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[12:15] <Robi-> how does one check if a pipe died ?
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[12:21] <Robi-> live ones?
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[12:23] <psusi> what do you mean died?
[12:24] <psusi> if the other process closes the pipe, you get a SIGPIPE
[12:24] <psusi> and the default handler exits
[12:24] <Robi-> that's all i got psusi 
[12:24] <psusi> huh?
[12:24] <Robi-> postfix wont deliver mail with an error that procmail does with an error
[12:25] <Robi-> ... status=bounced (can't create user output file. Command output: procmail: Error while writing to "/var/mail/robi" )
[12:25] <Robi-> procmail docs say it's 1 of 4 things
[12:25] <Robi-> 3 i can verify is not the case, 4th is pipe died.
[12:25] <psusi> that looks to me like a permissions problem... it can't write to /var/mail/robi
[12:26] <Robi-> not that simple
[12:26] <Robi-> -rw-rw----   1 robi     mail 51199596 Jan  1 14:12 robi
[12:26] <psusi> chmod u+rw robi
[12:27] <psusi> maybe postfix isn't in the mail group?
[12:27] <Robi-> ya checking that too
[12:28] <Robi-> psusi , it wasn't..
[12:29] <Robi-> psusi , still no cigar, same error
[12:29] <Robi-> no mail delivery
[12:30] <Robi-> weird thing is it removed the msg out of the queue right away too
[12:30] <Robi-> immediately tries to reply with a failure error, and since it can't [sent from local acct]  it nukes it
[12:32] <Robi-> any other ideas?
[12:35] <Robi-> psusi, just checking, it can deliver to other accounts
[12:38] <Robi-> so strange
[12:38] <Robi-> it's not my .procmailrc either
[12:39] <Robi-> just renamed it
[12:41] <psusi> hrm... no idea
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[12:50] <Robi-> psusi, ok here's some more interesting things
[12:50] <Robi-> if i rename my spool file it delivers fine to a new one of the same name
[12:51] <Robi-> if i putit back, it errors
[12:51] <Robi-> it delivers to other accoutns fine
[12:52] <psusi> well, there's something wrong with your spool file then ;)
[12:52] <Robi-> psusi , ya like what ;]  ti's size is teh only thing radically diff from the others
[12:52] <Robi-> -rw-rw----   1 robi     mail 51199596 Jan  1 15:43 robi
[12:53] <psusi> Ummm.... you need to get the mail out of there ;)
[12:53] <psusi> the spools in /var/mail are only supposed to hold new messages
[12:54] <psusi> mail clients usually move messages to your home directory as far as I know
[12:54] <psusi> in theory, it should be ok I guess...
[12:54] <psusi> but it looks like something doesn't like that big of a spool
[12:54] <Robi-> psusi , i've always kept mail in inbox, since it's local
[12:55] <Robi-> any folders get saved locally
[12:55] <psusi> either that or maybe the file doesn't have a correct ending
[12:58] <Robi-> psusi , tried that too, cat small new email to end of big spool , moved spool into place, no delivery, same error
[12:58] <Robi-> psusi , next i'll try manually shaving some msgs to bring teh size down
[12:59] <psusi> I went through the other day and found I had 300 megs of email
[12:59] <psusi> compressed it with 7zip in ppmd mode and it shrank down to like 25 megs
[01:00] <Robi-> ppmd ?
[01:00] <psusi> it's a statistical compression algorithm that works very well for text
[01:01] <Robi-> ya but you can't do that on a mail spool and have it stay ;] 
[01:01] <Robi-> so 7z is better than zip/arj/rar
[01:01] <psusi> sometimes you can do better with lzma, but only if you use a dictionary size at least as large as the file you are compressing, which requires a TON of ram and cpu time
[01:01] <psusi> WAY better
[01:02] <psusi> I took a working directory at work full of source and object code... it was 25 megs iirc
[01:02] <psusi> winzip got it down to 2.5 megs, winrar got it down to 2.1 megs
[01:02] <psusi> 7zip got it down to 720 KB
[01:03] <psusi> it's lzma mode also is faster at decompressing than bzip2, and usually gets about 30% smaller archives
[01:04] <psusi> compressing is very slow though... and needs tons of ram
[01:05] <Robi-> psusi , cool
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[01:09] <Robi-> psusi, it's totaly size it appears
[01:09] <Robi-> and i don't know why
[01:09] <Robi-> 50 mb lmit on mailboxes
[01:09] <Robi-> how is that possible
[01:10] <HrdwrBoB> because the compression/decompress would be hell on the CPU
[01:11] <HrdwrBoB> I can tell you that running a decent mailserver setup is hard enough
[01:11] <Kamion> This doesn't seem very relevant to Ubuntu development; perhaps you guys could find a different channel?
[01:11] <HrdwrBoB> yes
[01:11] <HrdwrBoB> it's offtopic
[01:13] <psusi> I've been playing with cdrw packet writing mode and read/write udf filesystems lately... I wonder, should I write up a proposal to add support for it to ubuntu?
[01:13] <Robi-> ya i agree, thanks for helping get to the bottom of the problem
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[01:13] <psusi> and if so, how would I go about doing that and would anyone else be interested?
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[01:33] <Kamion> elmo: please sync preseed, overwriting Ubuntu changes
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[02:00] <wftl> Does anybody want to stick their neck out and express an opinion as to the status of the live/graphical installer for Dapper?
[02:00] <wftl> [ insert appropriate smiley here ] 
[02:01] <raphink> :)
[02:01] <raphink> do you have screenshots?
[02:01] <HiddenWolf> wftl, at this point, not started yet.
[02:01] <HiddenWolf> raphink, as a result, no
[02:01] <raphink> oki
[02:01] <raphink> it'll be a surprise then
[02:01] <wftl> Thanks, HiddenWolf.  Do you think it's going to happen for Dapper? 
[02:01] <raphink> :)
[02:02] <HiddenWolf> wftl, it will
[02:02] <Kamion> wftl: HiddenWolf isn't quite accurate that it's not started yet; but it's not far enough along yet to give you shiny screenshots
[02:02] <wftl> Thanks, I appreciate it.  I'm hoping I can write it up by the end of this month. Wish me luck.
[02:03] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, I'm only qouting dapper-dev-status 22dec. :)
[02:03] <HiddenWolf> "to be started in jan"
[02:03] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: *shrug*, I'm only the developer responsible for it, ignore me if you like ...
[02:04] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, I know. ;) 
[02:04] <Kamion> and that's not really an accurate summary of what I said in the relevant meeting
[02:04] <HiddenWolf> hm.
[02:04] <HiddenWolf> "specs to be focussed in jan"
[02:04] <Kamion> whatever
[02:04] <psusi> how is unionfs + squashfs looking to replace cloop?
[02:04] <HiddenWolf> Anyway, I can't wait. :)
[02:10] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, when do you think an ue daily can be put together?
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[03:29] <whiprush> jdub: ping
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[04:09] <psusi> does anyone know of somewhere you can download the linux kernel mailing list archives from?
[04:12] <SEJeff> psusi, wget -r lkml.org ;-)
[04:13] <psusi> rofl
[04:13] <psusi> I am about to snap
[04:14] <psusi> I've spent an hour searching the web and there are dozens of sites that have web portholes to browse the archives
[04:14] <psusi> but not one lets you just download them
[04:14] <psusi> searching the archives on the web drives me insane... no good search engines for it, they just use google, which comes up with all kinds of duplicate and false hits
[04:14] <SEJeff> Imagine how much bandwidth that would be
[04:15] <psusi> not that much when compressed ;)
[04:15] <SEJeff> even with boolean searches?
[04:15] <psusi> why can't someone just have a nice mbox.bz2 for each month or something?
[04:16] <SEJeff> Good question actually
[04:17] <psusi> I simply can't believe nobody does
[04:18] <psusi> hey, as long as you're around, maybe I'll ask this... I'm hacking on cdrw packet write mode support... should I write a spec on it on the wiki and register it on launchpad?
[04:19] <SEJeff> psusi, Does it work? Thats great. If you have the time, yes please do
[04:19] <psusi> got any advice/pointers/reference docs on how to do that exactly?
[04:20] <SEJeff> nope
[04:20] <psusi> I made a custom hal fdi policy that allows the system to auto mount the disc... needs a bit more polish so it doesn't try that on non packet mode discs though
[04:20] <SEJeff> Sorry, I'm multitasking right now. I'm writing policies for vSecurity to allow some suid root binaries to no longer be suid root in dapper
[04:21] <psusi> and it seems that the pktvdcd driver in the kernel is hard coded to use a 64 kb packet size, which wastes a lot of space to packet headers and slows down throughput... that's going to need fixed to use the packet size the disc specifies, and preferably use a larger size by default
[04:21] <SEJeff> psusi, Hopefully you submit that upstream once it is working
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[04:21] <SEJeff> psusi, You might want to contact upstream for sure about that
[04:22] <psusi> well, the hal fdi policy I think should be generated by the debconf in the udftools package
[04:22] <psusi> when you configure that package, it sets up the pktcdvd device... it just needs to also add the hal fdi policy at the same time
[04:22] <psusi> since the policy has to point the system to the pktcdvd instead of /dev/hda
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[04:32] <teprrr> hello there, someone mentioned something about ati breakage in dapper on meeting logs.. what's that all about?
[04:33] <teprrr> X crashes when trying to do gl stuff?
[04:34] <jdub> whiprush: pong
[04:34] <jdub> whiprush: hrm, i'll be back in a minute
[04:34] <Tm_T> teprrr: :)
[04:34] <whiprush> jdub: just wanted to point out that the <ul> bullets don't look as cool on the fridge as they do on planet.
[04:34] <teprrr> Tm_T, o_O
[04:34] <Tm_T> teprrr: still got that problem?
[04:34] <teprrr> Tm_T, yup..
[04:35] <Tm_T> fun
[04:35] <teprrr> quite, yes.. odd that no one on ubuntuforums.org is having the same problem..
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[06:12] <fabbione> morning guys
[06:16] <ajmitch> morning fabbione 
[06:21] <jsgotangco> hey ajmitch fabbione happy new year =)
[06:21] <Burgundavia> indeed
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[06:50] <Burgundavia> fabbione, do you know if the HP custom stuff was merged into Breezy?
[06:54] <fabbione> Burgundavia: i am not 100% sure, but i assume so
[06:54] <whiprush> hey has anyone else seen total lockups with the last 2 kernels on thinkpads?
[06:54] <Burgundavia> fabbione, whom else should I ask about that?
[06:54] <fabbione> Burgundavia: probably Kamion or mjg59 
[06:55] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:55] <fabbione> i wasn't involved directly into the project, so i am really not sure
[06:57] <crimsun> whiprush: 2.6.15-9.14 and 2.6.15-10.15?
[06:57] <whiprush> crimsun: both.
[06:57] <whiprush> -8 works fine.
[06:57] <crimsun> whiprush: both work fine on this X41-2527. What issues?
[06:57] <crimsun> oh, the lockups
[06:57] <whiprush> just randomly freezes 
[06:58] <whiprush> hard. can't ssh in or anything, just freezes right up.
[06:59] <crimsun> hmm, can't say I have, but I'm known to push stuff into being OOMkilled
[06:59] <whiprush> k, I will look into it further.
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[07:05] <mjg59> whiprush: T series?
[07:06] <Burgundavia> mjg59, since your here:  do you know if the HP custom stuff was merged into Breezy?
