[12:04] <dholbach> elmo: can you please sync texinfo from sid? ok to override, we can talk about gutenprint tomorrow, i'm off to bed
[12:11] <poningru> mako: left a post on your blog, not sure it got posted
[12:12] <poningru> s/post/comment
[12:41] <moret> hi all
[12:41] <moret> please, help, I need reconfigure locales, but when I execute sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales happens nothing, I use Dapper
[12:44] <Burgwork> moret, please use #ubuntu as this is not a support channel, even for dapper
[01:12] <Riddell> what's the default DPI used by GDM?
[01:14] <desrt> BenC; ping?
[01:15] <desrt> Riddell; whatever your X server is configured to
[01:15] <BenC> pong
[01:15] <BenC> desrt: looking into the ieee1394 thing
[01:15] <Riddell> hmm, I thought it was set to a fixed 100 dpi
[01:15] <desrt> BenC; i was about to ask if you could send me the patch you had before
[01:15] <desrt> BenC; so i can give it a test
[01:16] <BenC> desrt: don't have a patch, but there's a git tree www.kernel.org/git/
[01:16] <BenC> look for ieee1394
[01:16] <desrt> awesome
[01:16] <desrt> do i just do like 'git checkout'? :)
[01:17] <desrt> k.  i'll let you know how it goes
[01:17] <BenC> ok
[01:18] <BenC> if you have an ubuntu git tree, you can just do a pull from the ieee1394 tree to get the changes
[01:18] <desrt> i know 3 things about git:
[01:18] <desrt> 1) it's a revision control system
[01:18] <desrt> 2) the kernel guys use it a lot
[01:18] <desrt> 3) it has a cute name
[01:18] <desrt> this is all i know :)
[01:19] <BenC> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelGitGuide 
[01:19] <desrt> ahah!
[01:19] <BenC> use that to get the ubuntu git treee
[01:19] <desrt> k thx.
[01:20] <BenC> cd ubuntu-2.6
[01:20] <BenC> git-pull rsync://rsync.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/scjody/ieee1394.git master
[01:21] <BenC> fakeroot debian/rules binary-debs flavours=686
[01:21] <BenC> or whatever flavour you use
[01:21] <BenC> .deb will end up in debian/build/
[01:23] <desrt> could i just use the git-patched sources of ieee1394 against linux-headers to cook myself a fresh set of firewire modules?
[01:25] <LaserJock> does anybody know how http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/ are generated?
[01:33] <BenC> desrt: possibly
[01:34] <desrt> BenC; do you ever get a problem where after you do the download you have nothing except ubuntu-2.6/.git/
[01:34] <desrt> ie: nothing in the ubuntu-2.6 dir except for .git
[01:34] <BenC> desrt: cd ubuntu-2.6; git-checkout
[01:35] <desrt> excellent.
[01:35] <desrt> odd system
[01:35] <jdub> BenC: you heard of machines not being able to install without DMA enabled?
[01:37] <zul> BenC: uh...did you do a pull from my tree?
[01:43] <desrt> BenC; your tree contains conflicts with his :)
[01:52] <infinity> Has anyone been looking for me for the last two hours?  My new ISP decided to muck with my line with no warning.
[01:52] <mjg59> infinity: Nope
[02:02] <Lathiat> infinity: dont you love that :)
[02:02] <infinity> For some value of "love" that I haven't previously discovered...
[02:03] <Lathiat> i had an upstreaam provider unplug the wrong cable on me yesterday
[02:03] <Lathiat> fortuantely fibre was only out for 15 minutes
[02:03] <Lathiat> apparently labelled two ports the same, idiots
[02:08] <desrt> oi vey
[02:18] <jdub> mdz: xchat-gnome!
[02:27] <desrt> BenC; some bad news.  i did what i believe to be a correct merge of the latest ieee1394 code with ubuntu's git tree and loaded up the firewire modules.  no love.
[02:28] <desrt> BenC; i guess(?) the problem is in some other part of the tree that the ieee1394 maintainer has patched.  conflicts in the scsi layer are a lot more difficult to resolve, though :/
[02:39] <mdz> jdub: it's looking good
[02:39] <mdz> jdub: once I fixed the keyboard shortcuts, that is
[02:40] <mdz> infinity: I'm getting spurious "Cannot update" messages from update-initramfs; have you seen this?
[02:40] <mdz> there's no file in /var/lib/initramfs-tools for my 2.6.15-11-k7
[02:40] <infinity> No, it's completely silent for me.  A bug report would be nice.  A trace of what it's trying to do would be nicer.
[02:41] <infinity> Oh.  That's special.  Did /var/lib/initramfs-tools get cleaned on your machine at some point?
[02:41] <infinity> kernel-packages (and hence the linux kernels) have been "correctly" creating initramfs (and populating that directory) for ages...
[02:42] <BenC> desrt: there's scsi merges in the ieee1394 git?
[02:42] <desrt> BenC; yup
[02:42] <BenC> that's not the code I got then
[02:42] <infinity> mdz: I've not (yet) had anyone else report this to me, so I'd suspect it was a local issue that led to you not having the right file there...
[02:42] <desrt> BenC; there are serial-ata changes even.  very odd.
[02:43] <BenC> they must be tracking the scsi git
[02:43] <mdz> infinity: I've done nothing with it but normal upgrades through linux-meta, and this has happened twice since 2.6.15
[02:43] <desrt> BenC; is there a way i can checkout the source as it was at -8 release and then the source at -9 and diff them?
[02:43] <BenC> try the for-linus branch
[02:43] <BenC> desrt: hold a sec
[02:43] <infinity> mdz: Great.  Then either you really are alone, or no one else is bothering to report bugs about this and I've just been lucky enough to not have it happen here.
[02:44] <desrt> k.  i'm just reviewing a patch right now.  i'll be a minute anyway :)
[02:44] <mdz> infinity: perhaps it's related to the fact that packages other than the kernel are invoking it now
[02:44] <infinity> mdz: I assume purging the kernel and reinstalling it magically makes it come back.
[02:44] <mdz> not sure; haven't tried that
[02:44] <mdz> I will try a reconfigure first
[02:44] <infinity> mdz: Packages other than the kernel invoking it is the whole reason why that file is there (and why initramfs-tools needs to "own" the image)
[02:45] <BenC> desrt: try git-diff-tree -p 2.6.15-8.10 2.6.15-9.11 > foo.diff
[02:45] <BenC> that will diff the entire tree, but you should be able to pull the ieee1394 stuff out of that
[02:45] <mdz> infinity: hmm? why should it care who is invoking it?  I thought the file was there to support local modifications to initramfs
[02:45] <infinity> BenC: Have you seen or heard of this yet?  (kernels getting installed with an initramfs that doesn't appear to be "owned" by initramfs-tools correctly)?
[02:45] <mdz> infinity: (which I don't find to be a valid use case, by the way)
[02:45] <mdz> anyone hand-hacking their initramfs can also point grub to a different pathname
[02:46] <infinity> mdz: Well, the file is there to make sure the one we're updating is our own, but yes, same thing.
[02:46] <desrt> BenC; running
[02:46] <mdz> I think it would be perfectly reasonable to disable this complexity entirely and just do it
[02:46] <infinity> mdz: We could remove that sanity check entirely and your problem would go away, but I'm not sure how many people would cry about such a change.
[02:46] <desrt> my what a big diff you have
[02:47] <mdz> infinity: I would be amazed if anyone cried
[02:47] <mdz> it's not documented as far as I know
[02:47] <infinity> mdz: I imagine most of the crying would be in Debian, not Ubuntu.  So I'd be happy to make the change in our tree.
[02:47] <infinity> Our users aren't that low-level, most of the time.
[02:48] <mdz> infinity: aha, found the problem
[02:48] <mdz> an old kernel-img.conf with ramdisk = /usr/sbin/mkinitramfs
[02:48] <mdz> from before we switched over the official kernels
[02:49] <mdz> so it gets generated correctly the first time and never thereafter
[02:49] <infinity> Ahh.
[02:49] <infinity> That would be a problem only you, jbailey, and ogra would have.
[02:49] <infinity> I can't think of too many people who played with that setting manually before we switched kernel-package.
[02:50] <mdz> still, I don't think it's necessary to treat initramfses as conffiles
[02:50] <infinity> In that case, I'm inclined to say the feature is working as expected.  Custom ramdisk= stuff shouldn't be overwritten willy-nilly.
[02:51] <infinity> (Though, I suppose custom stuff really should use a different filename, if people don't want it touched)
[02:51] <mdz> anyone who tested the early thin client stuff would also have this problem within the client chroot
[02:51] <infinity> Alright, I'll disable the check for now, and let update-initramfs overwrite mkinitramfs stuff.
[02:52] <mdz> thanks; I'm not worried about the kernel-img.conf thing really, but I think that overall it's more reasonable to have update-initramfs always generate a new image
[02:52] <infinity> In the world of "user-friendly" versus "what I think is technically correct", the former probably wins here.
[02:53] <infinity> I'll put a blinking comment in there, though, so Max doesn't blindly sync the change to Debian.  I can imagine most Debianers would be on my side on this one (users be damned, the feature is right!)
[02:54] <mdz> mkinitrd never behaved this way
[02:54] <infinity> We never regenerated initrds with mkinitrd either.
[02:54] <infinity> Only by hand.
[02:54] <mdz> eh?  they were regenerated during kernel upgrades
[02:54] <infinity> I think it's the automation here that scares people.
[02:55] <infinity> Oh, I suppose they were, at that.
[02:55] <infinity> Kay.  Fixing.
[02:55] <infinity> Unfortunately, we use that state dir to get the version list too, but I can hack around that.
[02:55] <infinity> Or only allow arbitrary overwrites for the running kernel.
[02:58] <infinity> Or, I can compromise.  Instead of refusing to act, I'll just print a warning and plow through.
[02:59] <infinity> I'll just treat it as an implicit -t(akeover)
[03:12] <mdz> sounds good
[03:13] <desrt> BenC; success is mine
[03:13] <desrt> BenC; i have a patch that applies to the current git tree and fixes the bug
[03:13] <desrt> BenC; probably does a lot of other stuff too though (32kline patch) so i'm gonna try and isolate a bit more
[03:36] <BenC> desrt: excellent
[03:37] <desrt> BenC; down to 5klines now.  i messed up and had a lot of non-firewire stuff in there :p
[03:37] <mako> poningru: hm.. what happened with your post?
[03:37] <mako> poningru: several people have commented today so i don't think there's anything systemic wrong.. but i'd like to know if my blog is keeping people from posting
[03:37] <BenC> desrt: you should use git-bisect, save you some time
[03:38] <BenC> desrt: you could use 2.6.15-8.10 and 2.6.15-9.11 as start/end points and go from there
[03:38] <desrt> BenC; fabbione tried to sell me on that the other day :)
[03:38] <desrt> k.  i can unscrew my copy of the tree by rm -rf * and git-checkout -f, right?
[03:39] <desrt> ie: take it back to what the .git files say
[03:40] <BenC> or just git-checkout -f
[03:40] <BenC> git-status to make sure nothing lingers
[03:40] <desrt> i have to admit this whole concept confuses me.  how can i bisect you nuking an entire patchset in the ubuntu git?
[03:41] <BenC> desrt: hmm...maybe best if you found where I merged the ieee1394 tree, and bisect around that so you can catch the commit that fixed it
[03:42] <desrt> BenC; when you resynched to mainline you added support for a couple of new drivers, it seems
[03:44] <BenC> desrt: obsolete drivers that can be ignored
[03:45] <BenC> cmp and amdtp are old and broken
[03:45] <desrt> BenC; then let's just sync back up to the development branch?
[03:45] <desrt> BenC; my only concern was that this patch killed those drivers... but if that's a good thing anyway....
[03:46] <BenC> there was a reason I reverted back to stock code
[03:46] <BenC> I can't remember why though
[03:46] <desrt> it was me :)
[03:46] <desrt> and it turned out to be a bogus reason :)
[03:47] <desrt> my cdrom drive wasn't working in its enclosure... the revert didn't help issues
[03:47] <desrt> but a new cdrom drive did
[03:47] <BenC> ah, then I'll pull it back
[03:48] <desrt> ok.  it's there
[03:49] <desrt> thanks for the info about git :)
[03:49] <BenC> no problem
[03:57] <poningru> mako: sorry to bother you dude, it was my problem, I didnt allow the cookie to be placed on my browser
[03:58] <poningru> mako: I posted it again and this time it worked
[03:58] <poningru> thanks for your concern, its good to know you care
[03:58] <daniels> poningru: he's only pretending to care
[03:58] <daniels> really he has a cold black heart
[03:59] <floam> no need to get into race
[03:59] <poningru> rofl
[04:38] <daniels> just as a heads up, nvidia and fglrx will possibly be broken indefinitely from later today onwards; put xserver-xorg-core 1:1.0.1-0ubuntu1 on hold if this doesn't sound like a winning idea.  hth k thx bye.
