[12:07] <kjcole> ajmitch, The page is taking shape... Not done yet, but look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/2005-12-10
[12:07] <kjcole> ajmitch, and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School
[12:08] <ajmitch> ok
[12:19] <nalioth> what are the courtesys on packaging things that are in REVU already?
[12:27] <ajmitch> nalioth: you generally don't
[12:27] <kjcole> ajmitch, Everything up to the "ajmitch sets mode: -m" (public question time) is up, though some formatting required.  Lemme know what you think later.
[12:34] <nalioth> next question. i'm now getting errors >>> Build dependencies/conflicts unsatisfied; aborting. <<< even though i have all the depends on the machine now (are meta-pkgs valid in teh build-depends?)
[12:36] <ajmitch> it will list what packages are msising
[12:42] <nalioth> ajmitch: it makes no sense to me http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/6556     as i have all those pkgs
[12:46] <ajmitch> not according to that :)
[12:47] <nalioth> i've tried kde-devel in that space, but what i pasted is the components of kde-devel
[12:47] <nalioth> perhaps i'm overdoing it
[12:48] <Kyral> hehe nalioth
[12:50] <nalioth> Kyral: i'm clueless on all this
[12:50] <nalioth> i speak many human languages, but this stuff is unknown to me
[12:50] <Kyral> Like I was 4 months ago
[12:52] <GregorR-L> Kyral: And now you barely speak English but can speak C++ in your sleep? ;)
[12:52] <Kyral> that was a bad pin
[12:52] <Kyral> pun even
[12:52] <Kyral> ;P
[12:52] <Kyral> Soon I'll be able to speak Python in my sleep :D
[12:53] <ajmitch> nalioth: you're not building it in a chroot or something?
[12:54] <Kyral> nalioth, have I not explained to you the benefits of PBuilders?
[12:59] <nalioth> i'm really confused now
[01:00] <nalioth> i'm trying to take source tarballs and dh_make them into something usable by ubuntu/debian
[01:00] <Kyral> nalioth: have you read the New Maintainers Guide?
[01:00] <nalioth> Kyral: it's over my head quite a bit
[01:01] <seth_k|lappy> nalioth, tip: use your @ubuntu.com address for maintainer stuff; it'll make it easier in the long run
[01:01] <Kyral> and more professional!
[01:01] <nalioth> seth_k|lappy: ok, i'll have to figure out how to attach it to my gpg key
[01:01] <seth_k|lappy> add a 'uid'
[01:02] <Kyral> Like I did
[01:02] <Kyral> 3 times...
[01:05] <Kyral> also set .bashrc to export DEBEMAIL=<your @ubuntu.com>
[01:05] <seth_k|lappy> Any KDE-loving MOTU want to review a kde-style real fast?
[01:06] <Kyral> seth_k|lappy: If I was MOTU I would because I owe Riddell for uploading EasyChem
[01:07] <raphink> good work done in doc today :)
[01:07] <Kyral> Yah I was redoing the Emacs Wiki
[01:07] <Kyral> then my computer crashed and I lost all the work >_<
[01:07] <raphink> real fast seth_k|lappy ?
[01:08] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, the diff is like 2KB ( http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1374 )
[01:08] <raphink> let's see
[01:08] <Kyral> I'm not doing DocTeam work more like fixing the Wikis
[01:08] <nalioth> Kyral: yes, i got all that export stuff, and just added a uid to my key and exported it to the world
[01:09] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: Remove client/config/configdialog.{h,cc} from orig.tar.gz.
[01:09] <raphink> why?
[01:09] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, FTBFS otherwise. I'll show you (but Riddell was the one that told me to do it)
[01:09] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, http://seth.pastebin.com/488266
[01:09] <Kyral> Gotta wait until the Installer is done before I can work on the Install Guide for DocTeam
[01:09] <raphink> FTBFS?
[01:09] <seth_k|lappy> fails to build from source, sorry
[01:09] <Kyral> Fail To Build From Source
[01:10] <seth_k|lappy> notice the highlighted lines. It tries to moc a file that can't be found
[01:10] <seth_k|lappy> but configdialog.{h,cc} are generated from configdialog.ui
[01:10] <raphink> hmm ok
[01:10] <raphink> ok fine then
[01:10] <raphink> you could use compat 5
[01:11] <Kyral> wtf is compat 5?
[01:11] <raphink> I was talking to seth_k|lappy Kyral
[01:11] <Kyral> yah buyt what is it lol
[01:11] <raphink> debhelper >= 5 in control
[01:11] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, but if it doesn't need it, should I stick to the lower compat?
[01:11] <raphink> and 5 >> compat
[01:11] <Kyral> ah
[01:12] <ajmitch> I'm sure in your pakages Kyral you've set the compat level for debhelper
[01:12] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: the policy is to now use compat 5
[01:12] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, okay, thanks :) I shall change
[01:12] <Kyral> ajmitch: Uhh...I let dh_make do it...
[01:13] <ajmitch> Kyral: and there lies the problems in today's society
[01:13] <Kyral> yah yah
[01:13] <seth_k|lappy> ajmitch++
[01:13] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: in debian/control long description : s/that aim/that aims/
[01:13] <Kyral> dh_make defaults to compat 4
[01:14] <ajmitch> for now
[01:14] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, no... subject/verb agreement
[01:14] <raphink> Kyral: yes and it's outdated
[01:14] <seth_k|lappy> the styles aim
[01:14] <raphink> hehe sorry seth_k|lappy
[01:14] <raphink> mea culpa ;)
[01:14] <Kyral> hmm
[01:15] <Kyral> I should change EasyChem to compat 5 and have someone upload the debdiff
[01:15] <ajmitch> raphink: I don't think it's mandatory to use 5, but recommended
[01:15] <ajmitch> Kyral: it's not like it'll change much
[01:15] <seth_k|lappy> no worries, mon franais est plus, plus pire que votre anglais :P
[01:15] <raphink> ajmitch: never said it was mandatory ;)
[01:15] <Kyral> ajmitch: yah but I think Riddell reccommended whenever the package gets updated
[01:15] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: ;)
[01:15] <Kyral> like when Upstream releases again
[01:16] <ajmitch> raphink: no, you said ' the policy is to now use compat 5'
[01:16] <raphink> hmm yes
[01:16] <raphink> ajmitch: i'm afraid not everyone follows or even know the policy in most cases, so
[01:16] <raphink> ;)
[01:16] <raphink> ajmitch: talking of policy, I added a policy issue for next MOTU meeting
[01:17] <raphink> in the agenda
[01:17] <Kyral> when is that?
[01:17] <Kyral> The next MOTUMeeting?
[01:17] <ajmitch> undecided
[01:17] <raphink> no idea when it is
[01:17] <Kyral> I hangout in #ubuntu-meeting anyway
[01:17] <nalioth> can i run dh_make outside of a chroot and let my pbuilder make it again inside the chroot?
[01:17] <Kyral> so I'll catch it
[01:17] <nalioth> er, debuild, i mean
[01:17] <raphink> but there's already something in the agenda ;)
[01:18] <ajmitch> raphink: the thing is, there's no difference between those 2 files
[01:18] <raphink> ajmitch: yes but with GPL3 coming there might be
[01:19] <raphink> policy states .../GPL should be used
[01:19] <raphink> but doesn't talk about .../GPL-2 at all
[01:19] <raphink> and it seems GPL-2 is a static one
[01:19] <Kyral> oh jeez what is that package that helps test Debpacks
[01:19] <raphink> whereas GPL is to be dynamic and link to GPL3 once released
[01:19] <raphink> so it should be for "GPL 2 or later" packages
[01:19] <Kyral> not Linda or Lintain...
[01:19] <raphink> lintian
[01:19] <ajmitch> file a bug on debian-policy then :)
[01:20] <raphink> ajmitch: well we can discuss it ;)
[01:20] <Kyral> puiparts I think
[01:20] <raphink> slomo seemed to think packaged released on GPL 2 had to be linked to GPL-2
[01:20] <Kyral> or something like that
[01:20] <raphink> although GPL also contains GPL v2 now
[01:20] <raphink> and I don't know any app released under GPL 1
[01:20] <raphink> since it's far too old
[01:20] <Kyral> got it piuparts
[01:21] <raphink> ajmitch: I don't think there is anything to modify in debian-policy package
[01:21] <raphink> just to get clear on whether packages need to link to .../GPL or .../GPL-2
[01:21] <raphink> and how to deal with GPL-3 when we'll have packages using it
[01:21] <Kyral> GPL-3 is out?
[01:21] <raphink> (when it's released that is )
[01:21] <Kyral> lol
[01:22] <raphink> nope
[01:22] <raphink> it's soon to be out though
[01:22] <raphink> if I understood well
[01:22] <seth_k|lappy> raphink, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1375 switched to compat 5
[01:22] <seth_k|lappy> thanks for the comment
[01:23] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: building now
[01:23] <raphink> finishing to review
[01:23] <raphink> so ar it's a nice package
[01:23] <raphink> Kyral: GPL-3 is expected for the beginning of 2006, according to various sources on the NET
[01:23] <Kyral> ah
[01:23] <raphink> although hey we all know the FSF ;)
[01:23] <raphink> and the Hurd was expected for 1994 I think ;)
[01:24] <Kyral> lol
[01:24] <Kyral> I actually wanna install Debian/HURD on a spare partition
[01:24] <raphink> http://www.fsf.org/Members/peterb/gplv3
[01:24] <lucas> http://ox.blop.info/bazaar/universe-versionslist.html.gz
[01:25] <lucas> Outdated in Ubuntu (Ubuntu version < Debian version) : 105 packages
[01:25] <lucas> arg !
[01:25] <lucas> still 105 merges to do !
[01:25] <Kyral> lol
[01:26] <ajmitch> hah
[01:26] <ajmitch> raphink: 2010?
[01:26] <Kyral> I also wanna play with LFS
[01:26] <ajmitch> or 2020?
[01:27] <raphink> ajmitch: ;)
[01:27] <raphink> we'll see ;)
[01:27] <raphink> I don't lose hope
[01:27] <raphink> nor does gnubuntu imo
[01:27] <raphink> they'll have to get a kernel after all ;)
[01:27] <Kyral> yah, WTF is up with that
[01:27] <Kyral> is GNUbuntu gonna be Ubuntu/HURD or something?
[01:27] <nalioth> ajmitch: care to run at my latest folly? (scroll up)
[01:28] <ajmitch> lucas:
[01:28] <ajmitch> ajmitch@tiber:~/scripts$ wc -l current/merges
[01:28] <ajmitch> 140 current/merges
[01:28] <ajmitch> mine does count main as well
[01:28] <ajmitch> nalioth: excuse me?
[01:28] <nalioth> ajmitch: i asked a question above. i'll ask it again.
[01:29] <ajmitch> please do
[01:29] <nalioth> an i run debuild outside of a chroot and let my pbuilder make it again inside the chroot?
[01:29] <ajmitch> pbuilder has its own chroot
[01:30] <nalioth> also, how to add INCLUDEPACKAGE variables into my pbuilderrc? i've got INCLUDEPACKAGE=gnupg, but it's not including it
[01:30] <Kyral> hey LJ
[01:30] <ajmitch> why do you want to do that?
[01:30] <nalioth> ajmitch: yes, but is running debuild on my own account gonna create any nastiness in the .dsc, and such?
[01:30] <ajmitch> it may do
[01:30] <ajmitch> depending on how the packaging is
[01:31] <ajmitch> and if upstream has proper makefiles
[01:31] <nalioth> ajmitch: i have no idea what i'm doing here. i want gnupg in my pbuilder so it quits complaining about 'is gnupg installed'
[01:31] <ajmitch> I hate packages where you can't build them cleanly twice in a row
[01:31] <ajmitch> pbuilder --save-after-login login
[01:31] <ajmitch> install gnupg
[01:32] <nalioth> ajmitch: ah, ok. ty
[01:36] <raphink> bad crash
[01:37] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: comment sent
[01:38] <seth_k|lappy> haha thanks raphink
[01:38] <seth_k|lappy> :)
[01:38] <LaserJock> lucas: how's to wiki work going?
[01:39] <Kyral> gah...anyone know what the vpenis stat for a processor means? Everytime I fire off my sysinfo script I get a wierd reaction because of that stat...
[01:39] <lucas> LaserJock: I did quite a lot of rewriting/merging/removing
[01:39] <lucas> nobody has complained yet, so it looks like I didn't remove too many important things by mistake ;)
[01:39] <LaserJock> lucas: yeah, I saw that. I am subscribed to all the MOTU pages
[01:40] <raphink> no fun, this package is too perfect ;)
[01:40] <raphink> hehe
[01:41] <raphink> siretart: are you there?
[01:41] <ajmitch> siretart is off for a week
[01:42] <LaserJock> lucas: do you think that anything on Merging is useful for MOTUMerging ?
[01:42] <raphink> yes, lucas's been very busy on the wiki today :)
[01:42] <lucas> ah
[01:42] <lucas> didn't know of Merging
[01:44] <lucas> this page is cool
[01:44] <lucas> I'll add a link on MOTUMerging
[01:47] <LaserJock> cool, I worked quite a bit on that page but I don't know if it is really useful
[01:48] <lucas> so many ubuntu-specific changes, so many merges to do
[01:49] <raphink> lucas: :(
[01:49] <raphink> :( :(
[01:50] <raphink> or yet really
[01:50] <raphink> whatever
[01:50] <lucas> :-)
[01:51] <lucas> try to work on xtranslate
[01:51] <lucas> it is an easy one, looking at the diffs
[01:52] <raphink> lucas: would you have time to explain to me how to merge ?
[01:52] <lucas> try first to read MOTUMerging and the linked pages
[01:52] <lucas> if you have questions, I can answer them and improve the docs
[01:53] <raphink> ok
[01:53] <raphink> well looking at http://revu.tauware.de/~sistpoty/MoM/index.py?state=new
[01:53] <raphink> I see only 7 packages to merge
[01:53] <lucas> yeah, the list is generated from the logs
[01:53] <crimsun_> list hasn't been refreshed yet
[01:53] <lucas> and it's probably buggy
[01:53] <raphink> ic
[01:53] <lucas> use the list from http://ox.blop.info/bazaar/universe-versionslist.html.gz
[01:53] <raphink> so where do I get the real list?
[01:54] <lucas> look at the legend at the bottom
[01:54] <raphink> ok
[01:54] <lucas> oups legend is not english :-)
[01:54] <LaserJock> well the revu.tauware.de list comes from the MoM logs
[01:54] <raphink> argh
[01:54] <crimsun_> I use the version on tiber
[01:54] <raphink> so merges are to be done on the orange ones, right?
[01:54] <LaserJock> is MoM working still?
[01:55] <raphink> Outdated in Ubuntu (Ubuntu version < Debian version) : 105 packages
[01:55] <lucas> LaserJock: it seems to miss a lot of merges
[01:55] <crimsun_> yep, MoM still works
[01:55] <lucas> raphink: yes
[01:55] <raphink> that's what is to be synced/merged?
[01:55] <raphink> ok
[01:56] <lucas> try xwit and wtranslate
[01:56] <lucas> xwit is a sync, xtranslate is a simple merge
[01:56] <raphink> why?
[01:56] <raphink> I'll work on kde ones ;)
[01:56] <lucas> because they are easy :-)
[01:56] <raphink> kgeography
[01:56] <raphink> :)
[01:56] <raphink> well I'm a packager and I already reviewed merges
[01:57] <lucas> kgeograhy should be autosynced
[01:57] <raphink> i just don't know the steps with the bugs an malone and so on
[01:57] <raphink> but I know how to package ;)
[01:57] <lucas> since there's no ubuntu changes
[01:57] <crimsun_> it'd be nice if http://ox.blop.info/bazaar/universe-versionslist.html.gz could be filtered only for ones that we need to merge
[01:57] <lucas> probably just lagging
[01:57] <raphink> hm ok
[01:57] <lucas> crimsun: I can do that
[01:57] <crimsun_> lucas: great, I'd really appreciate it
[01:57] <raphink> lucas: so only packages with ubuntu changes must be checked and merged/synced manually?
[01:58] <lucas> well kgeography is an exception
[01:58] <LaserJock> raphink: right
[01:58] <lucas> it's here because it was probably uploaded today
[01:58] <raphink> ok
[01:58] <raphink> how about kmess then?
[01:58] <lucas> ah, no, that's strange
[01:58] <lucas> anyway
[01:58] <lucas> yes, go with kmess :)
[01:59] <raphink> hmm
[01:59] <lucas> ah
[01:59] <raphink> how do I merge kmess ?
[01:59] <lucas> kmess is -0ubuntu2
[01:59] <lucas> it was uploaded to ubuntu BEFORE debian
[01:59] <lucas> through REVU probably
[01:59] <raphink> it's a package that was added by Tonio_ from scratch
[01:59] <LaserJock> well, it looks like revu.tauware.de has up to 12/31/05
[01:59] <raphink> yes
[01:59] <raphink> exactly
[01:59] <lucas> so what you can do is debdiff them
[01:59] <raphink> not so long ago
[02:00] <lucas> see if debian improved the package
[02:00] <raphink> lucas: who'll get the authoring for the package?
[02:00] <lucas> by authoring, what do you mean ?
[02:00] <raphink> hmm ok
[02:00] <lucas> the maintainer field doesn't change
[02:00] <raphink> I shall get the packages from p.d.o and p.u.c I guess
[02:00] <lucas> if it's a merge, you add a changelog entry with your name
[02:00] <raphink> and run the debdiff manually
[02:00] <raphink> no I mean
[02:00] <lucas> yes
[02:00] <raphink> if I merge the Debian version in Ubuntu
[02:01] <seth_k|lappy> merging is confusing; I never understood how to do it efficiently
[02:01] <seth_k|lappy> I can do it, but not quickly (and probably not well)
[02:01] <raphink> Tonio_ will lose the maintainership of his
[02:01] <raphink> his package will disappear
[02:01] <crimsun_> merging's actually really easy
[02:01] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: i'm just learning
[02:01] <lucas> depends on who is the maintainer in the debian version
[02:01] <raphink> lucas: not Tonio_ for sure
[02:02] <raphink> ;)
[02:02] <lucas> maybe he found a sponsor
[02:02] <crimsun_> 1) read REPORT; 2) look for -dropped.patch in the MoM directory; 3) if the bits in -dropped.patch have been subsumed, it's a sync, otherwise it's a by-hand merge
[02:02] <seth_k|lappy> crimsun_, in concept indeed, but it's so time-consuming to read the dropped patch and check files by hand
[02:02] <lucas> usually I only use the ubuntu patch
[02:03] <lucas> and see if the changes were integrated in debian
[02:04] <crimsun_> if you're ever confused, take the latest Debian revision and check what changes the last Ubuntu revision had. You can always revert to the Debian packaging and apply Ubuntu bits back part by part.
[02:05] <crimsun_> sometimes it's smarter to do that because MoM generates incorrect reports
[02:05] <crimsun_> particularly for the -0ubuntuX ones, since it sometimes gets confused with the base version (particularly if snapshot.d.o was down)
[02:05] <crimsun_> err, snapshot.d.n
[02:06] <crimsun_> another case (see tiber->new) is say, kguitar, which we shouldn't merge because a decision has to be made whether to continue with the Ubuntu packaging or to drop it in favor of Debian's
[02:06] <lucas> ok, for kmess, the two packages are totally different
[02:07] <lucas> since Antonio didn't propose his package to debian, somebody else packaged it
[02:07] <lucas> waste of time
[02:07] <crimsun_> similar situation for kguitar
[02:07] <lucas> raphink: if you know him, ask him to review debian's kmess and submit patches to the BTS to improve it
[02:07] <lucas> so everything he did is not lost
[02:08] <raphink> lucas: I don't think Tonio_ really wants to contribute to Debian
[02:08] <lucas> ubuntu will probably use debian's version
[02:08] <crimsun_> sometimes there's a compelling reason to keep the Ubuntu-specific version, like daniel's work with tilda
[02:09] <raphink> yes I guess lucas
[02:09] <raphink> which is why sometimes I wonder if REVU is really that useful
[02:09] <raphink> since there are many more DDs than ubuntu packagers
[02:09] <crimsun> revu is definitely helpful for _us_
[02:09] <lucas> I'd personally recommend to look for sponsors in Debian
[02:10] <raphink> mhm
[02:10] <lucas> Debian has probably a good KDE team which could easily sponsor KDE-related packages
[02:10] <lucas> I'm doing this on a regular basis for ruby packages
[02:11] <lucas> http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/docs/
[02:12] <raphink> I'm trying to understand how good this is to use REVu
[02:12] <raphink> rather than just getting packages in Debian
[02:13] <raphink> if packages added through REVU are to be put to trash
[02:13] <lucas> REVU is good to get comments/review
[02:13] <raphink> to be replaced by Debian ones eventually
[02:13] <lucas> the debian equivalent (debian-mentors) doesn't work as well as REVU
[02:13] <Tonio_> hum
[02:13] <raphink> yes but eventually, the Debian package, that didn't go through REVU, will replace the Ubuntu package that did go through it
[02:14] <raphink> so what's the use?
[02:14] <Tonio_> lucas, I can understand the need to report the packages to debian
[02:14] <Tonio_> but anyway, what the need and purpose of revu in that case ?
[02:14] <Tonio_> I mean, no need to package for ubuntu then
[02:14] <lucas> raphink: not if, once you have a perfect package thanks to REVU, you go find a sponsor in debian
[02:14] <Tonio_> let's go make mackages for debian directly...
[02:15] <lucas> Tonio_: I never advocated REVU
[02:15] <Tonio_> lucas: don't get me wrong, I don't mind if some or all of my packages are overrittent by debian ones
[02:15] <raphink> lucas: then, for the good health of Ubuntu, there should be a team of DD among the MOTUs, who volunteer to automatically sponsor packages from REVU to Debian
[02:15] <Tonio_> the only thing important to me is that applications are available on ubuntu repos
[02:15] <ajmitch> raphink: automatically sponsor?
[02:16] <Tonio_> that's the only important thing
[02:16] <LaserJock> I personally am not inclined to try to get a Debian sponsor for anything I do because I don't use Debian and am not terribly  fond of it
[02:16] <raphink> ajmitch: I mean some MOTUs are DDs, right?
[02:16] <Tonio_> I just wonder what is the purpose of revu then....
[02:16] <crimsun> we do have several DDs among us, but it's not right to expect them to be go-to guys
[02:16] <raphink> ajmitch: so could these take the NEW packages from REVU and sponsor them in Debian ?
[02:16] <ajmitch> raphink: that takes a fair bit of work, and also the maintainers have to care for their packages in debian
[02:16] <raphink> so Ubuntu packagers don't have to deal with getting their packages both in Ubuntu and Debian ?
[02:16] <ajmitch> there are very few of us that are DDs as well
[02:17] <ajmitch> yes they have to deal with it
[02:17] <ajmitch> it would never be a straight automatic process
[02:17] <lucas> raphink: lack of ressources in MOTU + Debian's requirements regarding package quality are much higher than ubuntu's
[02:17] <ajmitch> lucas: I prefer to keep ubuntu's package quality just as high
[02:17] <LaserJock> Why can't we Ubuntu people take care of our own packages? Why do we have to have Debian look after stuff we are willing to maintain?
