[12:06] <mdke> Moeen_, an administrator probably can, but I can't see a reason to!
[12:07] <Moeen_> mdke, I made 2 ID because of some problems, now want to delete one of them
[12:07] <Moeen_> mdke, how can I find one administrator ? :P I couldn't find any email address for support or something like this.
[12:08] <mdke> Moeen_, you can merge the accounts, again you need an administrator for that. As for contacting them, I think the best idea is to ask in here after the holidays are over
[12:09] <Moeen_> mdke, when the holydays will over ? :P (I'm in a Arabic country and have different holydays)
[12:10] <mdke> Moeen_, a week or so
[12:10] <mdke> let me see if I can find a contact email address
[12:10] <Moeen_> mdke, ok, thanks
[12:11] <mdke> Moeen_, enter the duplicate account here: https://launchpad.net/people/+requestmerge
[12:12] <mdke> you will need to be logged in with your good account
[12:56] <Moeen_> mdke, can I pm ?
[12:58] <jamesh> Moeen_: log in as the user ID you want to keep, and go to https://launchpad.net/people/+requestmerge
[12:59] <jamesh> enter the name of the other user ID you created, and you'll receive a few emails with instructions on completing the merge
[01:00] <Moeen> jamesh, thanks friend. I did when "mdke" told me ;)
[01:00] <daf> perhaps the web UI doesn't explain this very well
[01:00] <jamesh> morning daf
[01:01] <daf> hi James
[01:01] <daf> how goes it?
[01:02] <Moeen> the Translates for Gnome in Launchpad is just for Ubuntu, or will go to Main Gnome Repository ?
[01:02] <daf> that depends on individual translation teams
[01:02] <daf> some GNOME Translation Project teams coordinate with Rosetta, some don't
[09:48] <sivang> morning daf , jamesh , others
[09:48] <sivang> merry chirstmas
[09:48] <sivang> or, post m x :)
[01:02] <mhz> hi all
[01:03] <mhz> I honestly dont want to be a pain in the neck bu I need to state my feelings regarding a very important issue to me:
[01:04] <mhz> I think LaunchPad is a great tool, indeed, with lots of potential and wisely being designed.
[01:05] <mhz> However, since I knew it was non-free-as-in-freedom platform, I have been getting these annoying thoughts 
[01:08] <mhz> I don't understand why, if I want to contribute to a project like Ubuntu, very committed to generate and promote freedom of access to both IT and knowledge, and even supporting a great project like Edubuntu -which I have been a very happy member for loooon time-
[01:09] <mhz> I am forced to have a LP account before I can share free content with others in a wiki platform
[01:11] <mhz> Edubuntu is aimed to help educational and learning processes, those processes are, by nature, based on freedom of access, and yet LP remains a propietary software.
[01:13] <mdke> re: restricted access, LP accounts are free, not restricted
[01:13] <mhz> I am aware Mark has been investing lots of time and money on LP and will release it GPL or something one of these days, but in the meantime, LP remains non-free for people committed to help absolutely free of asking for any compensation
[01:13] <mdke> re: source code, there are some good reasons not to release it
[01:13] <mhz> mdke: I know, but if I dont want to have a LP account I cant wiki contents
[01:14] <mdke> mhz, the decision to restrict the wiki to registered users has nothing to do with launchpad
[01:14] <mhz> mdke: ACL's work perfectly in any Moin wiki site
[01:15] <mdke> mhz, as I say, that has nothing to do with launchpad
[01:15] <mhz> we can use ACL's (moin feature, 100% free) to have users log in before editing
[01:15] <mhz> that instead LP
[01:15] <mhz> AFAIK, LP does not give 'karma' points for wiking stuff
[01:15] <mdke> no, that stage of integration has not yet been reached
[01:16] <mhz> mdke: my point is we use non-free to generate free
[01:16] <mhz> but not as an 'option'
[01:16] <mdke> the accounts are free
[01:16] <mhz> yes
[01:16] <mdke> just like registering for any wiki account
[01:16] <mhz> yes
[01:17] <mhz> but accounts on a non-free software
[01:17] <mdke> that's a different question
[01:17] <mhz> ?
[01:17] <mdke> you were complaining about the wiki requiring registration, AND the lack of freedom of the LP source code
[01:17] <mdke> so we've disposed of the first, on the second: there are good reasons
[01:18] <mdke> (IMO) the beauty of LP is that it can be used as a centralised system to organise many upstream products and distributions
[01:18] <mhz> mdke: I am not complaining about wiki requieirng resgistration.