[04:39] <psusi> lol
[04:39] <LaserJock> daniels: what does indefinitely mean? Like for a few weeks or forever or you really don't know?
[04:39] <daniels> LaserJock: until they rebuild against a newer xorg-server, which may be never
[04:40] <LaserJock> hmmm, bummer
[04:41] <psusi> hernel hacking question... this pktcdvd driver requires CAP_SYS_ADMIN to set up and tear down devices... this apparently is because it takes the device nr as a parameter so no other security checks are performed
[04:41] <psusi> would it be a good idea to modify that to instead take an fd in the ioctl, and accept it from non root users if they have write access?
[04:41] <infinity> daniels: Joy!
[04:42] <daniels> hooray for unavoidable ABI breakage
[04:42] <infinity> "unavoidable"?
[04:43] <infinity> Would it not be best (for dapper, at any rate) to keep our X packages vaguely in line with what the upstream 6.9/7.0 release called release versions, since that's what 3rd party folk will most likely build against?
[04:43] <psusi> surely you can get that square peg into that round hole if you apply enough elbow grease? ;)
[04:45] <daniels> infinity: hopefully we can convince nvidia/ati to build against the xorg-server 1.1.0 that I'm sure will be released sometime before dapper
[04:46] <daniels> ironically, half the reason for the breakage is for Xglx, which is generally used on proprietary drivers
[04:47] <infinity> That is rather wicked irony, yes.
[04:47] <daniels> well, Xgl in general, but no-one uses Xegl, aside from airlied
[04:51] <psusi> suid executables are a no-no aren't they?
[04:52] <daniels> psusi: in general, yes
[04:52] <infinity> psusi: In general, yes.  If they absolutely can't be avoided, then...
[04:53] <psusi> well, I've got two choices here... make pktsetup suid so hald can call it... or patch the kernel so it doesn't require CAP_SYS_ADMIN for the ioctl
[04:54] <infinity> What is pktsetup?
[04:54] <psusi> making pktsetup suid and not world executable, and owned by the cdrom group would be easiest
[04:54] <infinity> And why does non-root need to run it?
[04:54] <psusi> infinity, a program in the udftools package that controls the kernel pktcdvd driver to associate virtual read/write devices with cdrom devices
[04:54] <mjg59> psusi: Or we can sort out the hal root callout stuff
[04:54] <psusi> non root needs to run it because hal runs as non root
[04:55] <psusi> mjg59, well, it's sorted.... hal doesn't run as root ;)
[04:55] <mjg59> psusi: No, but hal needs to execute stuff as root
[04:55] <mjg59> That's a requirement before dapper
[04:55] <psusi> hrm.... another possibility is to add rules for the hal account to be able to sudo specific commands
[04:56] <mjg59> Ngh.
[04:56] <mjg59> While that work work, it's also less than ideal
[04:56] <psusi> how come?
[04:56] <mjg59> sudoers is a conffile
[04:56] <psusi> so?
[04:56] <mjg59> We can't rewrite it
[04:56] <psusi> why not?
[04:56] <mjg59> Because it's a conffile
[04:56] <mjg59> Policy forbids it
[04:57] <psusi> ok... patch sudo so it uses rules from a non conf file we can write to ;)
[04:57] <infinity> That doesn't make it any less sick.
[04:57] <psusi> why is it so sick?
[04:58] <psusi> you need a suid root program to gate the privs hal needs... that's what sudo does
[04:58] <mjg59> Or we could do what upstream want to do, which is to add a separate daemon running as root that listens for requests from hal over dbus
[04:58] <psusi> why is that any better?
[04:59] <mjg59> Because it's the way upstream want to do it
[04:59] <psusi> it certainly is more complicated... so what advantages does it have?
[04:59] <psusi> well if upstream smokes crack, do you? ;)
[04:59] <mjg59> I don't find it any less offensive than any other solution, and it avoids the wheel being reinvented
[05:00] <mjg59> Uh, more offensive
[05:00] <psusi> writing a new daemon from scratch using dbus and who knows what is complex... complex = high probability of bugs... bugs = possible root exploit
[05:00] <mjg59> It's not complex
[05:00] <psusi> isn't dbus somewhat complex?
[05:00] <mjg59> There's already dbus-using stuff running as root
[05:00] <mjg59> That's somewhat unavoidable
[05:01] <psusi> well, if you can't avoid it you can't avoid it... but if you can, it's a good idea to keep it simple
[05:01] <mjg59> So what we actually end up with is a 20 line app plus some generic dbus code
[05:01] <psusi> and sudo is prety darn simple
[05:02] <psusi> it also can probably be implemented before upstream gets around to writing this new daemon ;)
[05:02] <psusi> i.e. in time for dapper
[05:04] <mjg59> No, the idea is that either me or pitti write it for upstream
[05:04] <mjg59> That way it gets done :)
[05:04] <mjg59> If all else fails, yeah, we go with some other hacky solution
[05:04] <psusi> hehe.... 
[05:05] <psusi> if you really don't want to use sudo, you could just write another gatekeeper program that would be suid and execute only to hal
[05:07] <infinity> That's what the daemon would be (though not suid)
[05:07] <infinity> Is it just the "pass messages over big, scary, dbus" part you have a problem with?
[05:08] <infinity> Cause that's unavoidable at this stage.  Every second system management tool written for GNOME (hi, NetworkManager!) is using that daemon<->dbus<->frontend approach.
[05:08] <psusi> infinity, it's more complex to send messages via dbus ( can't that be inter machine? ) to have things run as root, rather than executing a suid wrapper directly
[05:09] <daniels> (which is actually a good approach)
[05:09] <psusi> and all else being equal, less complexity is good
[05:09] <daniels> yes, but less suid is good also
[05:09] <lifeless> psusi: but its not all equal
[05:09] <infinity> Overall complexity goes down as more people use the same approach and dbus gets more and more audited.
[05:09] <lifeless> psusi: perhaps get it to be all equal, then you can argue the dbus component
[05:09] <psusi> it's still more complex than just executing the thing you need directly
[05:10] <infinity> Whereas hacking sudo to do weird things would be Ubuntu-specific, with no real external auditing.
[05:10] <psusi> true... but a simple suid wrapper program would be easily audited as it would only require like 10 lines of code
[05:10] <psusi> with no complex deps
[05:11] <daniels> yes, but then when upstream goes and does the dbus thing anyway, you'll have to throw that way and deal with the dbus stuff regardless
[05:11] <daniels> so what's the point?
[05:11] <psusi> lol... I did a nohup nice 7z over an hour ago to recompress this full system backup for the fun of it... .tar.gz was 796M, .tar.7z is 546M.... wow!
[05:12] <psusi> daniels, well, you won't have to if upstream sees the light and just uses your simpler method
[05:12] <lifeless> psusi: so go talk to upstream
[05:13] <daniels> psusi: odds are stunningly low
[05:13] <psusi> they are really hell  bent on dbus eh?
[05:13] <daniels> this sort of privsep is one of the things dbus was designed for
[05:14] <infinity> (reinventing the privelege separation wheel every time you write something is not as "simple" as people make it out to be)
[05:14] <infinity> dbus getting you this sort of stuff for free, even if it is "complex" is a good thing.
[05:14] <psusi> true....
[05:15] <psusi> well.... I guess I'll leave it to pitti and mjg59... and in the mean time I'll just make pktsetup suid as a work around
[05:47] <psusi> what permissions are required to do hal-set-property?
[06:04] <freestone> Mithrandir: Are you there?
[06:13] <Mithrandir> freestone: now I am
[06:16] <fabbione> morning guys
[06:17] <ajmitch> morning fabbione 
[06:32] <freestone> Mithrandir: Hi - I was on as 'den' last friday when you got me the iso for the firewire fix.  I got your emails.  Thanks for making a new iso.  I'm wondering if you can make a small iso - like you or someone (infinity?) was saying was for just a base system.l  Maybe 10-50MB. Would that be possible?
[06:34] <freestone> Mithrandir: I probably have to log off for a short while - I'll try to come back in about 10 min, If I don't, it would be great if you would email me your answer. Thanks!
[06:35] <Mithrandir> freestone: yes, I can do that.  Note that it won't work as a live system, just as a test to see if the full CD will work.
[06:35] <psusi> hrm... that's interesting... looks like the hal has a race condition with its callouts... it isn't initialized enough yet to accept incoming connections from things like hal-set-property when it spawns the callout... have the callout sleep for a few seconds, and life is good
[06:35] <Mithrandir> freestone: I'll have it ready in a few hours, it's still very early morning for me here and I don't have the setup to make CDs at home.
[06:35] <freestone> Great
[06:36] <Mithrandir> freestone: I'll drop you a mail when it's ready.
[06:36] <Mithrandir> (unless you're around on IRC then)
[06:37] <freestone> You can get me the small one?
[06:37] <Mithrandir> yes
[06:37] <freestone> Thanks - I'm about to get off irc, & won't be on the net till 12+ hrs from now, more likely about 20+.
[06:37] <Mithrandir> ok, that's fine.
[06:38] <Mithrandir> I might or might not be around then.
[06:40] <freestone> Mithrandir: someone pointed me to read the ubuntu wike re: who are the kernel maintainer for ubuntu.  I read the logs of the past 2 developers meetings.  It was informative. So, I know that much.  Question: who maintains the  kernel for ubuntu?  & are they volunteers or paid?
[06:42] <Mithrandir> freestone: Ben Collins does most of the kernel work.  He's a paid employee.
[06:42] <freestone> Mithrandir: One reason I ask is cause there seems like there might be some bug with the "external disk drive" code, which causes a disk to get disconnected even during a file copy. & I'm wondering if someone on here would be the oerson responsible for that type of code.
[06:42] <Mithrandir> (I don't understand why "who is paid and who isn't" is interesting, but there's nothing secret there, so.. )
[06:43] <freestone> Oh  - It was ben who told me to try the latest kernel, when I submitted my bug.
[06:43] <mjg59> Whoops
[06:43] <Mithrandir> freestone: BenC has also worked on ieee1394 a fair bit upstream, so he should be in a good position to help you debug.
[06:44] <freestone> Mithrandir: just curioous. 
[06:44] <freestone> Mithrandir: I've been a debian user, where, i've assuned, all were volunteers.,
[06:45] <freestone> Mithrandir: other than using red hat many years ago, I haven't interacted with (knowingly) paid linux developers online before.
[06:45] <freestone> Is BenC the person who was the DPL?
[06:46] <Mithrandir> freestone: people are paid to work on Debian too, they're just not paid by Debian.
[06:46] <Mithrandir> yes, BenC has been DPL
[06:46] <freestone> The _same_ benc?
[06:46] <Mithrandir> yes
[06:52] <psusi> freeflying|away, what do you mean it causes it to get disconnected?  the only way the drive gets disconnected is if you unplug it
[06:53] <psusi> freestone, even
[06:54] <freestone> psusi: I do a cp file1 file2 on the exsternal hd, a 10GB file, and 80% of the time the copy fials cause the external disk becomes unseen by linux
[06:55] <freestone> psusi: Ask me if you want to read the bug report 0 It will take me a few minutes to look up the #
[06:55] <psusi> freestone, it thinks you unplugged it but didn't?
[06:55] <psusi> but YOU didn't even
[06:55] <freestone> No, I didn't unplug it - I just told it to copy a 10GB file, & it keeps failing
[06:56] <psusi> weird... and you didn't ask for it to be unmounted or anything either right?
[06:56] <psusi> that's a strange problem alright
[06:56] <zakame> hi devs
[06:56] <freestone> I only gave a cp command, it starts copying, and then 80% of the time it fails
[06:58] <freestone> psusi: external hard disk disconnects (firewire ieee1394 over SCSI) during file copy 'Read-only file system' 'Device offlined'
[06:59] <freestone> psusi: Bug 21565
[06:59] <psusi> freestone, the drive didn't happen to power itself down did it? ;)
[07:00] <freestone> This happens with 2 different hdds, from two different companies. I don't think it powerd down.  IIRC, the drive light stayed on on both drives.
