i want to see edubuntu in any case 
[02:20] <infinity> That overrides the local admin's decision.
[02:20] <ogra> ok
[02:20] <infinity> Anyhow, I'll peruse these diffs later today, and either upload them as-is, or fix them and upload them, depending on what's required.
[02:20] <infinity> Riddell : Thanks for doing the grunt work.
[02:21] <xhaker> got a new one for you.. gutenprint imho should be updated (the 5.0.0rc5 is already on debian unstable) this should add support for many more printers, and it doesn't feature on PrintingRoadmap spec th
[02:22] <mdke> Riddell, i built it and installed it on my ubuntu breezy, but I have no index.html in the relevant file, only firefox-index.html
[02:22] <Riddell> mdke: /etc/alternatives/firefox-index ?
[02:23] <mdke> Riddell, no such file
[02:23] <Riddell> hmm, not good
[02:23] <mdke> assuming i built it right
[02:23] <mdke> think so
[02:24] <infinity> mdke : Do you have either kubuntu-docs or edubuntu-docs installed as well?
[02:24] <mdke> infinity, no
[02:25] <infinity> dpkg -S /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
[02:25] <mdke> it's not there...
[02:25] <mdke> dpkg can't see it
[02:25] <infinity> Right, and it shouldn't be.
[02:25] <mdke> well how can my browser display it?
[02:25] <infinity> update-alternatives --display firefox-homepage
[02:25] <mdke> No alternatives for firefox-homepage.
[02:26] <mdke> the file shouldn't be there?
[02:26] <ogra> it should be a link to /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage
[02:27] <infinity> Well, the file should be a symlink owned by the alternatives system.
[02:27] <infinity> So, Riddell broke something, perhaps. :)
[02:27] <mdke> there is nothing in either of those :)
[02:27] <infinity> I'll look at it later on today, unless you guys feel like fixing it.
[02:27] <mdke> this will work for epiphany too right?
[02:27] <ogra> i dont see an error in the code ...
[02:28] <mdke> silly question, but all this talk of ff makes me nervous
[02:28] <jdub> this seems like a lot of work to go to when we're going to switch to start.ubuntu.com anyway...
[02:28] <ogra> +    update-alternatives \
[02:28] <ogra> +      --install /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html \
[02:28] <ogra> +      firefox-homepage /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/firefox-index.html 40
[02:28] <mdke> jdub, it is for breezy
[02:28] <ogra> looks totally ok
[02:28] <mdke> ogra, maybe I built the package wrong
[02:29] <jdub> breezy? okay - i don't want to know.
[02:29] <mdke> jdub, so is somebody going to approve and implement start.ubuntu.com?
[02:29] <ogra> does /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/firefox-index.html exist ?
[02:29] <mdke> ogra, yes
[02:29] <jdub> mdke: yeah
[02:29] <ogra> hmm, and /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage doesnt point to it ? 
[02:29] <mdke> jdub, ah, who?
[02:29] <mdke> ogra, there isn't one of those
[02:29] <jdub> mdke: moi
[02:29] <ogra> very strange
[02:30] <mdke> jdub, aha
[02:31] <jdub> neither do i
[02:31] <ogra> hmm, btw, how do we handle translations of this page with the alternatives system ? 
[02:31] <jdub> so i'm going to use the ancient, time-tested technique of "approval by reauthoring"
[02:31] <mdke> jdub, yeah, i was gonna say, bear translation in mind
[02:32] <jdub> already on the cards
[02:32] <mdke> ogra, Riddell, i think I probably applied the patch wrongly, nm I'll try again tomorrow
[02:32] <ogra> oki
[02:32] <mdke> jdub, cool. will it still be an online page?
[02:32] <jdub> ogra: dude, if this is seriously a change in breezy, trying to think about translations and alternatives and stuff like that is insane
[02:32] <jdub> mdke: absolutely - start.ubuntu.com
[02:33] <mdke> :(
[02:33] <jdub> offline does not make sense
[02:33] <ogra> jdub, we'll carry it over to dapper
[02:33] <mdke> ogra, there won't be translations of the homepage in breezy
[02:33] <jdub> ogra: dapper will use start.ubuntu.com
[02:33] <mdke> absolutely not
[02:33] <ogra> jdub, for edu/kubuntu ? 
[02:33] <jdub> ogra: sure
[02:33] <ogra> or any upcoming derivative ? 
[02:34] <ogra> xubuntu ... jdubuntu 
[02:34] <jdub> if we can provide a simple way of changing the default url as a branding thing, sure
[02:34] <ogra> yup
[02:34] <jdub> or if they don't care that it's 'ubuntu'
[02:34] <jdub> they don't have to worry
[02:34] <jdub> honestly - edubuntu needing a different start page? might be fun down the track, but not important for dapper.
[02:34] <mdke> it has one now
[02:35] <mdke> hence the strife :)
[02:35] <jdub> a different start.ubuntu.com that doesn't completely different things than the current abomination
[02:35] <infinity> jdub : start.ubuntu.com will get diabled in a hurry by a lot of people if we don't have a clever offline fallback.
[02:35] <ogra> jdub, we have our featurelist there ... and since we run a bunch of local servers i want to put links there to reach them
[02:35] <jdub> which has to be branded
[02:35] <jdub> due to said abomination
[02:35] <mdke> infinity, +10
[02:36] <mdke> epiphany opens the home page in all new tabs... on a modem, that will be IRRITATING
[02:36] <jdub> infinity: how many web browsers ship with offline home pages? how many people want to know that they're online by launching their web browser?
[02:36] <mdke> jdub, it's not so much being offline, but being online, slowly
[02:36] <infinity> jdub : How many OS vendors have to re-implement the same mistakes before we decide not to?
[02:37] <mjg59> NetworkMagic will tell Firefox that it's offline and so it'll do something sensible
[02:37] <mjg59> Right?
[02:37] <infinity> jdub : I switch my homepage to about:blank most places, not because I'm a fascist, but because online default homepages are irritatingly slow and/or broken.
[02:37] <jdub> infinity: dude. i thought it was right when i suggested it pre-warty. i realise now that i was fundamentally wrong.
[02:37] <tseng> "google.com"
[02:37] <mdke> jdub, how about we make a nicer smaller homepage along the lines of the spec, but make it offline?
[02:38] <mjg59> jdub: Browsers are entirely sensible applications to run offline. Having an error appear when an offline user opens it is so insanely painful that I'd rather be nailed to a tree
[02:38] <jdub> mdke: it's not going to be offline.
[02:38] <jdub> mjg59: that's what i thought too. turns out it's useful knowledge, precisely what the user is looking for.
[02:38] <mdke> heh
[02:39] <mjg59> jdub: A user who wants to view an offline page is not looking for an error box. They already know they're offline.
[02:39] <mdke> jdub, just a suggestion
[02:39] <jdub> "ah, the web! i am online." vs. "ah, error! i see i am not online."
[02:39] <mjg59> jdub: If the use case is "User wants to know if they're online or not", then we should figure out a way to provide that rather than trying to overload another piece of functionality
[02:39] <infinity> jdub : People who've been trained by IE's default page, perhaps.  I realise we walk a fine line between "pander to Windows users" and "DTRT for completely new computer users"... I really don't know which direction to go sometimes.
[02:39] <mjg59> jdub: Remember that a large proportion of our users are on dialup
[02:39] <mdke> mjg59, +1. It's not about being online or not, it's about having a fast browsing experience
[02:39] <mjg59> The default case is that they're offline
[02:39] <mjg59> Most of the time, they'll know that they're offline
[02:40] <jdub> mjg59: i'm not convinced that a dancing bear with nipple tassles is going to stop users from doing this very practical, coherent test.
[02:40] <infinity> mjg59 : I concede jdub's point that every time a Windows user wants to see if "The Internet is working", they fire up a web browser and wait for it to do something.
[02:40] <mjg59> jdub: But this practical, coherent test results in other practical, coherent use cases generating error messages
[02:40] <jdub> mdke: that's so much tosh
[02:40] <Burglaptop> mjg59: not neccessarily to the knowledge of being online or not. I frequently do it
[02:41] <mdke> jdub, i'm biased because I use epiphany on a relatively low speed connection, and I don't like blank homepages, but I still think it's not "tosh"
[02:41] <mdke> especially since i'm not the only one making the point
[02:41] <infinity> jdub : If start.ubuntu.com is really, really slim, and really, really low latency, then the speed argument's not valid.  But our current website certain doesn't fit that bill.
[02:41] <jdub> mjg59: nono, this is very interesting stuff - they *think* they might be online, because the magic of networking is so foreign to them that a practical test wins hands down.
[02:41] <mdke> the network applet should tell them if they are online or not
[02:41] <mjg59> jdub: That implies that we're doing something fundamentally wrong with networking
[02:41] <mjg59> (Which I could well believe)
[02:41] <jdub> infinity: our current website will *not* be start.ubuntu.com
[02:42] <jdub> mjg59: the world is, not us
[02:42] <jdub> mdke: and they still won't believe it
[02:42] <mjg59> Now, if you were suggesting that any application that accesses the network should generate a "You're not online. Would you like to be online?" message when started, then I'd agree
[02:42] <infinity> jdub : I didn't imply that it would be.  Just that we're not infamous for web pages that can get a 1-2 second round-trip on dialup.
[02:42] <jdub> and rightly so
[02:42] <Burglaptop> mjg59: the two can coexist
[02:42] <jdub> there will be instances where network-manager thinks it's online, but it's not
[02:42] <mjg59> But that's an entirely different argument to "Should I get error messages on Firefox startup"
[02:43] <mjg59> And, at the moment, starting Firefox when you don't have an internet connection will result in something mad like "No route to host" or "connection refused"
[02:43] <mjg59> That's not informative. It's not telling the user anything they want to know
[02:44] <jdub> we can eventually fix the 'no network at all' stuff
[02:44] <Burglaptop> mjg59: that is a FF bug, not a reason to not use start.ubuntu.com
[02:44] <mjg59> They're getting an error, when it could be that they know they can't acces a website
[02:44] <mjg59> Burglaptop: No, there's no way for firefox to know
[02:44] <jdub> we can't fix the 'can i access the internet' stuff
[02:44] <daniels> have a big banner up the top of the screen
[02:44] <daniels> NO YOU ARE NOT ON THE INTERWEB
[02:45] <floam> so apt is wanting to get rid of hal and dbus, I assume something is broke
[02:45] <mjg59> A standard userspace application can't tell the difference between being unable to access a website because you have no link to any of the internet, or being unable to access a website because our server has fallen over
[02:45] <mjg59> It'll just get "No route to host" in both cases
[02:45] <daniels> floam: welcome to dapper
[02:45] <Burglaptop> floam: wait
[02:45] <floam> daniels: I'm not perturbed
[02:45] <mdke> lol @daniels and the interweb
[02:45] <floam> I'm just making sure they didn't get renamed or something
[02:45] <jdub> floam: upgrade, don't dist-upgrade
[02:45] <ogra> floam, its all intentional
[02:46] <Burglaptop> floam: dbus is going through a transition
[02:46] <mjg59> jdub: So the case you're talking about isn't actually diagnostic. All it says is that packets can't reach start.ubuntu.com. That might be because you're offline, or it might be because your ISP has dropped chunks of the world, or it might be because our ISP has fucked up.
