[01:40] <LaserJock> mdz: ping?
[01:42] <poningru> so question
[01:43] <poningru> if fat is patented can we still support it?
[01:43] <HiddenWolf> poningru, patent didn't or will not hold up.
[01:43] <psusi> they can't possibly patent it this late in the game... but if they did, no, we couldn't
[01:43] <HiddenWolf> psusi, I think they did, then dropped it.
[01:43] <psusi> they tried, yes... I saw the storry
[01:44] <psusi> and with the crap the patent office has been approving lately, I wouldn't be surprised if they got it
[01:44] <psusi> but I would be surprised if it held of up court if someone with money challenged it
[01:44] <poningru> they just allowed it
[01:44] <HiddenWolf> they did?
[01:45] <psusi> if they actually got a patent approved, I'd like to see it... so I can shoot the clerk who approved it
[01:45] <poningru> http://news.com.com/Microsofts+file+system+patent+upheld/2100-1012_3-6025447.html?part=rss&tag=6025447&subj=news
[01:45] <psusi> you can NOT patent something 25 years after inventing it and after it has become public knowledge
[01:45] <poningru> psusi: my sentiments exactly
[01:45] <HiddenWolf> Microsoft's attempt to create a lucrative future revenue stream from its patent portfolio has tripped at the first hurdle. After an appeal, the US Patent Office has struck down Microsoft's '517 patent (USPTO 5,579, 517) on the FAT file system.
[01:45] <HiddenWolf> 30th september 04
[01:45] <poningru> HiddenWolf: yeah 3 months ago
[01:46] <HiddenWolf> Hm, weird shit.
[01:47] <psusi> even if it meeds the novel and non obvious requirements, once it becomes public knowledge, you can not patent it
[01:47] <mjr> the patents, iirc, had to do with storing long filenames on FAT (truly innovative, yes...)
[01:47] <mjr> so it was not FAT per se
[01:47] <poningru> oh
[01:47] <poningru> gotcha
[01:47] <psusi> he... yea... that was bloody well non obvious.... NOT
[01:48] <psusi> and in any case, it's been widely known and used public knowledge for years, which invalidates any new applications for patent
[01:48] <HiddenWolf> gees, it's been around since '77
[01:48] <poningru> doh thats me not reading the articles
[01:48] <HiddenWolf> psusi, someone first has to go to court for it. :)
[01:50] <mdz> LaserJock: pong
[01:50] <psusi> only if the dumb fucking twits in the patent office actually issue a patent
[01:50] <psusi> then yea... someone has to be willing to fork out big bucks for lawyers to go after the patent
[01:51] <poningru> mdz: sorry to bother you but how come you dont blog?
[01:51] <psusi> or rather, someone has to violate the patent, then get sued for it, then fork out big bucks defending themselves
[01:51] <LaserJock> mdz: I'm Jordan Mantha, the plotdrop packager. I was a little uncertain of you your debian-mentors email
[01:52] <zul> heehehe...you said blog
[01:53] <psusi> speaking of that... I'm working up a good blog right now...
[01:53] <psusi> hehe
[01:54] <psusi> oh sheesh.. I'm a retard
[01:54] <psusi> I added the -g to the CFLAGS in the makefile... didn't notice it had a -s in there...
[01:55] <psusi> well, that's enough... time to go home
[02:17] <segfault> that new logout window is nice
[02:17] <segfault> however, it doesn't lock the screen 
[02:19] <segfault> maybe something like gksudo does would be great
[02:31] <Amaranth> it's kind of not finished yet :)
[02:33] <sorush20> Amaranth: anyone here working on making dvd playback and codec32 native linux?
[02:33] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, impossible
[02:33] <HiddenWolf> patentend stuff
[02:33] <HiddenWolf> illegal in the us.
[02:34] <HiddenWolf> and other nations.
[02:34] <Amaranth> not to mention hard/impossible to actually code
[02:34] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, there is that. :)
[02:34] <HiddenWolf> That's what undocumented, unspecified closed standards give you. :)
[02:38] <HiddenWolf> jdub, ping
[02:38] <sorush20> actully code?
[02:39] <sorush20> how hard can it be?
[02:40] <HiddenWolf> quite
[02:41] <Amaranth> sorush20: You have absolutely no details on the format.
[02:41] <sorush20> Amaranth: we are talking about takeing millions of frames are running them in sequence with a sound layer too in sequence.. right?
[02:41] <Amaranth> no
[02:41] <Amaranth> that's the easy part
[02:42] <Amaranth> the codec turns the video file into that
[02:42] <HiddenWolf> getting to the point where you have frames to work with, that's tricky. :)
[02:42] <sorush20> the encoding is just the compression , what you are sying is decompressing is hard right? 
[02:42] <sorush20> and the codec's act as a key to decompress?
[02:44] <sorush20> Linux for human beings is one that can be free and can decode dvd and etc. not one that enables hours of chat and etc. 
