[02:06] <artnay> hello
[02:07] <artnay> how are you guys? ready to do some serious wiki work?
[02:08] <lukacu> hello artnay
[02:10] <lukacu> not really ... i must study ... :(
[02:13] <artnay> oh :(
[02:13] <artnay> mhz pinged me yesterday but I wasn't here
[02:14] <artnay> and he didn't tell what he was planning
[02:15] <lukacu> i will check later if there is anything i can do but right now i must learn some meaningless stuff ;)
[02:47] <klep[a] s> meeting on soon... :)
[03:44] <artnay> pong mhz 
[03:44] <mhz> ping artnay 
[03:44] <mhz> ?
[03:45] <artnay> mhz: yeah, you pinged me yesterday. something about wiki? :)
[03:46] <mhz> hehe, short term memory only :(
[03:46] <mhz> sorry
[03:46] <mhz> :)
[03:46] <artnay> sorry, I was kind of buzy yesterday and couldn't hang with you guys :(
[03:46] <mhz> np
[03:47] <mhz> everyone is busy 
[03:47] <artnay> although I wanted to, but my gf was like "how many hours do you spend with ubuntu every day? more than with me?" :D
[03:48] <mhz> heheheh
[03:48] <artnay> and then I was in a situation where I couldn't say anything to defend myself
[03:48] <mhz> artnay: my wife says even more terrible stuff to me :)
[03:48] <artnay> and I had to leave :)
[03:49] <artnay> I've tried to make her to use Ubuntu but no luck yet :(
[03:49] <mhz> what does she do?
[03:49] <artnay> nothing special, but she and her family still needs shockwave and some other programs that don't run in WINE
[03:50] <artnay> but at least she's using fx
[03:50] <artnay> klepas: piss off now! ;D
[03:51] <artnay> 8 weeks... I can't recall when was the last time I had that long vacation
[03:52] <artnay> no, seriously. now relax before you get into college and do some Ubuntu artwork during your holiday :)
[03:52] <klepas> normally i have 6 over the summer hols
[03:52] <klepas> but i graduated from high school, so this year only they were nice and slapped on another 2
[03:52] <klepas> ;)
[03:52] <klepas> and yep, i've been doing something productive each and every day so far
[03:53] <klepas> this is currently turning out to be the best holidays i've ever had
[03:53] <artnay> I'm doing a new background today
[03:53] <klepas> :)
[03:53] <artnay> well at least I'm supposed to do... I have a photo already, so just slam Ubuntu logo and text into it and do some colour replacing
[03:53] <artnay> shouldn't take long
[03:53] <klepas> hehe
[03:54] <klepas> give us a link of the original
[03:54] <artnay> speaking of backgrounds... what about the default background? maybe it shouldn't be a photo so that it would fit with Usplash/GDM etc.
[03:55] <artnay> I don't have it, it's on my harddisk
[03:55] <klepas> ah, that's right, using xp, huh?
[03:55] <artnay> yeah, I'm still at work
[03:55] <klepas> lol
[03:57] <mhz> hehehe
[03:57] <artnay> mhz: so, the wiki structure? you haven't commented what I proposed
[03:58] <artnay> about the last changes and the overall layout of /Artwork
[03:58] <mhz> I have only read it, true. I haven't commented it
[03:58] <mhz> My feeling is subpages are too dangerous to play with
[03:58] <mhz> unless
[03:59] <klepas> oh, by the way, i think we will have quite an attendance
[03:59] <artnay> so what would you suggest?
[03:59] <klepas> for the meeting
[03:59] <klepas> should have a fair few extra people joining us :)
[03:59] <artnay> klepas: that's good, thanks for spreading the information :)
[03:59] <mhz> we have nly one level of sbpages and they keep the CamelCase syntax
[03:59] <mhz> if no CamelCase is kept, then autolinking will brake
[04:00] <artnay> umh, I didn't quite understand. :o so we have only one subcategory on /Artwork, right?
[04:01] <klepas> artnay: i estimate... about 5-10 extra people
[04:01] <artnay> like clicking a link will bring a new page with text etc., no links at the moment
[04:01] <mhz> artnay: I'll explain
[04:02] <mhz> Wikis rely on one big power they have: Autolinking. Autolinking means that whwnerver I am writing and I place MauricioHernandez (that's camel case) when I save the page, that CamelCase will direct users to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MauricioHernandez
[04:02] <mhz> right?