[01:19] <mhz> that is a need to avoid spammers
[01:19] <mdke> if you release the source code before LP is totally mature in that respect, people will simply use many different copies, and the advantage of LP will be lose
[01:19] <mdke> (all IMO)
[01:19] <mhz> but you could still require registration using ACL's (which is free) instead of via LP (non-free). And so, the freedom of access 'chain' would be complete
[01:20] <mhz> mdke: believe me, I totally understand why LP is non-free yet
[01:20] <mhz> 100%
[01:20] <mhz> and I dont complain about it
[01:20] <mdke> what _are_ you complaining about?
[01:21] <mdke> the use of LP in ubuntu?
[01:22] <mhz> I am complaining about users like me who believe in freedom of access, who has invested great deal of time and money  in helping others to see the advantages and relevance of freedom. These users, me, are forced to use non-free software to help on some areas of Ubuntu
[01:23] <mhz> and Ubuntu is a project to generate and spread freedom
[01:23] <mhz> because, to submit a bug (when I test stuff) I have to use LP
[01:23] <mhz> to edit a page, I need a LP account
[01:23] <mdke> yes, I see your complaint now
[01:24] <mhz> to organize teams like EdubuntuChile, I can perfectly do it with no LP account
[01:24] <mhz> but
[01:24] <mhz> LP is standard, so I better do it in non-free software
[01:25] <mhz> otherwise, some people may not recognize it as 'a team of Ubuntu'
[01:25] <mhz> or even duplicate efforts
[01:26] <mhz> If LP is not free yet, why forcing users (fans and collaborators of Ubuntu not LaunchPad) to use LP, mdke ?
[01:26] <mhz> AFAIK, I am collaborating with Ubuntu because I believe in it and feel commited because of its Manifesto
[01:27] <mhz> mdke: and in that manifesto is not explicit that ubuntu is developed via non-free software
[01:27] <mhz> it says all about freedom
[01:27] <mhz> and so I 'bought it'  :D
[01:28] <mhz> mdke: and now, after manyy months of contributing, I just know its development is not coordinated via free software.
[01:28] <mhz> mdke: do you see my point?
[01:29] <mdke> i understand what you are saying
[01:29] <mdke> but I think you've gone a bit over the top about the "moral" side of Ubuntu
[01:29] <mdke> we're probably off-topic here tho
[01:29] <mdke> best to raise it with the Community Council
[01:30] <mhz> mdke: oh, ok, I thought this was for LP, sorry guys
[01:30] <mhz> i thought it was a LP team decision
[01:31] <mdke> no, it's an Ubuntu decision to use Launchpad, although obviously the two are so closely related, it doesn't make a lot of difference
[01:32] <mhz> okis, so Council will be, thanks for the mess mdke and please believe i dont want to be a pin in the neck
[01:32] <mdke> no problem
[01:52] <stub> mhz: The wiki's were integrated into Launchpad primarily because we needed central authentication for the growing number of wiki's we use and to start to tie them together. If we had left this until later (eg. until Launchpad had been opensourced), we would have been left with a bigger data migration headache to deal with.
[01:53] <mhz> stub: oh, that sounds logical
[01:54] <stub> It might have made sense to implement a central (open source) authentication system, except that we already had the database and were using it for launchpad.
[01:54] <mdke> and because it makes sense to have one authentication system for all websites
[01:55] <mhz> yup, and if it's a modular development, could that module work by itself under 'free' license?
[01:55] <stub> Eventually, Launchpad will become an Open-ID server. We havn't specced that yet. Perhaps we can use an existing implementation, or implement an Open-ID server, and back Launchpad onto that (I think we need to be looking at that around February)
[01:57] <stub> If Open-ID existed when we hacked together the wiki integration, we didn't know about it (or those who did didn't think it was ready for whatever reason) - it might have been a better option to go Open-ID from the start
[01:57] <jamesh> OpenID is a lot newer than our authserver
[01:58] <mdke> gah
[02:00] <mhz> stub: it may sound incredible stupid but I admit your points make me a little more calm and patient ;)
[02:00] <mhz> I'll see in #moin if they have been faced a similar need (bet they have)
[02:01] <stub> mhz: We could probably open source the AuthServer. Which is the XML-RPC glue between our slightly modified moin and the database. It would be pretty useless to people except as an example of a real twisted application.
[02:01] <mhz> heheh
[02:02] <mhz> stub: if you say it's a matter of time... no problem, I can be patient and tell others to be aptient as well
[02:02] <mhz> (as long as that time doesn't last for ever ;)
[02:05] <mhz> .oO(it happens I am also a memeber of the board of CDSL -Centro de Difusion del Software Libre- and I have mentioned the good idea of LP and they liked it so much they asked me how to install it. I didnt know it was not free.)