[02:46] <floam> jbailey: I didn't dist upgrade
[02:46] <floam> err
[02:46] <floam> jdub: 
[02:46] <daniels> i didn't even know about that one, and I'm allegedly the dbus maintainer.  go figure.
[02:46] <floam> well, I did once, but that's normla.
[02:46] <mjg59> jdub: And people don't want to know whether they can reach start.ubuntu.com. They want to know whether they're ON TEH INTARWEB
[02:46] <Burglaptop> mjg59: how does that conflict with s.u.c?
[02:46] <jdub> mjg59: my mum doesn't know that. but she knows that by trying things in her browser, she'll *practically* know if she's on the internet. a useful, network start page is the first step.
[02:47] <mjg59> jdub: If you rephrase this as "Setting firefox to have an online start page is by and large good enough given the technology we currently have", then I'll agree
[02:47] <mjg59> But the correct answer isn't to attempt to diagnose whether you're online or not by testing whether you can get an http connection to a specific website
[02:47] <mjg59> We can be much smarter than that, and we can do so in a way that isn't firefox specific
[02:47] <jdub> mjg59: my mum doesn't think about it in those terms, and doesn't care.
[02:47] <jdub> mdke: it can't.
[02:48] <mdke> *should*
[02:48] <jdub> *can't*
[02:48] <jdub> do you want to play a game?
[02:48] <Burglaptop> mdke: nothing beats opening your browser and discovering that fact for yourself, little icon or no
[02:48] <mjg59> jdub: If Firefox gives your mum (YOUR MUM) an error that's identical in the case where (1) you can't access the internet, and (2) you can't access s.u.c, how is that actually diagnostic of whether she's on the internet
[02:48] <mdke> Burglaptop, ok, well opening your browser and clicking on a weblink would do the trick too
[02:48] <jdub> the network applet *can't* give you a *practical* understanding of whether you can access the internet and do what you want to do or not
[02:49] <daniels> neither can going to s.u.c
[02:49] <mjg59> Unless we're talking about multihoming s.u.c
[02:49] <daniels> but both can give you a decent idea
[02:49] <Burglaptop> mdke: why force them to do something more, why not just ry?
[02:49] <Amaranth> what is the s?
[02:49] <mdke> Burglaptop, because there are good reasons not to, slow speed of loading
[02:49] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: start
[02:49] <mjg59> Burglaptop: If I want to read a local html page, why should I get an error message first?
[02:49] <Amaranth> ah
[02:49] <mdke> Amaranth, BrowserDefaults
[02:49] <jdub> mjg59: she'll try something else, or get on with her life. it's a good start. n-m knowing if it has link/ip/etc isn't a good *practical* start.
[02:50] <mjg59> jdub: link/ip isn't a good start. Default gateway is.
[02:50] <jdub> mjg59: not practically.
[02:50] <Burglaptop> mjg59: why do you want to local page? because you want no page or becuase you want the offline page?
[02:50] <mjg59> Burglaptop: Because I'm writing a website locally?
[02:50] <nictuku> hi. Is there any documentation or reference for python-apt, besides the docstrings?
[02:50] <daniels> link + ip + default gw + ability to, say, resolve www.google.com
[02:50] <Amaranth> oh yeah, has anyone managed to get dapper to boot/install on a ppc?
[02:50] <Burglaptop> mjg59: then you doulbe click to open it through nautilus
[02:50] <mjg59> jdub: DNS is a significantly better test of that
[02:51] <ogra> Amaranth, i managed to run flight 2 live on ppc
[02:51] <Amaranth> hrm
[02:51] <mjg59> Burglaptop: If that was the general use case, we wouldn't have an open option in the file menu
[02:51] <jdub> mjg59: when you have some spare time to do a basic network training course with my mum, let me know.
[02:51] <ogra> Amaranth, but it boos very sloooooooow
[02:51] <ogra> *boots
[02:51] <Amaranth> i've got flight 2 live here, it gives an error about not being able to access some pci stuff (for usplash, i guess) then just sits
[02:51] <mjg59> jdub: Christ. Your mum doesn't need to know any of that.
[02:52] <mdke> isn't jdub's mum a geek?
[02:52] <mjg59> jdub: Our job is to provide an OS that tells your mum "Your internet isn't working"
[02:52] <ogra> Amaranth, give it time
[02:52] <Amaranth> i got a similar error running it in vmware but usplash still worked and things still booted
[02:52] <Amaranth> ogra: i'm stuck on OS X :P
[02:52] <jdub> mjg59: so in the mean time, she'll try and load a web page. :-)
[02:52] <ogra> Amaranth, how long did you wait ? 
[02:52] <mjg59> jdub: And that's something that should be entirely independent of Firefox. That's something that we should be implementing in all our networked apps.
[02:52] <mjg59> jdub: Or, more sensibly, it's something that should be monitored centrally
[02:52] <Burglaptop> mjg59: that is a good thing but most users will still open their webbrowser
[02:52] <Amaranth> ogra: oh, i counted to 20, went to the bathroom, then restarted
[02:52] <Amaranth> ogra: so probably about 90 seconds
[02:52] <Burglaptop> mjg59: a little icon the notication tray or a popup is good thing as well, but doesn't preclude have start.u.c
[02:52] <Amaranth> and the CD wasn't being read at all
[02:53] <ogra> Amaranth, give it more time :) 
[02:53] <jdub> i don't disagree. but that still won't stop users trying a totally sensible and practical way to determine if the computer/network/magic is lying or not. :-)
[02:53] <mjg59> jdub: Again, I'm willing to accept that this is the best we can do right now
[02:53] <mjg59> jdub: But would you please accept that what you're currently proposing does have negative effects on a reasonable use case?
[02:54] <jdub> mjg59: very minor negative effects on a very edge use case - sure
[02:54] <mjg59> jdub: Negative effects of an error being generated when (in that case) there is no error
[02:55] <jdub> sure there's an error -> your internet isn't working
[02:55] <jdub> but you want to do something different, and that's okay
[02:55] <mjg59> jdub: But I'm not trying to access the internet. I'm trying to open a local HTML document.
[02:55] <mjg59> Right. You're overloading "Opening Firefox" to "Trying to access the internet"
[02:55] <jdub> that's okay
[02:55] <jdub> no we're not
[02:55] <jdub> it just happens to be really good at that
[02:56] <jdub> and telling you that you can't
[02:56] <mjg59> jdub: You want people who open Firefox to be told whether or not they have internet access
[02:56] <mjg59> jdub: And, in /other/ fringe cases, you result in Firefox sitting there for ages before generating an error message
[02:56] <jdub> i want it to "do that network thing", because that is *VASTLY* the major use case
[02:57] <mjg59> jdub: So, does your mum think that opening firefox when the start page is local is a test of the internet? (I don't know the answer to this)
[02:57] <jdub> when i ask my mum, "are you connected to the internet?" she launches her browser
[02:58] <jdub> betterdesktop.org had the same results
[02:58] <mjg59> Does she launch her browser, or does she launch her browser, wait for it to say "Welcome to Ubuntu" and then type in a URL?
[02:58] <ogra> we should probably postpone such a change until we have a sane way to handle dialup ...
[02:58] <jdub> mjg59: she sees the firefox start page working and says, "yes"
[02:59] <ogra> since currently only the sudo user can use dialup ...
[02:59] <mjg59> jdub: By that argument, a link at the top of a local page saying "Check if you're on the internet" would seem about as reasonable
[02:59] <Burglaptop> jdub: part of that is due to not have a good way for Windows to notify the user as to network state, but that doesn't preclude s.u.c, in my mind
[02:59] <jdub> Burglaptop: however it did it, users would do this anyway
[02:59] <jdub> Burglaptop: because it's practical
[02:59] <jdub> "is this water too hot?" ... "i'll put a thermometer in it!"
[02:59] <Burglaptop> jdub: precisely why I am made the second part of that statement
[02:59] <jdub> no, you touch the side of the glass, or dip your finger in
[03:00] <mjg59> jdub: We can have firefox provide this information without having this sort of hack. It's just more effort.
[03:00] <Burglaptop> mjg59: how do you know if your car can run? Do you look a light or do you just turn the key?
[03:01] <mdke> Burglaptop, a car only has one function, to run.
[03:01] <jdub> mjg59: this is not a hack. name a browser that ships with an offline home page.
[03:01] <mdke> the browser does online and offline
[03:01] <Burglaptop> mdke: for 95% of its life, so does a webbrowser
[03:01] <jdub> standard operation for a network application
[03:01] <jdub> it's not exactly surprising, scary or bad
[03:01] <mjg59> jdub: It's a hack when "No route to host" is treated as equivalent to "You don't have the internet"
[03:01] <mjg59> jdub: The two of these are not the same at all
[03:01] <infinity> Indeed.
[03:02] <mjg59> In many cases they overlap. But I think telling people "You don't appear to be on the internet. Would you like to be?" is much more sensible than "No route to host"
[03:02] <Burglaptop> mjg59: in most cases, not being able to get to s.u.c is going to mena they cannot get the general interweb
[03:02] <mjg59> And that's what IE does
[03:02] <ogra> mjg59, even worse, in case of dialup there is "no such device"
[03:02] <infinity> Note that windows DOES do this differently, so saying "we should use an online start page like windows does, cause they do it" isn't really quite right.
[03:02] <jdub> mjg59: great, let's fix that bug when we can
[03:02] <jdub> infinity: that's not what i'm saying
[03:02] <infinity> Windows will detect the lack of an default gateway when you try to hit that start page, and prompt you to DO something about it (dial-up, etc)
[03:02] <mjg59> It's also the case that most browsers ship with online start pages because the vendors want to be able to provide more up to date advertising
[03:03] <infinity> In our case, as mjg59 says, we'll end up with "remote server dead" and "you have no internet" being the same error.
[03:03] <mjg59> jdub: We have all the components to do that now. We just need someone to commit to us fixing it as a priority.
[03:03] <jdub> infinity: post-dapper, We'll Have The Technology.
[03:03] <jdub> mjg59: and we would like people to find ours useful, informative and up-to-date, not static.
[03:03] <xhaker> a real hack would be: setting the page to an offline one.. and code that page so it fetches some content online ;) ala AJAX, while the data is not fetched a .gif showing some progress would indicate that something is being done!
[03:04] <mdke> jdub, if the page will be short and light, it won't need a lot of updating
[03:04] <mjg59> jdub: Right. If there's a desire to provide non-static information, then I'm all for that. That wasn't the argument you seemed to be making.
[03:04] <Burglaptop> mdke: you are confusing short and light with static
[03:04] <jdub> mdke: it will be short, light, and include dynamic content, and not forever look like arse after it's been distributed on a cd.