[07:06] <mjg59> Also: woo, my SD reader works properly now (well, "properly" - it's still about 50 times slower than it should be)
[07:06] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Yes
[07:07] <Burgundavia> mjg59, and is this a bug that needs to be fixed? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/e02a
[07:07] <mjg59> It's a bug that is fixed
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[07:08] <Burgundavia> mjg59, hmm, thought I saw it on my laptop yesterday. Will check
[07:08] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Oh, it may not have made it into Ubuntu yet
[07:08] <Burgundavia> mjg59, ah, ok
[07:08] <mjg59> elmo: Can you sync hotkey-setup, overwriting Ubuntu changes?
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[07:27] <whiprush> mjg59: X series, X40
[07:28] <doko> good morning
[07:29] <zakame> hi doko :)
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[08:24] <zakame> elmo: please sync eris from Sid, overriding Ubuntu ok :)
[08:38] <mjg59> whiprush: What wireless?
[08:38] <whiprush> madwifi
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[08:40] <mjg59> Hm
[08:40] <mjg59> I haven't seen it here, but I'm using intel wireless
[08:41] <whiprush> I'll try all-wired tomorrow, see if it's the problem.
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[09:08] <sivang> Morning all
[09:08] <zakame> heya sivang :)
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[09:24] <sivang> Burgundavia: do you know what he wanted?
[09:25] <sivang> hey zakame , how are you this new year?
[09:26] <zakame> sivang: very much ok :) still having some merges to do, and all hopeful for what's in store :)
[09:26] <sivang> zakame: cool, I wish I could also join the joy of mergers.
[09:28] <zakame> sivang: it's not too late yet :)
[09:33] <zakame> elmo: please sync ncmpc from Sid, overriding Ubuntu ok :)
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[10:01] <dholbach> good morning and happy new year! :-)
[10:01] <jsgotangco> dholbach: happy new year
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[10:01] <dholbach> hey jerome! :)
[10:02] <sivang> dholbach: morning, happy new year to you too :)
[10:02] <dholbach> hey sivang :-)
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[10:20] <Mithrandir> hmm, remind me, what's the target for uploads to breezy-updates?  breezy-updates?
[10:21] <fabbione> yup
[10:22] <dholbach> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/breezy-changes/2005-December/012858.html  has breezy-updates too
[10:24] <Mithrandir> and version number should just be -1ubuntu2, since previous one was -1ubuntu1, I guess.
[10:24] <Mithrandir> or 1.1?
[10:27] <dholbach> which version do we have in dapper?
[10:30] <Mithrandir> newer upstream version
[10:30] <Mithrandir> it's evms
[10:31] <dholbach> if we have a new upstream version it doesn't really matter, how you call it, imho :)
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[10:47] <pitti> hi everybody, happy new year!
[10:47] <Robi-> is there an easy way to remove all x-related packages?
[10:47] <Robi-> and libs
[10:49] <zakame> Robi-: hm, `apt-get remove libx11-6` perhaps?
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[10:50] <Robi-> zakame, what about xterm, gnome stuff, etc
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[10:51] <zakame> Robi-: Just did that here, it removes all that ;)
[10:51] <Robi-> wow it does, how'd you figure all that out ?
[10:51] <zakame> Robi-: er `apt-get --simulate --purge remove libx11-6`
[10:52] <Robi-> zakame , no no, how did you know to use libx11-6
[10:52] <zakame> Robi-: ah, well libx11-6 used to be xlibs
[10:53] <Robi-> zakame , sweet, so it's a meta pkg ?
[10:53] <zakame> so back then it should be `... remove xlibs`, and perhaps xlibs-dev
[10:54] <Robi-> where's a list of all of these, makes it much easier to install a set of stuff and get rid of it too
[10:54] <Robi-> over the years there's so much cruft when trying stuff out
[10:54] <Robi-> then upgrades take forever for stuff you dont even use, like most of the docs
[10:55] <zakame> hm good question, I myself found that out the hard way (looking at the /usr/share/doc one rainy morning ;)
[10:55] <zakame> jdub: ping, can you add me to Planet Ubuntu? :)
[10:55] <Robi-> heh, well thanks a bunch for the tip
[10:56] <zakame> no prob Robi- :)
[10:56] <Robi-> saved me hours
[10:56] <dholbach> zakame: probably best to write him a mail with rss feed and link to hackergotchi :)
[10:56] <zakame> dholbach: ah, will do that then :)
[10:56] <Robi-> now if i can only figure out why procmail has around a 50MB limit on mailbox size it will deliver to
[10:58] <zakame> hm? why would that be so? my procmail here has been putting mails into mboxes way bigger than that :/
[10:59] <Robi-> i have no idea, i just spent 2 days troubleshooting why i wasn't getting mail and that's the case
[10:59] <zakame> hm indeed :(
[10:59] <Robi-> once i deleted some mails and gotten below 50mb it delivers w/o a problem otherwise i have a weird error:
[10:59] <Robi-> ... status=bounced (can't create user output file. Command output: procmail: Error while writing to "/var/mail/robi" )
[10:59] <zakame> perhaps there's a quota on /var/mail
[11:00] <Treenaks> Robi-: this is why I prefer maildir :)
[11:00] <Robi-> which then deletes the email from the queue and sends an error back right away
[11:00] <Robi-> zakame, quota not installed
[11:00] <Treenaks> there could also be a config option in procmail?
[11:00] <zakame> hm, stumped :(
[11:00] <Robi-> Treenaks , can't find procmail in etc
[11:00] <Robi-> ditto
[11:00] <Treenaks> switch to maildir ;)
[11:01] <Robi-> that's not a fix
[11:01] <Treenaks> it is :)
[11:01] <Robi-> i've always had it this way
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[11:04] <Robi-> yea it's very odd
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[11:17] <tepsipakki> lamont: how do you feel about patching util-linux/mount to support NFSv4? The patches are a year old, so I'd say they are stable...
[11:18] <tepsipakki> afaik debian/ubuntu is the only major distro not supporting NFSv4 on userland
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[11:32] <ajmitch> elmo: please sync: php4-sqlite, python-biopython, pype, python-iplib, bzrtools from debian, dropping ubuntu changes thanks
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[11:39] <pitti> jamesh: ping
[11:39] <jamesh> pitti: hi
[11:39] <pitti> jamesh: bzr is using your openssh push now, right?
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[11:40] <jamesh> yeah (it has been improved a bit since then by the bzr developers)
[11:40] <pitti> jamesh: this ' WARNING: Unable to update the working tree...' error is pretty annoying; do you know whether this is the fault of the current openssh push plugin or a more generic one?
[11:40] <pitti> jamesh: so far I always have to ssh to the remote target and do 'bzr revert' to update the working tree (and this even fails if there are subdirs)
[11:41] <jamesh> pitti: the sftp push creates a branch without a working tree, so the second bit is normal
[11:42] <jamesh> pitti: if you want an updated working tree, the rsync push is probably the right option
[11:42] <pitti> uh, that's pretty ugly
[11:42] <pitti> jamesh: right, but that removes files in the remote tree, so it's suboptimal for me, too
[11:42] <pitti> jamesh: e. g. in my remote ubuntu-cve tree I have 400 MB worth of cached files which are precious
[11:42] <jamesh> pitti: none of the working tree files are used when you pull from the remote location
[11:43] <pitti> I know, but the remote tree is actually used in cron scripts
[11:44] <jamesh> pitti: if you create a working tree on the server with "bzr branch", you could get your cron script to use that
[11:44] <pitti> jamesh: ok, so I'll just modify my cron script to remove the working tree and do bzr revert; that should work
[11:44] <jamesh> pitti: a simple "bzr pull" should be enough to pull in new changes
[11:44] <pitti> ah, or what you proposed
[11:44] <pitti> no, pull doesn't work for that, I tried
[11:44] <pitti> I did that yesterday and was pretty surprised why my working tree was out of date
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[11:45] <jamesh> maybe do a "bzr pull --remember ~/public_html/branch-dir" once would do
[11:45] <pitti> oh, pull on the remote server, you mean? could be
[11:45] <jamesh> yeah
[11:45] <pitti> I'll play around with that; thanks
[11:46] <pitti> I did push on my desktop to people.u.c, and pull on my laptop, and this didn't update the working tree
[11:46] <jamesh> that should update the working copy on your laptop
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[11:46] <pitti> (I use sftp:// pull)
[11:48] <jamesh> that might be a bug
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[11:49] <pitti> it is awfully slow, right
[11:49] <pitti> but avoids problems with my ISP's http proxy
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[11:50] <jamesh> I keep an rsync'd copy of the branch locally, and merge from that
[11:50] <pitti> hm, all these workarounds...
[11:50] <jamesh> and use the rsync push
[11:51] <jamesh> pitti: the solution they're looking at is a smart server
[11:51] <pitti> hm, rsync is much easier...
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[11:58] <pitti> Kamion: happy new year!
[11:58] <pitti> Kamion: is it known that both the amd64 and ppc live CDs do not boot?
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[12:00] <hunger>  Happy new year to all of you!
[12:01] <pitti> hunger: happy new year for you, too
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[12:17] <mvo> Kamion: around? 
[12:17] <dholbach> mvo: he did some uploads until 2:30 in the morning
[12:18] <mvo> dholbach: thanks
[12:26] <Mithrandir> it's also a bank holiday in the UK today
[12:27] <mvo> aha, thanks (and happy new year :)
[12:28] <Mithrandir> the same to you
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[12:32] <sebest> dholbach: hello
[12:36] <Mithrandir> Kamion: if I could have "splash" on the live kernel command line, I'd be happy.
[12:37] <dholbach> hey sebest - how are you doing? happy new year! :)
[12:37] <sebest> dholbach: i'm really fine, happy new year too! :)
[12:38] <dholbach> thanks :)
[12:38] <sebest> dholbach: i answered to your bug report on avahi
[12:38] <dholbach> i didn't write a bug report :)
[12:38] <dholbach> but i subscribed the avahi team to all avahi bugs i encountered, so i hope they'll follow up
[12:38] <Kamion> pitti: nope, feel free to investigate
[12:38] <Kamion> mvo: hi
[12:39] <Kamion> (sort of around, just checking in)
[12:39] <sebest> dholbach: https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/6088
[12:39] <sebest> maybe you just assigned it :)
[12:39] <Kamion> Mithrandir: ok, will do
[12:39] <Mithrandir> Kamion: cheers
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[12:40] <Kamion> Mithrandir: all arches?
[12:40] <Mithrandir> Kamion: yes, please.  It's just so usplash gets started, it should be harmless if there's no usplash on an arch
[12:40] <Mithrandir> hi Simira 
[12:41] <Simira> morning
[12:42] <mvo> Kamion: happy new year! I was toying with the idea of a libcurl based download method for apt, would this be a problem for the installer?
[12:42] <Kamion> Mithrandir: done
[12:43] <Kamion> mvo: as long as you depend on whatever you need it's fine
[12:43] <mvo> cool, thanks
[12:43] <Kamion> Mithrandir: you get to investigate live CD boot failures today :)
[12:44] <Mithrandir> Kamion: oh?  They work for me. :-)
[12:45] <Mithrandir> Kamion: also, any reason why user-setup isn't a deb and part of the live seed?
[12:45] <hile> Mithrandir, btw I was just checking _why_ there is bank holiday in UK today, seems to be a scottish tradition (Hogmanay), not britihs
[12:45] <Kamion> Mithrandir: what pitti said ...
[12:46] <Kamion> Mithrandir: support for building a .deb is checked in upstream already, just not uploaded yet I think
[12:46] <hile> funny things you learn...
[12:46] <Kamion> hile: the 2 January bank holiday this year is a substitute for the New Year's Day bank holiday
[12:46] <hile> ok
[12:47] <hile> it's also a bank holiday in scotland anyway ;)
[12:47] <Mithrandir> Kamion: hmm, ok.
[12:48] <Mithrandir> pitti: what kind of problem do you see wrt booting?
