[01:21] <Mez> how broken is dapper atm ?
[01:25] <slomo> Mez: you will die a long, painfull death when updating ;P
[01:25] <Mez> slomo - why ?
[01:25] <slomo> Mez: well, works fine for me and many others :)
[01:26] <Mez> good :D
[01:26] <Mez> seeing as there arent man big changes anywho
[01:26] <slomo> mono on ppc is currently the only big breakage i know about
[01:26] <Mez> or have a PPC
[01:27] <Mez> blobwars was updated
[01:27] <hub> locales
[01:27] <hub> is broken 
[01:27] <hub> totally
[01:27] <slomo> hm, works for me
[01:27] <hub> still does not install here
[01:27] <Mez> hey hub
[01:28] <Mez> hows things going
[01:28] <hub> Mez: fine
[01:29] <Mez> coo coo :D
[01:29] <Mez> hows the 770 ?
[01:29] <hub> fine
[01:31] <Mez> cool 
[01:31] <Mez> :D
[01:32] <Mez> hub - have any news on the updates to n-m for dapper (aka anything been done yet)
[01:32] <tseng> Mez: 0.5.1 is in dapper..
[01:33] <hub> it does not install
[01:33] <hub> filed a bug
[01:33] <Mez> ah lol
[01:33] <Mez> so that's gonna break :D
[01:33] <mjg59> hub: There's a dbus transition going on
[01:33] <Mez> lol
[01:33] <Mez> mjg59, and now you tell me :D how much is broke for it ?
[01:33] <hub> mjg59: nope,
[01:33] <mjg59> Mez: I don't know. Try installing the current dbus and find out
[01:34] <mjg59> hub: I'm running the 0.5.1 packages from dapper
[01:34] <hub> mjg59: it is a different proble,
[01:34] <Mez> I'm upgrading to dapper :D
[01:34] <hub> malone 6114
[01:35] <Mez> hub
[01:35] <Mez> turn it off
[01:35] <Mez> i would for mine but i dont know how to for AUPS
[01:35] <mjg59> hub: Ah, right
[01:35] <hub> apparently it does not completely
[01:35] <mjg59> hub: Hang on...
[01:36] <hub> tpconfig -t 0
[01:36] <hub> just disable gesture
[01:36] <Mez> tpconfig: command not found :D
[01:36] <hub> Mez: universe package
[01:37] <hub> only for thinkpad
[01:37] <Mez> hub - ah
[01:37] <Mez> I'm not using a thinkpad :D
[01:37] <Mez> lol
[01:37] <Mez> and /me pokes tseng - the DB is locked atm
[01:37] <Mez> upgrading nto dapper
[01:37] <mjg59> Mez: Did you actually laugh out loud then?
[01:37] <tseng> apt-cache doesnt need a lock.
[01:38] <Mez> It was more a chuckle
[01:38] <mjg59> hub: Interesting. n-m still generates NetworkManager-named.conf, but as far as I can tell, nothing uses it
[01:38] <mjg59> (hngh)
[01:38] <hub> mjg59: the bind user is missing
[01:39] <mjg59> hub: No, that's not the bug
[01:39] <hub> oh
[01:39] <mjg59>     - Do not depend on bind9 being installed.
[01:39] <mjg59> (Except it does)
[01:39] <mjg59> Right. named support has (supposedly) been removed
[01:39] <mjg59> So what's generating this file...
[01:40] <mjg59> Oh, nothing
[01:40] <mjg59> It's ancient
[01:40] <mjg59> Tum-te-tum...
[01:42] <Mez> hub
[01:42] <Mez> any idea how to get past the "locales" problem?
[01:43] <hub> if I had...
[01:43] <hub> I don't
[01:45] <Mez> mjg59, apologies - I'm just trying to get a stable system so I can get to work and stop bugzilla moaning at me about MOM merges
[01:50] <mjg59> hub: Fixed n-m will be there once the buildds have dealt with it
[01:50] <Mez> whens the planned move to LP btw?
[01:52] <hub> mjg59: cool
[01:52] <hub> I could have fixed, but was doing other things
[02:01] <Mez> hmm - the locales probem is an easy fix ...
[02:01] <Mez> someones even posted a patch
[02:01] <Mez> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=5465
[02:20] <hub> Mez: that is not the problem I have
[02:21] <Mez> what problem do you have hub ?
[02:22] <hub> bugz 21489
[02:25] <Burglaptop> hub: remove locales packages, reinstall 2.3.6 version, upgrade to 2.3.7 and then reinstlal locales
[02:25] <hub> Burglaptop: were do I find 2.3.6? :-)
[02:26] <hub> package is removed already
[02:27] <raphink> elmo: could you add me to katie's whitelist pls ?
[02:29] <hub> Burglaptop: I'm installing the one from Breezy
[02:41] <hub> and now locale-gen fails
[02:43] <hub> commented the bug
[02:56] <floam> is ATAPI supposed to be working on serial ata via chipsets?
