[03:31] <klepas> mhz_BBS: :)
[03:52] <mhz> klepas: i just got back home and i am blasted
[03:52] <mhz> :(
[03:53] <mhz> I can commit to wake up earlier though
[03:53] <mhz> so I can shool you a little bit
[03:53] <mhz> bur before that, please use Moinmoin desktop edition
[03:54] <mhz> and once you unpack it, cd to the dir where you unpack it and do this:
[03:54] <mhz> ./moin
[03:54] <mhz> and then open a browser and visit localhost:8080
[03:57] <klepas> alrighty
[03:57] <klepas> gimme a few minutes
[04:02] <klepas> voila
[04:02] <klepas> this is really quite cool :)
[04:03] <mhz> indeed
[04:03] <mhz> see? nt touching your OS
[04:03] <mhz> not
[04:03] <mhz> okis
[04:03] <mhz> are we ready?
[04:03] <mhz> ;)
[04:03] <klepas> yep
[04:04] <mhz> okis
[04:04] <mhz> you are at the browser?
[04:04] <klepas> yes
[04:05] <mhz> everything we'll work on is after http://localhost:8080/
[04:05] <klepas> ok
[04:05] <mhz> before we begin, you have to remember this is web technology
[04:06] <mhz> and that every page is a link
[04:06] <klepas> yes
[04:06] <mhz> or treated as a link
[04:06] <mhz> what's your name?
[04:06] <klepas> first name?
[04:06] <klepas> Pascal :)
[04:06] <mhz> Pascal Klein
[04:06] <klepas> yep
[04:06] <mhz> okis
[04:07] <mhz> write http://localhost:8080/PascalKlein
[04:07] <mhz> just like that
[04:07] <klepas> yep
[04:07] <mhz> press enter :)
[04:07] <klepas> Page obviously does not yet exist and i have an option to create a new page with that name
[04:07] <mhz> exactly, dont d it
[04:07] <mhz> not yet
[04:08] <mhz> now write http://localhost:8080/pascal
[04:08] <klepas> same
[04:08] <mhz> of course
[04:08] <klepas> :)
[04:08] <mhz> but you just noticed that it will let you creeate
[04:09] <mhz> new pages just like that
[04:09] <klepas> yes
[04:09] <mhz> now, what do you know wikis are for?
[04:09] <klepas> to store information
[04:09] <klepas> which can be edited cooperatively
[04:09] <mhz> excelent
[04:10] <klepas> so people can share their knowledge or write about something in a cooperative manner
[04:10] <mhz> but then
[04:10] <mhz> if we collaboratively edit pages, how do others know we have created a page 'pascal' or PascalKelin?
[04:10] <klepas> they can sign up to these pages
[04:10] <mhz> yes
[04:11] <klepas> and be informed by email, for example of changes
[04:11] <mhz> but when editing a page?
[04:11] <klepas> When editing a page yes
[04:11] <mhz> how do i know if i have to write 'pascal'?
[04:11] <klepas> not too sure about the creation of new pages
[04:11] <mhz> or PascalKlein to get a link?
[04:11] <klepas> i assume that the function of signing up is somewhat configurable so that people can also be informed when new pages are made
[04:12] <mhz> yes
[04:12] <mhz> and no
[04:12] <mhz> klepas: the purpose of a good wiki is
[04:12] <mhz> that if I happen to write about the Artwork project,
[04:12] <mhz> and I want to let the readers know about Pascal
[04:13] <mhz> I want to have a link t your pages
[04:13] <mhz> or page
[04:13] <klepas> yes
[04:13] <mhz> to do so, I need to know if your page is Pascal, PascalKlein or pascal
[04:13] <klepas> a wiki is based on a network of links
[04:13] <mhz> because those 3 can be links or just words
[04:13] <mhz> so,
[04:14] <klepas> yes
[04:14] <mhz> a good standard policy to every wiki 
[04:14] <mhz> is we use CamelCase
[04:14] <mhz> which are 2 words put together
[04:14] <klepas> FirstwordLastword? :)
[04:14] <mhz> yup
[04:14] <mhz> excellent
[04:14] <mhz> and to avoid pascal as  link
[04:14] <mhz> :)
[04:14] <klepas> and they point to the respective wiki pages
[04:14] <mhz> or avoid Pascal
[04:14] <mhz> exactly
[04:15] <mhz> this way, we all know we use similar standards
[04:15] <mhz> and we'll make lots of links to useful or already existing pages
[04:15] <klepas> and if they do not exist they link to them anyway and the wiki will then realise that the page is non-existant and will allow you to create it :)
[04:15] <mhz> yes and no
[04:15] <mhz> yes if its 'syntax' is a link
[04:15] <mhz> and here we come to the diffs
[04:16] <mhz> Each wiki engine can use their own syntax
[04:16] <mhz> but 99% will always respect CamelCasing
[04:16] <klepas> good
[04:16] <mhz> now, 
[04:16] <mhz> last 2 needed standards:
[04:17] <mhz> 2) Avoid subpages
[04:17] <mhz> why?