[07:04] <jdub> mdz: i haven't even tried it yet; hrm, well, for a long time.
[07:05] <fabbione> hmm /29 is an 8 ip network, right?
[07:05] <mjg59> fabbione: Yeah
[07:05] <fabbione> mjg59: danke
[07:55] <dholbach> good morning
[08:05] <dholbach> infinity, lamont: could one of you please give back devhelp and blender?
[08:23] <infinity> dholbach: No.
[08:23] <infinity> :)
[08:25] <dholbach> infinity: Are the buildds on vacation or something? :)
[08:30] <Keybuk> infinity: I've finished playing with sysvinit for now ;)  so you can upload freely
[08:31] <infinity> dholbach: No, I'm just being a jerk.  (given back, BTW)
[08:32] <dholbach> infinity: thanks a lot. :-)
[08:34] <Keybuk> as far as I can tell, it's entire purpose is to print a message under usplash which nobody will ever see
[08:38] <Nafallo> will we have xserver-xorg-driver-synaptics on amd64 before dapper releases? ;-)
[08:39] <Keybuk> hmm, must get around to filing that bug about my synaptics ... pad drags don't work anymore
[08:41] <Nafallo> s/driver/input/
[08:42] <mdke> infinity, *here begins the bugging about the {k,ed}ubuntu-docs update in breezy*
[08:42] <infinity> mdke: Yay, thanks for the annoyance.
[08:43] <mdke> infinity, any time
[08:43] <mdke> Kamion, awake?
[08:43] <fabbione> soooo ok
[08:43] <fabbione> who decided to stick xchat-gnome in main and replace xchat?
[08:43] <infinity> fabbione: mdz?
[08:44] <dholbach> fabbione: yes and it doesn't 'replace' xchat :)
[08:44] <fabbione> dholbach: they conflicts
[08:44] <fabbione> and xchat is kicked out
[08:44] <fabbione> xchat-gnome UI sucks
[08:44] <fabbione> it's completely different and inconsistent with xchat
[08:45] <fabbione> without considering extremely incomplete
[08:45] <fabbione> this was a really unwise choise
[08:45] <infinity> Time to switch to irssi...
[08:45] <fabbione> time to go back to BitchX
[08:45] <jdub> oh, reminds me, i should try it
[08:48] <desrt> infinity; late bloomer
[08:48] <Nafallo> atleast make it xchat-gnome | xchat so I won't have to throw ubuntu-desktop away?
[08:48] <Keybuk> uh, why do these packages conflict?!
[08:48] <Keybuk> they're both installable at the same time
[08:49] <Keybuk> oh, even better
[08:49] <Keybuk> it's just xchat that conflicts xchat-gnome
[08:51] <Keybuk> looks like an old Debian hang-over from an old xchat-gnome
[08:51] <Keybuk> right, that can go bye-bye then :p
[08:54] <Keybuk> fabbione: right, as soon as infinity's babies do their work, you can have xchat again <g>
[08:54] <Mez> morning Keybuk - apologies for using you in an example :D
[08:57] <whiprush> howdy Keybuk 
[08:57] <Burgundavia> jdub, any thoughts on the FC5/mono thing?
[08:57] <dholbach> hellas whiprush
[08:57] <whiprush> hi daniel
[08:57] <whiprush> dholbach: I owe you 2 MOTU fridge things
[08:58] <dholbach> take your time :)
[08:58] <Keybuk> Mez: which example?
[08:59] <dholbach> Keybuk: "Everybody was dancing naked on the table, Keybuk for example." ;-)
[08:59] <fabbione> Keybuk: thanks :)
[09:00] <Mez> Keybuk: http://forums.lugradio.org/viewtopic.php?p=18333#18333
[09:00] <Mez> lol - dholbach that would probably work to
[09:09] <Keybuk> dholbach: no, that was you dreaming ;)
[09:09] <dholbach> haha :)
[09:10] <Keybuk> Mez: no worries, examplify me away
[09:19] <csj> Mithrandir, hello, thank your new liveCD-base, I have tried and  start X server corectly, but when user ubuntu  try to auto login in gdm, occur message "user not known to the underlying authentication module"
[09:19] <csj> does something about sudo or passwd stuff?
[09:19] <Mithrandir> csj: did you pull from bzr?
[09:20] <csj> Mithrandir, no, I dl the livecd-base 1hr before from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/livecd-base/current/
[09:21] <csj> and I see that casper is 1.25
[09:21] <csj> the same with that in bzr dir?
[09:21] <Mithrandir> csj: hmm, it ought to work, then, yes.
[09:30] <csj> Mithrandir, could I ask a stupid question, if I type "ubuntu" in gdm user name, then what is the password? just push enter?
[09:31] <Mithrandir> csj: there's no password, it's disabled.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> csj: does it at any point say "shadow passwords enabled"?
[09:38] <csj> Mithrandir, I am not sure, I am going to add some more package (locales, laptop-detect) and try to see more messages then
[09:38] <Mithrandir> csj: make sure user-setup is in the live image
[09:39] <csj> if I passwd in console firstly and then login gdm in normal way, will it work?
[09:39] <Mithrandir> csj: you won't get a shell in the console either, I'd imagine?
[09:40] <csj> no getty? Mithrandir, what do you mean "user-setup is in the live image" ?
[09:40] <Mithrandir> is the package "user-setup" installed?
[09:40] <Mithrandir> if you're basing your code off an old live fs, it won't be.
[09:44] <csj> Mithrandir, oh, I found I didn't install user-setup, I installed it now, and try again :)
[09:44] <Mithrandir> csj: it should work, then.
[10:00] <Keybuk> infinity: btw, after you changed to /dev/.initramfs, did you make sure the initramfs was updated? :)
[10:03] <fabbione> dholbach:  did you notice that almost all the last gnome-* uploads are FTBFS in the attempt of linking against libdbus?
[10:03] <sivang> MOrning all
[10:04] <dholbach> fabbione: some of them, yes - i'll talk to seb about it as soon as he appears, i personally suspect some broken gnomevfs/avahi/dbus pkg-config require.private thingie
[10:05] <fabbione> ok
[10:05] <dholbach> fabbione: thanks for telling me.
[10:05] <fabbione> np
[10:33] <fabbione> Riddell: ping?
[10:47] <zakame> hi all
[10:48] <\sh> but it's not a qt problem at all...the patch works
[10:48] <\sh> (without the quiet patch)
[10:48] <\sh> i think we have to recompile katapult..
[10:59] <Mez> \sh - it doesnt work for me aftera recompile either
[10:59] <\sh> yeah see it...
[11:00] <Mez> the katapult icon ?
[11:03] <seb128> carlos: around?
[11:07] <csj> Mithrandir, I have install 'user-setup' but still got the same message "user not known to the underlying authentication module", I am now add new user 'csj' and later then login as csj to try
[11:08] <Mithrandir> csj: uhm, you get a shell on tty1?
[11:08] <csj> Mithrandir, no, I remaster the filesystem.cloop now
[11:09] <csj> Mithrandir, should shadowconfig on or off by default?
[11:09] <Mithrandir> csj: please do, since this should work (and worked with casper from bzr about five minutes ago for me)
[11:09] <Mithrandir> csj: that's done through user-setup
[11:10] <csj> Mithrandir, oh, should I replace initrd.gz or vmlinuz like yesterday?
[11:10] <csj> cause I failed use 2.6.15-11 yesterday by replacing initrd.gz and vmlinuz
[11:10] <Mithrandir> csj: you need to replace initrd.gz each time you do something with casper
[11:11] <csj> ok. I try replace it again
[11:11] <zakame> hm can cdbs deal with multiple tarballs?
[11:11] <Mithrandir> csj: you need an initrd.gz which is less than 24 hours old, since that's when I fixed casper. :-))
[11:12] <csj> Mithrandir, where to get it? extracted it from daily-live-i386.iso?
[11:12] <csj> I mean which in the daily-live dir
[11:12] <Mithrandir> csj: that, or just install dapper in the live image you have and then pull out /boot/initrd*
[11:13] <csj> Mithrandir, should I copy out vmlinuz,too ?
[11:15] <Mithrandir> csj: that should be the same version as is on the live cd already, but it won't do any harm.
[11:15] <csj> Mithrandir, ok ,thanks, I go to try
[11:19] <sladen> Keybuk: amusing.  glibc.sh seems to (potentially) call 'dpkg' quite alot, which would likely not work in the situations it's trying to warn about...
[11:23] <Keybuk> sladen: hmm?
[11:24] <Keybuk> I made glibc.sh go away
[11:24] <lifeless> wave that wand
[11:49] <infinity> Keybuk: Erm, yes?  The initramfs is updated on every upgrade of initramfs-tools or usplash.  Unless you created it manually with mkinitrd (which I'm "fixing" in the next initramfs upload)
[11:51] <Keybuk> hmm, because it looks like that didn't happen to me <g>
[11:52] <sladen> Keybuk: good
[11:59] <\sh> KeyRelease event is not working correctly after applying this immodule patch...now lets see what the patch for the patch is doing
[12:00] <\sh> Nafallo: has someone replied to this strange problem with gajim and dbus?
[12:01] <Nafallo> \sh: yepp, there is a patch now :-)
[12:02] <Nafallo> http://trac.gajim.org/ticket/1347
[12:02] <\sh> cool...I'll make a new package :)
[12:03] <Nafallo> yay! :-)
[12:03] <Nafallo> oh, did you ever publish your bzr-archives btw? :-)
[12:05] <\sh> I'm doing it right after I fixed this libnotify thingy..
[12:05] <\sh> url will be revu.tauware.de/~shermann/packages/gajim
[12:05] <\sh> there will be several branches 
[12:06] <Nafallo> kewl :-)
[12:08] <carlos> seb128, hi
[12:09] <nikol> hi
[12:09] <seb128> hey carlos
[12:09] <seb128> Hi nikol
[12:09] <nikol> i install apps etc and i can't find the executable
[12:09] <nikol> where i can find to run the app?
[12:09] <seb128> carlos: is .pot upload broken on rosetta atm? xchat-gnome upstream asked because it doesn't work fomr him for a week (OOPS page)
[12:10] <seb128> nikol: please use #ubuntu for user questions etc
[12:10] <carlos> seb128, yes, it's broken but also fixed I hope the fix will be applied today to production
[12:11] <seb128> carlos: thanks
[12:14] <carlos> seb128, btw, the suggestions are not showing fuzzy messages anymore
[12:14] <carlos> well, when the patch is applied on production.
[12:14] <carlos> I hope it will happen today.
[12:15] <seb128> cool
[12:15] <\sh> yahoo...the patch works...qt is fixed :)
[12:18] <crimsun> \sh: does it need to be applied to qt4-x11, too?
[12:18] <fabbione> seb128, dholbach: ping?
[12:18] <\sh> crimsun: I have to check
[12:18] <seb128> fabbione: pong
[12:18] <\sh> crimsun: actually can you test something like katapult with qt4?
[12:19] <\sh> or wait...
[12:19] <fabbione> seb128, dholbach: would it be possible to patch gaim so that it doesn't start more than once? It's really annoying if you start it twice by mistake that it restarts all the connections
[12:19] <crimsun> \sh: ok, because I've merged 4.1.0-1ubuntu1 (it just finished building)
[12:19] <\sh> crimsun: if you want to have a look: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/immodule-qt/2005-June/000732.html
[12:19] <crimsun> ok
[12:19] <\sh> crimsun: there is a test app as well...you can try to test the qt4 stuff with this test application if the KeyRelease event works with applied immodule patch
[12:20] <\sh> crimsun: if not, you have to apply the patch from this guy
[12:20] <seb128> fabbione: seems a reasonable request, could you open a bug about that? :)
[12:20] <fabbione> seb128: sure
[12:20] <seb128> thanks
[12:21] <ulaas> new usplash is nothing but black. is that ok? should i file ?
[12:21] <infinity> ulaas: ls -l /usr/lib/usplash/usplash-artwork.so
[12:22] <ulaas> /usr/lib/usplash/usplash-artwork.so -> /etc/alternatives/usplash-artwork.so
[12:22] <infinity> update-alternatives --display usplash-artwork.so
[12:24] <ulaas> usplash-artwork.so - status is auto.
