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=== Topic for #edubuntu: The discussion channel for Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu, download: http://releases.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/5.10/ | Mailing List http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel | Wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org | Website http://www.edubuntu.org | MEETING: there will be NO meeting on 28 Dec and 4 Jan. | Read before installing: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuInstallNotes | see also #edubuntu-es and #edubuntu-de
=== Topic (#edubuntu): set by ogra at Fri Dec 16 10:22:09 2005
=== #edubuntu  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
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[05:50] <mhz> pitux: feliz navidad
[05:50] <pitux> mhz: feliz navidad para ti tambien y tus seres queridos
[05:50] <mhz> gracias
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[06:04] <[danger] > Hello.  Could someone direct me to a place where I can get help creating a boot disk for edubuntu?
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[06:41] <MrMazda> you can't make a boot floppy
[06:41] <MrMazda> kernel won't fit on a floppy
[06:42] <MrMazda> use the install CD to repair if necessary
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[06:46] <tclong> greets!
[06:54] <[danger] > hi, tclong.  Are you still around?
[06:54] <tclong> yep
[06:55] <[danger] > are you pretty experienced with edubuntu?
[06:56] <tclong> heh. Not really. I'm still getting it set up on my son's computer. I'm working on the wireless network card. But I have ubuntu running on my laptop and debian on my office server.
[06:57] <tclong> What's up? I might be able to help.
[06:58] <[danger] > I'm trying to set it up on my son's computer as well, but I'm having trouble booting off the cd-rom.  I followed the suggestion of the the readme file in the install folder on the disk and created a bootable floppy containing the Smart Boot MAnager, but I can't get it to boot off the CD-ROM.
[06:59] <tclong> what happens when you try to boot directly from the CD-ROM?
[07:01] <[danger] > Nothing.  The computer has ubuntu installed and simply defaults to that.  I double-checked the BIOS to make sure that it looked to the CD before the hard drive, but it defaults to the hard drive nonetheless.
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[07:03] <[danger] > Is there a certain way of burning a CDR to make it bootable?  I downloaded edubuntu and burned the CD on a Mac using Toast, so it's entirely possible that the CDR is not bootable.
[07:05] <tclong> I know that in Nero on a pc you can specify a bootable system cd.
[07:05] <tclong> But I've never burned on a Mac before.
[07:06] <tclong> but that shouldn't matter.
[07:06] <tclong> the edubuntu cd image should contain everything for the system to recognize it as a boot cd.
[07:07] <[danger] > I thought that making an exact copy of the .iso file I downloaded was all that mattered.  I'm pretty sure that's what I did.  I'll try it again using a different program.  The linux box is relatively old, so I wasn't sure if it was entirely capable of reading the .iso cd-rom; hence the floppy with SBM.
[07:08] <tclong> I actually had to swap out the CD-ROM drive in my son's machine (HP Pavilion) with a CD-ROM drive from my work computer in order to get the install to work.
[07:10] <tclong> btw: is this edubuntu machine a christmas present for your son?
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[07:19] <[danger] > yes it is a xmas present for my son.
[07:19] <[danger] > I've already resolved myself to leaving ubuntu on it if I can't get it work, but I'd really like to get edubuntu on there. He's six.
[07:20] <[danger] > I'm buring another cd right now using a different program just to make sure it copies the image exactly.
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[07:33] <tclong> \o/ unbelievable!!! My son is six as well, and this is a present for him, and for all our kids really (we have 4).  But I really want to get edubuntu working on here, and I'm very close to getting the wireless card going. After that, I need to try to get vmware installed so he can play his windows cdrom games on here.
[07:36] <[danger] > cool.
[07:55] <[danger] > The new CD I burned work.  I'm running the edubuntu installer right now.  Woohoo!
[07:59] <tclong> awesome!
[08:10] <tclong> I'm running into roadblocks with this wireless card.
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[08:23] <[danger] > I wish I could help you out, but I have little confidence in my linux skills.  Have you tried talking to anyone in the #ubuntu channel?
