[12:03] <lukacu> yeah ... hope somebody will assemble meeting minutes too
[12:03] <mhz> lukacu: my only 2 cents would be we base a structure similar to artnay's regarding wiki
[12:04] <mhz> but
[12:04] <mhz> you all could agree on the 'areas' wiki needs to be structured
[12:04] <mhz> I already know we want every flavour artwork to be easily indentified
[12:05] <lukacu> ok
[12:05] <mhz> but the main need in order to work on a wiki structure is to know exactly how many areas we need to cover (example: every flavour artwork will have: *Logo, *Documentation *Wallpapers *Themes *Backgrounds, etc)
[12:06] <mhz> AT this very moment, we can't do what artnay wants (it's a very ggod idea but not possible yet) to have the 'grep -i' thing
[12:07] <mhz> so, unfortunately, RecentChanges will list each change made to ANY page or team page
[12:07] <mhz> However, we can encourqage people who are interested on getting news fro art or contributing to it, to subscribe to pages
[12:08] <mhz> and they 'll get email notification per change
[12:08] <mhz> including a nice text diff and the user who did such change
[12:09] <mhz> lukacu: again, sorry, I have to leave. I'll keep this box open though in case I come to a solution in this family thing
[12:09] <lukacu> ok ... no problem mhz
[12:09] <lukacu> i hope you will solve the problems
[12:09] <mhz_idle> mee too
[12:12] <libervisco> hm.. we're 10 minutes in
[12:13] <Yetzero> So which issues will we discuss in this meeting?
[12:13] <Yetzero> which points
[12:14] <trevorv> i think this is supposed to be in #ubuntu-meeting, no?
[12:14] <lukacu> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000543.html
[12:14] <lukacu> agenda
[12:14] <Yetzero> thanks
[12:14] <lukacu> and go to the #ubuntu-meeting
[12:15] <ptomes> thank you
[12:51] <Burgwork> who is viper500 on the wiki?
[12:54] <lukacu> Viper550 ?
[12:55] <Burgwork> yep
[12:55] <Burgwork> oops
[12:55] <klepas> he's not listed on the /ArtworkTeam page
[01:22] <Viper550> Welcome people from the meeting, which just ended
[01:22] <libervisco> or not
[01:23] <libervisco> they just raised an universe artwork package idea
[01:29] <Viper550> Bachler, PM's are blocked for me, I'm not registered, but I'll find it@
[01:30] <bachler> oh..
[01:30] <bachler> k
[01:31] <Viper550> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/attachments/20051226/f7c89d99/ubuntuglow-0001.jpg
[01:31] <Viper550> Here is the infamous wallpaper
[01:32] <Burgwork> Viper550, too red at the bottom, but looks good
[01:32] <Viper550> It's brown silly!
[01:33] <Burgwork> the bottom is quite red
[01:33] <bachler> Viper550: i think that (if the default brown is changed) you wally needs to be adjusted to fit it
[01:33] <Viper550> Don't forget, the top matches up with our new Metacity theme (ClearLooks 2)
[01:34] <Viper550> Also, I've got an idea for a new default font!
[02:31] <mhz_away> RE
[02:31] <mhz_away> re
[02:49] <mhz> klep[a] s: ping
[02:49] <mhz> oh, sorry
[02:50] <mhz> well, I'd like to add that we will have Edubuntu ArtWork as well
[02:50] <mhz> :)
[09:40] <artnay> g morning. guess who overslept? :)
[11:06] <artnay> klep[a] s: will you discuss about the communication issue with canonical?
[11:06] <artnay> we didn't make much decisions yesterday (wait, it was today), it was quite a mess :o
[11:08] <artnay> but at least we agreed to have that unified wiki structure. although nobody promised to take care of Kub... and Xub...
[11:09] <artnay> if we get /UbuntuArtwork right, I guess people might be interested to have similiar page for their favourite *buntu. so, did we promise to have /UbuntuArtwork done within five days? :)
[11:11] <artnay> I'm quite disappointed that there wasn't much Artwork Team members online
[11:14] <manicka> hmmm, as someone new to the team, I found the meeting quite hard to follow
[11:14] <manicka> to many individual agendas
[11:15] <artnay> manicka: it was, some people didn't follow the agenda
[11:15] <manicka> agreed
[11:15] <manicka> you did your best though
[11:15] <manicka> :)
[11:15] <artnay> well I can't say so... I was on the verge of being late...
