[12:35] <manicka> mdke: I noticed the link to the UDSF was removed from the wiki frontpage and replaced with a link to the forum/delta
[12:37] <mdke> manicka, i didn't notice that, I'm subscribed to that page
[12:38] <mdke> show me
[12:39] <manicka> hang on, let me check
[12:40] <mdke> afaik, it's never been on the front page
[12:40] <mdke> the forum delta has been on there for a long time tho
[12:40] <manicka> hmmm, let me check my logs, I may have the wrong page
[12:41] <mdke> yeah, i added the link to the forum delta page in July this year
[12:41] <manicka> my apologies, I had the wrong page
[12:42] <mdke> which page?
[12:42] <manicka> Nothing has changed 
[12:42] <mdke> ah
[12:46] <manicka> that forum/delta page by the way is awful. I'm not surprised it hasn't been used very much
[12:46] <mdke> manicka, awful in what way?
[12:47] <manicka> the layout/structure
[12:48] <mdke> manicka, you understand that it is not supposed to be a place for users to learn right?
[12:49] <mdke> it is a drop-off point for people who don't want to learn how to edit the wiki properly, and just want to paste in material
[12:49] <mdke> feel free to improve it, of course
[12:49] <mdke> that's what a wiki is all about
[12:50] <manicka> okay, the drop-off point concept had escaped me
[12:50] <mdke> manicka, it's written right there on the page!
[12:50] <manicka> lol, yeah I know
[12:51] <mdke> first paragraph
[12:51] <manicka> I should have read it more closely
[12:51] <mdke> no wonder you don't like our wiki :(
[12:51] <manicka> I didn't know of it's existence until today
[12:51] <manicka> I never said I don't like the wiki
[12:52] <manicka> I use it all the time :)
[12:53] <mdke> manicka,  [23:51:53]  <@dc> charm 
[12:53] <mdke> argh
[12:53] <mdke> sorry bad paste
[12:53] <mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999
[12:53] <mdke> there is an explanation of how it is intended to work there
[12:54] <manicka> so how much of the stuff pasted there gets turned into userdocs
[12:55] <mdke> i don't know
[12:55] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Postfix was originally there
[12:56] <mdke> i guess whenever someone has some spare time
[12:56] <mdke> that page still needs a fair amount of work too :)
[12:57] <manicka> hmm, you need someone to take hold of that project and make it happen
[12:57] <manicka> if users paste stuff there then it sits there for months, then there's not much incentive
[12:58] <mdke> yeah that is very true
[12:58] <mdke> taking a look now, some of the stuff is very out of date, it's obviously been sitting there a while
[01:00] <Bonzodog> we have a different way of doing things..we have people who trawl the forums, and we work with other teams, and we get the tweaker teams to paste links in to use how-to's etc into a 'threads to doc' page. The TB team members then go through that page and start porting the stuff from the forums or sites linked to 
[01:00] <Bonzodog> once it is added it is immediately accessible by anyone
[01:00] <mdke> that's not a different way of doing things, it's the same, but more organised and with more people
[01:00] <Bonzodog> there is no approval period
[01:01] <mdke> think of what you call 'threads to doc' as the forum section on wiki.u.c, it's really the same thing
[01:02] <mdke> when it comes down to it, the only difference is that regular work is going into it on gwos
[01:02] <mdke> whereas wiki.u.c/forum is a bit more stagnant
[01:02] <Bonzodog> you see 'threads to doc' only contains links, nothing else
[01:02] <Bonzodog> also, the how-to's are forum guides, not official ways of doing things
[01:03] <manicka> Bonzo: so are the userdocs on the wiki
[01:03] <Bonzodog> they maybe a 'shortcut' that someone has found, or someones individual way of performing a well known but difficult tasks
[01:04] <mdke> i don't see how that is a difference
[01:04] <Bonzodog> we were always given to understand that the wiki would only host 'official' methods of doing things
[01:05] <mdke> Bonzodog, define "official"
[01:05] <Bonzodog> and the wiki edits would also be quarantined until they were seen as fit to add by a member of the doc team
[01:06] <mdke> Bonzodog, we prefer to only add documents to the _index_ when they are finished and are fit for users yes, but otherwise, the wiki is totally open.