[12:48] <Kamion> hile: the Hogmanay bank holiday in Scotland is moved to 3 January this year due to the way weekends fall
[12:48] <Kamion> hile: er, hmm, maybe the other way round actually
[12:49] <Kamion> yeah, the New Year's Day bank holiday is 3 January; go figure
[12:49] <hile> simple ;)
[12:50] <hile> in finland we don't have such luxury - if the bank holiday is during a weekend, well, tough luck
[12:50] <Kamion> BTW folks, it will entirely not surprise me in any way if there's install CD breakage due to the death of base-config, but I'd like to know about it
[12:53] <Kamion> Mithrandir: is the live CD meant to be defaulting the locale to aa_DJ.UTF-8?
[12:54] <Kamion> :)
[12:54] <Mithrandir> Kamion: already fixed.
[12:54] <Kamion> ok, thanks
[12:54] <Mithrandir> en_US.UTF-8 is what it'll default to now
[12:55] <Kamion> Mithrandir: is the locale stuff from gfxboot not working?
[12:55] <pitti> Mithrandir: on ppc: after yaboot, I see two (initramfs?) messages, then booting freezes
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[12:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: it's working, but you don't pass lang if you don't choose anything from the menu.
[12:55] <stockholm> where is mark?
[12:55] <pitti> Mithrandir: on amd64, boot complains about being unable to write a kernel modules .temp file, then it drops into a shell
[12:56] <Mithrandir> stockholm: not here?
[12:56] <stockholm> or rather: when is he here?
[12:56] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I can change that if you like ...
[12:56] <stockholm> Mithrandir: thanks. (c:
[12:56] <Mithrandir> stockholm: occasionally. :-)
[12:56] <Mithrandir> stockholm: it's usually easier to reach him by mail
[12:56] <Mithrandir> pitti: I don't have a ppc, so I'm afraid I can't really help debug that..
[12:56] <stockholm> Mithrandir: ok, will do
[12:56] <Mithrandir> pitti: hmm, how far has it gotten by then?
[12:57] <Kamion> pitti: how long did you wait on powerpc? it takes a while
[12:57] <pitti> Mithrandir: I'll do it again and do a photo screenshot
[12:57] <pitti> Kamion: I'll try it again
[12:57] <pitti> I tried both during breakfast and did not pay much attention
[12:57] <Mithrandir> pitti: thanks.
[12:58] <ogra> pitti, i have one machine here where it takes 20-30 min to boot the livecd (powerpc) but it boots ...
[12:58] <pitti> but I never saw just these two lines with such a long delay; usually usplash works fine
[12:58] <pitti> anyway, I'll try it again with screenshots
[12:58] <fabbione> there is a udev bug on ppc
[12:58] <fabbione> that makes the machine SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW to boot
[12:59] <Mithrandir> fabbione: so I can blame powerpc, then? :-)
[12:59] <fabbione> up to 3/4 minutes just to pass init-premount in initramfs
[12:59] <fabbione> Mithrandir: no.. blame udev :)
[12:59] <fabbione> i can't figure where the problem is
[12:59] <fabbione> or better.. i know the problem
[12:59] <fabbione> i dunno how to fix it
[12:59] <fabbione> and i was waiting Scott to appear tomorrow *grin*
=== pitti sees 'PCI: Cannot allocate resource region of device...' twice and waits
[01:00] <fabbione> pitti: that message is harmless
[01:00] <pitti> I know
[01:00] <pitti> I saw it everytime
[01:00] <pitti> but after that, I usually got usplash a couple of seconds later
[01:01] <Mithrandir> pitti: if you add "splash" to the boot line, you should see usplash
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[01:01] <pitti> Mithrandir: I shuold have it, unless it was automatically removed
[01:01] <Kamion> pitti: I only just added it this morning
[01:01] <pitti> anyway, I try amd64 now, brb
[01:01] <pitti> oh, ok
[01:04] <ogra> Kamion, happy new year ... i'd like an opinion to #20328 if you dont mind ... 
[01:04] <ogra> seems critical to ppc ltsp ...
[01:05] <Kamion> ogra: tomorrow, sorry
[01:05] <ogra> oki
[01:05] <ogra> its not urgent ...
[01:05] <Kamion> ogra: besides, you want infinity for an opinion on initramfs-tools, not me
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[01:06] <Kamion> ogra: TBH I'd prefer if you filed your issue as a separate bug, since it's really pretty disconnected
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[01:06] <mdke> Riddell, Kamion, ogra, was any progress made on that ubuntu-docs update?
[01:06] <ogra> Kamion, i was wondering if it couldnt be also used for the installer, since it loads the blockdevice drivers later anyway 
[01:07] <ogra> Kamion, but anyway ... tomorrow :)
[01:08] <Kamion> ogra: no
[01:08] <Kamion> initramfs-tools != installer, completely
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[01:11] <Mithrandir> Kamion: would you mind if I uploaded 0.04 of user-setup (at least to Ubuntu?)
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[01:11] <pitti> fabbione: ok, ppc boots after a couple of minutes of delay, so it seems that's the bug you saw
[01:15] <pitti> Mithrandir, Kamion: on amd64 it stops with busybox after:
[01:16] <pitti> WARNING: Could't open directory /lib/modules/2.6.15-9-amd64-generic: No such file or directory
[01:16] <pitti> FATAL: Could not open /lib/modules/2.6.15-9-amd64/generic/modules.tep.temp for writing: No such file or directory
[01:16] <pitti> no record for '/block/ram0' in database
[01:16] <pitti> [message repeats for ram1 to ram15 ] 
[01:16] <pitti> Kamion: might this be due to the kernel transition to 10?
[01:16] <Mithrandir> pitti: yes
[01:16] <Mithrandir> old kernel on the cd.
[01:17] <pitti> ok, that should sort out itself then, thanks
[01:17] <Mithrandir> yes, AIUI, it should
[01:19] <pitti> BenC: ping
[01:22] <BenC> pitti: pong
[01:22] <pitti> BenC: the current ppc live CD does not load snd_powermac automatically; is that known?
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[01:23] <BenC> that's a udev isue
[01:23] <pitti> BenC: ok, I'll file a bug
[01:24] <BenC> snd_powermac is one of those drivers that doesn't have hotplug, so it just needs to be always loaded (and is for installs)
[01:26] <pitti> I see
[01:26] <pitti> #21772
[01:32] <BenC> pitti: I got a powerpook 17" over christmas
[01:32] <pitti> shiny :)
[01:32] <fabbione> pitti: yes, it's the same i am sure
[01:33] <BenC> fabbione: did you see that bcm43xx is working now?
[01:33] <fabbione> BenC: yes, i read it, but didn't try it yet
[01:33] <BenC> I've been running it for several days with wep
[01:33] <fabbione> cool
[01:34] <fabbione> do i need a special fw or the one from MacOS is good?
[01:34] <BenC> I can put the firmware up for you somewhere
[01:34] <fabbione> BenC: i used the fw extractor something on the AirPort2 MacOS file...
[01:34] <BenC> the one for macosx is good, but the one on my system was too new for the fwcutter program to parse out
[01:34] <fabbione> ah ok
[01:34] <fabbione> well just mail it :) or put it somewhere
[01:34] <BenC> if the cutter worked, it will work
[01:34] <fabbione> ok
[01:35] <BenC> just mv *.fw /lib/firmware
[01:35] <BenC> and be sure to do "iwconfig eth1 rate 11M" before ifup
[01:35] <fabbione> yes i did that a while ago with the old driver
[01:35] <fabbione> ok
[01:35] <BenC> adding the wireless-rate to interfaces isn't enough
[01:36] <fabbione> you can do it in pre-up
[01:37] <BenC> yeah, that would probably work, but I haven't tried it
[01:37] <fabbione> the touchpad default is not sensible enough btw
[01:37] <fabbione> it takes 2/3 full movements to cross the screen
[01:40] <BenC> mine only takes 2
[01:40] <BenC> but up and down is a bit slow
[01:41] <fabbione> yeah
[01:41] <fabbione> hmm
[01:41] <fabbione> i guess i need the latest git to get the driver working
=== fabbione updates and builds
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[01:45] <jdub> whiprush: yeah. btw - remember to choose a category! :)
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[02:12] <slomo_> elmo: please sync pygame, meta-gnome2, gazpacho from debian/unstable, service-discovery-applet, gnome-user-share, ipod-sharp, libipoddevice from debian/experimental... ubuntu changes can be dropped
[02:15] <pitti> Kamion, Mithrandir: do you have a minute for a sudo patch review? It's for a 'special sabdfl feature request'
[02:16] <Mithrandir> pitti: sure
[02:16] <pitti> http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/patches/sudo.adminstamp.diff
[02:16] <pitti> the idea is that sudo creates a stamp file if it was executed successfully, and a future /etc/profile checks it and writes something like 'To execute commands as root, use 'sudo <command'
[02:16] <pitti> of course that should only happen for %admin
[02:17] <pitti> not for arbitrary sudoers (information disclosure)
[02:17] <sivang> pitti: nice
[02:17] <pitti> well, I don't really like it
[02:17] <sivang> pitti: well, it would make all those sad faces go when we tell them "no root in ubuntu"
[02:17] <pitti> but Mark doesn't like patching su to check whether root is enabled
[02:18] <pitti> right, that was the idea
[02:18] <fabbione> hmmmm
[02:18] <fabbione> pitti: why do you need to do all of these in sudo?
[02:19] <pitti> fabbione: how else do you want to check whether the user successfully called sudo?
[02:19] <pitti> patch all of our shells?
[02:19] <Mithrandir> pitti: the patch is good enough.  I think the idea is wrong, though.
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[02:19] <fabbione> +  * sudo.c: If the user successfully authenticated and he is in the 'admin'
[02:19] <fabbione> +    group, then create a stamp ~/.sudo_as_admin_successful. A future
[02:19] <fabbione> +    /etc/bashrc will evaluate this flag to display a short help about how to
[02:19] <fabbione> +    execute things as root.
[02:19] <zul> gday
[02:19] <fabbione> pitti: once you need a new bashrc
[02:19] <pitti> hi zul 
[02:19] <fabbione> you need to patch all the shells anyway
[02:19] <pitti> fabbione: we need a new /etc/profile
[02:20] <fabbione> hi zul
[02:20] <zul> hey fabbione, pitti
=== fabbione ponders..
[02:20] <pitti> Mithrandir: wrong idea> I agree, but hey, Mark pays my lunch :/
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[02:20] <pitti> well, it's not totally wrong
[02:20] <pitti> but I don't like the exposure of a stamp file
[02:20] <pitti> it would again mean an information disclosure on corner-case configurations
[02:20] <Mithrandir> pitti: I think having magic flag files like that is wrong and not something we would want at all.
[02:20] <segfault> will it be used to check if the admin menus in gnome will be shown?
[02:20] <jdub> pitti: what's bad about patching su?
[02:20] <sivang> pitti: someone might try to fake one 
[02:21] <Mithrandir> pitti: there's no way on earth it'll ever go upstream.
[02:21] <pitti> jdub: no idea, mdz told me that Mark doesn't like it
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[02:21] <pitti> sivang: that's not too scary
[02:21] <fabbione> i don't like the idea
[02:21] <pitti> Mithrandir: right, it's not supposed to; it's an ubuntu specific special case hack
[02:21] <fabbione> what do we gain?
[02:21] <fabbione> a message?
[02:21] <pitti> yes
=== fabbione sighs
[02:22] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's wrong because of shared homedirs, for instance.
[02:22] <sivang> maybe we can trade this to some "welcome to Ubuntu" dialog and note highlights like "no root user" there...