[04:03] <artnay> it is
[04:04] <klepas> mhz: ohh, i saw today
[04:04] <klepas> mhz: congrats on becoming a member :)
[04:04] <mhz> s, continuing with explanation
[04:04] <mhz> klepas: ?
[04:05] <klepas> community council
[04:05] <klepas> dunno when it last held their meetings
[04:05] <klepas> but i think i remember seeing your name somewhere
[04:05] <mhz> if when writing I place MauricioHernandez/Artwork instead of MauricioHernandez/TheArtwork,
[04:05] <klepas> under "accepted new members"
[04:05] <klepas> or something
[04:06] <mhz> the first will not create any link. The second will.
[04:06] <mhz> klepas: oh, yes! I am very happy, thx
[04:06] <artnay> klepas: it was some time ago, I read a log where they welcomed mhz and discussed about automatix licensing etc.
[04:06] <klepas> nice
[04:06] <klepas> mhz: nervous during the meeting?
[04:07] <artnay> mhz: now is there a reason why only the 2nd example would creat a link?
[04:08] <mhz> klepas: yup, very much but on the other hand, after 6 months contributing... 
[04:08] <mhz> :)
[04:08] <artnay> now if there was /Artwork which would link to /*buntuArtwork and links to projects on this page, would it be too difficult?
[04:08] <mhz> artnay: yes, Wiki syntax is CamelCase to create a link
[04:08] <mhz> unless, you use [[CamelCase/Camel] ] 
[04:09] <mhz> which is longer and less probable users will remember that when editing
[04:09] <mhz> the nice feature about CamelCase is that you just write
[04:11] <artnay> but I see no other way to handle this artwork/wiki issue. all artwork projects should be accessible by using only one page (/Artwork). /Artwork should cover all neccessary information BUT it shouldn't contain anything that wouldn't be accessible from UbuntuArtwork, KubuntuArtwork etc.
[04:11] <artnay> so people could bookmark their favourite distro's artwork project and they wouldn't be forced to use /Artwork
[04:13] <mhz> artnay: to make things crystal-clear... could you make a txt doc or other format where you graphically  show what you have in mind?
[04:13] <mhz> maybe i am missing one of yur points
[04:13] <artnay> and there hasn't been any other propositions (which isn't good)
[04:14] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal should cover it
[04:14] <artnay> when I click /UbuntuArtwork link on /Artwork, it would bring me a list of all projects related to Ubuntu artwork (like /ArtworkTodoList is now)
[04:15] <artnay> but the problem is that all *buntus want to have their own style, so every /*buntuArtwork page should cover the subjects (unified structure, that's what I'm talking about)
[04:16] <mhz> ohhh
[04:16] <mhz> we can fix that 'free-creating-page-style by proposing users to use CategoryArtwork at the end of each single page
[04:17] <mhz> this way, when we visit the page CategoryArtwork, this will list automatically all pages including that link (CategoryArtwork)
[04:17] <artnay> yes, therefore we should create a working structure that would be used in all projects
[04:18] <artnay> at the moment there are lots of artwork related sites that aren't listed in proper places, don't have "Artwork" in a title etc.
[04:18] <mhz> yes, but my fear is how we 'convince' people
[04:18] <artnay> so it's quite hard to track this pages
[04:18] <mhz> indeed
[04:18] <artnay> s/this/these
[04:19] <artnay> convince people of what?
[04:19] <mhz> ok, let me get this streight
[04:19] <mhz> artnay: you propose https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeams ?
[04:20] <mhz> artnay: you propose https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkWork
[04:20] <mhz> or a different approach?
[04:20] <artnay> what's /ArtworkWork?
[04:21] <artnay> ArtworkTodoProposal is currently a temporariry page to access some artwork related pages
[04:21] <artnay> and /ArtworkTeams is for what?
[04:23] <artnay> now how should I guess that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork will cover Kubuntu's logo?
[04:23] <artnay> it should be something like /Artowork -> /KubuntuArtwork -> KubuntuArtworkResources or something similiar
[04:23] <artnay> I don't really know
[04:24] <artnay> it would be more logical at least for me
[04:24] <artnay> and /UbuntuArtwork shouldn't be about logos and palettes etc.
[04:25] <mhz> so, if we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork page how many SubPages do you consider from it?
[04:25] <artnay> it should cover links to all Ubuntu artwork related pages
[04:25] <artnay> that would be the main page
[04:25] <artnay> it would have links to other pages, TOC in the bottom of the page
[04:26] <artnay> like, umh, Projects (a similiar list to /ArtworkTodoList) and maybe something else
[04:28] <artnay> every *buntuArtwork projects covers different projects, the approach to artwork differs etc.
