[10:07] <jhammam> hi
[10:08] <jhammam> can anyone help me to register
[10:15] <Treenaks> jhammam: register what
[10:24] <jhammam> its said that this channel requires that you have registered and identified yourself with the network's nickname
[10:35] <anandaputra> hallooo...
[10:42] <jhammam> hi
[12:59] <kjcole> Hiya all...
[01:00] <Yagisan> G'day kjcole
[01:00] <lucasvo> hi kjcole 
[01:00] <flint> morning kevin!!
[01:01] <lucasvo> kjcole: I managed to checkout the cookbook
[01:01] <lucasvo> kjcole: is there any roadmap/ todo list?
[01:02] <kjcole> Morning, Mr. Flint, Did you get that grant notification from Community of Science?
[01:02] <JaneW> hi all
[01:03] <flint> kjcole, did i mention how much it sucks to be old enough to be called Mr. Flint?  BTW what grant notification?
[01:03] <kjcole> Lucasvo, Not yet, but it sounds like a good idea.  We're basically making a pass thru to eliminate unwanted stuff first then a second pass to figure out what to add.
[01:03] <JaneW> sorry about missing last week, things have been hectic and I felt really ill  etc
[01:03] <flint> morning jane how you feel?
[01:03] <Forth> hi Mr. Flint
[01:03] <ogra> yeah, sorry for not putting up the notes yet ... 
[01:03] <ogra> i lag a bit with my paperwork
[01:04] <flint> Forth, that was harsh, try flint...morning ollie!
[01:04] <JaneW> flint: much better today, but ready for a VAC!
[01:04] <kjcole> Flint, I sent something your way last saturday or sunday: someone's offering money for "computers and software that will close the digital divide in education..."
[01:05] <flint> JaneW, it is a balmy -3 F here in Montpelier, Vermont...
[01:05] <JaneW> sucks2Bme, peak of summer holidays here and I still working
[01:05] <JaneW> flint: luverly!
[01:05] <JaneW> ok let's hit it?
[01:05] <kjcole> Flint, brisk..
[01:05] <flint> kjcole, i will check, please send again...
[01:05] <ogra> yup
[01:05] <ogra> my update is quick today ....
[01:06] <ogra> most of my worktime was spent for http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2005-December/000927.html last week
[01:06] <ogra> but i started to work on the low memory spec (which includes the fix for powerpc installs to finally work)
[01:06] <kjcole> flint, it's one of those things that only allows you to send form mail, so it may not look like it's from me, but trust it.  Community of Science.
[01:06] <ogra> thats al from the tech side ....
[01:06] <kjcole> And, g'morning JaneW.
[01:06] <flint> kjcole, gotcha...
[01:07] <JaneW> hi kjcole
[01:07] <jelkner> kjcole: did we do documentation report yet?
[01:07] <Yagisan> ogra: so currently it still uses the same amount of ram as breezys ?
[01:07] <JaneW> oli: wow that was quick
[01:07] <jelkner> quick is good
[01:07] <kjcole> jelkner, no.
[01:07] <ogra> Yagisan, yup
[01:08] <Yagisan> ogra: so still a tight fit on 64mb boxes
[01:08] <JaneW> ooh I am lagging on the list mails we have a flight 2?
[01:08] <ogra> my next upload will include the change to drop the linux-restricted-modules package from the thin client
[01:08] <JaneW> ogra: and LiveCD?
[01:08] <ogra> which will gain about 10-15 MB
[01:08] <ogra> JaneW, is fine 
[01:08] <ogra> see the announceent :)
[01:08] <JaneW> YAY
[01:09] <Yagisan> other then myself and ogra, has anyone tested multi-arch out ?
[01:09] <JaneW> you been stealthy ;)
[01:09] <JaneW> well done !
[01:09] <ogra> i was busy :)
[01:09] <JaneW> mdz will be impressed (I hope)
[01:09] <ogra> Yagisan, i tested it several times ... but i'd like to enhance it for ppc on amd64/i386, any input welcome
[01:10] <Yagisan> ogra: I'm still think about using qemu for that
[01:10] <flint> ogra, damn...I expect to begin testing here and I will rely on this page from you.
[01:11] <ogra> flint, jelkner has alreaedy beaten you :) got my first bug reports ;)
[01:11] <Yagisan> ogra: first I'll fix my fstab issues, send patch, then investigate how to get that going. should qemu work
[01:11] <Yagisan> ogra: I'll need some people with real powerpc boxes to test the clients
[01:11] <ogra> i'm not sure, i have no quemu experience at all... i use real HW
[01:11] <flint> ogra, ollie, elkner is a whiner, of course he would file the first bugs...
[01:11] <lucasvo> Yagisan: I have a iBook
[01:11] <ogra> flint, he didnt file ;) he reported live :)
[01:12] <flint> ogra, thus proving my point :^)
[01:12] <ogra> heh
[01:13] <flint> Yagisan, will a mac do as a power pc platform?