[08:24] <crimsun> [danger] : you can also install Edubuntu on an existing Ubuntu configuration by installing the 'edubuntu-desktop' package.
[08:24] <crimsun> (well, the desktop portion of Edubuntu, that is)
[08:26] <[danger] > Too late!  I'm already running the installation.  It seems to be going incredibly slowly and I haven't the foggiest idea why.
=== tclong is about to quit.... Can't get this !@#$%-ing wireless card to work.
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[12:54] <lucasvo> good morning!
[12:55] <writer> good evening
[01:00] <mhz> good morning vieeeeettttnnnaaaammmm
[01:00] <mhz> ;)
[01:00] <mhz> moin you all
[01:02] <lucasvo> ah, real music :D
[01:03] <mhz> lucasvo: merry xmas
[01:03] <lucasvo> I've had enough xmas
=== lucasvo got the presents already in the evening, it is normal in CH
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[04:26] <lucasvo>   edubuntu-desktop: Depends: evolution-plugins but it is not going to be installed
[04:26] <lucasvo> when installing edubuntu-desktop
[04:26] <lucasvo> Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
[04:26] <lucasvo> requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
[04:26] <lucasvo> distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
[04:26] <lucasvo> or been moved out of Incoming.
[04:31] <zakame> whoa
[04:34] <Yagisan> impressive
[04:34] <Yagisan> lucasvo: Is that from the cd or from a cross-graded ubuntu install ?
[04:37] <lucasvo> Yagisan: I installed edubuntu-> upgrade to dapper-> installed xubuntu -> I want to install edubuntu
[04:38] <lucasvo> Yagisan:  you can tell me how I can set default wm to metacity ?
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[04:39] <Yagisan> lucasvo: "upgrade to dapper" may be the problem. evolution-plugins may not have been rebuilt yet
[04:39] <lucasvo> hi ogra_ibook 
[04:39] <ogra_ibook> hi
[04:39] <lucasvo> how can I set metacity as default wm?
[04:39] <Yagisan> lucasvo: sorry, I don't know how to set the wm to metacity
[04:39] <ogra_ibook> it *is* the default w m
[04:40] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: not after a xubuntu installation
[04:40] <lucasvo> :(
[04:40] <Yagisan> ogra_ibook: he went "edubuntu-> upgrade to dapper-> installed xubuntu -> I want to install edubuntu"
[04:40] <Yagisan> seems to have broke something.
[04:40] <zakame> oh
[04:41] <ogra_ibook> sudo update-alternatives --config x-window-manager should do the trick
[04:41] <ogra_ibook> in case xfce respects ubuntu/debian standards
[04:41] <Yagisan> lucasvo: could you try "sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude upgrade" then try installing edubuntu-desktop again
[04:41] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: thanks
[04:42] <lucasvo>       5        /usr/bin/xfwm4
[04:42] <lucasvo> it does
[04:42] <Yagisan> that may fix your evolution-plugins can't be found issue
[04:42] <ogra_ibook> edubuntu-desktop isnt installable currently afaik
[04:42] <lucasvo> :D
[04:42] <ogra_ibook> openoffice is broken 
[04:42] <Yagisan> ogra_ibook: openoffice is always broken
[04:42] <ogra_ibook> heh
[04:42] <lucasvo> Yagisan: why?
[04:43] <lucasvo> Yagisan: is there any alternative?
[04:43] <lucasvo> koffice? *ggg*
[04:43] <Yagisan> esp on amd64, it's the only app I can't the uim to work with
[04:43] <Yagisan> lucasvo: If you are i386 it works better then eg amd64
[04:44] <Yagisan> lucasvo: and the java issues - don't get me started on that
[04:45] <ogra_ibook> it doesnt work at all on amd64
[04:45] <ogra_ibook> costed me days to get my edubuntu presentation working ...