[03:04] <Burglaptop> mdke: an rss feed of the top item on the fridge is short but not static
[03:04] <jdub> mjg59: read the spec
[03:04] <jdub> mjg59: even in its current state
[03:05] <mdke> the looking like arse thing is not online-specific
[03:05] <mdke> but the rss feed of the fridge sounds good yeah
[03:05] <xhaker> have you read what i said?
[03:05] <mdke> xhaker, yeah sounds cool
[03:06] <Burglaptop> xhaker: can you do it?
[03:06] <jdub> mdke: read "forever" and "static" louder than "look like arse"
[03:06] <xhaker> it would be wierd to have too much stuff on the offline page tho
[03:06] <xhaker> i guess the css would have to be the same unless the ubuntu-doc package is updated
[03:06] <jdub> mdke: after 5 years, a static, on-cd/in-package dapper home page will look like arse.
[03:07] <mdke> jdub, so you'll change the look?
[03:07] <mdke> presumably the "welcome to ubuntu, ubuntu is great" stuff won't change a lot
[03:07] <jdub> xhaker: it's an interesting idea, but doesn't really meet the spec - we may change what s.u.c does for all kinds of good reasons.
[03:07] <jdub> mdke: of course
[03:07] <jdub> there are lots of reasons it might change
[03:08] <mdke> jdub, commercial ones?
[03:08] <ogra> jdub, i really dont see the prob with changing the page through dapper-updates ...
[03:08] <jdub> i like to think more in terms of marketing and outreach than commercial
[03:08] <jdub> ogra: i do. sorry.
[03:08] <Burglaptop> mdke: think of new things like the firdge
[03:08] <jdub> ogra: not willing to ship a new package every time the fridge changes, or we launch a new service, or there's a new release, etc.
[03:09] <jdub> ogra: or when we change our thematic approach to design, etc.
[03:09] <ogra> jdub, i neqat in terms of looking outdated, not as a rss replacement
[03:09] <jdub> ogra: just giving you all the reasons why that's not practical.
[03:09] <ogra> s/neqat/meant/
[03:09] <xhaker> jdub, so make the offline version just a bunch of divs? just the layout and some text saying it is Loading++! (and a css for positioning) and then get the content you want to the corresponding div..
[03:10] <jdub> xhaker: ends up mostly nuking the benefit of doing it that way, and adding complication to boot.
[03:10] <xhaker> so maybe the page woudn't look the same on breezy and on dapper
[03:11] <xhaker> jdub, what i mean.. is that the offline version should already have some stuff.. 
[03:11] <jdub> xhaker: i understand, but don't agree right now.
[03:11] <xhaker> like: "Trying to get updates"
[03:12] <xhaker> somehow it sound neat
[03:12] <jdub> xhaker: i would prefer to have a fully online page, and if we know that's not going to work, a usefully informative "how to get online" kind of thing.
[03:12] <xhaker> sounds easier f course
[03:12] <xhaker> of*
[03:13] <xhaker> you mean a fallback page?
[03:14] <jdub> fallback functionality, most likely not a page
[03:14] <jdub> (though it should be launched from a very basic page)
[03:15] <xhaker> networkmagic <- shouldn't it set firefox to offline mode if there is no connection?
[03:15] <jdub> yes
[03:15] <jdub> please write a firefox extension to do that
[03:15] <jdub> anyone
[03:16] <jdub> that would be enormously useful
[03:16] <Burglaptop> jdub: it is called epiphany and it is coming
[03:16] <jdub> you can do it in a basic way without n-m, too
[03:16] <xhaker> jdub, if there is a way to do this
[03:16] <ogra> firat make n-m ready, fix dialup and all other underlying technology ....
[03:16] <xhaker> then we just have to change the offline page in firefox
[03:16] <jdub> Burglaptop: don't be fatuous
[03:16] <ogra> sorry, but i dont see the point of an online startpage unless we have the basics right
[03:16] <xhaker> i mean.. divert it
[03:16] <jdub> ogra: no, there's a basic way to do it from firefox right now
[03:17] <ogra> jdub, a way that enables my mom to dial in without bein sudo ? 
[03:17] <jdub> ogra: people fix things because things get broken.
[03:17] <jdub> ogra: that's a totally different problem
[03:17] <ogra> n-m isnt ready since 3 releases
[03:17] <jdong> I'm playing with backporting Openoffice, and would like to know why the symlink for xt.jar  is so specific?
[03:18] <ogra> i dont see it fixed or even in main yet
[03:18] <jdub> we don't need n-m to make this firefox change
[03:18] <ogra> nope, thats ture 
[03:18] <ogra> *true
[03:18] <jdub> and dialup requiring sudo is a bug that can be fixed
[03:18] <ogra> but we need a sane basic infrastructure befor using an online page as default 
[03:18] <jdub> ogra: we don't
[03:18] <xhaker> jdub, how?
[03:19] <xhaker> how do we fix dialup needing sudo?
[03:19] <jdub> xhaker: if i knew that off the top of my head, i'd have fixed it by now; however, there is nothing about the infrastructure that requires it
[03:19] <mdke> if he knew, he'd have fixed it. He means that all bugs can be fixed.
[03:19] <xhaker> because i need my wifi app on sudoers list and i would like to know if that's your idea
[03:19] <jdub> the debian network system has been doing this for years
[03:19] <daniels> dialup doesn't require sudo
[03:20] <xhaker> oh
[03:20] <jdub> something's been mucked up along the way
[03:20] <daniels> it requires the user to be in the dialin group
[03:20] <ogra> if you want to do network magic, you'll need the magic ... we only have the network yet ...
[03:20] <jdub> if the bug exists at all
[03:20] <daniels> if permissions are fucked, kick scott to fix udev
[03:20] <jdub> (i strongly suspect that if this bug appears, it's due to something way up the stack just being stupid)
[03:20] <ogra> daniels, its broken ...
[03:20] <ogra> even in breezy ...
[03:21] <ogra> yes, i agree its fixable ...
[03:21] <jdub> ogra: the important thing to understand in all of this is that progress drives fixes.
[03:22] <daniels> here I was thinking that patches drove fixes
[03:22] <jdub> look no further than the modernisation of the X infrastructure for hundreds of examples of that.
[03:22] <ogra> jdub, i totally agree, but i dont see the ressources that are needed to do more than fixing (i.e. adding the magic potion to it)
[03:22] <xhaker> can someone give the url to the nifty build log page?
[03:22] <jdub> daniels: patches are fixes.
[03:22] <mdke> xhaker, people.u.c/~lamont
[03:22] <jdub> ogra: as i said above, magic not required.
[03:22] <daniels> jdub: 'progress drives fixes' is a bit too much 'we'll leverage our synergies for the benefit of all stakeholders' for me
[03:23] <daniels> x isn't modern these days, it just has a better build, er, paradigm
[03:23] <jdub> then you're not listening to it
[03:23] <daniels> it doesn't change the fact that large chunks of it are decrepit, and we're still working around massive historical accidents
[03:23] <xhaker> mdke, there was a differente interface before. :S
[03:23] <ogra> jdub, magic like: the system knows i'm a dialup user and offers me to dial in if i'm not ... or connects to a working wlan or...
[03:23] <daniels> (such as the fact that the device-independent part of the X server actually has huge dependencies on the device-dependent part of the X server, which we haven't been able to remove yet)
[03:24] <mdke> xhaker, well they've always been there afaik
[03:24] <jdub> ogra: that's not magic. it already exists. the only thing in the way is *fixes* - and the progress with n-m is *driving fixes*.
[03:24] <jdub> daniels: you're talking about technology detail, not progress.
[03:24] <xhaker> mdke, i've seen another page then.. was prettier
[03:24] <xhaker> lol
[03:24] <ogra> jdub, i'm just fearing that it will be a half brewed experience ...
[03:25] <jdub> daniels: fontconfig/xft/cairo drove fixes to the rendering architecture.
[03:25] <daniels> jdub: the fact still remains that creaking infrastructure is holding us back from delivering a kick-arse experience
[03:25] <daniels> jdub: yes, and xrender still isn't sensibly accelerated *anywhere*
[03:25] <jdub> daniels: and yet, it's being fixed because what we're doing demands it.
[03:25] <daniels> (i'm discounting xglx, because it's bullshit.)
[03:25] <jdub> daniels: don't muddy the point with irrelevant technical blather.
[03:26] <jdub> ogra: we have a lot of half-arses in here. it's okay - we're adding the other half as we go.
[03:26] <ogra> jdub, i hope so ... i really like the idea and would find it odd if it failed ...
[03:27] <ogra> ... just because we lauched it to early ...
[03:27] <aurynn_u> dynamic input driver loading would be cool, too :P
[03:27] <daniels> don't use the word 'hotplug' in any context to do with X, ever
[03:27] <maswan> so would wobbly windows
[03:28] <jdub> wow, janet jackson beat hurricane katrina
[03:28] <ogra> daniels, btw, i tried my ppc livecd and forgot to plug a mouse in ... the only thing i had lying around post boot was a little wacom tablet ... was a impressing experience to plug it in and just use the pen :)
[03:29] <aurynn_u> also, some sort of icon to tell me that I have a wlan adapter. that'd be good :P
[03:29] <jdub> http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist2005/
[03:29] <aurynn_u> ogra, same, but pressure tracking didn't quite work
[03:29] <aurynn_u> ogra,  was impressed that it worked right away
[03:29] <ogra> i just needed a mouse replacement :)
[03:29] <ogra> didnt draw with it ;)
[03:31] <daniels> jdub: the fucking loud clap of thunder outside is god's way of telling you you're wrong ;)
[03:31] <daniels> ogra: actually that's not my fault, that's the kernel
[03:31] <daniels> but thanks all the same
[03:31] <ogra> still impressive :)
[03:31] <jdub> daniels: blue skies.
[03:32] <aurynn_u> I really like the integration of ubuntu. It feels pretty cohesive
[03:33] <aurynn_u> really needs an icon or widget somewhere for Wifi presence and signal strength
[03:33] <xhaker> aurynn_u, http://gtkwifi.sf.net shhhhhhhh
[03:33] <xhaker> :P
[03:34] <daniels> jdub: 36 on friday
[03:34] <xhaker> update-notifier failed on i386 and successful on the other archs.. wierd..
[03:35] <mdke> xhaker, so why is gtkwifi not in Ubuntu?
[03:35] <xhaker> mdke, i' trying
[03:35] <mdke> looks nice from the homepage
[03:36] <xhaker> but.. the package on revu has no advocates
[03:36] <mdke> is it in debian?
[03:36] <aurynn_u> xhaker, why isn't it built in?
[03:36] <xhaker> seems that messing with sudoers in postinst is pretty evil
[03:36] <xhaker> so they say
[03:36] <ogra> mdke, there s some packaging effort going on afaik ...
[03:36] <xhaker> mdke, on revu already
[03:37] <mdke> xhaker, revu is ubuntu right, what about debian?
[03:37] <xhaker> only uploaded to revu yet
[03:37] <ogra> mdke, i think the guy who wrote it wrote it on and for ubuntu ... it comes from the forums ...
[03:37] <mdke> ogra, it is xhaker, no?