[01:13] <ogra> yup
[01:13] <Yagisan> it should 
[01:13] <ogra> its the only thing i'll test here ...
[01:13] <Yagisan> first I need the unpack to go succesfully
[01:13] <ogra> unless someone donates me a netvista thin client :)
[01:14] <flint> A lot of my stuff is still in storage, but I may have an angle here...Elkner what about Phil?
[01:14] <Yagisan> I had that partially working around the time of breezys release, but I haven't picked it up since then
[01:14] <kjcole> Flint, Shapiro?  Or another Phil?
[01:15] <Yagisan> the issue I had was that qemu would run simple stuff like ls, dmesg but it died on bash, and the install failed (amd64 host)
[01:15] <flint> kjcole, yes indeed Phil Shapiro.  He has truckloads of G3's and maybe a few G5's
[01:17] <jelkner> yes he does
[01:17] <jelkner> and i'm sure he would like to help
[01:18] <jelkner> i only have about 12 minutes before students arrive, are we going to talk about docs?
[01:18] <ogra> for now the ltsp install on ppc is still borked ... so yu guys have some time until my next upload arrives ;)
[01:18] <ogra> i'm done as i said ...
[01:19] <JaneW> are we done with tech stuff?
[01:19] <JaneW> snap
[01:19] <ogra> :)
[01:19] <JaneW> good progress
[01:19] <ogra> mostly CD testing ... it eats a lot of time ...
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: so is everything looking like smooth sailing to dapper?
[01:19] <lucasvo> Yagisan: you are interested in testing ppc clients?
[01:19] <ogra> JaneW, yup
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: excellent
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: and local devices, think there's a chance it will get sorted?
[01:20] <ogra> JaneW, and i even got granted the right to upload myself while mdz is away ;)
[01:20] <JaneW> ogra: cool, sneak stuff through... ;)
[01:20] <JaneW> I never said that!
[01:20] <Yagisan> lucasvo: yes - but I'm in Sydney
[01:20] <ogra> there is still a meeting pending... i'll have to wait for mdz, but i'll start testing 
[01:20] <JaneW> nod
[01:20] <JaneW> ok documentation ->
[01:20] <lucasvo> Yagisan: ssh isn't enough?
[01:20] <ogra> sound is also awaiting his approval
[01:21] <flint> JaneW, wait a minute i have to pick at a very important scab...
[01:21] <Yagisan> lucasvo: I'd need a loaner for some testing
[01:21] <JaneW> flint: you are incorigable!
[01:21] <Yagisan> lucasvo: anyway - I'll let you know if/when I have something ready to test
[01:21] <JaneW> (and I can't spell)
[01:21] <flint> ogra, elkner says it will not be very dapper without local storage...
[01:22] <Yagisan> flint: but ducks only have a limited amount of local storage anyway ...
[01:22] <ogra> flint, the spec was always low/mid prio ...
[01:22] <ogra> i have to care for the high priority stuff first ...
[01:23] <ogra> and for the blocker bugs ...
[01:23] <jelkner> flint: you were not available
[01:24] <Yagisan> ogra: priority 1 - does it start, priority 2 - no BSOD :)
[01:24] <jelkner> limited is ok, but we *some*
[01:24] <ogra> flint, the other specs are likely to be implemented before edn of the year (at least locally) so i can spend the rest of my time on local devices ...
[01:24] <flint> Yagisan, what is this a "flap" about storage?
[01:25] <jelkner> ogra: great news!
[01:25] <ogra> but still n promises ...
[01:25] <flint> that would be sweet ollie! i would love to help...
[01:26] <JaneW> flint: what about the scab...?
[01:26] <JaneW> flint is Gold Memeber!
[01:26] <flint> that is the itch! 
[01:27] <flint> I would not want a duck with an itch...
[01:27] <flint> on to the docs...
[01:27] <kjcole> Meanwhile... Docs: We are getting more and more requests from folks wanting to help with the cookbook... which, while appreciated, I'm not sure we're ready for.  One thing is that I think some are still thinking "wiki" while we're thinking "PDF" and "HTML".  
[01:28] <jelkner> besides, too many cooks spoil the cookbook
[01:28] <kjcole> lucasvo asked a few minutes ago if we had a roadmap...  I guess the tuxlab table of contents is the closest approximation of a roadmap, such as it is.
[01:28] <jelkner> things work well with a small group of folks who can work closely together
[01:29] <irvin> the cookbook will be dapper-specific or will it include stuff from breezy?
[01:29] <jelkner> but to maintain a consistent style and a well organized book, you really need just a few people
[01:29] <ogra> it will be dapper and + 
[01:29] <jelkner> ogra: we will need your help
[01:29] <ogra> jelkner, for ? 
[01:30] <jelkner> we have what was a chapter (which we are making an appendix) which describes the boot process in low level detail
[01:30] <ogra> tech stuff ? 
[01:30] <jelkner> yup
[01:30] <jelkner> it will be a great appendix
[01:30] <ogra> fine with me 
[01:30] <jelkner> the current version describes ltsp
[01:30] <flint> I will make myself available for bad prose and puns....
