/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/12/26/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== jenda_zZz [n=jenda@195.47.80.185.adsl.nextra.cz] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Success"]
=== minghua [n=minghua@danube.mems.rice.edu] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== ealden [n=ealden@ipdial-167-116.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== darkmatter [n=darkmatt@206-163-248-40.yktn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== rob1 [n=Robert@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== doko [n=doko@dslb-084-059-067-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Bonzodog [n=Bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Bonzodog [n=Bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== cyphase [n=cyphase@69.106.49.211] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mirno is now known as Kmirno_AWAY
=== {alejandro} [n={alejand@69.255.3.84] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== {alejandro} [n={alejand@69.255.3.84] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== SloMoSnail [n=slomo@p5487F2C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dsaa [i=dsa@210.213.87.102] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== cmvo [n=cmvo@62.225.11.174] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dsaa [i=dsa@210.213.87.102] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== dieman [n=dieman@3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@67.62.254.201] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== shawarma_ [n=sh@3E6B503C.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Ju` [n=Ju@AAubervilliers-153-1-37-182.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== uniq [n=frode@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dous [n=adpenara@203.131.155.131] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== zoe [n=zoe@gnulinux.good-day.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== anandaputra [n=ananda@222.124.10.195] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== jhammam [n=chatzill@195.112.210.45] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== anandaputra [n=ananda@222.124.10.195] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
jhammamhi10:07
jhammamcan anyone help me to register10:08
Treenaksjhammam: register what10:15
=== linbetwin [i=linbetwi@85.186.214.190] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jhammamits said that this channel requires that you have registered and identified yourself with the network's nickname10:24
=== mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lbm [n=lbm@cpe.atm4-0-1301006.0x50a0824e.vgnxx6.customer.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== anandaputra [n=ananda@222.124.10.195] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
anandaputrahallooo...10:35
jhammamhi10:42
=== linbetwin [i=linbetwi@85.186.214.190] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== dholbach [n=daniel@p54A65DC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== anandaputra [n=ananda@222.124.10.195] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
=== robotgeek [n=robotgee@ppp-70-251-32-24.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== robotgeek [n=robotgee@ppp-70-251-32-24.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== dholbach [n=daniel@p54A6524C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== irvin [n=irvin@203.213.220.247] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== irvin_ [n=irvin@203.213.220.157] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== irvin [n=irvin@203.213.220.157] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-9-151-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== kjcole [n=kjcole@dsl092-145-217.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089D7E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
kjcoleHiya all...12:59
=== flint [n=flint@69-164-122-221.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
YagisanG'day kjcole01:00
lucasvohi kjcole 01:00
flintmorning kevin!!01:00
lucasvokjcole: I managed to checkout the cookbook01:01
lucasvokjcole: is there any roadmap/ todo list?01:01
kjcoleMorning, Mr. Flint, Did you get that grant notification from Community of Science?01:02
JaneWhi all01:02
flintkjcole, did i mention how much it sucks to be old enough to be called Mr. Flint?  BTW what grant notification?01:03
kjcoleLucasvo, Not yet, but it sounds like a good idea.  We're basically making a pass thru to eliminate unwanted stuff first then a second pass to figure out what to add.01:03
JaneWsorry about missing last week, things have been hectic and I felt really ill  etc01:03
flintmorning jane how you feel?01:03
Forthhi Mr. Flint01:03
ograyeah, sorry for not putting up the notes yet ... 01:03
ograi lag a bit with my paperwork01:03
flintForth, that was harsh, try flint...morning ollie!01:04
JaneWflint: much better today, but ready for a VAC!01:04
kjcoleFlint, I sent something your way last saturday or sunday: someone's offering money for "computers and software that will close the digital divide in education..."01:04
flintJaneW, it is a balmy -3 F here in Montpelier, Vermont...01:05
JaneWsucks2Bme, peak of summer holidays here and I still working01:05
JaneWflint: luverly!01:05
JaneWok let's hit it?01:05
kjcoleFlint, brisk..01:05