[02:45] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, without actually knowing the specifications of the format or the codec, it is working in the blind with a hand tied behind your back
[02:45] <Amaranth> sorush20: Blame the United States Government
[02:45] <Amaranth> and/or the media industry
[02:46] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, closed source means there is _no way_ of knowing what a complex thing does and how it does it without very extensive trial-and-error testing and engineering by very good programmers.
[02:46] <sorush20> HiddenWolf: I'm sure obtaining the file format spec is easyier than getting your hand on the spec for a uranium centrifuge. 
[02:46] <Amaranth> No.
[02:46] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, reverse engineering is forbidden in a lot of countries to complicate matters.
[02:47] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, microsoft is very, very tough on security for it's specs.
[02:47] <Amaranth> One is available with the right friends, the other is only available from a single company that guards it closely.
[02:47] <HiddenWolf> besides, you'd be suid for a felony of IP theft.
[02:47] <HiddenWolf> sued, even.
[02:48] <sorush20> a files format can not even be reverse engineered?
[02:48] <kent> sorush20, if it was possible to ship dvd-support it would have been shipped,  there is no way to expect more friendlyness.  :(
[02:49] <sorush20> the open source formats are not good enough for dvd? 
[02:49] <sorush20> ogg etc. 
[02:49] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, it can be, by talented and dedicated people
[02:49] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, we can write it if we get the specifications
[02:49] <HiddenWolf> we don't have the specs
[02:49] <HiddenWolf> if we had, we'd have no right to use them
[02:49] <HiddenWolf> if we'd ship them if we had we would be sued
[02:50] <HiddenWolf> there is at present no way to legally play dvd or wmv on Linux
[02:50] <sorush20> are we allowed to read the files in alternative methods?
[02:50] <kent> HiddenWolf, but OSX can do it right? so its just about the $ in the end?  Cant say, lika..  a former astronout pay for it? haha. :)
[02:50] <sorush20> what about the blueray disk
[02:50] <Amaranth> sorush20: even worse than DVD
[02:50] <sorush20> shit
[02:50] <HiddenWolf> kent, The question is, do you want to fund development for a couple of years, or pay for mp3 support
[02:51] <HiddenWolf> kent, dvd, bluray, wmv are not for sale at present
[02:51] <Amaranth> kent: Pretty hard to get a license for everyone in the world to use and freely distribute something that usually gets billed per user.
[02:51] <HiddenWolf> Fluendo is likely to change that with gstreamer-nonfree plugins, but that is a legal minefield.
[02:51] <kent> HiddenWolf. I understand. I dont have dvd in my computer so id rather the monny went to development. ;) hihi
[02:51] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: Only with GPL'd frontends and GPL'd plugins.
[02:51] <sorush20> what is fluendo
[02:52] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: Banshee is MIT and most plugins are LGPL'd
[02:52] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, and gpl players linking to gstreamer.
[02:52] <sorush20> gstreamer-nonfree 
[02:52] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: I mentioned that already.
[02:52] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, hm, right.
[02:52] <HiddenWolf> kent, nice, but OT here. :)
[02:52] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, fluendo.com
[02:53] <HiddenWolf> sorush20, this is getting off topic
[02:53] <Amaranth> sucks that the only player you can use with nonfree plugins needs a software stack that may or may not have it's own legal issues
[02:53] <Amaranth> This is why software patents suck. :P
[02:53] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, yeah, well. :)
[02:53] <HiddenWolf> Go EU.
[02:54] <Amaranth> heh
[02:54] <Amaranth> that's less than 1000 miles away...
[02:55] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents
[02:57] <sorush20> HiddenWolf: I though they rejected the patent think
[03:03] <poningru> sorush20 and others: we do have a #ubuntu-offtopic 
[03:04] <Riddell> infinity: please give back kmymoney2
[03:08] <infinity> Riddell: Done.
[03:12] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, if you think patents are bad...
[03:13] <HiddenWolf> An Ohio man who claims that he was humiliated by two other participants in an AOL chatroom has sued the two men for causing emotional distress and the ISP for failing to stop the alleged abuse, according to a report from Law.com.
[03:13] <HiddenWolf> And if you tell me to go to -offtopic, I'll sue. ;)
[03:15] <Amaranth> *boggle*
[03:17] <Riddell> anyone know what icon gnome uses for its zeroconf stuff?
[03:17] <poningru> avahi?
[03:18] <Riddell> hmm, avahi seems to use a funny bear icon, hardly intuitive
[03:18] <mjg59> Riddell: The service discovery applet is a globe with a small question mark on it
[03:19] <Riddell> ah, globes, can't go wrong with them I suppose
[04:00] <zakame> elmo : please sync octave2.1 from Sid, overriding Ubuntu ok, thanks :)
[04:31] <freestone> Mithrandir: U there?
[04:31] <daniels> freestone: it's like 6am in norway
[04:32] <freestone> It's Wednesday there.
[04:32] <freestone> Where is infinity located?
[04:32] <daniels> yeah.  4:32am on wednesday.
[04:33] <freestone> infinity: U there??
[04:34] <HiddenWolf> daniels, sorry to ask, had a debate about it earlier, what is the roadmap for X and acceleration, (xgl, exa etc) Is any of it likely to become mainstream in a reasonable time?