[02:56] <floam> (in dapper)
[03:55] <psusi> can anyone point me to where I can read up on how automounting of external media works?  I'm trying to fix it to correctly mount a packet writing mode udf cdrw as read/write
[04:01] <Mez> psusi, #ubuntu
[04:06] <psusi> seems to be a bit too technical/theoretical for over there... been trying...
[04:06] <googleguy> psusi, Ask on #debian.
[04:07] <googleguy> psusi, Much more technical users in #debian on average
[04:07] <hub> psusi: here is for ubuntu development
[04:08] <googleguy> I'm going to guess it's known that the locales package pre-install script dies and kills dist-upgrade, right?
[04:08] <googleguy> Or should I file a bug
[04:14] <psusi> well, I'm kind of trying to participate in ubuntu development... packet writing would be nice to support in dapper ;)
[04:14] <psusi> and the guys in #debian seem to have a chip on their shoulder about ubuntu
[04:15] <Mez> googleguy - its know and theres a simple fix - when it dies its asking for a folder right?
[04:15] <Mez> just make the folder
[04:15] <Mez> psusi
[04:15] <Mez> some of them do some of them dont
[04:15] <Mez> but you're asking for support :D#
[04:15] <Mez> which isnt what this channel is for
[04:15] <psusi> well, I'm really asking for some pointers to more information to aid development ;)
[04:16] <googleguy> Mez, I installed flight 2 and did apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade. It fails on that package and kills the update. I am trying to see if I need to file a bug against the locales package
[04:16] <Mez> googleguy, what error does it fail with ?
[04:16] <psusi> I'm sure there's some kind of daemon that notices the disk and runs pmount... and can be configured somehow.. but I can't figure out where to read up on that...
[04:17] <psusi> hal seems to just detect it... so there has to be something that listens to hal's notices on dbus and runs pmount
[04:19] <googleguy> Mez, It just says that the pre-install failed with exit status 1
[04:19] <googleguy> Meaning something is broken
[04:19] <googleguy> Fresh install of flight 2
[04:19] <Mez> googleguy - no other error ?
[04:19] <googleguy> nope
[04:19] <Mez> like- before that
[04:19] <Mez> saying something about a file not found ?
[04:22] <googleguy> Mez, Sorry, no errors
[04:24] <Mez> weird
[04:31] <googleguy> very
[04:56] <hub> googleguy: see bugzilla bug 21489
[04:56] <hub> googleguy: with the work around
[04:56] <hub> Mez: that is the exact same bug
[04:56] <hub> Mez: form a flight 2 CD it fails because /etc/local.gen has 0 size
[04:57] <hub> googleguy: put the following line into /etc/locale.gen
[04:57] <hub> en_CA.UTF-8 UTF-8
[04:57] <hub> googleguy: and try again to install the package
[05:00] <googleguy> hub, You are my new hero
[05:01] <hub> googleguy: I got annoyed by it as well
[05:01] <hub> it is from Flight CD installation
[05:02] <googleguy> yes
[05:02] <womble> Even shorter: "echo en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8" >> /etc/locale.gen; /usr/sbin/locale-gen
[05:03] <googleguy> womble, I used echo to put it in there just like you did. I just didn't run locale-gen
[05:04] <womble> locale-gen is the command of interest.  Quicker than reinstalling the package just to get it to run that one command anyway. <grin>
[05:04] <hub> womble: the problem is that in my case locales was NOT installing at all
[05:05] <womble> hub: locales fails to install if you have an empty /etc/locale.gen?  How... quaint.
[05:05] <hub> womble: yep
[05:05] <hub> womble: and that is the case from a Flight CD install from scratch
[05:06] <hub> womble: I installed my new laptop Friday
[05:06] <hub> and got into trouble with that
[05:14] <Sepheebear> invoke-rc.d looks to be b0rked when it comes to cups
[05:15] <googleguy> it's pretty disconcerning for a new dev trying out flight cd2 to update and find that the update fails
[05:15] <googleguy> time to reboot... the update is finished and I got a shiny new kernel
[05:16] <Sepheebear> maybe its just cupsys
[06:51] <Mez> anyone around who wants to upload a package to main for me ?
[07:05] <Mez> cupsys is a lil borked :D but it;s easy to fix
[07:14] <rikai> hey, cool running locale-gen solved my problem too >.>;
[07:36] <donna> hi, i have a problem with my PCMCIA modem. i insert the card and syslog reports all is well. a check of /var/run/stab confirms this with "0 serial serial_cs 0 ttyS0 4 64". however when i go to dial i get a               "Can't get terminal parameters: Input/output error" next line "Connect script failed. any ideas?
[07:43] <Sepheebear> Mez: what's up with cupsys?