[02:22] <fabbione> pitti: make sudo a shell wrapper :)
[02:22] <pitti> fabbione: heh :)
[02:22] <jdub> pitti: isn't a message like that of most benefit when trying to run su? how is it useful documentation in sudo (which the user doesn't know to use yet)?
[02:22] <pitti> fabbione: well, we could make it an alias in /etc/profile
[02:22] <fabbione> pitti: it would be safer and nicer probably )
[02:22] <pitti> jdub: the message won't come from sudo
[02:23] <tseng> jdub: its not documented in sudo, its on the shell
[02:23] <Mithrandir> is there any reason why bashrc can't just echo the message if you're in the admin group?
[02:23] <pitti> jdub: it comes from /etc/profile if the user opens a shell
[02:23] <jdub> whoa
[02:23] <sivang> Mithrandir: I thought about that, but didn't dare to say :)
[02:23] <pitti> Mithrandir: Mark wants the message to go away if the user ran sudo successfully
[02:23] <sivang> eh
[02:23] <sivang> :)
[02:23] <jdub> what, like, open a shell and get a message every time until you use sudo?
[02:23] <jdub> oof
[02:23] <Pygi> huh :/
=== Mithrandir shakes his head.
[02:24] <fabbione> EH?
[02:24] <fabbione> that's nuts
[02:24] <jdub> it's so not worth it to be doing this kind of ugly hackery for shell use cases
[02:24] <pitti> jdub: my favourite solution would be to patch su to check whether root has a password
[02:25] <pitti> and print a meaningful message that points to sudo
[02:25] <Mithrandir> pitti: that's slightly less crackful, at least.
[02:25] <pitti> no idea why mark doesn't like it
[02:25] <jdub> yeah, that's the most helpful and close-to-home way of doing it
[02:25] <Mithrandir> pitti: we can do it with a pam module.
[02:25] <jdub> pitti: perhaps that question needs to be asked :)
[02:25] <Mithrandir> pam-su-pointtosudo
[02:25] <sivang> jdub: what do you think about the "short introduction dialog" or better yet, we could mention those on the web page the opens after first install?
[02:25] <jdub> Mithrandir: heh. that would be nice.
[02:25] <Mithrandir> seriously, we could.  No patching.
[02:25] <segfault> why not create something under /var/run/sudo/user?
[02:25] <jdub> sivang: first-run intro thingies suck.
[02:25] <sivang> jdub: ok :)
[02:26] <pitti> segfault: /var/run might be on a tmpfs
[02:26] <segfault> hum, right
[02:26] <fabbione> pitti: /home can be on NFS
[02:26] <pitti> fabbione: so what?
[02:26] <fabbione> so basically only the first time ever i will see that message
[02:26] <Mithrandir> pitti: /var/lib/sudo, then.  But seriously, can you ask him what he thinks of a pam module for su?
[02:26] <fabbione> or is that supposed to be per host base?
[02:26] <pitti> fabbione: isn't that a feature?
[02:27] <fabbione> pitti: it depends how you want to see it
[02:27] <pitti> fabbione: once $USER knows how to run sudo, he doesn't need the lecture on other hosts
[02:27] <fabbione> in theory
[02:27] <pitti> Mithrandir: once he's back online, sure
[02:28] <pitti> Mithrandir: if pam can be hooked into su, can it be hooked into sudo?
=== pitti has little clue about pam
[02:28] <Mithrandir> pitti: yes and yes.
[02:29] <Mithrandir> pitti: basically, what we'd do is the "if root account is not enabled and user runs su, tell user about sudo".  (Possibly with the "if user is in admin group too")
[02:29] <Pygi> pitti: you can read something about PAM here if you want...http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/libs/pam/
[02:29] <segfault> or maybe here: http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=04/02/07/1857219
[02:30] <Pygi> doesn't enabling root breaks some things in ubuntu? maybe also suggest the use of "gksudo" and/or "kdesu"
[02:30] <pitti> Pygi: thanks
[02:30] <Mithrandir> pitti: a problem with the flag file approach is, what if the user forgets the name of sudo and finds docs about "su", which then doesn't work.
[02:30] <Pygi> pitti: np
[02:31] <Pygi> Mithrandir: huh, forget the name of "sudo" :/ That is higly unlikely to happen, but it is possible tho :/
[02:33] <Mithrandir> Pygi: why is that unlikely?  If the user only followed a howto, then didn't use the terminal for a month (just gui admin tools, which uses gksudo), he wouldn't get a message and it's quite likely the user would be confused.
[02:33] <Pygi> hm, yes, but people use sudo rather then "gksudo" or "kdesu"... some never heard of those commands, but use sudo for any task, even when they don't need it...
=== pitti ponders about inviting sabdfl to a TB meeting
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[02:35] <pitti> Mithrandir: do you have any hard argument against the approach other than our gut feeling?
=== sivang also reads the PAM documentation. yummy.
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[02:37] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's confusing, why would a message go away just because the user ran sudo once?  It feels so much like a hack.
[02:37] <Pygi> sivang: hehe :)
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[02:37] <Mithrandir> pitti: I would like some rationale for the change, since I believe it's the wrong place to do it.
[02:37] <Pygi> Mithrandir: huh, actually, why would you need message every time? it will become irritating :/
[02:38] <Mithrandir> Pygi: every time you run su without having an enabled root account?
[02:38] <Mithrandir> Pygi: it shouldn't tell the user about sudo unless the user tries to do something which requires the user to use it, like, run su - root
[02:38] <segfault> so, we should hide /etc/motd (if not changed) every time a user logs in
[02:39] <Mithrandir> segfault: you shouldn't see /etc/motd in all your terminals, no.
[02:39] <pitti> also, only admins should see that text
[02:40] <Mithrandir> do it when the user tries to do something he can't, not at an unrelated place.
[02:40] <Mithrandir> there's little chance the user will remember it at that time anyway.
[02:44] <jdub> Mithrandir: aye!
[02:46] <Mithrandir> pitti: else, you could do it in d-i and assumed the admin would still remember it at the end of the install when he first fired up a terminal..
[02:46] <Mithrandir> ;-)
[02:46] <pitti> Mithrandir: hm, that doesn't help the other admins
[02:46] <pitti> Mithrandir: I almost feel the necessity to discuss this in TB
=== Pygi agrees with pitti
[02:47] <Mithrandir> pitti: it wasn't a serious suggestion, it was just drawing the "notify the admin at unrelated point in time" to an extreme.
[02:47] <Mithrandir> sure, TB would work.
[02:47] <Pygi> pitti: when is that TB and can only member's join?
[02:48] <dholbach> Pygi: the meeting is public, so anybody can join
[02:48] <sivang> Pygi: everybody can watch, only TB makes decision. everybody can give feedback I think
[02:48] <pitti> Pygi: it's open to anybody as long as the audience sticks to the schedule
[02:48] <Pygi> huh, 3 answers :) k, then please inform me when TB is
[02:49] <Mithrandir> it doesn't say on the fridge, at least.
[02:49] <Pygi> I should try to become member also :P
[02:49] <sivang> Pygi: you mean, an Ubuntu member?
[02:50] <pitti> jdub: btw, the fridge's calendar has a wrong time for Thursday's distro meeting
[02:50] <Mithrandir> in those meetings, people are generally listened to if they have sensible things to say, not on whether they are non-members, members or other values.
[02:50] <pitti> jdub: it'll be at 0200, not at 2000
[02:50] <Pygi> sivang: yesh, yesh, ubuntu member :)
[02:50] <jdub> pitti: ok, can fix
[02:50] <pitti> jdub: thanks
[02:50] <Mithrandir> pitti: ugh, yet another middle-of-the-night meeting?
[02:50] <Mithrandir> didn't we just have one?
[02:51] <pitti> Mithrandir: I feel like it :/
[02:51] <pitti> I would have liked 2000 much more
[02:51] <Pygi> sivang: it's about time to become a member :)
[02:51] <jdub> pitti: 0200 UTC on the fifth, right?
[02:51] <sivang> Pygi: go for it :)
[02:52] <pitti> jdub: yep
[02:52] <Mithrandir> pitti: you shouldn't have told jdub, then. :-)
=== Pygi thinks I need to find few people who will vote for him.... :)
[02:52] <pitti> Mithrandir: JaneW already told us
[02:52] <Mithrandir> pitti: she did?  Where?
[02:52] <pitti> Mithrandir: there was an annoucement email
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[02:53] <pitti> Mithrandir: hmm, I'm sure that I read a mail, lemme dig it out
[02:55] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I'll upload user-setup 0.04 to Debian and merge to Ubuntu; that's substantially less confusing :)
[02:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: great, thanks.
[02:55] <pitti> Mithrandir: ah, it was in '23.12.05 09:42 Jane Weideman     Dapper Development Status 22 Dec 2005'
[02:56] <Pygi> Kamion: how's the Ubuntu Express thingy goin'?
[03:00] <Kamion> Pygi: it's going
[03:00] <Pygi> k, good :) 
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[03:08] <Pygi> Kamion: need any help ? :)
[03:08] <mdke> Kamion, ogra, Riddell, no reply on the ubuntu-docs breezy update?
[03:08] <Kamion> Pygi: at the moment, I think too many cooks still spoil the broth, but thans
[03:08] <Kamion> thanks
[03:08] <Pygi> hoh, k
[03:09] <Kamion> mdke: no idea, sorry
[03:09] <mdke> Kamion, ok, thanks
[03:09] <Riddell> mdke: that was still infinity doing that
[03:10] <mdke> oh rly
[03:10] <mdke> Riddell, thanks
[03:10] <Riddell> and he's just realised he has a holiday today and tomorrow
[03:10] <mdke> right
[03:10] <mdke> maybe I should open a bug on edubuntu-docs or something, to keep track
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[03:13] <mdke> oh, there is no such package
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[03:15] <mdke> ogra, was it edubuntu-artwork that is stopping us from uploading the ubuntu-docs update? I'm just gonna file a bug so I can keep track of any developments
[03:16] <ogra> mdke, it was that all three of them need the aletrnatves patch 
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[03:17] <ogra> mdke, the patch to edubuntu artwork is a trivial two line change, identical with the kubuntu one, i was waiting for inifinity to give his "go" on the patch ...
[03:18] <mdke> ok, i'll file the bug and cc him
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[03:18] <ogra> great
[03:21] <mdke> ogra, #21773, thanks
[03:21] <ogra> thanks as well :)
[03:21] <mdke> infinity is adconrad yeah?
[03:21] <Kamion> mdke: yes
[03:22] <mdke> cool
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[03:32] <HiddenWolf> ehm, seb128 ?
[03:32] <seb128> HiddenWolf: pong
[03:33] <HiddenWolf> seb128, gnome-system-monitor has a curious changelog. It says -gksu-support (ok it's broken) ;) 
[03:33] <HiddenWolf> seb128, but you drop the libgksu.patch
[03:34] <seb128> HiddenWolf: right, upstream use gksu, why should we keep the patch? :)
[03:34] <slomo_> lamont: please give-back njb-sharp on amd64 and ia64, thanks :)
[03:35] <seb128> the patch was to use gksu because upstream used gnomesu before
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[03:35] <HiddenWolf> Hm.
[03:35] <HiddenWolf> I read that as "we have a working patch, but dropping for upstreams' broken code"
[03:36] <seb128> no, that's "the patch is used by upstream but upstream doesn't consider it perfect"
[03:36] <HiddenWolf> ok, ok. :)
=== mvo reboots 
[03:42] <HiddenWolf> seb128, oh, and cheers for the rhythmbox package. :)
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[03:43] <mdz> pitti: the issue with patching su is that users give up before they even try, because they realize that they didn't set a password
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[03:48] <Mithrandir> mdz: what do you think of moving to squashfs for the live cd?