[01:06] <mdke> you can create a page called "TalkingRubbish" and fill it with whatever you like, it's all open
[01:07] <Bonzodog> 'official' - methods as defined in the software manuals and faq's
[01:07] <mdke> Bonzodog, which software manuals and faqs?
[01:08] <Bonzodog> i'm trying to think of the best definition. 
[01:08] <mdke> there isn't one ;)
[01:09] <manicka> bonzo: my understanding has always been that the userdocs sections are open to anyone
[01:09] <mdke> or rather, if there is, it doesn't include even half of the material on the wiki
[01:11] <Bonzodog> you see, i've entered into this argument late, and i'm trying desperately to understand why there is a dis-agreement between the two doc teams
[01:11] <mdke> i was in it early, and I havne't got a clue
[01:12] <manicka> lol, it's confusing at times
[01:12] <Bonzodog> I do think gwos does serve a useful purpose, and that both wikis should co-exist
[01:14] <mdke> Bonzodog, reasons?
[01:15] <mdke> put them on that page :)
[01:15] <Bonzodog> we are doing
[01:15] <Bonzodog> It would be nice to be able to get launchpad recognition for being on the forum teams
[01:17] <mdke> you have to ask the forum team admins
[01:19] <jsgotangco> hey guys
[01:19] <jsgotangco> mdke, grokking hard on the wiki eh?
[01:19] <mdke> hello jerome
[01:19] <mdke> doing some tidying
[01:19] <jsgotangco> nice
[01:19] <jsgotangco> anyways
[01:20] <jsgotangco> mdke, were you able to check the logs 2 days ago about some random discussion we did here
[01:20] <mdke> i saw it
[01:20] <jsgotangco> the review thing
[01:20] <mdke> oh no, not that
[01:20] <mdke> remind me?
[01:20] <jsgotangco> well i thought of having a revew week of sorts before every milestone comes out
[01:21] <mdke> sounds like a clever idea, what would it entail?
[01:21] <jsgotangco> i thought of writing again, but a lot stuff was already written and who knows what's on the mind of the current maintainers
[01:21] <jsgotangco> i wouldn't want to be invasive when i start writing
[01:21] <jsgotangco> so i thought of writing on the doc but in comments
[01:22] <mdke> eh?
[01:22] <mdke> there is so much stuff missing from the docs still :)
[01:22] <jsgotangco> yes
[01:22] <mdke> go ahead and write!
[01:22] <jsgotangco> it was just an idea pulled off from REVU
[01:23] <mdke> hmm
[01:23] <mdke> the idea of reviewing stuff before milestones sounds good
[01:23] <jsgotangco> and i think we should properly document ourselves first :)
[01:23] <mdke> but I don't think you should get slowed down by anything
[01:23] <jsgotangco> at least update our wiki pages
[01:23] <mdke> there are already too few people working on the docs
[01:24] <jsgotangco> not at all
[01:24] <mdke> jsgotangco, sure we can work on the wiki pages, but they are actually not too bad
[01:25] <jsgotangco> mdke, i just thought of pretty wild ideas while i was drunk with 3 cans of red bull
[01:25] <mdke> hehe
[01:25] <mdke> the wiki pages do need love, definitely
[01:25] <mdke> i was thinking we should move to a subpage
[01:27] <jsgotangco> not a bad idea
[01:28] <jsgotangco> it'll still get indexed by the search engine right?
[01:28] <mdke> yes
[01:29] <mdke> ooh nice Navigation macro
[01:29] <mdke> who wrote that?