[01:30] <ogra> so we have a 20 page cookbook and a 100 page appendix ? 
[01:30] <irvin> haha
[01:30] <jelkner> and since edubuntu is different, kevin and i will need your help
[01:30] <ogra> :)
[01:30] <lucasvo> a list of who is working on what would be gooda as well. 
[01:30] <flint> and 300 pages of bug reports...
[01:31] <jelkner> kevin said he would get in touch with you about that
[01:31] <ogra> the basics of the bootprocess are the same ...
[01:31] <kjcole> ogra, We're now in chapter 6, and an appendix.  The LTSP description in tuxLab goes into deep detail, which I gather, is wong.
[01:31] <jelkner> you'll see when we send you the draft
[01:31] <jelkner> a lot is different
[01:31] <kjcole> jelkner, my bad.
[01:31] <ogra> yup, i'll check out bzr ...
[01:31] <flint> actually, are there any diagrams?
[01:31] <jelkner> no
[01:31] <jelkner> we could use some
[01:32] <flint> I love diagrams, elkner knows from his system descriptions how much I like diagrams.
[01:33] <jelkner> step on is to get the current edited version of the appendix to ogra
[01:33] <jelkner> (kjcole will do that)
[01:33] <JaneW> jelkner: it makes sense to keep the group containable and functional then, if you can manage the load...
[01:33] <jelkner> then after ogra fixes it, we can talk to flint about adding a diagram
[01:33] <JaneW> diagrams are great, the more the better IMO
[01:33] <ogra> yup
[01:33] <JaneW> makes it more interesting and accessable
[01:33] <jelkner> JaneW: yes, jane
[01:33] <jelkner> that is the only way to do it
[01:34] <kjcole> ogra, expect that from me a bit later today.
[01:34] <ogra> yup
[01:34] <jelkner> since it is free content, folks can make whatever changes they want after we have a go at it
[01:35] <jelkner> i guess that's it for the book
[01:35] <lucasvo> I would like to have some list of who is doing what for the cookbook. 
[01:35] <kjcole> The face-to-face meetings really help.  (As nice as IRC and gobby are, they're no substitute for simultaneously reading text aloud.)
[01:36] <lucasvo> Because I don't have a clue who is doing what.
[01:36] <lucasvo> kjcole: where do you live :D
[01:36] <jelkner> luscasva: kevin and i are editing the first draft
[01:36] <jelkner> that's about it
[01:36] <flint> kjcole, elkner are skype-ing at this meeting.  I highly recommend this communication channel to all...
[01:36] <ogra> lucasvo, > than 8h away from you 
[01:36] <ogra> (with a plane ;) )
[01:36] <lucasvo> skype doesn't work on my box
[01:37] <flint> lucasvo, it took a lot of doing to get skype working under breezy...
[01:37] <kjcole> lucasvo, just ignore flint. ;-)
[01:38] <ogra> complain at skype, its closed source stuff, we cant do much about it ...
[01:38] <lucasvo> yeah, thats why we should use gnome-meeting
[01:38] <ogra> yup
[01:39] <lucasvo> but that doesn't work on my machine, because I have blocked UDP
[01:40] <flint> lucasvo, indeed, that is why stoom or gizmo might be a better fit.  funcitonally it is really quite nice..
[01:42] <jelkner> lucasvo: are you trying to get involved in the book?
[01:42] <lucasvo> jelkner: yes
[01:42] <jelkner> ok, here is what we should do:
[01:43] <kjcole> lucasvo, essentially, we're going through the tuxLab Cookbook, in order.  Much of it is well-written, and just has parts which need to be eliminated.   And now we're finally getting into specific differences like the LTSP boot process, which need to be replaced.
[01:43] <jelkner> kevin and i are meeting next on jan 7 (sunday
[01:43] <jelkner> )
[01:43] <jelkner> could you join us remotely then?
[01:43] <jelkner> 10 am EST
[01:43] <kjcole> Eastern Standard (UTC - 5:00)
[01:43] <flint> what a civilized hour to meet :^)
[01:44] <jelkner> send us your email jeff@elkner.net
[01:44] <jelkner> and we will get you the latest source before then
[01:44] <lucasvo> jelkner: 5 am in the morning?
[01:44] <jelkner> well, we start then
[01:44] <jelkner> and work until about 4 pm
[01:44] <flint> lucasvo, I take it you are in "la bella italia"?
[01:44] <jelkner> so you could join us later
[01:44] <kjcole> luasvo: EST = UTC -5:00
[01:45] <lucasvo> flint: no, switzerlad
[01:45] <kjcole> lucasvo, So, 10:00 EST... You do the math for where you are.
[01:45] <flint> lucasvo, a thousand pardons...
[01:45] <lucasvo> it is 4 in the morning for me
[01:46] <jelkner> anyway, our next work session is jan 7
[01:46] <jelkner> we *start* at 4 
[01:46] <jelkner> and work until 10 your time
[01:46] <irvin> kjcole, jelkner can i join in too?