[03:49] <pitti> mdz: hi
[03:49] <pitti> mdz: that's an argument, yes
[03:51] <zyga> pitti: hi, were the desktop patches uploaded to dapper?
[03:51] <pitti> zyga: yes, maybe a month ago
[03:51] <zyga> k, thanks
[03:52] <mdz> pitti: replied to your email
[03:52] <mdz> Mithrandir: if unionfs works well, then I think we should try it
[03:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: there's an oops when booting, but it _seems_ to work fine for me, and it gives us really large savings.  PPC is very buggy with unionfs, though.
[03:55] <mdz> Mithrandir: a unionfs oops or a squashfs oops?
[03:55] <Mithrandir> mdz: unionfs oops
[03:55] <Mithrandir> mdz: I see it with cloop as well as squashfs.
[03:56] <mdz> Mithrandir: either send it to the unionfs list, or talk to carstenh, he has helped debug such problems in the past
[03:56] <Mithrandir> carstenh@ ?
[03:56] <mdz> @#ubuntu-devel
[03:56] <Mithrandir> ah :-)
[03:56] <Mithrandir> carstenh: hiya, around?
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[03:57] <Mithrandir> carstenh: any chance you could help out with finding out why unionfs oopses on the live cd?  You should see it on x86/amd64 by just booting the live cd.
[03:58] <mdz> Mithrandir: so long as we stay with ext2+cloop, we can trivially use either of unionfs or dm, right?
[03:58] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes.
[03:58] <mdz> my only hesitation with squashfs is that we have to commit to unionfs
[03:58] <Mithrandir> mdz: casper also autodetects squash or cloop automatically.
[03:59] <Mithrandir> correct.
[03:59] <Mithrandir> though, it comes with a fairly nice space saving, as you probably saw?
[03:59] <Mithrandir> as well as being awesomely much faster.
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[04:00] <carstenh> Mithrandir: mdz: ENICK?
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[04:02] <Mithrandir> carstenh: possibly, if you don't know anything about unionfs stuff, ENICK, certainly. :-)
[04:02] <ogra> i think s/carstenh/CarlFK
[04:03] <ogra> (not 100% certain though)
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[04:06] <carstenh> hmm, shut down the wrong box... :/ but I got the answer to "ENICK?"
[04:08] <janimo> carstenh, are you working on the firewal spec?
[04:08] <lamont> yelp is ftbfs (bad depends)
[04:09] <carstenh> janimo: yes. i promised to be finished end of this week :)
[04:10] <mdz> Mithrandir,carstenh: sorry, confused
[04:10] <mdz> Mithrandir: it was shaya potter I was thinking of
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[04:27] <dholbach> mdke: i did an ubuntu-docs update to dapper, just fyi
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=== lamont files a few bugs
[04:33] <zul> yay!
[04:47] <jdub> BenC: ping
[04:48] <BenC> jdub: pong
[04:48] <jdub> BenC: have you received any bug reports about nfs issues with the latest kernels?
[04:48] <BenC> no
[04:48] <fabbione> jdub: what kind of issues?
[04:49] <BenC> just one nfs-root with bridging ethernet problem
[04:49] <jdub> fabbione: appears to be file open hangs
[04:49] <BenC> v3 or v4?
[04:49] <fabbione> jdub: ?
[04:49] <jdub> fabbione: totally screws gnome on my desktop (which has /home on nfs)
[04:49] <jdub> BenC: v3
[04:49] <fabbione> jdub: works here.. /home on NFS
[04:50] <fabbione> jdub: are you running dapper on server or client?
[04:50] <jdub> fabbione: ok, ta
[04:50] <jdub> fabbione: dapper on client, breezy on server
[04:50] <ogra> i still see timeouts of the nfs server on fresh rebooted systems with ltsp
[04:50] <fabbione> jdub: same here.. breezy server/dapper client.
[04:51] <Kamion> Mithrandir: ok, user-setup 0.04ubuntu1 uploaded
[04:51] <jdub> hrm
[04:51] <stratus> ogra, after restarting nfs server the thin clients works well?
[04:52] <jdub> are there still weird interactions between the nvidia drivers and the i686 tls bits?
[04:52] <ogra> stratus, after rebooting the first client
[04:52] <stratus> ogra, i think it's a old weird bug, maybe claviola has more details than me
[04:52] <jbailey> jdub: AFAIK there hasn't been for 7 or 8 months.
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[04:52] <ogra> stratus, the second boot attempt is always successfull
[04:52] <stratus> ogra, i work with him on that cdd, i guess he talked with you already.
[04:52] <ogra> yup
[04:52] <ogra> i'll ask him ...
[04:52] <stratus> ogra, yes, i think it's nothing new but enough random to trace atm.
[04:53] <stratus> the point is that has nothing to do with a new kernel
[04:53] <ogra> stratus, i'll focus heavily on this stuff post feature freezy if i'm not allowed to develop new suff ;) 
[04:54] <stratus> ogra, sounds great we were in a short vacation but we will work hard until april when we plan to release the second version of that cdd.
[04:54] <ogra> sounds good and as if we could throw our ressources together then :)
[04:55] <stratus> ogra, ltsp is of course on top of our priority list with the device stuff and fuse for $HOME
[04:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: 'k, thanks. :-)
[04:55] <stratus> ogra, of course we can, i think that claviola already branched from your or pere's tree and he'll be publishing his tree online.
[04:55] <ogra> oh, has pere his bzr ready finally ?
[04:56] <stratus> it's up to you merge the stuff you want and discuss with us about that stuff
[04:56] <stratus> ogra, i dunno
[04:56] <mjg59> When's Scott back?
[04:56] <stratus> ogra, i just uploaded bzrtools to debian, wasn't pere just a baz2bzr from that?
[04:56] <ogra> the sad thing for me with peres patches is that 90% of them dont work at all in ubuntu
[04:57] <stratus> ogra, oh
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[04:58] <stratus> ogra, do you know what's up with the "unknown" return from video detect stuff? We applied a patch into pere' package to use vesa in these corner cases.
[04:58] <stratus> ogra, there were two or three more that should be merged back into Debian and probably Ubuntu too.
[04:58] <ogra> our X doesnt accept a lot of values he sets i.e. X_MODE or the serial mouse stuff as well as most of the other X setting patches
[04:58] <stratus> ogra, we of course need a better solution for serial mouse, imho.
[04:59] <ogra> stratus, claviola didnt give me a bzr source yet ...
[04:59] <stratus> ogra, i'm unsure about the rest but i'll take a look at.
[04:59] <jdub> seb128: at 1920x1200, i still get visible rendering of the gdm background
[04:59] <stratus> ogra, he will do it soon, we've already a svn repo but we were in a short vacation (two weeks) due to holidays. I worked only on Debian specific stuff.
[05:00] <ogra> thats fine ... i'd just like to know about it if something is there to merge :)
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[05:00] <ogra> i was lazy as well the last weeks, only finished the powerpc ltsp implementation :)
[05:00] <stratus> ogra, i asked claviola to see if pere agree in setup a project at alioth to share the workload with ltsp co-maintainers.
[05:01] <stratus> ppc, cool. Is there any ppc thin client or you're talking about the server side ?
[05:01] <ogra> hmm, would be a good reason to finally apply for DD :)
[05:01] <ogra> both
[05:01] <stratus> great
[05:02] <ogra> i'm having a ppc<->ppc setup running fine here and a ppc-server<-> x86 client
[05:02] <stratus> yes, but i don't talk with pere and you (usually), i've a lot of things to do, but since it's my first day back i'm trying to do some of the claviola' work for him
[05:02] <stratus> he's busy right now fighting against his desktop
[05:02] <ogra> but you have to bootstarp the chroot via a rw nfs mounted share
[05:03] <stratus> Is it a ppc thin client or you're using a full ppc machine?
[05:03] <ogra> both
[05:03] <stratus> oh, i see.
[05:03] <ogra> i have an ibook as server and a old grey g4 as client
[05:03] <stratus> we don't have so cool gadgets here. :(
[05:03] <jdub> BenC: i seem to be getting hangs in lockf/fcntl (at least that's what backtraces seem to indicate)
[05:04] <jdub> fabbione: ^
[05:04] <stratus> ogra, interesting setup.
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[05:04] <ogra> stratus, i'm not allowed to install on the g4 :)
[05:04] <stratus> ogra, if someday you show up in Brazil, let me know. I'll show you what we're doing with these things here.
[05:04] <jdub> on the hung processes, i always have
[05:04] <fabbione> jdub: nothing like that... 
[05:04] <ogra> else it'd be the other way around
[05:04] <jdub> #0 __kernel_vsyscall
[05:04] <ogra> stratus, i'd sooo love to :)
[05:05] <jdub> #1 fcntl 
[05:05] <jdub> #2 lockf
[05:06] <fabbione> jdub: are you running lockd on the server?
[05:06] <Riddell> lamont: where is that qt buildkey error from?
=== Kamion watches pkgsel Just Work
[05:06] <Kamion> this makes me very happy
[05:06] <stratus> ogra, there are many projects but two really cool, and one of them we're managing right now. There's even 'roaming authentication' between what we call telecentres ('kiosks'), more than 15000 users in just 6 or 7. We will reach 50 in a year and more 90 in two or three.
[05:06] <jdub> fabbione: yeah - i'll restat those and see what happens
[05:06] <BenC> jdub: is the server userspace or kernel?
[05:06] <jdub> BenC: kernel
[05:07] <BenC> jdub: on the server, where is lockd? is it hung?
[05:07] <lamont> Riddell: that's the most recent attempt to build kdeedu on hppa
[05:07] <stratus> ogra, these telecentres are installed in poor comunities where they are inserted into technology, internet and free software (of course).
[05:07] <ogra> stratus, wow, impressive numbers
[05:07] <BenC> cat /proc/<pid>/wchan
[05:07] <lamont> http://buildd.mmjgroup.com/buildLogs/k/kdeedu/
[05:08] <jdub> BenC: _stext
[05:08] <stratus> ogra, yes we worked in a project that reached 500.000 users in Sao Paulo, the bigger city in Brazil. Unfortunately the project isn't going so well at this moment, but in the great days there were a lot of poor guys that turned out to be programmers and not only soccer players. =)
[05:08] <jdub> ha ha
[05:08] <Riddell> lamont: I don't see it in the latest failed build, it's an error on ../../../kig/modes/../objects/../misc/object_hierarchy.h
[05:09] <ogra> stratus, cool ... 
[05:09] <lamont> hrm.
[05:09] <jdub> stratus: i am looking forward to visiting brazil for fisl, if i get to go :-)
[05:09] <jdub> BenC: that's after a restart
[05:09] <stratus> ogra, yes really cool that's the reason behind my and claviola' work on ltsp and all that.
[05:10] <jdub> BenC: (of nfs-kernel-server and nfs-common)
[05:10] <stratus> jdub, we plan to release the second version of our CDD there, i look forward to see you there.
[05:10] <lamont> buildLogs/k/kdeedu/4:3.5.0-0ubuntu1/kdeedu_4:3.5.0-0ubuntu1_20060102-0312-hppa-failed.gz
[05:10] <lamont> Riddell: http://buildd.mmjgroup.com/buildLogs/k/kdeedu/4:3.5.0-0ubuntu1/kdeedu_4:3.5.0-0ubuntu1_20060102-0312-hppa-failed.gz
[05:10] <jdub> BenC: whoa - suddenly after restarting that, all the hung processes were happy
[05:12] <stratus> ogra, we have a distributed authentication scheme with pgsql to run the 'roaming auth' stuff, i think mark' saw the prerelease of the php frontend running on a telecentre in Sao Paulo, maybe in the middle of the last year.