[12:24] <ulaas>  link currently points to /usr/lib/usplash/usplash-default.so
[12:24] <ulaas> /usr/lib/usplash/usplash-default.so - priority 10
[12:24] <ulaas> Current `best' version is /usr/lib/usplash/usplash-default.so.
[12:25] <infinity> Kay, that's fine then.
[12:25] <infinity> When did it start going "all black" for you?
[12:26] <ulaas> infinity, yesterday there was new usplah and initscripts update. today i made a reboot. i noticed.
[12:27] <ulaas> infinity, want me to reboot one more time just to be sure?
[12:27] <Mithrandir> hmm, can block devices have labels, not just file systems?
[12:28] <infinity> ulaas: Can you run "update-initramfs -u", tell me if there's no output (if not, good), then reboot again?
[12:29] <ulaas> infinity, i did. no output. now rebooting. will get back to you soon
[12:36] <ulaas> infinity, now worked. do you want me to report further issues with usplash to you?
[12:37] <infinity> ulaas: Filing bugs works for me, but I end up having to care about them. :)
[12:38] <ulaas> infinity, ok then first i will try to mention to you. if not available i can file a bug.
[12:39] <crimsun> elmo: please sync pstoedit, soap-lite, octave2.1, anjuta, balsa, openbox, wmfire, and rxvt-unicode from Sid, overriding Ubuntu changes. Thanks!
[12:54] <dholbach> elmo: could you please sync texinfo (dropping changes is ok), and could we talk about gutenprint? I'm not quite sure, what else is to be done apart from asking for the sync (which seems ok to me) and removing the old gimpprint source from the archive.
[12:58] <raphink> elmo: it seems the superkaramba source package (which is marked as to be merged) should be nuked since superkaramba is now provided by the kdeutils package
[01:39] <blue-frog> hi guys. want to fill in things I find that goes wrong with dapper but am not sure about where and how i should proceed. For example if i find out that video i810 is slower than in breezy, it's not what we can call a bug or is it?
[01:40] <ogra_ibook> how do you define "slower" ?
[01:40] <lifeless> 'less fast'
[01:40] <ogra_ibook> haha
[01:40] <lifeless> boom-tish
[01:40] <blue-frog> 400K against 1000k with glxgears
[01:40] <Treenaks> blue-frog: you said the magic word
[01:41] <ogra_ibook> blue-frog, how did you get the frame output from glxgears ? 
[01:41] <blue-frog> glxgears -printfps
[01:41] <blue-frog> in breezy and in dapper
[01:42] <Mithrandir> blue-frog: glxgears is not a benchmark.  It's a sample application.
[01:43] <ulaas> blue-frog, i am sure you have checked you had dri enable right?
[01:43] <ogra_ibook> oh, has daniels changed it back again ? 
[01:43] <ogra_ibook> former you needed also -iacknowledgethatthisprogramisnobenchmarkofanykind or something like this ...
[01:43] <blue-frog> ok let's forget video then.. about sonypi failing on a vaio, is that conisedered a bug?
[01:43] <ogra_ibook> i wonder why he took it out again
[01:44] <Mithrandir> blue-frog: quite possibly, feel free to file a bug in bugzilla
[01:44] <blue-frog> it's just am not sure what a bug is, i don't want to start filling plenty of bugs if they are not considered as bugs. don't want to waste your time and mine
[01:48] <raphink> blue-frog: a bug is a small animal, like an insect. If you like collecting them, you can get a net and get some around, then file them in a book.
[01:48] <blue-frog> interesting
[01:48] <raphink> ;)
[01:49] <Mithrandir> blue-frog: a bug is a when a program doesn't behave as it should.  An example here is sonypi not working on your vaio
[01:50] <blue-frog> k ty
[01:50] <raphink> or my keyboard not wanting to print ^ accents the right way :@
[01:50] <raphink> this is a bug, too
[01:51] <blue-frog> right now am in https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+bugs-all, right place to fill in bugs, correct?
[01:51] <raphink> yes blue-frog if you're using dapper
[01:51] <blue-frog> not using testing...
[01:52] <raphink> ?
[01:54] <jbailey> seb128: This x-chat gnome is strange to get used to. =)
[01:56] <ogra_ibook> jbailey, fully agreed
[01:56] <raphink> weird things on my system today
[01:59] <seb128> jbailey: any particular issue with it? 
[02:00] <seb128> jbailey: I used it for some months and I've no issue, but I'm an easy client ... I just need a list of chans and a good notification system (which xchat-gnome has, it opens notify bubble with who talked to you want what he said)
[02:01] <jbailey> seb128: The ones that have come up so far: The triangle to expand the topic shouldn't be there if there's nothing to expand.  I spend a good 30 seconds playing with it trying to figure out what it was doing when I clicked it in another channel. =)
[02:01] <jbailey> seb128: Once I've clicked on the userlist to see the users, it would be nice to have the old equivalent of double clicking on them or something as an equivalent of /wii FOO
[02:01] <seb128> jbailey: right, the topic stuff is not optimal :)
[02:01] <jbailey> A right click action would be fine.
[02:02] <jbailey> seb128: I seem to have a <none> channel or server in my serverlist that I can't get rid of.
[02:03] <seb128> jbailey: serverlist, like the properties dialog?
[02:03] <jbailey> seb128: The window immediately to the left of this chat window.
[02:03] <dexem> jbailey: are you the maintainer of "locales"? I've seen this: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16216 and I would like to know if it could be corrected for breezy...
[02:03] <infinity> jbailey: Right-click on the <none> and "close"
[02:03] <infinity> jbailey: At least, that's how I got rid of mine just now.
[02:04] <seb128> hum
[02:04] <jbailey> dexem: Locales changes are rarely changed in released versions.  People may have setup their machines to compensate for that and it could break things to change it now.
[02:04] <jbailey> dexem: It should already be fixed in Dapper, I think, but I haven't been able to check it.
[02:04] <raphink> hmm
[02:04] <jbailey> infinity: Ah that works, but the 'x' when I clicked on it didn't work, thanks.
[02:04] <raphink> there's no use of debconf in locales anymore? o_O
[02:05] <dexem> jbailey: aham, ok. Thanks :)
[02:05] <jbailey> seb128: In this channel with the larger topic, I tend to associate the 'x' with the topic rather than the window, so I might be inclined to click on it to shrink the topic.
[02:05] <jbailey> seb128: You can see that these are all minor UI nits.
[02:05] <jbailey> seb128: But it does leave me with the feeling of 'weird'
[02:05] <seb128> yeah
[02:05] <seb128> jbailey: do you have some autoconnect ?
[02:06] <jbailey> seb128: I don't.  I keep separate accounts for work and home and choose the one I want at startup.
[02:06] <seb128> jbailey: those are small things, nice than you point them now so they can get fixed for dapper :)
[02:06] <jbailey> I have to be able to get away from y'all sometimes. ;)
[02:06] <koke> jbailey: it's not fixed in dapper, I've just attached to that bug a patch for breezy glibc and another for dapper langpack-locales
[02:06] <seb128> jbailey: oh, is there some profile? or you just set a nickname and pick some chans at every startup?
[02:06] <seb128> jbailey: right, I've the <none> too with no autoconnect
[02:07] <jbailey> koke: Ah, okay.  Thanks.
[02:07] <jbailey> I'll ping MArtin when he's around next.  i'm not actually sure how to update the locales now. =)
[02:07] <infinity> seb128: Really?... When I start and pick a network, it connects to it... I only have <none> while the network in question can't be connected to.
[02:07] <koke> jbailey: any ideas on which's the best option for fixing that in dapper
[02:08] <jbailey> seb128: I have server profiles that I defined.  So  00Home Servers  and  00Ubuntu Servers  are in the list, and I just double click on the one I want.
[02:08] <infinity> seb128: Which happened cause I picked a network that wouldn't let me on. :)
[02:08] <koke> we are working on a derivative, but versioning glibc... not a good idea
[02:08] <jbailey> koke: Is the dapper one in that bug report, or is there a different one?
[02:08] <seb128> jbailey: oh, oki
[02:08] <koke> jbailey: the dapper one is http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=5632
[02:08] <jbailey> seb128: It means I still get all my automatic nickserv'ing and all that with a minimum of hassle.
[02:08] <koke> but I haven't tested yet
[02:09] <seb128> infinity: when there is no autoconnect it puts a <none> by default here, and I've connected a server it has opened a new entry ...
[02:09] <jbailey> seb128: There's alot that I like.  The server list being on the left out of my field of vision is nice, and the "random conversation" icon doesn't pull my eye at all.
[02:09] <infinity> seb128: Oh, weird.
[02:09] <jbailey> seb128: Having the reduced window for clicking on links is also lovely.
[02:09] <jbailey> koke: Ah, which derivative?
[02:10] <seb128> jbailey: you mean the URL plugin?
[02:10] <jbailey> seb128: The old x-chat did that until recently, and then they started replacing the NULL window with the first server openned.
[02:10] <jbailey> seb128: They changed tht in the last month, I think.
[02:11] <jbailey> seb128: I have no checkboxes in any of my plugins.
[02:11] <jbailey> seb128: Since there's no description of what they do, I didn't want to enable any of them.
[02:11] <seb128> jbailey: what is "the reduced window for clicking on links" ?
 jbailey: the dapper one is http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=5632
[02:11] <dexem> jbailey: we are working on Tirwal Linux (a small spanish local distribution). We are using ubuntu and guadalinex as our starting point
[02:12] <jbailey> seb128: When I put my mouse over that URL, it underlines, like in old x-chat.
[02:12] <seb128> auto-away set you away when gnome-screensaver starts
[02:12] <seb128> ah, ok
[02:12] <jbailey> seb128: When Iright-click, I only have "Open in browser", and "Copy URL".
[02:12] <seb128> notification is a notify area stuff
[02:12] <jbailey> seb128: Which is very nice, thanks.  It even correctly defaults to ephy for me, so it's good.
[02:12] <seb128> osd uses libnotify to open bubbles when somebody talks to you on a chan or in query
[02:13] <jbailey> dexem: Nice!  Did you just fork glibc for the locales stuff?
[02:13] <jbailey> seb128: Ahahah, really?
[02:13] <jbailey> I wonder if my screensaver still hangs my machine.
[02:13] <dexem> jbailey: Well... we haven't decided anything yet. We have discovered the problem (and its solution) today
[02:14] <jbailey> dexem: locales is no longer from the glibc source in dapper.
[02:14] <koke> jbailey: the distro is based on breezy
[02:16] <jbailey> koke: Right.  More to let you know that you can sidestep that pain in the future. =)
[02:17] <jbailey> koke: Having to touch glibc just to fix minor locale issues is a bit excessive.
[02:17] <koke> jbailey: yep, but having calendar starting on Sunday is not good for us
[02:17] <jbailey> koke: It would be easy enough to update in Breezy, but that's my concern - that people may have worked around the problem.  I'd hate to have calendaring or scheduling start to go wrong for people just because we fixed a bug that's been there for many years.
[02:18] <raphink> anyone has an idea what a problem linked to the ^ key system-wide might be linked to?
[02:18] <jbailey> seb128: Funky popout bubble.
[02:18] <koke> jbailey: according to the gtk cvs logs it's likely to have been made visible around september
[02:18] <raphink> not only it does not work properly, but when I type ^+e for example, several times, I get nothing ; but then if I try to use the backspace key, it deletes the prompt!
[02:18] <seb128> jbailey: yeah :)
[02:19] <koke> so, the clock applet (amongst other software) shows a wrong calendar
[02:20] <hunger> What is the nick of Scott James Remnand? He is on IRC, isen't he?
[02:21] <jbailey> koke: I'd have to punt the question to mdz (bug#16216 for breezy for your nick hightlight, Matt).  As I said, I'm not thrilled about it, but doing the patch and upload is easy enough.
[02:21] <raphink> anyone knows where I shall report a ^/ key issue?
[02:24] <infinity> hunger: No, Keybuk doesn't IRC.
[02:24] <sivang> infinity: he's not? I thought he was, that's a shame.
[02:25] <hunger> Oh, Keybuk is scott? great:-)
[02:28] <sivang> infinity: IIRC he usually shows up in here , no?
[02:28] <Kamion> sivang: YHBT, YHL, HAND
[02:29] <sivang> Kamion: ?