[01:29] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
[01:31] <jsgotangco> henrik or perhaps luke
[01:31] <mdke> oh it comes with Moin doh
[01:32] <mdke> looks like they've customised it tho
[01:32] <jsgotangco> there is pretty good progress with the a11y team
[01:33] <mdke> looks good
[01:33] <mdke> thats really great
[01:37] <mdke> -> bed
[01:43] <jsgotangco> later
[09:54] <k31th> Morning all
[10:05] <Madpilot> hi
[10:08] <k31th> Madpilot: watsup ?
[10:10] <Madpilot> not much, just finishing Christmas wrapping
[10:11] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: not this year, sorry :P
[10:26] <rob1> hi mdke 
[10:26] <mdke> hello :(
[10:26] <rob1> ?
[10:26] <mdke> where have you been?
[10:26] <rob1> busy
[10:27] <rob1> end of year stuff with work (admin crap), family bbqs and stuff
[10:27] <mdke> so what shall we do with the desktopguide?
[10:27] <mdke> we tried to have a meeting last week...
[10:27] <mdke> can we try again?
[10:27] <rob1> yeah
[10:27] <rob1> when?
[10:27] <mdke> rob1, whenever you can actually turn up
[10:28] <mdke> any times when you can definitely make it?
[10:28] <jsgotangco> rob1, i asked IOSN about you but they prefer people from developing countries
[10:28] <rob1> mdke, I don't remember seeing a time set
[10:28] <rob1> jsgotangco, sure np
[10:29] <mdke> rob1, it was last sunday
[10:29] <rob1> jsgotangco, thanks
[10:29] <mdke> this sunday is not an option, maybe next week?
[10:29] <rob1> umm..
[10:29] <jsgotangco> rob1, maybe you can say you're on asylum haha
[10:29] <rob1> heh
[10:30] <rob1> mdke, who apart from the two of us do you want to have attend the meeting?
[10:31] <mdke> Madpilot
[10:32] <mdke> if poss, and anyone else who will work on the desktopguide
[10:33] <rob1> maybe we need some kind of wiki page where intrested people can put their names down? perhaps put down a suggested time?
[10:34] <mdke> sure
[10:34] <mdke> but you have to be there, IMO
[10:34] <Madpilot> OgMaciel was interested too
[10:34] <mdke> so I'll work around you
[10:35] <rob1> well I have nothing on tonight if those people happen to be around (for the next 5 hours or so
[10:35] <rob1> mdke, Madpilot is around now if your keen
[10:35] <mdke> i'm at work, will have to go in a minute
[10:35] <mdke> :(
[10:35] <rob1> ah dang
[10:36] <Madpilot> it's 0136 here, need sleep soon
[10:36] <rob1> dam time difference
[10:36] <mdke> rob1, we'll go the wiki page route I guess, we can email too
[10:37] <rob1> yeah ok
[10:37] <jsgotangco> rob1, let's move elsewhere, like mdke 's pad 
[10:37] <rob1> sure why not!
[10:37] <mdke> hmm
[10:37] <jsgotangco> rob1, he's a lawyer, i'm sure he can let us bum around
[10:37] <mdke> i bet sabdfl's place is nicer
[10:37] <jsgotangco> and he can feed us forever
[10:37] <rob1> yeah, hes gotta be cashed up
[10:38] <rob1> him too
[10:38] <jsgotangco> yeah but he already has a posse while mdke still has to create one while his empire grows
[10:38] <rob1> heh
[10:38] <jsgotangco> better to start early
[10:38] <mdke> true
[10:39] <rob1> free food/money/airline tickets would help!
[10:39] <mdke> rob1, one quick thing
[10:39] <rob1> yeah
[10:39] <mdke> is the "mk" file in the desktopguide folder the up to date one?
[10:39] <mdke> if so, let's switch to using that
[10:40] <jsgotangco> mdke, adopt us and we can do ubuntu work under your name
[10:40] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:40] <rob1> no, I move it all to the proper make file
[10:40] <rob1> +d
[10:40] <mdke> rob1, i like the idea of using decentralised makefiles, it will be easier to keep the main makefile under control, and for translations
[10:40] <mdke> does that "mk" one work?