[05:12] <ogra> sounds cool, why did you choose php `
[05:12] <ogra> ?
[05:12] <stratus> ogra, it isn't localized yet, but the source code is available through our svn. I plan to package it for Debian in April.
[05:12] <ogra> great, i'll have a look for edubuntu ...
[05:13] <jdub> BenC: hrm, i'll keep watching this...
[05:13] <stratus> just because we have a php dev team, and it works well
[05:13] <stratus> the pgsql was needed because mysql 4 wasn't enough
[05:13] <ogra> BenC, the broadcom driver works flawless for you ? as in *totally* flawless without system lockups ? 
[05:14] <stratus> ogra, i think it will be useful for edubuntu, at this time it just works but in April we will have more interesting features like "user X can or can't print".
[05:14] <stratus> ogra, i'm working in two PAM modules to ship together with the CDD, one of them is already on the first version.
[05:14] <ogra> stratus, yup, pgsql is the way to go ... but i'd rather see a python based frontend ... the security update frequency for php stuff is just to high
[05:15] <stratus> ogra, the first does the authentication stuff using pgsql as backend but is smart enough to do roaming (the pam-pgsql isn't), the second one will create/remove users into the server as needed or just link the $HOME from a remote server.
[05:15] <stratus> We're planning to avoid nfs and use "some"fs over fuse
[05:16] <stratus> It'll bring us into the "profile roaming" business early or late. But we're not dreaming with it for April, but November.
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[05:18] <janimo> elmo, please sync/override xfce4-terminal from sid. thank you
[05:21] <stratus> ogra, i don't see a python frontend as a impossible thing, maybe write a product for zope to consult the current database will be trivial.
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[05:21] <ogra> stratus, that'd be cool ... (at least for edubuntu, where we already have schooltool)
[05:22] <bmonty> lamont: ping
[05:23] <stratus> ogra, good we are a step or two from more funding to prepare a larger lab here to install everything related with the subject. e.g: We don't have a edubuntu setup around,
[05:23] <lamont> bmonty: si?
=== lamont has about 2 minutes before he must run
[05:24] <seb128> jdub: dapper? since today?
[05:24] <bmonty> lamont: can you please check if grass is in depwait and clear it if it is?
=== lamont notes that http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/Lists/dapper.all.$ARCH is a good place to check that... and checks
[05:24] <jdub> seb128: hadn't tried earlier on my desktop
[05:24] <jdub> seb128: first time i've used it for a long while :)
[05:25] <seb128> jdub: what libgnomecanvas2-0 version do you have?
[05:25] <jdub> seb128: but yeah, fully up-to-date dapper
[05:25] <jdub> sec
[05:25] <lamont> bmonty: and kicked.
[05:25] <lamont> back later
[05:25] <bmonty> lamont: thanks
[05:26] <jdub> seb128: 2.13.0-0ubuntu1
[05:26] <jdub> seb128: using nvidia prop drivers
[05:26] <seb128> jdub: could you try with the previous deb?
[05:27] <seb128> they changed the interpolation method again, to know if that makes a difference
[05:27] <jdub> hrm, ok
[05:27] <seb128> this version of libgnomecanvas is from today
[05:27] <jdub> is there one on a server somewhere
[05:27] <jdub> ?
[05:30] <seb128> jdub: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/libg/libgnomecanvas/
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[05:49] <janimo> anybody besides elmo who can activate a key in the main uploader ring?
[05:49] <Kamion> janimo: just elmo
[05:51] <BenC> ogra: I haven't had any lockups since I started using it
[05:53] <mdz> BenC: I get hard hangs with 2.6.15-10 on my desktop
[05:53] <mdz> during the boot process, not always at the same spot either
[05:54] <slomo_> lamont: please remove gnunet from dep-wait... the version i uploaded 5 minute ago builds fine now... thanks :)  (and please take a look again at njb-sharp... the same error happenend again and it needs imho again a give-back)
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[06:04] <ogra_ibook> BenC, for me it hardlocks from time to time, also the signal drops if i'm more than 10m away from the AP
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[06:05] <slomo_> hm, do we only get automatic syncs from debian/unstable or also from debian/experimental when the package in question was synced from experimental before?
[06:05] <seb128> no
[06:05] <seb128> no autosync from experimental
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[06:36] <BenC> ogra: I'm not running an SMP kernel, so that may be part of it
[06:37] <ogra_ibook> me neither ...
[06:37] <ogra_ibook> at least not that i'm aware of ...
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[06:48] <janimo> is it possible that two hours pass between a build being successful as shown in lamont/buildlogs and showing up in archive.u.c/pool ?
[06:48] <janimo> or even more time?
[06:48] <Kamion> janimo: it could easily be in NEW, for example
[06:48] <Kamion> janimo: what package?
[06:48] <janimo> it's not
[06:48] <janimo> exo
[06:48] <Kamion> janimo: is too
[06:48] <janimo> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/e/exo/0.3.1.1svn+r18845-0ubuntu2/
[06:48] <janimo> a NEW binaries
[06:48] <Kamion> NEW
[06:48] <Kamion> ---
[06:48] <janimo> aha
[06:49] <Kamion> exo           | 0.3.1.1svn+r18845-0ubuntu2 | amd64 i386 ia64 powerpc | 1 hour old
[06:49] <janimo> the source is the same, but new binaries
[06:49] <Kamion> needs manual processing due to new binaries
[06:49] <janimo> forgot that
[06:49] <janimo> I did not get mail about it being in NEW as usual
[06:49] <janimo> thanks
[06:49] <Kamion> no, you don't when it's new binaries
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[06:50] <Kamion> because the Maintainer: listed in the .changes file is the buildd in that case
[06:50] <Kamion> so the new ack mail goes to the buildd admin
[06:50] <janimo> and at that point it can no longer figure out the uploade and send a mail?
[06:51] <Kamion> by design, mail only goes to the Maintainer of the .changes
[06:52] <janimo> ok, will remember fro next time
[06:52] <Kamion> once we switch to launchpad, the status should be visible on a web page somewhere, I guess
[06:52] <Kamion> it's not worth fiddling with now
[06:52] <janimo> will that happen before dapper?
[06:53] <Kamion> it was supposed to happen at the start of dapper, but got delayed because it didn't quite work yet. I don't know.
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[07:06] <michael_> is there an archive of this channel?
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[07:07] <pitti> elmo: can you please sync tetex-bin?
[07:08] <ogra_ibook> michael_, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[07:08] <michael_> thanks
[07:12] <ryanpg> is there a page on the wiki describing the sync process? i.e. how a source upload gets built, by who and what schedule?
[07:12] <ogra_ibook> yes
[07:13] <ryanpg> ogra_ibook, hrm... guess I've not found the correct search terms yet ;)
[07:14] <ogra_ibook> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildDaemons
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[07:15] <ryanpg> thanks ogra_ibook https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources explains a bit too
[07:16] <ogra_ibook> yup
[07:16] <bmonty> ryanpg: also check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUToMerge
[07:16] <ogra_ibook> note that only devs can actually ask for syncs ...
[07:19] <mdke> dholbach, cool, thanks
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[07:29] <mdke> elmo, Znarl, website is down (in case no one has poked you yet)
[07:30] <mdke> argh, now it loads
[07:31] <sivang> mdke: I thought it was as well a couple of minutes ago, but after some waiting it wen back up
[07:33] <mdke> yah
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[07:36] <jordi> hey
[07:36] <jordi> ogra_ibook: ping
[07:36] <ogra_ibook> jordi, pong
[07:38] <jordi> ogra_ibook: do you know when Flight 3 is due, more or less?
[07:38] <ogra_ibook> nope
[07:39] <ogra_ibook> but it should happen before UVF 
[07:39] <ogra_ibook> or around this date
[07:39] <jordi> ogra_ibook: the Catalan GNOME team is interested in having easy to get Live CDs to test the Catalan translation of G 2.13
[07:39] <jordi> so in like 1/2 weeks
[07:39] <ogra_ibook> sounds reasonable... but dont quote me on it :)
[07:39] <jordi> k :)
[07:40] <mez_> ogra_ibook, i noticed you didnt sign my key - did you lose the fingerprint ?
[07:40] <jordi> Kamion: what languages are included in the live cd?
[07:40] <ogra_ibook> mez_, nope, its on the stack with the other signs i still have to make... sorry
[07:40] <mez_> lol - fair enough :D np - lol
[07:41] <mez_> just looking at my key stats and noticed a couple of ppl hadnt signed :D thought it mighta been due to lost fingerprints :D
[07:41] <mez_> I know i lost one :D
[07:41] <ogra_ibook> elmo, please sync libgtk-trayicon-ruby from unstable, override ok ...
[07:41] <mez_> which is why i did all of them as soon as i got the fingerprint after that
[07:42] <mez_> elmo, please sync python-feedparser from unstable - no ubuntu package (needed for newly synced version of ipodder)
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[07:45] <Kamion> jordi: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/live
[07:48] <jordi> Kamion: thanks
[07:48] <jordi> coolio
[07:48] <jordi> so we can use flight cds to test our translation
[07:48] <Robot101> how likely is installing this stuff from dapper on a breezy system to break stuff:
[07:48] <Robot101>   cpp-4.0 g++-4.0 gcc-4.0 gcc-4.0-base gij-4.0 libfribidi0 libgcc1 libgcj6
[07:48] <Robot101>   libstdc++6 libstdc++6-4.0-dev
[07:48] <Robot101> :)
[07:49] <pvanhoof> E: Package notify-daemon has no installation candidate
[07:49] <jordi> Kamion: hmm, that means only on ppc?
[07:49] <Kamion> jordi: right, at present
[07:49] <pvanhoof> And is fglrx going to get really fixed soon? (dapper)_
[07:49] <Kamion> jordi: check with pitti when he's going to upload language packs, too
[07:49] <jordi> nod
[07:49] <ogra_ibook> pvanhoof, ask ati ...
[07:49] <Kilohertz> 30-50
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[07:50] <Kilohertz> opz :>
[07:50] <pvanhoof> ogra_ibook, is there a problem with ati?
[07:50] <ogra_ibook> pvanhoof, no fglrx for X7 yet
[07:50] <ogra_ibook> afaik
[07:50] <pvanhoof> aha, ic
[07:51] <pvanhoof> also, my mouse cursor isn't the Human one anymore .. 
[07:51] <elmo> wiki is going down for 3-4 minutes
[07:51] <ogra_ibook> here neither ... just select it in the cursor preferences until its fixed
=== Kamion tries to decide how to adapt oem-config for the base-config removal
[07:52] <pvanhoof> ah, okay
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[08:05] <sivang> does anybody recall what command should I give bzr if I Want o publish a bracnh to a remote location?
[08:05] <sivang> (e.g. , that's the first time I publish it there, so 'pull' gives me "no branch" error)
[08:05] <sivang> s/pull/push/
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[08:13] <Kamion> pitti: uploaded langpack-locales including validlocale, FYI
[08:13] <Kamion> needed for killing base-config
[08:16] <sivang> coudl someone take a look at http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21525 ? any idea why I get "stack empty" when gdb'ing on it?
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[08:18] <mdke> sivang, is the backtrace on bug #21617 not good enough?
[08:20] <sivang> mdke: ah, it's seem goodenough. I just wondered why I can't get a bt as well
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[08:22] <sivang> mdke: although something is missing there, I think
[08:22] <mdke> sivang, not sure I'm afraid. The other bug is a backtrace on locate I think
[08:23] <sivang> mdke: yes , well maybe I am doing something wrong
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[08:27] <sivang> mdke: it seems to not segfault when I run it under gdb, so maybe this is a libc problem. weird
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[08:48] <zyga> sivang: it does crash under gdb for me
[08:51] <zyga> sivang: more less got the cause
[08:54] <zyga> bah, what a mess
[08:54] <zyga> whoever wrote that should ... no not die
[08:57] <sivang> zyga: how are you able to reproduce the crash under gdb?