[04:35] <infinity> freestone: Here.
[04:35] <freestone> Anyone - Yesterday Mithrandir said he'd get me an updated base system with cd boot fix, but he didn't email me.
[04:35] <freestone> Hi infinity
[04:35] <freestone> infinity: see my continued question about base sytem
[04:35] <infinity> freestone: On which architecture?
[04:36] <freestone> Does anyone know if the base was updated to handle firewire cds isos, and if so, how I can get the updated iso?
[04:36] <freestone> infinity: 386
[04:37] <daniels> HiddenWolf: exa is the short-term, and people are working on fixing its problem snow
[04:37] <freestone> infinity: btw, where are you located?
[04:37] <daniels> xgl is the longer-term handwavy future
[04:38] <HiddenWolf> daniels, shortterm as "within a couple of releases" ?
[04:38] <daniels> HiddenWolf: short-term as in touch and go for dapper but definitely dapper+1
[04:39] <daniels> it's already a lot better than xaa in most regards (if you haven't tried exa + xcompmgr -a, do so now)
[04:39] <HiddenWolf> damn
[04:39] <HiddenWolf> I'm mildly impressed now.
[04:39] <mjg59> daniels: Can we build stuff with EXA support for Dapper, even if it's not enabled by default?
[04:39] <daniels> mjg59: we already are
[04:40] <HiddenWolf> Considering the acceleration - eyecandy chicken-egg problem...
[04:40] <daniels> mjg59: i'll be patching i810 and probably nv before I leave, and sis/radeon is already there.  but no guarantees on future maintenance obviously.
[04:40] <mjg59> daniels: Excellent
[04:40] <mjg59> daniels: Is the i810 stuff in a sensible state now?
[04:40] <daniels> semi
[04:40] <infinity> freestone: a) I'm in Australia, b) I have no idea if Mithrandir made firewire work yet.
[04:40] <daniels> hopefully anholt will beat it into better shape
[04:41] <mjg59> Is he going to give us mode-setting code?
[04:43] <freestone> infinity: thanks
[04:44] <freestone> daniels: Hi - just for completeness, where are you located?
[04:44] <daniels> freestone: i have nothing to do with that sort of stuff ...
[04:45] <freestone> infinity: can  you do what is necessary to make ieee1394 firewire cd work on the base system?  If no, do you know if anyone on this channel can?
[04:46] <freestone> daniels: what "sort of stuff"?
[04:47] <daniels> freestone: live cd, base system, install cd, kernel, etc
[04:47] <HiddenWolf> daniels, the deb is still called kdrive? or is packages.u.c out of date?
[04:48] <freestone> daniels: Er, ok, thanks, nice to know.  But, where are ou located?
[04:48] <daniels> freestone: .au
[04:49] <daniels> HiddenWolf: the deb of what?
[04:49] <daniels> HiddenWolf: there's xserver-xorg-* for xorg (some with exa), xserver-xglx for an out of date xgl (but that'll change), and xserver-xephyr for xephyr
[04:49] <daniels> i'll hopefully be producing kdrive packages in a week or so
[04:49] <freestone> daniels: thx.  &, now, for the other completeness, what stuff is your specialty?
[04:49] <daniels> xorg
[04:50] <HiddenWolf> daniels, ok. thanks, i'll take no more time, rock on. 
[04:50] <freestone> thx
[04:50] <infinity> freestone: The casper changelog doesn't look like Mithrandir has tackled firewire in livecds yet.  He'll get to it, I'm sure.
[04:52] <freestone> infinity: thx
[04:53] <freestone> infinity: btw, is the casper changelog something I can access, if so where & how?
[04:57] <infinity> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/c/casper/
[05:14] <freestone> infinity: thx
[06:23] <fabbione> morning
[08:56] <mdke> infinity, nudge nudge wink wink
[09:30] <jdub> yay, my quebecistani craptop can halt now! (fglrx unfucked.)
[09:31] <infinity> No radeon love for the Quebecois?
[09:32] <Burgundavia> seb128, with rb doing cd burning, are we going to drop serpentine?
[09:33] <jdub> Burgundavia: it's a pretty unclear UI; i wouldn't back it.
[09:33] <seb128> Burgundavia: same as jdub
[09:33] <seb128> hey jdub :)
[09:33] <jdub> yo seb128 
[09:33] <Burgundavia> jdub, seb128 ok, just wondering
[09:33] <Keybuk> jdub: still dealing with insurance for your old one?
[09:34] <jdub> yeah
[09:34] <Mithrandir> grrrr.
[09:35] <jdub> oddly the synaptics thingy still isn't working though\
[09:35] <Mithrandir> ubuntu-desktop is uninstallable.
[09:35] <infinity> SHOCK AND HORROR.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> infinity: well, it means the live cds won't work, and I would _really_ want them to.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> also, ravel seems to be down.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> or just dog slow
[09:36] <infinity> Yeah.  Looks like the gimpprint->gutenprint thing is hung up on main promotions.
[09:36] <infinity> Anyhow, let me see about getting you some squashed filesystems.