[03:38] <ogra> its a nice package fro the utnubu guys
[03:38] <ogra> xhaker, is yours ? 
[03:38] <xhaker> it was started brian cairns, and now i'm continuing the work
[03:38] <ogra> ah
[03:39] <aurynn_u> does it show a nice little icon like Airport on MacOS?
[03:39] <ogra> didnt sabdfl express intrest as well ? 
[03:39] <xhaker> so you can say it's mine, brian doesn't mind.. lol
[03:39] <xhaker> ogra, yes
[03:39] <mdke> well I installed it and it doesn't appear in the list of applets :(
[03:39] <ogra> ah, then i remember ...
[03:39] <xhaker> sabdfl, prompted me to upload it to revu or make seb do it
[03:39] <ogra> yup
[03:40] <xhaker> mdke, killall gnome-panel
[03:40] <sistpoty> but you should really get that sudoers-stuff sorted out, xhaker
[03:40] <mdke> hmm, i thought i didn't need to do that these days
[03:40] <xhaker> sistpoty, i know
[03:40] <sistpoty> ogra: maybe you have some clever idea how to do it right
[03:40] <xhaker> but i need suggestions
[03:40] <xhaker> i don't want to make a daemon
[03:40] <ogra> sistpoty, not at 3:40am in the morning ...
[03:40] <ogra> sistpoty, but i'll look at it :)
[03:41] <sistpoty> it's basically one script from user context calling another one which needs root rights... right xhaker?
[03:41] <xhaker> mdke, maybe there is some update-panel-applets command i need.. LOl
[03:42] <xhaker> sistpoty, right
[03:42] <mdke> xhaker, i see it now, it's in a category on its own >_<
[03:42] <mdke> it should be in System and Hardware I suppose
[03:42] <mdke> anyhow, works good
[03:42] <jdub> that gtkwifi stuff should just be integrated into network-admin
[03:42] <mdke> yeah that would be good
[03:42] <jdub> oh, it's an applet? hrm.
[03:42] <mdke> but an applet is cool too
[03:43] <aurynn_u> so, do I file bugs about the stuff that is sub-optimal?
[03:43] <jdub> well, n-m does that, and the dialogue should live in network-admin
[03:43] <mdke> aurynn_u, with Ubuntu, yeah sure
[03:44] <aurynn_u> mdke, yes, that's what I meant. There's a category for UI and integration improvements?
[03:44] <xhaker> what do you all think then.. do i ask upon install if the user wants the s-bit set for the file that needs root rights?
[03:44] <mdke> aurynn_u, not a category per se, but you can mark it "enh"
[03:44] <mdke> for enhancement
[03:45] <aurynn_u> xhaker, so long as it is obvious what you mean
[03:45] <xhaker> could it be done using a script instead of debconf?
[03:46] <xhaker> or debconf must be used for that kind of stuff?
[03:48] <sistpoty> I'd recommend using debconf... I'm not quite sure bout the "must" part though
[03:48] <aurynn_u> hmm. sloppy focus lags a little
[03:48] <xhaker> sistpoty, do you know how to do it? i never did
[03:49] <sistpoty> xhaker: I did it once, but that was quite some time ago. I started from the examples from debconf-doc, which were pretty self-explaining
[03:49] <xhaker> thanks
[03:49] <sistpoty> (at least for simple question/answer type)
[03:49] <xhaker> i'll check
[03:50] <xhaker> although if there are other ideas post them
[03:50] <xhaker> :P
[03:55] <fabbione> morning
[03:57] <ogra> oh, damned, time to go to bed ...
[03:57] <ogra> morning fabbione :)
[03:58] <ogra> heh
[04:00] <daniels> i am so mightily sick of typing out the phrase 'New upstream release.'
[04:00] <xhaker> brb
[04:00] <aurynn_u> truly, you need a template.
[04:01] <xhaker> just saw a video about gedit with a python plugin that would ease that
[04:01] <xhaker> but you don't use gedit anyway
[04:03] <ogra> daniels, cant you just run a dch script since all packages have the same version anyway ? 
[04:03] <aurynn_u> bugzilla SLOOOOW
[04:03] <daniels> ogra: no, they don't all have the same version
[04:04] <sistpoty> gn8 everyone
[04:04] <daniels> ogra: plus, half of them have different epochs (none, one or two)
[04:04] <ogra> ah, yes i see they only pretend to ...
[04:04] <daniels> i think the spread is probably about 50% none, 40% one, 10% two
[04:05] <ogra> even slight diff in the minor version
[04:06] <daniels> ogra: well, they're all from x11r7 rc4
[04:06] <daniels> but they have the same versions in the way that gnome modules have the same versions
[04:06] <daniels> as in, not
[04:07] <ogra> heh... odd
[04:07] <daniels> *shrug*
[04:07] <daniels> they're completely separate parts along completely separate lines of development
[04:07] <daniels> half of them will never be touched again
[04:08] <xhaker> doko, you read my pm?
[04:08] <ogra> xhaker, its 4am here ... i doubt he's awake
[04:09] <ogra> well, i'm neither ... night  ...
[04:09] <xhaker> 3am here
[04:10] <xhaker> nothing important to tell him tho
[04:10] <xhaker> just some circular dependencies on eclipse i know he is aware but hasn't fixed :/
[04:12] <daniels> if he's aware of it, a /msg probably won't help at all
[04:13] <xhaker> probably will
[04:13] <xhaker> because it's not just that
[04:13] <xhaker> it's also the mozilla-browser dependencie
[04:13] <daniels> also, if he hasn't responded to your message, public pokes won't help either
[04:20] <aurynn_u> well, that's one way to keep people from filing bugs..
[04:24] <fabbione> aurynn_u: kill them all inflicting exagerated amount of pain as world wide example for the newcomers?
[04:24] <aurynn_u> fabbione, make the bugtracker take 5 minutes to load the new bug page
[04:24] <fabbione> that's no pain..
[04:26] <daniels> jdub: http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR023.shtml
[04:27] <fabbione> how is going kid?
[04:28] <daniels> fabbione: good man, you?
[04:28] <daniels> fabbione: just got two more packages left before I can upload this bastard
[04:29] <fabbione> daniels: i am okish.. test building new kernels for warty/hoary/breezy
[04:29] <fabbione> daniels: does that include sparc drivers?
[04:29] <daniels> fabbione: sure does
[04:30] <fabbione> daniels: you rock young punk!
[04:30] <aurynn_u> every time someone must open the command line to do something, you have -failed!-
[04:30] <daniels> i sure do
[04:33] <Burglaptop> daniels: is 7.0 final not due tomorrow?
[04:36] <daniels> Burglaptop: it is
[04:36] <Amaranth> err
[04:36] <Amaranth> i've been hearing about lots of problems with RC4
[04:36] <daniels> Burglaptop: and, indeed, I wrote the release notes update today
[04:36] <daniels> Amaranth: such as?
[04:37] <Amaranth> daniels: nothing specific i can remember
[04:37] <Amaranth> daniels: and it was gentoo users so....
[04:37] <Amaranth> afaik they filed bugs in the fd.o bugzilla
[04:38] <daniels> radeon is known to have issues on >= r3xx and ppc
[04:38] <daniels> but otherwise it's pretty damn solid
[04:42] <aurynn_u> yie, that quickscanning package thing bogs down the page load
[04:49] <aurynn_u> this is scarily slow.
[04:57] <Burglaptop> daniels: my precious inbox!!!!
[04:59] <daniels> Burglaptop: eh, I get a jennifer hit as well as the dapper-changes.  so, get proper filtering.
[05:00] <Burglaptop> I was joking more than anything
[05:01] <fabbione> daniels: EXA! .. EXA is the future!
[05:02] <ryanpg> yikes, guess I showed up at an odd time
[05:02] <daniels> note future, not present :P
[05:07] <aurynn_u> the package description for gcombust is completely worthless if I'm any sort of neophyte user
[05:12] <ryanpg> aurynn_u, "GTK+ based CD mastering and burning program" ?
[05:13] <aurynn_u> Mine might be outdated, I have
[05:13] <aurynn_u> A frontend for mkisofs/mkhybrid/cdda2wav/cdrecord/cdlabelgen
[05:13] <ryanpg> aurynn_u, the one I quoted is from dapper
[05:13] <aurynn_u> ah, I'm on breezy
[05:14] <ryanpg> well rejoice it appears to be getting better :)
[05:18] <aurynn_u> and the web interface is painfully slow for that
[05:29] <jdub> holy crap it's an X upload
[05:29] <daniels> a couple of
[05:30] <StevenK> Does that mean X11R7 is out? Most of the versions are 1.0.0
[05:31] <fabbione> GO DANIELS!
[05:31] <daniels> StevenK: it's painfully close
[05:32] <ryanpg> daniels, I'm seeing X cpu usage over 20% while doing nothing (r200 dapper, p4 2.8ghz, exa and no xcompmgr) should I file a bug?
[05:32] <StevenK> Aren't X uploads wonderful? You'd think daniels was trying to mailbomb -changes or something.
[05:32] <daniels> StevenK: the only thing left to do before we can roll the tarballs is update the credits list
[05:32] <fabbione> ryanpg: disable EXA in the first place
[05:32] <daniels> ryanpg: yeah, I guess try disabling exa before, but a bug would probably be useful regardless
[05:33] <ryanpg> ok, I'll try XAA, maybe I'll wait till this big batch of updates is installed though
[05:33] <fabbione> daniels: btw.. if you get to upload 7.0 final, mind to remove me as maintainer of these a few billions mini-pkgs i did just for breezy?
[05:34] <daniels> fabbione: will do
[05:34] <fabbione> daniels: thanks mate
[05:34] <daniels> i live to give
[05:34] <fabbione> no comments on that
[05:35] <StevenK> daniels: Does this mean imake is marked for death?
[05:35] <StevenK> From the archive, I mean.
[05:37] <daniels> StevenK: no, some external apps still use it
[05:37] <daniels> so people (*cough*doko*cough*) hounded me incessantly and bitched until I put a working imake and xmkmf in the archive
[05:37] <StevenK> Heh.
[05:37] <StevenK> I had to find it again to build wnn6-sdk.
[05:37] <daniels> however, 'are you removing it from the archive?' and 'do you care in the least about it' are markedly different questions
[05:38] <StevenK> Of course.
[05:40] <ryanpg> daniels, sorry to be a distraction but, does xserver-xorg-driver-ati 1:6.5.7.2-0ubuntu1 include the recent "radeon memory map" patch?
[05:41] <daniels> ryanpg: not 0ubuntu1, no
[05:41] <daniels> ryanpg: he's still working on it and should have a new revision tomorrow or so
[05:41] <daniels> when that drops, I'll put it in
[05:42] <ryanpg> cool, sounds like some good stuff
[05:47] <maswan> hmm.. almost half a TB of flight-2 delivered from over here
[05:58] <infinity> daniels : Missing build-deps for xlsatoms, xkill, xdriinfo, xrgb, xlsclients, xauth, x11perf, sessreg... So far.