flintkjcole, i will check, please send again...01:05
ograyup01:05
=== jelkner [n=jelkner@158.59.194.142] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
ogramy update is quick today ....01:05
ogramost of my worktime was spent for http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2005-December/000927.html last week01:06
ograbut i started to work on the low memory spec (which includes the fix for powerpc installs to finally work)01:06
kjcoleflint, it's one of those things that only allows you to send form mail, so it may not look like it's from me, but trust it.  Community of Science.01:06
ograthats al from the tech side ....01:06
kjcoleAnd, g'morning JaneW.01:06
flintkjcole, gotcha...01:06
JaneWhi kjcole01:07
jelknerkjcole: did we do documentation report yet?01:07
Yagisanogra: so currently it still uses the same amount of ram as breezys ?01:07
JaneWoli: wow that was quick01:07
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jelknerquick is good01:07
kjcolejelkner, no.01:07
ograYagisan, yup01:07
Yagisanogra: so still a tight fit on 64mb boxes01:08
JaneWooh I am lagging on the list mails we have a flight 2?01:08
ogramy next upload will include the change to drop the linux-restricted-modules package from the thin client01:08
JaneWogra: and LiveCD?01:08
ograwhich will gain about 10-15 MB01:08
ograJaneW, is fine 01:08
ograsee the announceent :)01:08
=== JaneW is trying to speed read
JaneWYAY01:08
Yagisanother then myself and ogra, has anyone tested multi-arch out ?01:09
=== JaneW hugs ogra
JaneWyou been stealthy ;)01:09
JaneWwell done !01:09
ograi was busy :)01:09
JaneWmdz will be impressed (I hope)01:09
=== lucasvo_ [n=lucasvo@www.wservices.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
ograYagisan, i tested it several times ... but i'd like to enhance it for ppc on amd64/i386, any input welcome01:09
Yagisanogra: I'm still think about using qemu for that01:10
=== lucasvo_ is now known as lucasvo
flintogra, damn...I expect to begin testing here and I will rely on this page from you.01:10
ograflint, jelkner has alreaedy beaten you :) got my first bug reports ;)01:11
Yagisanogra: first I'll fix my fstab issues, send patch, then investigate how to get that going. should qemu work01:11
Yagisanogra: I'll need some people with real powerpc boxes to test the clients01:11
ograi'm not sure, i have no quemu experience at all... i use real HW01:11
flintogra, ollie, elkner is a whiner, of course he would file the first bugs...01:11
lucasvoYagisan: I have a iBook01:11
ograflint, he didnt file ;) he reported live :)01:11
flintogra, thus proving my point :^)01:12
ograheh01:12
flintYagisan, will a mac do as a power pc platform?01:13
ograyup01:13
Yagisanit should 01:13
ograits the only thing i'll test here ...01:13
Yagisanfirst I need the unpack to go succesfully01:13
ograunless someone donates me a netvista thin client :)01:13
flintA lot of my stuff is still in storage, but I may have an angle here...Elkner what about Phil?01:14
YagisanI had that partially working around the time of breezys release, but I haven't picked it up since then01:14
kjcoleFlint, Shapiro?  Or another Phil?01:14
Yagisanthe issue I had was that qemu would run simple stuff like ls, dmesg but it died on bash, and the install failed (amd64 host)01:15
flintkjcole, yes indeed Phil Shapiro.  He has truckloads of G3's and maybe a few G5's01:15
jelkneryes he does01:17
jelknerand i'm sure he would like to help01:17
jelkneri only have about 12 minutes before students arrive, are we going to talk about docs?01:18
ografor now the ltsp install on ppc is still borked ... so yu guys have some time until my next upload arrives ;)01:18
ograi'm done as i said ...01:18
JaneWare we done with tech stuff?01:19
JaneWsnap01:19
ogra:)01:19
JaneWgood progress01:19
ogramostly CD testing ... it eats a lot of time ...01:19
JaneWogra: so is everything looking like smooth sailing to dapper?01:19
lucasvoYagisan: you are interested in testing ppc clients?01:19
=== FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@67.62.254.201] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
ograJaneW, yup01:19
JaneWogra: excellent01:19
JaneWogra: and local devices, think there's a chance it will get sorted?01:19
ograJaneW, and i even got granted the right to upload myself while mdz is away ;)01:20
JaneWogra: cool, sneak stuff through... ;)01:20
JaneWI never said that!01:20
Yagisanlucasvo: yes - but I'm in Sydney01:20
ograthere is still a meeting pending... i'll have to wait for mdz, but i'll start testing 01:20
JaneWnod01:20
JaneWok documentation ->01:20
lucasvoYagisan: ssh isn't enough?01:20
ograsound is also awaiting his approval01:20
flintJaneW, wait a minute i have to pick at a very important scab...01:21
Yagisanlucasvo: I'd need a loaner for some testing01:21
JaneWflint: you are incorigable!01:21
Yagisanlucasvo: anyway - I'll let you know if/when I have something ready to test01:21
JaneW(and I can't spell)01:21
flintogra, elkner says it will not be very dapper without local storage...01:21
Yagisanflint: but ducks only have a limited amount of local storage anyway ...01:22
ograflint, the spec was always low/mid prio ...01:22
ograi have to care for the high priority stuff first ...01:22
ograand for the blocker bugs ...01:23
jelknerflint: you were not available01:23
Yagisanogra: priority 1 - does it start, priority 2 - no BSOD :)01:24