[01:46] <ogra> lucasvo, 5:00 UTC is 6am in europe
[01:46] <jelkner> what is the earliest you can jolin us?
[01:46] <kjcole> Lucasvo: That can't be right...  10:00 EST should be 3:00 PM EST, if I'm not mistaken.
[01:46] <kjcole> s /3:00 EST/ 3:00 UTC/
[01:46] <flint> lucasvo, these people are like dairy farmers and the documentation is like a milk cow :^)
[01:47] <JaneW> Our next meeting is Jan 11
[01:47] <jelkner> irvin: send me an email: jeff@elkner.net
[01:47] <lucasvo> jelkner: should I join the team?
[01:47] <jelkner> so i can plan with you how to get something going
[01:47] <lucasvo> jelkner: launchpad.com/people/lucasvo
[01:47] <jelkner> sure
[01:47] <jelkner> kevin set that up
[01:47] <jelkner> i don't know concretely what it means yet
[01:47] <jelkner> kevin?
[01:48] <jelkner> s/jan 11/jan 7
[01:48] <jelkner> oops
[01:48] <kjcole> jelkner, not a whole lot.  ;-)  It's currently just a list of interested parties.
[01:48] <ogra> JaneW, why dont we do one on jan 4th ? 
[01:49] <jelkner> ok, so folks can join it if they wish, but send me an email if you want to be included in the planning
[01:49] <irvin> thanks jelkner 
[01:50] <JaneW> ogra: you can, but I will be on leave (and camping, so not available at all)
[01:50] <kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.
[01:50] <ogra> there were several -fr people asking for a possibility to translate, since they are subscribed to the ML, could you CC the ml for planning ? 
[01:50] <jelkner> ok, that about does it
[01:50] <jelkner> ogra: ok, another issue
[01:51] <jelkner> not a good idea yet
[01:51] <flint> kjcole, for instance lucasvo, kevin would never approve me... :^(
[01:51] <kjcole> jelkner, launchpad, bzr, web space?
[01:51] <ogra> jelkner, why ? 
[01:51] <jelkner> they would be translating a *very* moving target
[01:51] <jelkner> think how much work that would be
[01:51] <lucasvo> kjcole: I don't understand what you want to say
[01:51] <ogra> as early as possible  i would think
[01:51] <flint> kjcole, how is your experience with bzr?
[01:52] <ogra> jelkner, my prob is that they start to develop totally independent documentation that i cant ever check (my french sucks)
[01:52] <jelkner> ogra: yes, but that is the only way that makes sense
[01:52] <ogra> so knowing they use our upstream source will give some safety about the correctnees of the content
[01:52] <jelkner> the book is a global thing
[01:52] <kjcole> lucasvo, regarding what?
[01:53] <lucasvo> 13:50 < kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.
[01:53] <jelkner> when editing chapter x, we find that a change in chapter x - 5 will help clarify things
[01:53] <jelkner> so the whole book is constantly changing
[01:53] <jelkner> if they start translating now
[01:53] <ogra> then they have to change it as well 
[01:53] <jelkner> they would have to do it all again each week
[01:53] <jelkner> a *lot* of work
[01:53] <flint> ogra, the only thing to rely on is the outline/TOC... and even that remains in flux
[01:53] <ogra> my concern is that they already do stuff and that some of it is really wrong ...
[01:54] <kjcole> Lucasvo, you asked if you should "join the team".  I've set up a team on Launchpad, but it is restricted so that I get e-mail when someone adds themselves to the team.  Their membership waits until I approve it.
[01:54] <ogra> additionally they developed a broken liveCD and people come to us, asking about fixes for example ...
[01:54] <kjcole> Lucasvo, Unless it's flint, I approve them.
[01:54] <ogra> i want coordination, as much as possible ...
[01:55] <lucasvo> kjcole: aha, yes
[01:55] <flint> kjcole, power corrupts...
[01:55] <jelkner> ogra: i can coordinate the english version of the book
[01:55] <jelkner> i would encourgage translators to wait
[01:55] <ogra> jelkner, we need to coordinate beyond language borders, thats why i ask you to make the coordination public to all ...
[01:55] <jelkner> unless you have enough of a team for an independent effort in another language
[01:56] <jelkner> ogra: keep in mind, you can't write a book with dozens of contributors
[01:56] <ogra> ...thats why i ask to CC the mailing lis in your coordination discussions
[01:56] <jelkner> it won't work
[01:56] <kjcole> Ogra, most of what we're doing so far isn't very technical, and is general enough to still be right: "What is an Operating System?"  "What is a Network"  "Why is Open Source a 'good thing'?"
[01:57] <lucasvo> launchpad.net - not found...
[01:57] <jelkner> it would be hugely helpful if we could get our work into bzr
[01:57] <jelkner> then folks could just grab it and look at it
[01:57] <ogra> jelkner, i just want you to make it public, i didnt say "acceppt 100 contributors"
[01:57] <lucasvo> jelkner: what's the bzr kjcole has?