[05:58] <daniels> i'm on it
[05:59] <daniels> inasmuch as the logs are getting uploaded, anyway
[05:59] <infinity> Yeah, my INBOX is a bit faster than the log syncing.
[05:59] <daniels> bouncing failures to daniel@fb.o would be appreciated
[06:01] <jdub> elmo, Znarl: ping
[06:01] <infinity> They're off.
[06:03] <daniels> most of it's from the shuffling of dependencies into Requires.private in the .pc files
[06:04] <daniels> so you can give back with a pretty broad brush once new libs I've uploaded have been accepted
[06:04] <infinity> Alright, give me a poke when you think it's time, and I'll mass-give-back again.
[06:04] <infinity> It's that sort of day anyway.
[06:06] <daniels> ta
[06:15] <daniels> that and half of the libxmu-dev build-deps seem to have spontaneously flipped to libxmuu-dev.  woo.
[06:19] <fabbione> daniels: you also uploaded some stuff twice :)
[06:19] <daniels> yeah
[06:19] <daniels> your name's coming off in the 7.0 final uploads, btw
[06:19] <fabbione> uh?
[06:19] <daniels> reason is that I just reflexively build with -S -sa these days
[06:19] <daniels> so I did that, and then realised, and thought katie still rejected it
[06:19] <daniels> apparently she's nicer about it these days
[06:19] <fabbione> ahh ok
[06:19] <daniels> so the second wave all got bounced
[06:20] <daniels> and yeah, I'm going to take you out of the maintainer field for those apps in 7.0 final
[06:20] <daniels> that was what you wanted, yeah?
[06:20] <fabbione> yup
[06:20] <daniels> score
[06:20] <fabbione> i misread for a second :)
[06:35] <daniels> infinity: also, could you please nfu xserver-xorg-driver-sun{bw2,cg14,cg3,cg6,ffb} on all bar sparc
[06:36] <Amaranth> err, if 7.0 is officially released tomorrow isn't the code now the same as the code that'll be released tomorrow?
[06:36] <daniels> Amaranth: yes
[06:37] <Amaranth> so shouldn't this upload be 7.0 final?
[06:39] <Amaranth> that reminds me... did all that fancy exa and render accel stuff get into 7.0 for a radeon 9200?
[06:39] <Amaranth> i wouldn't know where to start looking
[06:39] <aurynn_u> 9200 is an 8500
[06:39] <daniels> Amaranth: yes
[06:39] <Amaranth> w00tage
[06:39] <daniels> aurynn_u: not really
[06:39] <Amaranth> now i just need dapper to boot... :)
[06:40] <daniels> Mithrandir: if you could make PKG_CHECK_MODULES print out *why* it's failing (e.g. 'missing Requires xau from libx11'), I'd love you for at least seven minutes
[06:40] <Amaranth> seven? wow, must be desperate
[06:43] <daniels> i am
[07:07] <lamont> daniels: xserver-xorg-driver-sis_1:0.8.1.1-0ubuntu1 and libxaw_2:0.99.3-0ubuntu1 both needed -ffunction-section love
[07:07] <lamont> dunno if libxaw has the fix or not.
[07:07] <lamont> ah, cool. libxaw does have it
[07:08] <lamont> but driver-sis needs love
[07:08] <daniels> -sis????
[07:08] <daniels> how broken is hppa man
[07:12] <infinity> lamont : You were supposed to be in bed.  If I'd known you were awake, I would have asked you for those hppa ABI files...
[07:14] <daniels> infinity: you can try giving back when 1.0.0-0ubuntu2 of both libx11(-dev) and libxmu(u-dev) hit the archive
[07:24] <pitti> Good morning
[07:25] <crimsun> hi pitti 
[07:27] <fabbione> hi pitti
[08:38] <pitti> elmo: please remove the mozilla-firefox-locale-ja source and binary from dapper, it's superseded by mozilla-firefox-locale-all
[09:00] <pappan> got disconnected
[09:06] <sivang> morning all
[09:07] <pappan> morning sivang
[09:07] <sivang> hey pappan , what are you up to?
[09:09] <pappan> sivang: nm
[09:09] <pappan> today is bug day (hug day ;) ) .. so hoping i can contribute something :)
[09:10] <sivang> pappan: ofcourse you can! Just drop by #ubuntu-bugs and I am sure you'll find something to help with.
[09:44] <siretart> morning
[09:46] <Mez> morning siretart, hows things ?
[09:49] <siretart> Mez: generally okay, currently fighting with transcode, which is dlopen in strange ways.. how are you?
[09:50] <Mez> I'm fine
[09:50] <Mez> tired.
[09:50] <Mez> Just moved house ... then gone to work for a night shift, now waiting for my bed to be delivered
[09:50] <Mez> but good news! I have internet access
[09:51] <Mez> so I can actually DO stuff now
[09:51] <siretart> Mez: excellent! :)
[09:51] <Mez> so, any chance of getting me up to speed with whats going on i Ubuntu World (and if theres any changes to upload process/anything similar)
[09:53] <Mez> seeing as I dont really have time to read through the 10,000 emails I had while away
[09:53] <Mez> (since UBZ)
[09:54] <Mez> brb
[09:59] <Mez> back :D
[10:23] <seb128> infinity, lamont: please give a retry to contacts/i386
[10:51] <paines> hi
[11:03] <dholbach> hellas
[11:32] <paines> I want to test apt-build for optimizing and installing some packages. but it is failing during build. anyone have experience with apt-build ?
[11:42] <ogra> mvo, power-manager ? 
[11:43] <mvo> ogra: yes ...
[11:44] <ogra> elmo, could you please wipe power-manager from dapper ? it was a helper for the first gnome-power-manager releases and is  not used by anything anymore, the functionallity is moved into gnome-power-manager
[11:44] <ogra> mvo, sorry, i forgot abut that one, it should disappear
[11:45] <mvo> ogra: ah, ok. didn't knew that
[11:45] <ogra> yes, thats why i said sorry ...
[11:45] <mvo> np
[11:51] <StevenK> lamont, infinity: Can one of you please look at weddell? It failed my xemacs21 build due to ENOSPC, so I suspect other builds have also failed.
[11:53] <Mez> wb dholbach 
[11:54] <dholbach> hi Mez 
[12:01] <infinity> 9.1G free.
[12:01] <infinity> StevenK : Dear god, how big was the xemacs build?
[12:02] <infinity> Oh, nevermind, it failed it on dowload.  Neat.
[12:02] <infinity> May have been during livefs building.
[12:03] <StevenK> infinity: You'll just ask it nicely to try again?
[12:03] <StevenK> It required 260Mb on an amd64 and 180Mb on i386.
[12:04] <infinity> Yeah, nothing.  weddell was just unpleasant to you at that very moment.
[12:04] <ogra> cant you just remove the content and make the package provide a link on gvim ? 
[12:05] <infinity> s/gvim/nvi/
[12:05] <infinity> Then I can include the new xemacs in initramfs.
[12:05] <ogra> nvi requires x ?
[12:05] <infinity> No.
[12:05] <mvo> ed *cough*
[12:05] <ogra> yay
[12:05] <infinity> I'd rather use a tiny magnet than ed.
[12:06] <dholbach> hahaha
[12:30] <doko> infinity: can you intrepret the ldd failure on amd64 (firefox build log)?
[12:31] <infinity> doko : I haven't had a chance to dig deeply.  I know I can't reproduce it outside sbuild, which sucks.
[12:31] <ogra> did you ask lamont ? probably he has an idea ...
[12:31] <infinity> doko : Hrm, wait.  When I tried to reproduce it, I didn't have the build-deps installed.  Maybe that tickles it.
[12:32] <infinity> ogra : Possibly, but it's something I've never seen before, so I'll bet he hasn't either.
[12:32] <ogra> hmm
[12:36] <doko> mvo: did you reproduce13308 on amd64 or i386?
[12:37] <mvo> doko: on amd64 I think, but I haven't seen it in a long time
[12:37] <doko> mvo: just reconfirmed. let the browser run for two or three days with 10 or more tabs open ...
[12:49] <infinity> Meh, no, can't reproduce it without sbuild.  This should be FUN.
[12:50] <StevenK> What the heck does sbuild do differently?
[12:50] <infinity> Oh, wait.  Dies fine under fakeroot.  Silly me.
[12:51] <StevenK> Wheee.
[12:54] <infinity> fakeroot dh_shlibdeps     # fails
[12:54] <infinity> LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libfakeroot.so.0 fakeroot dh_shlibdeps  # succeeds
[12:55] <infinity> I hate fakeroot so friggin' much.
[12:55] <infinity> doko ^^^
[12:56] <infinity> doko : Could this somehow relate to the (as yet unsycned) changelog entry for fakeroot 1.5.6 about "Change soname to avoid ldconfig cruft"
[12:58] <doko> looking at fakeroot ...
[01:00] <StevenK> /build/buildd/xemacs21-21.4.18/src/xemacs -batch ....
[01:00] <StevenK> temacs can only be run in -batch mode.
[01:01] <infinity> Be nice... ia64 tries.
[01:01] <infinity> It just fails.
[01:01] <StevenK> Well, now my toe hurts. :-P
[01:01] <StevenK> Big bloody heavy noisy hot things.
[01:03] <doko> infinity: the bug report is very informative :-/
[01:03] <infinity> doko : I noticed.
[01:08] <jdub> HA HA HA HA HA HA
[01:08] <jdub> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/clique
[01:08] <infinity> I can't fathom why it works with an LD_PRELOAD when that precise PRELOAD is supposed to be done by fakeroot itself anyway.
[01:08] <doko> infinity: I don't see why this should be related
[01:10] <doko> infinity: but maybe we can stop merging fakeroot, when gcc-opt leaves alone the -m64/-m32 invocations ...
[01:10] <doko> a merge can't hurt
[01:12] <infinity> Oh, are we doing goofy things to fakeroot to work around gcc-opt being goofy?
[01:13] <infinity> jdub : That's brilliant.
[01:14] <infinity> doko : Oh, I'm doing goofy things.  Right. :)
[01:15] <infinity> doko : Shall I merge, or will you?
[01:15] <doko> infinity: if you want to ...
[01:16] <infinity> May as well.  I don't have high hopes for it magically fixing this, but on the other hand, I'm all for lazy debugging in the form of "try new upstream first!!"
[01:18] <mvo> jdub: haha, awesome
[01:35] <pitti> infinity: just for the sake of planning, shall we do the PHP stuff today or tomorrow? or wait until after xmas?
[01:36] <infinity> pitti : The distro meeting is in about 25 hours or so, right?
[01:37] <pitti> infinity: yes
[01:37] <infinity> pitti : I'll have uploads before that, if you want us to do the release right after.
[01:37] <infinity> pitti : (I'm on a plane at some point tomorrow, going up north for Christmas, but will be online in the evening for the meeting and for this)
[01:38] <pitti> infinity: that would be great
[01:43] <StevenK> infinity: How far north?
[01:43] <infinity> Cairns.
[01:45] <StevenK> I thought you swore off Cairns.