jelknerlimited is ok, but we *some*01:24
ograflint, the other specs are likely to be implemented before edn of the year (at least locally) so i can spend the rest of my time on local devices ...01:24
flintYagisan, what is this a "flap" about storage?01:24
jelknerogra: great news!01:25
ograbut still n promises ...01:25
flintthat would be sweet ollie! i would love to help...01:25
JaneWflint: what about the scab...?01:26
JaneWflint is Gold Memeber!01:26
flintthat is the itch! 01:26
flintI would not want a duck with an itch...01:27
flinton to the docs...01:27
kjcoleMeanwhile... Docs: We are getting more and more requests from folks wanting to help with the cookbook... which, while appreciated, I'm not sure we're ready for.  One thing is that I think some are still thinking "wiki" while we're thinking "PDF" and "HTML".  01:27
jelknerbesides, too many cooks spoil the cookbook01:28
kjcolelucasvo asked a few minutes ago if we had a roadmap...  I guess the tuxlab table of contents is the closest approximation of a roadmap, such as it is.01:28
jelknerthings work well with a small group of folks who can work closely together01:28
irvinthe cookbook will be dapper-specific or will it include stuff from breezy?01:29
jelknerbut to maintain a consistent style and a well organized book, you really need just a few people01:29
ograit will be dapper and + 01:29
jelknerogra: we will need your help01:29
=== Kmirno_AWAY is now known as Mirno
ograjelkner, for ? 01:29
jelknerwe have what was a chapter (which we are making an appendix) which describes the boot process in low level detail01:30
ogratech stuff ? 01:30
jelkneryup01:30
jelknerit will be a great appendix01:30
ografine with me 01:30
jelknerthe current version describes ltsp01:30
flintI will make myself available for bad prose and puns....01:30
ograso we have a 20 page cookbook and a 100 page appendix ? 01:30
irvinhaha01:30
jelknerand since edubuntu is different, kevin and i will need your help01:30
ogra:)01:30
lucasvoa list of who is working on what would be gooda as well. 01:30
flintand 300 pages of bug reports...01:30
jelknerkevin said he would get in touch with you about that01:31
ograthe basics of the bootprocess are the same ...01:31
kjcoleogra, We're now in chapter 6, and an appendix.  The LTSP description in tuxLab goes into deep detail, which I gather, is wong.01:31
jelkneryou'll see when we send you the draft01:31
jelknera lot is different01:31
kjcolejelkner, my bad.01:31
ograyup, i'll check out bzr ...01:31
flintactually, are there any diagrams?01:31
jelknerno01:31
jelknerwe could use some01:31
flintI love diagrams, elkner knows from his system descriptions how much I like diagrams.01:32
jelknerstep on is to get the current edited version of the appendix to ogra01:33
jelkner(kjcole will do that)01:33
JaneWjelkner: it makes sense to keep the group containable and functional then, if you can manage the load...01:33
jelknerthen after ogra fixes it, we can talk to flint about adding a diagram01:33
JaneWdiagrams are great, the more the better IMO01:33
ograyup01:33
JaneWmakes it more interesting and accessable01:33
jelknerJaneW: yes, jane01:33
jelknerthat is the only way to do it01:33
kjcoleogra, expect that from me a bit later today.01:34
ograyup01:34
jelknersince it is free content, folks can make whatever changes they want after we have a go at it01:34
jelkneri guess that's it for the book01:35
lucasvoI would like to have some list of who is doing what for the cookbook. 01:35
kjcoleThe face-to-face meetings really help.  (As nice as IRC and gobby are, they're no substitute for simultaneously reading text aloud.)01:35
lucasvoBecause I don't have a clue who is doing what.01:36
lucasvokjcole: where do you live :D01:36
jelknerluscasva: kevin and i are editing the first draft01:36
jelknerthat's about it01:36
flintkjcole, elkner are skype-ing at this meeting.  I highly recommend this communication channel to all...01:36
ogralucasvo, > than 8h away from you 01:36
ogra(with a plane ;) )01:36
lucasvoskype doesn't work on my box01:36
flintlucasvo, it took a lot of doing to get skype working under breezy...01:37
kjcolelucasvo, just ignore flint. ;-)01:37
ogracomplain at skype, its closed source stuff, we cant do much about it ...01:38
lucasvoyeah, thats why we should use gnome-meeting01:38
ograyup01:38
lucasvobut that doesn't work on my machine, because I have blocked UDP01:39
flintlucasvo, indeed, that is why stoom or gizmo might be a better fit.  funcitonally it is really quite nice..01:40
jelknerlucasvo: are you trying to get involved in the book?01:42
lucasvojelkner: yes01:42
jelknerok, here is what we should do:01:42
kjcolelucasvo, essentially, we're going through the tuxLab Cookbook, in order.  Much of it is well-written, and just has parts which need to be eliminated.   And now we're finally getting into specific differences like the LTSP boot process, which need to be replaced.01:43
jelknerkevin and i are meeting next on jan 7 (sunday01:43
jelkner)01:43
jelknercould you join us remotely then?01:43
jelkner10 am EST01:43
kjcoleEastern Standard (UTC - 5:00)01:43
flintwhat a civilized hour to meet :^)01:43
jelknersend us your email jeff@elkner.net01:44
jelknerand we will get you the latest source before then01:44
=== kjcole is kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu
lucasvojelkner: 5 am in the morning?01:44