[02:07] <stub> It has always been planned that Launchpad will become Open Source, and Mark's street cred would suffer if he dragged his feet when it makes sense to do so or changes his mind. FWIW, there is commercial stuff being developed by Canonical that is explicitly not being integrated with Launchpad to enable this, even though it would be easier for us to extend what we already have.
[02:10] <stub> There should have been chunks released already, except that it all became too tightly coupled to release it without letting it all go at once.
[02:10] <mhz> yup, I see. But i think it is difficult (in terms of decision making) to mix non-free and free
[02:10] <jblack> I think there's a need for some patience.
[02:10] <stub> From our perspective, it is more embarassing.
[02:14] <mhz> jblack: sure! I'll do my best
[02:14] <mhz> stub: why?
[02:15] <stub> mhz: Because this topic keeps being brought up. It is planned to open source it, we want to open source it, but we haven't *done* it yet. Its almost like vaporware.
[02:16] <mhz> hehehehehe
[02:16] <mhz> stub: incredibley, you have re-motivated me
[02:16] <mhz> and that's difficult! :D
[02:17] <jblack> Free software is a way of life for me. I'm dedicated to it. 
[02:17] <stub> We *want* to contribute, but so far all the world has really seen are some patches and features to the various products we use and the odd real world project like bazaar 1+2
[02:17] <mhz> jblack: for me too
[02:17] <jblack> But I still don't think releasing launchpad is right today. 
[02:18] <jblack> There's a lot of parts that still need work. If we released launchpad before most of that work was done, the project would splinter.
[02:18] <mhz> jblack: I can understand developers arguments. 
[02:18] <mhz> If they say it's not ready then it's not
[02:19] <jblack> Yeah. I'm coming at it from a half developer, half community aspect.
[02:19] <mhz> but yes, it does confuse me form a 'bazaar way of developement' (bazaar as in Bazaar and Cathedral)
[02:19] <jblack> The larger a project grows, the more room there is for disagreement.
[02:20] <jblack> The more room for disagreement, the more opportunity there is for multiple competitive teams to develop.
[02:21] <mhz> or forking
[02:21] <mhz> (when not needed)
[02:21] <jblack> Yeah. Unnecessary forking is exactly my concern.
[02:21] <jblack> Get a pile of industrious people that aren't _quite_ good enough to do a good job. They try and contribute and dont' get managed well.
[02:22] <jblack> Now you've got a fork.
[02:22] <mhz> lol
[02:22] <mhz> jblack: indeed
[02:22] <jblack> Now, you have arguments on core details. 
[02:23] <jblack> But if the core stuff is done first, then things like forking are much less likely to happen, because the remaining details are too minor
[02:24] <jblack> Thats why I think the linux kernel has succeeded.
[02:24] <jblack> THe core was "done" long before there were many large groups with competiting interests.
[02:25] <mhz> hmmm, clever point
[02:26] <mhz> oh, else we would experience 'hurd' development?
[02:26] <jblack> I've never studied why hurd failed.
[02:26] <jblack> My suspicion is that it was a result of not being good listeniners and integrators. 
[02:27] <mhz> oh
[02:27] <jblack> Its one of the few things that the FSF took on that was much bigger than them, and as far as I remember, its their single largest failure.
[02:27] <mhz> indeed
[02:27] <jblack> They're known to be poor listeners.
[02:27] <mhz> they did not use bazaar way of developing
[02:28] <jblack> They didn't listen, nobody came to the party, and they got stuck trying to build on their own something bigger than them.
[02:29] <mhz> jblack: yes, well put
[02:29] <jblack> Right now, launchpad is the opposite because launchpad isn't bigger than us; we listen very, very closely to the users
[02:30] <jblack> we have a limited growth rate because we're not open... _yet_, but we're making sure that everyone is welcome to the party.
[02:31] <jblack> We'll have the foundation in place, the structural timbers, guidlines for developing further wings... and the free software world will have a mansion that will last forever.
[02:31] <mhz> wow!
[02:32] <mhz> I can be patient!
[02:32] <jblack> Yeah. Thats how I'm patient too. 
[02:33] <mhz> ;)
[02:34] <mhz> well, guys I am very glad you helped me see these points
[02:34] <mhz> I can live without feeling guilty
[02:34] <mhz> without seeing this RMS little devil on my shoulder
[02:35] <mhz> pointing me 'guilty as charged'
[02:35] <jblack> Keep him there.
[02:35] <mhz> :D
[02:35] <mhz> see ya, and thanks for listenting
[02:35] <mhz> later!
[02:35] <jblack> You're welcome buddy.