[04:29] <artnay> some cleanup would be needed in /Artwork and with my grammar :)
[04:29] <mhz> heheh
[04:30] <mhz> we'll need many people to understand the pros and cons of such organizing wiki pages :(
[04:30] <mhz> that is also difficult
[04:30] <artnay> it surely is. but nobody has proposed a better approach
[04:31] <mhz> artnay: i like and share your concern very much
[04:31] <artnay> wiki is our main project at the moment. we can't actually think that people will contribute if they don't have a clue what to do
[04:32] <mhz> yup
[04:35] <artnay> we could propose that every *buntu will create a /*buntuArtwork page that would contain similiar topics as mentioned in ArtworkTodoList
[04:35] <klepas> gnite
[04:35] <artnay> bye klepas 
[04:35] <klepas> :)
[04:36] <klepas> see you in 7 hours and 25 minutes
[04:36] <klepas> 24 minutes
[04:36] <klepas> :)
[04:36] <artnay> ok
[04:36] <klepas> ;)
[04:36] <artnay> I will most probably not be here then
[04:37] <artnay> but try to create something out of wiki :o
[05:19] <mhz_idle> artnay: stiil there?
[05:33] <artnay> mhz_idle: I just came home. what's up?
[05:34] <mhz_idle> I will think of a 'tree' of logic Pages for artwork related stuff and general to all atwork teams
[05:34] <mhz_idle> then will compare it to yours and we can set a proposal to use subpages in the less cases as possible
[05:34] <mhz_idle> is that right for you?
[05:35] <artnay> mhz_idle: that's what I've been asking, comments and suggestions :)
[05:35] <artnay> thanks mhz
[05:36] <artnay> maybe I should do my own
[05:36] <artnay> but guests are coming soon... so I have to do some cleaning before that
[05:37] <mhz_idle> hehehe, mee too
[05:37] <mhz_idle> I am cooking now
[07:42] <artnay> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000558.html
[07:42] <artnay> what do you think?
[07:43] <artnay> AUC would be the primary place to submit ubuntu artwork, also *projectname*DiscussionArtwork could be used as well to attach files
[07:44] <artnay> *projectname*Artwork would be sort of status page, dependencies, links to resources and guides that are related to this project etc.
[08:11] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodo
[08:11] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
[08:11] <artnay> :o
[08:15] <artnay> can we get some Artwork grepping on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges ?
[09:10] <mhz> artnay: ping
[09:10] <mhz> lukacu: ping
[09:10] <artnay> hey mhz 
[09:10] <lukacu> hello
[09:10] <artnay>  /ArtworkTodoProposal updated
[09:10] <mhz> artnay: hey, good to see ya here so late, i guess
[09:11] <mhz> artnay: please see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez
[09:11] <artnay> you too
[09:11] <mhz> at the bottom om it, 'navegation macro'
[09:11] <mhz> will help your ideas so subpages get listed 'automatically'?
[09:19] <lukacu> mhz: you can write macros in moinmoin ?
[09:20] <mhz> yup
[09:20] <mhz> Moin is 100% python
[09:20] <lukacu> nice ... now, if only i knew python ;)
[09:21] <mhz> hehehe
[09:21] <mhz> me too?
[09:22] <mhz> !
[09:23] <lukacu> well i have every intention to learn it but there is just no time
[09:23] <mhz> indeed
[09:24] <mhz> I will start reading about making themes for XFCE before python and XML
[09:25] <lukacu> yeah ... priorities. i have my queue too
[09:27] <mhz> mine is endless
[09:27] <lukacu> :)
[09:36] <artnay> hey mhz 
[09:37] <artnay> did you read this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
[09:37] <artnay> layout changed and now it sort of has a structure
[09:38] <mhz> artnay: please see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez
[09:38] <mhz> will help your ideas so subpages get listed 'automatically'?
[09:38] <artnay> mhz: so could we grep -i Artwork https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges
[09:38] <mhz> hehehehe
[09:38] <artnay> as "news" ?
[09:38] <artnay> well you get the idea :)
[09:39] <mhz> People can just subscribe to any page they like and will get mail notifications plus a nice DIFF inside the mail body
[09:39] <artnay> yeah, that's true
[09:39] <mhz> so, if people susbcribe to /Artwork
[09:39] <artnay> but there lots of people who haven't signed up
[09:39] <mhz> yup
[09:40] <mhz> could /Artwork become UbuntuArtwork instead?