[02:17] <Tonio_> if the goal is to have universe packages exactly like debian ones, and all work merged, it would be better to have a shared plateform with debian
[02:17] <Tonio_> and just work once, no ?
[02:17] <lucas> ajmitch: yes, but in reality, some packages who go through REVU are not as good as debian packages
[02:18] <ajmitch> lucas: I know, some slip through
[02:18] <ajmitch> and I don't like that
[02:18] <raphink> lucas: we also see many Debian packages that are not good ;)
[02:18] <raphink> ajmitch: so then we should try to get more MOTUs to be DDs
[02:18] <lucas> Tonio_: the goal of MOTU is to manage divergence
[02:19] <whiprush> raphink: are you the upstream deskbar-applet guy? Or am I mixing you up?
[02:19] <ajmitch> raphink: hah, good luck
[02:19] <raphink> you're mixing me up whiprush
[02:19] <ajmitch> raphink: there's about 2 MOTUs in NM at the moment
[02:19] <whiprush> k
[02:19] <ajmitch> they might be DDs in a year or so
[02:19] <raphink> ajmitch: see ? there's a pb here
[02:19] <raphink> Debian refuses to take more DDs easily
[02:19] <ajmitch> why?
[02:19] <raphink> we want to get as close to Debian as possible
[02:19] <ajmitch> I really don't feel like rehashing this tired argument again
[02:19] <raphink> but it only works one way
[02:19] <ajmitch> we seem to have it each month
[02:19] <raphink> so if we had stuff in Ubuntu
[02:20] <raphink> it doesn't get back
[02:20] <raphink> well i'll just like to understand
[02:20] <lucas> raphink: the whole problem is that Debian is doing a HUGE work
[02:20] <raphink> and understand if it's really worth it having new packages through REVU if they are to be replaced soon
[02:20] <lucas> that ubuntu can't do because ubuntu doesn't have the resources
[02:21] <lucas> some people think that ubuntu != debian
[02:21] <raphink> yes I understand that lucas
[02:21] <raphink> but reckon also that Debian hasn't been doing some work that ubuntu has been doing
[02:21] <lucas> that you can contribute to ubuntu without contributing to debian, and that's fine
[02:21] <raphink> otherwise Debian would be the user-friendly distro that Ubuntu is
[02:21] <raphink> lucas: no I agree that we have to contribute to Debian
[02:21] <raphink> I totally agree
[02:21] <Tonio_> lucas: I personnaly understand the need to contribute to debian
[02:22] <raphink> what I don't understand is the use of REVU in this case
[02:22] <raphink> is it not a waste of time to package new stuff
[02:22] <lucas> well, personally, I must admit I don't know
[02:22] <raphink> that are gonna be lost in merges soon?
[02:22] <lucas> except for Ubuntu-specific packages
[02:22] <lucas> and to get reviews
[02:22] <raphink> and why, instead, don't we make it easier to contribute to Debian directly?
[02:23] <tseng> hi ogra
[02:23] <lucas> raphink: contributing to debian is hard
[02:23] <raphink> we should then encourage packagers to do their work in Debian and merge it afterwards, no?
[02:23] <ogra> hey
[02:23] <raphink> lucas: that's the pb
[02:23] <lucas> look at the archives of the debian-mentors ML
[02:24] <lucas> lots of RFS (request for sponsor), few answers
[02:24] <LaserJock> raphink: I don't run Debian so I don't create packages for Debian
[02:24] <raphink> i don't want to contribute to Ubuntu with new packages, spend tens of hours on packages, and have my work replaced because "contribution from Debian is of higher quality"
[02:24] <raphink> supposedly
[02:24] <lucas> LaserJock: I thought it was about Free Software
[02:24] <LaserJock> raphink: I submit stuff to REVU because I want it in Ubuntu. I honestly don't care so much if it ends up in Debian
[02:25] <raphink> LaserJock: that's not the issue at all
[02:25] <Tonio_> I have seen many many debian packages that wouldn't been advocated on revu...
[02:25] <LaserJock> raphink: isn't it
[02:25] <raphink> I'm really happy if my work ends up in debian
[02:25] <lucas> Tonio_: have you filed bugs ? ;)
[02:25] <raphink> the issue that my work is not lost
[02:25] <LaserJock> I am to but I doubt it will happen for me
[02:25] <raphink> replaced by the dupplicate work of someone else in Debian
[02:25] <Tonio_> lucas, they are not buggy
[02:25] <raphink> who didn't even care that I did the work first
[02:25] <raphink> Debian can't deny the existence of Ubuntu anymore
[02:26] <Tonio_> they just leave files, leave modified content on binaries etc...
[02:26] <raphink> just as we check if packages exist in Debian already before packaging them
[02:26] <lucas> Tonio_: you can send wishlist bugs with a patch in the BTGS
[02:26] <lucas> BTS
[02:26] <raphink> why don't they check here before packaging?
[02:26] <Tonio_> lucas: I agree with you that point, I can, and shouuld
[02:26] <raphink> just recognizing we can package too
[02:26] <lucas> raphink: rule #1: it's hard to force a debian developer ;)
[02:27] <raphink> and not wasting manpower in duplicating work
[02:27] <Tonio_> my only question is, in that case why not closing revu, and try to build a common package submitting system with debian ?
[02:27] <lucas> Tonio_: buxy proposed that
[02:27] <Tonio_> merging would be necessary in that case
[02:27] <lucas> but nothing went out of the discussion I think
[02:27] <Tonio_> because technically merging is a waste of time
[02:27] <lucas> Tonio_: merging is necessary because of some choices ubuntu makes
[02:27] <raphink> no Tonio_, some packages need to be merged because debian and ubuntu don't have the same libs
[02:28] <lucas> for example python 2.4 instead of python 2.3
[02:28] <lucas> or modular xorg
[02:28] <raphink> but that shouldn't prevent to have a common REVU-like system
[02:28] <Tonio_> agree, yes
[02:28] <lucas> but I agree that unecessary divergence sucks
[02:28] <raphink> to check the quality of packages
[02:28] <raphink> quality assurance could be common
[02:28] <raphink> while having packages build on different libs
[02:29] <lucas> raphink: it already is to some point
[02:29] <raphink> open-source allows to not waste manpower in duplicating work
[02:29] <raphink> yet that's what happens with debian and ubuntu
[02:29] <lucas> not really
[02:29] <lucas> only with REVU ;)
[02:29] <raphink> well lucas
[02:29] <raphink> when I see a package added to Ubuntu through REVU
[02:29] <Tonio_> well, let's stop using revu, package for debian
[02:30] <lucas> more precisely: only with REVU packagers who don't seek a debian sponsor
[02:30] <raphink> when the packager spent 1month working on it
[02:30] <raphink> and eventually it gets replaced by a Debian package
[02:30] <Tonio_> and if things go well, we'll se our packages in ubuntu for dapper +3 ^^
[02:30] <raphink> whose maintainer didn't even notice there was a work done in ubuntu before
[02:30] <raphink> I call that a waste or manpower
[02:30] <lucas> Tonio_: upload a package today in Debian. It is in ubuntu tomorrow.
[02:30] <raphink> lucas: where is it written in the ubuntu doc that we ought to find a sponsor for Debian ?
[02:30] <Tonio_> lucas: I hope you're right
[02:30] <LaserJock> but how are we supposed to change Debian?
[02:30] <Tonio_> and I'm okay to make the test
[02:31] <LaserJock> I think REVU is great and I think it is very useful
[02:31] <LaserJock> if Debian wanted to use it it would be great
[02:31] <Tonio_> LaserJock: don't dream
[02:31] <lucas> Tonio_: checking right now ;)
[02:31] <raphink> where are we told how to get our packages in debian, if it's the way to go ?
[02:31] <raphink> and why are we told to use REVU if it's better to get a DD to sponsor our work ?
[02:32] <lucas> Tonio_: ok, maybe more than 1 day
[02:32] <raphink> lucas: the NEW queue in Debian is already more than 1 day ;)
[02:32] <LaserJock> cause it is faster to get things in Ubuntu through REVU and Debian sponsorship
[02:32] <lucas> if you upload a NEW package in Debian, it is reviewed by the ftp-master team (for license stuff, etc), which takes ~1 week
[02:32] <lucas> then, it gets in the NEW queue in Ubuntu
[02:33] <lucas> I don't know who manages it, but he seems to be in holidays :-)
[02:33] <LaserJock> elmo I think
[02:33] <lucas> if he takes as long as Debian, it takes 2 weeks
[02:33] <Tonio_> okay, so let's close revu and resubmit everything to debian then.....
[02:33] <LaserJock> it only takes 2 weeks to get a package in Debian?
[02:34] <LaserJock> Tonio_: no way, I like REVU
[02:34] <LaserJock> but that is just me I guess
[02:34] <Tonio_> hum
[02:34] <Tonio_> debian's organisation is a total mess
[02:34] <lucas> it takes one week between you sponsor upload and the package shows up in debian unstable
[02:34] <Tonio_> and that's to stay polite
[02:34] <lucas> Tonio_: no, it works very well
[02:35] <crimsun> I think Debian's situation has vastly improved since pre-Warty
[02:35] <Tonio_> lucas, that's not incompatible :)
[02:35] <LaserJock> how long does it take to get a sponsor in Debian
[02:35] <Tonio_> a mess can be working fine, look at postfix ^_^
[02:35] <lucas> LaserJock: find one who is vaguely interested in your packages
[02:35] <lucas> your packages are about science. look for people packaging similar stuff.
[02:36] <lucas> ask them to review your packages
[02:36] <LaserJock> well, they are few and far between
[02:36] <LaserJock> that is what I am saying
[02:36] <seth_k|lappy> LaserJock, would you have time to do a quick MOTU review for me, or are you busy?
[02:36] <LaserJock> seth_k|lappy: I'm not a MOTU :(
[02:36] <lucas> LaserJock: or find a researcher who is a debian packager :-)
[02:37] <lucas> (this is easy)
[02:37] <seth_k|lappy> LaserJock, oops, sorry. Thought you were
[02:37] <LaserJock> well, that is why I am here, because I can't find very many of those
[02:37] <seth_k|lappy> LaserJock, erm... you are in the team on Launchpad, guess that's why I thought you were :)
[02:37] <lucas> buxy: ping
[02:38] <lucas> buxy: interesting discussion for you here, wake up ;)
[02:38] <LaserJock> I package for Ubuntu because I run Ubuntu and I don't want to run Debian as well just to get my packages in Ubuntu
[02:38] <lucas> LaserJock: you can just use a chroot
[02:38] <rraphink> if I understand well though
[02:38] <LaserJock> seth_k|lappy: yeah on launchpad motu != MOTU
[02:38] <lucas> you don't need to use debian to find a sponsor
[02:39] <Kyral> Yah I need to join the LP Team lol
[02:39] <lucas> also, DDs are not idiots, they understand what ubuntu is about
[02:39] <rraphink> we basically better tell packagers that if they want to add to Ubuntu the better way
[02:39] <LaserJock> lucas: but then I have a lot more work. I just want to get my packages in Ubuntu. I know that it somwhat selfish but I just don't have time for 2 distros
[02:39] <rraphink> while keep using Ubuntu
[02:40] <lucas> LaserJock: it will take time to find a sponsor.
[02:40] <lucas> but then, he will provide useful comments
[02:40] <rraphink> also considering the way many DDs still consider Ubuntu
[02:40] <rraphink> i'm sure many packagers will be happy to do so ;)
[02:40] <lucas> and after a few packages, he will trust you
[02:40] <lucas> it doesn't take more time
[02:41] <lucas> rraphink: most DDs have a very good opinion of Ubuntu
[02:41] <LaserJock> lucas: in the scientific area I think it takes much longer to get a package in Debian than in Ubuntu
[02:41] <psusi> damnit... how do you get emacs to insert a hart tab again rather than spaces to the default indent level?
[02:41] <Kyral> guys
[02:41] <Kyral> new UniverseCanditate
[02:41] <Kyral> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=112176
[02:42] <lucas> LaserJock: maybe an interesting project to start would be to create a list of DDs willing to sponsor packages that went through REVU
[02:42] <ajmitch> Kyral: that's great, have you added it to UniverseCandidates?
[02:42] <lucas> since this mean that they have reach a minimum quality level
[02:42] <Kyral> no, someone just pinged me lol
[02:42] <Kyral> and I wasn't looking at you for that
[02:42] <Kyral> I was looking at you for lucas thing
[02:42] <ajmitch> Kyral: perhaps you could just reply to the forums telling them where to make suggestions?
[02:43] <rraphink> [02:40]  * rraphink thinks he wants to go through the NM process and create a MOTUDDSponsor team
[02:43] <rraphink> [02:40]  <rraphink> to get Ubuntu packages into Debian before they are dumped
[02:43] <rraphink> [02:41]  * rraphink has seen what it is to depend on a sponsor at a Debian conf and doesn' tlike the idea of it though
[02:43] <Kyral> The Forums Community knows I am connected to MOTU
[02:43] <ajmitch> rraphink: utnubu team
[02:43] <lucas> Kyral: I mean DDs which aren't already ubuntu devs
[02:43] <ajmitch> Kyral: that's wonderful & all, but they still need to be told how to make requests properly
[02:43] <Kyral> goodpoint
[02:44] <ajmitch> so many suggestions there, none of which the developers see
[02:44] <lucas> raphink: being sponsored can be very cool
[02:44] <lucas> for example, I'm part of a ruby team in debian
[02:44] <lucas> when I need one of my packages to be sponsored
[02:44] <rraphink> ajmitch: does utnubu take packages straight from REVU to get them in debian before they are packaged ?
[02:44] <rraphink> or at least inform DDs of the existence of packages in Ubuntu
[02:44] <lucas> I just ping one of the members
[02:44] <lucas> of the team
[02:44] <rraphink> before they begin to duplicate the work
[02:44] <Kyral> Personally I'll wait until 1) I actually USE Debian and 2) Until I am MOTU
[02:44] <lucas> I already got sponsored by 3 different DDs like that, and I never waited
[02:45] <rraphink> Kyral: being a MOTU won't give you any role on consideration in Debian
[02:45] <crimsun> nor should it, really
[02:45] <crimsun> (unless you've got packages in Debian)
[02:45] <LaserJock> I just don't see why we should have to learn two different distros to help Ubuntu out
[02:45] <lucas> rraphink: if you package something in REVU, the minimum contribution to Debian you should do is file an ITP
[02:45] <ajmitch> rraphink: they take packages from ubuntu repositories, not REVU
[02:45] <lucas> (intent to package)
[02:46] <Kyral> rraphink: I mean by then I should have MUCH more experianced
[02:46] <ajmitch> lucas: no, minimum should be RFP
[02:46] <rraphink> lucas: then let's document ITPs in the ubuntu doc
[02:46] <rraphink> never seen anything about ITPs in it
[02:46] <ajmitch> considering that this was agreed upon about 4 months ago
[02:46] <ajmitch> but whatever
[02:46] <LaserJock> it seems to me that there will always be duplication of work to some degree as long as the distros are seperate
[02:46] <Kyral> Wait can we package Public Domain packages?
[02:46] <ajmitch> Kyral: as long as you know it's public domain
[02:47] <Kyral> Yah sf page says its PD :D
[02:47] <ajmitch> then package it
[02:47] <Kyral> I will
[02:47] <Kyral> when my computer stops acting up
[02:47] <Tonio_> rraphink: totaly agree....
[02:48] <rraphink> Kyral: so having much more experience will give you ... what?
[02:48] <rraphink> Kyral: Ian Murdock chose to apply for NM instead of accepting to be a DD as a matter of fact
[02:48] <Kyral> rraphink: Knowing what I'm doing? Making less stupid mistakes?
[02:48] <rraphink> I think he's still waiting to be accepted
[02:48] <Kyral> NM?
[02:48] <Tonio_> ubuntu documentations don't refer at any moment to what to do with merging, ITP or any kind of debian contribution
[02:48] <rraphink> ;)
[02:48] <rraphink> Kyral: NM = New Maintainer
[02:48] <Kyral> ah
[02:48] <Kyral> whats the difference?
[02:48] <rraphink> Kyral: NM is to get to be a DD
[02:48] <rraphink> meaning he's not officially a DD yet
[02:48] <Kyral> ah
[02:49] <rraphink> although he's the creator of Debian
[02:49] <Kyral> so its like to become MOTU, you need to be a Member
[02:49] <rraphink> kind of
[02:49] <Kyral> To become a DD you need to be a NM
[02:49] <rraphink> well you can go the NM way to be a DD
[02:49] <rraphink> this is a long way
[02:50] <rraphink> at last!
[02:50] <lucas> you can be Maintainer of packages without being DD
[02:50] <lucas> DD means write-access to the archive, basically
[02:50] <raphink> you get tested on your knownledge of licenses, techniques, etc.
[02:50] <lucas> if somebody writes your packages for you, no problem :-)
[02:50] <lucas> that's what sponsors are for
[02:50] <Kyral> Yah, I figure if I'm MOTU I'll know that stuff better than I do now
[02:51] <raphink> Kyral: then hang out in #debian-mentors instead ;)
[02:51] <raphink> this is the equivalent of #ubuntu-motu
[02:51] <Kyral> lol okay
[02:51] <Kyral> less likely to be shot?
[02:51] <raphink> haha
[02:52] <Kyral> Seriously some people might remember me
[02:52] <raphink> so what ?
[02:52] <raphink> i'm still in Debian
[02:52] <raphink> leading a project on alioth
[02:52] <raphink> and that's fine
[02:52] <Kyral> one of the guys in #ubuntuforums was piss drunk one night and made such a mess in #debian that one of the guys came in saying he'd go to lilo
[02:52] <raphink> except I've got to have all my work sponsored
[02:52] <raphink> by a DD
[02:52] <Kyral> I went into #debian and apologized for him
[02:56] <lucas> hey, another important point in favor of seeking a sponsor in debian
[02:56] <lucas> imagine you get integrated into the debian kde team
[02:56] <Kyral> Gak! One of you guys has to register me to the MOTU LP Team
[02:56] <lucas> you get to know all debian kde maintainers much better
[02:57] <lucas> so it's much easier to do your MOTUKDE work
[02:57] <raphink> you're a MOTU Kyral ?
[02:57] <raphink> ;)
[02:57] <Kyral> no, but neither is LJ :P
[02:57] <raphink> lol
[02:58] <raphink> pff
[02:59] <Kyral> Hey cool! It shows up that I am the maintainer for EasyChem on my LP profile
[02:59] <raphink> lucas: that implies that Ubuntu contributor must be told once and for all that they should contribute to Debian directly, but not expect to be recognized by DDs
[02:59] <raphink> yep Kyral :)
[02:59] <raphink> and you can access the package options from there
[02:59] <raphink> like translation
[02:59] <raphink> if available
[03:00] <Kyral> I'm not upstream so I don't tink I'm authorized to translate it
[03:00] <lucas> raphink: why "not expect to be recognized by DDs" ?
[03:00] <raphink> because I know many DDs who don't like Ubuntu
[03:00] <lucas> ajmitch: you have a pointer to the discussion about RFP being the minimum level to expect ?
[03:01] <lucas> raphink: give out names.
[03:01] <lucas> I don't know any.
[03:01] <raphink> I don't have names
[03:01] <raphink> lucas: are you a DD yourself?
[03:01] <lucas> no, I'm stuck in NM :)
[03:02] <raphink> lucas: since ?
[03:02] <lucas> mmh
[03:02] <lucas> ~4 months
[03:02] <raphink> hehe
[03:02] <raphink> what can non-DDs do in Debian without needing someone to oversee their work?
[03:02] <lucas> but it's not a problem
[03:03] <lucas> everything that has to do with bugs
[03:03] <lucas> for example
[03:03] <Tonio_> lucas: maybe you know a patient and sympathetic DD
[03:03] <Tonio_> but my personnal experience with debian's commmunity is a disaster
[03:03] <lucas> Tonio_: I know a lot of them ;)
[03:04] <lucas> ok, so maybe it's true it would be a good thing to start a list of DDs willing to sponsor packages from Ubuntu
[03:04] <Tonio_> if you want my point of view, most of them are pretentious assholes....
[03:04] <Riddell> isn't that what utnubu is?
[03:04] <Tonio_> but well, I'm not objective
[03:04] <raphink> lucas: utnubu, as ajmitch pointed
[03:04] <lucas> Riddell: utnubu is quite dead I think
[03:04] <raphink> Riddell: the point is that they're not numerous enough then
[03:04] <Riddell> hmm
[03:04] <lucas> and it doesn't work the good way
[03:05] <raphink> or not active enough
[03:05] <raphink> let us just not waste time and work
[03:05] <lucas> Riddell: basically, they generate lists of packages, and select some of them
[03:05] <raphink> we've got apps that exist in Ubuntu and not in Debian yet
[03:05] <raphink> if we don't get them in Debian, two things will happen
[03:05] <raphink> 1) Debian is missing them in a way, which is a waste for it
[03:05] <lucas> it would probably be more interesting if REVU packagers could go chat with them
[03:06] <raphink> 2) Debian will package them one day, and waste that time spent for this work in ubuntu
[03:07] <raphink> shall it be added to the PackagingTips that non-ubuntu-specific packages should be done with an ITP ?
[03:07] <ajmitch> no
[03:07] <Tonio_> that's why I would suggest a unique package submitting plateform
[03:07] <Riddell> ajmitch: why not?
[03:07] <raphink> so _at least_ debian packagers don't begin to do it on their side
[03:07] <lucas> ajmitch: you have a pointer to the discussion about RFP being the minimum level to expect ?
[03:07] <ajmitch> Riddell: because an ITP says that the person will maintain it in Debian
[03:07] <raphink> hmmm
[03:07] <ajmitch> lucas: I had one, you can probably find it on google
[03:08] <Riddell> ajmitch: you can still post to wnpp saying it's packaged, please someone put it in debian
[03:08] <ajmitch> Riddell: that's an RFP
[03:08] <raphink> can someone expand the abbrev a bit ?
[03:08] <Riddell> yeah, they're all acronymns
[03:08] <lucas> ajmitch: I understand RFP as "it's not packaged, please package and maintain it for me"
[03:08] <raphink> for non-debian guys
[03:08] <ajmitch> request for package, intent to package
[03:08] <lucas> http://www.us.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
[03:08] <ajmitch> lucas: not necessarily, we've filed RFPs that refer to the ubuntu packages before
[03:09] <raphink> lucas: yes, and ITP as `I'm working on a package, please don't duplicate my work'
[03:09] <lucas> but does an ITP imply that you are a DD ?
[03:09] <ajmitch> no
[03:09] <lucas> we could leave REVU packagers the choice
[03:09] <raphink> what does it cost to file an ITP then?
[03:09] <ajmitch> an ITP implies that you will maintain it, whether you're a DD or not
[03:09] <lucas> RFP is they prefer to let sbody else maintain
[03:10] <lucas> ITP if they want to find a sponsor
[03:10] <Tonio_> why couldn't it be automatic ?
[03:10] <raphink> we could at least _inform_ Ubuntu packages of the existence of WNPP and its options
[03:10] <Tonio_> REVU is able to make the difference between a new or updated package....
[03:10] <Tonio_> that's typically the kind of thing that could be automated between REVU and sponsor.debian.net
[03:11] <psusi> I'm updating a package in universe that I believe is synced from debian... that means rather than bump the -11 to -12, I want to make it -11-0ubuntu1 right?