[11:15] <artnay> so I wasn't properly prepared
[11:16] <artnay> sorry for that
[11:16] <manicka> maybe some stricter meeting guidelines would help
[11:17] <manicka> one person directing the meeting and sticking to the agenda religously
[11:17] <manicka> just a thought
[11:17] <artnay> I was surprised to see which topics people discussed
[11:18] <artnay> I mean, it's ok to raise some issues above others. still /Artwork and the context behind that is the 1st priority
[11:18] <artnay> it's something we depend on
[11:18] <artnay> organized place for information
[11:20] <artnay> there are lots of artists around the ubuntu community, we'd need them to use wiki
[11:21] <artnay> I think that's the only reasonable way to co-operate on artwork
[11:27] <manicka> sorry, I was daydreaming
[11:28] <artnay> that's quite common
[11:28] <manicka> I agree, the wiki needs to be the focus for organisation
[11:28] <manicka> but in such a format 
[11:28] <manicka> that is useable by the team
[11:29] <manicka> moin moin can be difficult for some to get the hang of
[11:29] <artnay> not just the artwork team, anyone who visits /Artwork should get a clear picture what's happening, how can one contribute and visitors have to find necessary guides to do things
[11:29] <manicka> yes, agreed
[11:30] <manicka> if we get the ubuntu part right and functioning effectively, the others (kubuntu etc) should follow suit
[11:31] <manicka> hehe, I'll be in fiji for that one
[11:31] <artnay> manicka: I think that will get done quite automatically if just get the Ubuntu part done right
[11:31] <manicka> yes
[11:31] <artnay> as you said :)
[11:32] <artnay> anyways, have you identified to NickServ? freenode almost requires that
[11:32] <manicka> yes
[11:33] <artnay> I hope we're able to raise the communication issue in the next CC
[11:33] <manicka> I'm a regular on lots of other channels
[11:33] <klep[a] s> hi you two :)
[11:33] <manicka> not sure when the next cc will be
[11:34] <artnay> hey klepas 
[11:34] <manicka> wiki says sometime in January
[11:34] <manicka> hi klepas
[11:34] <artnay> manicka: that's quite late, don't you think?
[11:34] <klepas> i've just gone through what the two of you talked about before i joined
[11:35] <artnay> klepas: don't forget to read the meeting log, too
[11:35] <klepas> i'm sorry that the meeting was so disorganised
[11:35] <klepas> artnay: i know, i'm writing the minutes
[11:35] <artnay> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
[11:35] <artnay> That collaboration depends on good relationships between developers.
[11:36] <manicka> the next cc meeting was due for next week but it doesn't look like that will happen
[11:36] <artnay> and currently we don't have much relations to canonical...
[11:36] <klepas> that is something i am going to clean up
[11:36] <manicka> have many in the artwork team signed the CoC?
[11:37] <klepas> no point putting a lot of effort into something that won't be used
[11:37] <artnay> manicka: only a few AFAIK
[11:37] <klepas> manicka: i have not as of yet :)
[11:37] <klepas> i will when i apply for membership
[11:37] <manicka> it's a fairly painless process
[11:37] <klepas> yea
[11:38] <manicka> and shows the cc/developers etc that you are on board... so to speak
[11:38] <klepas> i will be sharing my public keys at keysigning at LCA [http://lca2006.linux.org.au/] 
[11:38] <klepas> yep
[11:38] <klepas> manicka: i want to sign it along with my membership
[11:39] <manicka> hmm, fair enough
[11:39] <klepas> but i am afraid i have not been been around long enough.
[11:39] <klepas> so it might take a little longer
[11:39] <artnay> Members of the Ubuntu community need to work together effectively, and this code of conduct lays down the "ground rules" for our cooperation.
[11:40] <klepas> but in the meantime, signed or unsigned i'm following the CoC. :)
[11:40] <manicka> I often wonder what the definition of 'long enough' is to the cc
[11:40] <klepas> artnay: once the meeting minutes are finished, where ought I stick them on the wiki?
[11:40] <klepas> somewhere under /Artwork/Meetings
[11:41] <artnay> klepas: yeah, and a link to that at News section of /Artwork
[11:41] <klepas> yep
[11:41] <artnay> but we should write a list what we agreed on yesterday
[11:41] <klepas> i'm going to spend my late evening and morning on that
[11:41] <klepas> yep
[11:42] <artnay> can you do that as well?
[11:42] <artnay> I'm supposed to do some other work meanwhile :p
[11:42] <klepas> cooperatively
[11:42] <klepas> yea
[11:42] <klepas> which list in particular?
[11:43] <artnay> list of things that were discussed and what we decided
[11:43] <klepas> oh
[11:43] <klepas> so essentially minutes?