[07:43] <Mez> Sepheebear, wont uninstall when trying to dist-upgrade :D
[07:44] <Mez> errors out on trying to stop it
[07:44] <Mez> cause the init.d script fails
[07:44] <Mez> I just erm ...
[07:44] <Mez> forced the init.dscript not to error out
[07:44] <Sepheebear> ooh
[07:45] <Sepheebear> so gotta rip it out and put it back in eh? sounds good
[08:08] <netdur> I don't know where to ask! so... do anyone knows where to read more about "Custom Versions" offer from Canonical?
[08:10] <Burglaptop> netdur: custom versions?
[08:11] <netdur> ah! like what hp did
[08:12] <Burglaptop> netdur: afaik, the custom version of Ubuntu that HP did was merged into Breezy
[08:13] <Burglaptop> netdur: hence there are no current "custom versions" of Ubuntu at the moment, that I know of
[08:13] <Burglaptop> desrt: you having fun with abiword?
[08:13] <desrt> no.
[08:13] <desrt> just saw your bug report :)
[08:13] <Burglaptop> I promised hub I would file that report at UBZ
[08:14] <desrt> i was talking to him about it earlier and confirmed it
[08:14] <netdur> I mean, people who wants *own* "custom versions"... where to go?
[08:14] <desrt> but you must realise that abw -> odt -> abw again is a lossy process
[08:14] <Burglaptop> desrt: yes, I realize that
[08:14] <Burglaptop> you seen my long running blog conversation with the abiword developers
[08:14] <Burglaptop> ?
[08:14] <desrt> ya.  that's what drew my attention to your bug
[08:15] <Burglaptop> for people so smart, they seem not to get it
[08:15] <Burglaptop> maybe I am not explaining myself well enough
[08:16] <desrt> everyone understands your argument
[08:16] <desrt> but there are serious technical problems with it
[08:16] <Burglaptop> yes, I realize that. I am arguing on a social level, not a technical one
[08:16] <desrt> abiword switching to odt by default is throwing their users to the wolves
[08:17] <Burglaptop> remember, I do marketing/sales and documentation, so technical is not my area of expertise
[08:17] <desrt> socially i agree with you
[08:17] <desrt> but the technology just _isn't there_ right now
[08:17] <desrt> odt-by-default is great... if and only if the odt import/export works at least as well as the native file format (which it currently does not)
[08:18] <Burglaptop> that is why the bug report is conditional on when the technical side is there
[08:18] <desrt> right
[08:18] <desrt> you're sort of giving the appearance of suggesting that this be done now/soon
[08:18] <Burglaptop> ah, ok
[08:19] <Burglaptop> I should be given the impression that it the problem should be dealt with now
[08:19] <Burglaptop> s/given/giving
[08:19] <desrt> to quote your bug report:
[08:19] <desrt> Abiword 2.4.2 is going to included OpenDocument support finally. Therefor
[08:19] <desrt> abiword should now save to OpenDocument format by default, rather than .abiword.
[08:19] <Burglaptop> yes
[08:19] <Burglaptop> if 2.4.2 cannot do that, then that should be noted in teh bug report
[08:20] <desrt> i noted that.
[08:20] <Burglaptop> excellent, thankjs'
[08:20] <desrt> it's definitely an interesting question
[08:21] <desrt> i mean....
[08:21] <desrt> when people talk about websites/pages they don't say "html document"
[08:21] <desrt> it's just a webpage
[08:21] <Amaranth> saving in odt isn't lossless
[08:21] <desrt> having the same for word processor documents would be very nice
[08:21] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: sadly, we are discovering this
[08:21] <desrt> i agree with you completely there
[08:22] <Amaranth> and iirc the standard for excelalike doesn't even mention how to do math
[08:22] <Amaranth> so you either read OOo source to find how they do it or you make up your own way
[08:22] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: yes, another bug in ODT. But not a reason to prevent it from becoming a standard
[08:23] <Amaranth> Burglaptop: If Microsoft is serious about their standard I'd rather use it.
[08:23] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: why?
[08:23] <Amaranth> Burglaptop: They 1) know what they're doing and 2) will actually support it in Office
[08:23] <Burglaptop> have you seen the actual xml from docx?
[08:24] <Burglaptop> it is nasty and doesn
[08:24] <Burglaptop> t build on standard existing xml
[08:24] <Burglaptop> like dublin core metadata
[08:26] <netdur> I wouldn't trust ms for that, they are known to keep changing mind... how I can be sure that my finnance documents that I saved now will be fully readable after five years (word 97 to word xp)?
[08:26] <Amaranth> netdur: If it's an open standard _something_ will read it.
[08:27] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: as long as we don't have submarine patents
[08:27] <Amaranth> Burglaptop: If you're worrying about patents turn off your computer.
[08:27] <Amaranth> Burglaptop: So many things you're using right now are violating someone's patent.