[03:11] <Tonio_> in the plateform level
[03:11] <Tonio_> and not to be done by every packager for every package
[03:11] <lucas> psusi: -11ubuntu1
[03:11] <psusi> ahh... ok
[03:12] <Tonio_> to me, in a logic and general way
[03:12] <Tonio_> the link between two trees has to be done at the top of them once
[03:12] <Tonio_> and not between all branches....
[03:12] <lucas> Tonio_: then what ?
[03:12] <lucas> packages from REVU get to mentors.
[03:12] <lucas> and they sleep there.
[03:13] <raphink> hehe
[03:13] <lucas> looking for a sponsor has to be a human process
[03:13] <Tonio_> that's why cooperation between ubuntu and debian has to be defined at the top level
[03:13] <raphink> lucas: so you need to know DDs personnaly
[03:13] <Tonio_> and the conclusion could be a common working plateform
[03:13] <Tonio_> something like that
[03:14] <Tonio_> becasue actually, contribute to debian is long, diffcult and not very convenient
[03:14] <Tonio_> if contributing to ubuntu means contributing to ubuntu + contributing to debian....
[03:14] <Tonio_> well, it becomes heavy
[03:14] <lucas> raphink: apt-cache show <package>
[03:14] <lucas> and you start to know DDs ;)
[03:15] <raphink> lol
[03:15] <raphink> well I know DDs already
[03:15] <raphink> but as Tonio_ says
[03:15] <raphink> really
[03:15] <raphink> it's a bit weird that ubuntu contributors, who are less numerous than debian ones
[03:15] <raphink> have to work on both debian and ubuntu
[03:15] <raphink> while debian ones don't have to worry about debian
[03:15] <raphink> although historically it's totally logical I reckon
[03:16] <Tonio_> well, the problem is that ubuntu contributors are not thowsands
[03:16] <Kyral> hmm...the auto-backport thingy got EasyChem lol
[03:16] <lucas> I'll write MOTUContributingToDebian and discuss the "friendly DD list" with buxy tomorrow
[03:16] <Tonio_> but ubuntu has grown incredibly in a very short time
[03:16] <Tonio_> more people are using ubuntu than debian actually, by far....
[03:17] <lucas> Tonio_: I don't think so
[03:17] <raphink> Kyral: where do you see that?
[03:17] <lucas> for example, there are far less popularity-contest results for ubuntu
[03:17] <Tonio_> lucas, I personnaly don't know any debian user that hasn't or isn't about to switch....
[03:17] <Kyral> raphink: I got an email
[03:17] <raphink> Kyral: nice :)
[03:18] <lucas> Tonio_: I know lots of them
[03:18] <raphink> few DDs are about to switch
[03:18] <raphink> but many users are
[03:18] <Tonio_> raphink: how many are DD compared to users ?
[03:18] <Tonio_> 0.01% ?
[03:18] <raphink> I doubt so
[03:18] <raphink> lol
[03:19] <raphink> there are about 1000 DDs
[03:19] <raphink> that would make a bit too many Debian users imo
[03:19] <raphink> ;)
[03:19] <LaserJock> ok, so here's my problem. It is hard enough for me to keep track of where to go and what to do for Ubuntu but if I also have to learn Debians system and MLs then I just think I will be swamped
[03:19] <raphink> I doubt there's 10M debian users ;)
[03:19] <Tonio_> the problem is that ubuntu can't ignore debian
[03:19] <Tonio_> for historic, technicall and ethic reasons
[03:20] <raphink> Debian can less and less ignore Ubuntu
[03:20] <Tonio_> BUT, debian cannot ignore ubuntu longer to me....
[03:20] <raphink> but DDs can choose to ignore Ubuntu
[03:20] <Tonio_> and maybe it is time to have a real work sharing program
[03:20] <raphink> whereas Ubuntu devs cannot really choose to ignore Dbian
[03:20] <LaserJock> I don't think Ubuntu ignores Debian
[03:20] <raphink> huhu
[03:20] <Tonio_> and not on ly ubuntu contributors having to asslick debian DDs....
[03:20] <Tonio_> excuse my language, but that's my feeling.....
[03:21] <LaserJock> Tonio_: what would a work sharing program consist of
[03:21] <lucas> la plupart des DDs ont une excellente opinion d'Ubuntu
[03:21] <Tonio_> LaserJock: to me ?
[03:21] <LaserJock> sure
[03:21] <Tonio_> a common package submitting plateform
[03:21] <Tonio_> to start
[03:22] <lucas> le coup des DDs qui n'aiment pas Ubuntu n'existe que sur linuxfr :-)
[03:22] <raphink> lucas: mais un MOTU restera toujours moins qu'un DD pour un DD
[03:22] <Tonio_> no need to have two plateforms if the common goal is to have a perfect merging
[03:22] <raphink> the goal is not to have a perferct merging Tonio_
[03:22] <Tonio_> lucas: je dis aps le contraire
[03:22] <lucas> raphink: je sais pas s'il y a vraiment ce sentiment de scurit
[03:23] <lucas> de supriorit
[03:23] <lucas> pardon
[03:23] <lucas> peut-tre un peu, et alors ?
[03:23] <raphink> parfois on se demande ;)
[03:23] <Tonio_> mais je pense aussi que hormis si on a de bonnes connaissances dans le milieu debian, on se fait facilement chier dessus, si je peux me permettre l'expression
[03:23] <Tonio_> debian, c'est trs "systeme de caste"
[03:23] <LaserJock> it just seems to me that there is enough differnce between the distros that having a commmon platform wouldn't be fesible
[03:23] <lucas> Debian est la distrib GNU/Linux qui apporte le plus au libre, depuis plus de 10 ans
[03:23] <Ubugtu> An error has occurred.
[03:23] <Kyral> lol
[03:23] <Tonio_> et la norme c'est de pter du haut du dos, dans bien des cas...
[03:23] <LaserJock> Ubugtu need one too Kyral
[03:23] <lucas> bof
[03:23] <raphink> lol
[03:24] <raphink> Kyral: kopete has an automatic translation module
[03:24] <raphink> it's pretty slow though
[03:24] <raphink> obviously
[03:24] <lucas> Debian is the GNU/Linux distribution which brought the most to Free Software, for more than 10 years now
[03:24] <Kyral> raphink: yah
[03:24] <seth_k|lappy> or you could just learn french, like I did :P
[03:24] <lucas> seriously, what did Ubuntu bring to free software ?
[03:24] <Tonio_> lucas: c'est pas parcequ'ils font des trucs ethiquement bien que tout est rose.... les guguerres de pouvoir dans le libre ca existe....
[03:24] <raphink> agreed lucas
[03:25] <LaserJock> I just don't see why we need to worry about Debian so much, if they want our stuff they can get it
[03:25] <raphink> lucas: users ?
[03:25] <Tonio_> lucas: l'humilit ? ^_^
[03:25] <raphink> LaserJock: it's not the issue
[03:25] <lucas> LaserJock: what do you prefer:
[03:25] <raphink> LaserJock: I don't mind my work ending up in Debian, on the contrary
[03:25] <lucas> 1) get you packages overriden by those of a debian developer
[03:26] <raphink> LaserJock: but I'd rather it not be duplicate and replaced taht's all
[03:26] <lucas> 2) maintain your packages for both ubuntu and debian
[03:26] <lucas> if you do (2), you get a lot of potentially new users
[03:26] <lucas> which all file very good bug reports, make patchs, etc
[03:26] <LaserJock> I just don't think 2 is an option for me
[03:26] <raphink> lucas: you forgot 'and get those of a debian dev merged in ubuntu' in 1)
[03:27] <lucas> LaserJock: why ?
[03:27] <LaserJock> lucas: because I don't have time for it
[03:27] <raphink> much much work lucas
[03:27] <lucas> it doesn't cost much time
[03:27] <raphink> you don't measure the time it takes to understand the Debian system when you're used to it
[03:27] <raphink> just as it seems very easy to me to package
[03:27] <raphink> but i remember having spent days learning it
[03:28] <raphink> and having headaches
[03:28] <raphink> with my mentor explaining me things for hours
[03:28] <LaserJock> lucas: but I really don't know anything about Debian so I would have to go and figure out the way the do things
[03:28] <LaserJock> I think have to keep track of 2 distros instead of the one I am using
[03:29] <raphink> lucas: once you know both Debian and Ubuntu ways, it all seems logical and easy
[03:29] <LaserJock> s/think/then/
[03:29] <lucas> raphink: I don't think it is so different from ubuntu
[03:29] <raphink> but learning them is a long process
[03:29] <Tonio_> lucas third potential solution :
[03:29] <Tonio_> work for debian only and let ubuntu sync....
[03:29] <raphink> lucas: once you know both, it's not very differnt, that's what I say
[03:29] <raphink> Tonio_: yeah work for Debian only and use Ubuntu
[03:29] <raphink> ;=)
[03:29] <raphink> ;)
[03:29] <Tonio_> the point is that I can admin 1), 3), but 2) is to me a waste of time
[03:29] <raphink> the `Do what I say not what I do' solution
[03:30] <SEJeff> someone please correct me if I'm wrong... Debian is about being rock solid and Ubuntu is about being polished ontop of a rock solid core
[03:30] <LaserJock> here is my solution: package for Ubuntu and then if I get stuff in try to make sure that Debian knows about it (ML probably)
[03:30] <raphink> SEJeff: I agree
[03:30] <LaserJock> I don't totally agree but again I don't know a whole lot about Debian
[03:30] <raphink> now the issue SEJeff is why would it be hard for the polisher devs to improve the rock ?
[03:30] <SEJeff> Package it for Ubuntu and try to get a DD to rebuild it for debian
[03:31] <SEJeff> raphink, grep the debian changelogs with grep -i "Ubuntu"
[03:31] <raphink> SEJeff: well that's option 2)
[03:31] <psusi> that's what I plan on doing... fixing it for ubuntu, then letting the debian maintainer know so he can merge in the changes when he chooses
[03:31] <raphink> getting it in Debian through a sponsor
[03:31] <SEJeff> I guarantee you will find a TON of ubunut changes in debian
[03:31] <SEJeff> Like the entire x.org packages
[03:31] <Tonio_> hum
[03:31] <SEJeff> Those are more or less straight from Ubuntu
[03:31] <Tonio_> the problem in fact, is confidence
[03:31] <Tonio_> ubuntu syncs debian
[03:32] <Tonio_> why couldn't be the sync bidirectionnal ?
[03:32] <LaserJock> because DD don't want that sometimes?
[03:32] <raphink> yeah it's not as automatic the other way
[03:32] <raphink> because many DDs son't mind
[03:32] <Tonio_> because DDs would be okay to see a package comming from ubuntu without beeing checked right ?
[03:32] <raphink> don't
[03:32] <raphink> Tonio_: we check Debian packages
[03:33] <raphink> so it's fair they'd check ours
[03:33] <Tonio_> not all.......
[03:33] <raphink> but it would be nice if they did
[03:33] <raphink> actually
[03:33] <raphink> and i think still many packages added to Ubuntu are not synced in debian
[03:33] <raphink> they are repackaged
[03:33] <raphink> instead
[03:33] <SEJeff> There is a debian project get ubuntu changes back into debian. I can't remember the name though
[03:33] <Tonio_> why isn't that possible to automate revu to post a RFP as soon as a new package is uploaded ?
[03:33] <Tonio_> is that so difficult to implement ?
[03:34] <raphink> that obviously get us back to filing ITPs imo
[03:34] <raphink> if we filed ITPs
[03:34] <Tonio_> I don't think so
[03:34] <raphink> then the work wouldn't be done twice
[03:34] <raphink> SEJeff: utnubu
[03:34] <raphink> but there are 6 devs in it
[03:34] <LaserJock> but doesn't that mean we intend to package/maintain for Debian as well
[03:34] <Tonio_> raphink: my question is, why couldn't it be autopmatic ?
[03:34] <SEJeff> raphink, yes, thanks
[03:34] <raphink> can 6 devs do such a huge work?
[03:34] <Tonio_> why should we get a sponsor, then blabla, blabla, and waste time on that ?
[03:34] <lucas> LaserJock: you know about http://lists.debian.org/debian-science/ ?
[03:35] <SEJeff> raphink, if they are good.
[03:35] <Tonio_> imagin you have two databases
[03:35] <Tonio_> what would you do ?
[03:35] <raphink> LaserJock: ubuntu is nothing without debian, it's only fair we give back... but i wish we had more means to do it
[03:35] <lucas> you could subscribe, describe your packages, and ask for a sponsor
[03:35] <Tonio_> implement a sync script that runs in a cron
[03:35] <SEJeff> raphink, Look what Federico, Mattias, Behad, and 2 or three others are doing for gnome
[03:35] <Tonio_> of tell your users to do everything twice ?
[03:35] <lucas> Tonio_: you are dreaming
[03:35] <LaserJock> lucas: yes that is the only Debian list I am on. If I do a package for Ubuntu I will mail the debian-science list to tell them it is Ubuntu
[03:35] <Tonio_> where is the logic there ?
[03:35] <SEJeff> raphink, granted, they are all amazing developers... but 6 devs can do a lot if they are skilled
[03:35] <LaserJock> but I will not package it for Debian
[03:36] <Tonio_> lucas, just auto posting a RTP isn't a dream
[03:36] <lucas> the kind of verification debian makes for their maintainers and their packages has currently nothing in common with what ubuntu does
[03:36] <Tonio_> it is something that could be implemented on REVU
[03:36] <Tonio_> once a package is uploaded by a motu, a RTP is sent automatically
[03:36] <Tonio_> where is the dream there ?
[03:36] <lucas> LaserJock: you could learn a lot by packaging for debian too
[03:36] <LaserJock> lucas: sure but I don't have time for that
[03:37] <Tonio_> the same that what we are asked to do, but automatically.....
[03:37] <LaserJock> lucas: I am a chemist not a programmer or it guy
[03:37] <lucas> ah ok I thought you were interested in learning stuff
[03:37] <lucas> it is RFP
[03:37] <LaserJock> lucas: I am but I only have time to devote to learning 1 distro
[03:37] <LaserJock> lucas: and the distro I have chosen is Ubuntu not Debian
[03:37] <lucas> and Debian probably doesn't want to get spammed by some RFPs about packages which aren't even lintian-clean
[03:38] <Tonio_> lucas: RFP sorry
[03:38] <LaserJock> lucas: I am not against Debian but I just can't be working on 2 different distros
[03:38] <Tonio_> lucas: well, if every ubuntu contributor is posting a RFP, the rsult is exactly the same....
[03:39] <Tonio_> if it is automatically done and ONLY when the package is approved, you will certainly have less RFPs sent...
[03:39] <lucas> LaserJock: packaging for debian too will multiply the time you need by no more than 1.1
[03:39] <lucas> you should at least discuss this on debian-science
[03:39] <LaserJock> what if there was a debian ML that gets email from Ubuntu
[03:39] <LaserJock> every time we add a new package
[03:39] <Kyral> MOTUScience should interact with DebianScience
[03:39] <LaserJock> Kyral: I agree
[03:39] <Kyral> lucas: what is the channel? I'm gonna drop in
[03:40] <LaserJock> Kyral: but to what extent?
[03:40] <lucas> Kyral: I'm not sure if they have a channel
[03:40] <lucas> they have a mailing list
[03:40] <Kyral> hmm
[03:40] <lucas> LaserJock: regarding syncs and merges, do you have a lot of merges in science packages ?
[03:40] <lucas> or mostly syncs ?
[03:41] <lucas> by working together with debian-science, you could help get more autosyncs
[03:41] <lucas> and much less painfull merges
[03:41] <LaserJock> lucas: hmm, hard to say. I am actually hoping to get a lot more -0ubuntu1 packages
[03:41] <LaserJock> because Debian is just too slow
[03:42] <lucas> that's so wrong
[03:42] <LaserJock> For science the problem is that it is easier to package for Ubuntu than it is for Debian and scientists don't have a lot of time to become DDs
[03:42] <lucas> you don't have to be a DD to get sponsored
[03:43] <lucas> at least try to get sponsored
[03:43] <lucas> and I can help you package for debian
[03:43] <LaserJock> but it is easier to use REVU
[03:43] <lucas> if you need it
[03:43] <lucas> you can use REVU for reviews and then get sponsored
[03:43] <lucas> this isn't incompatible
[03:43] <LaserJock> lucas: the problem is not so much learning to package as learning the social structure, etc.
[03:44] <lucas> you don't have to learn it
[03:44] <lucas> you'll have to subscribe to debian-devel-announce, and that's all.
[03:44] <raphink> thinking of it now
[03:44] <Kyral> hmmm
[03:44] <raphink> I think using REVU to get good quality packages and then getting them sponsored
[03:44] <Tonio_> lucas, and another question
[03:44] <Tonio_> what do you do with the rosetta kde patch ?
[03:45] <Kyral> I supposed that I should just drop into #debian and ask
[03:45] <lucas> please at least mail debian-science to ask if somebody want to sponsor you
[03:45] <raphink> can get DDs to appreciate the work done in REVU with tim
[03:45] <raphink> time
[03:45] <raphink> and recognize that packages that come from REVU are good technically
[03:45] <LaserJock> I feel like the best way to go is to package for Ubuntu and notify the debian-science ML.
[03:45] <Tonio_> that means the package submitted to debian has to be different
[03:45] <raphink> and trust then more and more
[03:45] <raphink> them
[03:45] <Tonio_> first patch deleted, all patched renumbered, changelog updated etc.....
[03:46] <LaserJock> but I don't think reporting a ITP is something I should do
[03:46] <raphink> lucas: how do you measure the amount of users of a package?
[03:46] <LaserJock> lucas: just because there aren't a lot of useres doesn't mean it's not important
[03:46] <lucas> popcon.ubuntu.com
[03:46] <lucas> LaserJock: if it's important, it'll be easy to find a sponsor in debian.
[03:46] <LaserJock> lucas: that is scewed toward a certain population
[03:46] <Tonio_> popularity doesn't mean quality......
[03:47] <raphink> lucas: this is only for breezy, isn't it,
[03:47] <raphink> ?
[03:47] <Kyral> I'll email the Debian-Science list next week about EasyChem
[03:47] <LaserJock> lucas: but I know that the Debian people are already having a problem with getting sponsors, I just don't think it's going to be terribly easy for me
[03:47] <lucas> raphink: no I mean in the future
[03:47] <LaserJock> but I will certainly try
[03:47] <raphink> lucas: ok
[03:48] <raphink> :(
[03:48] <lucas> raphink: find a sponsor, it's easier to find them in debian
[03:48] <LaserJock> popcon only gives result for people who turn it on, which is not Joe User
[03:48] <lucas> also, you get to appear in debian-weekly-news
[03:48] <lucas> you'd be surprised to learn how many people worldwide read dwn
[03:49] <Kyral> LaserJock: I'll email the Debian Science list soon
[03:49] <raphink> lucas: i have a project on alioth, and at least two DDs in it, one of which was my first mentor. So I don't need to search long to find sponsors. I still think there's things to do to improve this matter of fact for all packagers of Ubuntu.
[03:49] <LaserJock> Kyral: good, I need to tell them about MOTUScience although I think azeem has talked to them already
[03:49] <raphink> lucas: i know that, already appeared in dwn ;)
[03:49] <Kyral> LaserJock: well I am the Maintainer ;D
[03:51] <marcin`> hi all
[03:51] <raphink> lucas: and when I happened to appear in dwn, I was amazed at least by the number of languages in which it was translated, in such a short time.
[03:51] <marcin`> sorry to interrupt - but I'm reading whis channel for few minutes...
[03:51] <raphink> marcin`: yes,
[03:51] <marcin`> and what are you guys talking about?
[03:51] <LaserJock> but the problem with science packages is that it is easier for scientists to contribute to Ubuntu than to Debian I think
[03:51] <marcin`> what is with 'sponsor' 'mentor' DD?
[03:52] <Kyral> raphink: when I email how should I be?
[03:52] <Kyral> like polite?
[03:52] <raphink> marcin`: DD = Debian Developer
[03:52] <raphink> Kyral: when you email who?
[03:52] <Kyral> the Debian Science list
[03:52] <lucas> ok, I'm going to bed now
[03:52] <raphink> marcin`: a mentor is someone who teaches you how to package
[03:52] <Kyral> oh, polite means like UBER polite
[03:52] <lucas> Tonio_, raphink: what are you doing for a living ? student ?
[03:52] <LaserJock> scientist are not as likely to become DDs but in Ubuntu you can just but something on REVU
[03:52] <raphink> marcin`: and a sponsor is a DD who can get your package into Debian
[03:53] <raphink> lucas: nope, chomeur pour l'instant
[03:53] <Tonio_> lucas: I'm system administrator
[03:53] <raphink> marcin`: does that help?
[03:53] <marcin`> raphink: so I can think about sponsor only if I got new package that is not available in debian already?
[03:53] <Tonio_> with a speciallity on ldap and MTAs
[03:53] <raphink> marcin`: you want to sponsor a package when it's not in Debian yet
[03:54] <raphink> yes
[03:54] <marcin`> raphink: hmm yes...
[03:54] <raphink> marcin`: if you have a new package that is not in Debian yet, it's a good idea to try to find a sponsor to get it in Debian
[03:54] <marcin`> raphink: I just thought that 'sponsor' means something different...
[03:54] <lucas> Tonio_: ok
[03:54] <raphink> otherwise, sooner or later, your Ubuntu package will be dumped by the Debian version packaged in the meanwhile
[03:54] <Tonio_> lucas: and ashamed to say that, "microsoft expert" ;)
[03:55] <raphink> so it's better if you dump your own package with it's Debian equivalent
[03:55] <raphink> so you keep being the only maintainer
[03:55] <Tonio_> this is what my company writes on my cv, not what I pretend to be, of course :)
[03:55] <raphink> lol
[03:55] <Tonio_> expert means nothing
[03:55] <lucas> heh
[03:55] <lucas> ok, really off to bed now
[03:55] <lucas> be back tomorrow
[03:56] <raphink> ok
[03:56] <Tonio_> good night
[03:56] <raphink> good night
[03:56] <raphink> I'll try to thikn of constructive stuff to get out of this talk
[03:56] <raphink> ;)
[03:56] <raphink> s/thikn/think/
[03:56] <Kyral> raphink: you think I should hangout in #debian-mentors?
[03:56] <raphink> Kyral: I haven't been there for a long tie
[03:56] <raphink> time
[03:56] <raphink> but you can go
[03:57] <raphink> ajmitch: well it'll be constructive for my understanding of the whole thing I think
[03:57] <Kyral> yah if my Ubuntu cloak doesn't scare people
[03:57] <raphink> ajmitch: and maybe to write a few docs on the subject
[03:57] <Tonio_> ajmitch: little question, cause I haven't seen your point of view on that point
[03:57] <raphink> if thre is such a conversation coming back regularly
[03:57] <raphink> then it means it's not documented enough
[03:57] <raphink> imo
[03:57] <Tonio_> ajmitch: except for very rare exceptions, when there is a divergence
[03:57] <ajmitch> Tonio_: because I didn't want to get involved
[03:58] <Kyral>  ./join #debian-mentors
[03:58] <Tonio_> is REVU of any use according to you if packages have to be submitted to debian in the second place
[03:58] <Kyral> oops
[03:58] <raphink> lol
[03:58] <ajmitch> yes
[03:58] <Tonio_> okay
[03:58] <LaserJock> Tonio_: what do you mean by "have to"?