[10:40] <rob1> mdke, sure I have no problem with that
[10:41] <rob1> I think its a bit dated, might not include everything it needs to
[10:41] <mdke> ok i'll compare the two
[10:41] <rob1> you could just copy/paste from the original make file
[10:42] <rob1> whos been going screenshot crazy on svn?
[10:42] <rob1> well thumbs anyway
[10:43] <mdke> mgalvin, they are from his dapper release notes thing on the wiki
[10:44] <rob1> ah
[10:44] <mdke> ok -> work
[10:44] <mdke> later all
[10:44] <rob1> cya
[10:48] <rob1> ?
[10:48] <rob1> did you quit?
[10:48] <jsgotangco> see?
[10:48] <jsgotangco> our favorite barrister doesn't need to work!
[10:48] <jsgotangco> the money just comes in!
[10:48] <mdke> yeah my supervisor isn't in yet and i have nothing on
[10:48] <mdke> Madpilot, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP <-- rock!
[10:49] <mdke> just noticing some hot stuff on the wiki
[10:49] <jsgotangco> mdke, wow i didn't know lawyers had supervisors...
[10:49] <mdke> jsgotangco, trainee lawyers do
[10:49] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[10:49] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Madwifi-ng
[10:49] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WelcomeToPython
[10:50] <rob1> In russia, the lawyers supervise you!
[10:51] <jsgotangco> mdke, a little grease doesn't hurt
[10:51] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:51] <jsgotangco> joke
[10:51] <Madpilot> mdke: a fair bit of that page is from either the wiki or was already there; I've just done a lot of editing & a few additions
[10:53] <rob1> whats with the odd google logos on google?
[10:53] <mdke> Madpilot, isn't it ready for UserDocumentation?
[10:54] <mdke> oh its there
[10:54] <mdke> weird
[10:54] <jsgotangco> holiday doodle
[10:54] <mdke> didn't see it when I did a title search :(
[10:54] <mdke> stupid moin
[10:56] <Madpilot> mdke: no, it's there, and it's fine, but most of it isn't actually my work, that's all ;)
[10:56] <mdke> Madpilot, np, it's great anyway
[10:59] <Madpilot> mdke: you writing wiki articles for the Fridge, then?
[11:00] <mdke> ?
[11:01] <mdke> you mean, an entry about cool wiki pages?
[11:01] <Madpilot> yeah, that's what I meant...
[11:02] <mdke> that is the greatest idea ever
[11:02] <Madpilot> wasn't it brought up at the last DocTeam meeting or last CC Meeting?
[11:02] <mdke> perhaps we can include it in the docteam newsletter idea
[11:03] <rob1> umm.. someone was asking us about wiki pages the other day for the fridge
[11:03] <mdke> ah, who?
[11:03] <mdke> if we can put together a nice newsletter, we can ask for it to be posted on the fridge
[11:03] <rob1> umm..
[11:03] <rob1> c- something
[11:04] <rob1> crimsum?
[11:04] <mdke> could be?
[11:04] <mdke> i've only seen whiprush and jdub posting to the fridge
[11:05] <Madpilot> crimsun?
[11:05] <jsgotangco> mr. fridge and fridge jr.
[11:06] <rob1> might have been whiprush 
[11:06] <rob1> it was someone..
[11:06] <mdke> ok let's let them ,know we'll prepare a rocking newsletter, on the wiki, and post it around the place
[11:06] <mdke> UDN style
[11:06] <Madpilot> sounds good to me
[11:07] <rob1> yeah we (the people around at the time) did, and gave them several wiki pages to look at featuring
[11:08] <mdke> ah cool
[11:17] <Madpilot> need sleep - later, all
[11:17] <rob1> cya Madpilot 
[11:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
[11:28] <k31th> is anyone else having a problem with this mirror ?? http://seveas.ubuntulinux.nl
[11:29] <mdke> k31th, you have to try in #ubuntu about that sort of thing
[11:30] <k31th> ok
[12:37] <dholbach> are you aware of this breakage:
[12:37] <dholbach> cp libs/ubuntu-book.css ../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/
[12:37] <dholbach> Complete. Find outputs at ../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/
[12:37] <dholbach> make[1] : *** No rule to make target `dg-IT', needed by `dg'.  Stop.