[02:29] <Kamion> http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Y/YHBT.html
[02:29] <sivang> doh! :-)
[02:33] <jbailey> seb128: Other observations.  It doesn't seem to be possible to set my other-highlights, which I guess might not be a common enough feature for others (I usually highlight on my package names as well), and when a highlight is triggered, it no longer flashes the button in the panel.  I suspect that behaviour should come back, since it's consistant with when firefox or evo have popped up a menu or something that needs your i
[02:33] <jbailey> mmediate attention.
[02:34] <phlax> hi there - ive upgraded to dapper, and my second xinerama screen (os radeon driver) has ceased to work. I was wondering if anyone knows of changes in X that might have caused this, or should i file a bug?
[02:34] <Treenaks> phlax: file a bug
[02:34] <Treenaks> there have been LOADS of changes in X
[02:35] <jbailey> There have been STORES of changes, too...
[02:35] <jbailey> =)
[02:35] <phlax> right - i was just wondering if there was an obvious conf change.
[02:35] <seb128> jbailey: for the notification there is the "notify" plugin which use the notification area
[02:36] <jbailey> seb128: Yeah..  On a 20" cinema display, a little icon popping up is no where near my field of vision.
[02:36] <seb128> jbailey: use the osd plugin to get bubbles? :)
[02:36] <seb128> jbailey: BTW how do you customize you highlight list with xchat?
[02:36] <HiddenWolf> jbailey, I manage with a 24" widescreen. The trick is to unglue your nose from the monitor. :)
[02:36] <seb128> that's a preference option?
[02:36] <jbailey> HiddenWolf: That just means enlarging my fonts even further..  Or finding my glasses.  I haven't seen them in over a year. =)
[02:37] <HiddenWolf> =)
[02:37] <jbailey> seb128: There's a comma separated list of words to use for highlights in one of the preferences boxes.
[02:37] <sivang> jbailey: you need anew pair then!
[02:37] <jbailey> seb128: I'm more arguing that if other apps are using flashing panel button for urgent notification, perhaps this one should too.
[02:37] <jbailey> seb128: Which is also what old x-chat did.
[02:38] <jbailey> I think it's arguable that someone talking to you is as urgent as the fact that I need to type in a username/password for a web page/
[02:38] <seb128> jbailey: I'm not sure that everything using the urgent flag is nice
[02:39] <seb128> jbailey: gaim/xchat which do that are not GNOME apps ... :)
[02:39] <jbailey> seb128: Right.  I often wish that other things wouldn't. =)
[02:39] <seb128> the GNOME way would rather be to use the notification area
[02:39] <jbailey> seb128: But interactive conversations do tend to require urgent response. =)
[02:39] <jbailey> Ah okay.
[02:39] <jbailey> So more that things are migrating to the notification area.
[02:39] <seb128> "'notification area", it's in the name :p
[02:40] <jbailey> seb128: True.  Although it generally seems to be a holding place for things rather than a notification area.
[02:40] <jbailey> seb128: (thinking rhythmbox, evo, gaim here...)
[02:40] <seb128> right, apps tend to abuse of it instead of using applets
[02:41] <jbailey> i thought everyone was told not to use applets awhile back.
[02:42] <HiddenWolf> perhaps it will change if the applets system gets overhauled, like was planned an age ago and now possibly revived by the bonobo-free port of panel+applets
[02:43] <seb128> jbailey: I doubt of that, people were told to not abuse the notification area for applets job though :)
[02:43] <jbailey> seb128: =)
[02:43] <seb128> the issue with applet is they are not dynamic atm
[02:43] <seb128> users have to add them
[02:44] <seb128> jbailey: I've just opened a few bugs upstream according to what you pointed :)
[02:44] <jbailey> seb128: Thanks.
[02:44] <seb128> np
[02:45] <jbailey> It'll be interesting to watch this package evolve.
[02:46] <sladen> seb128: where's your gnome-panel Applications Menu/gam_server disappearing bug?  I have a patch
[02:47] <seb128> sladen: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=323064
[02:47] <seb128> there is a patch upstream too
[02:47] <seb128> but according to the comment they want to drop inotify code from gam_server since gnome-vfs does inotify directly now
[02:48] <seb128> I've to patch/rebuild gnome-menus to use gnome-vfs API instead of gam one
[02:48] <tseng> that doesnt make sense to me
[02:48] <sivang> sladen: wow, what was the problem, how did you find it? 
[02:48] <seb128> sivang: the issue is well known for ages, maybe he read the bug? :p
[02:49] <seb128> sivang: gam_server send a wrong signal on broken symlink
[02:49] <seb128> tseng: what?
[02:49] <tseng> seb128: that just gives fam apps crappy dnotify polling
[02:50] <sivang> seb128: /me goes to read that interesting bug, reckon much has changed there since I last glanced at it.
[02:50] <tseng> no one is going to automatically start using gnomevfs
[02:50] <sladen> seb128: http://www.paul.sladen.org/ubuntu/bugs/gnome-panel_2.13.4-0ubuntu3.applications-menu-disappearing.deb.diff
[02:50] <sivang> seb128: I deserved the :p :)
[02:50] <sivang> sladen: or better, read your patch :)
[02:50] <sladen> if seb128's patch is in, it wasn't working as of an hour ago
[02:51] <seb128> tseng: if you want to step to maintain gam_server/inotify you are probably welcome
[02:51] <sivang> sladen: nice
[02:51] <seb128> sladen: the patch is not in, it breaks the testsuite somewhere, I was waiting on them to sort that
[02:51] <seb128> tseng: nothing out of gnome-menus from the GNOME desktop uses gam API ..
[02:51] <zul> heylo
[02:51] <seb128> tseng: and gnome-menus has a patch
[02:51] <tseng> hm ok
[02:52] <seb128> gnome-vfs was using gam_server before
[02:52] <seb128> that's why everything use it
[02:52] <seb128> apps usually just use gnome-vfs functions for that
[02:53] <tseng> my apps are using inotify directly atm
[02:53] <ulaas> i have lots of jittering movement while moving windows
[02:53] <tseng> so cool
[02:54] <seb128> vuntz_: any opinion on http://www.paul.sladen.org/ubuntu/bugs/gnome-panel_2.13.4-0ubuntu3.applications-menu-disappearing.deb.diff ? That's for the app menu issue. The bug is due to gam_server but maybe that change for the panel is correct anyway, if you want to have a look on it
[02:55] <sladen> seb128: I think there maybe two bugs;  one that gamin is sending the notify;  and the other is that gnome-panel/menu.c is hosing the menu and then scheduling an update (rather than getting the function doing the update to take care of the destorying).  I approached that patch from the second PoV
[02:55] <ulaas> seb128, i had that issue on my laptop. which was dapper as well
[02:56] <seb128> ulaas: the issue is well known and due to /var/lib/menu-xdg/menus/debian-menu.menu not beeing here (which breaks /etc/xdg/menus/debian-menu.menu)
[02:56] <seb128> sladen: I've pointed it to vuntz who is upstream for gnome-panel, let's wait on his comment 
[02:56] <ulaas> seb128, ah ok.
[02:57] <sladen> seb128: nod
[02:57] <seb128> ulaas: it'll be fixed rsn
[02:57] <raphink> my ^/ key stopped working properly. Any idea what think can be linked to guys?
[02:57] <ulaas> seb128, not a problem for me anymore i dont have that problem for a long time..
[02:59] <raphink> hmm hello ! major encoding bug here, anyone interested?
[02:59] <raphink> :s
[02:59] <Treenaks> raphink: looks like valid UTF-8 to me
[02:59] <Treenaks> raphink: that's the ^/[umlaut or trema]  key?
[02:59] <raphink> Treenaks: my problem is not with printing ^ or 
[02:59] <raphink> I can't use them with voyels anymore
[03:00] <raphink> I can't type ^e or e
[03:00] <raphink> or any kind of stuff like this
[03:00] <raphink> and whenever I try to in a tty and use backspace afterwards, it deletes my prompt ;)
[03:00] <Treenaks> raphink: locale charmap gives UTF-8 ?
[03:00] <raphink> yes
[03:00] <Treenaks> hmm
[03:00] <raphink> I've used UTF-8 as my default for months
[03:00] <raphink> without a pb
[03:00] <raphink> I began to have system-wide problems with that yesterday evening
[03:01] <seb128> maybe an xorg issue?
[03:01] <raphink> it seems each time I use ^+anykey, it deletes a char
[03:01] <raphink> seb128: nope it does it in tyys
[03:01] <raphink> ttys
[03:01] <seb128> ah
[03:01] <raphink> for example
[03:02] <raphink> I type 
[03:02] <raphink> the following series of keys in a tty
[03:02] <raphink> ^ a ^ a backspace backspace
[03:02] <raphink> and it deletes the $ in the end of the prompt
[03:03] <vuntz_> seb128: patch looks weird :-)
[03:03] <ulaas> anjuta crashes on startup on dapper
[03:03] <raphink> each ^+anykey+backspace will delete one more char in the prompt
[03:03] <raphink> beginning with the space following the $
[03:04] <vuntz_> sladen: what's the first function where you move the code?
[03:04] <raphink> what do you think seb128 ?
[03:04] <jbailey> seb128: I'm surprised they kept the lag indicator in the lower left, with no other information in the status bar.
[03:04] <seb128> raphink: I've no idea on the issue
[03:04] <jbailey> Seems like a waste of space.
[03:04] <ulaas> ah great LP is down for maint.
[03:04] <raphink> seb128: where do you think I should report it?
[03:05] <seb128> raphink: bugzilla? dunno on what package though
[03:05] <raphink> that's my question actually , which package ;)
[03:05] <seb128> jbailey: hum, that's right!
[03:05] <seb128> raphink: try to figure what you updated between the moment it worked and the moment you started getting the issue
[03:06] <raphink> hmm
[03:06] <sladen> vuntz_: handle_gmenu_tree_changed() -> submenu_to_display()
[03:07] <vuntz_> sladen: I don't get it, sorry
[03:07] <vuntz_> sladen: handle_gmenu_tree_changed() should not be called when the menu opens
[03:07] <jbailey> seb128: Oh hey, there's a big highlighting box in the middle of the preferences page which I had somehow completely skipped over.
[03:07] <jbailey> seb128: *sigh*  One day I'll have to ask mpt why that happens. =)
[03:07] <vuntz_> sladen: if it happens, then there's another bug somewhere
[03:08] <seb128> jbailey: ah, right :)
[03:08] <vuntz_> hrm
[03:08] <sladen> vuntz_: "There's half a bottle of milk in the fridge.  I need to get some more tomorrow, but I'll throw away the current one now, even though the shops don't open for another 14hours"
[03:09] <vuntz_> sladen: in fact, the way we're doing stuff right now is broken, to be honest
[03:09] <sladen> vuntz_: whether or not is should be, it is getting called.  GDB and debug build got me that far :)
[03:09] <vuntz_> we should not remove the items, but update them
[03:09] <vuntz_> sladen: the question, is why is it being called? :-)
[03:10] <blue-frog> in xchat-gnome 0.8 my logged in user shows up with my IP (n=admin@81...) while I can use another name in Xchat IRC (n=james@81...). Will this be change in future Xchat-gnome?  
[03:10] <vuntz_> I understand the patch fixes the symptom, though
[03:13] <seb128> vuntz_: the bug is due to gam_server/inotify as said, which sends wrong signal, it's going to be fixed
[03:13] <ogra_ibook> seb128, wouldnt the right patch be to not have the broken symlink in menu-xdg ?
[03:14] <ogra_ibook> s/patch/fix
[03:14] <seb128> ogra_ibook: no, the right fix would be for gam_server to no shock on broken symlink
[03:14] <sladen> vuntz_: how long does a build of libgnome with symbols take?
[03:14] <seb128> 1 min
[03:14] <sladen> oh, okay
[03:15] <ogra_ibook> seb128, i guess both should be done ...
[03:15] <seb128> ogra_ibook: ok, I'll open a bug and assign it to you for the menu-xdg/menu issue, one beeing universe not the other, good luck to fix it
[03:15] <sladen> gam_server shouldn't send crap.  gnome-panel shouldn't barf on getting crap.
[03:15] <tvo> anyone knows which pkg provides /usr/include/GL/gl.h in dapper atm? (or should provide)
[03:15] <sladen> either would be fine, both is correct
[03:18] <ogra_ibook> seb128, if it can wait until after feature freeze, i'm all open for it ... feels odd to have packages installing dangling symlinks ...