[03:59] <Tonio_> LaserJock: I mean, that if that's not done, they will be overwritten, giving waste job, when someone in debian will do is own package
[03:59] <Tonio_> so logically, it "has to"....
[03:59] <ajmitch> someone in debian is free to ignore your package anyway
[03:59] <ajmitch> and do it from scratch
[04:00] <LaserJock> that is assuming someone is going to package it in Debian
[04:00] <Kyral> lol
[04:00] <Kyral> Yah I mean I'd be lazy
[04:00] <Kyral> lol we are invading lol
[04:00] <raphink> haha
[04:00] <seth_k|lappy> Kyral, md5deep done, so don't trouble yourself over it ( http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1378 )
[04:00] <Tonio_> ajmitch: so the only way to be sure that the job isn't done twice and maybe lost one day is to do it for debian in the first place
[04:00] <raphink> well notice siretart was already there Kyral
[04:00] <Tonio_> and let ubuntu sync
[04:01] <Kyral> seth_k|lappy: ahh
[04:01] <Tonio_> that's the reason I start wondering about the purpose of REVU....
[04:02] <raphink> Tonio_: no, not necessarily
[04:02] <Tonio_> imagin you take time to package an app, patching etc.... get it approved on revu,
[04:02] <raphink> as you package it for Ubuntu, you can file an ITP
[04:02] <raphink> and once it's in Ubuntu try to get the package in Debian through a sponsor
[04:02] <Tonio_> then posting an RFP in debian
[04:02] <raphink> then once it's in Debian, sync the version you got in Debian in Ubuntu
[04:02] <raphink> so you keep being the only maintainer
[04:02] <Tonio_> to see that ignored and your package overwritten by another one....
[04:02] <raphink> you get your package in Ubuntu fast
[04:02] <raphink> you get it improved yet more in debian
[04:02] <raphink> and it gets back into Ubuntu with your name in the end
[04:02] <Tonio_> I would personnaly stop packaging for ubuntu directly in that case......
[04:03] <raphink> ajmitch: is that right?
[04:04] <Tonio_> well, listening to lucas, it is quicker getting the package in debian that in ubuntu so....
[04:04] <Tonio_> and packages are better also....
[04:04] <LaserJock> for me it is more like, package for Ubuntu and then let Debian know so that if somebody is interested then they can get it in Debian
[04:04] <Kyral> Anyeone know how to reset the status bar in Irssi back to default?
[04:04] <LaserJock> raphink: and a whole lot more talking
[04:04] <raphink> Tonio_: while getting it into Debian, nothing prevents you from putting it on REVU at the same time
[04:05] <Tonio_> raphink: waste of time.....
[04:05] <Tonio_> because ubuntu syncs...
[04:05] <raphink> LaserJock: typical Debian answer on #debian-mentors you got : read the doc
[04:05] <raphink> ;)
[04:05] <raphink> and don't ask questions ;)
[04:05] <raphink> take your glasses, an aspirine and read
[04:05] <raphink> no Tonio_
[04:06] <raphink> your package gets improved in the process
[04:06] <raphink> you get the initial version through REVu
[04:06] <Tonio_> to me debian's community is the less friendly I've found on the net
[04:06] <raphink> you get a good package in Ubuntu
[04:06] <raphink> then you get it into Debian
[04:06] <raphink> it gets improved
[04:06] <raphink> then you merge it again in Ubuntu
[04:06] <raphink> and it's improved again
[04:06] <Tonio_> raphink: , or maybe ;
[04:06] <raphink> you get very good packages this way
[04:06] <raphink> and keep being the only maintainer
[04:06] <Tonio_> you get it approved in ubuntu, at least one month
[04:07] <Tonio_> then you submitted it the debian, but well, another one has been done, and your job is lost....
[04:07] <raphink> Tonio_: find a sponsor _while_ it's still on REVU
[04:07] <raphink> you package an app
[04:07] <raphink> for both Ubuntu and Debian
[04:07] <Tonio_> rap, in that case why not submitting it directly to debian ?
[04:07] <raphink> when it's improved on REVU, you improve both
[04:07] <LaserJock> Tonio_: honestly, I haven't seen Debian move fast enough for that to be much of a problem
[04:07] <Tonio_> I don't understand the difference
[04:07] <LaserJock> but then maybe it is just me
[04:08] <raphink> Tonio_: because if you only submit it to Debian :
[04:08] <raphink> 1) yo uwon't benefit from REVU
[04:08] <raphink> 2) it'll end up in Ubuntu later
[04:08] <raphink> ;)
[04:08] <Tonio_> raphink: if DDs are that good
[04:08] <Tonio_> a package submitted and approved for debian will be de facto good for revu
[04:08] <raphink> Tonio_: they are mostly _numerous_
[04:08] <Tonio_> another question
[04:09] <raphink> Tonio_: MOTUs and mentors are humans, not machines
[04:09] <Tonio_> you package an app
[04:09] <Tonio_> with the patch for rosetta
[04:09] <raphink> and a mistake that has not been seen by a DD can be seen by a MOTU
[04:09] <Tonio_> then the package ets without it in debian
[04:09] <Tonio_> ubuntu sync
[04:09] <Tonio_> what happens to the pot file ?
[04:09] <Tonio_> lost ?
[04:09] <raphink> you keep it
[04:09] <raphink> when merging
[04:09] <raphink> imo
[04:09] <Tonio_> you keep it or the actual version yes
[04:09] <raphink> that's logical
[04:09] <Tonio_> but for the next versions ?
[04:10] <raphink> that's why I would submit to both Debian and Ubuntu at the same time
[04:10] <Kyral> sithspit the Statusbar commands are confusing
[04:10] <Tonio_> the patch won't go in debian right ?
[04:10] <raphink> so when your package reaches Debian
[04:10] <raphink> there is already a version with the pot patch in Ubuntu
[04:10] <raphink> so it's kept when merging
[04:10] <Tonio_> that's a kind of mess
[04:10] <Tonio_> packaging for ubuntu, to get the pot file in it
[04:10] <raphink> Tonio_: just have to find the better way for you to do
[04:10] <Tonio_> then packaging for debian
[04:10] <raphink> I think i'm finding mine
[04:10] <Tonio_> package overwrittent
[04:11] <Tonio_> no patch anymore
[04:11] <Tonio_> but the pot is in rosetta
[04:11] <raphink> no no
[04:11] <Tonio_> and start again with the next version
[04:11] <raphink> you make one package
[04:11] <raphink> in the beginning
[04:11] <raphink> you submit it without the pot file to Debian
[04:11] <Tonio_> you have to maintain 2 packages
[04:11] <raphink> and with the pot file to Ubuntu
[04:11] <raphink> through REVU, the package gets into Ubuntu
[04:11] <raphink> and through mentors into Debian
[04:11] <raphink> when it raeches Debian, it's already in Ubuntu, very likely
[04:11] <Tonio_> then ubuntu syncs
[04:12] <raphink> so when it's merged afterwards
[04:12] <ajmitch> hm
[04:12] <raphink> the pot file is kept
[04:12] <raphink> on top of the package improved through the Debian process
[04:12] <ajmitch> this package is almost working..
[04:12] <Tonio_> and the debian package overwrites the ubuntu one
[04:12] <raphink> what do you think ajmitch ?
[04:12] <Tonio_> raphink: yes, it is
[04:12] <Tonio_> but with the next version, you have to do it
[04:12] <ajmitch> I dunno
[04:12] <Tonio_> again
[04:12] <raphink> ajmitch: ok ;)
[04:13] <LaserJock> Tonio_: you would have to merge it each time until Debian includes it
[04:13] <raphink> ;)
[04:13] <ajmitch> nearly all of my packages are maintained solely in debian & synced across
[04:13] <Tonio_> LaserJock: no everytime
[04:13] <raphink> brb
[04:13] <Tonio_> because if someone make or updates the debian package before your one is advocated on revu
[04:13] <Tonio_> the pot file will not be added to rosetta
[04:14] <Tonio_> the ubuntu package doesn't have the priority
[04:14] <Tonio_> that's an issue
[04:14] <LaserJock> then we would just make and -ubuntu1 version
[04:14] <LaserJock> s/and/an/
[04:14] <Tonio_> LaserJock: and MOTUS will tell you "no, already in debian"
[04:14] <Tonio_> like I've seen many times
[04:15] <raphink> ubuntu patches are kept Tonio_
[04:15] <raphink> if necessary
[04:15] <LaserJock> why? If you are fixing bugs or really adding something I don't think it will be rejected by the MOTU
[04:16] <Tonio_> raphink: not sure that can be applied to the rosetta patch
[04:16] <raphink> pretty sure
[04:16] <Tonio_> because the kde.mk on the building server is modified
[04:16] <Tonio_> and might crash on debian servers
[04:17] <raphink> the rosetta patch would never end up in Debian
[04:17] <raphink> ;)
[04:18] <LaserJock> heah, I just reading the debian-mentors FAQ and they suggest that if someone can't find a sponsor to user REVU and utnubnu
[04:18] <LaserJock> s/user/use
[04:18] <Kyral> lol
[04:18] <LaserJock> so it seems to me that Debian knows what's going on
[04:19] <raphink> interesting :)
[04:19] <ajmitch> LaserJock: considering that womble has been in here a bit lately..
[04:19] <ajmitch> womble == FAQ writer
[04:19] <LaserJock> ajmitch: ah, good to know
[04:20] <Kyral> So does that mean I'm already halfway there? lol
[04:20] <LaserJock> so I mean it really just seems like packaging for Ubuntu and letting Debian know (either through debian-mentors or an area specifc ML) will probably be sufficent
[04:21] <raphink> lol
[04:21] <Tonio_> c juste pour les francophones, et j'assume :)
[04:21] <LaserJock> If we feel bold enough to want to maintain the package in Debian also then we can do a itp and rfs
[04:21] <Kyral> I don't mind maintaining EasyChem
[04:21] <ajmitch> LaserJock: that's expected
[04:21] <LaserJock> ajmitch: what is expected?
[04:22] <ajmitch> that you file an ITP if you plan to maintain
[04:22] <Kyral> Where is this form anyway?
[04:22] <LaserJock> right
[04:22] <Tonio_> ajmitch: where is it written on the packaging guides, on revu etc ???
[04:22] <LaserJock> but we aren't expected to file an ITP are we?
[04:22] <ajmitch> Tonio_: I'm talking about debian
[04:23] <Tonio_> ajmitch: ho sorry....
[04:23] <ajmitch> eg I have 2 ITPs open
[04:23] <ajmitch> 1 of which has a package in Ubuntu
[04:23] <ajmitch> the other one I'm working on at the moment
[04:23] <LaserJock> I am willing to maintain for Ubuntu but I would have to think about maintaining for Debian as well
[04:24] <LaserJock> but maybe I just need to go ahead and get further into Debian
[04:25] <LaserJock> I just think that an Ubuntu contributor shouldn't have to neccessarily be an Debian contributor. It's nice but not neccessary.
[04:26] <Kyral> ajmitch: how would I file an ITP?
[04:26] <ajmitch> Kyral: by reading the instructions on the page
[04:26] <Kyral> which page?
[04:26] <ajmitch> the debian pages which give an intro to packaging & getting things in
[04:27] <LaserJock> http://bugs.debian.org/wnpp
[04:27] <thierry> Kyral : are you a MOTU?
[04:27] <Kyral> no
[04:27] <Kyral> just in Training
[04:27] <thierry> k
[04:27] <Kyral> but I have something in Universe
[04:27] <thierry> k... I'm trying to get reviewed my package, could you help me anyway?
[04:28] <Kyral> umm sure
[04:28] <Kyral> brb though
[04:28] <thierry> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1371
[04:29] <ajmitch> did you fix the shared lib issue?
[04:29] <Burgundavia> Kyral, was I not harrasing you about galaxy-mage? ;)
[04:30] <Kyral> ic
[04:30] <Kyral> Burgundavia: Yah
[04:30] <thierry> ajmitch : well by adding DEB_CONFIGURE_EXTRA_FLAGS := --enable-shared=yes (if that's enough)
[04:30] <ajmitch> thierry: you have checked, right?
[04:30] <Kyral> Burgundavia: I cannot package for a bit
[04:30] <thierry> ajmitch : how can I check?
[04:30] <Kyral> Its on my "To Package" Queue
[04:30] <ajmitch> Kyral: why not?
[04:30] <Burgundavia> Kyral, at this rate I never have to learn packaging. I can just harass others into doing it for me
[04:30] <ajmitch> thierry: by checking what files are in the package
[04:30] <Kyral> ajmitch: production box is internet disabled
[04:30] <ajmitch> Kyral: so?
[04:30] <Kyral> ajmitch: bah
[04:31] <Kyral> I'm also working on my school's lab build
[04:32] <ajmitch> thierry: looks like you still have to fix it
[04:33] <thierry> ajmitch : yes, but wich more files should be there? its my first package :)
[04:33] <ajmitch> thierry: the library package is useless as it stands, sorry.. it only has README & a changelog
[04:33] <ajmitch> but --enable-shared=yes didn't get passed to configure
[04:33] <Tonio_> good night all :)
[04:34] <LaserJock> cya Tonio_ , thanks for the discussion
[04:34] <seth_k|lappy> Would anyone care to look at md5deep ( http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1379 ) or polyester ( http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1375 [KDE, 1 advocate]  ) ?
[04:34] <Tonio_> LaserJock: that's a pleasure :)
[04:35] <Kyral> and to file an RFS for EasyChem
[04:35] <ajmitch> well, sponsors.debian.net
[04:35] <ajmitch> for anyone who wants the real site :)
[04:35] <Kyral> lol
[04:35] <Kyral> yub yub ajmitch
[04:36] <LaserJock> hmm, I will have to look into it as well
[04:37] <LaserJock> but I think the main thing is I am going to email debian-science and work on the relationship between them and MOTUScience, that way all this discussion will really become irrelevent
[04:37] <Kyral> yah
[04:37] <Kyral> cc me on that
[04:37] <LaserJock> I will probably cc ubuntu-science
[04:38] <Kyral> I don't think I'm on that list...
[04:38] <LaserJock> yes you are
[04:38] <LaserJock> gimme a sec I will check
[04:41] <raphink> Kyral, LaserJock : http://raphink.free.fr/debs/ubuntu_debian_packages.jpg
[04:41] <raphink> what do you think?
[04:41] <raphink> ajmitch:
[04:41] <raphink> except the image quality is horrible ;)
[04:41] <Kyral> lol
[04:42] <raphink> this is what I get to
[04:42] <Kyral> brb
[04:42] <raphink> that allows being the maintainer of both
[04:42] <raphink> while having the package in Ubuntu fast
[04:42] <raphink> and not get someone duplicate the work
[04:42] <LaserJock> Kyral: you aren't on the list :( Do you want me to add you?
[04:43] <raphink> what do you think LaserJock ?
[04:45] <LaserJock> raphink: just a minute, stupid dialup
[04:45] <raphink> ok
[04:45] <Kyral> LaserJock: yah
[04:45] <Kyral> my @ubuntu
[04:45] <raphink> http://raphink.free.fr/debs/ubuntu_debian_packages.png
[04:45] <raphink> this is much nicer to look at ;)
[04:47] <thierry> ajmitch : where could I get info of what is a shared librairy? maybe it could help me...
[04:48] <Nirvana> would this be the right place to ask if a package is coming to Ubuntu?
[04:51] <minghua> raphink: sorry, I think I joined in the middle, what idea is your diagram trying to say?
[04:52] <Nirvana> well, I'll ask anyways, and come back in ten for the answer: when will aMSN and LimeWire (0.95 and 4.10.0 respectively) be ported to Ubuntu?
[04:52] <raphink> minghua: trying to think of a way to contribute to Ubuntu without the contribution to be dumped by merge from Debian later on
[04:52] <raphink> minghua: and get the best of it
[04:52] <Kyral> Nirvana: check to see if its in Debian Sid
[04:52] <Nirvana> link please
[04:53] <raphink> packages.debian.org
[04:53] <Kyral> what raphink said
[04:53] <Nirvana> ahh, I usually check there too!
[04:53] <raphink> Kyral: what do you think of my scheme?
[04:53] <Kyral> raphink: you wrote it on a napkin?
[04:53] <Kyral> ;P
[04:53] <raphink> minghua: does that help you understand the scheme?
[04:54] <raphink> Kyral: I'm not a graphic designer :p
[04:54] <Kyral> raphink: neither am I
[04:54] <raphink> and I used inkscape, even if that's painful to hear :p
[04:54] <LaserJock> raphink: I think it looks reasonable
[04:54] <minghua> raphink: yeah, I understand the idea, and your diagram says it well, but isn't that the way things are supposed to be? :-P
[04:54] <raphink> minghua: it's surely the way it's supposed to be
[04:55] <raphink> now i'm happy to know it
[04:55] <raphink> it's not documented
[04:55] <raphink> or official in any way it seems
[04:55] <minghua> oh, I see
[04:55] <raphink> so if it's the way it should be and the diagram says it well
[04:55] <LaserJock> minghua: some people were suggesting that we should just try to get packages sponsored in Debian and not have REVU for new packages
[04:55] <minghua> raphink: it would be nice in the documentation :-)
[04:55] <raphink> then I'll try to document it
[04:56] <raphink> minghua: some other people were also suggesting that it's fine to contribute through REVU and see your work demped by merges later on
[04:56] <raphink> s/demped/dumped/
[04:56] <raphink> which is hard to swallow
[04:56] <minghua> LaserJock: I would not agree with that, my experience is that getting things sponsored is hard
[04:56] <minghua> not that is necessarily a bad thing, but REVU has its place
[04:56] <raphink> minghua: the idea in my scheme is that REVU is a great way to
[04:56] <raphink> 1) get your package fast enough in ubuntu
[04:57] <raphink> 2) get a good package so that Debian won't have much to say abou tit
[04:57] <raphink> with time, DDs might be used to getting good packages from REVU
[04:57] <raphink> and value it
[04:57] <raphink> imo
[04:59] <minghua> raphink: you probably want to emphasize the importance of filing bugs with (non-ubuntu-specific) patches to Debian BTS then, if you feel work getting dumped is a big concern
[04:59] <raphink> in a way yes
[04:59] <raphink> I also want to better understand the sentence you just wrote
[04:59] <raphink> and no doc in ubuntu allows me to
[04:59] <Nirvana> hey since you guys are MOTU (cool name btw 8-) ), would you mind pointing me into some documentation dealing with creating .deb packages? I've tried the official debian site once before, but it was unclear to me...
[04:59] <raphink> only my short experience in the Debian world helps me with it
[05:00] <raphink> the New Debian Maintainer's Guide is the reference Nirvana
[05:00] <Kyral> Nirvana: the New Maintainers Guide is the best resouce
[05:00] <raphink> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips
[05:00] <raphink> here are the things to know
[05:00] <raphink> added the NDMG to it today
[05:00] <raphink> thought it could be useful somehow ;)
[05:01] <Nirvana> I think that's what I read, maybe I'll re-read
[05:01] <psusi> is anyoen around who can expedite my gpg key being authorized to upload to revu?
[05:01] <raphink> minghua: i'd be happy to have a referent who knows Debian enough to help me with such a doc
[05:02] <raphink> psusi: send a signed message to keyring@tauware.de
[05:02] <Nirvana> yes, it was what I read, ah well though, maybe it'll be clearer the third time around (3rd times the charm :P)
[05:02] <minghua> raphink: I would like to help, but I am not sure I know more than you
[05:02] <raphink> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
[05:02] <psusi> raphink, did that about an hour ago...
[05:02] <raphink> also a page largely updated today psusi
[05:02] <raphink> psusi: then wait
[05:02] <raphink> it's night in Europe
[05:02] <LaserJock> Nirvana: you might want to also look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide at doc.ubuntu.com
[05:02] <psusi> ok...
[05:02] <raphink> it's 5AM
[05:03] <raphink> and many MOTUs are in Europe
[05:03] <raphink> reminds me I should get some sleep soon ;)
[05:03] <minghua> raphink: and I don't quite understand which part of my last sentence you have difficulty to understand, maybe I can rephrase
[05:03] <raphink> BTS
[05:03] <raphink> I guess it's Bug Tracking System
[05:03] <raphink> when you get in the Debian world
[05:03] <raphink> you're surrounded with acronyms
[05:03] <raphink> that everybody seems to know except you
[05:03] <raphink> BTS, ITP, RFP, DD, etc.
[05:04] <minghua> raphink: yes, sorry for using abbreviations you are not familiar
[05:04] <raphink> that doesn't help understanding
[05:04] <raphink> minghua: these acronyms, as the rest, should be documented in the ubuntu doc imo
[05:04] <raphink> if we want ubuntu contributors to contribute to debian without too great an effort
[05:05] <minghua> raphink: for acronyms, we have http://women.alioth.debian.org/dicts/
[05:05] <raphink> this is not the ubuntu doc
[05:05] <raphink> or is it reffered to in the ubuntu doc?
[05:05] <LaserJock> I wish we could interact with Debian more without having to become DDs to do it
[05:05] <minghua> raphink: I don't really know
[05:06] <minghua> raphink: I'm all for better docs, I just don't have enough motivation to write them myself
[05:06] <raphink> it's not easy I reckon minghua ;)
[05:07] <nalioth> is there something special to do to export a gpg key for folks to grab to verify your packages?, or just export your key regular and change .asc to .gpg  ?
[05:08] <raphink> later
[05:08] <seth_k|lappy> bye raphink|sleep
[05:09] <raphink|sleep> seth_k|lappy: can you have a look at http://raphink.free.fr/debs/ubuntu_debian_packages.png and tell me what you think ?
[05:09] <raphink|sleep> later on ;)
[05:10] <seth_k|lappy> raphink|sleep, seems like the ideal method
[05:10] <seth_k|lappy> raphink|sleep, the problem is that most ubuntu people won't want to have to file an ITP etc. Possibly REVU should be able to do that for you
[05:11] <minghua> Burgundavia: that hurts....  altough I generally agree with you, more people should be writing docs
[05:12] <minghua> seth_k|lappy: I don't think automatic ITP (intent to package) is a good idea, RFP (request to package), maybe
[05:13] <minghua> seth_k|lappy: I don't think automatic ITP (intent to package) is a good idea, RFP (request to package), maybe
[05:14] <seth_k|lappy> minghua, ah. I'm a bit shaky on the difference... ITP = you will maintain in Debian, RFP = you want somebody else to maintain?
[05:14] <seth_k|lappy> do you actually have to have a package ready to file an RFP?
[05:15] <LaserJock> ok, I better go too. I will try to email debian-science and try to look into Debian sponsorship
[05:17] <minghua> seth_k|lappy: your understanding is correct, and you don't need a package ready for filing RFP
[05:17] <seth_k|lappy> ok, thank you
[05:17] <LaserJock> but you guys should really look at w.u.c/UbuntuPackagingGuide, I would really like feedback *hint*
[05:18] <minghua> seth_k|lappy: but as long as such thing is filed automatically, I think RFP is more proper
[05:18] <seth_k|lappy> yes, makes sense
[06:39] <Kyral> hmm
[06:39] <Kyral> is the planet.ubuntu.com login tied to LP and Wiki?
