[12:28] <Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasyWaysToHelpUbuntu
[12:28] <Burgwork> looking for good things to add to this page
[02:13] <theCore> i think we should change the Python tutorial bundled with ubuntu
[02:14] <theCore> imho, Dive into Python isn't a good book for python starters
[02:18] <theCore> "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python" would be more apropriate
[02:24] <Mez> I like Dive Into Python
[02:25] <Mez> It's a good book
[02:29] <theCore> this book scared me from Python
[02:30] <theCore> i felt that C was easier than python, with this book
[02:31] <theCore> until I found thinkCSpy
[02:32] <theCore> this book really explain all the general concepts of programming
[02:33] <theCore> dive into python is more for python programmers that have some basic knowledge with Python
[02:34] <theCore> def buildConnectionString(params):
[02:34] <theCore>     """Build a connection string from a dictionary of parameters.
[02:34] <theCore>     Returns string."""
[02:34] <theCore>     return ";".join(["%s=%s" % (k, v) for k, v in params.items()] )
[02:34] <theCore> if __name__ == "__main__":
[02:34] <theCore>     myParams = {"server":"mpilgrim", \
[02:34] <theCore>                 "database":"master", \
[02:34] <theCore>                 "uid":"sa", \
[02:34] <theCore>                 "pwd":"secret" \
[02:34] <theCore>                 }
[02:35] <theCore>     print buildConnectionString(myParams)
[02:35] <theCore> ^^^ first example of dive into python
[02:35] <theCore> as a first example, it is quite overwhelming
[02:37] <mhz> Burgwork: good ideas on wiki stuff, thx
[02:39] <theCore> you start right away with a dictionary, a method, a list comprehention, and a format operator
[02:40] <theCore> it seem to me a little bit to much for a beginner
[02:40] <theCore> s/to/too/
[02:44] <theCore> just this example was too much for me, and I had a quite good C understanding. Imagine someone that has never programmed ... this example is probably a nightmare
[02:47] <theCore> however, i admit that Dive into Python is a good book for peoples who learned the basic of Python
[02:47] <theCore> it teach good programming habit
[02:52] <theCore> i think it would be a good idea to make our own Python tutorial to be included in Ubuntu
[02:54] <Madpilot> to, even... bleh
[02:54] <theCore> Madpilot, to the #ubuntu-doc ghosts that will probably read what I written when they will wake up
[02:55] <Madpilot> :D
[02:55] <theCore> any comments?
[02:55] <Madpilot> the 24 people lurking right now?
[02:55] <theCore> yeak
[02:55] <theCore> yeah*
[02:56] <Madpilot> I'll make a note of "Dive into Python", I've been messing with PHP and want to learn a bit more programming
[02:57] <theCore> my first programming experiences was with PHP 
[02:57] <theCore> but as I learn Python, I feel that PHP is useless 
[02:58] <theCore> almost everythings that PHP can do, Python can do it better
[02:58] <Madpilot> is it Python that uses whitespace as part of the actual markup?
[02:59] <theCore> yeah
[02:59] <theCore> it make the code more readable
[02:59] <Madpilot> interesting - so how you indent things actually matters to how the code work?
[03:00] <theCore> it's a block delimiter
[03:00] <theCore> for example if I want to make a if statement
[03:00] <theCore> I start with
[03:01] <theCore> if var < 0:
[03:01] <theCore>     print var
[03:01] <theCore> else:
[03:02] <theCore>     print "var is negative"
[03:03] <theCore>      print var
[03:03] <theCore> the last statement of the else block wouldn't work
[03:04] <theCore> because the code isn't indented correctly
[03:07] <Madpilot> which line? the "print var" one?
[03:08] <theCore> in C, you could write if(var < 0) printf("%d", var);  else { printf("var is negative"); printf("%d", var); } and the code would work perfectly
[03:09] <theCore> yes
[03:10] <Madpilot> I was playing with if/else/elseif stuff in PHP last night, actually. Created a little browser-detecting script that told you off if it smelt IE :P
[03:10] <theCore> try it
[03:10] <theCore> that easy enough
[03:11] <theCore> i think it's the first script after the hello world one,  in PHP tutorial
[03:11] <theCore> <?php
[03:11] <theCore> if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'] , 'MSIE') !== FALSE) {
[03:11] <theCore>    echo 'You are using Internet Explorer.<br />';
[03:11] <theCore> }
[03:11] <theCore> ?> 
[03:11] <Madpilot> yeah, it is, I was just playing with it and expanding it
[03:12] <Madpilot> that's the one - I just threw in some elseif loops for other browsers, and a final else to print "I don't know what browser you're using!"
[03:12] <theCore> lol
[03:13] <Madpilot> what's the command to run a python script?
[03:13] <theCore> I would use this script to a  "Get Firefox" icon to bother IE users, but to hide it from mozilla users
[03:14] <theCore> from command line ?
[03:14] <Madpilot> yeah, from terminal
[03:14] <theCore> python
[03:14] <Madpilot> "python test.py"?