[12:37] <dholbach> make[1] : Leaving directory `/tmp/buildd/ubuntu-docs-5.12.4/ubuntu'
[12:37] <dholbach> make: *** [debian/stamp-makefile-build]  Error 2
[12:54] <dholbach> i'll drop dg-IT from the dg Makefile target and put up a debdiff of the changes i did online, so you can maybe feed it back to svn
[03:38] <jsgotangco> hello
[03:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi
[03:44] <jjesse> morning :)
[03:46] <jsgotangco> hey jjesse i started hacking on your doc today
[03:48] <jjesse> jsgotangco: awesome
[03:48] <jjesse> hack away hack away all
[03:59] <jjesse> jsgotangco: lots of changes?
[04:00] <jsgotangco> sort of are you doing changes at the moment?
[04:02] <jjesse> none today
[04:03] <jsgotangco> can you hold of till monday?
[04:03] <jjesse> after work on friday i'll be !internet for a week
[04:03] <jsgotangco> great
[04:04] <jjesse> so if possible i would like to be able to sync around friday 5pm EST (i'm -5 UTC)
[04:04] <jjesse> and be able to hack away at things while i'm at my in-laws
[04:04] <jsgotangco> hmm ok i won't touch the doc then
[04:04] <jsgotangco> i'll update the quickguide instead
[04:05] <jjesse> well if you do the release notes, i gues i can work on the desktop guide ?
[04:05] <jsgotangco> sure
[04:05] <jsgotangco> i havent really looked at the other guides really
[04:06] <jjesse> anyone know if the desktopguide is ready to be worked on for kubuntu?
[04:22] <mdke> dholbach, thanks i'll fix it
[04:22] <mdke> my bad
[04:23] <jsgotangco> ?
[04:24] <mdke> jsgotangco, daniel found an error in the makefile
[04:25] <dholbach> mdke: the other thing is, the "script" in debian/README should refer to debian/README.Debian, not debian/README.debian
[04:25] <dholbach> (capital D)
[04:25] <dholbach> that's all i changed apart from adding a changelog entry
[04:25] <jsgotangco> oh is mdke packaging?
[04:27] <mdke> dholbach, ok great, stick the diff up if you like
[04:27] <mdke> jsgotangco, no...
[04:27] <mdke> dholbach, but we really need to get you svn access for this stuff :)
[04:27] <dholbach> haha ;)
[04:38] <dholbach> mdke: http://ubuntu.gplan.info/tiny.patch
[04:38] <dholbach> hmhmhmmh: http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/tiny.patch
[04:38] <dholbach> oops sorry, did the diff the wrong way around
[04:38] <dholbach> apply it with -R please
[04:39] <mdke> dholbach, i'll just do it manually, np
[04:39] <dholbach> patch -p1 -R < tiny.patch       should do
[04:39] <mdke> alrighty
[04:40] <dholbach> -p0 might too
[04:42] <jsgotangco> i see greatness at work
[04:45] <dholbach> i'm off for getting christmas presents - see you
[04:46] <jsgotangco> dholbach, later, i'll expect it from the post then
[04:46] <jsgotangco> =)
[08:00] <mgalvin> mdke_: did you start a newsletter wiki page yet?
[09:48] <jjesse> for one of the docs that i have mostly finished, switching you friend to kubuntu, i need to add accessing windows partition, is this the best spot to go? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomaticallyMountMSWindowsPartitions
[09:56] <mgalvin> jjesse: its overly verbose but looks like it will work
[09:56] <mgalvin> (at a quick glance)
[09:58] <jjesse> mgalvin: thanks, should have looked at the FAQ Guide first
[09:58] <jjesse> the one that we publish :)
[09:58] <mgalvin> :)