| Burgwork | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasyWaysToHelpUbuntu | 12:28 |
|---|---|---|
| Burgwork | looking for good things to add to this page | 12:28 |
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| theCore | i think we should change the Python tutorial bundled with ubuntu | 02:13 |
| theCore | imho, Dive into Python isn't a good book for python starters | 02:14 |
| theCore | "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python" would be more apropriate | 02:18 |
| Mez | I like Dive Into Python | 02:24 |
| Mez | It's a good book | 02:25 |
| theCore | this book scared me from Python | 02:29 |
| theCore | i felt that C was easier than python, with this book | 02:30 |
| theCore | until I found thinkCSpy | 02:31 |
| theCore | this book really explain all the general concepts of programming | 02:32 |
| theCore | dive into python is more for python programmers that have some basic knowledge with Python | 02:33 |
| theCore | def buildConnectionString(params): | 02:34 |
| theCore | """Build a connection string from a dictionary of parameters. | 02:34 |
| theCore | Returns string.""" | 02:34 |
| theCore | return ";".join(["%s=%s" % (k, v) for k, v in params.items()] ) | 02:34 |
| theCore | if __name__ == "__main__": | 02:34 |
| theCore | myParams = {"server":"mpilgrim", \ | 02:34 |
| theCore | "database":"master", \ | 02:34 |
| theCore | "uid":"sa", \ | 02:34 |
| theCore | "pwd":"secret" \ | 02:34 |
| theCore | } | 02:34 |
| theCore | print buildConnectionString(myParams) | 02:35 |
| theCore | ^^^ first example of dive into python | 02:35 |
| theCore | as a first example, it is quite overwhelming | 02:35 |
| mhz | Burgwork: good ideas on wiki stuff, thx | 02:37 |
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| theCore | you start right away with a dictionary, a method, a list comprehention, and a format operator | 02:39 |
| theCore | it seem to me a little bit to much for a beginner | 02:40 |
| theCore | s/to/too/ | 02:40 |
| theCore | just this example was too much for me, and I had a quite good C understanding. Imagine someone that has never programmed ... this example is probably a nightmare | 02:44 |
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| theCore | however, i admit that Dive into Python is a good book for peoples who learned the basic of Python | 02:47 |
| theCore | it teach good programming habit | 02:47 |
| theCore | i think it would be a good idea to make our own Python tutorial to be included in Ubuntu | 02:52 |
| === Madpilot wonders who theCore is talking too... :P | ||
| === theCore wonder too | ||
| Madpilot | to, even... bleh | 02:54 |
| theCore | Madpilot, to the #ubuntu-doc ghosts that will probably read what I written when they will wake up | 02:54 |
| Madpilot | :D | 02:55 |
| theCore | any comments? | 02:55 |
| Madpilot | the 24 people lurking right now? | 02:55 |
| theCore | yeak | 02:55 |
| theCore | yeah* | 02:55 |
| Madpilot | I'll make a note of "Dive into Python", I've been messing with PHP and want to learn a bit more programming | 02:56 |
| theCore | my first programming experiences was with PHP | 02:57 |
| theCore | but as I learn Python, I feel that PHP is useless | 02:57 |
| theCore | almost everythings that PHP can do, Python can do it better | 02:58 |
| Madpilot | is it Python that uses whitespace as part of the actual markup? | 02:58 |
| theCore | yeah | 02:59 |
| theCore | it make the code more readable | 02:59 |
| Madpilot | interesting - so how you indent things actually matters to how the code work? | 02:59 |
| theCore | it's a block delimiter | 03:00 |
| theCore | for example if I want to make a if statement | 03:00 |
| theCore | I start with | 03:00 |
| theCore | if var < 0: | 03:01 |
| theCore | print var | 03:01 |
| theCore | else: | 03:01 |
| theCore | print "var is negative" | 03:02 |
| theCore | print var | 03:03 |
| theCore | the last statement of the else block wouldn't work | 03:03 |
| theCore | because the code isn't indented correctly | 03:04 |
| Madpilot | which line? the "print var" one? | 03:07 |
| theCore | in C, you could write if(var < 0) printf("%d", var); else { printf("var is negative"); printf("%d", var); } and the code would work perfectly | 03:08 |