[09:37] <Keybuk> jdub: mine got fixed with the new package that got installed yesterday
[09:37] <Mithrandir> \o/
[09:37] <Mithrandir> infinity: that's just promotions, no inclusion reports needed?
[09:37] <infinity> You find an ftpmaster to help you. :)
[09:37] <Mithrandir> sure, Kamion? :-)
[09:37] <infinity> gimp-print -> gutenprint is a project rename, shouldn't need an inclusion report.
[09:37] <jdub> Keybuk: the updated xserver-xorg-input-synaptics?
[09:37] <jdub> maybe i should re-dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[09:37] <Keybuk> yeah
[09:38] <Keybuk> as apposed to the one that installed the files in the wrong place, and didn't work at all
[09:38] <lucas> hi
[09:38] <lucas> is it possible to inline images on the ubuntu wiki ?
[09:38] <lucas> somebody has an example page ?
[09:39] <jdub> lucas: wiki.ubuntu.com/JeffWaugh
[09:39] <lucas> thanks
[09:40] <lucas> easy ;)
[09:40] <jdub> Keybuk: least i can restart my xserver without bringing down the machine now ;-)
[09:41] <jdub> no love with mousey
[09:41] <infinity> Mithrandir: Do you want anything special on this squash?... Or just a vanilla invocation?
[09:42] <Mithrandir> infinity: squashed vanilla, please.
[09:42] <jdub> ... and still can't use ati driver. 8)
[09:42] <jdub> Mithrandir: tasty.
[09:43] <Treenaks> jdub: have you seen daniels? I was supposed to kick him about xorg/ati last Monday
[09:43] <Mithrandir> Kamion: it seems like foomatic-db-gutenprint and cupsys-driver-gutenprint needs main-promotion., as per infinity's and my conversation above.
[09:43] <jdub> Treenaks: he mentioned that
[09:44] <Treenaks> hmm
[09:46] <infinity> Kamion: Though it's not (yet) stopping desktop installability, I'd love if all the MySQL 5.0 stuff (mysql-{client,server}-5.0, libmysqlclient15{,-dev} could find its way to main too, so I can start rebuilding the world.
[09:46] <Mithrandir> elmo: please sync ttf-dejavu from unstable, overriding ubuntu changes is ok.
[09:51] <infinity> Argh.
[09:51] <infinity> libc6-dev-i386 depends libc6-i686, and I have a libc6-i386.  YAY.
[10:03] <Kamion> Mithrandir: gutenprint stuff promoted
[10:04] <Mithrandir> Kamion: thanks a lot.
[10:04] <Kamion> argh, hope I didn't collide with the unfortunate bit of cron.daily
[10:04] <Kamion> probably not ...
[10:06] <lucas> is there currently a problem with automatic syncing from debian ? clamav, dpkg-awk or sodipodi are packages that should have been synced but aren't
[10:08] <sivang> good morning
[10:12] <Kamion> lucas: all those packages were uploaded after cron.daily on 9 Jan, and thus were not actually part of Debian unstable until after the sync run yesterday; they should be part of today's sync
[10:13] <lucas> oh ok
[10:13] <lucas> thank you
[10:15] <Kamion> infinity: I assume mdz's OKed mysql 5.0?
[10:17] <mvo> is there a good way to recover from a machine that is trashing because of memory pressure? I would like to save the runing processes before forcing a reboot (to analyze what went wrong)
[10:18] <Keybuk> there's a SysRq for that isn't there?
[10:18] <mvo> I think there is, I just can't remember it
[10:18] <Keybuk> SysRq-E is send TERM to all processes
[10:18] <Keybuk> SysRq-S is sync filesystems
[10:19] <Keybuk> SysRq-U is unmount them
[10:19] <Keybuk> SysRq-B is reboot
[10:19] <StevenK> mvo: Ctrl-ScrollLock
[10:20] <StevenK> It's incredibly verbose, though.
[10:21] <mvo> Keybuk: I know S-U-B by heart from the the good old days :) 
[10:21] <mvo> StevenK: thanks, trying that now
[10:21] <Keybuk> mvo: I always think "dive! dive! dive!" when I type that
[10:21] <StevenK> It doesn't seem to work on my Breezy box.
[10:21] <mvo> Keybuk: haha, yeah!
[10:22] <dholbach> hello developers!
[10:22] <dholbach> hey mvo, hey Keybuk
[10:23] <mvo> dholbach: the apt-get.org build script made my machine trashing
[10:23] <dholbach> mvo: what? who? where? what is trashed?
[10:24] <mvo> StevenK: SysRq-T is show tasks, it's on it, but to busy to show them :)
[10:24] <StevenK> Ahh
[10:24] <dholbach> mvo: do you run pbuilders in parallel? :)
[10:24] <mvo> dholbach: 1G mem/1G swap is not enough, the machine is full (memwise) and dosn't do anything but runing over it's swap and trying to get some pages 
[10:24] <mvo> dholbach: no!
[10:24] <mvo> (I hope)
[10:25] <dholbach> mvo: do you know what it is building momentarily?