[08:27] <Burglaptop> I recognize that
[08:28] <sivang> morning all
[08:28] <netdur> I think evince should view opendocument the same way firefox view html
[08:29] <Burglaptop> netdur: it already can view ppt
[08:29] <sivang> happy holidays alls
[08:29] <sivang> Burglaptop: Corey, 'sup? thanks for your wiki emails :)
[08:29] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: ms is more likely to use their patents than Sun or IBM
[08:29] <Burglaptop> against "us"
[08:29] <Burglaptop> sivang: I moved that spec
[08:30] <sivang> Burglaptop: cool, thanks
[08:30] <sivang> Burglaptop: how's your spot of Canada today?
[08:30] <Burglaptop> not bad, little rainy but no snow
[08:30] <netdur> have ever ms used patent thing against anyone?
[08:31] <Burglaptop> netdur: not yet
[08:31] <Burglaptop> mostly ms has been on the receiving end of patent lawsuits
[08:31] <sivang> heh
[08:31] <netdur> did ms "steal" stuff from open source?
[08:32] <Burglaptop> they have "borrowed" a few BSD-licensed things
[08:32] <Burglaptop> Amaranth: I like OpenDoc because it has big friends behind it, friends who like us
[08:32] <netdur> can mozilla.org sue ms over xaml?
[08:32] <Burglaptop> netdur: moz would need patents, which they don
[08:32] <Burglaptop> t have
[08:39] <netdur> so what hold them back?
[08:39] <Burglaptop> netdur: who MS?
[08:39] <netdur> ah
[08:39] <Burglaptop> the patent war is a cold war. Everybody has patents and nobody wants to fire the first shot
[08:39] <Burglaptop> most of the big companies have cross licensed with each other
[08:41] <Burglaptop> ironically, MS could be a good friend in the coming years on patent reform in the US because it has been hit with so many lawsuits
[08:41] <womble> And there's enough skeletons in MS' closet that shooting at free software is likely to bring some FOSS-friendly big guns down on them
[08:41] <womble> Burglaptop: MS losing lawsuits doesn't worry them -- they're used to it.
[08:41] <Burglaptop> womble: no company likes to lose lawsuits
[08:42] <Burglaptop> and they have stated publically that they are getting annoyed about it
[08:43] <womble> But their answer will be to buy litigants out, not give away one of their biggest potential cash cows
[08:44] <Burglaptop> think of a bear of being stung by bees, it is going to get annoyed eventually
[08:44] <Mez> still up Corey ?
[08:44] <Burglaptop> Mez: it is only midnight here
[08:44] <Mez> Mon Dec 26 07:44:33 UTC 2005
[08:44] <Mez> lol :D
[08:44] <womble> I can't see them throwing away their only stranglehold over "Open"XML (once it gets ECMA "standardised") by castrating patent reform.  Their office business couldn't stand a war against a completely compatible Free office suite for very long
[08:46] <netdur> think... they could gave up on "open xml" and make ms office use another doc formate!
[08:47] <Burglaptop> womble: once the door opens for patent reform, I think we can have a say. Observe Europe (a battle which is not won yet, merely postponed)
[08:47] <womble> netdur: Not unless they want to lose business from places like .ma.us
[08:49] <Burglaptop> I don't much are why they want to support patent refrom and more open standards. I just care that they arrive at that place
[08:49] <netdur> I think about ms as marketing company that happen to work on software domain... nowadayw whatever prefix "open" is selling point... we don't what future have... but the history says "don't trust them"
[08:51] <Burglaptop> netdur: precisely why I think OpenDoc is the way forward
[08:52] <Burglaptop> any Japanese speakers here?
[08:53] <Mez> Burglaptop, a little- why
[08:54] <Burglaptop> Mez: can I forward you an email that I have no idea what it says. It is likely spam
[08:54] <Mez> lol
[08:54] <Mez> hmm
[08:54] <Mez> probably wont be able to read it
[08:54] <Mez> lol
[08:54] <Mez> I speak a little
[08:54] <Mez> not read :D
[08:55] <robitaille> 90% of my emails are in russian for some unknown reason...
[08:55] <robitaille> s/emails/spam
[08:55] <Burglaptop> this one is well enough formatted that I think it might not be spam
[08:56] <desrt> mezmezmez
[08:56] <Mez> desrtdesrtdesrtdesrt
[08:56] <Mez> hows things ?
[08:56] <desrt> reasonably good
[08:56] <desrt> did you have a mezzy chzistmas?