[04:17] <mhz> klepas: why d you think I say s?
[04:17] <mhz> so
[04:17] <klepas> just to make clear
[04:17] <mhz> (sorry for my 'o's
[04:17] <klepas> sub pages are:
[04:17] <klepas> "/Artwork/UbuntuArtwork
[04:17] <mhz> Pascal/PascalKlein
[04:17] <klepas> for example?
[04:17] <mhz> yup
[04:17] <klepas> ah, good
[04:18] <klepas> Why should we avoid these?
[04:18] <mhz> or PascalKlein/MyMon
[04:18] <klepas> i would think that it would be a good thing
[04:18] <mhz> hehehe
[04:18] <mhz> every wiki newie thinks so
[04:18] <mhz> :D
[04:18] <klepas> especially since it is what we want to do with /Artwork
[04:18] <mhz> Example:
[04:19] <mhz> we have a wiki site about Australian families
[04:19] <mhz> How would you make the homepage for your family? What page name would it be?
[04:19] <klepas> "/KleinFamily" probably?
[04:20] <mhz> okis
[04:20] <mhz> blabla.org/KleinFamily
[04:20] <mhz> ok?
[04:20] <klepas> yes
[04:20] <mhz> now
[04:20] <mhz> Lets' say we have 300 hundred Klein people
[04:20] <klepas> lol, yep
[04:21] <mhz> from 90 diff families
[04:21] <mhz> what name will your family page be?
[04:22] <klepas> why not make it the /Klein
[04:22] <mhz> ok,
[04:22] <mhz> let's try the klein
[04:22] <mhz> Klein
[04:22] <mhz> sorry
[04:22] <klepas> and from then /Klein/BlahKlein
[04:22] <klepas> for each family?
[04:22] <mhz> ok
[04:23] <mhz> To show you
[04:23] <mhz> at http://localhost:8080/
[04:23] <mhz> Make your page http://localhost:8080/Klein
[04:23] <mhz> please
[04:23] <mhz> Choose no template
[04:23] <klepas> yes
[04:23] <klepas> just some plain text?
[04:24] <mhz> yes
[04:24] <mhz> whatever
[04:24] <klepas> done
[04:24] <klepas> save
[04:24] <mhz> this is only a test
[04:24] <mhz> ok
[04:24] <mhz> we see a nice Klein page?
[04:24] <klepas> yes
[04:24] <mhz> ok
[04:25] <mhz> now, http://localhost:8080/Zamora
[04:25] <mhz> please
[04:25] <klepas> new page as well?
[04:25] <mhz> yup
[04:25] <klepas> done
[04:26] <mhz> now, edit Klein page
[04:26] <mhz> and write blablabla Zamora blah.
[04:26] <mhz> and save
[04:26] <klepas> done
[04:27] <mhz> is Zamora considered a link?
[04:28] <klepas> no
[04:28] <klepas> no CamelCase
[04:28] <mhz> now, http://localhost:8080/Klein and edit it 
[04:28] <klepas> yes
[04:28] <mhz> using PascalKlein on the body, somewhere
[04:29] <klepas> [http://localhost:808/Zamora Zamora]  ?
[04:29] <mhz> nope
[04:29] <klepas> ok
[04:29] <klepas> added PascalKlein
[04:29] <klepas> and saved
[04:29] <mhz> does it show as link?
[04:29] <klepas> yes; it's CamelCase :)
[04:30] <mhz> edit same Klein page
[04:30] <klepas> yep
[04:30] <klepas> add what
[04:30] <mhz> and add ["Zamora"] 
[04:31] <klepas> ah, lovely
[04:31] <klepas> but this should be avoided entirely, no?
[04:31] <mhz> 1st question: which way is it faster?
[04:31] <klepas> CamelCase
[04:31] <mhz> 2nd question:
[04:31] <mhz> do you know what Zampra is?
[04:31] <mhz> Zamora
[04:32] <klepas> so this is why the /Artwork idea isn't so good
[04:32] <mhz> Zamora
[04:32] <klepas> it's not your last name is it?