[10:25] <mvo> works in dapper
[10:25] <StevenK> Well, it isn't. Maybe I've forgotten how to use it.
[10:25] <mvo> dholbach: no, I don't get answers from SysRq-M currently
[10:25] <mvo> it's in a pretty bad state
[10:26] <dholbach> :/
[10:26] <infinity> Kamion: It was okayed before I had it synched, yes.
[10:28] <Kamion> infinity: ok then, promoted
[10:28] <Kamion> not built on ia64 yet?
[10:31] <infinity> Nothing's building on ia64 while we sort out the gcj-4.0 failure (which causes a chain reaction that ends up in debhelper being uninstallable)
[10:34] <sabdfl> seb128: morning
[10:34] <seb128> sabdfl: hi
[10:34] <sabdfl> i'm trying to fix the default browser issue locally
[10:34] <sabdfl> system -> preferences -> preferred applications
[10:34] <Keybuk> . o O { don't you just hate it when the boss joins, and says morning to *just* you?  you know something's gone wrong :p }
[10:34] <seb128> sabdfl: just run the sytem, preference, preferred app capplet
[10:35] <seb128> sabdfl: and pick firefox
[10:35] <sabdfl> 'k willdo, thanks
[10:35] <sabdfl> morning keybuk ;-)
[10:36] <Kamion> infinity: ah, ok
[10:36] <dholbach> :)
[10:36] <dholbach> hi sabdfl
[10:38] <StevenK> Keybuk: This happens at work more than I care to admit ...
[10:40] <Mithrandir> seb128: do you know anything about inotify?  I'm wondering how I can get notification about stuff being mounted.
[10:40] <seb128> Mithrandir: inotify like the linux inotify, or like libnotify?
[10:41] <Mithrandir> like linux inotify.
[10:41] <seb128> nop, not really
[10:41] <Mithrandir> pitti might, when he gets around
[10:41] <seb128> maybe mvo has some clue on it, he did some hack with gam stuff
[10:41] <Mithrandir> mvo: do you?
[10:42] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: you can't through inotify ... I thiiink there's a uevent for that though
[10:42] <Keybuk> though I can't see it
[10:43] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: if I watch a path which doesn't exist (say /media/sda1/foo) and it then gets mounted and something accesses foo, I'll get told?
[10:43] <Keybuk> afaik, no
[10:43] <Keybuk> there's some notification for it, but I'm buggered if I can remember what off hand
[10:43] <Keybuk> fabbione is who you may need to ask
[10:43] <Keybuk> or pitti
[10:45] <mvo> Mithrandir: I use it in update-notifier (using libfam). but for mount events libhal might be the better choice
[10:45] <Mithrandir> mvo: this is going to be code in the initramfs, so I was hoping not to use lots of libraries.
[10:46] <mvo> Mithrandir: I'm sorry then, I haven't used inotify directly (only through a library)
[10:46] <Mithrandir> mvo: ok, thanks anyway
[10:47] <Mithrandir> libfam is 27k, that's decent enough
[10:47] <Mithrandir> hal needs dbus and stuff, so that's out, I think.
[10:48] <Mithrandir> I can just watch /proc/mounts, I guess.
[10:48] <mvo> Mithrandir: sorry, make that libgamin0
[10:48] <StevenK> "What do you mean we now need 128Mb of RAM for the initramfs?!"
[10:49] <dholbach> StevenK is obviously in a good mood.
[10:49] <Mithrandir> mvo: does it need any daemons or stuff running?
[10:50] <StevenK> dholbach: There's a thunderstorm happening - I love storms.
[10:50] <blue-frog> strace totem > file would be something that is needed when filling in a bug?
[10:50] <StevenK> blue-frog: strace -f -o file totem
[10:50] <blue-frog> k ty
[10:51] <StevenK> Oh, and I have ice cream, so doubly happy here.
[10:51] <dholbach> that sounds good :-)
[10:51] <mvo> Mithrandir: probably gamin server, so it might be the best to use inotify directly. there was a lwn article about the interface a while ago IIRC
[10:51] <blue-frog> hum no i belive this command is to open a file, totem crashes when i just launch it
[10:52] <Mithrandir> mvo: I have it mostly working
[10:52] <dholbach> blue-frog: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash is more important then
[10:52] <blue-frog> k
[10:52] <Mithrandir> mvo: the interface is nice enough, it's just that it doesn't give me all I want, like mounting of file systems.
[10:53] <mvo> Mithrandir: I see, the only solution I know off-hand is libhal, sorry
[10:53] <seb128> blue-frog: no
[10:53] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: there appears to be a inotify mount/unmount event
[10:53] <seb128> blue-frog: strace is not useful, gdb "bt" is
[10:54] <seb128> blue-frog: for a crasher I mean
[10:54] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: not in /usr/include/linux/inotify.h?
[10:55] <blue-frog> am reading the page but unfortunately i won't be able to help in that case as i don't see a totem-debug in synaptic
[10:55] <Keybuk> oh, that just has UNMOUNT
[10:55] <dholbach> blue-frog: if you follow the instructions that's enough
[10:55] <adrian15> Hello to all. I've developed a grub disk called Super Grub Disk that can be used to restore grub on mbr automatically. Is there any possibility that you mix it into your live/ installation cds? What do you think about it? http://adrian15.raulete.net/grub/ Any ubuntu boot loader developer round here, perhaps ? Thank you.