[08:56] <Mez> good good
[08:56] <Mez> desrt - it was ok :D involved lots of vodka :D
[08:56] <desrt> hah
[08:57] <Mez> desrt - /query
[08:57] <desrt> good for some, i suppose
[08:58] <Mez> so hows life going - how was your Xmas
[08:58] <desrt> channel or /query? :p
[08:59] <Mez> I /query'd you :d
[08:59] <desrt> yes.  and i've been talking to you there
[08:59] <Mez> no
[08:59] <Mez> you've been talking to me here
[08:59] <Mez> lol
[08:59] <desrt> oh fucking christ
[08:59] <desrt> freenode is being assy
[08:59] <Mez> I havent had a reply via /query
[08:59] <desrt> and blocking my messages
[08:59] <desrt> this irc network is bloody useless
[08:59] <Mez> ah lol :d you need to ID to nickserv
[08:59] <desrt> can't be assed
[09:00] <desrt> i said to you the following:
[09:00] <desrt> "no.  been on vacation from open source"
[09:00] <desrt> and "how did things shake down with the lady?"
[09:00] <Mez> lol
[09:00] <desrt> no.  i cannot.
[09:00] <Mez> the lady - meh - things went weird lol
[09:01] <desrt> ya.  they were pretty weird already
[09:01] <desrt> she cried wolf?
[09:01] <Mez> no ... just things... messed up... lol
[09:01] <Mez> long story
[09:02] <desrt> well... i'd say "either she was telling the truth or she was not"
[09:02] <desrt> but i have a feeling that the grey area between those two points is what makes up the long story
[09:02] <desrt> my christmas was fine :)
[09:03] <Mez> no actually
[09:03] <Mez> it was just awkwardness
[09:03] <desrt> i'm definitely getting more confused
[09:03] <desrt> crikey.  wait
[09:03] <desrt> are you up late or early?
[09:03] <Mez> late :D
[09:03] <desrt> hahahah
[09:03] <desrt> ok
[09:03] <desrt> *i* am about to go to sleep
[09:04] <desrt> s/about to go/going/
[09:04] <desrt> cheers :D
[09:06] <sivang> Hey Mez ! You were gone for sometime after UBZ , where were you? :)
[09:06] <Mez> sivang - long story - had no net access - was homeless for a while
[09:06] <Mez> have a place sorted now :D so I can finally get back to doing things 
[09:08] <Mez> It's nice to be back
[09:08] <Mez> lets hope people welcome me back
[09:08] <Mez> hows things been sivang ?
[09:09] <Burglaptop> hmm http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KDE
[09:10] <Mez> why hmm ?
[09:10] <Burglaptop> interested proposal to deal with KDE in Fedora core
[09:14] <Mez> sounds like interfering
[09:35] <sivang> Mez: fine for me, busy over head at work, stressing myself to be able to do some Ubuntu work ...
[09:35] <sivang> Mez: homeless? wow , why were you homeless?
[09:38] <sivang> Mez: so now you're back to backporting? :)
[11:04] <Mez> sivang - homeless was a long story :D
[11:10] <sivang> Mez: I see :) nevermind then
[11:11] <Mez> sivan - wasnt it you I caught the plain back with ?
[11:26] <sivang> Mez: exactly! I was then worried when you didn't come back online about your whereabouts :) thought maybe you lost the train ticket, or they didn't let you in
[11:26] <Mez> lol
[11:26] <Mez> nah - was fine :D
[01:07] <Robot101> wtf, I had dvb working yesterday and now udev decides not to give me a sodding /dev/dvb directory
[01:07] <Robot101> gr8
[01:29] <jsgotangco> cheers
[01:52] <sivang> hey pitti , aren't you in vacatio today? :)
[01:53] <siretart> merry christmas!
[01:53] <siretart> does anyone know if it is possible to boot via grub with / and /boot in a lvm?
[01:53] <Mithrandir> sire	it's not
[01:54] <siretart> ok. so I definitly need /boot on a normal partition. thanks
[01:54] <jsgotangco> being online is hardly a vacation :)
[01:54] <sivang> siretart: not with /boot
[01:54] <sivang> siretart: make sure /boot is outside of the LVM
[01:55] <sivang> merry christmas siretart !
[01:55] <sivang> and jsgotangco 
[01:55] <sivang> :)
[01:55] <siretart> :)
[01:55] <jsgotangco> bah humbug :) hehehe joke
[02:00] <pitti> hi sivang
[02:00] <pitti> sivang: I am, right :)
[02:09] <slomo_> hi pitti :)
[02:09] <Yagisan> Happy Holidays pitti
[02:17] <sivang> pitti: merry chirstmas then! have fun
[02:22] <pitti> slomo_: hi
[02:22] <pitti> Yagisan: thank you, for you too!
[04:18] <mdke_> LOL
[04:18] <mdke_> Setting up xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (0.14.3+seriouslythistime-0ubuntu1
[04:22] <Lathiat> heh
[04:23] <zakame> woo
[05:59] <mjg59> Hm. Why has "Search and Indexing" ended up under Applications/Accessories?
[06:00] <SEJeff> mjg59, That should be a preference shouldn't it
[06:02] <ogra_ibook> for me its in places in a recent dapper
[06:03] <ogra_ibook> but i think it will go away completely, now that its integrated in nautilus
[06:07] <mjg59> ogra_ibook: I think the preferences are still required
[06:08] <ogra_ibook> hmm, but they should be in the filemanager preferencec instead ...