| theCore | yes | 03:09 |
| Madpilot | I was playing with if/else/elseif stuff in PHP last night, actually. Created a little browser-detecting script that told you off if it smelt IE :P | 03:10 |
| theCore | try it | 03:10 |
| theCore | that easy enough | 03:10 |
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| theCore | i think it's the first script after the hello world one, in PHP tutorial | 03:11 |
| theCore | <?php | 03:11 |
| theCore | if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'] , 'MSIE') !== FALSE) { | 03:11 |
| theCore | echo 'You are using Internet Explorer.<br />'; | 03:11 |
| theCore | } | 03:11 |
| theCore | ?> | 03:11 |
| Madpilot | yeah, it is, I was just playing with it and expanding it | 03:11 |
| Madpilot | that's the one - I just threw in some elseif loops for other browsers, and a final else to print "I don't know what browser you're using!" | 03:12 |
| theCore | lol | 03:12 |
| Madpilot | what's the command to run a python script? | 03:13 |
| theCore | I would use this script to a "Get Firefox" icon to bother IE users, but to hide it from mozilla users | 03:13 |
| theCore | from command line ? | 03:14 |
| Madpilot | yeah, from terminal | 03:14 |
| theCore | python | 03:14 |
| Madpilot | "python test.py"? | 03:14 |
| theCore | it depend of your program | 03:15 |
| theCore | but it would probably work | 03:15 |
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| Madpilot | good to know - I'll have to keep playing with that | 03:16 |
| theCore | but normaly you feed the interpeter by hand | 03:17 |
| theCore | then when you have a working program, you put it in a script | 03:18 |
| theCore | you can do the script executable too | 03:18 |
| Madpilot | got an online Python tutorial you can recommend? | 03:18 |
| theCore | by putting #!/usr/bin/env python | 03:18 |
| theCore | yes | 03:19 |
| theCore | http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/index.htm | 03:19 |
| theCore | my personal favourite | 03:20 |
| Madpilot | thanks - bookmarked for later | 03:20 |
| theCore | http://docs.python.org/tut/ is cool too | 03:21 |
| theCore | then i would go for http://diveintopython.org/ | 03:21 |
| theCore | btw, if you want an demonstration of the python web capatibilities, check the ubuntu website and its wiki, both are written in Python | 03:26 |
| Madpilot | Dive into Python is actually in the Ubuntu repos as well | 03:28 |
| theCore | yea, it's bundled in the default installation in Yelp > Application > Programming | 03:30 |
| theCore | but, keep this for the end | 03:30 |
| theCore | this book* | 03:30 |
| Madpilot | I saw the "advanced programming" part of the intro blurb, don't worry :P | 03:31 |
| theCore | "Dive Into Python is a free Python book for experienced programmers." <--- directly extracted from Dive into Python | 03:33 |
| theCore | so, that why we should change the tutorial to an easier one | 03:36 |
| Madpilot | the bundled tut in Ubuntu, you mean? | 03:36 |
| theCore | yes | 03:36 |
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| === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by Burgundavia at Tue Nov 8 03:34:59 2005 | ||
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| Burgwork | mhz, np | 07:07 |
| Burgwork | mdke, ping | 07:07 |
| mhz | Burgwork: ? | 07:07 |
| Burgwork | mhz, making the wiki page | 07:08 |
| mhz | Burgwork: oooh! | 07:08 |
| Burgwork | mhz, got another one on my laptop here to put up. a more indepth helpingubuntu page | 07:08 |
| === mhz is willing to read it | ||
| Burgwork | going to post it soon | 07:11 |
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| mdke | Burgwork, pong | 08:11 |
| Burgwork | mdke, I am not certain about your merge of the two sections of wiki pages on the news article | 08:12 |
| Burgwork | to me one is a "here look at our great work" and the other is "these are new things that might need somework" | 08:12 |
| mdke | Burgwork, ah, that wasn't clear | 08:12 |
| Burgwork | shall I revert the change then? | 08:13 |
| mdke | ok... | 08:13 |
| Burgwork | and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu | 08:13 |