[01:57] <ogra> they should just know whats going on
[01:57] <jelkner> it is on a local machine he set up
[01:58] <jelkner> it would be much better to have it on launchpad
[01:58] <ogra> it will, if launchpad is ready
[01:58] <jelkner> agian, we are stuck trying to learn to setup bzr, instead of focusing on writing the book
[01:58] <ogra> the bzr archive is fine ...
[01:58] <ogra> whats the prob ? 
[01:58] <flint> kevin, where is version control?  
[01:59] <jelkner> we can't commit
[01:59] <kjcole> lucasvo, he meant launchpad, not bzr.
[01:59] <ogra> you dont commit on the server ....
[01:59] <flint> sounds like guy thing...
[01:59] <kjcole> ogra, he meant push.
[01:59] <ogra> you make a local branch and commit there ...
[02:00] <ogra> and i still would suggest to leave the merging in one hand ... dont do all pushes to one source ... 
[02:00] <flint> we have a big bzr understanding problem 
[02:00] <lucasvo> can you reach launchpad?
[02:00] <ogra> have one guy managing the merges of the branches
[02:00] <ogra> how i work with mdz:
[02:00] <flint> next week documentation time is about using bzr ok?  jane back me up!
[02:00] <ogra> he has the master branch online ....
[02:01] <ogra> i pull it locally, make my changes and commit ....
[02:01] <JaneW> flint: knock yourself out
[02:01] <jelkner> ok all, i need to go
[02:01] <JaneW> on your own
[02:01] <lucasvo> jelkner: I will contact you..
[02:01] <ogra> then i push it up to my own server ...
[02:01] <flint> kevin can you confirm that you have the master branch online
[02:01] <jelkner> students arriving...
[02:01] <JaneW> no meeting next week :P
[02:01] <lucasvo> jelkner: are you in the launchpad team?
[02:01] <ogra> and he does the merging
[02:01] <jelkner> great
[02:01] <lucasvo> jelkner: bye
[02:01] <flint> JaneW, yea I have done that before...
[02:01] <jelkner> bye
[02:01] <JaneW> the next meeting is in 3 weeks time, and an unofficial one in 2 weeks
[02:01] <flint> ok then week after all about bzr...
[02:01] <lucasvo> JaneW: what time?
[02:02] <JaneW> I am off for 2 weeks from friday WOOHOO
[02:02] <ogra> lucasvo, as usual
[02:02] <flint> JaneW, we need meeting time about use of bzr to go forward.
[02:02] <lucasvo> ah, ok
[02:02] <JaneW> first real leave since April 2004, cept for a long week end or 2
[02:02] <ogra> flint, yes, but you can come to #edubuntu and we do it there ... informal ...
[02:02] <JaneW> flint: you are welcome to have one anytime, even next week or the week after
[02:03] <kjcole> flint, the master branch (root?) is on my machine.  Launchpad points to it.  However, it was intended to be there til moved to somewhere more official like Launchpad itself.  (Ogra tells me the launchpad super-mirror isn't ready for prime-time yet.)
[02:03] <JaneW> lucasvo: always the same time 12:00 UTC
[02:03] <flint> fine we will be there during the meeting on Sunday... will you be fresh and rested?
[02:03] <lucasvo> JaneW: ok, even if it is unofficial
[02:03] <JaneW> sunday
[02:03] <JaneW> lucasvo: well I won;t be here, I guess those that are around will meet the normal time?
[02:03] <lucasvo> ah, ok
[02:04] <lucasvo> I can't reach launchpad
[02:04] <kjcole> flint, one reason push/merge/whatever doesn't fly yet is because I didn't want to open up my little machine for "write access".  But pull works...
[02:04] <JaneW> I seriously need some afk time and will even shut*my*laptop*down *gaspe*!
[02:04] <flint> ogra, you likely need to teach kevin and kevin can then torture me with his superior knowledge...
[02:04] <irvin> just leave the schedule on the fridge :)
[02:04] <JaneW> it is on the fridge
[02:04] <ogra> flint, in short its working how i described above ...
[02:04] <Yagisan> JaneW: you turn off you laptop ?????
[02:05] <JaneW> Yagisan: no but on Friday I am going to
[02:05] <ogra> flint, everybody puts his branch online and doe his commits there... one merge master reviews and merges the work of the others in the main branch
[02:05] <JaneW> we'll how see how long I last before turning it on again ;)
[02:05] <ogra> flint, no magic involved
[02:06] <flint> ogra, lemme attack this issue.   I see a problem to work on.
[02:06] <kjcole> lucasvo, I'm thinking you've got network problems: First the bzr branch giving you troubles now launchpad.net...
[02:06] <flint> elkner ment Sunday January 8th note the date!!!
[02:06] <lucasvo> kjcole: atm I am in school with completely other net
[02:07] <lucasvo> ah, maybe it is because I don't have https proxy
[02:07] <kjcole> lucasvo, well that blows that theory.  Wrong me.