[04:46] <lucasvo> yeah, you are right, java is crap
[04:46] <ogra_ibook> as soon as you add any image to an impress presentation it goes into an infinite loop of crashing and restarting
[04:47] <Yagisan> ogra_ibook: spare a thought for us users too. I get the infinite loop of death too, and I mainly use writer :(
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[04:59] <Yagisan> bbl
[05:02] <pc22> hey Yagisan 
[05:07] <Yagisan> me waves at pc22
[05:07] <pc22> happy holidays
=== Yagisan realises it's getting harder to type with age
[05:07] <pc22> lol
[05:07] <pc22> really?
[05:08] <Yagisan> pc22: yep, I feel really old for my 24 years
[05:09] <Yagisan> happy holidays to you too pc22
[05:10] <pc22> lol
[05:10] <pc22> youre just 24?
[05:10] <pc22> very young
[05:10] <pc22> unless you have kids
[05:10] <Yagisan> yes, 24, wife, 2 kids, and my own business
[05:11] <Yagisan> I'm old I tell you
[05:11] <Yagisan> I should retire, less stressful
[05:11] <pc22> lol
[05:11] <pc22> thats why im not married yet
[05:12] <Yagisan> pc22: It does have it's perks :-D
[05:12] <pc22> having family have its rewards but not til i guess im ready
[05:13] <Yagisan> pc22: you'll be ready one day, but don't leave it too late, or you'll be gone before the kids are out of school
[05:13] <pc22> i dont envy some of my friends tho but i think i still can manage for a few more years
[05:13] <pc22> how old do you think is great for marrying
[05:15] <Yagisan> pc22: honestly, when you and your partner both feel it is right. It's my 4th anniversary in 2006, but we've been together since 1999
[05:15] <pc22> cool
[05:16] <pc22> im happy for u
[05:16] <Yagisan> pc22: so we had a few years to see if we were compatible
[05:16] <pc22> aw?
[05:16] <pc22> meaning youre not married yet?
[05:16] <Yagisan> pc22: yes we are married. were married in 2002
[05:17] <pc22> why do still have to check if ur not compatible?
[05:17] <pc22> you have to make it compatible
[05:18] <Yagisan> pc22: but we lived together before then. It would be awful to marry someone, but then discover you can't live with them because they and you don't get along as well you thought.
[05:18] <Yagisan> perhaps because someone can't keep their pants on eg
=== Yagisan finally has some time for a quiet dinner with wife @ 3am 
[05:20] <pc22> why what time is it there?
[05:20] <Yagisan> 3:20am on Mon Dec 26
[05:20] <Yagisan> bbl
[05:21] <pc22> ok 
[05:21] <pc22> be here
[05:21] <pc22> enjoy
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[06:43] <Yagisan> re
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[08:12] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: 
[08:12] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: sorry
[08:12] <ogra_ibook> :)
[08:14] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: is there any way how to use an iBook as a thin client?
[08:15] <lucasvo> maybe without netboot? 
[08:15] <lucasvo> just loggin in over X?
[08:15] <ogra_ibook> mine doesnt support netbooting it seems
[08:15] <ogra_ibook> in the option menu i only get the HD offered
[08:16] <ogra_ibook> so you'll have to resort to rom-o-matic i think
[08:16] <lucasvo> hm, I mean with full feautured System on disk, which allows to log onto ltsp server
[08:18] <ogra_ibook> i dont think that will work ... youre missing the sshkey etc
[08:18] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: can you figure out what's the NIC ID of your iBooks Nic is?
[08:19] <ogra_ibook> UniNorth 2 GMAC (Sun GEM)
[08:19] <lucasvo> doesn't find anything :(
[08:19] <lucasvo> what about installing the chroot directly onto the disc?
[08:20] <lucasvo> maybe dual boot with full feautured OS as well
[08:21] <ogra_ibook> nope
[08:21] <ogra_ibook> as i said, that wont work, you miss the sshkey and some other stuff
[08:21] <lucasvo> sshkey?
[08:22] <ogra_ibook> sure for ldm
[08:23] <ogra_ibook> additionally some of the bindmount magic and stuff thats done by the bootscript ... you can try it, but it will take you a lot of work to adjust all the scripts ...