| mdke | do we really need to put stuff that needs work in the news item? | 08:13 |
| Burgwork | yes, because the newsletter has many audiences | 08:13 |
| Burgwork | any pages I list are NeedsExpansion, not Cleanup | 08:14 |
| mdke | hmm | 08:14 |
| mdke | i had thought of the newsletter as showcasing the new hotness | 08:14 |
| mdke | the ToDo page is linked there | 08:14 |
| mdke | so people can see what needs work | 08:14 |
| Burgwork | I don't want to mention any crappy pages there, but I think we can safely mention those pages which look good but are not complete | 08:16 |
| mdke | alright | 08:16 |
| Burgwork | thus I will not mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation/LVMOnRaid | 08:17 |
| mdke | lol | 08:18 |
| Burgwork | do we have a WikiStyleGuide ? | 08:18 |
| mdke | WikiGuide | 08:18 |
| Burgwork | ah | 08:19 |
| Burgwork | any thoughts on HelpingUbuntu ? | 08:19 |
| mdke | looks good | 08:20 |
| mdke | some dud links | 08:20 |
| Burgwork | yes, I wrote it last night when I was offline | 08:20 |
| mdke | perhaps link to ubuntu.com/community/participate | 08:21 |
| Burgwork | I would rather participate links to the wiki page, actually | 08:22 |
| Burgwork | as that participate page doesn't tell you who to contact | 08:22 |
| mdke | eventually the two pages should become one | 08:25 |
| Burgwork | yes | 08:25 |
| mdke | for now, all we can do is to make sure users see both | 08:25 |
| Burgwork | the idea behind helping Ubuntu is not to tell what what specifically can be done but to tell people where they can help | 08:25 |
| Burgwork | do you understand what I mean as the difference? | 08:26 |
| mdke | no | 08:26 |
| Burgwork | participate tells people "you can help with X subproject" | 08:26 |
| Burgwork | I think that is too much detail | 08:26 |
| Burgwork | HelpingUbuntu tells people "X project does X and here is where to find out what to do with them" | 08:27 |
| mdke | i suppose there is a small increase in detail on the participate page, yeah | 08:27 |
| Burgwork | that doesn't really scale | 08:28 |
| mdke | but in this case, I don't see why detail should be bad | 08:28 |
| Burgwork | I mention large subprojects, such as the wiki vs docs | 08:28 |
| Burgwork | but specific subprojects are bad | 08:28 |
| Burgwork | ie, which specific wiki pages you can edit | 08:28 |
| Burgwork | plus it doesn't have one link per section | 08:28 |
| Burgwork | I have two links: How to contact and What to do | 08:29 |
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| mdke | i think that one page with a fair level of detail and clear links is better than two pages with varying levels of detail | 08:30 |
| Burgwork | participate has a bunch of really useless links that send people to non-Ubuntu pages | 08:31 |
| mdke | the fact that the page might be bad doesn't mean it has the wrong approach | 08:32 |
| mdke | anyway, i disagree, i think the links are useful | 08:33 |
| LaserJock | which pages? | 08:33 |
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| mdke | LaserJock, ubuntu.com/community/participate | 08:34 |
| Burgwork | any links that send the person outside the ubuntu sphere is bad thing, if you are trying to get them to help Ubuntu | 08:34 |
| Burgwork | becuase those external pages have no links back to Ubuntu | 08:34 |
| mdke | Burgwork, i don't understand that | 08:34 |
| mdke | there are some links to gnome related topics, and lugs, that is about it | 08:35 |
| Burgwork | mdke, but those are bad. They are ok on project pages, once the person is hooked, but not on the main "here is how to help Ubuntu page" | 08:35 |
| mdke | if a person is minded to help Ubuntu, that is what they do | 08:35 |
| Burgwork | yes, but it is basically playing bait and switch | 08:36 |
| Burgwork | Here is how to help Ubuntu. click on this link. Oh wait, that goes to a non-ubuntu site? WTF. Ok I give up | 08:36 |
| mdke | i still don't understand that | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | instead of "here is how to help ubuntu. Hmm, I like artwork. Hmm, I contact the artwork team. Click on artwork team link. Hmm, here are some projects I can do" | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | then the artwork team page says "Art.gnome.org has some ideas/stuff | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | "' | 08:37 |