[02:07] <ogra> flint, if the supermirror exists, you'll have your branch attached to your account on launchpad and the merge master will be able to merge stuff *on* launchpad
[02:07] <JaneW> ok time is def up, let's move to #edubuntu?
[02:07] <lucasvo> ah goood
[02:07] <Yagisan> JaneW: I've always wondered what that button next to reset does ...
[02:07] <lucasvo> kjcole: bzr was some python problem, now it is an issue of proxy
[02:08] <flint> janew i move we move to breakfast.  see you on #edubuntu...
[02:10] <lucasvo> hm, I can't join the team, kjcole
[07:25] <linbetwin> Hello, everyone!
[07:59] <TheMuso> Hey all.
[07:59] <dholbach> hellas!
[08:00] <dholbach> I suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-)
[08:00] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[08:01] <kjcole> Hi. ;-)
[08:02] <kjcole> Hi ogra.
[08:03] <linbetwin> hello all!
[08:04] <dholbach> hey linbetwin, hno73 
[08:04] <TheMuso> hno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks
[08:04] <hno73> hey dholbach
[08:05] <linbetwin> hello, dholbach!
[08:06] <sivang> hi all
[08:06] <sivang> what meeting is that?
[08:06] <sivang> ah , ally
[08:06] <sivang> cool
[08:07] <kjcole> a11y 00ps ;-)  (If you didn't get it, never mind.)
[08:08] <linbetwin> i always wondered why a11y for accessibility
[08:08] <kjcole> sivang, I know the feeling.  I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't sure which one.  Just that my alarm said "go". ;-)
[08:09] <sivang> kjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well
[08:09] <dholbach> linbetwin: a<eleven letters>y
[08:09] <TheMuso> Ok, so I think everybody is here...
[08:09] <linbetwin> dholbach: thanks
[08:10] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
[08:11] <hno73> Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done since last meeting
[08:11] <dholbach> jgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda?
[08:11] <dholbach> yeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list
[08:11] <TheMuso> Cool!
[08:11] <dholbach> we're more and more taking off :-)
[08:12] <dholbach> maybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that make sense?
[08:13] <hno73> yeah, I might have leave early as well
[08:13] <hno73> Did anyone look at the testing plans?
[08:14] <hno73> We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews
[08:14] <hno73> Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it
[08:14] <dholbach> i'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7)  above the table
[08:15] <TheMuso> dholbach: I agree.
[08:15] <dholbach> i meant v1-v3, m1-m3
[08:16] <TheMuso> As for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up.
[08:16] <hno73> kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought that might need to be done in a different way
[08:16] <TheMuso> It is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc.
[08:16] <hno73> kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out
[08:17] <hno73> TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off
[08:17] <hno73> also useful
[08:17] <kjcole> hno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his).
[08:17] <TheMuso> kjcole: Which one?
[08:18] <hno73> kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of sound to convey information on the desktop
[08:19] <hno73> but rather that the issues are more subtle
[08:19] <kjcole> TheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete.  Please put [URL]  in the wiki."
[08:19] <hno73> I think that was Jason's page
[08:20] <kjcole> TheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation
[08:20] <TheMuso> Yeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it.
[08:20] <kjcole> TheMuso: From http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt
[08:21] <TheMuso> Yeah not mine.
[08:21] <hno73> Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to start doing testing and then filing bugs
[08:21] <dholbach> yeah
[08:22] <dholbach> and i think your page is a good start
[08:22] <hno73> including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox
[08:22] <hno73> I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla
[08:23] <kjcole> hno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds...  If there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary.
[08:23] <hno73> Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help with testing
[08:23] <jgrieves> sorry all had a family emerg.
[08:23] <jgrieves> greetings!
[08:23] <dholbach> yeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as we can
[08:23] <hno73> kjcole: right
[08:24] <hno73> dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now
[08:24] <dholbach> yeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly
[08:24] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Hey
[08:25] <jgrieves> alright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification
[08:25] <kjcole> hno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes, different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language.
[08:25] <jgrieves> it was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead
[08:25] <dholbach> jsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list)
[08:26] <jgrieves> TheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine
[08:27] <TheMuso> Right.
[08:27] <linbetwin> jgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved?
[08:27] <jgrieves> TheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper
[08:28] <hno73> dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so
[08:28] <hno73> :)
[08:28] <jgrieves> linbetwin yep, I  built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes
[08:28] <dholbach> hno73: wow, that's ambitious :)
[08:28] <jgrieves> linbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see that in Dapper
[08:28] <hno73> dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ?
[08:29] <linbetwin> jgrieves: great!
[08:29] <dholbach> yeah, that was super
[08:29] <hno73> jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well
[08:29] <hno73> And I have a couple in the pipeline
[08:30] <jgrieves> hno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left
[08:30] <dholbach> it'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream
[08:30] <hno73> I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well
[08:30] <hno73> jgrieves: yeah it looks good
[08:31] <jgrieves> hno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :)
[08:31] <hno73> :)
[08:31] <hno73> So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us
[08:32] <jgrieves> hno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I  think this will be a big story for us if we do it well
[08:32] <TheMuso> hno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs?