[08:58] <zyga> sivang: sudo -s ... then continue as normal
[08:58] <zyga> sivang: the problem is that search_db gets mess instead of search_str (the third arg)
[08:59] <zyga> the mess comes from command parser
[08:59] <zyga> I'll investigate the source
[08:59] <sivang> zyga: why sudo -s ? slocate should be easy to execute without it no?
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[09:00] <zyga> I don't know really ;-)
[09:00] <zyga> it does some checks on real and effective id's
[09:00] <zyga> so I guess that might be the cause
[09:01] <mdz> Kamion: gfxboot is looking pretty good; just tested the daily amd64 live
[09:01] <mdz> casper ends up with a locale of aa_DJ or such though
[09:02] <zyga> okay I got it not to crash
[09:02] <zyga> hmm
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[09:05] <sivang> zyga: what did you do?
[09:05] <zyga> sivang: no, my mistake... wait a sec
[09:05] <zyga> I'll rebuild the database to be sure
[09:06] <sivang> zyga: I see the problem was fixed in slocate upgraded just now, sorry for the fuss probbly got fixed in debian ...I should have checked there before
[09:06] <zyga> ok :)
[09:06] <zyga> what was the problem?
[09:06] <Kamion> mdz: Mithrandir says he's fixed the default, although I'll make a small gfxboot-theme-ubuntu tweak too probably
[09:07] <Kamion> mdz: test today's install CD for some fun
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[09:11] <mdz> Kamion: "fun"?
[09:12] <marcin`> hello developers...
[09:12] <marcin`> I got a question
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[09:13] <marcin`> could someone tell me if is it possible to write book about ubuntu linux and put fragments of ubuntu documentation in it?
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[09:14] <zyga> marcin`: probably
[09:14] <zyga> marcin`: you'd have to look at idividual licenses (to check if they are compatible with one another)
[09:15] <marcin`> zyga: I'm not sure if it is legal...
[09:15] <zyga> or explicitly ask permission from doc authors for a special license for a fragment
[09:15] <mvo> ping ogra
[09:15] <ogra_ibook> mvo, pong
[09:17] <marcin`> zyga: hmm I would like to write book about entire ubuntu-desktop... it's on gpl and lgpl (afaik)
[09:18] <zyga> marcin`: doc is often written with different licenses
[09:18] <lifeless> morning
[09:18] <zyga> marcin`: would your book be freely available?
[09:18] <marcin`> zyga: another thing is that I would like to write some documentation in my native language and upload it to gnome.pl team
[09:19] <marcin`> zyga: but then I would like to use these parts of documentation as part of my book
[09:19] <zyga> marcin`: hmm... it depends on what the whole book be licences like
[09:19] <marcin`> zyga: can I use different license for documentation than license for application that I want to describe?
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[09:20] <zyga> only if the license allows such 'derived work', you should read each license and check
[09:20] <marcin`> zyga: well the thing is that I would like to write book - and describe various parts of ubuntu desktop
[09:20] <mdz> documentation isn't a derived work of the work it's documenting
[09:20] <tsume> does ubuntu have a special development team for ruby like debian, or does ubuntu use the debian-ruby teams packages?
[09:20] <marcin`> zyga: and then publish my text in book form and sell something 
[09:20] <marcin`> zyga: (well I just would like to earn some money)
[09:21] <mdz> tsume: occasionally someone patches ruby, but currently (in dapper) it's identical to the package in unstable
[09:21] <marcin`> zyga: but then I would like to contribute my work to open source community
[09:21] <tsume> theres a serious problem with the ruby libraries which come with ubuntu. The libraries seem to be a compeltely different version.
[09:21] <dholbach> tsume: both, you maybe should talk to lucas
[09:21] <zyga> mdz: but docs written that include existing docs could be derived work
[09:21] <tsume> mdz: its like the ruby libs for the stdlib base in ruby come from 1.8.2.
[09:21] <marcin`> zyga: after let's say - 1-2 month after printed documentation
[09:21] <dholbach> tsume: and i doubt they are "completely" different
[09:21] <mdz> tsume: can you explain what you mean in terms of packages in the archive?
[09:21] <zyga> tsume: tell lucas about that, he will be most interested
[09:22] <tsume> mdz: I was just debugging someones problem, and noticed time.rb is not the version distributed with ruby 1.8.3
[09:22] <mdz> zyga: yes, that would be modifying documentation; marcin` seemed to say he would write it from scratch
[09:22] <tsume> mdz: the parse method for Time is completely different, which indicates it was modified, or an older version.
[09:22] <zyga> mdz: yes but he also noted that he'd use parts of existing docs
[09:23] <mdz> tsume: that's because the current stable release (5.10) contains ruby 1.8.2, not 1.8.3
[09:23] <marcin`> zyga: that's right
[09:23] <marcin`> zyga: I would like to write a lot from scratch
[09:24] <marcin`> zyga: but also I would like to use parts for example gnome-guide...
[09:24] <zyga> IMHO you'd have to ask individual authors for permission to include their text and not to release the book as free as in speech
[09:24] <zyga> but please read the relevant licenses to be sure
[09:25] <tsume> wtf
[09:26] <Kamion> mdz: base-config go bye-bye
[09:26] <Kamion> (it's good fun)
[09:27] <marcin`> zyga: ok - but last question then - if I'll write everyting from scratch
[09:27] <tsume> mdz: its a big wtf here then :)
[09:27] <mdz> Kamion: does it work?
[09:27] <marcin`> zyga: do I need any permission then?
[09:27] <tsume> mdz: somehow a rogue ruby seemed to sneek on my system :)
[09:27] <Kamion> mdz: the i386 CD worked in qemu for me
[09:27] <zyga> marcin`: no
[09:27] <zyga> then it's all your copyrighted text
[09:27] <Kamion> still a few glitches, but apparently nothing major
[09:28] <mdz> ok, will give it a shot
[09:28] <marcin`> zyga: and it doesn't matter then that this text is about some gpl software?
[09:28] <marcin`> zyga: just my words - my license - right?
[09:28] <mdz> marcin`: correct
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[09:28] <mdz> marcin`: the license of the software is only applicable to copying it, not talking about it
[09:29] <marcin`> mdz: ok - thanks
[09:29] <zyga> mdz: not really... check the license for .NET crap
[09:29] <zyga> :-)
[09:30] <marcin`> mdz: but then I can for example format my text to docbook and upload this as for example - gnome user guide in polish lang - on gpl or lgpl license?
[09:30] <marcin`> mdz: am I right?
[09:30] <teprrr> hum, have daniels used to hang out here? or someone else who knows about xorg things?
[09:30] <tsume> hrm.
[09:30] <tsume> I know I didn't install it. Is there a way to verify package files?
[09:30] <mdz> debsums
[09:30] <mdz> marcin`: you can do whatever you like as long as you wrote it
[09:31] <marcin`> mdz: ok
[09:31] <marcin`> mdz: so I'll start my book :)
[09:31] <sivang> zyga: I Was wrong before, I checked again and it still there
[09:31] <sivang> zyga: it just segfaults after you sudo -s "cmd"
[09:31] <marcin`> mdz: and after few months on market I'll contribute this book to open source community :)
[09:32] <tsume> mdz: what if I tell you debsum said ruby1.8 was OK for a checksum? :)
[09:32] <tsume> mdz: I know I didn't build it on my machine, since the runtime says its 486-linux
[09:33] <mdz> tsume: I'd tell you that you probably have it installed in /usr/local, and that this is a matter for #ubuntu rather than #ubuntu-devel
[09:33] <tsume> mdz: its in /usr/ ;)
[09:34] <zyga> sivang: darn I rm -rf'd my code :)
[09:34] <zyga> sivang: contact the upstream, it's an app bug IMHO
[09:34] <tsume> mdz: there needs to be a #ubuntu-technical, since usually home channels are filled with kids and chat.
[09:34] <tsume> or a #ubuntu-tech
[09:35] <zyga> tsume: #ubuntu-pro ;-)
[09:35] <tsume> oh, that was a joke :)
[09:35] <sivang> zyga: I'm sorry then, you were probably close :-/
[09:36] <zyga> sivang: the code that managed search_str in search_db is fishy, I'd add a couple of asserts and recompile but I'm not going to work on this ... no time to start YET another thing
[09:36] <mdz> Kamion: hwdetect is nice and snappy now
[09:37] <sivang> zyga: right,I might give it a look when I'm done with what I'm douing :)
[09:37] <Kamion> mdz: <3 udev
[09:38] <trulux> anyone with experience working on pygtk-based stuff?
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[09:38] <tsume> mdz: I'm curious why someone would use the CVS version of ruby
[09:39] <Robot101> slomo: mplayer seems to be missing a libmp4v2-dev build dep
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[09:39] <mdz> Kamion: would be interesting to benchmark against breezy, given that we also do DMA now
[09:39] <zyga> trulux: what do you need?
[09:40] <Robot101> slomo: although I am building the dapper package on breezy
[09:40] <slomo> Robot101: hm no... libfaac-dev misses a dependency on libmp4v2-dev in breezy but not in dapper... where are you building it?
[09:40] <trulux> zyga: I don't know how to add more than one widget (a chekc button) to a frame
[09:40] <slomo> Robot101: ok, you answered your own question ;)
[09:40] <Robot101> slomo: on breezy, it fails building ad_mpc too, but I don't care about that so I'll disable it :)
[09:41] <tsume> mdz: I guess I'll just hang around in #debian-ruby and beat lucas senseless when I see him. :)
[09:41] <mdz> I'll try to remember to do that when doing upgrade testing, since I'll need to install breezy anyway
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[09:41] <Robot101> slomo: upstream really love these packages it seems... :)
[09:41] <slomo> Robot101: you mean mplayer upstream? yes... they don't like packages in general it seems ;)
[09:42] <zyga> trulux: read the glade tutorial and pygtk tutorial
[09:42] <zyga> trulux: basically you need a container but that is all abstracted away by glade :)
[09:42] <trulux> zyga: I'm on it, but I'm not using glade at all
[09:42] <zyga> trulux: check update-manager or language-selector for a small (relatively) codebase that is using glade 
[09:42] <mdz> Kamion: "select and install software" is very nice looking, apart from the non-functional estimate of time remaining
[09:42] <trulux> zyga: I've already checked the tutorial and the reference
[09:42] <zyga> trulux: you should try glade, it will make your problem go away
[09:43] <trulux> well, I'll give it a look now
[09:43] <zyga> trulux: unless you are building a really weir app glade can do 99.9% of your GUI creation work
[09:44] <zyga> trulux: and if it's desktop oriented feel free to join #u-desktop
[09:44] <trulux> zyga: OK, I'm going to join the channel and comment about the project
[09:45] <sivang> tr	ffddd
[09:48] <Robot101> spot the irssi user :)
[09:51] <sivang> heh
[09:51] <sivang> lost network for a while
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[10:08] <psusi> well, I just wrote my first space... anyone want to critique it?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PacketCD
[10:08] <psusi> s/space/spec
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[10:12] <Pygi> psusi: I'll go take a look 
[10:13] <rraphink> psusi: very interesting
[10:13] <sivang> psusi: now I know we do not support packet mode by default :) I was sure this was supported..