jelknerwell, we start then01:44
jelknerand work until about 4 pm01:44
flintlucasvo, I take it you are in "la bella italia"?01:44
jelknerso you could join us later01:44
kjcoleluasvo: EST = UTC -5:0001:44
lucasvoflint: no, switzerlad01:45
kjcolelucasvo, So, 10:00 EST... You do the math for where you are.01:45
flintlucasvo, a thousand pardons...01:45
lucasvoit is 4 in the morning for me01:45
jelkneranyway, our next work session is jan 701:46
jelknerwe *start* at 4 01:46
jelknerand work until 10 your time01:46
irvinkjcole, jelkner can i join in too?01:46
ogralucasvo, 5:00 UTC is 6am in europe01:46
jelknerwhat is the earliest you can jolin us?01:46
kjcoleLucasvo: That can't be right...  10:00 EST should be 3:00 PM EST, if I'm not mistaken.01:46
=== Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
kjcoles /3:00 EST/ 3:00 UTC/01:46
flintlucasvo, these people are like dairy farmers and the documentation is like a milk cow :^)01:46
JaneWOur next meeting is Jan 1101:47
jelknerirvin: send me an email: jeff@elkner.net01:47
lucasvojelkner: should I join the team?01:47
jelknerso i can plan with you how to get something going01:47
lucasvojelkner: launchpad.com/people/lucasvo01:47
jelknersure01:47
jelknerkevin set that up01:47
jelkneri don't know concretely what it means yet01:47
jelknerkevin?01:47
jelkners/jan 11/jan 701:48
jelkneroops01:48
kjcolejelkner, not a whole lot.  ;-)  It's currently just a list of interested parties.01:48
ograJaneW, why dont we do one on jan 4th ? 01:48
jelknerok, so folks can join it if they wish, but send me an email if you want to be included in the planning01:49
irvinthanks jelkner 01:49
JaneWogra: you can, but I will be on leave (and camping, so not available at all)01:50
kjcoleLucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.01:50
ograthere were several -fr people asking for a possibility to translate, since they are subscribed to the ML, could you CC the ml for planning ? 01:50
jelknerok, that about does it01:50
jelknerogra: ok, another issue01:50
jelknernot a good idea yet01:51
flintkjcole, for instance lucasvo, kevin would never approve me... :^(01:51
kjcolejelkner, launchpad, bzr, web space?01:51
ograjelkner, why ? 01:51
jelknerthey would be translating a *very* moving target01:51
jelknerthink how much work that would be01:51
lucasvokjcole: I don't understand what you want to say01:51
ograas early as possible  i would think01:51
flintkjcole, how is your experience with bzr?01:51
ograjelkner, my prob is that they start to develop totally independent documentation that i cant ever check (my french sucks)01:52
jelknerogra: yes, but that is the only way that makes sense01:52
ograso knowing they use our upstream source will give some safety about the correctnees of the content01:52
jelknerthe book is a global thing01:52
kjcolelucasvo, regarding what?01:52
lucasvo13:50 < kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.01:53
jelknerwhen editing chapter x, we find that a change in chapter x - 5 will help clarify things01:53
jelknerso the whole book is constantly changing01:53
jelknerif they start translating now01:53
ograthen they have to change it as well 01:53
jelknerthey would have to do it all again each week01:53
jelknera *lot* of work01:53
flintogra, the only thing to rely on is the outline/TOC... and even that remains in flux01:53
ogramy concern is that they already do stuff and that some of it is really wrong ...01:53
kjcoleLucasvo, you asked if you should "join the team".  I've set up a team on Launchpad, but it is restricted so that I get e-mail when someone adds themselves to the team.  Their membership waits until I approve it.01:54
ograadditionally they developed a broken liveCD and people come to us, asking about fixes for example ...01:54
kjcoleLucasvo, Unless it's flint, I approve them.01:54
ograi want coordination, as much as possible ...01:54
lucasvokjcole: aha, yes01:55
flintkjcole, power corrupts...01:55
jelknerogra: i can coordinate the english version of the book01:55
jelkneri would encourgage translators to wait01:55
ograjelkner, we need to coordinate beyond language borders, thats why i ask you to make the coordination public to all ...01:55
jelknerunless you have enough of a team for an independent effort in another language01:55
jelknerogra: keep in mind, you can't write a book with dozens of contributors01:56
ogra...thats why i ask to CC the mailing lis in your coordination discussions01:56
jelknerit won't work01:56
kjcoleOgra, most of what we're doing so far isn't very technical, and is general enough to still be right: "What is an Operating System?"  "What is a Network"  "Why is Open Source a 'good thing'?"01:56
lucasvolaunchpad.net - not found...01:57
jelknerit would be hugely helpful if we could get our work into bzr01:57
jelknerthen folks could just grab it and look at it01:57
ograjelkner, i just want you to make it public, i didnt say "acceppt 100 contributors"01:57
lucasvojelkner: what's the bzr kjcole has?01:57
ograthey should just know whats going on01:57
jelknerit is on a local machine he set up01:57
jelknerit would be much better to have it on launchpad01:58
ograit will, if launchpad is ready01:58
jelkneragian, we are stuck trying to learn to setup bzr, instead of focusing on writing the book01:58
ograthe bzr archive is fine ...01:58
ograwhats the prob ? 01:58