[08:24] <lucasvo> hm :(
[08:26] <mhz_BBL> ogra_ibook: netbooting is activated by holding 'n' key when booting
[08:27] <mhz_BBL> ogra_ibook: merry xmas, BTW :)
[08:27] <mhz_BBL> lucasvo: have you tried just xforwarding
[08:27] <ogra_ibook> mhz_BBL, same to you :)
[08:27] <mhz_BBL> thx
[08:28] <ogra_ibook> i thought it must show up in the menu i get if i hold down the option key on boot
[08:29] <mhz_BBL> IIRC, both my powerbook and stolen-ibook could netboot pressing n
[08:29] <mhz_BBL> :)
[08:29] <ogra_ibook> i'll try next time i reboot
[08:29] <mhz_BBL> option key is for OSes
[08:29] <mhz_BBL> or HD
[08:29] <ogra_ibook> ah
[08:29] <mhz_BBL> yup, I am 100% sure
[08:29] <mhz_BBL> (well, 99%) ;)
[08:30] <ogra_ibook> heh
[08:30] <mhz_BBL> remember Apple is KISS
[08:30] <mhz_BBL> so option = optional
[08:30] <mhz_BBL> and n = netboot
[08:30] <mhz_BBL> and c =cdrom
[08:30] <mhz_BBL> :D
[08:31] <lucasvo> mhz_BBL: cool
[08:31] <mhz_BBL> and f + other key = firmaware
[08:31] <mhz_BBL> lucasvo: cool? x forwarding works from Apple to x86?
[08:32] <lucasvo> I meant netboot
[08:32] <mhz_BBL> oh,
[08:32] <mhz_BBL> :0
[08:32] <mhz_BBL> yes
[08:32] <mhz_BBL> cool :)
[08:32] <lucasvo> hm, the netboot sign comes
[08:33] <mhz_BBL> lucasvo: from Apple to x86?
[08:33] <lucasvo> k.a.
[08:33] <mhz_BBL> lucasvo: from Apple to x86 server?
[08:33] <lucasvo> I don't know
[08:33] <lucasvo> k.a. -> german: no clue
[08:33] <mhz_BBL> lucasvo: y.t.c
[08:34] <mhz_BBL> lucasvo: y.t.c -> Chilean = ya te cache!
[08:34] <lucasvo> :D
=== mhz_BBL misses an apple box.. a little bit.
[08:36] <mhz_BBL> .oO(esp. because I was left with a SCSI external CD-writer I have no port to use with)
[08:36] <ogra_ibook> ppc on x86 servers isnt supported yet (thats one reason i bought this ibook)
[08:37] <lucasvo> ah
[08:37] <lucasvo> anybody using SIP here?
[08:37] <ogra_ibook> and the ltsp-server package doesnt work on ppc yet as well ..
[08:41] <mhz_BBL> yup, now that you mention it, ogra, I remember one of the LTSP guys told me long ago that they had no PPC boxes to try on
[08:41] <mhz_BBL> long ago = 1 or 2 years
[08:41] <ogra_ibook> they have now, and 4.1 does work with ppc
[08:41] <mhz_BBL> however, what about XDMCP or x-forwarding?
[08:42] <ogra_ibook> pfft
[08:42] <mhz_BBL> x is x? no matter what arch. we're talking about?
=== mhz_BBL is now known as mhz
[08:43] <ogra_ibook> sure that would work, but you shoudl use 4.1 then
[08:43] <mhz> okis
[08:44] <mhz> at least there are options.
[08:44] <ogra_ibook> dapper should get there 
[08:46] <mhz> good
[09:00] <lucasvo> Mark Shuttleworth currently lives in space but plans to visit the Earth again someday soon. If you need money or anything, e-mail him and ask.
[09:01] <lucasvo> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/clique
[09:12] <mhz> lucasvo: LOL!
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[09:15] <alejandro> hi
[09:26] <mhz> ogra_ibook: I am truly sorry, believe me but I have my serious doubts now.
[09:26] <lucasvo> mhz: of what?