[03:15] <theCore> it depend of your program
[03:15] <theCore> but it would probably work
[03:16] <Madpilot> good to know - I'll have to keep playing with that
[03:17] <theCore> but normaly you feed the interpeter by hand
[03:18] <theCore> then when you have a working program, you put it in a script
[03:18] <theCore> you can do the script executable too
[03:18] <Madpilot> got an online Python tutorial you can recommend?
[03:18] <theCore> by putting #!/usr/bin/env python
[03:19] <theCore> yes
[03:19] <theCore> http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/index.htm
[03:20] <theCore> my personal favourite
[03:20] <Madpilot> thanks - bookmarked for later
[03:21] <theCore> http://docs.python.org/tut/ is cool too
[03:21] <theCore> then i would go for http://diveintopython.org/ 
[03:26] <theCore> btw, if you want an demonstration of the python web capatibilities, check the ubuntu website and its wiki, both are written in Python
[03:28] <Madpilot> Dive into Python is actually in the Ubuntu repos as well
[03:30] <theCore> yea, it's bundled in the default installation in Yelp > Application > Programming
[03:30] <theCore> but, keep this for the end
[03:30] <theCore> this book*
[03:31] <Madpilot> I saw the "advanced programming" part of the intro blurb, don't worry :P
[03:33] <theCore> "Dive Into Python is a free Python book for experienced programmers."   <--- directly extracted from Dive into Python
[03:36] <theCore> so, that why we should change the tutorial to an easier one
[03:36] <Madpilot> the bundled tut in Ubuntu, you mean?
[03:36] <theCore> yes
[07:07] <Burgwork> mhz, np
[07:07] <Burgwork> mdke, ping
[07:07] <mhz> Burgwork: ?
[07:08] <Burgwork> mhz, making the wiki page
[07:08] <mhz> Burgwork: oooh!
[07:08] <Burgwork> mhz, got another one on my laptop here to put up. a more indepth helpingubuntu page
[07:11] <Burgwork> going to post it soon
[08:11] <mdke> Burgwork, pong
[08:12] <Burgwork> mdke, I am not certain about your merge of the two sections of wiki pages on the news article
[08:12] <Burgwork> to me one is a "here look at our great work" and the other is "these are new things that might need somework"
[08:12] <mdke> Burgwork, ah, that wasn't clear
[08:13] <Burgwork> shall I revert the change then?
[08:13] <mdke> ok...
[08:13] <Burgwork> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu
[08:13] <mdke> do we really need to put stuff that needs work in the news item?
[08:13] <Burgwork> yes, because the newsletter has many audiences
[08:14] <Burgwork> any pages I list are NeedsExpansion, not Cleanup
[08:14] <mdke> hmm
[08:14] <mdke> i had thought of the newsletter as showcasing the new hotness
[08:14] <mdke> the ToDo page is linked there
[08:14] <mdke> so people can see what needs work
[08:16] <Burgwork> I don't want to mention any crappy pages there, but I think we can safely mention those  pages which look good but are not complete
[08:16] <mdke> alright
[08:17] <Burgwork> thus I will not mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation/LVMOnRaid
[08:18] <mdke> lol
[08:18] <Burgwork> do we have a WikiStyleGuide ?
[08:18] <mdke> WikiGuide
[08:19] <Burgwork> ah
[08:19] <Burgwork> any thoughts on HelpingUbuntu ?
[08:20] <mdke> looks good
[08:20] <mdke> some dud links
[08:20] <Burgwork> yes, I wrote it last night when I was offline
[08:21] <mdke> perhaps link to ubuntu.com/community/participate
[08:22] <Burgwork> I would rather participate links to the wiki page, actually
[08:22] <Burgwork> as that participate page doesn't tell you who to contact
[08:25] <mdke> eventually the two pages should become one
[08:25] <Burgwork> yes
[08:25] <mdke> for now, all we can do is to make sure users see both
[08:25] <Burgwork> the idea behind helping Ubuntu is not to tell what what specifically can be done but to tell people where they can help
[08:26] <Burgwork> do you understand what I mean as the difference?
[08:26] <mdke> no
[08:26] <Burgwork> participate tells people "you can help with X subproject"
[08:26] <Burgwork> I think that is too much detail
[08:27] <Burgwork> HelpingUbuntu tells people "X project does X and here is where to find out what to do with them"
[08:27] <mdke> i suppose there is a small increase in detail on the participate page, yeah
[08:28] <Burgwork> that doesn't really scale
[08:28] <mdke> but in this case, I don't see why detail should be bad
[08:28] <Burgwork> I mention large subprojects, such as the wiki vs docs
[08:28] <Burgwork> but specific subprojects are bad
[08:28] <Burgwork> ie, which specific wiki pages you can edit
[08:28] <Burgwork> plus it doesn't have one link per section
[08:29] <Burgwork> I have two links: How to contact and What to do
[08:30] <mdke> i think that one page with a fair level of detail and clear links is better than two pages with varying levels of detail
[08:31] <Burgwork> participate has a bunch of really useless links that send people to non-Ubuntu pages
[08:32] <mdke> the fact that the page might be bad doesn't mean it has the wrong approach
[08:33] <mdke> anyway, i disagree, i think the links are useful
[08:33] <LaserJock> which pages?