[06:41] <seth_k|lappy> yes
[06:42] <Kyral> okay
[06:42] <seth_k|lappy> it appears to do nothing though
[06:42] <Kyral> it should say that on the form lol
[06:49] <Kyral> can't find the thingy to add my blog RSS feed to Planet
[06:54] <lifeless> Kyral: email jdub
[06:55] <Kyral> lifeless: mkay
[07:07] <seth_k|lappy> erm
[07:07] <seth_k|lappy> I don't suppose there is quality-of-content screening on what goes into planet
[07:09] <Burgundavia> seth_k|lappy, jdub approves it
[07:09] <lifeless> seth_k|lappy: planet ubuntu <-> ubuntu members, makes sense to me
[07:09] <Burgundavia> seth_k|lappy, it is self regulating and people can always be removed
[07:10] <seth_k|lappy> that's true. I suppose I just fear 100 new articles a day coming out of the Planet RSS feed,  la planet gnome or something, and that it'll cause me to miss the important ones
[07:11] <crimsun> you're free to cherry-pick the articles you read :)
[07:15] <seth_k|lappy> this is true. crimsun, did you happen to figure out if you can log in with your old e-mail to REVU, so I can maybe get that second advocate for polyester?
[07:18] <crimsun> seth_k|lappy: it's not my e-mail, it's something else, but I'll work on it. Thanks for poking me.
[07:19] <seth_k|lappy> I appreciate it, crimsun.
[08:42] <nalioth> another silly question. how do i get around this when i build packages? Depends: kdelibs4c2 (>=4:3.4.3-1) but 4:3.4.3-0ubuntu1 is to be installed
[08:44] <seth_k|lappy> is your pbuilder up-to-date, nalioth ?
[08:44] <nalioth> seth_k|lappy: there are no updates available for it
[08:45] <nalioth> i dont understand your question
[08:45] <nalioth> have i changed any configs and it is out of date that way, no.
[08:45] <seth_k|lappy> sudo pbuilder update will run an apt-get update inside the pbuilder
[08:45] <seth_k|lappy> if kdelibs4c2 is a new release or something
[08:45] <seth_k|lappy> but it looks like a debian vs. ubuntu issue
[08:45] <seth_k|lappy> is this something you're trying to install from a .deb?
[08:46] <nalioth> no, this is the ksmoothdock i built with only one lintian squeak (that i have no clue how to fix)
[08:46] <nalioth> i put it up on my repo and am looking at it in synaptic and it tells me that
[08:46] <minghua> nalioth: what distribution is your pbuilder in?  dapper aparently renamed to kdelibs4c2a
[08:46] <nalioth> breezy pbuilder
[08:47] <minghua> breezy indeed only has 4:3.4.3-0ubuntu1, so probably what seth_k|lappy said, debian vs. ubuntu issue
[08:48] <nalioth> how do i get the build depends to say *ubuntu1 ?
[08:48] <seth_k|lappy> what does the line say right now?
[08:48] <seth_k|lappy> kdelibs4-dev should be enough
[08:49] <nalioth> ksmoothdock: Depends: kdelibs4c2 (>= 4:3.4.3-1) but 4:3.4.3-0ubuntu1 is to be installed.
[08:49] <seth_k|lappy> you don't have like, a KDE 3.5 repo in your sources.list for pbuilder, do you?
[08:49] <seth_k|lappy> if you didn't have the same one in your master sources.list, that might be it
[08:49] <nalioth> i have only breezy repos in my pbuilder sources.list
[08:49] <minghua> nalioth: how did you build your ksmoothdock?
[08:50] <minghua> in breezy pbuilder?
[08:51] <nalioth> minghua: yes. in a breezy pbuilder
[08:51] <nalioth> there are no stable kde 3.5 repos for me (i'm on powerpc)
[08:52] <minghua> nalioth: do a "sudo pbuilder login" then run "cat /etc/apt/sources.list" and "apt-cache policy kdelibs4-dev" in the chroot should give necessary information
[08:57] <nalioth> minghua: this is my first day using pbuilder, and i have no idea what i'm looking at in the policy
[08:57] <minghua> nalioth: what version did it say?
[08:58] <minghua> nalioth: or you can always paste is somewhere and ask others to look
[08:58] <nalioth> 4:3.5.0-0ubuntu0breezy1
[08:59] <minghua> nalioth: yeah, that's the problem, the output should also say where the version is from
[08:59] <nalioth> minghua: as said above, i'm a one day novice at all this
[09:06] <nalioth> i guess i'm wanting to know what to put in the control file so that it looks for *ubuntu1  pkgs
[09:11] <minghua> nalioth: my impression is you should just get rid of the non-breezy repository from your sources.list
[09:23] <nalioth> minghua: thank you.
[09:24] <minghua> nalioth: np, good luck with your package :-)
[09:24] <nalioth> minghua: i'm just practicin' up atm
[09:25] <nalioth> minghua: so far all the pkgs i would like to get into Ubuntu are already in REVU
[09:26] <minghua> nalioth: I see, good luck with advocates then ;-)
[09:29] <nalioth> minghua: but i'm sure i'll find something to adopt
[10:17] <GregorR-L> When is the next freeze for Ubuntu?
[11:06] <dholbach> hello everybody
[11:07] <crimsun> re daniel :)
[11:08] <dholbach> crimsun: i have a xubuntu test box right now - it works nicely :)
[11:09] <crimsun> dholbach: cool!
[11:11] <zakame> heya dholbach :)
[11:11] <zakame> ooh xubuntu!
[11:12] <ajmitch> hey dholbach
[11:13] <dholbach> hey guys - you're already rocking Universe? :)
[11:14] <ajmitch> nah
[11:14] <ajmitch> hardly touched it
[11:15] <zakame> haha
[11:15] <zakame> lucas is, definitely :)
[11:15] <ajmitch> oh?
[11:15] <ajmitch> why is that?
[11:15] <lucas> ?
[11:16] <zakame> re the good list :)
[11:16] <ajmitch> oh that
[11:19] <lucas> well it's not about rocking universe, just giving a status of what is still to do
[11:19] <ajmitch> like the merge page does
[11:19] <lucas> (and what was done)
[11:20] <zakame> still, nice overview to help rocking ;)
[11:20] <ajmitch> since most of the time was spent calling dpkg
[11:20] <zakame> w00t
[11:20] <ajmitch> well, 15 seconds, sorry
[11:21] <ajmitch> but that's not too bad compared to the 5 minutes it was
[11:21] <lucas> does it include calling apt-get update to update the *Packages and *Sources files ? :-)
[11:21] <zakame> hehe
[11:21] <ajmitch> lucas: yes
[11:21] <ajmitch> except it doesn't use apt-get
[11:21] <lucas> ah
[11:21] <zakame> aptitude?
[11:21] <ajmitch> just fetches the sources, parses the sources
[11:21] <zakame> er ECHAN
[11:21] <ajmitch> no, just python
[11:22] <lucas> I can do "mdt dist-apt-get dapper source plop"
[11:22] <ajmitch> that's great
[11:22] <lucas> if I want to run apt-get with a dapper sources.list
[11:22] <lucas> I found that libapt is not that bad, and it's better to use it
[11:22] <lucas> then reinvent the wheel
[11:38] <GregorR-L> So, ajmitch ... mind uploading the newest rev of my pack?  PWEEEEEEEZE? *sad puppy dog face*
[11:49] <pappan> Happy New Year to all !
[11:50] <GregorR-L> A bit belated, but sure!
[11:50] <pappan> yes but i was away and did not get much time
[11:58] <pappan> dholbach: are you there
[11:59] <dholbach> yeah
[12:01] <GregorR-L> Hmm
[12:01] <GregorR-L> Clearly he didn't need to talk to you too badly ;)
[12:03] <GregorR-L> O_O
[01:06] <lucas> hi raphink
[01:06] <lucas> did the little discussion continue after I left ?
[01:06] <lucas> I woke up at 8, was quite hard :-)
[01:08] <raphink> I woke up 15 minutes ago
[01:08] <raphink> lol
[01:08] <raphink> quiet hard
[01:08] <raphink> lucas: http://raphink.free.fr/debs/ubuntu_debian_packages.png
[01:08] <raphink> this is my conclusion on it, the option I would choose
[01:09] <raphink> and if this is the way to go, I'm going to document it in the wiki
[01:09] <raphink> some said filing an RFP might be better
[01:09] <lucas> I've started a wiki page about this
[01:09] <raphink> I think I'll ask some DDs what they think of the matter ;)
[01:09] <lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[01:09] <crimsun> lucas: were you able to generate a page that just has the necessary Ubuntu merges? (currently 154)
[01:10] <raphink> lucas: we'll see that later I don't have much time now
[01:10] <raphink> but this is really something I'd want to work on
[01:10] <lucas> I'll detail the ITP/RFP debate
[01:10] <lucas> crimsun: haven't worked on it yet
[01:10] <raphink> lucas: you can use my scheme if you want
[01:10] <lucas> raphink: we'll chat about this tonight if you prefer
[01:13] <crimsun> I'll be offline (no MOTU work) today and tomorrow; driving to visit a friend who was recently diagnosed with lymphoma
[01:13] <dholbach> crimsun: tell him our regards
[01:13] <crimsun> thanks, daniel
[01:13] <dholbach> the MOTU crew was thinking of him :-)
[01:14] <crimsun> :)
[01:14] <lucas> is he an ubuntu user ? ;)
[01:16] <raphink> lucas: there's some work to do on either merging or linking PackagingTips and UbuntuPackagingGuide
[01:17] <lucas> that's a bit far from MOTU I think
[01:17] <lucas> feel free to start to work on that, I won't :-)
[01:17] <raphink> ok
[01:17] <raphink> what is the UbuntuPackagingGuide actually?
[01:17] <raphink> the page I mean
[01:17] <raphink> is it just a spec ?
[01:17] <lucas> I dunno
[01:17] <raphink> or is it to be filled with data?
[01:18] <raphink> lol
[01:18] <raphink> ok we'll see abut that
[01:57] <raphink> argh
[01:57] <raphink> The authentication database is temporarily unavailable. Anonymous access only.
[01:57] <raphink> :(
[01:58] <Lathiat> whats that on?
[01:58] <raphink> wiki.u.c
[01:58] <zakame> gaah
[01:59] <raphink> yeah
[01:59] <zakame> that's why I sometimes keep cookies for that, I can still edit
[01:59] <raphink> and i'm wanting to write doc
[01:59] <raphink> :s
[01:59] <raphink> I'll write in kate and paste later on
[02:34] <raphink> lucas: tu peux jeter un coup d'oeil  a stp ? http://raphink.free.fr/debs/get_your_package_in_debian
[02:34] <raphink> vu que le wiki est en panne ;)
[02:34] <lucas> arg, j'ai commenc un truc trs proche
[02:34] <raphink> ah
[02:34] <raphink> fais voir
[02:34] <raphink> on va merger ;)
[02:35] <lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[02:35] <lucas> mais il manque un bout que je peux pas commiter
[02:35] <lucas>  cause du probleme d'auth
[02:35] <raphink> tu peux lire mon truc ?
[02:35] <raphink> je pense que a peut complter ta page
[02:35] <raphink> on peut mixer un peu des deux ;)
[02:36] <zakame> lucas: w00t
[02:36] <raphink> entre autre la partie Getting New Soft in Debian
[02:36] <raphink> zakame: wanna read them and give your opinion?
[02:36] <lucas> raphink's fault ;)
[02:36] <raphink> lucas: hehe, you began it last night ;)
[02:36] <raphink> my turn
[02:37] <raphink> that just proves open-source is still quite active in france ;)
[02:37] <dholbach> lucas: cet page manque des informations sur utnubu :)
[02:38] <raphink> de fait dholbach we need to add that too
[02:38] <lucas> I know
[02:38] <raphink> dholbach: can you have a look at http://raphink.free.fr/debs/get_your_package_in_debian ?
[02:38] <lucas> buxy mentionned it too
[02:38] <lucas> but I'm waiting for the wiki to come back
[02:38] <raphink> dholbach: it's not on the wiki yet because the wiki auth system is broken now
[02:38] <lucas> raphink: your page is very good, but maybe too detailed
[02:38] <lucas> you'll see what I mean when I'll be able to commit ;)
[02:38] <zakame> I really should learn fr :)
[02:38] <raphink> lucas: our conversation yesterday was very detailed
[02:38] <dholbach> raphink: we decided against ITPs
[02:38] <raphink> on such a subject I'd rather give lots of infos
[02:39] <dholbach> raphink: RFPs with a link to the package in the ubuntu archive should suffice
[02:39] <raphink> dholbach: ok
[02:39] <dholbach> raphink: most ubuntu guys don't run debian and you can't expect it
[02:39] <raphink> of course dholbach
[02:39] <dholbach> raphink: so it's better to have a debian maintainer who actually uses the package in a day-to-day basis
[02:39] <raphink> then I'll document both ways
[02:39] <dholbach> right
[02:39] <raphink> the RFP way, which is easier
[02:39] <dholbach> thanks
[02:39] <raphink> and the ITP way, which is better
[02:40] <raphink> no?
[02:40] <dholbach> yeah and utnubu-discuss@ way :)
[02:40] <lucas> my page proposes both, explain the pros and cons of each approach
[02:40] <lucas> but I can't show you :)
[02:40] <raphink> lucas: good :)
[02:40] <raphink> hehe
[02:40] <zakame> wow
[02:40] <raphink> lucas: I'll wait till you can submit it
[02:40] <raphink> and then i'll add my contribution
[02:40] <lucas> ok
[02:41] <zakame> ooh, so now I know why RFP, not just ITP
[02:41] <raphink> ;)
[02:42] <raphink> lucas: we need ITD (Intend To Doc)  bugs for the wiki ;)
[02:42] <raphink> so we don't duplicate articles ;)
[02:42] <zakame> how about existing RFPs which are not yet tagged already-in-ubuntu?
[02:42] <dholbach> ouch :)
[02:43] <raphink> lol
[02:43] <raphink> zakame: you can tag RFPs as already-in-ubuntu?
[02:44] <zakame> raphink: yes iirc, I read it at utnubu.alioth
[02:44] <raphink> oh interesting :D
[02:44] <raphink> that means we can file RFPs for our new packages
[02:44] <buxy> rajasun: yes, that's the user of "usertags" in the Debian BTS
[02:44] <raphink> and tag them as already-in-ubuntu as soon as they get in dapper
[02:44] <buxy> it allows you to create such page :
[02:44] <buxy> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=already-in-ubuntu;users=utnubu-discuss@lists.alioth.debian.org
[02:45] <buxy> sorry rajasun, I meant raphink
[02:45] <raphink> very interesting buxy :)
[02:45] <raphink> that's something that really deserves to be documented
[02:45] <buxy> this link is on http://utnubu.alioth.debian.org
[02:47] <zakame> buxy: rocking
[02:48] <raphink> :)
[02:58] <Tonio_> hi all
[02:59] <raphink> salut Tonio_
[02:59] <Tonio_> lut
[02:59] <zakame> heya Tonio_ :)
[02:59] <Tonio_> yop zakame
[03:00] <Tonio_> raphink: did last night debate starte again ?
[03:00] <Tonio_> ;)
[03:00] <Tonio_> s/starte/started
[03:00] <raphink> Tonio_: lucas and I are working on documenting this
[03:00] <raphink> although the wiki is down now
[03:00] <Tonio_> and what is the recommended method at the end ?
[03:00] <raphink> Tonio_: http://raphink.free.fr/debs/get_your_package_in_debian
[03:00] <raphink> that's what I've written so far
[03:01] <Tonio_> RFP, ITP or so ?
[03:01] <raphink> and lucas wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian so far
[03:01] <raphink> Tonio_: RFP
[03:01] <raphink> although ITP is better
[03:01] <raphink> so we'll document both and leave the choice to packagers
[03:02] <raphink> Tonio_: buxy pointed out that RFPs can be labeled already-in-ubuntu
[03:02] <raphink> so that you can file an RFP, get your package in Ubuntu and label the RFP this way
[03:02] <raphink> so a Debian maintainer can pick up your Ubuntu package and maintain it
[03:03] <raphink> Tonio_: we also discussed the fact that DDs think to be thinking about how to import Ubuntu packages and benefit from REVU aswell
[03:04] <raphink> s/think/seem/
[03:04] <Tonio_> to be honnest, if the final goal is to gethum
[03:04] <ogra> err, thats what the utnubu team is for ...
[03:04] <Tonio_> oups
[03:04] <raphink> Tonio_: if there are efforts on both sides, it can be quite interesting
[03:04] <Tonio_> hum
[03:04] <raphink> Tonio_: this is the way I see it http://raphink.free.fr/debs/ubuntu_debian_packages.png
[03:04] <Tonio_> the label "already in ubuntu" seems convenient
[03:04] <ogra> just send them a mail to the list, they care for ITP or RFP
[03:04] <raphink> ogra: yes, and we're trying to document the way to help it
[03:04] <ogra> at least thats what we agreed on ages ago
[03:05] <Tonio_> what I don't want is to have to disturb a DD al the day
[03:05] <raphink> ogra: then we need to document it
[03:05] <ogra> it will be totally obsolete once debian and utnubu join revu
[03:05] <raphink> no one is going to guess a mail has to be sent to utnubu list if it's not said anywhere
[03:05] <raphink> ogra: when will debian join REVU?
[03:05] <ogra> nobody has to
[03:05] <ogra> its up to you if you want to notify debian or not
[03:06] <raphink> ogra: we don't have to, but if we don't, then our packages are dumped by debian ones after a short time and this is a waste of time and manpower
[03:06] <Tonio_> ogra: that is my point of view... same plateform for both distribs....
[03:06] <ogra> ask siretart, they are working on alioth/revu compatibility
[03:06] <ogra> Tonio_, that cant work
[03:06] <raphink> mhm
[03:06] <Tonio_> ogra: for most packages it can
[03:06] <Tonio_> I admit that there are differencies that can cause issues
[03:07] <Tonio_> and make it impossible in some cases
[03:07] <ogra> since all our stuff will be on launchpad eventually and thus it will all be bzr ... as long as debian doesnt switch to bzr, they are always apart
[03:07] <zakame> ooh, debian + ubuntu + revu = w00t
[03:07] <ogra> but you can build interaction layers
[03:08] <buxy> ogra: "they are working" on alioth/revu compatibility ?
[03:08] <buxy> you mean I proposed something but we didn't do anything yet ...
[03:08] <ogra> on the mentioned interaction layer, yes
[03:08] <ogra> siretart is working with you guys, isnt he ?
[03:08] <ogra> (as time permits aside revu2 development)
[03:09] <buxy> sirestart was very positive on this idea, but IIRC he didn't do anything yet or he did something without telling me about it ...
[03:09] <ogra> nah, he's surely busy with revu2 stuff
[03:10] <zakame> tseng: hehe
[03:10] <raphink> ogra: or he's busy with his vacation ;)
[03:10] <ogra> or this, yes :)
[03:10] <raphink> I doubt he's snowboarding with is laptop
[03:10] <Tonio_> anyway, that's very interesting and pleasure to ear :)
[03:10] <Tonio_> it will clarify many questions...
[03:10] <raphink> this is dangerous for both the laptop and himself
[03:11] <ogra> Tonio_, its been discussed on the ML
[03:11] <raphink> ogra: thre are many MLs
[03:11] <raphink> and most users don't read them
[03:11] <raphink> they read the wiki instead
[03:11] <raphink> which is the main source for docs
[03:11] <zakame> yeah I distinctly remember him saying `don't break tiber'
[03:11] <Tonio_> exactly, hard to read all of them ;)
[03:11] <ogra> if i dont say the name in #ubuntu-motu, guess which one i mean
[03:11] <raphink> so we need to document this in the wiki
[03:11] <ogra> :)
[03:11] <raphink> ogra: ;)
[03:11] <raphink> still
[03:12] <buxy> ogra: I can't blame sirestart however, I didn't do anything more on my side neither ...
[03:12] <raphink> ogra: as the manager of the MOTU team and employee (iirc) of canonical, it is only fair that you know the ML and read it
[03:12] <raphink> but this is not everybody's case
[03:12] <ogra> just write down that you have the option to notify utnubu-devel if you want to see your package in debian and that revu2/alioth integration is planned
[03:13] <raphink> ogra: lucas and I are writing a doc on contributing to Debian when packaging for Ubuntu. This is gonna be written for sure
[03:13] <raphink> now that we know about it ;)
[03:13] <ogra> fine
[03:13] <raphink> :)
[03:14] <zakame> raphink: w00t
[03:14] <ogra> i didnt attend the latest motu meeting, so it might have been considered differently ... but that was the consensus i know about ..
[03:14] <raphink> mhm
[03:14] <ogra> to not annoy debian with RFPs and ITPs
[03:15] <raphink> huh?
[03:15] <raphink> then I don't understand anymore
[03:15] <Tonio_> LOL
[03:15] <ogra> and since ubuntu package integration for universe is exactly what utnubu does, thats the right way
[03:15] <raphink> ogra: so when we have a package uploaded from REVU
[03:16] <raphink> we shall notify the utnubu team about it
[03:16] <ogra> nope
[03:16] <raphink> so THEY file the RFP with a already-in-ubuntu tag
[03:16] <ogra> its not mandantory
[03:16] <raphink> right?
[03:16] <raphink> IF I want to do it, that's the way to go, right?
[03:16] <ogra> we always said its optional if or if you dont want your package in debian
[03:16] <ogra> so its up to you, but the right way is to notify utnubu
[03:17] <ogra> they care for ITP and RFP stuff then
[03:17] <raphink> ok thanks
[03:17] <raphink> so IF I want my package in Debian
[03:17] <raphink> I get it on REVU
[03:17] <raphink> and once it's accepted I notify utnubu through the list
[03:17] <ogra> yup
[03:17] <raphink> correct?
[03:17] <raphink> ok
[03:17] <raphink> now I don't want to sound annoying or so
[03:18] <raphink> but we've been told in the last hours
[03:18] <ogra> by whom ?
[03:18] <raphink> that it has been discussed lots of times and agreed
[03:18] <Tonio_> lucas
[03:18] <raphink> yet we got tons of different answers from different people
[03:18] <Tonio_> Riddell, and a few more
[03:18] <ogra> he wasnt even in motu when we discussed it last time
[03:18] <Tonio_> nobody has the same vision
[03:18] <raphink> lucas thinks it's better to get the package sponsored
[03:18] <raphink> Riddell says it's better to file RFPs ourselves
[03:18] <raphink> you think we shall not do anything
[03:19] <raphink> it'd be a great thing if everybody could agreee ;)
[03:19] <ogra> raphink, i can only tell what policys we decided upon in the meetings
[03:19] <raphink> ok
[03:19] <ogra> lucas wanst in motu back then
[03:19] <raphink> is it in the MOTU Minutes?
[03:20] <ogra> i dont know if or why Riddell handles it differently for KDE packages
[03:20] <Riddell> I've had debian people moan that they've dupliated work beacuse they didn't know it was in ubuntu
[03:20] <ogra> and i'm not even sure he was in the meetings back then
[03:20] <tseng> Riddell: it couldnt be much easier to look
[03:20] <ogra> Riddell, exactly, thats why we have utnubu
[03:20] <tseng> you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere
[03:21] <raphink> I think everybody would benefit from a standard way notifying ubtnubu each time
[03:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: You've been pocken with one of my packages, I remember
[03:21] <raphink> imo
[03:21] <buxy> ogra: a meeting decision may be changed ...