[03:18] <seb128> ogra_ibook: seems you don't have any real bugs to bother with that :)
[03:19] <ogra_ibook> i expect it to becomme a bit more silent post feature freeze :)
[03:19] <vuntz_> sladen: so
[03:20] <vuntz_> sladen: gnome-panel doesn't do anything
[03:20] <vuntz_> sladen: gnome-menus is getting the crap
[03:20] <vuntz_> not gnome-panel
[03:20] <vuntz_> then gnome-menus tells the panel: "stop! something changed!"
[03:23] <sladen> okay.  I just couldn't see a separate applet called  gnome-menus (which is what I was expecting)
[03:23] <Keybuk> mvo: ping?
[03:24] <sladen> could it be that  handle_gmenu_tree_changed()  is getting called because it _itself_ changes the  contents of the menu (by deleteing it) and therefore schedules a signal, which calls itself, ... et al
[03:25] <vuntz_> sladen: I hope not: handle_gmenu_tree_changed() deletes the contents of the menu, not the .desktop files
[03:25] <vuntz_> so there shouldn't be any loop there
[03:25] <vuntz_> if there is, then something is really broken
[03:27] <mvo> Keybuk: pong
[03:30] <sivang> sladen: interestingly related, I haven't been able to reproduce the menus bug on my office dapper, any idea why?
[03:31] <mdke> infinity, ping #2 on ubuntu-docs
[03:33] <seb128> sivang: did you read the bug ?
[03:33] <mdke> Kamion, get my /query? hope that is ok
[03:33] <seb128> sivang: do you have "menu" installed? ls -l /var/lib/menu-xdg/menus/debian-menu.menu ?
[03:34] <Kamion> mdke: yes
[03:35] <mdke> Kamion, thanks a lot
[03:36] <infinity> mdke: Gah.  I knew there was something I was forgetting.  Seriously.  Okay, before I go to bed, I'm writing a note in a REALLY BIG FONT on my desktop.
[03:37] <mdke> infinity, thanks :)
[03:39] <blue-frog> when filling in a bug at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug do I have to precise for dapper or is implicite?
[03:50] <sivang> seb128: I didn't have it, I installed it, gnome-session-remove'd gnome-panel, then restarted it, still can't reproduce. applications menu works as expected.
[03:51] <Keybuk> oooooh
[03:51] <Keybuk> you can drag folders of mp3s onto Totem
[03:51] <Keybuk> \o/
[03:51] <Keybuk> seb128: btw, can evolution's pointless little clock n-icon go away?
[03:51] <dexem_away> I have a problem with breezy... http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pantallazo5cg.png, and I was going to fill a bug, but I don't know if I should do it on Ubuntu bugzilla (I don't know if it's a distro problem) or on gnome bugzilla... The most weird thing is that with LANG=C it doesn't happen: http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot4rg.png
[03:51] <dexem_away> anyone have seen this problem before?
[03:52] <ogra_ibook> Keybuk, thanks for ltsp sound approval btw ...
[04:03] <elmo> seb128: ?
[04:04] <elmo> or that french gnome guy will do, what's his name... dholbach?
[04:04] <dholbach> hahahaha
[04:04] <ogra_ibook> lol
[04:04] <elmo> do we want librsvg source from debian?
[04:05] <dholbach> elmo: i have to have a look
[04:05] <jbailey> mvo: ping?
[04:14] <mvo> jbailey: pong
[04:16] <vuntz_> dholbach: oh, you were promoted from german to french? :-)
[04:16] <Treenaks> Dutch, you mean ;)
[04:17] <dholbach> vuntz_: elmo was the one who said "bon jr" every day to me at UBZ :)
[04:17] <Keybuk> elmo's subtle like that
[04:21] <Kamion> elmo: yo? #ubuntu-meeting
[04:21] <Kamion> aha
[04:21] <dholbach> elmo: i need to ask seb about that, we'll need to do a merge, but in general it's preferable to have the librsvg source package
[04:21] <dholbach> elmo: can you sync texinfo please, if you find the time (ok to override)
[04:22] <dholbach> elmo: and about gutenprint: i'm ok with the sync, i checked the packaging and the files in the packages - i just wasnt sure, if there would be any other magic involved (apart from removing the gimp-print source from the archive afterwards)
[04:22] <sivang> hmm, what's the thing with the dict applet that won't close it' swindow after usage? :)
[04:23] <sivang> it sticks there in the face and won't go away ..
[04:25] <elmo> dholbach: ok, synced both - thanks
[04:25] <sladen> vuntz_ / seb128 : ~/.config/....  not existing seems to be causing a DELETED event to be sent?
[04:25] <dholbach> elmo: cool
[04:25] <dholbach> elmo: so i can close two bugs :)
[04:26] <seb128> elmo: I'll update librsvg/sync with Debian this week
[04:26] <vuntz_> sladen: looks like a bug :-)
[04:26] <infinity> elmo : Did you catch my sync request in #-toolchain?
[04:26] <seb128> Keybuk: it'll go away for dapper, upstream have been bugged several times about it already :)
[04:27] <elmo> infinity: yeah
[04:28] <infinity> elmo: Spiffy.
[04:30] <sistpoty> infinity: do you happen to have some time for fpc bootstrapping?
[04:30] <infinity> sistpoty: It's 2:30am, so no, not today, but email me (adconrad@ubuntu.com) with the details, and I can ping you when I have a moment.
[04:31] <sistpoty> infinity: ok, will do... should be ease (it works with debian packges on i386)... thx!
[04:36] <sistpoty> elmo: please sync rlog from unstable, ubuntu override ok. Thx.
[04:39] <mdz> jbailey: the first_weekday stuff wouldn't actually change any calendar events, right? just the display of the calendar?
[04:41] <Keybuk> mvo: I see your point
[04:44] <Mithrandir> mdz: we have persistent live cd support now.
[04:46] <blue-frog> everytime i fill in a bug it insists in assigning it to ubuntu, then i target dapper and i reject ubuntu. is there a way i can aasign it right away to dapper (thus not making duplicates)?
[04:55] <sladen> vuntz_: yes, the extranous upate is coming from a symlink existing, but not its destination sending a _CREATED notify
[04:56] <sladen> vuntz_: but why that is being sent only when the menu is shown, I don't know
[04:57] <vuntz_> sladen: maybe because we're trying to read the symlink?
[04:58] <sistpoty> elmo: please sync zipios++ from unstable, ubuntu override ok, thx.
[05:00] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: you said earlier that multiple copy_exec calls for the same binary should work?  In my testing, it doesn't; update-initramfs gives an error
[05:01] <Keybuk> I did?
[05:01] <Keybuk> I don't ever remember saying that
[05:01] <dexem> mdz: do you think first_weekday calendar thing could be fixed for breezy?
[05:01] <Keybuk> are you sure it was me?
[05:01] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: fairly
[05:01] <mdz> Mithrandir: cool!
[05:02] <Keybuk> I bet you it wasn't
[05:03] <Mithrandir> mdz: it needs a bit of UI work (so it's selectable in the bootloader and there needs to be some docs on how to prepare the USB drive), but it's mostly there.
[05:03] <Mithrandir> mdz: also, it doesn't work on ppc, since block devices don't have labels, filesystems have labels.
[05:04] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I can't find it at least, so it probably wasn't.
[05:15] <sladen> vuntz_: every interation, it's sending  "/home/paul/.config/menus/applications.menu":DELETED, "/etc/xdg/menus/debian-menu.menu"CREATED
[05:15] <vuntz_> is gamin sending this?
[05:15] <sladen> vuntz_: and I wouldn't expect the _DELETED to be sent more than once ...unless ...we're reregistering for it by creating and destroying the menu
[05:16] <sladen> vuntz_: which makes it even more chicken and egg-ish
[05:16] <vuntz_> we're keeping the GTree object, AFAIK
[05:16] <vuntz_> GMenuTree
[05:17] <mindlace> debian and ubuntu have quite outdated versions of openldap that contain a bug that causes slapd to run extremely slowly. I am compiling openldap 2.3.11 for myself, and believe I'm at least following the LSB. What is my concrete next-step to getting a more recent LDAP into ubuntu?
[05:18] <dholbach> bbl
[05:32] <Mithrandir> mdz: if you could, at some point, look at if you're happy with the live cd.  The version in the archive doesn't have usplash integration working correctly yet, and keyboard chooser is missing.  Apart from that, I think it's fine.  If you could look at it and verify, I'd be happy.
[05:49] <mdz> Mithrandir: the last version I tried, which was about a week ago, looked great except for the two items you mention
[05:49] <mdz> Mithrandir: thanks for getting it into shape
[05:53] <Mithrandir> mdz: ok, the usplash should be there tomorrow, I'm less sure about the keyboard stuff.  Colin wants keymapper to spit out X keymaps and switch to using that in d-i instead of having two sets of data, but I haven't gotten keymapper to actually work correctly with X keymaps yet.
[05:58] <jbailey> mdz: It changes which day of the week is first.  So I think it should theoretically just change the display.  I don'
[05:58] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/restart-req.png
[05:58] <Keybuk> \o/
[05:58] <jbailey> 't know that someone wouldn't have done something silly like use the altered value as the index to an array or something.
[05:59] <jbailey> mdz: So it's unlikely to be a problemm, but it's not zero-risk.
[06:00] <mdz> jbailey: if a simple sanity test works, I'm happy with it
[06:00] <LaserJock> Keybuk: how are ~scott/patches/ generated?
[06:00] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk, that is so "the sims"
[06:00] <jbailey> mdz: YezBoss. =)
[06:00] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: yeah, I hate the new ugly notification popups
[06:00] <Keybuk> LaserJock: by a system called NDA
[06:01] <Keybuk> basically for PKG in *; do diff debian/$PKG ubuntu/$PKG > ~/patches/...; done
[06:01] <mvo> is anyone of you sitting behind a proxy that delivers the data in "chunked" encoding?
[06:01] <LaserJock> Keybuk: ok, thanks
[06:01] <HiddenWolf> mvo, how do you know?
[06:02] <Keybuk> LaserJock: was there anything in particular you wanted to know, or any problem you had?  that was a rather open question
[06:02] <mvo> HiddenWolf: a quick way to figure out is to run: "sudo apt-get install --download-only -o Debug::Acquire::http=true 3dchess" and lookinto the http headers for "chunked"
[06:03] <LaserJock> Keybuk: I have been trying to interact with some Debian folks and some of them get a little hot about Ubuntu not giving back patches to DDs and I thought I remembered in Mark's Debconf5 talk something about patches so I was just wondering how they were created, etc.
[06:04] <HiddenWolf> mvo, hm, can't help you then.
[06:04] <mvo> still thanks for checking :)
[06:04] <HiddenWolf> no trouble.
[06:04] <HiddenWolf> and oh, pick a package without dependencies instead. :)
[06:05] <mvo> HiddenWolf: right. it's my standard testpackage (because it used to be on top of the synaptic list) so I have all dependencies already :P
[06:05] <mvo> nowdays we have 2vcard on top, but that was only added a short while ago
[06:06] <HiddenWolf> hah. :)
[06:06] <mdz> Mithrandir: do we have it guessing the layout based on the locale selection from the bootloader yet?
[06:06] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes
[06:06] <Mithrandir> mdz: it works-ish, but frequently gets it wrong.
[06:07] <mdz> Mithrandir: leaving the user to configure it using the GNOME layout selector, which is not so bad
[06:08] <ogra_ibook> mdz, Keybuk approved ltsp sound, do you want to merge it or should i merge and upload ?
[06:08] <Mithrandir> mdz: true, but we don't get it set in the console (at all) yet.
[06:08] <mdz> we can't do too much better non-interactively; I think selecting locale and keymap both from the boot loader would probably result in too many menu items
[06:08] <mdz> ogra_ibook: go ahead, thanks
[06:08] <Keybuk> LaserJock: the patches for all of the packages we've modified are available there
[06:08] <ogra_ibook> thanks :)
[06:08] <Mithrandir> mdz: Kamion seems to think it's sensible, can you to battle it out? :-)
[06:08] <Keybuk> we've even worked with Debian to get that linked from the Debian Package Tracking System
[06:08] <mdz> Mithrandir: what, selecting the layout from the boot loader?
[06:08] <mdz> if we could somehow narrow it to only the ones which are usually ambiguous, that would be ideal
[06:09] <mdz> ogra_ibook: do hwdb submissions include the locale?
[06:09] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, Kamion wants to be able to select keyboard there.  I think it would be better to have it in the bootloader, but it works to not have it there too.
[06:09] <Mithrandir> mdz: yeah, that'd be really sweet.