[01:45] <freeflying_> seb128:  ping
[01:46] <infinity> I did, but Zofia's family didn't.
[01:46] <infinity> They kinda, y'know, live there.
[01:47] <StevenK> Thankfully my mother is out of the country, so I can have a slightly less painful Christmas this year.
[02:10] <seb128> freeflying_: pong
[02:11] <freeflying_> seb128:  will ubuntu use ttf-arphic-uming as default chinese font in dapper
[02:12] <freeflying_> seb128: will you have a look on this :https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTtfarphicuming
[02:13] <seb128> freeflying_: I've no idea, I don't anything about chinese, I don't know the font and I don't to main promotion
[02:14] <janimo> freeflying_, you could try asking in #ubuntu-desktop
[02:14] <freeflying_> seb128:  then who can help me on this 
[02:15] <seb128> freeflying_: mail the ubuntu-devel list maube
[02:15] <seb128> maybe
[02:16] <freeflying_> seb128: thx
[02:17] <seb128> np
[02:19] <ogra> freeflying_, see the UbuntuMainInclusionQueue page, it has a description of the process at the top ...
[02:20] <freeflying_> ogra: thx
[02:24] <freeflying_> ogra: it's have been approved , and have been add to kubuntu as default chinese fonts ,but not in ubuntu
[02:25] <seb128> freeflying_: "default chinese fonts"? what is that? to fontconfig list?
[02:25] <ogra> its in the "not ready to promote section"
[02:26] <ogra> so something is missing or the seeds arent changed yet etc ...
[02:27] <freeflying_> seb128:  we want to use these two  replace ttf-arphic-gbsn00lp ,etc 
[02:27] <seb128> freeflying_: right, but you do set "it's the font to use for chinese"?
[02:27] <seb128> if that's a fontconfig priority change that will do the trick for GNOME too
[02:28] <freeflying_> seb128: they are just chinese fonts 
[02:28] <seb128> right but you said you add them as default chinese fonts
[02:28] <seb128> what did you do to set them as default?
[02:30] <freeflying_> seb128: they have their own conf ,and can be used by fontconfig in /etc/fonts/conf.d/
[02:31] <ogra> freeflying_, fontconfig manages the default thats used ... if you want to make it the default, that requires a change to fontconfig ...
[02:32] <ogra> thats why they are still stuck in univers i guess .... alongside with a missing seed change 
[02:33] <freeflying_> ogra: that's means we need changes in fontconfig?
[02:33] <ogra> probably ...
[02:34] <ogra> but what seb128 said is valid, so you eed to change the system, not only the font to change a default
[02:34] <ogra> s/eed/need/
[02:34] <freeflying_> ogra: then it may not be changed?
[02:35] <ogra> sure it may, you just need to make the right changes ...
[02:35] <ogra> what i'm missing is point 1 from the UbuntuMainInclusionQueue ....
[02:36] <ogra> there was no discussion about it, probably the majority of asian font users disagrees or something, they should get a chance to speak up about it ...
[02:37] <ogra> changing a default font affects many users, so it should be discussed in public before the change happens
[02:37] <zul> heylo
[02:37] <ogra> the fontconfig change will be trivial i think
[02:38] <freeflying_> ogra: shall we have a vote for this ?
[02:38] <ogra> freeflying_, just a discussion as advised in the process ...
[02:39] <ogra> in fact that should have taken place before the main inclusion report was even written :)
[02:39] <freeflying_> ogra: then , what shall i do for this 
[02:40] <ogra> mail the ML as advised and start a discussion ... if nobody objects, find out what to do to change the default in fontconbfig and submit a patch
[02:41] <infinity> doko : Meh.  New fakeroot didn't help.  If this can't be reproduced outside the DC, I'll have to look at it later.
[02:42] <doko> :-(
[02:47] <ogra> still hunting the firefox bug ? 
[02:49] <ogra> freeflying_, oh
[02:49] <ogra> freeflying_, thats blocking it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportXdelta
[02:52] <ogra> freeflying_, so you have to make sure the bug in xdelta is fixed before it can even enter main ...
[02:52] <ogra> heh, what a funny rationale "Looks generally useful." 
[02:53] <freeflying_> ogra: actually these two package needn't depent on xdelta 
[02:54] <ogra> so fix the dependency https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTtfarphicuming says it depends on it 
[02:55] <ogra> as well as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTtfarphicukai
[02:55] <infinity> doko : Oh, hrm.  I wasn't looking closely enough.  There are two libfakeroot-sys.so libs...
[02:55] <freeflying_> ogra:  ok 
[02:56] <ogra> and make sure its really not needed....
[02:56] <infinity> doko : The one LD_PRELOADED by fakeroot is /usr/lib/libfakeroot/libfakeroot-sysv.so .... The one I was preloading (and making stuff magically work) was /usr/lib/libfakeroot-sysv.so
[02:56] <freeflying_> ogra: y
[02:56] <infinity> doko : Two very different libs, from the looks of things.
[02:57] <ogra> freeflying_, the xdelta page talks about a build dependency, not about a dependency
[03:00] <pitti> freeflying_, ogra: I wrote a main inclusion report about xdelta and rejected  it
[03:01] <pitti> freeflying_: the packages shuold be redone without binary patches (uuencode for my sake, or whatever)
[03:01] <ogra> pitti, freeflying_ thinks xdelta isnt needed, if thats ture, the font packages need fixing
[03:01] <pitti> ogra: I suspect that they ship some font changes as binary patch, so they don't?
[03:02] <pitti> if so, we should just change the orig.tar.gz, that's easiest probably
[03:02] <ogra> *shudder*
[03:02] <ogra> is there a possibility we could get debian to do that ? 
[03:03] <ogra> to save is headaches ...
[03:03] <ogra> s/is/us/
[03:05] <mvo> Riddell: is kmerlin removed permanently?
[03:06] <Riddell> mvo: no idea, what is it?
[03:06] <mvo> Riddell: some IM thing, the name sounded like you might know aobut it 
[03:07] <Riddell> it's not in debian testing or unstable, I'd guess it's obsolete
[03:08] <mvo> Riddell: thanks
[03:09] <infinity> doko : When telling Clint about the problem, the exact response was "that's bizarre"
[03:09] <infinity> doko : This might take some back and forth.
[03:10] <doko> infinity: but it's only seen on amd64?
[03:11] <seb128> elmo: gnome-doc-utils verbiste netkit-ftp syncs please 
[03:15] <infinity> doko : Yes.
[03:18] <infinity> doko : I'm goint to poke it with a rather ugly stick a bit later, but for the next 24+ hours, assume I'm nowehere near firefox/amd64.  Too many other tasks, and that one's making my head bleed.
[03:19] <seb128> speaking about firefox it's still broken
[03:19] <ogra> yup
[03:19] <seb128> epiphany-browser doesn't build with current package on i386
[03:19] <jbailey> seb128: Eh?  totem seems installable now.  Different issue?
[03:19] <seb128> which breaks the dbus transition
[03:19] <seb128> jbailey: epiphany is not ...
[03:19] <doko> infinity: that's ok, need it for OOo which doesn't build on amd64 anyway :-)
[03:19] <jbailey> seb128: YEah, I notied that.  Had assumed we were still catching up. =)
[03:21] <seb128> jbailey: no, it refuses to build, main has been transition out of it
[03:21] <jbailey> Ah.  Okay.
[03:21] <jbailey> It was in my list of things to ask you about tomorrow. =)
[03:22] <Q-FUNK> I'm just wondering, is there a page on the wiki that lists the current version of the win32 ports found in the daily builds of the live cd?
[03:22] <xhaker> anyone know what's the module for usb cdrom drives?
[03:22] <xhaker> if that even exists
[03:22] <seb128> jbailey: I've no dbus atm
[03:22] <zakame> hm aren't usb cdroms using some scsi/atapi magic?
[03:23] <seb128> jbailey: I had to pick my browser or dbus, easy choice :p
[03:23] <mjr> yah, I think it's the SCSI cdrom driver, whatever that was called
[03:23] <xhaker> my laptop dvd drive is not detected, it's usb.. there is no /dev/hdc as it used to be.. kernel or udev
[03:24] <ogra> Q-FUNK, http://www.theopencd.org/
[03:24] <jbailey> seb128: =)
[03:25] <xhaker> good.. the kernel has sr_mod loaded
[03:25] <Q-FUNK> ogra: I know that the live Cd is a shared project with them.  that doesn't answer my question :)
[03:25] <ogra> if there is a list, its on that page
[03:26] <xhaker> incase you didn't noticed. there are problems with the preinst of the new locales package
[03:26] <seb128> what?
[03:26] <Q-FUNK> ogra: not quite.  what goes on the ubuntu CD is a subset of that.  also, unless I'm mistaken, there are no daily builds of that.
[03:27] <seb128> xhaker: like http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2005-December/000026.html ?
[03:27] <seb128> xhaker: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2005-December/000043.html I mean
[03:28] <xhaker> i read that yesterday
[03:28] <xhaker> didn't understood right, not even know
[03:29] <xhaker> now*
[03:29] <xhaker> silly
[03:29] <ogra> Q-FUNK, no idea ... i only know that this is the only ressource ...
[03:31] <jdub> eh, hmm
[03:31] <jdub> small help required
[03:31] <ogra> jdub, this is no support channel :P
[03:31] <jdub> which section of the world have i missed in this list:
[03:31] <ogra> *giggles insanely*
[03:31] <jdub> western europe
[03:31] <jdub> eastern europe
[03:31] <jdub> asia
[03:31] <jdub> north america
[03:31] <jdub> south america
[03:31] <jdub> africa
[03:31] <jdub> middle east
[03:32] <jdub> australasia
[03:32] <Q-FUNK> any particular reason for dividing east/west europe?
[03:33] <jdub> yeah, those are probably more likely as tour destinations
[03:33] <Q-FUNK> might as well add northern europe.
[03:33] <xhaker> i could get some more.. scandinavia (northern europe, sweden, norway)
[03:33] <xhaker> Q-FUNK, true
[03:34] <jdub> you wouldn't regard those as western europe?
[03:34] <ogra> i would
[03:34] <Q-FUNK> there is a far bigger division between northern europe and continetal europe than there is between east and west, nowadays.
[03:34] <xhaker> jdub, i don't think they're in that group
[03:34] <jdub> i'd cover those in a western europe tour...
[03:34] <jdub> if that's the case, i'll just put 'europe'
[03:34] <xhaker> jdub, make sure you tour in Portugal ;)
[03:35] <jdub> * europe
[03:35] <Q-FUNK> as far as planning a tour in different phases go, I'd probably do the batlics (or at least estonia) at the same time as northern europe / scandinavia.
[03:35] <jdub> * middle east
[03:35] <jdub> * africa
[03:35] <jdub> * north america
[03:35] <jdub> * south america
[03:35] <jdub> * asia
[03:35] <jdub> * australasia
[03:36] <xhaker> australasia?
[03:36] <Q-FUNK> oceania
[03:36] <xhaker> never heard that term
[03:36] <jdub> xhaker: do you know the term oceania?