[03:21] <ogra> raphink, yes, it must be in the minutes sent to the mailing lists
[03:21] <raphink> both Debian and Ubuntu would benefit from it
[03:21] <ogra> buxy, thats what i said above
[03:21] <Riddell> shrug, like I say I've had debian people complain and an RFP is their way of working with them
[03:22] <tseng> utnubu makes reports of packages in ubuntu not in debian automatically iirc
[03:22] <ogra> buxy, but we had reasons not to put more work on us back then ...
[03:22] <Riddell> tseng: pocken?
[03:22] <buxy> ogra: you can't defer completely on utnubu, you must incite Motu to upload via sponsor if possible, adn give utnubu as an alternative
[03:22] <Riddell> s/tseng/tonio/
[03:22] <ogra> buxy, why ?
[03:22] <tseng> Riddell: if we rolled over to every DD that posted a shot at us on his blog we'd never do anything
[03:22] <Tonio_> Riddell: emailed, a bit agressively ;)
[03:22] <tseng> :/
[03:22] <buxy> ogra: because that's the way to get your package integrated in Debian
[03:23] <ogra> buxy, utnubu has announced itself as *the* path for packages going from ubuntu to debian
[03:23] <buxy> look, utnubu integrated only 2 or 3 packages in Debian
[03:23] <tseng> the mono team tends to get sponsors for packages
[03:23] <ogra> buxy, we agreed on it
[03:23] <ogra> why should we change it now ?
[03:23] <buxy> ogra: right, utnubu can be the "central coordination stuff"
[03:24] <buxy> but utnubu guys should only be sponsors for packages created by Ubuntu MOTU
[03:24] <ogra> buxy, if a technical base for another solution (revu2) exists, thats fine, but for now its putting a lot of workj on our sholders
[03:24] <buxy> and not "maintainers"
[03:24] <ogra> why ?
[03:24] <buxy> because you create the package, it's your job to keep it on shape
[03:24] <ogra> i absolutely dont care whats written in the maintiner field in a ubuntu package ...
[03:25] <Tonio_> are utnubu members DD ?
[03:25] <ogra> since everybody can work on it here
[03:25] <ogra> Tonio_, yes
[03:25] <Tonio_> ogra: k
[03:25] <buxy> ogra: but you should care for "new packages"
[03:25] <ogra> buxy, the maintainer field is irrelevant in ubuntu
[03:26] <ogra> buxy, but its important for debian
[03:26] <buxy> otherwise you will never manager to integrate them in Debian, and you obviously want that for long term maintenance
[03:26] <zakame> hm so how will that go?
[03:27] <buxy> ogra: my position is that MOTUs and wannabe MOTU must be trained to do the best for Ubuntu and Debian cooperation
[03:27] <buxy> after that, if they decide to ignore the recommendation, it's their choice, but the good behaviour should be documented anyway
[03:28] <zakame> buxy: hm will this be credited for NM?
[03:29] <raphink> buxy: totally agree
[03:29] <raphink> buxy: we can't ask the MOTUs and MOTU wanabee to behave properly if they ignore the way to go
[03:30] <raphink> zakame: haha I doubt so
[03:30] <raphink> lol
[03:31] <buxy> zakame: if a MOTU goes in NM later, he can certainly show the work he has done within Utnubu to progress quickly in the process
[03:31] <Tonio_> will the package version freeze this month also concern universe and REVu ?
[03:31] <raphink> zakame: although it would be only fair that just as being a DD is counted as experience and contribution for Ubuntu membership, being an Ubuntu member should be taken in consideration for NM
[03:31] <raphink> logically
[03:32] <zakame> raphink, buxy : ooh
[03:32] <raphink> zakame: aah
[03:32] <raphink> lucas: wiki up again
[03:32] <zakame> w00t
[03:33] <raphink> lucas: i'll let you work on ContributingToDebian again before I work on it
[03:33] <ogra> but you cant account that on maintainer fields in ubuntu
[03:33] <raphink> so we don't mix our work like yesterday
[03:33] <ogra> only on changes
[03:33] <raphink> ogra: ubuntu packagers are not to be maintainers ?
[03:33] <ogra> raphink, maintainer fields are totally irrelevant in ubuntu, as i said above
[03:34] <buxy> ogra: a "new package" created for Ubuntu is done by someone who is proud to have created this package
[03:34] <ogra> the only thing you can count are uploads and chack changes
[03:34] <raphink> that means nobody minds whether I maintain my packages in ubuntu ?
[03:34] <buxy> the person is certainly interested to have his package in Debian
[03:34] <raphink> +1 buxy
[03:34] <raphink> buxy: and to keep his name on his work, somehow
[03:34] <ogra> buxy, i dont care who is in the maintainer field if i judge someones packaging skills, i chack the changes he made to packages regardless who is listed as maintainer
[03:34] <buxy> and with the help of sponsors (coming from Utnubu or for somewhere else), this is possible
[03:35] <raphink> buxy: and to be sure his work is not going to be dumped soon
[03:35] <ogra> and if debian doesnt take that into account for judging NM but look at maintainer fields, they dont understand ubuntu maitenance
[03:35] <buxy> ogra: I speak of "new packages", I don't care what updates you do to the Ubuntu package later on :)
[03:36] <zakame> buxy: I'm certainly proud to have libmemcache go into Sid :)
[03:36] <raphink> zakame: :D
[03:36] <ogra> buxy, and i dont even care for new packages if i judge someone for motuness
[03:36] <ogra> buxy, i'm intrested in packaging skills, not in cdbs or deb-make knowledge
[03:37] <raphink> ogra: it doesn't help people volunteer for contribution if their name is removed from their work
[03:37] <buxy> ogra: you diverge from the discussion then, you recruit MOTU how you want
[03:37] <ogra> i.e. how does someone solve a ftbfs on amd64 in a transition is far more intresting than what did he uncomment in the deb-make template
[03:37] <zakame> still, ogra has a point, packaging skills are indeed a plus
[03:37] <buxy> we're speaking of how MOTU should treat new packages created for Ubuntu, nothing more
[03:37] <lucas> raphink: commited, but I'll do some minor changes and let you know when it's free
[03:38] <raphink> lucas: ok
[03:38] <ogra> raphink, if its their work, thats true, but then we have a communication issue on debians side
[03:38] <ogra> if a DD packaged it new and totally different, then this doesnt apply
[03:38] <raphink> and issues are to be fixed imo, not hidden
[03:39] <ogra> but not through burdening it on MOTU
[03:39] <raphink> ogra: that's why bugs should be filed to Debian, so a DD doens't begin to duplicate the work
[03:39] <ogra> nope
[03:39] <ogra> a DD should also read our bugtracker as we have to do it with the debian bts if we want fixes
[03:39] <raphink> does the Debian policy states so?
[03:39] <zakame> RFP/ITPs with already-in-ubuntu
[03:40] <ogra> if i care for a package, i check the different bts and places where i can fnd patches ...
[03:40] <raphink> does Debian want a minimal diff with Ubuntu? or just Ubuntu with Debian?
[03:40] <ogra> i expect the same from every DD
[03:40] <zakame> perhaps something in the debian bts linking to LP...
[03:40] <ogra> debian doesnt notify me about a new package, i have to find out myself about it ...
[03:41] <ogra> redhat does tis neither
[03:41] <zakame> ogra: true
[03:41] <raphink> but Ubuntu policy is to keep close to Debian
[03:41] <buxy> ogra: Debian developers have enough work to know everything inside Debian to not have time to look after Ubuntu side of things
[03:41] <ogra> so why should i start notifying other distros about my stuff, if i have to look, they should look too
[03:41] <raphink> this is not the case of debian policy
[03:41] <ogra> thats a core part of being a maintainer
[03:41] <tseng> ogra++
[03:41] <buxy> ogra: that's why Utnubu is useful, but Utnubu can't solve it alone
[03:41] <zakame> ogra: hm doesn't packages.qa.d.o allow subscriptions?
 ogra: Debian developers have enough work to know everything inside Debian to not have time to look after Ubuntu side of things
[03:42] <ogra> ??
[03:42] <ogra> why doesnt this apply to ubuntu as well ?
[03:42] <ogra> we have not even 10% of the manpower debian has
[03:42] <ogra> for a bigger amount of packages ...
[03:43] <jsgotangco> ubuntu is relatively small in the os space...
[03:43] <jsgotangco> but its improving
[03:43] <ogra> exactly
[03:43] <buxy> ogra: and ?
[03:43] <ogra> and its not the time to force policys like: if you have a new package do an itp and care for getting it sponsored
[03:43] <raphink> jsgotangco: ubuntu is gaining lost of end users, but not lost of devs
[03:43] <raphink> Debian has more than 10% devs in its community
[03:43] <buxy> it's now that Ubuntu is still small that we must set the good precedent so that Ubuntu/Debian cooperates
[03:43] <raphink> and Ubuntu will never have as many
[03:44] <tseng> buxy: we do cooperate in many places
[03:44] <jsgotangco> raphink, that's why main is only a small subset of what debian has to offer
[03:44] <jsgotangco> universe is an entirely different ballgame
[03:44] <ogra> buxy, and a connection pathg between revu2 and alioth is a fine start for that
[03:44] <ogra> beyond the cooperation thats going on already
[03:45] <buxy> ogra: it's not about "forcing", it's about telling " TRY to do this, this is the best thing, if you can't, then do at least that".
[03:45] <ogra> but making up policys for such stuff that force you to ITP or RFP a package is wrong imho
[03:45] <ogra> and you dotn gain much ...
[03:45] <tseng> ogra: thats not true
[03:45] <tseng> you gain someone not doing stupid stuff with your package in Debian
[03:46] <tseng> it happened to me at least 3 times
[03:46] <ogra> worst case you gain more headdaches because the DD caring for your packag disagrees in a way that incompatible in ubuntu
[03:46] <lucas> I'm done with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[03:46] <lucas> please read and comment here
[03:46] <ogra> tseng, sure, but this knifa has two cutting edges ;)
[03:47] <ogra> it can be fine it can be worse ...
[03:47] <raphink> lucas: ok will do
[03:47] <ogra> so the current way of notifying utnubu and letting them take over the package as a team is fine ... (or notifying the mono team in tsengs case)
[03:48] <ogra> yo dont loose anything in ubuntu thriugh that ...
[03:48] <tseng> we work on alioth svn for mono stuff
[03:48] <tseng> but i certainly cant expect everyone to do that
[03:48] <ogra> exactly ...
[03:49] <ogra> and still your name isnt in the maintainer field :)
[03:49] <tseng> people took all my packages
[03:49] <ogra> even if the packages come from ubuntu only ...
[03:49] <tseng> f-spot, tomboy, beagle..
[03:49] <ogra> yup
[03:49] <tseng> they all have maintainers
[03:49] <tseng> (now)
[03:49] <ogra> isnt it mono-team ?
[03:49] <ogra> lie the gnome-team ...
[03:50] <tseng> sortof
[03:50] <tseng> mono-team has group and non-group packages
[03:50] <tseng> in the same svn.. but non-group has one maintainer
[03:50] <tseng> group = core and libraries
[03:50] <buxy> ogra: if the creator of the package chooses not to join the Debian team, then that's fine, but Ubuntu should inform the creator of how he can reintegrate his work into Debian and explain advantages of that
[03:50] <tseng> non-group = most apps
[03:50] <buxy> in that sense, I hope you will promote the wiki page that lucas redacted
[03:50] <ogra> buxy, again, why ?
[03:51] <raphink> buxy: +1
[03:51] <buxy> ogra: because you're creating a distribution that you want "rock solid" and "maintained in the long term"
[03:51] <ogra> buxy, i dont see a reason to put work that should be done in debian on MOTUs sholders
[03:51] <buxy> that's why you're based on Debian
[03:51] <tseng> eh look at banshee and beagle
[03:52] <buxy> and to make you work sustainable, in the long term, you want to avoid divergence between Debian and Ubuntu
[03:52] <tseng> we had them in universe as YMMV for *months* before they went in debian
[03:52] <tseng> for a reason
[03:52] <tseng> i got burnt on beagle, someone else decided it was "ready" for debian
[03:52] <ogra> buxy, but thats a DDs job ... not a MOTU job, we have enough in the pipe
[03:52] <tseng> banshee we got in when it was ready
[03:52] <buxy> ogra: it's not about FORCING to do the work, but about telling them "this is better, if you can please do it"
[03:53] <ogra> buxy, i dont think its *better*
[03:53] <raphink> buxy: +1
[03:53] <buxy> ogra: DD and MOTU share the same goal of creating a high-quality distribution
[03:53] <ogra> buxy, its an option you have
[03:53] <ogra> yup
[03:53] <raphink> I don't think we want to end up with merges between totally different -1 and -0ubuntu1
[03:53] <raphink> that's wasting time and work
[03:53] <ogra> raphink, you cant avoid it
[03:54] <raphink> ogra: I don't know about "never | can't"
[03:54] <buxy> ogra: the "wannabe MOTU" don't know about this option unless you tell them
[03:54] <ogra> especially not if we all take oer the jobs of the DDs
[03:54] <raphink> I know issues, I'm sure there are solutions
[03:54] <tseng> raphink: when it happens I drop my package and do whatever i need to to the DD package
[03:54] <tseng> raphink: and send him fixes
[03:54] <tseng> its not that big a deal
[03:54] <buxy> ogra: don't exagerate, we're speaking on "new pacakges", it's a minority right now
[03:55] <buxy> and it's not necessarily MOTU's work... it's the work of the creator of the package
[03:55] <buxy> whihc may be sponsored by a MOTU
[03:55] <zakame> hm
[03:55] <raphink> tseng: to me it is, in the sense that two people have been working on the same thing separately, to end up with only one product. One of them could have worked on something else instead. This is Microsoft way of working :p
[03:55] <zakame> which right now we do REVU
[03:56] <raphink> REVU sponsors for Ubuntu only
[03:56] <zakame> yeah, that's what I mean
[03:56] <ogra> raphink, yes, thats what its written for
[03:56] <raphink> yes ogra
[03:57] <ogra> as packages.ubuntu.com shows you ubuntu and not debian packages
[03:57] <raphink> yes
[03:57] <raphink> but when you make new packages for ubuntu, you check p.d.o and p.u.c
[03:57] <ogra> so buxy's way of having the same tool for debian and interaction between the two is a gret effort :)
[03:57] <raphink> and we expect DDs to do the same
[03:57] <zakame> hm isn't that what lucas' list does now? :)
[03:58] <raphink> couldn't there be an interface that would gather both p.d.o and p.u.c to check for the existence of packages in either?
[03:58] <ogra> thats what utnubus tools do since ages
[03:58] <raphink> so it could be used by both DDs and MOTUs
[03:58] <ogra> raphink, write it if youre interested ;)
[03:58] <buxy> raphink: that's the launchpad too
[03:58] <zakame> yes
[03:58] <raphink> then we need to document it
[03:58] <ogra> yes, launchpad wil once offer such stuff
[03:58] <raphink> let packagers know about it
[03:58] <buxy> maybe I could add a link from the Package Tracking System to the Launchpad
[03:58] <lucas> the problem here is that debian is the root of the tree, and ubuntu is a leaf
[03:59] <raphink> both in Ubuntu and in Debian
[03:59] <raphink> what's the use of a tool if people who need it don't know about it?
[03:59] <zakame> buxy: that would be neat
[03:59] <lucas> ubuntu is not the only debian derivative
[03:59] <ogra> lucas, wrong view
[03:59] <raphink> lucas: tell me what Linspire or Xandros bring to Debian ?
[03:59] <lucas> you can't expect the root to look at all leafs.
[04:00] <Tonio_> raphink: I don't agree, Linspire brings unstability and bad spirit
 ubuntu is not the only debian derivative <--- ubuntu is the only debian derivative that aims to bringing back to Debian
[04:00] <lucas> I dunno, because they are doing the idiot thing of not contributing much to debian
[04:00] <ogra> lucas, and with smart in dapper+1 debian wont be the only root
[04:00] <Tonio_> which is a great effort in a certain way ;)
[04:00] <raphink> Tonio_: LOL
[04:00] <lucas> ogra: s/wont/might not/
[04:00] <lucas> smart is still vaporware
[04:00] <dholbach> what exactly are you trying to discuss?
[04:00] <ogra> we offer all our patches and changes public
[04:01] <dholbach> lucas: smart works nicely
[04:01] <ogra> its the DDs job to dig them
[04:01] <Gloubiboulga> hi
[04:01] <ogra> lucas, smart is in dapper
[04:01] <lucas> dholbach: we are not really discussing, just trolling
[04:01] <zakame> heya Gloubiboulga
[04:01] <ogra> and will be the default in dapper+1
[04:01] <buxy> ogra: what is smart ?
[04:01] <ogra> lucas, not really
[04:01] <dholbach> lucas: nice
[04:01] <zakame> ogra: smart?
[04:01] <dholbach> buxy: apt-cache show smartpm
[04:01] <zakame> ah
[04:02] <dholbach> ogra: we're "aiming for smart" for dapper+1 :)
[04:02] <raphink> dholbach: this is an interesting question. I find it interesting that after hours discussing this subject we haven't reached the Godwin point yet.
[04:02] <dholbach> raphink: you're a nazi? ;)
[04:02] <raphink> dholbach: ;)
[04:02] <ogra> dholbach, then gustavo would be payd for nothing
[04:02] <raphink> nooo
[04:02] <raphink> you ruined it all
[04:02] <raphink> two days of constant discussions on here
[04:02] <dholbach> raphink: i wanted to speed it up :)
[04:02] <raphink> ;)
[04:03] <ogra> raphink, useless discussion
[04:03] <raphink> dholbach: :
[04:03] <ogra> raphink, we had a dedcision about thet topic months ago
[04:03] <lucas> well, please at least comment on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[04:03] <raphink> ogra: many of us weren't there
[04:03] <dholbach> let's all calm down and be focused on what's directly ahead of us :)
[04:03] <ogra> raphink, feel free to bring it up on the next MOTU meeting then
[04:03] <buxy> ogra: you're really not friendly to make things go forward
[04:04] <raphink> and it seems the conclusoins of this talk wasn't documented enough
[04:04] <raphink> since we had to talk about it again
[04:04] <ogra> but dont discuss it just randomly in he channel
[04:04] <buxy> "shut up, we decided it this way, come on later"
[04:04] <raphink> ogra: we're not talking randomly
[04:04] <raphink> ogra: at least lucas and I have been taking notes and trying to document the way it is
[04:04] <raphink> so that's not talking randomly without a support
[04:04] <ogra> buxy, i'm only careful and we already discussed this topic over several meetings
[04:05] <raphink> there's no need for official meetings to make things go forward
[04:05] <ogra> raphink, but just making a desicion over the head of others isnt either
[04:05] <raphink> otherwise it wouldn't go forward often ;)
[04:05] <raphink> sure ogra
[04:05] <raphink> we're just trying to
[04:05] <raphink> 1) understand the way it is now
[04:05] <buxy> ogra: when I read what you write, it looks like you'd be happy to go away with Debian and continue alone, ie you don't really care on what Ubuntu is based
[04:05] <raphink> 2) understand the existing options today
[04:05] <raphink> 3) document this all
[04:06] <ogra> raphink, there are minutes of every MOTU meeting we ever had on the MLs
[04:06] <ogra> buxy, thats not true
[04:06] <raphink> ogra: I'm not paid to read the minutes when I search for an info, sorry
[04:06] <raphink> and I don't expect new packagers to read the MOTU minutes when the want an info
[04:07] <raphink> a great thing about Ubuntu is its doc
[04:07] <raphink> and the Ubuntu community can be proud of it
[04:07] <spacey_ki> ogra, ldm (dapper chroot) doesn't log in.
[04:07] <spacey_ki> oh
[04:07] <raphink> eventually, we might document Debian better than Debian itself
[04:07] <spacey_ki> wrong channel
[04:07] <raphink> ;)
[04:07] <ogra> buxy, i just see that we have ~30 MOTUs and probably 20 wannabes that still have to care for ~100 packages before UVF and debian has about 1000 maintainers for a lesser amount and you guys want to put work into MOTU that doesnt belong here
[04:08] <lucas> ogra: doing a little more work on our side now is a big win in the future
[04:08] <lucas> we can't keep diverging
[04:08] <raphink> ogra: we guys want to be sure we're not working on REVU stuff only to get to work on merging totally different versions of the package in a week
[04:08] <lucas> there are 150 packages waiting manual action from MOTUs
[04:08] <ogra> lucas, the workload is wrong weigthed
[04:09] <lucas> and 900 with are different from the debian version
[04:09] <buxy> ogra: you're too involved in the daily work, you need to see the whole picture
[04:09] <jsgotangco> (there's only 1 guy doing syncs for starters)
[04:09] <ogra> buxy, i see the picture of a DD who cares for lets say 5 packages in a whole
[04:09] <ogra> buxy, and a isee 50 ppl caring for ~17000 packages
[04:10] <lucas> jsgotangco: note that syncs are probably handled by a script ;)
[04:10] <ogra> buxy, so where is my pic wrong ?
[04:10] <lucas> ogra: we just can't care for 17000 packages
[04:10] <lucas> that's why we must avoid divergence
[04:10] <ogra> lucas, thats what MOTU does
[04:10] <buxy> ogra: it's wrong, because you don't take care of 17000 packages, you mainly take care of what diverges
[04:11] <buxy> and the more you diverge, the more you have work
[04:11] <buxy> and thus you should aim at not diverging
[04:11] <ogra> buxy, if a package ftbfs's MOTU has to care
[04:11] <buxy> and thus you should aim to reintegrate your work into Debian
[04:11] <zakame> re: merging, can I help my fellow MOTUs on their assigned merges (even is it is now so)
[04:11] <zakame> ?
[04:11] <ogra> no matter if its in the "selected set"
[04:12] <lucas> zakame: what do you mean ?
[04:12] <ogra> buxy, if fixing the ftbfs of an important library pulls a transition in, MOTU has to care too
[04:13] <ogra> buxy, we have to care for 17000 packages, even if we ont touch them all
[04:13] <buxy> ogra: yes but again, the FTFS can come from the divergence you create, or from a bug oif the Debian package, in both cases, working with Debian is avoiding unneeded work in the future
[04:13] <dholbach> it'd be nice, if we had more interaction between ubuntu and debian, but we should aim to not let this eat up our time or distract our focus - those processes should be light-headed and we shouldn't have to 'rely' on the outcome of them
[04:13] <ogra> dholbach+++
[04:13] <dholbach> and i see the problem of merging, etc too
[04:13] <buxy> dholbach: agreed, this is completely understandable
[04:13] <lucas> ogra: necessary divergence != divergence caused by missing actions on the MOTU side
[04:13] <ogra> i see the revu2 attempt of buxy and siretart as the right way
[04:14] <zakame> lucas: still, syncs are checked I think
[04:14] <zakame> lucas: elmo does the syncing, and he does check it ;)
[04:15] <zakame> I did a sync request once for a pkg already synced, and he knows :)
[04:15] <dholbach> i see one good solution: more teams who work/talk with their debian counterparts
[04:15] <zakame> dholbach: indeed
[04:15] <jsgotangco> resistance is futile!
[04:16] <buxy> dholbach, ogra: you're paid by Canonical to keep universe in a good shape and organize the MOTU stuff ?