[10:55] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: yeah, that works fine
[10:56] <blue-frog> dholbach, yeah ok used command line got the stuff downloading
[10:56] <fabbione> adrian15: it would probably be better to mail to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[10:56] <fabbione> adrian15: so that people can have time to read and look at it
[10:56] <Kamion> adrian15: I was intending to integrate grub-installer with our existing rescue mode instead; all the code's there, it just needs to be glued together
[10:57] <Kamion> in fact I have most of the code here ...
[10:57] <Kamion> that way, everything works the same way
[10:57] <adrian15> Kamion: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows?action=show  Would it be the same as I can found in this wiki with the mounts with bind options and all of this ?
[10:58] <Kamion> adrian15: basically, yes
[10:58] <StevenK> Whee, I love how sick this drive is.
[10:58] <StevenK> Every operation results in at least 5 IDE bus resets.
[10:59] <adrian15> Kamion: User needs to select the partition where ubuntu is installed ?
[10:59] <Kamion> adrian15: yes
[11:00] <adrian15> Kamion: With my tool grub partition is automatically found.
[11:00] <Kamion> (since you might well want to restore grub from another partition, not Ubuntu, if you're multi-booting Linux distributions)
[11:00] <adrian15> Kamion: Yes, you're right.
[11:00] <Mithrandir> infinity: when you've got the squashfs stuff working, I'd love to see a full cd build, so I can test it.
[11:00] <adrian15> Kamion: Do you want to continue conversation in #grub or in a private or is it ok here ?
[11:01] <Kamion> it's OK here, but I might as well say now that I don't want to take new grub-related code that mostly duplicates things we already have
[11:01] <Kamion> just because it's one more thing to maintain in an area that gets fairly complex (especially with strange storage controllers and stuff)
[11:02] <adrian15> Kamion: Well, currenly apart from a bug fix, it's only various lst files
[11:04] <adrian15> Kamion: So you don't need to apply patches or recompile grub... although you will need it in next SGD releases... cause I'm adding variables and CALL command and other things. Currently ubuntu installation cds don't boot grub but isolinux, isn't it ?
[11:04] <Kamion> adrian15: isolinux, yes
[11:05] <Kamion> I know we don't need to recompile grub, but grub-installer sees non-trivial maintenance work that would have to happen in anything that duplicated it too
[11:06] <adrian15> Kamion: I'll tell you one thing. Super Grub Disk does not make use of grub-installer but grub is run from cdrom itself.
[11:06] <infinity> Mithrandir: You'll have a full squash-enabled build before I sleep tonight.
[11:06] <infinity> Mithrandir: Just let me finish sorting my glibc woes. :)
[11:06] <Kamion> adrian15: We used to ship live CDs booting with grub, and they failed to boot on a wide variety of machines. We won't be switching our CDs to boot with grub.
[11:07] <adrian15> Kamion: wasn't it grub + gfxboot... the problem was mainly grub or gfxboot?
[11:07] <adrian15> Well, I have to go... see you in 3 minutes.
[11:12] <adrian15> Kamion: The problem was a grub problem a gfx one... or what ?
[11:13] <Mithrandir> infinity: sure, sort whatever you want. :-)
[11:15] <adrian15> Kamion: grub or gfxboot ?
[11:16] <dexem> mdz: did you decide something with the locales/calendar bug?  (#16216)
[11:16] <Kamion> adrian15: as far as I know it was a grub problem
[11:17] <Kamion> grub on a CD just required that bit more of the BIOS
[11:17] <Kamion> and one question would have sufficed
[11:19] <blue-frog> dholbach, sry to disturb. followed the debugging program crash instructions. up to (gdb) run all goes well (that means the program -totem- is starting and ends up as totem couldn't start). but i have no ouput when doing (gdb) thread apply all bt. Any hint, pls?
[11:19] <adrian15> Kamion: Sorry about the 2 questions. It was the error 25 perhaps ?  And another thing... if with a pc the grub cdrom didn't work... the grub in hard disk did it work?
[11:20] <Kamion> yes, grub worked fine when installed on the hard disk. I don't remember the exact error.
[11:20] <Kamion> (since I never saw it myself)
[11:20] <seb128> blue-frog: could you copy what you get on pastebin.com ?
[11:20] <blue-frog> sure
[11:21] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/restart-req.png
[11:21] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/restart-dialog.png
[11:21] <Keybuk> ^ mvo
[11:21] <Kamion> anyway, isolinux works fine, we have gfxboot integration for it now (still needs a few fixes, but minor), and don't fix what isn't broken
[11:21] <adrian15> Kamion: So... it may be the error 25 which I've fixed.
[11:21] <Kamion> *shrug* isolinux works
[11:22] <adrian15> Kamion: Do you have any options that choose kernel parametres in installation cds or is there only one... and in the live cd ?