[06:10] <SEJeff> search and indexing prefs are for beagle
[06:10] <SEJeff> Proof is in /usr/share/applications/beagle-settings.desktop
[06:10] <ogra_ibook> oh, yes, indeed ... no mono on ppc in dapper currently ...
[06:11] <ogra_ibook> yes, these should be in the preferences menu#
[06:11] <SEJeff> Thats sad, beagle is the "killer app" if used with sweetness like deskbar applet
[06:11] <SEJeff> ogra_ibook, Do you use the native broadcom drivers?
[06:12] <SEJeff> I noticed they are included in the recent dapper kernels
[06:12] <ogra_ibook> oh, i'm sure it will get solved ... the mono build is just ftbfs on ppc64 currently
[06:12] <ogra_ibook> SEJeff, i use the latest trunk version of bcm43xx
[06:13] <ogra_ibook> running it with less than 54Mbit runs pretty stable ... 
[06:13] <SEJeff> And I take that to mean it is working perfectly.
[06:13] <ogra_ibook> not perfectly ...
[06:13] <mjg59> SEJeff: A-ha ha ha.
[06:13] <mjg59> No, they're some way from perfect yet
[06:13] <ogra_ibook> i have "hicups" with 54Mbit and a bad lag with other high rates ...
[06:13] <SEJeff> well I meant usably. I saw the lkml post from the bcm developer saying he was posting using them
[06:14] <SEJeff> no oops or anything scary though?
[06:14] <mjg59> They're usable, but still flaky
[06:14] <ogra_ibook> but using them at low rates is possible and runs quite stable since some days here
[06:15] <SEJeff> Good to know
[06:15] <mjg59> Biggest problem is that we have no permission to redistribute the firmware
[06:15] <ogra_ibook> the odd thing is that they dont really offer a wireless interface, so checking things with wavemon or other tools is impossible
[06:16] <mjg59> That's the devicescape stack
[06:16] <ogra_ibook> yup
[06:16] <mjg59> It's not fully hooked up with wireless extensions yet
[06:16] <ogra_ibook> i hope it gets stable enough until our final kernel build ...
[06:17] <SEJeff> But you could do like the msttcorefonts and download them, right?
[06:17] <ogra_ibook> i'm fine with using the apple firmware for now ... at least its better than carrying a usbstick around ...
[06:19] <mjg59> SEJeff: Not if your only internet connection is wireless :)
[06:19] <SEJeff> true, but that would be the best bet
[06:19] <mjg59> We can't distribute it a tall
[06:19] <mjg59> But there are probably ways of hacking around that, yes
[06:21] <SEJeff> And I'm going to guess that monitor mode won't work anytime soon
[06:21] <mjg59> Monitor mode works, I think
[06:21] <mjg59> Since it's significantly easier to get going than anything that lets you actually move packets
[06:22] <SEJeff> So kismet and aircrack allow you to crack wireless networks, but the driver won't let you access them for very long
[06:22] <mjg59> Pretty much
[06:22] <SEJeff> nice
[06:29] <ogra_ibook> network-manager didnt work here for me ...
[06:43] <siretart> does the new dbus really require new udev?
[06:44] <siretart> I'm still having trouble with 2.6.15, and I'm still debugging that
[06:44] <mjg59> Network-manager works really nicely here now
[06:45] <mjg59> We should sort out what it does in the absence of policy and then stick it in main
[06:49] <siretart> no, it doesn't. but it requires newer lsb* packages
[06:58] <pvanhoof> Removing cupsys-driver-gimpprint ...
[06:58] <pvanhoof>  * Restarting Common Unix Printing System: cupsd invoke-rc.d: initscript cupsys, action "force-reload" failed.
[06:58] <pvanhoof> same when installing it
[07:24] <robertj> anyone know what causes an empty Applications menu in dapper?
[07:26] <robertj> it pops up the menu and then all the entries go poof
[07:26] <jordi> robertj: pkill gam_server
[07:26] <ogra_ibook> but be careful on amd64 with this ;) 
[07:27] <ogra_ibook> it makes my system jump to 100% cpu usage which i can only fix by killing the panel ... which in turn starts gam_server on restart :)
[07:28] <ogra_ibook> works fine on x86 and ppc though
[07:31] <robertj> jordi:  thanks
[07:31] <jordi> ogra_ibook: fun :)
[07:31] <robertj> bug already filed?
[07:31] <ogra_ibook> yup
[07:32] <robertj> cool
[07:32] <ogra_ibook> its a old one 
[07:35] <robertj> brb hopefully
[08:43] <nasdaq7> i was wondering: if it says open source, does it mean free and open source or can it be shareware and open source / commercial and open source?