[09:40] <artnay> oh noes, I've lost verbs :|
[09:40] <artnay> mhz: why?
[09:40] <artnay>  /UbuntuArtwork should cover Ubuntu-related projects
[09:40] <mhz> hmmmm
[09:41] <mhz> could we make standard ArtWork instead of plain Artwrok ?
[09:41] <mhz> and then keep CamelCase l;inking
[09:42] <artnay> what do you mean?
[09:42] <artnay> sorry, I'm not good at wikis :| *goes rtfm*
[09:43] <mhz> artnay: np
[09:43] <mhz> if we use http/Artwrok instead http/ArtWork
[09:43] <mhz> the 1st will not be considered link when you edit a page and place that word
[09:44] <mhz> the 2nd will be a link inemediately
[09:44] <artnay> so what should be done and how? how's that preventing us?
[09:47] <artnay> what would you suggest?
[09:47] <artnay> it would be great to have wiki in a better shape by tomorrow
[09:49] <artnay> name it ArtWork?
[09:49] <artnay> that's all? or do you have anything better to offer? :)
[09:51] <artnay> mhz: and can we get that "grepped" version of RecentChanges? then just add link "Recent changes in Artwork pages" below the news section
[09:51] <mhz> nope
[09:51] <artnay> that would help people who haven't signed and just want to see what's happening
[09:51] <artnay> it would be very useful
[09:52] <mhz> artnay: i'll ask my friends in #moin
[09:52] <mhz> but I dont think so
[09:52] <artnay> well that's strange
[09:52] <artnay> it's kind of basic operation, don't you think? :o
[09:52] <mhz> artnay: by standard, I mean, that ArtWork should then be used everywhere in wiki instead of Artwork
[09:52] <mhz> or viceversa
[09:52] <mhz> but if we do the latter
[09:53] <mhz> to make it a link we'll have to write [/Artwork]  everytiem
[09:53] <artnay> understood
[09:53] <artnay> it's all the same to me, what matters is usability
[09:54] <mhz> IMHO, usability is ArtWork
[09:54] <artnay> but we really could have some use for the list of recent changes in *ArtWork* pages
[09:54] <mhz> unless in english, artwork is just one word
[09:55] <mhz> In spanish, it is 2 word
[09:55] <artnay> well Artwork would be used only on one page
[09:55] <artnay> no... ArtWork :)
[09:55] <mhz> artnay: it's possible only if we touch Moin code (python)
[09:55] <mhz> hmm
[09:56] <mhz> yes,  but everytime we edit pages on any content, we'll refer to Artwork or ArtWork... then it'll matter
[09:56] <artnay> but that's just a minor issue now, I think
[09:56] <artnay> we need the structure first
[09:56] <artnay> then build it, at this point we need a decision on that
[09:57] <artnay> (wheter we use Artwork or ArtWork)
[09:57] <artnay> how many people will attend tomorrow? do you guys have any idea?
[09:58] <lukacu> nope ...it will be a complete surprise for me
[09:59] <artnay> mhz: I didn't know CamelCase is case-sensitive although that's quite obvius */me goes hit his head into a wall :|*
[10:00] <mhz> artnay: hehehehehe
[10:00] <mhz> dont be hard on yourself
[10:00] <mhz> at least, wait until AFTER the meeting
[10:00] <mhz> we need you there
[10:00] <mhz> :D
[10:00] <lukacu> lol
[10:01] <artnay> I just stared at what you wrote and was like "umh"
[10:01] <artnay> this is one of those situations when you feel yourself dummy
[10:01] <artnay> ;)
[10:01] <artnay> anyways, it wouldn't matter if we think about it
[10:01] <artnay> umh
[10:01] <artnay> now what was that... nevermind
[10:03] <artnay> "as a dummy" and the 2nd one would be... just renew the wiki! :D
[10:08] <artnay> should we post an announcement to ubuntuforums?
[10:24] <mhz> artnay: a post to announce the meeting?
[10:24] <mhz> sure
[11:46] <klepas> moin moin
[11:46] <lukacu> moin klepas
[11:50] <klepas> meeting soon :)
[11:53] <lukacu> yeah ... a bit more than a day to go :)
[11:55] <mhz> moin klepas 
[11:55] <mhz> :D
[11:56] <klepas> well there might even be more people that a not in the art team showing