[06:09] <Keybuk> LaserJock: so, e.g. http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/sysvinit.html has a "Packages from ubuntu for version FOO" link on the left
[06:09] <ogra_ibook> mdz, nope
[06:09] <LaserJock> Keybuk: oh, that's right. I think I have seen that before.
[06:09] <ogra_ibook> but i can add it
[06:10] <Mithrandir> Kamion: can we narrow it down to a reasonable set for the language selected?  So if you chose french you get a selection of french, swiss and possibly some other keymaps?
[06:10] <LaserJock> Keybuk: thanks, I think I've got what I need to do some reply's ;-)
[06:10] <mvo> mdz: what is your general opinion about a (optional) curl based fetcher method for apt?
[06:10] <mdz> mvo: for what purpose?
[06:11] <mvo> mdz: the idea was to not have to maintain the http/ftp downloders ourself, but let libcurl take care of it
[06:12] <mdz> Mithrandir: have you or Kamion looked into the xkb->console keymap widget?
[06:12] <Mithrandir> mdz: I have begun looking at it.
[06:12] <mdz> mvo: I like the idea of using an externally maintained implementation in principle
[06:12] <mdz> mvo: however, I think libcurl's http client is less featureful than apt's
[06:13] <mvo> mdz: in what particular respect? pipelining?
[06:14] <Keybuk> LaserJock: you'll encounter a come-back of "oh, but those aren't in the right format" / "they did things the wrong way, how can I accept that?!" etc.
[06:14] <mdz> mvo: for example
[06:16] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I think that would be achievable, yes
[06:16] <LaserJock> Keybuk: well, as long as I do what I can I will feel better about ignoring those come-backs :-)
[06:17] <Kamion> even if we didn't, though, the keymap menu would be smaller than the locale menu is now
[06:17] <Mithrandir> Kamion: excellent.  I am going to further investigate what's wrong with keymapper tomorrow, I think.
[06:17] <Kamion> so I don't think it's a big deal; I'm happy to hide keymap behind "Other Options" if we don't want to display it by default
[06:17] <Kamion> or perhaps only show the reduced set of keymaps until you select "Other Options", or something like that
[06:18] <Mithrandir> Kamion: that'd be really nice, since we will have people who want their computer to speak mongolian to then, while they do in fact have an italian keyboard.
[06:18] <Mithrandir> though, having those use the keyboard selector in gnome is fine, I think
[06:18] <Kamion> yes, I don't think it's essential
[06:21] <Kamion> RAH, working gparted embedding in espresso
[06:22] <ogra_ibook> wohoo
[06:22] <HiddenWolf> Does it make coffee too? :)
[06:22] <ogra_ibook> only the strong italian one :)
[06:22] <Kamion> looks pretty dreadful as yet, but at least it's there: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/tmp/espresso-gparted.png
[06:23] <Kamion> (and ignore the typos at the left, all that text will probably be replaced)
[06:23] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, can you get rid of the numbers in the location bar?
[06:23] <mvo> Kamion: how do you do it? use GtkSocket/GtkPlug?
[06:23] <dholbach> looks like a good start :)
[06:24] <Kamion> mvo: yes
[06:24] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: you mean the breadcrumbs at the top?
[06:24] <HiddenWolf> yeah
[06:25] <Kamion> sure, a lot of it's inherited from Guadalinex and it's all very rough as yet
[06:25] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, the text alone should be enough. otherwise, start at one, but I'm guessing users can count. :)
[06:25] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: *nod*
[06:26] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, details, sorry. Looks like a sweet start :)
[06:26] <hunger> Kamion: What are those lock-icons signifying?
[06:26] <hunger> Kamion: encrypted partitions?
[06:27] <Kamion> hunger: um, no idea :)
[06:27] <HiddenWolf> hunger, can't be changed at present?
[06:27] <hunger> Why is cups getting started all the time when upgrading?
[06:27] <hunger> It wasn't running before I upgraded, so it shouldn't run afterwards I think.
[06:28] <Kamion> hunger: oh, I think it means "busy", i.e. currently in use
[06:28] <Kamion> so the swap partition is in use and thus the extended partition is too
[06:28] <segfault> express renamed to espresso?
[06:28] <hunger> Kamion: Yes, that is possible... an extended encrypted partition wouldn't make much sense:-)
[06:28] <psusi> lock icons mean you don't have write access
[06:29] <HiddenWolf> psusi, odd to put them there.
[06:29] <psusi> ohh, in gparted?  hrm...
[06:29] <Kamion> segfault: yes, 'ubuntu-express' was a project codename, but it became too confusing because lots of people outside Ubuntu were implementing stuff we weren't going to use in that form and calling it 'ubuntu-express'
[06:30] <segfault> nice, at least in portuguese means the same thing.
[06:30] <psusi> that could be... but I thought if ANY partitions on the disk were in use, you got an EBUSY trying to refresh the partition table
[06:30] <segfault> and now is a native word.
[06:30] <segfault> heh
[06:32] <hunger> Is it OK to change permissions of stuff in /usr in a init-script?!
[06:38] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, did you drom ltsp-client-builder from the edubuntu installer ? 
[06:38] <ogra_ibook> according to anastacia it wants to go to see the universe ...
[06:39] <ogra_ibook> s/drom/drop
[06:39] <Kamion> no ...
[06:40] <Kamion> ltsp-client-builder |    0.1.0-5 |        dapper | source
[06:40] <Kamion> ltsp-client-builder |       0.62 |        dapper | all
[06:40] <Kamion> hmm, that's very odd
[06:40] <Kamion> oh, it's built from ltsp now
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> yup
[06:40] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: anastacia's just talking about the old ltsp-client-builder source package, not the binary
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> since quite some time already
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> ahuman01, fine, thanks :)
[06:41] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: you might as well ask elmo to remove that old source
[06:41] <ogra_ibook> elmo, please remove the ltsp-client-builder source package from the archive 
[06:42] <pryzbyj> Keybuk: there?
[06:42] <Keybuk> pryzbyj: 'sup?
[06:43] <pryzbyj> i don't understand why you said that the normal sed on dpkg status database won't work
[06:43] <hunger> Keybuk: Did you do the recent updates to the initscripts?
[06:44] <hunger> Keybuk: Would you mind adding a chmod 1777 /tmp to the cleantmp function?
[06:44] <Keybuk> pryzbyj: "normal sed" ?
[06:44] <pryzbyj> as on dpkg.org/conffilehandling
[06:44] <Keybuk> hunger: did you unchmod it?
[06:44] <Keybuk> pryzbyj: because you were doing it in postinst, and the md5sum of the old configuration file is gone by then
[06:44] <pryzbyj> yes i understand that
[06:44] <hunger> Keybuk: No, I get a fresh /tmp each reboot:-)
[06:44] <pryzbyj> hold on ..
[06:45] <hunger> Keybuk: I have /tmp on an encrypted partition which changes keys each reboot.
[06:46] <hunger> Keybuk: So I have to format it each startup and whenever I do that the permissions get reset.
[06:47] <Keybuk> hunger: sounds like you're responsible for the hole in your own foot then ;)
[06:47] <hunger> Keybuk: OK, just thought I'd ask.
[06:48] <hunger> Keybuk: I'll just add my own fixes if you do not think it worth doing in the standard scripts.
[06:50] <pryzbyj> Keybuk: i mean the last script that i gave, for 'transferring conffile ownership', not the correction to the first one ..
[06:50] <pryzbyj> which is presinst
[06:50] <pryzbyj> preinst
[06:51] <pryzbyj> if [-e]  if ["$md5sum"="$oldmd5sum"]  rm -f
[06:54] <pryzbyj> Keybuk: http://justinpryzby.com/tmp/keybuk
[06:56] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: ok, numbers removed in my local tree
[06:56] <Kamion> thanks for the suggestion
[06:56] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, yay. :)
[06:58] <pryzbyj> in the worst case i would expect the sarge md5sums to be hardcoded in the maintscripts until etch release ..
[06:58] <Keybuk> pryzbyj: right, where do you get the old md5sum from?
[06:59] <pryzbyj> stats
[06:59] <pryzbyj> status
[06:59] <Keybuk> it isn't in there
[06:59] <Keybuk> which was kinda my point
[06:59] <pryzbyj> i don't understand why; this is preinst!
[06:59] <Keybuk> that's the new md5sum
[06:59] <Keybuk> your mail says that's postinst
[06:59] <pryzbyj> no the 2nd script; not the first
[07:00] <Keybuk> oh, right
[07:00] <pryzbyj> this works, no?
[07:00] <Keybuk> possibly right
[07:00] <Keybuk> except it doesn't allow for aborting
[07:00] <pryzbyj> right
[07:00] <pryzbyj> and it doesn't preserve removal
[07:00] <pryzbyj> but is an improvement anyway
[07:01] <Keybuk> it is?
[07:01] <Keybuk> looks the same to me
[07:04] <pryzbyj__> bah
[07:04] <pryzbyj__> did i miss sth?
[07:09] <Zomb> hi
[07:10] <Zomb> I had problems installing Breezy on amd64 from a Philips/Benq DVD-RW drive. A bad checksum was reported while reading the CD, and I saw messages about "Block size 65534 not supported on this drive." among IO errors in the kernel log.
[07:10] <Zomb> anyone seen that before?
[07:10] <Zomb> the number 65534 looks weird
[07:10] <Zomb> and 2.6.15 with Sid has no problems with the drive
[07:18] <pryzbyj__> Keybuk: i'm going to mail maintainers w that shscript
[07:19] <Keybuk> "maintainers" ?
[07:19] <pryzbyj> ssh, firefox, OO.org, mysql
[07:19] <pryzbyj> presently affected by sarge => testing upgrades
[07:19] <Keybuk> if you're going to mail it to a wide audience, I'd wait until it's finished
[07:19] <pryzbyj> finished how though
[07:19] <Keybuk> in particular, make sure it supports failed upgrades
[07:20] <Keybuk> so have a postrm bit that takes care of putting things back
[07:20] <ogra_ibook> mdz, could we demote ltsp-utils to universe ? i dont understand why its still in main, apt-cache rdepends says its needed by ltsp-client which in fact only has a replaces/conflicts on ltsp-utils ...
[07:20] <ogra_ibook> so there should be nothing keeping it in main
[07:22] <pryzbyj> Keybuk: i don't understand maintscript options that well :/  abort-install?
[07:22] <Keybuk> like I said, look at the Ubuntu udev package
[07:22] <Keybuk> it has improved versions of both rm and mv
[07:22] <pryzbyj> i am
[07:23] <Keybuk> prep_{rm,mv}_conffile in preinst, {rm,mv}_conffile in postinst and undo_{rm,mv}_conffile in postrm
[07:24] <Keybuk> I also have new versions that honour user-removed-conffiles in mv
[07:24] <pryzbyj> ok .. it will take me awhile
[07:24] <mdz> ogra_ibook: it's in main because it's seeded
[07:24] <ogra_ibook> oh... sure ... why am i always expecting to see a metapackage dependency for all stuff in main ...
[07:25] <ogra_ibook> will fix that
[07:25] <pryzbyj> "# Remove a conffile directory if it's not empty
[07:25] <pryzbyj> "  :)
[07:26] <Keybuk> (in prep_mv add 'else\n\ttouch "$CONFFILE".dpkg-gone', in undo_mv add 'rm -f "$CONFFILE".dpkg-gone' and in mv add 'elif [ -f "$OLDCONFFILE".dpkg-gone ] ; then\n\techo "Preserving user removal of $OLDCONFFILE"\nmv -f "$CONFFILE" "$CONFFILE".dpkg-new"
[07:33] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, some guy on -devel list announcing a project for a windows-based installer, doing basicly the ubuntu-express thing.
[07:59] <psusi> that would be a rather large project
[08:01] <jpatrick> yep
[08:01] <psusi> would take several man-months I'd say
[08:02] <psusi> need a lot of code just to be able to manipulate ext3/reiserfs partitions from windows to copy the files
[08:05] <Burgwork> psusi, http://www.fs-driver.org/
[08:05] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: *shrug* there are a million live installers out there, the thing that's different about the one I'm doing is that it integrates tightly with d-i so that we don't have to maintain the same complex code in two places
[08:06] <psusi> Burgwork: that's for windows isn't it?  not usable for installing ubuntu
[08:06] <psusi> can't use the existing ext windows drivers because they don't preserve posix semantics
[08:06] <Burgwork> psusi, it allows you to create and copy the filesystem for completely within windows
[08:06] <psusi> you'd have to manipulate the block device directly
[08:07] <Burgwork> psusi, but I agree with you that it is an icky mess to implement
[08:07] <psusi> Burgwork: it doesn't preserve posix semantics... 