[08:34] <mdke> LaserJock, ubuntu.com/community/participate
[08:34] <Burgwork> any links that send the person outside the ubuntu sphere is bad thing, if you are trying to get them to help Ubuntu
[08:34] <Burgwork> becuase those external pages have no  links back to Ubuntu
[08:34] <mdke> Burgwork, i don't understand that
[08:35] <mdke> there are some links to gnome related topics, and lugs, that is about it
[08:35] <Burgwork> mdke, but those are bad. They are ok on project pages, once the person is hooked, but not on the main "here is how to help Ubuntu page"
[08:35] <mdke> if a person is minded to help Ubuntu, that is what they do
[08:36] <Burgwork> yes, but it is basically playing bait and switch
[08:36] <Burgwork> Here is how to help Ubuntu. click on this link. Oh wait, that goes to a non-ubuntu site? WTF. Ok I give up
[08:37] <mdke> i still don't understand that
[08:37] <Burgwork> instead of "here is how to help ubuntu. Hmm, I like artwork.  Hmm, I contact the artwork team. Click on artwork team link. Hmm, here are some projects I can do"
[08:37] <Burgwork> then the artwork team page says "Art.gnome.org has some ideas/stuff
[08:37] <Burgwork> "'
[08:37] <mdke> then the person cries and gives up?
[08:37] <mdke> i don't think so
[08:38] <Burgwork> yes, they do. We have no way of finding out how  many people are crying and giving  up
[08:38] <Burgwork> plus the text size on the Ubuntu website makes my eyes hurt and is hard to read
[08:38] <mdke> so the person cries and gives up both ways?
[08:39] <mdke> this person of your sucks
[08:39] <mdke> yours*
[08:39] <Burgwork> so, with HelpingUbuntu they now know two things: Who to contact and what they are working on
[08:39] <Burgwork> participate doesn
[08:39] <Burgwork> t have any of that
[08:39] <mdke> i thought you said there is a link on HelpingUbuntu to the artworkteam page, which links to gnome?
[08:39] <Burgwork> *in a clear format, I might add
[08:39] <Burgwork> mdke, I said that the artwork team page can list art.gnome.org as an external resource, if you need help
[08:40] <Burgwork> like we can list the gnome-doc team as an external resource
[08:40] <mdke> that makes people cry tho
[08:40] <Burgwork> why?
[08:41] <mdke> < Burgwork> then the artwork team page says "Art.gnome.org has some ideas/stuff
[08:41] <mdke> < mdke> then the person cries and gives up? [19:37:58]  < mdke> i don't think so [19:38:31]  < Burgwork> yes, they do.
[08:41] <Burgwork> what I am saying is that if they come to a page on how to help Ubuntu, they don't expect external links that having nothing to do with Ubuntu on them
[08:46] <jjesse> Burgwork: i guess i would disagree, if helping (k)ubuntu requires me to go outside sites, like kde or gnome then i will poke around at those sites
[08:46] <jjesse> Burgwork: as long as we aren't recomemnding them to go to sites outside of official sties
[08:47] <Burgwork> jjesse, but how does going to external sites *first* help people help Ubuntu?
[08:47] <mdke> because those sites help Ubuntu
[08:47] <Burgwork> I have no objections to linking to them on team sites
[08:47] <Burgwork> just not on the first level "Help Ubuntu" page
[08:49] <jjesse> sorry for dropping link all the time, trying to get networking for qemu working :(
[08:57] <jjesse> sorry that i keep dropping link, trying to figure out networking for qemu
[09:20] <Burgwork> huh? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstituteTheDraftProposal
[09:27] <jjesse> whats that?
[09:28] <Burgwork> no idea, a random wiki page
[09:29] <Burgwork> the guy is posting the -doc list about his ideas
[09:49] <theCore> his system wouldn't be a bad idea ...
[10:06] <Burgwork> theCore, he needs to remove about half the words from hsi proposal
[10:08] <theCore> half the words .... ??
[10:11] <Burgwork> theCore, yes, at random, every third word
[10:11] <Burgwork> no better yet, every third letter
[10:12] <Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstituteTheDraftProposal <-- this is the too wordy proposal I am referring to
[10:12] <Burgwork> it also needs structure
[10:12] <mdke> and a new name
[10:13] <Burgwork> there might be good ideas in there but I cannot bring myself to read it
[10:14] <theCore> ah okay, i'm just saying that the idea of making a Ubuntu registry would be good, i don't really care about his syntax
[10:14] <Burgwork> theCore, if you word your ideas badly, no matter how good they are, nobody will accept them because nobody will read them
[10:15] <theCore> Burgwork, i know, that why I force myself to improve my english
[10:16] <Burgwork> theCore, my engrish is real good now, after only spaking it fur 18 yers
[10:17] <Burgwork> ;)
[10:18] <theCore> :)