[11:43] <artnay> sort of
[11:44] <artnay> we should also publicize a log of that meeting
[11:44] <klepas> yep
[11:44] <klepas> i can do that too
[11:44] <klepas> i'll start working on the wiki tomorrow
[11:44] <artnay> you know where to find them?
[11:44] <klepas> yep
[11:44] <klepas> sure do
[11:44] <artnay> I thought so
[11:44] <klepas> ~fabbione/logs
[11:45] <artnay> we witnesses yesterday that people haven't read /Artwork
[11:45] <artnay> -s+d
[11:45] <artnay> so that would be a requirement before attending the next meeting
[11:46] <klepas> yep
[11:46] <manicka> good idea
[11:46] <artnay> only that way we can keep the discussion more organized
[11:47] <manicka> agreed
[11:47] <klepas> i think before the next meeting we need to select someone amongst ourselves (think maurico, lukacu, yourselves and maybe even i) to steer the meeting along the agenda
[11:47] <klepas> which i will write up separately
[11:47] <klepas> based upon /Artwork
[11:48] <klepas> also, i'd really appreciate maurico's moin wiki tutorial right now
[11:48] <klepas> because i'm going to have to stick to the simple stuff otherwise =\
[11:48] <artnay> I tried to create some discussion yesterday but I wasn't pleased about the results
[11:48] <artnay> at first I thought you and mhz couldn't attend for some reason
[11:48] <klepas> sorry, mum woke me up
[11:48] <artnay> so I was like "whaaaaat is this" :)
[11:49] <klepas> i set my alarm clock to 9:30
[11:49] <klepas> and i turned it off, and dozed again ;)
[11:49] <klepas> mum came in and told me i am missing my meeting
[11:49] <artnay> duh!
[11:49] <artnay> I did the same to my both alarm clocks this morning
[11:49] <klepas> mums are great
[11:52] <artnay> ok, so "stfu and keep on agenda" in the next meeting
[11:52] <artnay> what's not marked into agenda can be discussed on this channel
[11:53] <klepas> yes
[11:53] <klepas> or proposed in the end if we have time
[11:53] <klepas> frankly at this point we are so poorly disorganised that discussing individual artwork is not and cannot be on the agenda
[11:53] <klepas> we need to fix the way the art team works first
[11:53] <artnay> I thought that was quite clear
[11:54] <klepas> obviously not
[11:54] <manicka> to some
[11:54] <klepas> like you mentioned earlier, some people did not even glance at /Artwork
[11:54] <artnay> yeah, never under- or overestimate people
[11:54] <klepas> expect the unexpected?
[11:54] <klepas> :)
[11:54] <klepas> anyhow
[11:54] <klepas> i could do with some help
[11:54] <klepas> to start this artwork thing
[11:54] <klepas> could you make /Artwork not point to the proposal
[11:55] <klepas> but to an empty page
[11:55] <artnay> klepas: ask mhz to do that
[11:55] <klepas> which I would be happy to start upon in a few hours time
[11:55] <artnay> I actually placed it as /Artwork a long time ago
[11:55] <klepas> reason i ask is because i wouldn't know how ;)
[11:55] <klepas> Alrighty, i'll give Maurico a buzz
[11:55] <artnay> but it was so disorganized then so mhz had to redirect it
[11:55] <artnay> hey lllmanulll 
[11:56] <klepas> i'll be back in a few minutes
[11:58] <artnay> and one thing we have to make clear is the co-operation with desktop team
[11:58] <artnay> I know we're doing duplicate work
[11:58] <artnay> and with current resources, that shouldn't happen
[11:59] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam - take a look at their purpose & vision
[12:00] <artnay> Artwork Team was the first one to do some of those tasks, but as it failed before breezy, Desktop Team was formed
[12:03] <artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=107022
[12:03] <artnay> we should try to answer some basic questions
[12:16] <klepas> i'm going to have to come back later
[12:16] <klepas> needed offline
[12:16] <klepas> be back in about an hour-ish :)
[12:22] <artnay> I'm reading this DE war at OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=13118&offset=0&rows=15&threshold=-1
[12:41] <klepas> artnay: interesting
[12:41] <klepas> a lot of the points he mentions are quite correct
[12:42] <klepas> however i think the aggressive stance it takes is wrong
[12:55] <artnay> it's inevitable when it comes to F/OSS DEs :)
[01:08] <lllmanulll> hey artnay :)
[01:12] <artnay> hi
[01:12] <artnay> so what are your thoughts on the meeting?
[01:13] <artnay> lllmanulll: aren't you involved in desktop team as well? do you have any idea what the DT purpose & vision means?
[01:13] <manicka> my thoughts?