[09:26] <ogra_ibook> mhz, i cant tell you much more, #launchpad is the palce  
=== alejandro is now known as Lord_Athur
[09:27] <mhz> I dont' want to make a huge deal but it's my head, my last 3-4 years, promoting and encouraging people to understand the importance of fredom to access and knowledge
[09:27] <mhz> ogra_ibook: are LP devel ubuntu members?
[09:28] <ogra_ibook> some of them ...
[09:28] <mhz> lucasvo: it's a personal conflict here. I didnt know LP was propietary software and not free software.
[09:29] <ogra_ibook> note that mark puts about 10X as much money into launchpad than into ubuntu
[09:29] <lucasvo> mhz: aha #launchpad
[09:29] <lucasvo> mhz: I mean #ubuntu-devel
[09:29] <mhz> yup, lucasvo 
[09:29] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: why?
[09:30] <ogra_ibook> because he pays far more devs for it and ubuntu already brings some small revenue in
[09:30] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: ubuntu looks much more complicated than launchpad? what is that complex in launchpad?
[09:32] <ogra_ibook> launchpad is way more development effort 
[09:32] <mhz> ogra_ibook: I understand the money issue very well. I have spent almost all my savings in spreading the importance of freedom of access, esp. in sub-developed countries (latin america)
[09:33] <ogra_ibook> lucasvo, launchpad is targeted to be the core of the whole OSS development one day
[09:33] <mhz> hence my complaint, oliver
[09:34] <mhz> and i know you are not responsible
[09:34] <lucasvo> like the commercial patch management of the kernel?
[09:34] <ogra_ibook> nope
[09:34] <ogra_ibook> quite different 
[09:34] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: in what way?
[09:35] <ogra_ibook> imagine sourceforge, but better and newer 
[09:35] <ogra_ibook> and a lot of new featurs
[09:35] <mhz> ogra_ibook: ok, i'll try to calm down and think as much as i can. I know bottom line is 'deal with it or don't use it'.
[09:36] <lucasvo> and is it the goal of sabdfl to get more money with launchpad or should he just earn enough to live?
[09:36] <mhz> ogra_ibook: but so far i feel very frustrated and stupid because I was so blind.
[09:36] <ogra_ibook> mhz, it wont make the software nonfree, as sourceforges nonfree status does it make now ...
[09:37] <mhz> i know, it's a matter or principles to me.
[09:37] <lucasvo> mhz: actually it is the same sort of distribution than SuSE or redhat :D
[09:37] <mhz> indded
[09:37] <mhz> thats why i used Debian for almost 3 years, only
=== mhz sighs
=== mhz is now known as mhz_thinking
[09:38] <ogra_ibook> mhz_thinking, sourceforge is 100% nonfree software ... 
[09:38] <mhz_thinking> i dont help sourceforge
[09:39] <ogra_ibook> apart from the apache it runs on
[09:39] <mhz_thinking> my point is I have always put tons of effort and my own money to help freedom
[09:39] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: http://ronja.twibright.com/development/philosophy.php
[09:39] <ogra_ibook> nope, but you use tons of software thats developed on sourceforge
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[09:40] <ogra_ibook> as long as the software developed on it is free and as long as we got the promise that launchpad will be GPLed too, i wont really care
[09:40] <lucasvo> as long as we got the promise that launchpad will be GPLed !
[09:40] <ogra_ibook> mark is not the type of guy who breaky his promises
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[09:40] <lucasvo> is there any signed paper from makr?
[09:41] <ogra_ibook> not a signed paper ... but he states it in every talk he holds about it
[09:41] <lucasvo> ah, ok
[09:41] <lucasvo> good
[09:41] <mhz_thinking> ogra_ibook: that's why I am thinking because I am very 'pationate' to what i do, so I need to breathe and think.
[09:41] <ogra_ibook> its just that he needs to get some revenue back for the huge amount of money he puts in there 
[09:42] <mhz_thinking> i know
[09:42] <lucasvo> ogra_ibook: I understand that
[09:42] <mhz_thinking> i understand
[09:42] <mhz_thinking> we all do
[09:42] <ogra_ibook> eventually this money will come in by the services launchpad offers ...
[09:42] <ogra_ibook> then you can GPL it ..