[08:45] <mhz> the latter
[08:46] <tseng> "free" is alot more specific than "open"
[08:46] <tseng> in context
[08:47] <desrt> and ironically, "open" is a lot more specific than "free" in other contexts
[08:47] <tseng> yes :)
[08:47] <nasdaq7> so if you'd like to charge something for your program, you can release it as open source
[08:48] <nasdaq7> but charge still
[08:48] <tseng> you can charge for free software as well
[08:48] <desrt> you can charge for Free software, even
[08:48] <nasdaq7> now i am a .net developer
[08:48] <nasdaq7> is developing in ubuntu easier than .net?
[08:49] <desrt> ubuntu, like windows, has a lot of different programming environments
[08:49] <tseng> including .Net
[08:49] <desrt> (.net is one of them)
[08:49] <tseng> i said it first!
[08:49] <tseng> according to my client
[08:49] <desrt> according to mine too
[08:49] <nasdaq7> there are so many things that microsoft hides in it's documentation - i was wondering if ubuntu / linux hides as much code?
[08:50] <desrt> *its, and no.
[08:50] <tseng> some things may be poorly documented
[08:50] <desrt> gtk, for example has good documentation
[08:50] <tseng> but nothing is "hidden"
[08:50] <tseng> intentionally
[08:50] <desrt> but even when the documentation is lacking you always have the possibility of looking at the source to find out exactly how something works
[08:51] <nasdaq7> what seems interesting is the step on intellectual property debate
[08:51] <desrt> it's not possible to keep secrets
[08:51] <nasdaq7> i read somewhere
[08:51] <desrt> please don't use the phrase "intellectual property"
[08:51] <desrt> it's misleading and inaccurate
[08:51] <tseng> "software patents" might be what you are after
[08:51] <nasdaq7> you can't write 30 lines without infringing on someone's patent
[08:52] <tseng> is there a question here?
[08:52] <desrt> fortunately only a small minority of countries have software patents
[08:52] <nasdaq7> with ubuntu that is not that a big a problem?
[08:52] <desrt> nasdaq7; i don't think anybody honestly beleves in using software patents
[08:53] <desrt> nasdaq7; except those who have nothing to lose
[08:53] <desrt> nasdaq7; it's like nuclear weapons
[08:53] <nasdaq7> :)
[08:53] <nasdaq7> isn't there a source archive for ubuntu code?
[08:53] <tseng> of course
[08:53] <desrt> nasdaq7; if microsoft tried to press their patents against us, 10 other companies would press their patents against microsoft
[08:53] <desrt> nasdaq7; with software patents nobody wins
[08:53] <desrt> nasdaq7; so just like nuclear weapons, the only winning choice is to not use them
[08:54] <nasdaq7> yes
[08:54] <nasdaq7> isn't there a source archive for ubuntu code?
[08:54] <desrt> ya
[08:54] <desrt> it's wide open for everyone to see and modify their own copies of
[08:54] <desrt> and distribute their changes on their own if they want
[08:54] <nasdaq7> is it part of the distribution?
[08:54] <desrt> (of course, random people can't make changes to the official ubuntu version)
[08:54] <nasdaq7> or a web site?
[08:55] <tseng> either
[08:55] <desrt> for any package that you can install (apt-get install packagename) you can also type 'apt-get source packagename'
[08:55] <nasdaq7> liek sourceforge.net?
[08:55] <desrt> and that will download and unpack the sourcecode
[08:55] <desrt> which you can then modify if you wish and then build your own version of the package from
[08:55] <tseng> packages.ubuntu.com has sources
[08:55] <nasdaq7> ok
[08:55] <nasdaq7> thanx
[08:56] <nasdaq7> well thanx guys
[08:56] <desrt> np.
[08:56] <nasdaq7> enjoy your coding :)
[08:56] <desrt> cheers
[08:57] <nasdaq7> ok
[08:57] <desrt> "intellectual property" really annoys me
[08:58] <desrt> particularly when it is used by the innocent
[08:58] <tseng> unclued people writing about it on websites so random people pick up on it is worse
[08:58] <tseng> yes.. "the innocent" as it were
[08:58] <desrt> well
[08:58] <desrt> it's clued evil people who continue using it and embedding it in everyone's minds.... 
[08:59] <desrt> it's definitely intentional :/
[08:59] <desrt> total newspeak
[08:59] <tseng> minpat
[08:59] <desrt> ?
[08:59] <tseng> ministry of patents
[08:59] <desrt> ah :)
[09:00] <desrt> minipat wouldn't it be?
[09:00] <tseng> i thought it was mintru, etc
[09:00] <desrt> hmm
[09:00] <Treenaks> facecrime.net?
[09:00] <desrt> google has 20600 hits for mintruth and 37700 fir mintruth
[09:00] <desrt> *mini/min
[09:01] <desrt> so mintruth has it by a factor of almost 2.... but for google that's pretty close
[09:01] <desrt> i wonder if there was a printing of it with it written a different way
[09:02] <tseng> newspeak dictionary, 12th edition?