[04:32] <klepas> :o)
[04:32] <mhz> Yes
[04:32] <mhz> but what if you just did not know
[04:32] <klepas> Mauricio Hermandez Zamora :)
[04:32] <mhz> exactly
[04:32] <mhz> :)
[04:33] <klepas> what do i do if i do not know?
[04:33] <mhz> what if we are 300 Klein people writing about our families
[04:33] <klepas> errm. Use 300 different wiki pages
[04:33] <mhz> and we have potential words that could have been aoutomagically linked to existing pages
[04:33] <klepas> because a central /Klein page would still be too confusing
[04:33] <mhz> but they were not autolinked because we did not use camel casing
[04:34] <mhz> Wikis are meant to be 'flat', 'horizontal'
[04:34] <klepas> and whenever someone tries to refer to a certain Foobar Klein no one will know wo whom they are referring too
[04:34] <mhz> exactly
[04:34] <klepas> yep
[04:34] <klepas> when are subpages applicable?
[04:34] <mhz> if we keeep a wiki 'flat' then we have more chances to get autolinked
[04:35] <mhz> wehn we dont care about 'autolinks' or
[04:35] <klepas> okay
[04:35] <mhz> when we have a responsible editors group taking care 
[04:35] <klepas> so, here's the bombshell question
[04:35] <mhz> of such things
[04:35] <klepas> what would you propose
[04:35] <klepas> to do with the /Artwork wiki pages?
[04:36] <klepas> :)
[04:36] <mhz> difficult to answer
[04:36] <mhz> I guess
[04:36] <mhz> that we have to find the most general stuff common to all artwork projects
[04:37] <klepas> okay
[04:37] <mhz> (logo, theme, palletes, etc)
[04:37] <klepas> and make seperate /UbuntuArtwork, /KubuntuArtwork pages
[04:37] <mhz> and then, only then, create maybe one or two (no more) sblevels
[04:37] <klepas> and then the unfied stuff goes into /SplashScreens for example?
[04:37] <mhz> or
[04:37] <klepas> mmhh
[04:39] <mhz> we could have no unification at all
[04:39] <klepas> mhh
[04:39] <mhz> or
[04:39] <klepas> i think we could just stick with what we've decided now
[04:39] <klepas> but i guess if this new proposal for the wiki does not work out we can always change it
[04:40] <mhz> if we know that we'll have some people responsible for each falvour's pages, we could
[04:40] <klepas> yep
[04:40] <mhz> just take care of linking to that flaovurs homepage
[04:40] <klepas> well i am happy to do Ubunut, Kubuntu and maybe even some Edubuntu
[04:40] <klepas> :)
[04:40] <klepas> *Ubuntu
[04:41] <mhz> or
[04:41] <mhz> I'd be very happy to see
[04:41] <mhz> XubuntuArtworkSplashScreen
[04:41] <mhz> XubuntuArtworkLogo
[04:41] <mhz> XubuntuArtworkTheme
[04:41] <mhz> XubuntuArtworkColorPallete
[04:41] <mhz> etc
[04:41] <klepas> mhh
[04:42] <klepas> sounds a bit tedious
[04:42] <mhz> Looong KISS and tedious when writing
[04:42] <mhz> but believe me...
[04:42] <mhz> end users will immediately get the idea where they are heading
[04:42] <mhz> and the good thing is..
[04:42] <klepas> yeah, true
[04:42] <klepas> well, how about
[04:43] <mhz> we can make those links to show up Xubuntu Artwork Logo
[04:43] <klepas> we go through with the proposal that we agreed
[04:43] <mhz> intead of sticky
[04:43] <klepas> and then, if we wish to change it at a later stage, we will
[04:44] <mhz> current proposal involves many subpages
[04:44] <mhz> so if you dont know the path to them..
[04:44] <mhz> how will you get there?
[04:45] <klepas> that is one thing we want to make sure remains easy
[04:45] <klepas> we want to set out /Artwork really well
[04:45] <mhz> exactly
[04:45] <klepas> so anyone who is unsure will be able to find it still quickly
[04:45] <mhz> today
[04:45] <mhz> if you have no subpages
[04:45] <mhz> and write on the search area
[04:46] <mhz> pascal and hit 'enter'
[04:46] <mhz> you will 100% see all pages having pascal on their title
[04:46] <klepas> so if we have /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Splash
[04:46] <klepas> and you do a search for 'splash"
[04:46] <klepas> will you find /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Splash
[04:47] <mhz> it will probably get you there but it will take MUCH more to get it
[04:47] <mhz> because it 1st reads the top level pages
[04:47] <mhz> then subpages
[04:47] <mhz> remember it's a wiki engine
[04:47] <klepas> yes
[04:48] <klepas> alright
[04:48] <klepas> i understand now the pros and cons of using subpages
[04:48] <mhz> and when you edit a page and want to link it to 'splash' of Ubuntu, how would you know that's the path?