[11:22] <Kamion> it's incredibly important that Ubuntu CDs boot; failing that, they should at least fail to boot consistently, not flip-flop between two sets of bugs :-)
[11:22] <Kamion> various places
[11:22] <Kamion> debian-cd, the bootloader installers, base-installer
[11:23] <martinex> hello all
[11:24] <mvo> Keybuk: very nice!
[11:24] <adrian15> Kamion: You're nearly always in this channel? I'll send you a piece of news of the new SGD that let's you choose the options passed to the kernel with menues when it is ready... and that support variables and all that.
[11:24] <Keybuk> now I've just got to figure out how to hook into gnome-session to do the actual restarting thing
[11:24] <martinex> question - is there something like - development changelog - with for example list of changes in packages... since yesterday etc. ? daily changelog or sth?
[11:24] <Keybuk> ungodly hack coming right up! :D
[11:25] <Kamion> adrian15: I'm generally here, yes, but I have to be honest and say I'm really not all that interested unless it comes in the form of patches to the systems we're already using
[11:25] <Kamion> patches to those systems are most welcome
[11:25] <bluefrog-10> dholbach, http://pastebin.com/500530
[11:25] <Kamion> entirely new systems are a very different matter
[11:26] <Kamion> particularly three months before a release that we need to support for five yerars
[11:26] <Kamion> years
[11:26] <adrian15> Kamion: :) Ok. I understand.
[11:26] <Kamion> but best of luck with SGD all the same
[11:27] <dholbach> bluefrog-10: if you type 'bt' after that - do you get a different output?
[11:27] <Kamion> Mithrandir: ubuntu-desktop's installable right now; good time for a live fs rebuild?
[11:27] <bluefrog-10> dholbach, no stack
[11:28] <dholbach> bluefrog-10: i'm not quite sure it crashes then :)
[11:29] <adrian15> Kamion: One more question: I wanted to edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows?action=show in order to say that they can also use SGD if they have only one system installated in their system. Should I? Shouldn't I? I put it in the top of the page... in the bottom.... what do you think of ?
[11:30] <Kamion> adrian15: don't see why not; maybe link to it from the "GRUB Resources" section?
[11:30] <seb128> bluefrog-10: it doesn't crash
[11:30] <seb128> bluefrog-10: is that breezy or dapper?
[11:30] <adrian15> Kamion: If you think so... :(
[11:30] <Kamion> or whatever really, I'm not the wiki police :-)
[11:30] <blue-frog> seb128, dholbach, indeed it's a "totem couldnot startup" window that i receive. weird that you don't have this as well. using dapper daily 09-01-06 updated as of today
[11:30] <Kamion> I'd never seen that page before you mentioned it
[11:31] <seb128> blue-frog: gconftool-2 --type string --set /system/gstreamer/0.10/default/videosink ximagesink
[11:31] <seb128> blue-frog: and try again
[11:32] <blue-frog> seb128 ouot of gdb i assume?
[11:32] <seb128> yep
[11:32] <dholbach> seb128: i was just looking for that key, remembering that you mentioned it in a bug report :)
[11:32] <bluefrog-10> totem launches
[11:32] <seb128> dholbach: nice :)
[11:33] <bluefrog-10> so do i do anything about bug or i just leave it as it is?
[11:33] <seb128> bluefrog-10: seems your videodriver doesn't support "xv", what video driver do you use?
[11:33] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I asked infinity to do one as soon as he has the squashfs stuff in.  Or we could just do one now and one when he's done his stuff
[11:33] <blue-frog> seb128, thought about driver. vesa at the moment as the install didn't setup i810 as it did in breezy
[11:34] <seb128> ok
[11:34] <seb128> blue-frog: if you set it to "autovideosink", does it work?
[11:34] <blue-frog> seb128, yes it does
[11:35] <seb128> so we should probably use autovideosink by default
[11:35] <jamesh> seb128: out of interest, are Launchpad bug notifications getting through to desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com?
[11:35] <dholbach> no more totem bugs! :)
[11:35] <dholbach> jamesh: the list has to be unmoderated, but yes, of some packages they get "through" to the list (rather the moderator)
[11:35] <seb128> jamesh: every time I comment on a desktop bug I get a moderation mail
[11:36] <seb128> if that's the question
[11:36] <dholbach> but they go to 1) the 'gnome' team, 2) desktop-bugs@ and 3) seb128 :)
[11:36] <jamesh> seb128: I can give you the magic incantation to allow the mails through if you want
[11:36] <seb128> would be useful, thanks
[11:36] <dholbach> (at least that's what i observed for some packages)
[11:37] <seb128> but when I comment on a malone bug I should not have to care of who is subscribed to the bug and get moderation mails
[11:37] <seb128> I mean I comment on launchpad
[11:37] <seb128> that part should be launchpad's issue
[11:37] <seb128> the user doesn't care there is a list with moderation plugged somewhere on the launchpad way
[11:38] <Mithrandir> seb128: the list should turn off the "notify sender when posts are held", then
[11:38] <jamesh> seb128: from the mailman list admin interface, choose "Privacy options", then "spam filters"
[11:38] <seb128> Mithrandir: launchpad should not send the mail as coming from me
[11:38] <Mithrandir> seb128: that depends.. see the discussion on warthogs?