[08:32] <hno73> how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD?
[08:32] <TheMuso> They will need to be very well explained.
[08:32] <TheMuso> Even then I am not sure.
[08:32] <hno73> TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon
[08:33] <jgrieves> hno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical
[08:33] <crimsun> something less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps
[08:33] <hno73> the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD cover perhaps
[08:34] <TheMuso> Yeah that could work.
[08:34] <hno73> if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format
[08:34] <hno73> like braille even
[08:34] <jgrieves> we thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's?
[08:34] <jgrieves> hno73: great minds think alike :)
[08:34] <hno73> :)
[08:35] <kjcole> Oops.  Minor fires here at the office.  I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of this in the logs.  Sorry 'bout that.
[08:35] <hno73> once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware
[08:35] <jgrieves> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for helping me get most of this straightend up
[08:36] <jgrieves> hno73 i think your right.  Once aware it seems pretty simplistic
[08:36] <hno73> Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE
[08:36] <hno73> cool
[08:36] <hno73> ok, I'm done with my points
[08:36] <hno73> jgrieves: you hade some otems?
[08:36] <TheMuso> For those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought.
[08:36] <hno73> items
[08:37] <jgrieves> the documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with increasing content
[08:37] <hno73> Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel
[08:37] <TheMuso> I can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a braille device, I am unable to help regarding that.
[08:37] <hno73> which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly
[08:37] <jgrieves> TheMuso progress on the /Speakup page?
[08:38] <TheMuso> jgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel.
[08:38] <hno73> jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers
[08:38] <jgrieves> TheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page
[08:39] <hno73> so some testing from our side would be great
[08:39] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[08:39] <jgrieves> are our kernel people sounding optomistic?
[08:39] <TheMuso> I may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it.
[08:40] <hno73> jgrieves: yes indeed
[08:40] <TheMuso> jgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it doesn't really, it should be fine.
[08:40] <hno73> though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :)
[08:40] <jgrieves> hno73: great
[08:40] <TheMuso> I would be happy to give it a workout.
[08:40] <hno73> I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional
[08:40] <jgrieves> I can throw it on a virtual machine
[08:40] <TheMuso> I will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those who want to try it out.
[08:41] <jgrieves> TheMuso great
[08:41] <hno73> Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two
[08:42] <jgrieves> TheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions, anybody else?
[08:42] <jgrieves> TheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they work,
[08:42] <hno73> jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before
[08:43] <jgrieves> hno73 definitely.  Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is written, I want it to be easy to follow
[08:43] <hno73> Has anyone tried it on two acreens?
[08:43] <jgrieves> and eventually scripted
[08:43] <hno73> jgrieves: cool, will do
[08:43] <TheMuso> I haven't as I only have one monitor here.
[08:43] <hno73> awesome :)
[08:44] <jgrieves> hno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :)
[08:44] <hno73> hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :)
[08:45] <hno73> but the 19" ones are good value IMO :)
[08:45] <TheMuso> Indeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day.
[08:46] <jgrieves> so where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper yet?
[08:46] <hno73> jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can fix that
[08:47] <jgrieves> hno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer, but some seem to be at top, others at bottom
[08:47] <hno73> jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that
[08:48] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he encountered something weird.
[08:48] <TheMuso> dholbach: Any progress?
[08:48] <hno73> btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu
[08:48] <jgrieves> TheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both of ours seems to be fine
[08:48] <hno73> using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes
[08:49] <hno73> it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo
[08:49] <hno73> but it's still a bit broken
[08:49] <jgrieves> View > Page Style, very cool!!
[08:49] <hno73> I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis
[08:50] <hno73> (there will be slightly fewer options though)
[08:50] <jgrieves> i like that on the fly action :)
[08:50] <hno73> I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless
[08:50] <jgrieves> TheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it
[08:51] <hno73> So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro
[08:51] <hno73> at the very least :)
[08:51] <TheMuso> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20320
[08:51] <jgrieves> hno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :)
[08:52] <jgrieves> TheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road
[08:52] <hno73> getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from relevant places
[08:52] <jgrieves> hno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers?  TheMuso?
[08:53] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages though.
[08:53] <kjcole> Back.
[08:53] <hno73> jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good
[08:53] <hno73> It's quite hard to fix though :(
[08:53] <jgrieves> TheMuso: cool.  have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus?
[08:54] <hno73> I'll probably need to work with upstream on that
[08:54] <jgrieves> my guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in Windows with Jaws/WindowWise
[08:54] <TheMuso> jgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out. Haven't tried with gnopernicus due to the firefox support being crap. Haven't tried with 1.5 yet.
[08:54] <jgrieves> TheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website coding
[08:55] <TheMuso> jgrieves: What about speech?
[08:55] <jgrieves> TheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or that really weird...control.thingy they have
[08:55] <TheMuso> With carrot browsing mode?
[08:55] <jgrieves> TheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc
[08:55] <TheMuso> hno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas.