[03:37] <ogra> atlantis !
[03:37] <xhaker> i do
[03:37] <xhaker> australia too
[03:37] <jdub> 01:35 < Q-FUNK> as far as planning a tour in different phases go, I'd probably do the batlics (or at least estonia) at the same time as northern europe / scandinavia.
[03:37] <xhaker> but australasia looks like a mix between australia and asia
[03:37] <jdub> ogra: i was thinking of putting a joke one in, but i'm actually really interested in what the proper answers are ;-)
[03:37] <jdub> ogra: thought putting antarctica in would be good
[03:38] <jdub> xhaker: australasia basically means .au and .nz
[03:38] <Q-FUNK> jdub:  that second list makes sense.  then again, asia is downright huge.  might wanna ask people from the -stans, china and countries along the silk road how they would subdivide this.
[03:38] <jdub> i'll switch to oceania, which is more likely for a tour anyway
[03:38] <ogra> jdub, "european union" ? and "rest of europe" ?
[03:38] <Treenaks> ogra: 'us' and 'them' ?
[03:38] <jdub> ogra: troll! ;)
[03:38] <ogra> yeah, probably with a better wording ...
[03:39] <jdub> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/196
[03:39] <ogra> coming soon ? 
[03:40] <jdub> oh
[03:40] <ogra> at least its freely licensed :)
[03:40] <jdub> because it's not published
[03:40] <Q-FUNK> heh
[03:40] <jdub> ah, bugger it, may as well put it live
[03:40] <madduck> sabdfl: enjoy... http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/clique
[03:40] <madduck> :)
[03:43] <Q-FUNK> :-D
[03:43] <jdub> alright, published
[03:43] <jdub> vote your pants off
[03:45] <ogra> gah, i can onl vote for one ...
[03:45] <ogra> *onyl
[03:45] <ogra> grr
[03:45] <ogra> *only
[03:50] <aigarius> jdub, if the event is free software related, I can help organise it in Latvia and I also have contacts with rest of baltics
[03:53] <Q-FUNK> ditto here for estonia/finland.
[03:56] <madduck> and switzerland
[03:56] <pitti> doko: please read u-d-a, kthxbye :)
[03:57] <Q-FUNK> madduck: ireland?
[03:58] <madduck> Q-FUNK: nope. i told you i am not moving. nothing will make me move away from .ch
[03:59] <Q-FUNK> madduck: ah, so you are only registered for your PhD there?
[04:04] <xhaker> lol
[04:09] <madduck> Q-FUNK: yes. i'll write remotely. once my hands are cured.
[04:10] <coleSLAW> Hello.  jbailey wants to tell you all that he is without power for at least the next two hours.
[04:10] <coleSLAW> He would like to have told you himself, but this is difficult to do over IRC without electricity.
[04:12] <Q-FUNK> sabdfl: in Finland, impi has a whole other meaning. release a distro named ImpiLinux here and I guarantee you a lineup of sugar daddies. ;)
[04:15] <mvo> infinity: would it be possible to get a not-quite-so-up2date glib (2.8.x) on a ppc porting machine to test if mono builds with that ? 
[04:17] <koe1> Any Ubuntu developper in here who works on Xorg?
[04:21] <pitti> mvo: try to build it in davis' breezy dchroot?
[04:28] <slomo> pitti, (mvo): not a good idea... it definitly works on breezy, for a good test it would be better to only downgrade glib but not glibc, etc
[04:48] <mvo> infinity: ping?
[05:13] <Riddell> Kamion: I just tried to make a kubuntu install CD and it seemed to run fine but it hasn't been put in the archives, have I missed something?
[05:15] <Riddell> bah, he ran away
[05:16] <ogra> Riddell, he's on holiday
[05:18] <Riddell> ogra: guys like kamion don't do holidays :)
[05:18] <ogra> i know, but he tries to pretend to :)
[05:19] <ogra> Riddell, you got access to CDbuilds ? 
[05:20] <Riddell> ogra: yes
[05:20] <ogra> even for edubuntu ?
[05:21] <Riddell> ogra: yes, same machine, it's still all new to me
[05:22] <ogra> ok, at least i know whom to poke about it :)
[05:22] <Riddell> sure, I can always try :)
[05:22] <ogra> i'll have to go the same path as well one day ...
[05:38] <aurynn_u> Impressive.
[05:38] <aurynn_u> Samba works without me having to do anything.
[06:04] <aurynn_u> good: Samba works flawlessly.
[06:04] <aurynn_u> Bad: how the fuck do I get mp3 support working?
[06:05] <greenpenguin13> automatix
[06:05] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, this is not a support channel, but install gstreamer0.8-plugins-multiverse
[06:05] <HiddenWolf> greenpenguin13, automatix is ugly stuff.
[06:05] <aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, I know it's not a support channel
[06:05] <greenpenguin13> HiddenWolf: how come?
[06:05] <aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, I'm telling you "This is non-intuitive and stupid. Fix it."
[06:06] <dholbach> gstreamer0.8-mad rather
[06:06] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, mp3 is not free, the choice here is between funding development for a year or paying for a license to distribute mp3-codecs
[06:06] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, filing a bug won't change that.
[06:06] <aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, I understand that
[06:06] <aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, but why isn't it obvious how to do it?
[06:06] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, it will be for 6.04.
[06:07] <aurynn_u> "Ah, you are trying to play an mp3. You need to do X to do that."
[06:07] <dholbach> aurynn_u: it's in the Ubuntu Guide
[06:07] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, there is a specification that will implement exactly that.
[06:07] <Pygi> aurynn_u: because just "making it obvious" requires payment to the MP3 licence holders
[06:07] <aurynn_u> dholbach, is it on my screen when I try to play an mp3? does totem automatically try to acquire the right mp3?
[06:07] <dholbach> aurynn_u: and please choose your words more carefully. "Fix it." is nothing anybody of us wants to be told.
[06:07] <aurynn_u> dholbach, if not, you fucked up.
[06:07] <Pygi> hey, calm down
[06:07] <aurynn_u> :)
[06:07] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, code of conduct
[06:08] <Pygi> it's not like developers like to be pushed around 
[06:08] <Pygi> so stop it
[06:08] <coleSLAW> jbailey: Ah, you''re back.
[06:08] <dholbach> hey coleSLAW 
[06:09] <jbailey> coleSLAW: Yup
[06:09] <aurynn_u> Pygi, certain assumptions are made that shouldn't be made. "It's in the guide" or "You just need to do <non-trivial hard thing>" are quite clearly failures, and need to be pointed out
[06:09] <jbailey> coleSLAW: Of course, my box seems to have eaten udev in the power failure.
[06:09] <jbailey> coleSLAW: So I'm now trying to figure out how to get it working again.
[06:09] <HiddenWolf> aurynn_u, i just told you that this is being adressed. twice.
[06:09] <Pygi> aurynn_u: actually, don't use guide. it's broken and most things will just cause a headache ;)
[06:09] <aurynn_u> (which is why I've been filing bugs about non-optimal behaviour)
[06:09] <aurynn_u> HiddenWolf, which is good! I approve.
[06:10] <aurynn_u> and I am most impressed with Samba
[06:10] <Pygi> aurynn_u: filling a bug report won't change nothing. 
[06:10] <Hieronymus> HiddenWolf: you don't need multiverse for mp3 playback
[06:10] <Pygi> aurynn_u: the mp3 support will never be avaible out-of-the-box
[06:10] <aurynn_u> Pygi, it ought to ask me if I want to download the codec for it
[06:10] <ogra> guys, can you please take that discussion elsewhere ? #ubuntu-offtopic or something ? 
[06:11] <Pygi> ogra:k, I just won't talk
[06:11] <jbailey> ogra: Nah, power's back.
[06:11] <aurynn_u> I might point out this is wholly on-topic, though my issue was addressed by HiddenWolf 
[06:11] <aurynn_u> (in that this behaviour has been noted and is being fixed)
[06:11] <ogra> jbailey, ah, thought you took the interim solution :)
[06:12] <ogra> aurynn_u, this channel is where we coordiante our work, in case you dont have a patch to submit, take it somewhere else ... it wont help you to rant about stuff we cant do anything about in here ...
[06:13] <aurynn_u> ogra, my ranting includes diatribes against X11, heh. I'm not ranting or trolling. I'm filing bugs and pointing out flaws and failures in the integration
[06:13] <coleSLAW> jbailey: Excellent.  My work here is done.
[06:13] <fabbione> aurynn_u: filing bugs is enough. that's enough said.
[06:14] <fabbione> attempting escalation in here is useless
[06:16] <aurynn_u> ooh, there's a bug
[06:17] <lamont> daniels: it's the ld -r stuff that breaks things...
[07:19] <\sh> elmo: please sync gaphor from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes, thx
[07:41] <LaserJock> elmo: ping?
[07:43] <LaserJock> elmo: nm, I will email you.
[07:46] <\sh_away> elmo: please sync libaqbanking from unstable, dropping ubuntu changes thx
[08:28] <siretart> lamont: whats the problem with transcode? what mistake did I do this time? ;)
[08:29] <crimsun> 0ubuntu2 built fine, unless you're referring to ia64
[08:29] <mdke> Riddell, how did you get on with *-docs today?
[08:30] <siretart> I hope he doesn't want to have transcode built on hppa ;)
[08:50] <mdke> JaneW, ping?
[08:53] <mdke> or maybe ogra 
[09:52] <Surak> hello
[09:53] <Pygi> hi
[09:53] <Surak> I have an issue with a modem on breezy (not for the -users channel). The sl-modem-source locks every machine I run it into. 
[09:54] <Surak> not even alt-sysrq (hi crimsun :-) )
[09:56] <Surak> does this package have an maintainer in ubuntu? or is it directly imported from debian?
[09:56] <dholbach> have a nice evening
[09:56] <Surak> night daniel
[09:56] <Pygi> you to dholbach
[09:56] <crimsun> Surak: I believe I touched it last, but it doesn't have a maintainer per se
[09:58] <Surak> crimsun: get this modem working on ubuntu is quite important for me. How can I help making it work?
[09:58] <daniels> Surak: see if newer upstream versions fix it, etc, etc
[09:58] <daniels> Surak: basically, 'find a solution'
[09:59] <Surak> daniels: I'm not a programmer. I can help with equipment, testing, but unfortunately not with code.
[09:59] <crimsun> Surak: nothing in -7 appears to resolve it; you should try upstream's 2.9.10 which we cannot distribute
[10:00] <daniels> Surak: in that case, I'm afraid this is off-topic for -devel ...
[10:01] <Surak> crimsun: breezy has sl-modem-source 2.9.10+2.9.9d . what are you talking about?
[10:02] <Surak> crimsun: that's the one I'm trying.
[10:03] <crimsun> Surak: I accidentally uploaded the non-distributable 2.9.10 and then reverted it to 2.9.9d
[10:04] <crimsun> the version in Breezy is 2.9.9d-6 from Debian
[10:06] <Surak> 2.9.10 fails to compile on ubuntu. 