[04:48] <klepas> yea
[04:48] <klepas> well, for now it has to wait
[04:48] <mhz> yup
[04:48] <klepas> we want to fix the wiki first
[04:48] <klepas> in the manner agreed at the meeting
[04:48] <mhz> yes
[04:48] <klepas> mhh
[04:48] <klepas> "#redirect ArtworkTodoProposal
[04:48] <klepas> :)
[04:49] <mhz> but we gotta make a proposal
[04:49] <klepas> i think i will be able to change it
[04:49] <mhz> and I am 'wasted' tired
[04:49] <mhz> so, my brain is not letting me be clear as i should
[04:49] <mhz> klepas: sorry
[04:50] <mhz> I gotta hit the envelope
[04:50] <mhz> see ya soon
[04:50] <klepas> cheers
[04:50] <mhz> bye
[04:50] <klepas> thanks for the help :)
[04:50] <mhz> np
[09:28] <artnay> hey klepas 
[09:28] <artnay> seems like you and mhz have been planning something
[09:28] <artnay> I've been away for some days now, so I'm a bit "outdated" :)
[09:30] <artnay> klepas: and do we have any word about imagemagick support? we could create FAQ and/or script for AUC
[11:38] <artnay> hey lukacu 
[11:38] <artnay> hey all :o
[12:26] <lukacu> hello artnay
[12:29] <klepas> hey
[12:31] <klepas> lukacu: i'll send you a copy of what i've been thinking about AUC tomorrow
[12:32] <artnay> so how are you?
[12:32] <artnay> everything fine after NYE? :)
[12:33] <artnay> well, actually I read the log and it seemed none of you were online back then :)
[12:33] <artnay> klepas: did you take a look at the log?
[12:33] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
[12:33] <artnay> I discussed about that one earlier
[12:35] <artnay> I mainly wondered why there was a section for each of us
[12:35] <artnay> and why isn't that page mentioned at /Artwork
[12:35] <artnay> so we all could build the structure, not just the three of us.
[12:35] <artnay> we could discuss here on IRC and make the changes to one proposal
[12:36] <artnay> or do we need separate sections?
[12:37] <klepas> artnay: now's not a great time for me
[12:37] <artnay> we still do have a meeting on 5th?
[12:37] <klepas> i need to go soon
[12:37] <klepas> but yea
[12:37] <artnay> I'll edit /Artwork
[12:37] <klepas> check that voting page again for the meeting stuff
[12:37] <klepas> we're voting for either Thursday or Friday
[12:37] <klepas> 2300 UTC
[12:37] <artnay> umh
[12:37] <klepas> i'm very sorry i haven't gotten out the minutes yet
[12:37] <artnay> ok
[12:37] <artnay> well I'll update it anyways
[12:37] <klepas> my parents left for a week
[12:37] <klepas> and i need to look after the house
[12:38] <klepas> and i have to work tomorrow at 4 AM
[12:38] <klepas> and it's 22:38 now
[12:38] <klepas> ugh
[12:38] <klepas> either way
[12:38] <klepas> i'll try to send out the minutes tonight
[12:38] <klepas> which wiki page should i put it on?
[12:38] <klepas> or and check /Artwork
[12:38] <klepas> i've changed the redirect
[12:39] <klepas> and now it's a blank page plus some quick writting from me
[12:39] <klepas> so we can begin the restructuring
[12:39] <artnay> eh
[12:39] <artnay> why isn't information on /ArtworkTodoProposal listed there?
[12:39] <artnay> that's unnecessary
[12:40] <artnay> duh, /Artwork doesn't even have a mention of /ArtworkTodoProposal
[12:40] <lukacu> hello klepas, artnay
[12:40] <klepas> sorry
[12:40] <artnay> so how on earth are people to supposed vote for the next date? :o
[12:40] <klepas> we need to start this restructuring
[12:40] <klepas> while we're doing that we can link to the proposal
[12:40] <artnay> well is /Artwork your proposal?
[12:40] <lukacu> klepas: send it on my maillist address
[12:41] <klepas> yep
[12:41] <klepas> isn't that what we agreed on?