flintkevin, where is version control?  01:58
jelknerwe can't commit01:59
kjcolelucasvo, he meant launchpad, not bzr.01:59
ograyou dont commit on the server ....01:59
flintsounds like guy thing...01:59
kjcoleogra, he meant push.01:59
ograyou make a local branch and commit there ...01:59
ograand i still would suggest to leave the merging in one hand ... dont do all pushes to one source ... 02:00
flintwe have a big bzr understanding problem 02:00
lucasvocan you reach launchpad?02:00
ograhave one guy managing the merges of the branches02:00
ograhow i work with mdz:02:00
flintnext week documentation time is about using bzr ok?  jane back me up!02:00
ograhe has the master branch online ....02:00
ograi pull it locally, make my changes and commit ....02:01
JaneWflint: knock yourself out02:01
jelknerok all, i need to go02:01
JaneWon your own02:01
lucasvojelkner: I will contact you..02:01
ograthen i push it up to my own server ...02:01
flintkevin can you confirm that you have the master branch online02:01
jelknerstudents arriving...02:01
JaneWno meeting next week :P02:01
lucasvojelkner: are you in the launchpad team?02:01
ograand he does the merging02:01
jelknergreat02:01
lucasvojelkner: bye02:01
flintJaneW, yea I have done that before...02:01
jelknerbye02:01
JaneWthe next meeting is in 3 weeks time, and an unofficial one in 2 weeks02:01
flintok then week after all about bzr...02:01
lucasvoJaneW: what time?02:01
JaneWI am off for 2 weeks from friday WOOHOO02:02
ogralucasvo, as usual02:02
flintJaneW, we need meeting time about use of bzr to go forward.02:02
lucasvoah, ok02:02
JaneWfirst real leave since April 2004, cept for a long week end or 202:02
ograflint, yes, but you can come to #edubuntu and we do it there ... informal ...02:02
JaneWflint: you are welcome to have one anytime, even next week or the week after02:02
kjcoleflint, the master branch (root?) is on my machine.  Launchpad points to it.  However, it was intended to be there til moved to somewhere more official like Launchpad itself.  (Ogra tells me the launchpad super-mirror isn't ready for prime-time yet.)02:03
JaneWlucasvo: always the same time 12:00 UTC02:03
flintfine we will be there during the meeting on Sunday... will you be fresh and rested?02:03
lucasvoJaneW: ok, even if it is unofficial02:03
JaneWsunday02:03
JaneWlucasvo: well I won;t be here, I guess those that are around will meet the normal time?02:03
lucasvoah, ok02:03
lucasvoI can't reach launchpad02:04
kjcoleflint, one reason push/merge/whatever doesn't fly yet is because I didn't want to open up my little machine for "write access".  But pull works...02:04
JaneWI seriously need some afk time and will even shut*my*laptop*down *gaspe*!02:04
flintogra, you likely need to teach kevin and kevin can then torture me with his superior knowledge...02:04
irvinjust leave the schedule on the fridge :)02:04
JaneWit is on the fridge02:04
ograflint, in short its working how i described above ...02:04
YagisanJaneW: you turn off you laptop ?????02:04
JaneWYagisan: no but on Friday I am going to02:05
ograflint, everybody puts his branch online and doe his commits there... one merge master reviews and merges the work of the others in the main branch02:05
JaneWwe'll how see how long I last before turning it on again ;)02:05
ograflint, no magic involved02:05
flintogra, lemme attack this issue.   I see a problem to work on.02:06
kjcolelucasvo, I'm thinking you've got network problems: First the bzr branch giving you troubles now launchpad.net...02:06
flintelkner ment Sunday January 8th note the date!!!02:06
lucasvokjcole: atm I am in school with completely other net02:06
lucasvoah, maybe it is because I don't have https proxy02:07
kjcolelucasvo, well that blows that theory.  Wrong me.02:07
ograflint, if the supermirror exists, you'll have your branch attached to your account on launchpad and the merge master will be able to merge stuff *on* launchpad02:07
JaneWok time is def up, let's move to #edubuntu?02:07
lucasvoah goood02:07
YagisanJaneW: I've always wondered what that button next to reset does ...02:07
=== ogra moves to #edbuntu
lucasvokjcole: bzr was some python problem, now it is an issue of proxy02:07
flintjanew i move we move to breakfast.  see you on #edubuntu...02:08
=== kjcole moves to edubuntu
=== Mirno [n=mirspcm@office.spcmnet.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation]
=== Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-9-151-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
lucasvohm, I can't join the team, kjcole02:10
=== flint [n=flint@69-164-122-221.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
=== lucasvo [n=lucasvo@www.wservices.ch] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== lucasvo [n=lucasvo@www.wservices.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Forth [n=forth@i03v-195-36-149-108.d4.club-internet.fr] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["hopla"]
=== asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lbm [n=lbm@cpe.atm4-0-1301006.0x50a0824e.vgnxx6.customer.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lucasvo__ [n=lucasvo@www.wservices.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lbm [n=lbm@x1-6-00-13-10-7a-d1-e4.k233.webspeed.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089ED02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== JaneW [n=JaneW@dsl-146-148-187.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Pazzo [n=Pazzo@host130-250.pool8172.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== mez_ [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dholbach [n=daniel@p54A6524C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:lucasvo] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 19:00 UTC: Accessibility Team | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam
=== dous [i=[U2FsdGV@219.90.68.219] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dous [i=[U2FsdGV@219.90.68.219] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
=== mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== jgrieves [n=jgrieves@ip70-161-178-176.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lguerra [n=lguerra@200.21.93.196] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089E533.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dholbach [n=daniel@p54A6524C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== mez_ [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== thoreauputic [n=prospero@ubuntu/member/thoreauputic] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== thoreauputic [n=prospero@ubuntu/member/thoreauputic] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
=== siretart [i=siretart@tauware.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== dieman [n=dieman@12.47.34.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== phlaegel [n=phlaegel@atdot.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== \sh [n=nnsherma@80.237.233.3] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Nafallo_away [n=nnnafall@80.237.233.3] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== linbetwin [i=linbetwi@85.186.214.190] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
linbetwinHello, everyone!07:25
=== ajmitch [i=ajmitch@203.89.178.198] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lucasvo [n=lucasvo@www.wservices.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Ju` [n=Ju@AAubervilliers-153-1-37-182.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== azeem [n=mbanck@host109.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== kjcole [n=kjcole@pchb1f.gallaudet.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lguerra [n=lguerra@200.21.93.196] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Abandonando"]
=== jbailey [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
TheMusoHey all.07:59
dholbachhellas!07:59
dholbachI suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-)08:00
TheMusoYeah.08:00
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
kjcoleHi. ;-)08:01
=== TheMuso checks email while he waits. It is much easier getting up early for something like this.
=== ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089F92C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
kjcoleHi ogra.08:02
linbetwinhello all!08:03
=== hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
dholbachhey linbetwin, hno73 08:04
TheMusohno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks08:04
hno73hey dholbach08:04
linbetwinhello, dholbach!08:05
sivanghi all08:06
sivangwhat meeting is that?08:06
sivangah , ally08:06
sivangcool08:06
=== sivang is having hard time following the meetings with busy dayjob schedule, sorry
kjcolea11y 00ps ;-)  (If you didn't get it, never mind.)08:07
linbetwini always wondered why a11y for accessibility08:08
kjcolesivang, I know the feeling.  I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't sure which one.  Just that my alarm said "go". ;-)08:08
sivangkjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well08:09
dholbachlinbetwin: a<eleven letters>y08:09
TheMusoOk, so I think everybody is here...08:09
linbetwindholbach: thanks08:09
=== dholbach searches the Agenda on the wiki
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda08:10
hno73Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done since last meeting08:11
dholbachjgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda?08:11
dholbachyeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list08:11
TheMusoCool!08:11
dholbachwe're more and more taking off :-)08:11
=== crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
dholbachmaybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that make sense?08:12
hno73yeah, I might have leave early as well08:13
hno73Did anyone look at the testing plans?08:13
=== dholbach is honest and has a look *now* :)
=== TheMuso skimmed them.
hno73We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews08:14
hno73Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it08:14
dholbachi'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7)  above the table08:14
TheMusodholbach: I agree.08:15
dholbachi meant v1-v3, m1-m308:15
TheMusoAs for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up.08:16
hno73kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought that might need to be done in a different way08:16
TheMusoIt is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc.08:16
hno73kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out08:16
hno73TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off08:17
hno73also useful08:17
kjcolehno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his).08:17
TheMusokjcole: Which one?08:17
=== TheMuso must start working through some of these and commenting on them.