[01:14] <artnay> manicka: yours too :)
[01:16] <manicka> my thoughts, well I've already mentioned that many didn't seem to be aware of the agenda and this resulted in general mayhem
[01:16] <manicka> but generally
[01:16] <manicka> the things I was looking for didn't come out in the meeting that I could see
[01:17] <manicka> what is the groups purpose
[01:17] <artnay> manicka: what are you looking for?
[01:17] <manicka> how does it function
[01:17] <manicka> how can people contribute effectively
[01:17] <manicka> are the groups efforts effective in the grand scheme of things
[01:17] <manicka> ???
[01:19] <manicka> the wiki discussion was a good start
[01:19] <manicka> but needs more work
[01:20] <manicka> something to present at the mext meeting should clarify the wiki discussion better
[01:20] <klepas> manicka: that is the idea
[01:20] <klepas> artnay, mhz and i will work on the wiki
[01:21] <klepas> Andy Fitzsimon, lukacu and I will report on AUC
[01:21] <klepas> i might even set up a CMS on my local server and then open some ports for you lot to take a look at a proposed CMS for AUC
[01:21] <klepas> and generally get the organisation and facilities to produce art back up
[01:22] <klepas> and then we're going to pull out the gimp and inkscape :)
[01:22] <manicka> sounds good..... like a purpose is developing
[01:22] <lllmanulll> artnay : yep, i'm part of the desktop team
[01:22] <manicka> a better organised and tighter run meeting should make all this clearer
[01:23] <lllmanulll> artnay I believe its goal is to give the best polish for our distribution
[01:23] <manicka> anyway guys, I'm stuffed .... late night here, I'm turning in
[01:23] <klepas> manicka: i think you can rest assured that at least those here now as well as mhz and lukacu will make sure of a smoother meeting
[01:23] <klepas> manicka: farewell
[01:24] <lllmanulll> artnay Such as usability...
[01:24] <manicka> ciao all
[01:24] <artnay> lllmanulll: isn't there a11y for that? :)
[01:24] <artnay> if desktop team wants their part of this, they have to tell what they want to do
[01:24] <artnay> otherwise they have to redirect people to get involved in artwork team
[01:25] <artnay> dupe work is out of question now, we have so many things to do even without duplicate projects
[01:32] <lllmanulll> artnay Desktop team takes care of code, not artwork
[01:34] <lllmanulll> artnay : accessibility and usability are two very different problems :)
[01:41] <artnay> oh, I misread... anyways, Desktop Team wants some flash factor
[01:41] <artnay> "We, the DesktopTeam will be the guys that are the first contact for new users, we will create, beautify and organise the most-visible parts of Ubuntu."
[01:41] <artnay> now what are the most-visible parts of Ubuntu?
[01:45] <lllmanulll> Well, but at least the artwork team doesn't take care of code, so I don't think there will be any duplicate work :)
[01:51] <artnay> http://sven.gimp.org/gimp-2.2.10-splash-contest+ixyx_v0.2b.png
[01:51] <artnay> new splash
[01:51] <lllmanulll> Looks nice :
[01:51] <lllmanulll> !
[01:51] <lllmanulll> Is it the winner ?
[01:52] <lllmanulll> Why does it stop at 30 years ? :-p
[01:52] <artnay> that's a good question
[01:52] <artnay> maybe they will change the name then? :o
[01:52] <artnay> I don't like that font, it's too big and rusty
[01:53] <artnay> it just doesn't fit there
[02:20] <artnay> hey, any deviants here?
[02:31] <klepas> sort of
[02:31] <klepas> i signed up
[02:31] <klepas> and then looked at their upload policy
[02:31] <klepas> and disagreed with it 
[02:34] <artnay> hhehhe
[02:35] <klepas> i don't like it that they can just use my image for anything on deviantart
[02:42] <artnay> http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Ubuntu-Carribean_Medicine_Mask_1280x960.jpg - I don't think that photo is GPL'd
[02:44] <klepas> the end of "linux" is difficult to make out anyway
[02:57] <klepas> hey
[02:57] <klepas> artnay: i'm going to send you what i've got soon
[03:04] <Tm_T> hullo
[03:05] <klepas> hey Tm_T :)
[03:18] <Tm_T> I bet I spend next day upgrading and fixing my system *=)
[04:19] <mhz> artnay: i have a raw propsal for wiki structure
[04:33] <artnay> mhz: and I have nothing new
[04:33] <artnay> mhz: shall we make a proposal page? :)
[04:37] <artnay> I've been thinking those artwork .debs
[04:37] <artnay> if they are metapackages, it's rather hard to remove (purging) them
[04:38] <artnay> aptitude would check the dependencies but majority of people use plain apt-get
[04:38] <artnay> apt -D might do something
[04:38] <artnay> I'm no expert, therefore we should ask packagers opinion
[04:40] <artnay> would there be only one big pack available?