[10:07] <sivang> daniels: do you know if lshw replaces lshal ?
[10:08] <daniels> sivang: they serve different purposes, I believe
[10:08] <sivang> daniels: ok, thanks. (hi btw)
[10:09] <crimsun> Surak: then try http://linmodems.technion.ac.il/packages/smartlink/slmodemd-2.9.11_20051009_gcc4.tar.gz
[10:09] <daniels> sivang: yo
[10:15] <mhz> smurf: ping
[10:15] <smurf> mhz: ?
[10:15] <mhz> smurf: i wont bug you more and i am truly sorry but anychances you could place the last ssh key i sent a week or so ago?
[10:16] <sivang> daniels: I'm working on a way to detect which kind of media devices a system has, from python. simplest and fastest way appears to be popening lshw's xml output and traverse the xml tree.
[10:16] <smurf> mhz: duh, one moment
[10:16] <mhz> smurf: thx for the patience to my stupidity
[10:17] <sivang> crimsun: hehe, that's still served from  my former university web site :)
[10:17] <smurf> mhz: done
[10:18] <sivang> crimsun: s/web site/web server/
[10:20] <mhz> smurf: educool! i am in
[10:20] <mhz> thx, smurf 
[10:39] <jdong> people want me to backport ooo2 from Dapper (both the m143 snapshot and the 2.0.1 packages when they come out)...
[10:39] <jdong> currently, these packages don't compile because the breezy patch ooo-build/patches/src680/use-free-xt-xp-jaxp-from-system-breezy.diff references an xt.jar that's in dapper
[10:40] <jdong> I was wondering if it's possible to make the xt.jar symlinking process more intelligent / distinguish between Dapper and Breezy
[10:42] <doko> jdong: sureley there is, but there are more changes needed for breezy packages. there will be packages built for breezy, we'll still have to decide, if those are good enough to go to breezy-updates
[10:42] <jdong> doko: cool, so there are already potential plans for making OOo updates for BREezy?
[10:43] <jdong> and also, out of curiousity, what kind of "more changes"? The packages I built from Dapper seem to work fine on my system after xt.jar symlinks properly
[10:46] <doko> jdong: build dependencies
[10:48] <jdong> doko: huh, on the 2.0.0m143 Dapper packages? They resolve fine here with apt-get build-dep
[10:48] <doko> jdong: you did ask for 2.0.1
[10:48] <jdong> doko: in the long run, yes :)
[10:55] <mhz_BBS> smurf: I have edited 3 times the wikiconfig.py file 'successfully' but changes don't get made (so it seems), even after I refresh the cache in firefox. Any ideas?
[10:55] <smurf> mhz_BBS: you need to kill the fcgi process.
[10:55] <mhz_BBS> okis, thx
[10:55] <mdke> mhz_BBS, #ubuntu-locoteams
[10:56] <mhz_BBS> mdke: oops, i had no memory of such channel, sorry.
[10:56] <mdke> mhz_BBS, np, we can help you with any problems, hopefully
[11:04] <mdke> is there any place I can see the packages which ship with ubuntu-server?
[11:06] <Nafallo> mdke: .list
[11:08] <mdke> Nafallo, i don't know what that means I'm afraid
[11:09] <Nafallo> mdke: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily/current/dapper-install-i386.list
[11:09] <Nafallo> :-)
[11:09] <mdke> thanks
[11:14] <Burglaptop> mdke: you actually want this http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/
[11:19] <mdke> what Nafallo showed me did the trick, but i'll check that out too
[11:20] <mdke> hmm so it ships with both exim4 and postfix?
[11:21] <mdke> that can't be right, exim4 is in universe...
[11:21] <Pygi> hm, maybe it will integrate in main? :/
[11:21] <mdke> Burglaptop, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/ubuntu-server-dapper/server has universe packages in, do you know why that is?
[11:22] <Nafallo> mdke: source is in main...
[11:22] <mdke> ah, perhaps it's in dapper main and breezy universe?
[11:22] <Pygi> yup
[11:22] <Pygi> probably
[11:22] <mdke> oh no, i'm running dapper
[11:22] <Pygi> ;)
[11:22] <mdke> Nafallo, so it's fully supported?
[11:23] <Nafallo> mdke: well, the source is so... ;-)
[11:23] <Burglaptop> mdke: no idea
[11:23] <Nafallo> it was in main for breezy no?
[11:23] <ogra> mdke, this is what you want http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/ubuntu-server-dapper/server
[11:24] <Nafallo> aha!
[11:24] <Nafallo> exim4 binary is a dummy, no? :-)
[11:24] <mdke> ogra, that is what I just posted... so can you explain why it has universe packages in?
[11:24] <ogra> and it ships exim4-{base,daemon-light,daemon-heavy}
[11:24] <ogra> there are no universe pakages in
[11:24] <Nafallo> or meta-package rather :-)
[11:24] <mdke> ahh
[11:24] <mdke> just exim4 is in universe?
[11:24] <ogra> the binarys are all in main
[11:24] <mdke> ok i see thanks
[11:25] <ogra> migth be that exim4 (source) is
[11:25] <ogra> sorry, havent made the -doc change yet, will do it now
[11:25] <mdke> ogra, any idea if Riddell's package is working ok?
[11:25] <mdke> i'd like to give it a try
[11:25] <ogra> it looked as it would to me
[11:26] <ogra> but i havent heard back from infinity 
[11:26] <mdke> okay, no rush
[11:26] <ogra> dunno if he had time yet
[11:26] <ogra> firefox is ftbfs on amd64 and blocks half the world, i gues he prioritizes it
[11:26] <mdke> quite right too
[11:32] <Nafallo> elmo: you are doing the NEW queue? :-)
[11:32] <seb128> Nafallo: what new?
[11:33] <Nafallo> seb128: network-manager introduced network-manager-dev :-/
[11:33] <seb128> oh
[11:33] <seb128> you have updated to current upstream :)
[11:33] <Nafallo> yea, and for dhcdbd aswell :-)
[11:34] <Nafallo> and got rid of bind9 :-P
[11:34] <seb128> cool
[11:34] <seb128> does it work fine?
[11:34] <Nafallo> works here for weeks :-)
[11:35] <Nafallo> ...and with new dbus all day :-)
[11:35] <seb128> nice
[11:36] <Nafallo> built on all arches to, just need it to go into the archive now :-)
[11:37] <seb128> infinity, lamont: could you give a retry to epiphany-browser when the new firefox upload has built?
[11:46] <sebest_> Hello, anyone knows the status of movinf avahi to main?
[11:46] <seb128> not done yet
[11:47] <sebest_> seb128, is it plan?
[11:48] <seb128> yep
[11:48] <seb128> it's listed on the wiki
[11:48] <seb128> and we are poking pitti quite frequently about it
[11:48] <sebest_> great :)
[11:48] <seb128> but it's not an easy piece of code to read so he's not in an hurry
[11:49] <sebest_> he wants to review it for security?
[11:49] <seb128> btw are you the guy who wrote the nautilus/samba stuff some time ago?
[11:49] <seb128> yeah, that's a part of the promotion procedure
[11:49] <sebest_> yes, i'm also an avahi dev (that's why i'm asking about it)
[11:49] <seb128> know if the code is maintainable
[11:49] <seb128> and has no obvious security issue
[11:49] <seb128> oh, cool
[11:49] <sebest_> avahi's code doesn't run as root at all
[11:50] <seb128> right, but still we don't want to ship crashy code
[11:50] <sebest_> yeah that make a lot of sense :)
[11:50] <seb128> anyway it's on the list of promotion
[11:50] <seb128> and people are pushing for it
[11:50] <seb128> I think it'll be worked start of 2006
[11:50] <seb128> (people are on holidays next week)
[11:50] <Nafallo> 3 year support of avahi if it's get in :-)
[11:51] <sebest_> good, i wrote some patch for it in gnomemeeting and vino
[11:51] <seb128> BTW about this nautilus/samba stuff, are you still working on it? did it get packaged for Ubuntu?
[11:51] <seb128> I still think we should ship that somewhere, it's nice for users to have
[11:51] <Nafallo> seb128: wiki? :-)
[11:52] <sebest_> yes, i still work on it (even if the last weeks i was working on avahi)
[11:52] <sebest_> a novell guy contacted me about it
[11:52] <Nafallo> what is that stuff? :-)
[11:52] <sebest_> they wanted to include it in the next nld release
[11:52] <seb128> "wanted"? they changed their mind on it?
[11:52] <sebest_> no :)
[11:53] <slomo> oh hi sebest_ :)
[11:53] <sebest_> hi slomo :)
[11:53] <sebest_> they still want it, he is working with a samba dev
[11:54] <seb128> sebest_: working on what?
[11:54] <sebest_> Nafallo, http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/mediawiki-1.4.4/index.php/Accueil
[11:54] <sebest_> on integrating it in NLD
[11:55] <sebest_> seb128: wait a second, i find the name of the guys
[11:55] <seb128> sebest_: I'm not really interest by the guy, rather to get it packaged for Ubuntu ... were you working on that?
[11:55] <Nafallo> woha! that looks nice :-)
[11:56] <seb128> you had some .deb
[11:56] <sebest_> Federico Mena Quintero
[11:56] <seb128> oh, federico
[11:56] <seb128> he does a lot of stuff for GNOME
[11:56] <seb128> he maintains the GTK fileselector by example :)
[11:56] <sebest_> yes, that's why ;)
[11:56] <slomo> i could package it if noone else wants to :)
[11:56] <ogra> i thought he was a DB addicted
[11:57] <sebest_> and the samba guy is Jeremy Allison
[11:57] <seb128> ogra: you speak about rodrigo no?
[11:57] <ogra> ah, yes, i always muddle them ;)
[11:57] <sebest_> federico is also working on improving gnome-vfs samba support
[11:57] <sebest_> about the deb package i did one
[11:59] <sebest_> seb128: http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/ubuntu/breezy/source/
[12:00] <seb128> sebest_: did you try to ping some motu about it?
[12:00] <sebest_> yes, i did, i posted it, on a wiki page
[12:00] <seb128> cool
[12:00] <seb128> I'll ping dholbach tomorrow about it
[12:00] <seb128> jbailey: you may be interested by that stuff
[12:01] <slomo> sebest_: i can review it later if you want... but as a first change make it a non-native package an remove the .svn directories ;)
[12:01] <seb128> slomo: that would be nice
[12:01] <jbailey> seb128: Hmm?
[12:01] <seb128> jbailey: http://gentoo.ovibes.net/nautilus-share/mediawiki-1.4.4/index.php/Accueil
[12:01] <sebest_> slomo, i didn't know about make dist at this time ;)
[12:01] <seb128> jbailey: have a quick look on the screenshoots to get an idea :)
[12:01] <sebest_> since i worked on avahi, my autotools skill improved a lot :)
[12:01] <jbailey> Ooo!
[12:02] <jbailey> s this in Breezy?
[12:02] <ogra> hey, i thought that was packaged long ago ...
[12:02] <slomo> sebest_: hehe... are you still there in... say... one hour?