hno73kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of sound to convey information on the desktop08:18
hno73but rather that the issues are more subtle08:19
kjcoleTheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete.  Please put [URL]  in the wiki."08:19
hno73I think that was Jason's page08:19
kjcoleTheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation08:20
TheMusoYeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it.08:20
kjcoleTheMuso: From http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt08:20
TheMusoYeah not mine.08:21
hno73Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to start doing testing and then filing bugs08:21
dholbachyeah08:21
dholbachand i think your page is a good start08:22
hno73including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox08:22
hno73I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla08:22
kjcolehno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds...  If there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary.08:23
hno73Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help with testing08:23
jgrievessorry all had a family emerg.08:23
jgrievesgreetings!08:23
dholbachyeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as we can08:23
hno73kjcole: right08:23
hno73dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now08:24
dholbachyeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly08:24
TheMusojgrieves: Hey08:24
jgrievesalright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification08:25
kjcolehno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes, different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language.08:25
jgrievesit was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead08:25
dholbachjsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list)08:25
jgrievesTheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine08:26
TheMusoRight.08:27
linbetwinjgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved?08:27
jgrievesTheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper08:27
hno73dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so08:28
hno73:)08:28
jgrieveslinbetwin yep, I  built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes08:28
dholbachhno73: wow, that's ambitious :)08:28
jgrieveslinbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see that in Dapper08:28
hno73dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ?08:28
linbetwinjgrieves: great!08:29
dholbachyeah, that was super08:29
hno73jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well08:29
hno73And I have a couple in the pipeline08:29
jgrieveshno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left08:30
dholbachit'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream08:30
hno73I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well08:30
hno73jgrieves: yeah it looks good08:30
jgrieveshno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :)08:31
hno73:)08:31
hno73So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us08:31
jgrieveshno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I  think this will be a big story for us if we do it well08:32
TheMusohno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs?08:32
hno73how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD?08:32
TheMusoThey will need to be very well explained.08:32
TheMusoEven then I am not sure.08:32
hno73TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon08:32
jgrieveshno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical08:33
crimsunsomething less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps08:33
hno73the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD cover perhaps08:33
TheMusoYeah that could work.08:34
hno73if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format08:34
hno73like braille even08:34
jgrieveswe thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's?08:34
jgrieveshno73: great minds think alike :)08:34
hno73:)08:34
kjcoleOops.  Minor fires here at the office.  I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of this in the logs.  Sorry 'bout that.08:35
hno73once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware08:35
jgrieveshttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for helping me get most of this straightend up08:35
jgrieveshno73 i think your right.  Once aware it seems pretty simplistic08:36
hno73Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE08:36
hno73cool08:36
hno73ok, I'm done with my points08:36
hno73jgrieves: you hade some otems?08:36
TheMusoFor those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought.08:36
hno73items08:36
jgrievesthe documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with increasing content08:37
hno73Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel08:37
TheMusoI can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a braille device, I am unable to help regarding that.08:37
hno73which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly08:37
jgrievesTheMuso progress on the /Speakup page?08:37
TheMusojgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel.08:38
hno73jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers08:38
=== TheMuso intends to fetch an mm tree later today to have a look at what version is there.
jgrievesTheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page08:38
hno73so some testing from our side would be great08:39
TheMusoIndeed.08:39
jgrievesare our kernel people sounding optomistic?08:39
TheMusoI may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it.08:39
hno73jgrieves: yes indeed08:40
TheMusojgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it doesn't really, it should be fine.08:40
hno73though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :)08:40
jgrieveshno73: great08:40
TheMusoI would be happy to give it a workout.08:40
hno73I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional08:40
jgrievesI can throw it on a virtual machine08:40
TheMusoI will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those who want to try it out.08:40
jgrievesTheMuso great08:41
hno73Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two08:41
=== TheMuso makes his way to his local kernel.org mirror.
jgrievesTheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions, anybody else?08:42
jgrievesTheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they work,08:42
hno73jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before08:42
jgrieveshno73 definitely.  Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is written, I want it to be easy to follow08:43
hno73Has anyone tried it on two acreens?08:43
jgrievesand eventually scripted08:43
hno73jgrieves: cool, will do08:43
TheMusoI haven't as I only have one monitor here.08:43
hno73awesome :)08:43
jgrieveshno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :)08:44
hno73hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :)08:44
hno73but the 19" ones are good value IMO :)08:45
TheMusoIndeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day.08:45
=== hno73 has one, and is glad as I spend a lot of time in front of it
jgrievesso where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper yet?08:46
hno73jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can fix that08:46
jgrieveshno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer, but some seem to be at top, others at bottom08:47
=== hno73 did an install of dapper which failed to get net access. will try again
hno73jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that08:47
TheMusojgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he encountered something weird.08:48
TheMusodholbach: Any progress?08:48
hno73btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu08:48
jgrievesTheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both of ours seems to be fine08:48
hno73using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes08:48
hno73it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo08:49
hno73but it's still a bit broken08:49
jgrievesView > Page Style, very cool!!08:49
hno73I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis08:49
hno73(there will be slightly fewer options though)08:50
jgrievesi like that on the fly action :)08:50
hno73I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless08:50
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jgrievesTheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it08:50
hno73So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro08:51
hno73at the very least :)08:51
TheMusohttp://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2032008:51
jgrieveshno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :)08:51
jgrievesTheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road08:52
hno73getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from relevant places08:52
jgrieveshno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers?  TheMuso?08:52
TheMusojgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages though.08:53
kjcoleBack.08:53
hno73jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good08:53
hno73It's quite hard to fix though :(08:53
jgrievesTheMuso: cool.  have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus?08:53
hno73I'll probably need to work with upstream on that08:54
jgrievesmy guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in Windows with Jaws/WindowWise08:54
TheMusojgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out. Haven't tried with gnopernicus due to the firefox support being crap. Haven't tried with 1.5 yet.08:54
=== lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jgrievesTheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website coding08:54
TheMusojgrieves: What about speech?08:55
jgrievesTheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or that really weird...control.thingy they have08:55
=== hno73 is getting visitors from overseas now, so I'll have to run ...