[04:40] <artnay> apt is ok but far from perfect
[04:41] <mhz> artnay: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
[04:42] <artnay> I think we don't need separate our proposals
[04:43] <artnay> as we three all use IRC, it's pretty easy to discuss here
[04:43] <artnay> so let's have one common proposal, let's discuss about it in here and then edit it
[04:43] <artnay> does that sound better to you?
[04:44] <mhz> yup
[04:44] <artnay> do we have to separate people between the projects?
[04:44] <artnay> can't we have one common contact page and interests listed after name?
[04:44] <mhz> but as w hadnt agreed on that, and in case we cant discuss soem stuff (IRC timings)... I am not sure if remving it is god idea
[04:45] <artnay> we can even split the names between the projects on one page
[04:45] <artnay> I know that's against "let's split subjects based on *buntu flavour", but some things should be kept simple
[04:46] <mhz> artnay: I feel that having a 'heading' for each project/pet project is more efficient so visitors can exactly know who t contact
[04:47] <artnay> mhz: that's true, it should be clear to others. but we can link to only one contact page under every /*buntuArtwork
[04:47] <mhz> and having (parenthesis + interests)  forces people t read each line
[04:47] <mhz> artnay: 'contact' sure!
[04:47] <artnay> but the status page for project could include members involved
[04:48] <artnay> so it would separate more efficiently
[04:48] <artnay> and then we would have this one common contact page
[04:48] <mhz> artnay: and how do you imagine the 'status page' to look and make it look like it?
[04:50] <artnay> well it should list the current status, current default artwork related to that project, members who involved in it, dependencies to other projects, deadline, current issues, links to other related sites (inside ubuntu wiki) and on the bottom of all, links to external sites (guides etc.)
[04:50] <artnay> I think that should cover pretty much the needed information
[04:51] <artnay> and *buntuProjectArtworkDiscussion for free discussion/WIP artwork
[04:51] <mhz> artnay: yes, but how do you imagine it 'making it look like that', from a wiki perspective? How are you planning to optimize editing to it?
[04:52] <artnay> it should be based on clear subtopics and TOC
[04:52] <artnay> optimize? what do you mean?
[04:54] <mhz> optimize = who will keep record/log of the status in order to edit, how will the status look? (table?, lists?)
[04:55] <artnay> that would require people who are involved in that project to keep it up-to-date
[04:55] <artnay> I'm not sure how the layout should be done, but I'm pretty sure we can come up with something
[04:56] <artnay> I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry now
[04:56] <artnay> I'll be back in 30 minutes
[04:56] <artnay> bye mhz and thanks for helping us :)
[04:57] <mhz> bye artnay in case i dont see you b4..
[04:57] <mhz> artnay: have a nice holyday
[04:57] <mhz> artnay: have a nice holiday
[05:38] <artnay> :i
[05:38] <artnay> took a bit longer than I thought
[05:43] <artnay> mhz: is that proposal navigatable at /Artwork?
[05:43] <artnay> and really, do we need separate parts?
[05:43] <artnay> it's not like a job for three people only
[05:44] <artnay> everyone should be able to edit so we don't get blamed for bad structure that has been developed as a closed project :P
[05:46] <artnay> and I guess you're the one of us who has the needed wiki information
[05:47] <artnay> what do you think, mhz?
[05:48] <artnay> damn NYE tomorrow... five days isn't much
[05:49] <artnay> well maybe we need to relax and party when the NYE hits your time zone. hard work good but first take care of head ;)
[05:51] <artnay> ping, anyone alive?
[05:52] <artnay> Tm_T: hey, can I have kapsi account? I lost my I line! :(
[05:52] <artnay> ;P
[06:25] <mhz> artnay: re
[06:25] <mhz> artnay: i'm at lucnh nw
[06:25] <mhz> be back after it
[06:38] <Tm_T> artnay: =)
[06:38] <Tm_T> artnay: www.kapsi.fi ;)
[08:32] <mhz> re
[08:45] <mhz> off topic: Anyone has swedish, finnish, etc. cooking recipes I can download (hopefully with pictures on it)?
[08:48] <bachler> mhz: http://hem.passagen.se/stektsill/recept.htm
[08:49] <mhz> bachler: thx, /me tabbing
[08:49] <bachler> np
[08:49] <bachler> good luck btw :-)
[08:49] <mhz> bachler: ooops
[08:50] <mhz> detail: I've no idea of finnish nor swedish :)
[08:50] <mhz> heheh