| mdke | then the person cries and gives up? | 08:37 |
| mdke | i don't think so | 08:37 |
| Burgwork | yes, they do. We have no way of finding out how many people are crying and giving up | 08:38 |
| Burgwork | plus the text size on the Ubuntu website makes my eyes hurt and is hard to read | 08:38 |
| mdke | so the person cries and gives up both ways? | 08:38 |
| mdke | this person of your sucks | 08:39 |
| mdke | yours* | 08:39 |
| Burgwork | so, with HelpingUbuntu they now know two things: Who to contact and what they are working on | 08:39 |
| Burgwork | participate doesn | 08:39 |
| Burgwork | t have any of that | 08:39 |
| mdke | i thought you said there is a link on HelpingUbuntu to the artworkteam page, which links to gnome? | 08:39 |
| Burgwork | *in a clear format, I might add | 08:39 |
| Burgwork | mdke, I said that the artwork team page can list art.gnome.org as an external resource, if you need help | 08:39 |
| Burgwork | like we can list the gnome-doc team as an external resource | 08:40 |
| mdke | that makes people cry tho | 08:40 |
| Burgwork | why? | 08:40 |
| mdke | < Burgwork> then the artwork team page says "Art.gnome.org has some ideas/stuff | 08:41 |
| mdke | < mdke> then the person cries and gives up? [19:37:58] < mdke> i don't think so [19:38:31] < Burgwork> yes, they do. | 08:41 |
| Burgwork | what I am saying is that if they come to a page on how to help Ubuntu, they don't expect external links that having nothing to do with Ubuntu on them | 08:41 |
| === mdke shrugs and gives up | ||
| jjesse | Burgwork: i guess i would disagree, if helping (k)ubuntu requires me to go outside sites, like kde or gnome then i will poke around at those sites | 08:46 |
| jjesse | Burgwork: as long as we aren't recomemnding them to go to sites outside of official sties | 08:46 |
| Burgwork | jjesse, but how does going to external sites *first* help people help Ubuntu? | 08:47 |
| mdke | because those sites help Ubuntu | 08:47 |
| Burgwork | I have no objections to linking to them on team sites | 08:47 |
| Burgwork | just not on the first level "Help Ubuntu" page | 08:47 |
| jjesse | sorry for dropping link all the time, trying to get networking for qemu working :( | 08:49 |
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| jjesse | sorry that i keep dropping link, trying to figure out networking for qemu | 08:57 |
| Burgwork | huh? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstituteTheDraftProposal | 09:20 |
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| jjesse | whats that? | 09:27 |
| Burgwork | no idea, a random wiki page | 09:28 |
| Burgwork | the guy is posting the -doc list about his ideas | 09:29 |
| theCore | his system wouldn't be a bad idea ... | 09:49 |
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| Burgwork | theCore, he needs to remove about half the words from hsi proposal | 10:06 |
| theCore | half the words .... ?? | 10:08 |
| Burgwork | theCore, yes, at random, every third word | 10:11 |
| Burgwork | no better yet, every third letter | 10:11 |
| Burgwork | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstituteTheDraftProposal <-- this is the too wordy proposal I am referring to | 10:12 |
| Burgwork | it also needs structure | 10:12 |
| mdke | and a new name | 10:12 |
| Burgwork | there might be good ideas in there but I cannot bring myself to read it | 10:13 |
| theCore | ah okay, i'm just saying that the idea of making a Ubuntu registry would be good, i don't really care about his syntax | 10:14 |
| Burgwork | theCore, if you word your ideas badly, no matter how good they are, nobody will accept them because nobody will read them | 10:14 |
| theCore | Burgwork, i know, that why I force myself to improve my english | 10:15 |
| Burgwork | theCore, my engrish is real good now, after only spaking it fur 18 yers | 10:16 |
| Burgwork | ;) | 10:17 |
| theCore | :) | 10:18 |
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