[04:16] <ogra> buxy, nope
[04:16] <zakame> I <3 Ubuntu and I <3 Debian, so I cry when they clash :P
[04:16] <tseng> buxy: they are paid to do so much else that they barely have time for universe.
[04:16] <ogra> buxy, canonical doesnt pay anybody for universe stuff
[04:16] <dholbach> buxy: i mainly work on Desktop and community stuff
[04:16] <jsgotangco> dholbach is our gnome crack master
[04:17] <dholbach> buxy: but i do care about MOTU
[04:17] <ogra> me as well
[04:17] <zakame> dholbach: which reminds me, I should get in touch with pkg-java
[04:17] <dholbach> i'd love to have more teams
[04:17] <ogra> we were both MOTUs *before* we got hired
[04:17] <dholbach> i think else we can't cope with the rising pile of bugs :)
[04:18] <buxy> dholbach, ogra: OK, but please don't handle MOTU volunteers like you're handled by Canonical
[04:19] <ogra> buxy, i handle MOTU voluteers as i always did, and i dont think i handle them wrong
[04:19] <dholbach> buxy: i'm not quite sure, what you mean, but I treat them as Ubuntu-loving volunteers. is that ok? :-)
[04:19] <buxy> I mean MOTU volunteers are like DD, they're working for the ubuntu and the free software, and telling them to cooperate with Debian will not reduce their capacity to do Ubuntu work
[04:20] <raphink> on the contrary maybe buxy
[04:20] <ogra> sure, i always tell wannabees that there is the opportunity to get your stuff into debian
[04:20] <dholbach> buxy: i won't tell people what they have to do - but if we are to write down policies, i try to keep some different things in mind
[04:20] <buxy> they make their own choice, but they need to be told the various possible choices, with the advantages and disadvantages of each side
[04:20] <raphink> cooperate with Debian might be a way to better understand Ubuntu
[04:20] <dholbach> buxy: i agree
[04:21] <raphink> buxy: +1
[04:21] <tseng> raphink: -1, thats tired
[04:21] <raphink> tseng: ?
[04:21] <ogra> buxy, sure but you wont see me telling anybody you *have to* or *you should* file an ITP
[04:22] <tseng> its sort of like watching a DD blow up when you tell them they need to use a new RCS
[04:22] <ogra> buxy, surely i'll tell wannabes of the advantages and disadvantages, but i still see it as a job of a DD to care for his package
[04:22] <buxy> ogra: you don't need to tell them directly, just point the them to the wiki page that lucas wrote
[04:22] <buxy> it's there for that purpose
[04:22] <hub> hi a;ll
[04:23] <dholbach> we have to be careful with making things "requirements", but documentation is absolutely good to have
[04:23] <buxy> ogra: we're speaking of new packages without DD ... :-))
[04:23] <ogra> buxy, so for dapper+1 you guys will also document this for redhat and suse ?
[04:23] <zakame> heya hub
[04:23] <ogra> since we wont strictly be bound to debian anymore then ?
[04:24] <jsgotangco> brb
[04:24] <lucas> ogra: this won't happen.
[04:24] <ogra> lucas, its planned
[04:24] <lucas> it is not what smartpm is about
[04:24] <Tonio_> buxy, couldn't that be considered like DD's job to come and look for packages that could be included into debian ?
[04:24] <ogra> npe, but launchpad
[04:24] <Tonio_> making a diff between the two package list and have a look
[04:24] <lucas> ubuntu is far from having the workpower to maintain everything on their own
[04:25] <lucas> if ubuntu does this, it will just become as crappy as Mandriva
[04:25] <buxy> ogra: sorry I dodn't know enough about smartpm but I have seen similar projects in the past, and nothing ever come out of them, so wait & see is my opinion on this one
[04:25] <ogra> lucas, exactly ... thats why we will be able to pull from different other roots in the future
[04:25] <ogra> buxy, smartpm will only be the frontend ...
[04:26] <lucas> Tonio_: you can't consider Debian and Ubuntu at the same level
[04:26] <ogra> the tool is launchpad ...
[04:26] <lucas> Tonio_: Ubuntu is not the only debian-based distribution
[04:26] <Tonio_> lucas, I absolutly don't
[04:26] <buxy> Tonio_: DD who are part of Utnubu made this choice, yes, but DD are volunteers and you can't force anything on DD :-)
[04:26] <Tonio_> buxy: I don't about forcing
[04:26] <ogra> buxy, as MOTU are voluneers ;)
[04:26] <zakame> ogra: cool! :)
[04:26] <Tonio_> but couldn't things be organised like this :
[04:27] <Tonio_> debian -> ubuntu done by motus
[04:27] <buxy> ogra: I know, there's nothing impossible between volunteers ... they can nevertheless cooperate
[04:27] <ogra> buxy, sure
[04:27] <Tonio_> ubuntu (REVU) -> debian done by volontary DDs
[04:27] <buxy> but both sides must do some steps in each other's direction
[04:27] <Tonio_> with the best level of automation tomake things quick and clean ?
[04:27] <ogra> buxy, and i see it happen with yours and siretarts initiative
[04:28] <ogra> but i also see that valuable worktime goes into pointless discussions since two days
[04:28] <ogra> wile there are lots of packages that wont get upgraded in 3 yers after UVF
[04:29] <buxy> Tonio_: that's already how things are, but the bordeline will never be so clean. Some MOTU are DD. Some MOTU are Debian maintainers (without being official DD).
[04:29] <buxy> And we're trying to document/formalize the various cases that can exist at the borderline
[04:31] <ogra> with the cost of packages being left behind ...
[04:31] <ogra> thats a task for a motu meeting where everybody is notified before and can tell his opinion
[04:31] <buxy> ogra: on my side, the time spent here is time that I should have spent working for money, so it's a money-loss for me ... (I'm my own boss in my own company)
[04:32] <ogra> its not a thing that should just be done in the channel at a random time
[04:32] <zakame> so when is the motu-meeting? :)
[04:32] <ogra> buxy, thats your decision :)
[04:32] <buxy> ogra: volunteers discuss thing when they want, you're free to not join the discussion
[04:32] <ogra> buxy, yes, but we once haldled it less unfair
[04:33] <ogra> there are many people not been around the last two days, they might have an opinion to tell thats why we have meetings
[04:35] <buxy> sure, but the meeting can also acknowledge work done by interested parties
[04:35] <ogra> after its done ?
[04:35] <buxy> yes
[04:35] <buxy> that's how free software works
[04:35] <ogra> thats not how we worked the last 18 months, but feel free to change it
[04:35] <buxy> people do things, other people tell this is great, go look at it, things become eventually official at the end
[04:36] <buxy> seomtime things are done and lost, because it wasn't terribly good, that's the life
[04:36] <ogra> i.e. we made decisions as a whole and talked about stuff  instead of providing undiuscussed finished work
[04:37] <ogra> it worked quite well the last releases ...
[04:38] <buxy> ogra: for developing Ubuntu it's great to organize the work of paid guys
[04:39] <ogra> buxy, dont mix up this stuff please
[04:39] <buxy> ogra: no attack in my sentence
[04:39] <ogra> my work for canonical has nothing to do with my MOTU work
[04:40] <ogra> and i didnt change my attitude to MOTU since i was hired ...
[04:40] <zakame> well regular meetings should really work, since it brings everyone up-to-date and threshes out the bits, just like this one ;)
[04:40] <buxy> ogra: anyway, meeting are good, but they are not a reason to close discussion between meetings
[04:41] <ogra> buxy, thats not what i said
[04:41] <ogra> but just doing stuff in a team without notifying the others that might want to contribute to this discussion isnt really team friendly
[04:43] <raphink> hmm
[04:43] <ogra> at least if its stuff that applies for everyone in the team
[04:43] <raphink> we're talking, trying to understand some things, document stuff, etc.
[04:43] <raphink> we're not taking any decision so far
[04:43] <raphink> the result of this talk is documentation
[04:43] <raphink> that might, if well done, be the base of meetings later on
[04:44] <raphink> if required
[04:44] <buxy> ogra: no need to have a meeting, to decide to create some new content in the wiki :-)
[04:44] <ogra> yes, but putting on a meetin before this would be nice to make others know that you will do it ... if someone disagrees, he has at least the opportunity to do so
[04:45] <raphink> hmm ogra
[04:45] <raphink> should be a meeting be held when we want to document a difficult point?
[04:45] <raphink> just to write a wiki page on a sensible point?
[04:45] <ogra> for a point that applies to everyone, that would be nice ...
[04:45] <raphink> ok
[04:45] <buxy> ogra: the meeting would have brought nothing, as the discussion would have taken much longer than the meeting itself
[04:46] <raphink> yes
[04:46] <raphink> this discussion has been going on for about 15 hours now
[04:46] <raphink> and hasn't really been telling the same things oever and over, but adding to it
[04:46] <raphink> this is a vast subject
[04:46] <ogra> if you write some docs like PbuilderHowto thats something different, but something that might become our policy later is different
[04:46] <zakame> WHOA
[04:47] <ogra> buxy, you can dicuss later on ... its just that the meeting brings it to the attention of everyone
[04:48] <raphink> it'll be easier to be discussed in a meeting if there's already a wiki page summing up the issue and the existing options
[04:48] <buxy> ogra: check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[04:48] <buxy> this is "information", it's not "policy"
[04:48] <zakame> raphink: well, like a spec ;)
[04:49] <raphink> zakame: kinda maybe
[04:49] <buxy> however making that page known & accepted in the Ubuntu community benefits both Debian and Ubuntu
[04:49] <ogra> buxy, but it applies to everybody "tell newbies there is this opportunity" and might become policy later
[04:50] <Kyral> Morning MOTU
[04:50] <raphink> if it is found out that this opportunity benefits to everybody, then it's good that it becomes policy later
[04:50] <raphink> hi Kyral
[04:50] <raphink> ogra: but the current goal is not to make it policy at all
[04:51] <raphink> just to list the options for newbies to be informed
[04:51] <zakame> heya Kyral
[05:26] <Gloubiboulga> someone has some time to review this: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1362 ?
[05:26] <Gloubiboulga> Riddell has advocated it :) (thanks Riddell)
[05:52] <ajmitch> hm, plenty of hot air in here today
[05:53] <ogra_ibook> nahh
[05:53] <ogra_ibook> just valuable discussion
[05:53] <raphink> hehe
[05:53] <ajmitch> I'm sure..
[05:53] <ogra_ibook> but we should have a motu-meeting soon i guess :)
[05:53] <raphink> ajmitch, ogra_ibook https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian
[05:53] <ajmitch> yes I saw it
[05:54] <ajmitch> you've given that url at least 3 times :)
[05:54] <raphink> hehe
[05:55] <raphink> not me, lucas did I think ;)
[05:56] <zakame> heya ajmitch :)
[05:56] <ajmitch> hi zakame
[05:56] <ajmitch> raphink: it has some good points
[05:57] <raphink> haha
[05:57] <ajmitch> that's funny?
[05:57] <ajmitch> hm
[05:57] <raphink> yes, the way you said it ;)
[05:58] <raphink> `it has some good point' implies you have to search for them among the other stuff ;)
[05:58] <raphink> to me
[05:58] <ajmitch> there are some things there that are wrong
[05:58] <raphink> ajmitch: i'd be happy that you tell us which ones :)
[05:59] <ajmitch> "Contributing your work to Debian is just what you should do ethically speaking. If you don't understand that, you probably shouldn't be developing Free Software."
[05:59] <ajmitch> ie, contribute to debian or you're just a loser..
[05:59] <zakame> ooh my pbuilder updating is almost complete, on dialup :)
[05:59] <lucas> I'll make it softer
[05:59] <ajmitch> the tone of that sentence is aggravating to put it mildly
[05:59] <ajmitch> assuming that a debian maintainer will adopt whatever you put up as an RFP
[06:00] <raphink> ajmitch: yes agreed on this part
[06:00] <zakame> gaah
[06:00] <ogra_ibook> lucas, why not having a meeting and work out the fine tuning there ...
[06:00] <ajmitch> and it really really is a good idea to be running debian to file bugs on it
[06:00] <raphink> ajmitch: yes, with a chroot for ex
[06:00] <zakame> ajmitch: indeed
[06:00] <lucas> ajmitch: buxy read it and didn't objected to that
[06:00] <ajmitch> I think I'll have a proper debian install on there
[06:01] <ajmitch> lucas: that's wonderful, but I'm objecting to it now :)
[06:01] <ajmitch> then again it is 6AM here
[06:02] <raphink> lucas: maybe we can add a link to the chroot WikiPage to install a sid chroot and report bugs from within
[06:02] <lucas> ajmitch: buxy has been part of Debian QA for years. I'd say that if he doesn't mind, it's ok, don't you think ?
[06:03] <lucas> raphink: what's the exact name of the page ?
[06:03] <lucas> [17:59:48]  <ajmitch> assuming that a debian maintainer will adopt whatever you put up as an RFP <= fixed
[06:03] <zakame> ajmitch: w00t!
[06:04] <raphink> lucas: DebootstrapChroot
[06:04] <ajmitch> zakame: ?
[06:04] <buxy> ajmitch: I'm running Ubuntu on my laptop, but I still do Debian work in a chroot :)
[06:04] <ajmitch> lucas: sure, feel free to ignore anything I say
[06:04] <zakame> ajmitch: re: new laptop
[06:05] <ajmitch> buxy: that's how I've been working lately too
[06:05] <buxy> lucas: I would rewrite the sentence to me more clear anyway, the idea is "forward bugs that also apply" to Debian.
[06:05] <lucas> ajmitch: aren't we allowed to sometimes disagree ?
[06:05] <ajmitch> lucas: oh we do
[06:06] <buxy> Forwarding bugs that "might apply" should be done with care.
[06:06] <ogra_ibook> :)
[06:07] <ogra_ibook> the bugs part should take malone into account, its not mentianed at all and will (for most it already does) obsolete most of the steps you describe there
[06:07] <ogra_ibook> *mentioned
[06:08] <ogra_ibook> i.e. bugs should always be reported to malone and get an upstream link to debian bts
[06:08] <ajmitch> I'm not sure if malone will file bugs in debian's BTS or not
[06:09] <ajmitch> It may do, one day
[06:09] <ogra_ibook> it will
[06:09] <lucas> Some things to keep in mind:
[06:09] <lucas>  * Forwarding bugs that ''might apply'' to Debian should be done with care. If you haven't checked throughtly that Debian was affected, don't file the bug or mention it in the bug report. The Debian maintainer will probably be very angry if you report a bug impossible to reproduce on Debian ! If unsure, ask a Debian user to try to reproduce it, or set up a Debian chroot on your computer (see DebootstrapChroot).
[06:09] <lucas> ajmitch: you prefer it this way ?
[06:09] <ogra_ibook> i think the mail interface already does since ubz
[06:09] <buxy> lucas: it's better
[06:09] <ajmitch> lucas: probably not a good idea to write about the maintainer being very angry though :)
[06:10] <lucas> ok, i'll drop that
[06:10] <ajmitch> it's just that there are often bugs that appear to be in one package that end up being the fault of another
[06:11] <lucas> Some things to keep in mind:
[06:11] <lucas>  * Always mention that you are running Ubuntu, not Debian.
[06:11] <lucas>  * Forwarding bugs that ''might apply'' to Debian should be done with care. If you haven't checked throughtly that Debian was affected, don't file the bug or mention it in the bug report. If unsure, ask a Debian user to try to reproduce it, or set up a Debian chroot on your computer (see DebootstrapChroot).
[06:11] <ajmitch> throughtly->thoroughly
[06:12] <ajmitch> looks better though
[06:13] <lucas> so you see, I'm not always ignoring what you says :-)
[06:13] <ogra_ibook> "Debian has a lot of users who will be interested in your package. Your package will get good press (Debian Weekly News for example), and also good bug reports, because the Debian user community is very well educated."
[06:13] <ogra_ibook> hmm, ubuntu users are not well educated ??
[06:13] <ajmitch> heh
[06:13] <ajmitch> no, we're all slack-jawed yokels round these parts
[06:14] <ogra_ibook> damn, we do a distro from idiots for idiots ...
[06:14] <zakame> gahh
[06:14] <lucas> ogra: would you describe the ubuntu user community as "very well educated" ?
[06:14] <hub> ogra_ibook: that is dcc
[06:15] <ogra_ibook> lucas, parts of it, yes, as i would do it for *parts* of the debian community
[06:15] <ogra_ibook> hub, haha
[06:15] <zakame> heh we service our users better :P
[06:15] <buxy> lucas: s/,because .*/ from the big Debian user community/
[06:15] <lucas> ok
[06:16] <lucas> for example, I think that the percentage of users able to understand "s/,because .*/ from the big Debian user community/" is much higher in debian than in ubuntu ;)
[06:17] <buxy> :)
[06:17] <ogra_ibook> and that is a inidicator for a good bug report ?
[06:17] <lucas> you first complain was about "very well educated"
[06:17] <ogra_ibook> good boog reports because debian users are better educated ...
[06:18] <buxy> lucas: ogra meant that knowing regexp doesn't help writing good bug reports :)
[06:18] <ogra_ibook> thats why i should push my package to debian ?

[06:19] <lucas> I fixed it as buxy suggested
[06:19] <buxy> ogra_ibook: would you please calm down ? you're constantly trying to increase the flame level in the discussion
[06:19] <ogra_ibook> between the lines i read: why do you package for ubuntu at all ? if its ethically incorrect not to push it up all the time, you get better bugreports in debian because ubuntu users are dumb ...
[06:19] <ogra_ibook> i dont
[06:20] <lucas> I do think it is 'ethically incorrect not to push it up'
[06:20] <buxy> ogra_ibook: that's why you review is important, now the text is better suited to be read & understood by both parties
[06:20] <ogra_ibook> but this whole page is pretty unpolite worded please look it over
[06:20] <lucas> but I might be a bit pedantic about ethics ;)
[06:20] <buxy> ogra_ibook: you're exagerating, what else do you see ?
[06:21] <lucas> ogra: sorry to be being such a good english writer as you are
[06:21] <lucas> please enlight me
[06:21] <ajmitch> ogra_ibook: why else do you think I've made some suggestions? :)
[06:21] <ogra_ibook> ajmitch, i'm trying too
[06:21] <lucas> s/sorry to be being/sorry to not being/
[06:21] <ajmitch> I know
[06:22] <ogra_ibook> just try to formulate it that i dont feel i'm an evil guy if i dont push my stuff back to debian
[06:23] <ajmitch> but you are evil! you're using an ibook! :)
[06:23] <ogra_ibook> ... or that i feel i'm a dumb user if i use ubuntu instead of debian...
[06:23] <lucas> please try to suggest changes then
[06:23] <lucas> I'm open to suggestions :-)
[06:23] <zakame> lol
[06:23] <ogra_ibook> lucas, i dont want to rewrite it
[06:23] <lucas> then what do you want ,
[06:23] <lucas> ?
[06:23] <ogra_ibook> i wouldnt have started this page at all without a broader discussion first ...
[06:25] <ogra_ibook> either in a meeting or through the ML ...
[06:25] <lucas> without support, the discussion would have turned out as a flamewar
[06:26] <ajmitch> why do you assume we'd have to resort to flames?
[06:27] <lucas> because that's what has been going on today here ? ;)
[06:27] <zakame> there's no need for fire
[06:27] <ajmitch> you think this was flames? :)
[06:27] <ogra_ibook> i didnt see any flame here, sorry
[06:27] <lucas> from the beginning to "Forwarding bug reports", do you still see something impolite/untrue/unsuited/etc ?
[06:27] <raphink> lucas: I have not really seen a flamewar here today... an animated discussion for sure... but no flameware
[06:27] <raphink> war
[06:28] <lucas> I reread carefully and didn't find anything to change
[06:28] <zakame> nothing here, move along, just agitated discussion, nothing fancy ;)
[06:29] <ogra_ibook> the "how to do it part looks ok"
[06:29] <ogra_ibook> i'd put REVU to the top though
 i'd put REVU to the top though <= I'm not sure I understand what you mean
[06:31] <lucas> I added to the part of the developers reference documenting bug severities
[06:34] <ogra_ibook> grmbl
[06:35] <lucas> [18:30:06]  <lucas> <ogra_ibook> i'd put REVU to the top though <= I'm not sure I understand what you mean
[06:35] <ogra_ibook> "After reading this page, you might think that REVU is useless, and should not be used." thats a very negative introduction for the paragraph
[06:35] <ogra_ibook> i'd put the whole paragraph to the top and rather point out that revu is a nice thing without negative sentences :)
[06:35] <ogra_ibook> top == top of the section
[06:36] <ogra_ibook> as a motu i have used revu a lot, why should i think its bad after reading this page, i know its good ...
[06:36] <ogra_ibook> probably just leave it out completely
[06:37] <raphink> this page is not for MOTUs who know REVU well already
[06:37] <ogra_ibook> err, for whom is it ?
[06:37] <raphink> rather for new packagers who might not see the use of REVU really after seeing that it's good to contribute to Debian directly
[06:38] <lucas> well, the page might lead some people to thinking "what's the point in packaging with ubuntu in mind then ? I could just package for debian using debian-mentors"
[06:38] <ogra_ibook> new packagers are busy with learning packging, this giving back part should come if you know about it
[06:38] <ogra_ibook> s/it/packaging/
[06:38] <jeld> hello all
[06:39] <ogra_ibook> lucas, yes, it looks a bit like an advertisement for debian-mentors
[06:39] <ajmitch> buxy: what cooperation has siretart discussed with you about revu?
[06:39] <ogra_ibook> ajmitch, its on the ML ...
[06:39] <zakame> true
[06:39] <ajmitch> ogra_ibook: yes, but which list?
[06:40] <ajmitch> motu? mentors? utnubu? :)
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> ajmitch, a project that interconnects alioth with revu2
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> ajmitch, motu ...
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> and utnubu
[06:40] <ajmitch> alioth itself?
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> nah, not the whole of alioth indeed
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> :)
[06:41] <jeld> I was browsing the UniverseCandidates list and found that crafty is on the list. I have created the packages for crafty and books and uploaded to my site. What next?
[06:43] <ajmitch> see wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU to submit it for review
[06:43] <lfittl> jeld: upload them to REVU (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU) ;)
[07:12] <segfault> should i use dchroot or pbuilder?
[07:13] <zakame> segfault: for?
[07:13] <segfault> build packages in a separated environment
[07:13] <ogra_ibook> for building use pbuilder
[07:14] <ogra_ibook> for testing use dchroot if you dont want to run dapper on your main system
[07:14] <dholbach> can somebody give me the link for the announce of the revu mails?
[07:14] <zakame> for both use pbuilder in a dchroot
[07:14] <ogra_ibook> zakame, why ?
[07:14] <ogra_ibook> i mean, why should i run pbuilder in a chroot ...
[07:15] <segfault> i'm using dapper atm.
[07:15] <segfault> should i build the package for breezy or dapper?