[09:42] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: I was thinking of beginning to develop an opensource PC and boostrapping it :D
[09:43] <mhz_thinking> hehe
[09:43] <lucasvo> it would then be totally free
=== mhz_thinking reading
[09:44] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: "For various kinds of companies, open-source really represents cost reduction. It also represents a wide market for developers themselves, to customize the applications for the needs of the clients - which is a nice alternative to the one-size-fits-all commercial
[09:44] <lucasvo> oh
[09:44] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: http://wiki.twibright.com/index.php/UserControlledTechnology
[09:45] <mhz_thinking> lucasvo: I am still trying to get money to make U$250 laptops, 10 inches, 20 GB, 256 RAM
[09:45] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: olpc?
[09:45] <mhz_thinking> ?
[09:45] <lucasvo> one-laptop-per-child
[09:45] <lucasvo> too bad that ubuntu won't be used for it :(
[09:46] <mhz_thinking> hmmm, sort of.
[09:46] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: go to MIT
[09:47] <mhz_thinking> lucasvo: my perspective is bit diff. I want to give owners the chance to earn the laptop. How? Both a child and a parent come to a 10-day training where we teach them to assemble the parts and install GnuLinux on it. Then they take the laptop home.
[09:48] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: this is cool
[09:48] <mhz_thinking> so I give laptops per family not per child :)
[09:48] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: have you ever asked mark?
[09:48] <mhz_thinking> lucasvo: thx
[09:49] <mhz_thinking> lucasvo: nope, not yet
[09:50] <mhz_thinking> but as I have not made money in the last 2 or 3 months, and things dont look good for january or february in Chile, my mind is going towards the direction of getting ajob instead of trying to change the world (at least until april) :(
[09:50] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: how do you make money?
[09:52] <mhz_thinking> I provide training, help schools adopt technology, do some translations. 
[09:53] <mhz_thinking> well, guys. I need to breathe and get a coffe to meditate about this simple situation that causes me trouble.
=== mhz_thinking Be back soon
[10:15] <mhz_thinking> lucasvo: BTW, nice project! UserControlledTechnology
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[10:18] <signifer135> hey
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[10:50] <lucasvo> waaaaa
[10:51] <lucasvo> my sister just turned off my ltsp server
[10:51] <lucasvo> by clicking on Turn off this computer
[10:51] <lucasvo> on an ltsp client, as everybody else would o
[10:51] <lucasvo> mhz_thinking: yes it is :D
[10:51] <lucasvo> http://ronja.twibright.com/installations.php < proves it works
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[11:42] <Lord_Athur> hi+
=== Lord_Athur [n=alejandr@pc-30-37-214-201.cm.vtr.net]  has joined #edubuntu
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> hi there
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> I put the following command:
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> alejandro@NAOMY:~$ sudo mkisofs -b /home/alejandro/B/isolinux/isolinux.bin -c /home/alejandro/B/isolinux/boot.cat -J -R -o /home/alejandro/banux.iso /home/alejandro/B     
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> to make an iso image
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> /home/alejandro/B is the folder of the distro
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> but the terminal sent me the error:
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> INFO:   UTF-8 character encoding detected by locale settings.
[11:44] <Lord_Athur>         Assuming UTF-8 encoded filenames on source filesystem,
[11:44] <Lord_Athur>         use -input-charset to override.
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> call to search_tree_file with an absolute path, stripping
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> initial path separator. Hope this was intended...
[11:44] <Lord_Athur> mkisofs: Uh oh, I cant find the boot catalog directory '/home/alejandro/B/isolinux'!
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[11:45] <signifer123> hey guys
[11:45] <Lord_Athur> what should I do?
[11:45] <signifer123> gain
[11:45] <signifer123> soz
[11:45] <Lord_Athur> hi signifer123 
[11:45] <Lord_Athur> is there anybody?
[11:46] <signifer123> like 18 of them
[11:46] <signifer123> jsut idling though
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[11:47] <signifer123> what you trying to do?
[11:52] <Lord_Athur> ogra, +
[11:52] <Lord_Athur> help me please