[12:41] <klepas> i just copied what we had in the wiki section of the proposal
[12:41] <klepas> and altered it a wee bit
[12:41] <artnay> I though you'd use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
[12:42] <artnay> +t
[12:42] <artnay> nevermind
[12:42] <artnay> it's only getting uglier than ever ;)
[12:43] <artnay> but hey, let's chat more when you have time for that
[12:43] <klepas> yep
[12:43] <artnay> I'll update /ArtworkTodoProposal, could you update /Artwork to contain a link to /ArtworkTodoProposal
[12:43] <klepas> sadly that will be in a fair while
[12:43] <klepas> yes
[12:43] <artnay> cool
[12:43] <klepas> feel free to start working on /Artwork
[12:44] <artnay> you still have plenty of time
[12:44] <artnay> to sleep, I mean
[12:44] <artnay> 3 hours is enough for everybody
[12:44] <klepas> less than 5 hours
[12:44] <artnay> x) x)
[12:44] <klepas> lol
[12:46] <klepas> we should also make the page /ArtWork rather than /Artwork
[12:46] <klepas> for CamelCase linking
[12:46] <klepas> anyway
[12:46] <artnay> sure, why not
[12:47] <artnay> but first of all, the structure has to be ideal
[12:47] <artnay> then do these "minor changes" that affect usability
[12:47] <artnay> well, actually it should be done simultaneosly
[12:48] <klepas> yep
[12:48] <klepas> i'll work more on it later
[12:48] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
[12:48] <artnay> updated
[12:48] <klepas> i need to eat something and get ready for tomorrow
[12:48] <klepas> and thn sleep
[12:48] <klepas> thanks
[12:49] <artnay> ok, take care mate
[12:49] <klepas> yep
[12:49] <klepas> btw, vote if you haven't
[12:49] <klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting
[12:49] <klepas> cheers
[12:50] <artnay> I guess I'm not available on Friday
[12:50] <artnay> so I have to my vote on 5th
[12:51] <artnay> any word from canonical?
[12:51] <artnay> AUC, branding guide, anything?
[12:53] <artnay> d/na
[12:53] <artnay> I was just going to ask if could edit /ArtworkTodoProposal to include /Artwork
[12:53] <artnay> but seems like you changed /Artwork already
[12:54] <artnay> how does one get "date" printed into wiki easily?
[12:55] <artnay> klepas: and you didn't tell your opinion on /ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
[12:55] <artnay> *grr*
[12:55] <artnay> ;)
[01:04] <artnay> I still need an "ok" to change StructureProposal
[01:04] <artnay> hey AndyFitz 
[01:04] <artnay> how are you?
[01:05] <AndyFitz> g'day g'day
[01:05] <AndyFitz> I'm good.  and alive for 2006 !
[01:05] <artnay> AndyFitz: we had a (quite disorganized) meeting last thursday
[01:05] <AndyFitz> how are you artnay ?
[01:05] <artnay> pretty buzy, haven't been on computer for a few days
[01:05] <artnay> so now I have go through logs etc.
[01:06] <artnay> http://hdr.unk.fi/~artnay/leaf_by_machine6featUbuntu.png - something green for us (blends pretty well with brown and black)
[01:06] <AndyFitz> it was held in #ubuntu-meeting ?
[01:06] <artnay> AndyFitz: yes, it was
[01:07] <artnay> although there wasn't much artwork team members present, but we still got a few things straight
[01:08] <artnay> like building wiki structure (and we're supposed to renew it before the next meeting, quite tight schedule), renewing AUC, trying to build a better information channel between canonical and artwork team (to get AUC done right and to get that branding guide finally)
[01:10] <artnay> AndyFitz: how's your LCA presentation?
[01:16] <AndyFitz> artnay  it will be fun
[01:17] <AndyFitz> fontforge may have a bigger mention than I thought it should have  but hey I guess I'm in love with an ugly app
[01:23] <artnay> hehe, never tried that one
[01:24] <artnay> so is LCA webcasted?
[01:28] <artnay> http://www.livejournal.com/users/cniehaus/12822.html - nice, I've never understood how all those materials are utilized and in which technologies etc.
[01:29] <artnay> something to make it easier to comprehend
[01:44] <Tm_T> :)
[01:45] <Tm_T> artnay: you got ready that theme you were playing around?
[01:49] <artnay> Tm_T: no, not yet :)
[01:49] <artnay> I'm trying to build new splash using moodin engine
[01:50] <artnay> I'm off, bye