TheMusoWith carrot browsing mode?08:55
jgrievesTheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc08:55
TheMusohno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas.08:55
hno73Thanks everyone :)08:55
jgrieveshno73: merry Christmas! did u email me?08:55
TheMusoWe will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so.08:55
hno73jgrieves: earlier today yes08:56
jgrieveshno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but thanks! that is exactly what i wanted08:56
jgrievesgoing into draft number 208:56
jgrievesso i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve08:56
=== PhantomsDad [n=gary@konversation/developer/PhantomsDad] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
jgrievesnot the most active discussion today huh?  were is Daniel?08:57
TheMusoGood question.08:57
TheMusoPhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier?08:57
PhantomsDadTheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to.08:58
TheMusoWe have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been considering testing the KDE accessibility tools.08:58
TheMusohmmm ok.08:58
PhantomsDadThe mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not available.08:58
=== bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
PhantomsDadGunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor.08:59
PhantomsDadHe must defend his thesis before it can be released.08:59
jgrievesPhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE?08:59
=== TheMuso wonders why most things have to depend on academia.
=== highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
PhantomsDadGunnar demoed it at aKademy.  I'll get the link..08:59
jgrievesi know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some apps dont even work with that...09:00
=== TheMuso must really poke the GNOME folks about speech-dispatcher.
=== dholbach [n=daniel@p54A65E58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Fui]
jgrievesthere is the man!09:01
dholbachi flew out the net, sorry :-(09:01
dholbachthe connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky09:01
jgrievesi sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :)09:02
TheMusohahaha.09:02
TheMusodholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility project.09:02
dholbachoh nice09:02
TheMusoHave you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff.09:02
dholbachhello PhantomsDad 09:02
PhantomsDadhello09:03
dholbachwhat were you talking about in the time, when i was away?09:03
TheMusoSince this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this elsewhere?09:03
dholbachi'll read the irclog09:03
TheMusodholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs.09:03
PhantomsDadHere's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/ http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users09:03
jgrievescool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility09:04
TheMusojgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching.09:05
TheMusoParticularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher)09:05
jgrievesTheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever made the switch because of lack of accessibility09:05
linbetwinjgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros09:06
jgrievesTheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher?09:06
jgrieveslinbetwin: how well did it keep focus?  09:06
TheMusojgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a really good idea.09:06
jgrievesTheMuso: link on information?  I haven't really heard of it before09:06
linbetwinjgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering the magnified area (no black blocks)09:07
TheMusospeech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are available.09:07
jgrievesPhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page?09:08
jgrievesTheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now09:08
TheMusojgrieves: Indeed.09:08
jgrieveslinbetwin: does it use composite?09:08
TheMusoI am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver anywhere.09:08
linbetwinjgrieves: i don't know what composite is09:09
jgrievesTheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know09:09
jgrieveslinbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major back-end09:09
TheMusojgrieves: I might have to.09:09
jgrievesTheMuso: or build your own :)09:10
linbetwinjgrieves: i really don't know09:10
linbetwinbut the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag09:11
linbetwinbut it can't be docked to the edge of the screen09:11
jgrieveslinbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work environemtn09:12
linbetwinand it has a superfluous title bar09:12
jgrieveslinbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds actually works pretty well09:12
jgrieveshttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview09:13
TheMusoAnyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more. :)09:13
=== TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
linbetwinjgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a window at the lower bottom of the screen09:14
jgrievesTheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with you hehe09:14
jgrieveslinbetwin: cool, whatever works for you.  i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used09:15
jgrieveslinbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis09:15
jgrievesTheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug 09:15
jgrievesTheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these in dapper09:16
jgrievesTheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation.  I would love your input in the speech part, especially with the console09:17
jgrievesTheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and better details09:17
linbetwinjgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag?09:18
jgrieveslinbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle09:18
linbetwinjgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that something that can be easily fixed?09:19
jgrieveslinbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps?09:20
jgrieveslinbetwin: before running a gtk app, run09:21
jgrievesexport GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge09:21
=== matthew5 [n=matthew_@ip70-176-180-97.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jgrievesthen run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized" everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the AT09:21
linbetwinfor ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work 09:23
jgrievesyep09:23
linbetwinin FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor09:24
=== asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jgrievesyeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS?09:25
kjcoleTime for some non-Ubuntu work.  Bye...09:25
linbetwinno, i hope to do that this weekend09:25
linbetwinbye, kjcole09:26
jgrieveslinbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki09:26
jgrievesi am trying to follow firefox closely09:26
jgrievesthe sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused09:26
linbetwinok09:26
jgrievesok lunch for me! see ya09:27
linbetwinbon appetit! see ya!09:28
jgrieveshha thanks09:29
=== linbetwin [i=linbetwi@85.186.214.190] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== PhantomsDad [n=gary@konversation/developer/PhantomsDad] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation]
=== highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@pcp0010489211pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
=== kjcole [n=kjcole@pchb1f.gallaudet.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== azeem [n=mbanck@host109.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@pcp0010489211pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!