[08:07] <psusi> i.e. it ignores the mode bits and owner
[08:08] <psusi> those need to be preserved to correctly install the system
[08:48] <mdz> BenC: what's your take on the iptables/patch-o-matic thread on kernel-team?
[08:53] <BenC> mdz: sounds like we need to do something, but I don't know enough about it to give a good opinion of what that something should be
[08:54] <zakame> early morning devs :)
[09:00] <BenC> mdz: I'll research it over the weekend when I have some time
[09:07] <psusi> BenC: you get a chance yet to have a gander at that tiny kernel patch I sent you?
[09:07] <psusi> ( it's only 4 lines )
[09:08] <mdz> BenC: thanks
[09:18] <fabbione> mdz: most of the patches that are in patch-o-matic are crack.
[09:18] <fabbione> they are not upstream because not ready to be in the kernel
[09:18] <fabbione> but having the support for userland is almost costless
[09:19] <fabbione> i think the iptables maintainer has been adding all that stuff just because it's partially already there 
[09:20] <trappist> the recent patch, for one, has moved upstream, but the patch-o-matic addition in userspace isn't in agreement with the new kernel code, so it doesn't work
[09:21] <fabbione> trappist: that's not what i said.
[09:21] <fabbione> there is more than just "recent patch"
[09:22] <trappist> recent is the only one I've taken a close look at in dapper
[09:22] <fabbione> the issue imho are all the other crack modules that upstream is not taking because not ready yet
[09:22] <fabbione> exactly
[09:22] <fabbione> an analisys of one module can't talk for all the others
[09:22] <fabbione> you need to look at all of them
[09:22] <fabbione> one by one
[09:23] <trappist> dropping the whole patch-o-matic thing would be fine, but we're still building the userspace iptables against an old enough kernel tree that a lot of stuff that now exists in the kernel won't work because userspace doesn't know about it, or is compiled against an obsolete version of it
[09:24] <fabbione> do you realize that iptables are in sync between 2.4 and 2.6?
[09:25] <trappist> I realize that the same iptables source will build against both trees, if that's what you mean, with a very different list of features
[09:27] <fabbione> trappist: the basic and most important features are all there in both trees
[09:28] <fabbione> the fancy modules might not be
[09:30] <trappist> you can build a functional firewall with the iptables in dapper.  but quite a lot of fancy features have made their way into the linus tree that we don't have because we don't build it against a modern kernel.  I might never have noticed, but there's a bug filed against one of those features, and I took an interest.
[09:31] <fabbione> do you have an example of such ipt_ that's in the kernel and not fully supported by our iptables userland?
[09:31] <BenC> psusi: which one is that?
[09:31] <trappist> just recent, the one in the bug (16831)
[09:31] <fabbione> trappist: you saw one bug, that has been fixed in an -updates. that's all you know
[09:31] <fabbione> and the problem was a path to the kernel headers
[09:32] <psusi> BenC: the pktcdvd and udf fixes
[09:32] <fabbione> that has been fixed
[09:32] <Riddell> Mithrandir: today's kubuntu live CD gives me "user not known to underlying authentication module" is that known?
[09:32] <trappist> fabbione: it hasn't been fixed.  the file that was missing is now there, but a rule with -m recent still throws an error.
[09:32] <BenC> psusi: I replied I believe
[09:32] <fabbione> Riddell: kdebase is FTBFS :)
[09:32] <BenC> psusi: my main question was, does it break current userspace at all
[09:33] <fabbione> trappist: ./kernel/net/ipv4/netfilter/ipt_recent.ko
[09:33] <fabbione> trappist: this is from .12
[09:33] <Riddell> fabbione: yeah, I know
[09:33] <fabbione> trappist: and iptables Userland has been fixed for that
[09:33] <Riddell> where is daniels when you need him
[09:33] <fabbione> trappist: did you upgrade your system?
[09:33] <trappist> yes
[09:33] <Mithrandir> Riddell: what's the date of it?
[09:33] <Riddell> 2006-01-10
[09:35] <Mithrandir> Riddell: I thought I fixed that bug before then, bug me if it's not ok tomorrow
[09:35] <psusi> BenC: nope... it just fixes a bug where udf wasn't saving the owning uid/gid of a file to the disc, fixes a bug where pktcdvd overflowed values > 128 for the packet length from the track info on disc, and allowed a larger maximum packet length
[09:35] <Riddell> Mithrandir: ok, will do
[09:35] <Mithrandir> Riddell: also, make sure that kubuntu-meta is installable.  If that breaks, you might get random old initrds which may or may not work in interesting ways.
[09:36] <fabbione> trappist: works fine here
[09:36] <fabbione> root@trider-g7:~ # iptables -A FORWARD -m recent --name badguy --rcheck --seconds 60 -j DROP
[09:36] <fabbione> root@trider-g7:~ #
[09:36] <Riddell> Mithrandir: looks to be fine
[09:37] <fabbione> Riddell: afaik imake has been replaced. i think you only need to change your B-D
[09:37] <fabbione> anyway.. time to head offline
[09:37] <fabbione> good night everybody
[09:37] <Mithrandir> Riddell: good, make sure to keep it that way. :-)  I know ubuntu-meta was broken this morning, so we had an extra run for me to debug some stuff.
[09:37] <Mithrandir> Riddell: that was python-netcdf, so I imagine kubuntu was broken too
[09:44] <csj> Mitario, hello, I am in the LiveCD now and if I want to disable auto login  gdm, I delete /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/casper-bottom/15autologin but no effect :(    
[09:45] <csj> are all files in  /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/casper-bottom/ will be run when booting?
[09:46] <Kamion> night all
[09:47] <mdke> night Kamion 
[09:47] <zakame> gn8 Kamion :)
[09:47] <dholbach> good night Kamion
[09:52] <psusi> BenC: how long ago did you reply?  because I have no gotten it yet
[10:02] <BenC> psusi: like a day after you sent it, but no matter, the patch generally looks good to me
[10:03] <BenC> psusi: have you sent it to linux-kernel yet? I'd be interested in their feedback. I think jens Axboe handles that code, so CC him
[10:07] <mdke> elmo, Znarl, any chance of getting LaserJock docteam svn access soon?
[10:11] <blue-frog> is it usefull to fill in a bug concerning totem not starting up in dapper? I have the feeling you are already working on that.
[10:12] <Burgwork> blue-frog, have you looked for  a bug?
[10:12] <blue-frog> Burgwork, haven't seen any looking like this one but after an update, the error msg changed that's why I had the feeling someone was already fiddling with it
[10:12] <mdke> doesn't load here either
[10:13] <mdke> "Could not close supporting library"
[10:13] <Burgwork> file a bug
[10:13] <blue-frog> that's before the update
[10:14] <blue-frog> mdke after update there's something else, ok filling in it a bug
[10:14] <mdke> blue-frog, do a search first :) i'm up to date tho
[10:14] <mdke> not dist-upped tho
[10:15] <Burgwork> it is always better to file
[10:15] <blue-frog> talking to me about multimedia system selector, can't seem to find it, any hint?
[10:15] <mdke> i think blue-frog was right to ask, it's probably part of a gstreamer transition or something
[10:16] <mdke> blue-frog, gstreamer-properties
[10:17] <blue-frog> coming from a failed to construct pipeline for xwindows
[10:18] <mdke> blue-frog, #ubuntu can help more maybe
[10:18] <blue-frog> not interested in solving it in #ubuntu, am testing dapper to see if i can help
[10:19] <blue-frog> by finding things that don't work
[10:19] <mdke> blue-frog, bugzilla then
[10:19] <blue-frog> k
[10:21] <blue-frog> last thing, is there a way in bugzilla to assign the bug directly to dapper? so far it creates it in ubuntu then i target fix to dapper and i reject the one for ubuntu, am i doing right?
[10:21] <dholbach> blue-frog: just mention it's dapper
[10:21] <dholbach> do you have gstreamer0.10-x installed?
[10:22] <blue-frog> yes
[10:22] <dholbach> ok
[10:27] <psusi> BenC: ok, will do
[10:39] <Nafallo> fabbione: is network-manager broken? :-P
[10:40] <fabbione> Nafallo: no i don't talk about network manager
[10:40] <fabbione> on 4 machines here.. not even lo is coming up
[10:40] <fabbione> and i can see a lot of clutter at startup
[10:40] <fabbione> the entire net is borked
[10:41] <Nafallo> hmm
[10:41] <Nafallo> sounds like I shouldn't reboot :-P
[10:41] <Nafallo> fix coming tonight? :-)
[10:42] <fabbione> Nafallo: sure.. do you have a patch?
[10:42] <Nafallo> well, seems infinity fixes every trouble I would have had while I'm sleeping ;-)
[10:47] <zakame> hm is LP down?
[10:54] <Burgwork> zakame, so is the wiki
[10:55] <zakame> gaah
[10:55] <zakame> wb TheMuso 
[11:03] <Nafallo> where is the artwork for printing my own Ubuntu business cards? :-)
[11:04] <Burgwork> Nafallo, no idea
[11:04] <Nafallo> would be totally kewl to link it from that page or something? :-)
[11:06] <HiddenWolf> And *who* is going to check that nobody is going to print those cards if he's not a member?
[11:06] <Nafallo> sabdfl ofcourse :-)
[11:07] <Nafallo> jdub? :-)
[11:10] <Burgwork> Nafallo, likely
[11:10] <Nafallo> jdub: ping :-)
[11:11] <Nafallo> BenC: btw, had any reports about machine freezes on amd64-k8? :-/
[11:13] <mvo> elmo: can you please sync python-apt from debian/incoming? (override ok)
[11:16] <BenC> Nafallo: yeah, from breezy
[11:16] <Nafallo> BenC: nothing on dapper since the UP/SMP-kernels became one?
[11:18] <BenC> Nafallo: nothing specific to amd64-k8, no
[11:18] <BenC> Nafallo: is it reproducible?
[11:19] <Nafallo> oki. I've had them since I installed the test-kernel and later the real deal. I don't know what else to blame.
[11:19] <Nafallo> well, it's still happening daily if, but I have no idea how to make it happen :-P.
[11:20] <Nafallo> s/\ if//
[11:20] <BenC> Nafallo: have you been able to get a backtrace of any kind?
[11:21] <Nafallo> nope. right of a sudden things just freezes and I have to kill the laptop with holding down power.
[11:21] <BenC> tried sysrq?
[11:21] <Nafallo> nope
[11:22] <BenC> can't really do much unless I have some sort of back trace
[11:22] <Nafallo> I should probably read about that. first time the kernel freezes for me on this laptop :-).
[11:22] <Nafallo> so never needed to even use that :-P
[11:22] <BenC> There's a page on the wiki about using it
[11:23] <Nafallo> oh! kewl :-)
[11:29] <mdz> Nafallo: DebuggingProcedures
[11:29] <Nafallo> mdz: thanks :-)
[11:33] <Tm_T> does gnash (http://www.fsf.org/news/gnash.html) be included to ubuntu?
[11:34] <HiddenWolf> Tm_T, it's just out man, give everyone a few days to check it out and make up his mind.
[11:34] <Tm_T> HiddenWolf: yes, my point was to raise interest ;)
[11:35] <HiddenWolf> Tm_T, it was sent as a global notice to everyone on freenode.
[11:35] <HiddenWolf> Tm_T, I'm *quite* sure people know.
[11:35] <HiddenWolf> And the first request is on the mailing list too. :)
[11:35] <Tm_T> ...oh, true, I'm bit slow today
[11:35] <Tm_T> HiddenWolf: =)
[11:35] <ajmitch> putting new software requests in the right places helps too
[11:35] <HiddenWolf> =)
[11:35] <HiddenWolf> That too.
[11:35] <Tm_T> ajmitch: true, I'm not requesting
[11:35] <ajmitch> we get too many requests dropped in the motu channel & then left
[11:36] <Tm_T> ajmitch: =)
[11:36] <Tm_T> ajmitch: yes, asking but not helping with it, hurts sometimes
[11:51] <dholbach> I'm off guys - have a nice evening.
[11:51] <lifeless> night
[11:51] <HiddenWolf> s/evening/night
[11:51] <HiddenWolf> Goodnight. :)