[10:14] <rraphink> correct me if i'm wrong
[10:14] <rraphink> but CDRWs lose in thickness when they are erased
[10:14] <psusi> well, it didn't take a whole lot to get it working ;)
[10:15] <rraphink> so this would mean that using this kind of technology could end up having CDRWs that are not really flat 
[10:15] <psusi> rraphink, they don't physically get smaller, but yea, they can only withstand about 1000 write cycles
[10:15] <rraphink> ok
[10:15] <rraphink> I mean
[10:15] <rraphink> with the current technology erasing the CD entirely 
[10:15] <Amaranth> 1000?
[10:16] <rraphink> you don't get much difference in thickness when burning data on a CDRW
[10:16] <Amaranth> i wiped one 10 times and all my burner apps (OS X) tell me it can't be written to anymore
[10:16] <mdz> Kamion: amd64 daily install was successful, though eth0 wasn't configured at boot
[10:16] <rraphink> really Amaranth ?
[10:16] <Amaranth> yeah
[10:16] <psusi> rraphink, I don't know what you're talking about thickness... the disc physically doesn't change...
[10:16] <rraphink> hmm
[10:16] <Amaranth> i'm thinking if i could find an app that ignores what the disc tells it maybe it would work
[10:16] <rraphink> psusi: physically some layers of the disc are removed
[10:16] <Amaranth> but i don't want to put anymore important on that disc anymore
[10:16] <psusi> Amaranth, I have written to and formatted this one in my drive now at least 30 times
[10:16] <rraphink> when erasing a CD
[10:16] <rraphink> no?
[10:17] <sivang> Amaranth: weird. I have various ones , written over 10> times, and they still work
[10:17] <psusi> Amaranth, and everything I have read says it can take about 1000 write/erase cycles
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[10:17] <rraphink> wb ogra 
[10:17] <psusi> rraphink, I'm fairly certain that is incorrect
[10:17] <sivang> psusi: bascially, the session mode is applicable to non RW discs as well right? 
[10:17] <rraphink> psusi: that can be :)
[10:17] <rraphink> (incorretc i mean)
[10:18] <psusi> the media is heated and when it cools, the lattice structure is a bit different, so it is more or less reflective
[10:18] <psusi> I believe
[10:18] <psusi> sivang, yes... you can burn cdr media in the current session mode... packet mode is more for rewritable media
[10:19] <psusi> in theory you could use it on cdr media... but it's main benefit is easy reuse of deleted space, which can't be done on cdr media anyhow
[10:19] <psusi> so it wouldn't make much sense
[10:19] <sivang> psusi: noted, thanks.
[10:20] <Pygi> pitti: ping
[10:20] <psusi> with the current growisofs method, each session you add can only use up more space... and the more sessions you have on the disc the slower it gets
[10:21] <sivang> psusi: is there a definite way to know when a disc is going to make his last write cycle?
[10:21] <psusi> sivang, not that I know of
[10:22] <Pygi> sivang: but we can predict that based on the *some* factors
[10:22] <rraphink> this is very interesting anyway
[10:23] <rraphink> I think I''ll use more CDRW if i can use them this way
[10:23] <rraphink> :)
[10:23] <sivang> psusi, Pygi : I'm asking in realtion to HomeUserBackup. My interested is clear, I think :)
[10:24] <psusi> I have also found out that there is some windows software that enables packet mode... I have seen one called "incd" before.. only it uses variable length packets... each file gets an entire packet... currently linux only supports fixed length packets
[10:24] <sivang> (I might fall as another use case as well)
[10:24] <psusi> variable packets waste less space, and can be read by older systems it seems
[10:24] <Pygi> sivang: hehe :)
[10:24] <Pygi> psusi: huh, can't we somehow "enable" it?
[10:24] <psusi> sivang, I think it's like how you used to use floppies for the purpose: if you write to it every day, after maybe 3-6 months, it's time to replace it ;)
[10:25] <sivang> psusi: seems fair, yes.
[10:25] <psusi> Pygi, yes... install and dpkg-reconfigure the udftools package
[10:25] <psusi> then use the included cwrwtool program to format the disc... then you need to hack the hal fdi policies a bit for it to auto mount
[10:26] <psusi> I'd like to get the udftools package modified so that it 1) auto configures on install and 2) automatically sets up the hal fdi policy for auto mount
[10:26] <psusi> but I'm not quite sure how to do that yet ;)
[10:26] <Pygi> huh, shell script or python one?
[10:27] <psusi> huh?
[10:27] <Pygi> nothin' :)
[10:29] <Pygi> can't you use shell or python scripts to make that?
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[10:29] <psusi> not sure... I haven't yet learned about how debconf works
[10:30] <psusi> I just know that dpkg-reconfigure udftools asks you some simple questions then sets up the pktcdvd device... it should also create an appropriate hal fdi policy file
[10:31] <psusi> I'm also still trying to figure out if there is anyone maintaining the pktcdvd kernel driver upstream
[10:31] <psusi> the project page on sourceforge has not had any cvs changes or active mail on the mailing list in over a year
[10:32] <psusi> if it is not maintained I just might end up fixing it myself... it needs to get rid of the hard coded packet length... the default packet length stinks, larger is better
[10:34] <Pygi> k, good luck :)
[10:35] <Kamion> mdz: the time estimate is an aptitude bug, I presume
[10:35] <Kamion> or perhaps apt
[10:35] <Kamion> mdz: network plugging is a known problem with current udev
[10:36] <Kamion> mdz: yes, benchmarking would be good, especially for sabdfl's "fastest installer in the west" kick ;-)
[10:36] <mdz> Kamion: hmm, don't we have timestamps somewhere already? maybe in the typescript?
[10:37] <mdz> modulo user input
[10:37] <Kamion> /var/log/installer/syslog does have timestamps; not sure there's anything for base-config
[10:37] <Kamion> you might be able to work it out from the timestamp of /var/log/base-config.log?
[10:38] <Kamion> i.e. mtime
[10:38] <mdz> yeah, maybe
[10:38] <dholbach> good night
[10:38] <Kamion> yeah, that should work, that's the typescript
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[10:40] <jdong> hey, what does buildd mean when builds are given-back?
[10:40] <jdong> quite a few GNOME/GTK related backports aren't compiling because of it
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[10:44] <Kamion> jdong: transient failure, leave to the buildd admin
[10:44] <Kamion> usually that it tried to build at a bad time when the master archive was busy doing maintenance on itself
[10:45] <jdong> Kaloz: do I need to take any action then? (i.e. request a rebuild, etc)
[10:46] <jdong> Kamion: rather
[10:46] <jdong> stupid tab completion :)
[10:55] <Kamion> jdong: no
[10:55] <Kamion> if it drags on *too* long, ping lamont/infinity about it, but in the short term just let them do their jobs :)
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[10:58] <jdong> Kamion: alrighty then, thanks for your time
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[11:02] <janimo> elmo, when you have time please add jani@u.c to the main upload whitelist. thank you
[11:03] <crimsun> janimo: we'll still have to merge xfce4-terminal due to the .desktop calling the wrong binary
[11:03] <janimo> crimsun, I'll merge it as soon as exo leaves NEW
[11:04] <crimsun> janimo: right, thanks.
[11:04] <janimo> right now since our exo is ahead in version numbering, I jut take the debian/ dir and merged it into our package
[11:04] <janimo> so we're in sync short of the actual version number
[11:04] <janimo> but thanks for the terminal .desktop reminder
[11:05] <Kamion> janimo: *@ubuntu.com is already whitelisted
[11:05] <janimo> Kamion, then the GPG key need special treatment?
[11:05] <janimo> I uploaded to main today and got rejected
[11:06] <Kamion> yes, that's about the GPG key, not about the *-changes whitelist
[11:06] <zyga> jdub: ping
[11:06] <Kamion> (*@ubuntu.com> at least I think so ...)
[11:06] <janimo> I have a RT ticket opened two weeks ago on that
[11:06] <janimo> yes, it was whitelisted for universe till now, and I am using that address in uploads
[11:07] <janimo> ok I'll ask the right thing then
[11:07] <Kamion> RT ticket as in rt@admin? that's for general sysadmin requests; the GPG keyring is an ftpmaster admin task
[11:07] <Kamion> AFAIK
[11:07] <Kamion> anyway, just leave it for now
[11:07] <janimo> I was told not to bug elmo, but file a ticket in RT.canonical
[11:08] <Kamion> told by elmo?
[11:08] <janimo> I thought I can ask again since some time has passed
[11:08] <janimo> yes, he told me that
[11:08] <Kamion> ok, fair enough
[11:08] <Kamion> try waiting until he comes back from holiday
[11:08] <Kamion> today's a UK bank holiday; it's not fair to assume that UK employees will be around :)
[11:09] <janimo> he has just synced today :) .Maybe he does that on holiday too
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[11:14] <jdub> zyga: pong
[11:15] <zyga> jdub: is the planet back to being functional?
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[11:15] <zyga> jdub: I'd like my blog to be included in the feed someday
[11:15] <jdub> zyga: not entirely, if you want to be added, send me an email with your member reference
[11:15] <jdub> hopefully it'll be sorted out soon
[11:15] <zyga> jdub: member reference?
[11:15] <zyga> launchpad profile?
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[11:16] <jdub> zyga: yeah, whatever lets me know you're a member :)
[11:16] <ogra_ibook> zyga, your membership in the ubuntumembers launchpad team 
[11:17] <zyga> I was approved as a member but nobody have updated my profile :/
[11:18] <sivang> good night all
[11:18] <zyga> sivang: night :)
[11:18] <sivang> night zyga  , rock on
[11:20] <ogra_ibook> zyga, then you should talk to one of the CC members why you are no member of the tem yet, normally it gets updateted right away
[11:20] <zyga> ogra_ibook: trying to locate the list 
[11:20] <ogra_ibook> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+members
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[11:21] <zyga> I'm a proposed member on that list
[11:21] <ogra_ibook> yes, but not approved
[11:22] <zyga> ogra_ibook: I was approved on the last CC meeting, the logs and wiki can confirm this
[11:22] <zyga> (as well as memory of the people who were there)
[11:22] <lucas> zyga: same for me. let's just wait or ping Kamion ;)
[11:22] <ogra_ibook> zyga, so ping the CC that it gets updated ... this list is the master we use everywhere now
[11:22] <zyga> lucas: I'll try the latter :)
[11:22] <zyga> Kamion: ping
[11:24] <lucas> Irvin Piraman is in the same case too
[11:24] <zyga> lucas: seems like a massive overlook
[11:25] <lucas> 3 doesn't make it massive ;)
[11:25] <zyga> lucas: if self in list: massive = True # ;-)
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[11:29] <lucas> you want to write it massive = list.include?(self) ;)
[11:31] <zyga> lucas: that's ruby? :)
[11:32] <zyga> massive = self in some_list
[11:36] <Riddell> Kamion: do you know if the dapper installer will use sources.list.d by default or just sources.list?
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[11:46] <mdz> seb128: is it only me, or is gconftool-2 very slow now during upgrades?
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[11:46] <mdz> it seems to take several seconds each time it is invoked
[11:47] <seb128> I've noticed some slowness when configuring some GNOME package but not tried to figure what causes it
[11:47] <seb128> I'll have a look to know if that's due to gconf
[11:48] <mdz> when I notice the slowness, it is always gconftool-2 running
[11:48] <seb128> maybe a side effect of using one merged file
[11:48] <seb128> I'll have a look on that tomorrow
[12:00] <mdz> seb128: if it's a tradeoff of slow upgrades for faster runtime, that's OK with me
[12:01] <seb128> that's probably that but I'll have some look to be sure
[12:03] <Kamion> zyga: tomorrow, if you could, or mail me; I'm about to go to bed
[12:03] <Kamion> Riddell: just sources.list unless somebody gives me a good reason otherwise beyond "it's there" :-)