[09:02] <desrt> was such a book published?
[09:02] <desrt> (in the real world)
[09:02] <tseng> no, it was being written during the course of the plot
[09:02] <desrt> well, yes
[09:02] <tseng> http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/
[09:03] <tseng> but thanks to freaks and the internet
[09:03] <desrt> but i thought you meant that someone released it in the realworld :p
[09:03] <desrt> i'm already at this site :)
[09:03] <desrt> it has neither
[09:08] <desrt> http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-mis.html
[09:08] <desrt> this is nice :p
[09:10] <desrt> either this site was written by a bunch of people who manage to get along with each other or written by one person with very interesting political views :)
[09:11] <tseng> i read that 10 minutes ago
[09:12] <tseng> i thought it was tounge-in-cheek
[09:12] <desrt> it's extremely accurate though
[09:12] <desrt> even the ones that i don't totally agree with i know to be real beliefs held by non-insane people :)
[09:13] <desrt> the only odd thing is that i can't think of a single person who holds the combination of all the beliefs expressed on that page :)
[09:15] <tseng> feminist is my favorite
[09:16] <tseng> that or progressive
[09:16] <desrt> 'intellectual property' is conspicuously missing
[09:16] <desrt> the doublespeak page is interesting too
[09:17] <desrt> Bust / Massive arrest by the state - When US police go on rampage and incarcerate large numbers of people during the "War on Drugs" it is considered a great victory ... When China arrest large numbers of people for trying to bring down the government, it is considered to be a barbaric act against basic human rights.
[09:18] <desrt> Affirmative Action / Racial Discrimination.... Campaign contribution / bribe.... Educated / Brainwashed.... etc
[10:07] <psusi> pitti, are you around?  I was told you are the man to talk to about the internals of pmount and gnome-volume-manager
[10:07] <tseng> psusi: he is on vacation
[10:07] <Amaranth> wanna see something weird?
[10:07] <Amaranth> sudo whoami
[10:08] <Amaranth> then sudo echo `whoami`
[10:08] <tseng> im not sure thats weird at all
[10:08] <tseng> `` is a shell function
[10:08] <tseng> echo is a program
[10:08] <tseng> this is the same reason you cant do sudo echo "blah" > file where you normally cant write to file
[10:09] <Amaranth> tseng: you can do that with sh -c though
[10:09] <tseng> sure, but the command line you give sudo isnt interpreted as a shell command
[10:09] <psusi> tseng, if you escape the > with a \ you can ;)
[10:10] <tseng> psusi: good one
[10:10] <tseng> psusi: ... no
[10:10] <psusi> it is interpreted as a shell command, but if you don't escape the >, then the shell interptets it first before running sudo with the rest of the command
[10:11] <tseng> escaping the > doesnt do anything useful in the case i described
[10:11] <tseng> unless you really wanted to echo a >
[10:11] <psusi> how so?  it prevents the redirection from happening until sudo changes to root
[10:11] <tseng> it doesnt redirect at all
[10:12] <tseng> it literally echos >
[10:12] <psusi> hrm... I managed to do that once somehow... let me see if I can remember the right way to escape it
[10:12] <tseng> bringing you back to sh -c ""
[10:12] <psusi> or quote it... maybe it was with quotes
[10:12] <tseng> sudo sh -c "whatever the hell you want"
[10:12] <psusi> that works too... 
[10:12] <tseng> Amaranth already mentioned this :)
[10:13] <psusi> by gosh... now it comes back to me... yea... sudo invokes the command with the rest of the arguments, so you have to use sh -c ;)
[10:14] <psusi> anyone else familliar with the internals of gnome-volume-manager and pmount by chance? ;)
[10:14] <tseng> desrt is a pretty elite hacker in that area
[10:14] <tseng> not specifically pmount
[10:15] <tseng> but hal goodness
[10:15] <psusi> I think it falls more in with hal... I'm trying to modify the hal and gnome-volume-manager to pmount a packet write mode udf cdrw in rw mode using the pktcdvd device instead of the real underlying device
[10:16] <psusi> is he around?
[10:17] <Amaranth> whoa, i have no idea what you just said
[10:17] <psusi> hehe.... I've been fooling wrond with the udftools package... there is a kernel module that allows you to create a new device that allows full read/write access to a cdrw using packet writing, so you can put a full read/write filesystem on the disc and use it like a big floppy
[10:18] <psusi> but gnome-volume-manager wants to mount it with the real device in read only mode when you insert the disk
[10:18] <psusi> so I'm trying to figure out how to fix that to behave properly and maybe get that fix into dapper
[10:19] <tseng> pitti wrote some code to mount devices specially via a dm-crypt device
[10:19] <tseng> it might be a start
[10:19] <psusi> I found an article on the web about that I've been reading... very interesting
[11:09] <hub> any plan to put a more recent ath_hal ?