[08:55] <hno73> Thanks everyone :)
[08:55] <jgrieves> hno73: merry Christmas! did u email me?
[08:55] <TheMuso> We will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so.
[08:56] <hno73> jgrieves: earlier today yes
[08:56] <jgrieves> hno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but thanks! that is exactly what i wanted
[08:56] <jgrieves> going into draft number 2
[08:56] <jgrieves> so i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve
[08:57] <jgrieves> not the most active discussion today huh?  were is Daniel?
[08:57] <TheMuso> Good question.
[08:57] <TheMuso> PhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier?
[08:58] <PhantomsDad> TheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to.
[08:58] <TheMuso> We have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been considering testing the KDE accessibility tools.
[08:58] <TheMuso> hmmm ok.
[08:58] <PhantomsDad> The mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not available.
[08:59] <PhantomsDad> Gunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor.
[08:59] <PhantomsDad> He must defend his thesis before it can be released.
[08:59] <jgrieves> PhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE?
[08:59] <PhantomsDad> Gunnar demoed it at aKademy.  I'll get the link..
[09:00] <jgrieves> i know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some apps dont even work with that...
[09:01] <jgrieves> there is the man!
[09:01] <dholbach> i flew out the net, sorry :-(
[09:01] <dholbach> the connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky
[09:02] <jgrieves> i sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :)
[09:02] <TheMuso> hahaha.
[09:02] <TheMuso> dholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility project.
[09:02] <dholbach> oh nice
[09:02] <TheMuso> Have you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff.
[09:02] <dholbach> hello PhantomsDad 
[09:03] <PhantomsDad> hello
[09:03] <dholbach> what were you talking about in the time, when i was away?
[09:03] <TheMuso> Since this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this elsewhere?
[09:03] <dholbach> i'll read the irclog
[09:03] <TheMuso> dholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs.
[09:03] <PhantomsDad> Here's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/ http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users
[09:04] <jgrieves> cool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility
[09:05] <TheMuso> jgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching.
[09:05] <TheMuso> Particularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher)
[09:05] <jgrieves> TheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever made the switch because of lack of accessibility
[09:06] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros
[09:06] <jgrieves> TheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher?
[09:06] <jgrieves> linbetwin: how well did it keep focus?  
[09:06] <TheMuso> jgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a really good idea.
[09:06] <jgrieves> TheMuso: link on information?  I haven't really heard of it before
[09:07] <linbetwin> jgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering the magnified area (no black blocks)
[09:07] <TheMuso> speech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are available.
[09:08] <jgrieves> PhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page?
[09:08] <jgrieves> TheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now
[09:08] <TheMuso> jgrieves: Indeed.
[09:08] <jgrieves> linbetwin: does it use composite?
[09:08] <TheMuso> I am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver anywhere.
[09:09] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i don't know what composite is
[09:09] <jgrieves> TheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know
[09:09] <jgrieves> linbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major back-end
[09:09] <TheMuso> jgrieves: I might have to.
[09:10] <jgrieves> TheMuso: or build your own :)
[09:10] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i really don't know
[09:11] <linbetwin> but the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag
[09:11] <linbetwin> but it can't be docked to the edge of the screen
[09:12] <jgrieves> linbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work environemtn
[09:12] <linbetwin> and it has a superfluous title bar
[09:12] <jgrieves> linbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds actually works pretty well
[09:13] <jgrieves> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview
[09:13] <TheMuso> Anyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more. :)
[09:14] <linbetwin> jgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a window at the lower bottom of the screen
[09:14] <jgrieves> TheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with you hehe
[09:15] <jgrieves> linbetwin: cool, whatever works for you.  i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used
[09:15] <jgrieves> linbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis
[09:15] <jgrieves> TheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug 
[09:16] <jgrieves> TheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these in dapper
[09:17] <jgrieves> TheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation.  I would love your input in the speech part, especially with the console
[09:17] <jgrieves> TheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and better details
[09:18] <linbetwin> jgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag?
[09:18] <jgrieves> linbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle
[09:19] <linbetwin> jgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that something that can be easily fixed?
[09:20] <jgrieves> linbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps?
[09:21] <jgrieves> linbetwin: before running a gtk app, run
[09:21] <jgrieves> export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge
[09:21] <jgrieves> then run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized" everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the AT
[09:23] <linbetwin> for ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work 
[09:23] <jgrieves> yep
[09:24] <linbetwin> in FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor
[09:25] <jgrieves> yeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS?
[09:25] <kjcole> Time for some non-Ubuntu work.  Bye...
[09:25] <linbetwin> no, i hope to do that this weekend
[09:26] <linbetwin> bye, kjcole
[09:26] <jgrieves> linbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki
[09:26] <jgrieves> i am trying to follow firefox closely
[09:26] <jgrieves> the sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused
[09:26] <linbetwin> ok
[09:27] <jgrieves> ok lunch for me! see ya
[09:28] <linbetwin> bon appetit! see ya!
[09:29] <jgrieves> hha thanks