[07:15] <ajmitch> dholbach: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2005-December/000057.html
[07:15] <ogra_ibook> so if you dont care to clutter your system with libs you only need for testing the package, you can test it directly
[07:15] <ogra_ibook> for dapper
[07:15] <ogra_ibook> unless you aim to go for the backports team
[07:16] <dholbach> ajmitch: merci beaucoup
[07:16] <zakame> ogra_ibook: in my case, its convenient, since the inside pbuilder can use the dchroot's cache, as I want to save bandwidth, on dialup ;)
[07:16] <ajmitch> de rien
[07:16] <segfault> but every time i build a package with pbuilder, it'll uncompress the tarball, make it... its kinda slow to do this every time
[07:17] <ogra_ibook> zakame, ah, you didnt talk about caching :)
[07:17] <ajmitch> zakame: apt-proxy, or using the aptcache that pbuilder has
[07:17] <ogra_ibook> segfault, you can use a chroot for building, but its more work to keep it clean
[07:17] <ogra_ibook> segfault, i prefer the patient any lazy way ...
[07:18] <ogra_ibook> but its up to you
[07:18] <segfault> hehe, ok
[07:18] <zakame> ajmitch: aptcache
[07:18] <segfault> if i make a new package, which is lsted in UniverseCandidates, it'll go for breezy or dapper?
[07:18] <ajmitch> dapper
[07:19] <ajmitch> dapper is in development, so it's the only one that gets new packages
[07:19] <segfault> after dapper release, it'll recieve only updates on those packages?
[07:19] <ajmitch> only really critical updates
[07:19] <ogra_ibook> s7updates/fixes/
[07:20] <ogra_ibook> ;)
[07:20] <ajmitch> I meant that :)
[07:20] <segfault> hum, ok, thanks
[07:20] <dholbach> Could everybody who'd like to be a MOTU soon, play a question-and-answer game with me in a query please?
[07:20] <ajmitch> dholbach: do I count?
[07:20] <dholbach> sure
[07:20] <zakame> dholbach: _o/
[07:23] <dholbach> that's all? just ajmitch and zakame?
[07:24] <ajmitch> and we're already MOTUs
[07:24] <ajmitch> sigh
[07:24] <ajmitch> does that mean we're not eligible for the prizes?
[07:25] <dholbach> you definitely are
[07:25] <segfault> i can
[07:25] <ajmitch> ok
[07:25] <zakame> hehe
[07:25] <ogra_ibook> prizes ????
[07:25] <ogra_ibook> what can one win ?
[07:25] <segfault> a hug.
[07:26] <zakame> w00t
[07:26] <jamessan> dholbach's gonna fly out here and give me a hug if I win? cool!
[07:26] <ajmitch> a round of drinks?
[07:26] <dholbach> jamessan: where do I have to land to hug you?
[07:26] <jamessan> Boston
[07:26] <ogra_ibook> jamessan, nope, you have to come to the next conference to pick it up :)
[07:26] <jamessan> aww
[07:26] <dholbach> jamessan: you fancy to answer some questions too? :)
[07:27] <jamessan> sure, although I don't plan on doing the MOTU thing anytime soon.
[07:28] <zakame> W00T! pbuilder create done, in 2 1/2 hours :P
[07:28] <ajmitch> ouch
[07:30] <segfault> do you guys use cdbs?
[07:30] <zakame> indeed, and 'tis 2 in the morning here :P
[07:30] <zakame> segfault: I'm giving it a try tomorrow :)
[07:30] <ajmitch> segfault: I do
[07:35] <segfault> lintian doesn'tt like me.
[07:36] <segfault> whiprush: roundcube: unknown-section universe/web
[07:36] <segfault>  W: roundcube: unknown-section universe/web
[07:36] <segfault> why there is no section universe/web?
[07:36] <ajmitch> drop the universe part
[07:36] <segfault> hum, ok
[07:38] <zakame> np :)
[07:39] <dholbach> ajmitch, zakame: you rock - thanks!
[07:39] <dholbach> anybody else?
[07:40] <dholbach> anybody wants to review http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUReportDraft - it's just a quick sketch yet
[07:41] <ajmitch> heh
[07:42] <segfault> usin cdbs, how do i put (the cdbs way) the package files under debian/package/?
[07:42] <ajmitch> man dh_install
[07:43] <ajmitch> you need to have packagename.install files
[07:43] <segfault> k
[07:45] <Q-FUNK> hi
[07:45] <dholbach> please add some more stuff to the MOTUReportDraft - all the new people in here :)
[07:46] <Q-FUNK> could someone sync rus-ispell from debian/unstable please?
[07:46] <ogra_ibook> did you testbuild it on ubuntu ?
[07:47] <Q-FUNK> it should build just fine.
[07:47] <ogra_ibook> it should or it does ?
[07:48] <Q-FUNK> I don't hav eenough hard-disk space for a dapper chroot.
[07:48] <Q-FUNK> but basically, the diff on the old ubuntu version was strictly about going ahead with packaging an newer version that what debian had.
[07:48] <segfault> hehe, i guess i'll show up in the next MOTUReport
[07:49] <lucas> is UVF still Jan 14th ?
[07:49] <Q-FUNK> since then, I have taken over rus-ispell maintenance, packaged a newer upstream release and cleaned up the packaging. there should not be any reason to diff anything for dapper, at this point.
[07:50] <dholbach> ogra_ibook, Q-FUNK: shouldn't it be autosynced?
[07:50] <Q-FUNK> dholbach: my understanding is that if ubuntu had any own diff, then it needs to be manually synced?
[07:50] <ogra_ibook> might be, i would have asked for a sync if it would have been tested...
[07:51] <ogra_ibook> Q-FUNK, if a package has a -XubuntuX in the version it needs manual syncing, else it goes through the autosync
[07:51] <zakame> er I though Jan 19
[07:51] <ogra_ibook> yup
[07:52] <ogra_ibook> jan 19 afaik
[07:52] <zakame> *thought
[07:52] <ogra_ibook> should be on the release schadule in the wiki
[07:52] <Q-FUNK> ogra_ibook: indeed so, which is why I'm here today asking for someone to do that manual sync.
[07:52] <ogra_ibook> ah
[07:53] <ogra_ibook> Q-FUNK, then it will be on the manual syncs list anyway
[07:54] <lucas> going back home
[07:54] <lucas> 8pm
[07:54] <Q-FUNK> ogragiven how we're less than 2 weeks away from the freeze, I would rather know ASAP if there's still any delta, so that i can perhaps do something about it.
[07:54] <lucas> what a day
[07:55] <jpatrick> hey \sh
[07:55] <ajmitch> hey \sh
[07:55] <ogra_ibook> Q-FUNK, thats a question of manpower
[07:56] <segfault> woohoo, my first package is done.
[07:56] <\sh> moins
[07:56] <ogra_ibook> hey \sh
[07:56] <\sh> moins ogra
[07:56] <zakame> hi \sh :)
[07:57] <Q-FUNK> dholbach: that reminds me, pitti suggested I should talke to you about preapring a language pack for Estonian for Dapper.
[07:57] <Amaranth> segfault: awesome, what package?
[07:57] <dholbach> Q-FUNK: to me? i wonder why :)
[07:57] <segfault> roundcube
[07:57] <segfault> webmail from roundcube.net
[07:57] <ogra_ibook> dholbach, oh, you do langpacks now ?
[07:57] <dholbach> ogra_ibook: i surely don't
[07:57] <Amaranth> segfault: never heard of it ;)
[07:57] <ogra_ibook> *g*
[07:57] <Q-FUNK> hm
[07:57] <\sh> dholbach: fixing istanbul....sorry for the *censored* eye sight of me
[07:58] <dholbach> \sh: don't worry
[07:58] <ajmitch> \sh: there are others if you want them ;)
[07:58] <Amaranth> So when a MOTU makes a new package just for Ubuntu, does something poke Debian and let them know?
[07:58] <segfault> amaranth: it's new, ajax-powered. it's kinda cool
[07:58] <Q-FUNK> dholbach: I'm probably mixing issues then.  I remember him telling me to talk to you about something related to one of my packages, though.
[07:58] <Amaranth> Or should hte packager do that?
[07:58] <ogra_ibook> Amaranth, the packager
[07:59] <Amaranth> file a ITP bug?
[07:59] <ogra_ibook> Amaranth, revu2 might change that
[07:59] <ogra_ibook> Amaranth, nope, an RFP
[07:59] <segfault> there's some problem with php5-imap
[07:59] <dholbach> Q-FUNK: If you remember, I'm happy to help out, where I can. language-packs is unfortunately not my area of expertise.
[07:59] <zakame> gn8 all
[07:59] <\sh> Amaranth: make it a rfp...you don't want to be responsible for the package your lifetime :)
[07:59] <Amaranth> heh
[07:59] <ogra_ibook> Amaranth, unless you want to take it over in debian
[07:59] <Amaranth> segfault: ok, do what they said
[08:00] <ogra_ibook> dholbach, might be pitti thought your expertise lies in estonian if you read HP in four langs ;)
[08:01] <segfault> how do you guys take care of upstream packages?
[08:01] <dholbach> ogra_ibook: estonian is not on my list of languages to learn yet. :)
[08:01] <Amaranth> HP?
[08:01] <segfault> subscribe to their -announce list when there's one?
[08:01] <dholbach> segfault: what do you mean?
[08:01] <dholbach> segfault: gnome has RSS feeds - sourceforge.net has too
[08:02] <Amaranth> segfault: You mean tell the developers of the software you're packaging that there is a package in Ubuntu?
[08:02] <dholbach> segfault: but else: announce mailing lists - irc channels of upstream developers, ...
[08:02] <segfault> i mean, you take care of tons of packages, there's no way you can check their sites, one by one
[08:02] <ogra_ibook> Amaranth, yes, he reads hewlett packards business reports in four languages for fun :)
[08:02] <segfault> RSS is nice, though
[08:02] <Amaranth> oh
[08:02] <dholbach> Amaranth: I don't. Don't listen to ogra.
[08:02] <Amaranth> isn't that what debian.watch is for?
[08:02] <ogra_ibook> *giggle*
[08:03] <segfault> well, dunno, heh.
[08:03] <\sh> ajmitch: well..I leave it up to you now with the merges...right now I'm somehow not in the mood of doing hardcore merging stuff..i'm learning more python and be prepared for python .net
[08:03] <ogra_ibook> dholbach, meeeeeh meeeeeh
[08:03] <ogra_ibook> dholbach, give it back, i need to stay up until 2am for the meeting
[08:04] <Amaranth> \sh: IronPython?
[08:04] <\sh> Amaranth: yepp
[08:04] <dholbach> Amaranth: Harry Potter :)
[08:04] <Amaranth> heh, those books are awesome
[08:04] <Amaranth> each one is longer than the last
[08:04] <\sh> I wonder when HP is fighting for this abbreviation in front of a court against J.K. Rowling
[08:04] <Amaranth> and is meant for an older audience
[08:05] <\sh> Amaranth: no...harry potter is growing up...so the audience as well
[08:05] <Amaranth> yeah, that's what i mean
[08:05] <dholbach> \sh: I still refuse to grow up.
[08:05] <Amaranth> i'm only a couple of years off his age, so i've been following along ;)
[08:06] <ajmitch> \sh: python .net?
[08:06] <\sh> dholbach: you shouldn't have smoke in your early years ,)
[08:06] <ajmitch> \sh: like ironpython?
[08:06] <Amaranth> most recent book sucked though
[08:06] <\sh> ajmitch: yep
[08:06] <ajmitch> are you packaging ironpython?
[08:06] <dholbach> Amaranth: the 6th sucked?
[08:06] <\sh> ajmitch: no :)
[08:06] <Amaranth> Python.NET was some weird bridge, wasn't it?
[08:06] <ajmitch> \sh: good, because I've started doing so ;)
[08:06] <Amaranth> dholbach: Yeah.
[08:06] <\sh> Amaranth: the last one was the best...you can see now snapes real personality..he is a spy..*oops*
[08:07] <dholbach> \sh: a spy... leaves it all open ;)
[08:07] <Amaranth> hey, while we're giving away details...dumbledore dies
[08:07] <Amaranth> which sucks
[08:07] <ajmitch> shhh
[08:07] <Amaranth> i think the 6th book was just setup so she can do more than 7 books
[08:07] <ajmitch> probably
[08:07] <dholbach> Amaranth: i thought it made the whole books an epos instead of a kids' boarding school book. :)
[08:08] <dholbach> Amaranth: You're harsh with her. :)
[08:08] <\sh> dholbach: well...the logic behind dumbledores death is obvious...because think about the first part what dumbledore said, when harry defeated squirrel
[08:08] <Amaranth> yeah, but if he doesn't go back to school in book 7 she can drag it on longer ;)
[08:08] <\sh> Amaranth: the 7th is the last..harry will die
[08:08] <dholbach> Amaranth: and we'll get an 8th book and a 9th.
[08:08] <Amaranth> \sh:quirrel
[08:08] <\sh> Amaranth: right....squirrel was the web application ,
[08:09] <\sh> ;)
[08:09] <Amaranth> heh
[08:09] <Amaranth> that was book 1, no?
[08:09] <\sh> Amaranth: yepp philosophers stone
[08:09] <Amaranth> sorcerer's stone ;)
[08:10] <jpatrick> whatever
[08:10] <Amaranth> anyway, there is no way she was planning the whole thing from book 1 on
[08:11] <\sh> Amaranth: the original is philosophers stone, right? let me check the title of the first video ,)
[08:11] <Amaranth> if anything from book 1 suddenly seems like foreshadowing it's because she did it on accident or warped the story around it
[08:11] <Amaranth> \sh: not in the US
[08:11] <\sh> Amaranth: well...yes..the US .. every time a bit extra ,)
[08:11] <\sh> Amaranth: but it's surprising to read the translations of the name "Lord Voldemort" ,)
[08:11] <Amaranth> ?
[08:12] <segfault> package-contains-upstream-install-documentation
[08:12] <segfault> is this warning too bad?
[08:12] <\sh> Amaranth: Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone (2001) [ENG] 
[08:12] <tseng> if you get a warning, its probably something wrong
[08:12] <Amaranth> you don't need the upstream install documentation, you're installing it
[08:12] <tseng> it doesnt break anything, but its not less wrong
[08:12] <Amaranth> the INSTALL file
[08:13] <Amaranth> \sh: that's when the movie came out?
[08:13] <\sh> Amaranth: yepp
[08:13] <segfault> so i must do a post-install script to auto configure it
[08:25] <raphink> hi slomo
[08:25] <slomo> hi raphink :)
[08:26] <raphink> how are you slomo?
[08:27] <slomo> hm, tired and busy now ;) i'm currently learning maths
[08:28] <raphink> hehe ok
[08:28] <raphink> studies
[08:29] <jpatrick> i'm still at friggin' school
[08:29] <lucas> raphink: where in france are you ?
[08:30] <raphink> lucas: Poitiers
[08:30] <raphink> currently
[08:30] <lucas> ok
[08:30] <raphink> but there's nohting keeping me there if I need to move
[08:30] <lucas> what are you qualifications ?
[08:31] <raphink> http://raphink.multiply.com/profile/resume/resume.pdf
[08:31] <raphink> this was a year ago
[08:31] <raphink> since then I have studied pedagogy and how to create a company for 4 months
[08:31] <raphink> and gained experience in linux stuff, too ;)
[08:32] <raphink> lucas: I don't have my engineer diploma since I stopped my school in the middle of the second year
[08:33] <raphink> lucas: j'ai un parcours zarbi, hein? ;)
[08:33] <lucas> effectivement :)
[08:34] <raphink> what do you think I could do with that?
[08:34] <raphink> lately i'm thinking of trying to work as a Linux technologies teacher
[08:34] <raphink> teaching people in companies how to use Linux
[08:34] <raphink> since more and more companies use it
[08:34] <lucas> that's a good idea
[08:34] <raphink> and working on a new way to teach computer science, using my knowledge in pedagogy
[08:35] <raphink> ty lucas
[08:35] <raphink> unfortunately, ideas don't pay ;)
[08:35] <tseng> raphink: when you figure it out let me know
[08:35] <segfault> why lintian complains about changelog-file-not-compressed when dh_compress says it'll only compress files bigger than 4K? The upstream changelog has 2.2K. Lintian is on drugs.
[08:35] <raphink> as long as it's only an idea, it doesn't help me to eat ;)
[08:35] <tseng> atm i seem to need a unix guy to push a power button on a linux box
[08:35] <raphink> tseng: when I figure out what?
[08:35] <tseng> raphink: cluing in people to linux
[08:36] <raphink> tseng: you mean about a course to teach linux ?
[08:36] <tseng> eh
[08:36] <raphink> ;)
[08:36] <raphink> tseng: I have my ideas on this ;)
[08:36] <raphink> began to work on the hard drive and filesystem so far
[08:36] <raphink> maybe I should begin with simpler stuff
[08:36] <segfault> hehe
[08:36] <raphink> but I found this part interesting
[08:37] <raphink> tseng: the pedagogy i'm learning is quite innovative, and based on cognitive psychology
[08:37] <raphink> tseng: and my point is that most computer science courses fail because computer science it taught without ever removing the perception from learners
[08:38] <tseng> what perception
[08:38] <raphink> you learn to use a computer facing a computer and you don't try to check that you know how do it when the comp is off
[08:38] <tseng> and yes i dropped out of computer science after a few weeks
[08:38] <tseng> what do i win
[08:38] <raphink> tseng: PM this is offtopic
[08:38] <tseng> hah
[08:40] <Amaranth> This channel has no topic to get off of. :)
[08:48] <jpatrick> Amaranth: haha
[08:51] <raphink> hehe
[08:52] <raphink> indeed
[09:02] <lucas> who can create accounts on a *.tauware.de box ?
[09:03] <jpatrick> siretart I think...
[09:21] <chninkel> hi
[09:23] <Kyral> hmm
[09:24] <psusi> is siretart around?  I sent in my email last night with my new gpg key to get upload access to revu... not heard back yet
[09:24] <Kyral> Guy with a Gentoo Dev cloak just walked into #ubuntu
[09:24] <ogra> psusi, i think he's on holiday
[09:24] <psusi> ogra: ahh... can anyone else hook up the key?
[09:25] <ogra> i dont think so
[09:25] <psusi> darn
[09:25] <jpatrick> Kyral: I can't see him/her
[09:25] <ogra> probably sistpoty
[09:25] <Kyral> jpatrick: its spb-
[09:25] <Kyral> or something like that
[09:26] <ogra> Kyral, whats wrong with gentoo devs ?
[09:26] <Kyral> ogra: nothing
[09:26] <Kyral> just...unusual
[09:26] <ogra> we steam a lot of their patches ;)
[09:26] <ogra> *steal
[09:26] <tseng> their mono maintainer is my main man
[09:26] <Kyral> and I tend to pick up on things that don't fit in with what I'm used to
[09:26] <jpatrick> Kyral: negative, can't find him :/
[09:27] <ogra> so they might steam some community feeling in #ubuntu in turn ;)
[09:27] <tseng> and yea i happily steal patches from him
[09:27] <ogra> *steal
[09:27] <ogra> grmbl
[09:27] <tseng> (and share back)
[09:27] <Kyral> spb-
[09:27] <psusi> gentoo does come up with a lot of nifty stuff
[09:27] <Kyral> yah
[09:27] <psusi> I just don't like waiting 3 days for things to compile ;)
[09:27] <Kyral> Ain't Portage all in Python?
[09:27] <tseng> Kyral: yes.
[09:27] <ogra> mostly to hackish to be used in public :)
[09:28] <ogra> but often great with a little tweakage :)
[09:28] <Kyral> jpatrick: he just quit out
[09:28] <tseng> well
[09:28] <tseng> ebuilds are pseudo-bash
[09:29] <chninkel> could someone help me with bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/mysql-query-browser/+bug/6390 ?
[09:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 6390: "query-browser (Ubuntu) - mysql-query-browser: merge new debian version" Fix req. for: mysql-query-browser (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: MOTU Reviewers Team, Status: PendingUpload http://launchpad.net/bugs/6390
[09:30] <jpatrick> Kyral: oh damn I was looking at #ubuntu-devel
[09:30] <Kyral> hehe
[09:30] <chninkel> the mysql-query-browser binary crashes on ubuntu but works perfectly on debian sid
[10:03] <lucas> ok, let's work on some merges before UVF.
[10:52] <seth_k|lappy> Any motu that likes KDE that would like to review polyester? http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1375 [New, 1 advocate] 
[10:52] <raphink> I would if I could seth_k|lappy ;)
[10:52] <seth_k|lappy> you and me both, raphink :P
[10:53] <seth_k|lappy> you reviewed it last night, but it's advocates I need
[10:53] <raphink> hehe :)
[10:53] <raphink> yes I know
[10:53] <seth_k|lappy> Let me know when you apply for MOTU, because I'll probably apply the same meeting. I know Riddell said he wanted both of us working on KDE goodies
[10:54] <raphink> seth_k|lappy: I'll apply for membership first ;)
[10:54] <seth_k|lappy> ohh, you're not a member yet?
[10:54] <raphink> step by step ;)
[10:54] <seth_k|lappy> I've got that one out of the way, at least
[10:54] <raphink> nope
[10:55] <raphink> i'm applying for the second time next tuesday
[10:55] <raphink> last time they said my contribution was nice but not long enough
[10:55] <raphink> and asked me to come back in 4 weeks
[10:55] <raphink> so I will ;)
[10:56] <seth_k|lappy> yep :)
[10:57] <raphink> will you wait for me ?
[10:57] <raphink> ;)
[10:58] <raphink> I'll need to work on merges and bugs anyway
[10:58] <raphink> the work I do is not enough to apply for MOTU imo
[10:58] <seth_k|lappy> I don't plan to apply in the near near future, so probably :P
[10:59] <seth_k|lappy> I need to do more work as well.
[10:59] <seth_k|lappy> but my list of packages in Ubuntu is steadily growing :) I'm maintaining 3 (soon 4) and have quite a few uploads
[10:59] <segfault> do i need to change anything to get postinst exec'ed after install a package?
[11:00] <raphink> segfault: no
[11:00] <raphink> apart from programming postinst properly
[11:03] <segfault> k
[11:54] <segfault> i've just uploaded roundcube. can anyone please review it when it appears?
[11:55] <raphink> segfault: url?
[11:55] <raphink> please
[11:56] <segfault> looks like it take some minutes to show up
[11:56] <raphink> yes segfault
[11:56] <raphink> up to 10 minutes sometimes
[11:57] <lfittl> raphink: the cron script should run every 5 minutes as far as I know
[11:57] <segfault> raphink: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1383
[11:57] <segfault> woo!
[11:57] <raphink> lfittl: ah ok
[11:58] <raphink> Internal Server Error
[11:58] <raphink> cool
[11:58] <raphink> i love that
[11:58] <segfault> heh
[11:59] <raphink> I'll look at it soon
[11:59] <segfault> thanks
[12:00] <minghua> good afternoon
[12:00] <raphink> hi minghua
[12:01] <lfittl> segfault: you did a native upload, rename the upstream tar.gz to roundcube_0.1.orig.tar.gz and create the sourcepackage again
[12:01] <raphink> segfault: you miss the orig.tar.gz file
[12:01] <raphink> segfault: rebuild your package with the -sa option
[12:01] <segfault> oops
[12:01] <raphink> debuild -S -sa
[12:02] <raphink> or dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -S -sa
[12:02] <raphink> and upload it again
[12:02] <segfault>  dpkg-buildpackage -S -sa -rfakeroot
[12:02] <segfault> i did this
[12:02] <raphink> you missed the -sa surely
[12:02] <raphink> cause you miss the orig.tar.gz