[11:38] <seb128> Mithrandir: I did comment on a bug tracker, I didn't mean to send a bug to some list subscribed to it
[11:39] <jamesh> seb128: for "Spam Filter Rule 1", enter "X-Generated-By: Launchpad" as the regexp, and set the action to "accept"
[11:39] <seb128> jamesh: thanks
[11:39] <Mithrandir> seb128: I'm arguing it's a bug in the list setup, not in LP.  You seem to disagree
[11:39] <seb128> yeah
[11:39] <seb128> I argue than as an user I should not have to care about that
[11:39] <seb128> I comment on a bug tracker
[11:40] <seb128> who is subscribed to the bug and what list is misconfigured is not my issue
[11:40] <siretart> is there an ETA for the next flight release?
[11:40] <Mithrandir> siretart: this week or next, I think Kamion said.
[11:40] <seb128> I know what is happening, but how a standard user would react?
[11:42] <siretart> Mithrandir: thanks.. I'm having still heavy trouble with 2.6.15 and hope that a fresh install could fix that..
[11:42] <fabbione> siretart: !
[11:42] <fabbione> siretart: igor is down
[11:42] <fabbione> siretart: any chance to get it back online?
[11:42] <Kamion> seb128: IME as owner@bugs.debian.org, we totally ignore moderation mails
[11:42] <siretart> fabbione: yes, I read your query
[11:42] <fabbione> siretart: a reboot would do. it was my fault
[11:42] <fabbione> siretart: ok thanks
[11:42] <Kamion> do you think launchpad admins are going to be any better after reading thousands of them? :)
[11:42] <siretart> fabbione: we will change the ram with this chance
[11:42] <fabbione> siretart: great
[11:42] <Kamion> although I suppose they could be sent to /dev/null
[11:43] <siretart> fabbione: I don't know when joerg will get to the datacenter next time, but I'm quite sure it will be this week
[11:43] <seb128> I just say it's confusing for an user commenting on a bug
[11:43] <blue-frog> seb128, if i play with gstreamer-properties and hit test on Xwindows(X11/Xshm/XV) I get "failed to construct test pipeline for Xwindows(X11/Xshm/XV. Guess it's coming from the video driver and that I shouldn't bother  you with that, correct?
[11:43] <siretart> fabbione: I will ping you when it's back online
[11:43] <seb128> sending them to some log would be good enough
[11:43] <seb128> blue-frog: you have no xv that's all
[11:43] <fabbione> siretart: if he can't manage this week, please tell him NOT to power it up
[11:44] <fabbione> siretart: because i am going VAC and we don't want a buildd without a babysitter
[11:44] <siretart> fabbione: oh. ok, when is the deadline?
[11:44] <fabbione> siretart: saturday. i will leave sunday very early in the morning
[11:44] <siretart> allright. will do
[11:44] <fabbione> thanks
[11:44] <adrian15> Kamion: Can you reload the page and tell me what do you think?
[11:45] <adrian15> Kamion: Another question. Is there any place where I can find hipotetical fixes that you did to the grub that you were using in the first ages of ubuntu ?
[11:46] <Kamion> adrian15: they should all be in the .diff.gz files in the archive
[11:46] <adrian15> Kamion: url?
[11:46] <Kamion> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/g/grub/
[11:48] <Kamion> should get that into dapper
[11:59] <adrian15> Kamion: I've you've used graphics... is it the current patch for having image support on grub or another one?
[11:59] <Kamion> parse error?
[12:00] <adrian15> Kamion: Are you talking to me ?
[12:00] <Kamion> yes
[12:00] <adrian15> Kamion: I've seen you include Graphics.h which I think it is not included in official grub
[12:01] <adrian15> Kamion: I'm looking at: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/g/grub/grub_0.97-1ubuntu2.diff.gz
[12:01] <Kamion> that patch just comes from Debian
[12:02] <Kamion> we don't modify it in any way
[12:05] <adrian15> Kamion: Ummm.... So it is a debian patch for images... ok... but what about the patches you told me about not booting in many machines... or did you not try to patch it ?
[12:07] <Kamion> no, we didn't try, because *isolinux worked fine* :-)
[12:07] <Kamion> at least, we didn't try as far as I know
[12:07] <Kamion> but we had a perfectly good and well-tested alternative option available
[12:07] <pitti> Hi
[12:13] <siretart> wheee
[12:14] <ogra_ibook> pitti !
[12:14] <siretart> just upgraded to latest udev/linux-2.6.15, now I get a 'ALERT! /dev/hda2 does not exist. Dropping to a shell!'
[12:14] <pitti> ogra_ibook: hey :)
[12:14] <siretart> grmbl
[12:15] <Keybuk> siretart: did you also upgrade module-init-tools and initramfs-tools ?
[12:15] <ogra_ibook> pitti, how far is the "automatic audiosink" stuff ? my changes for ltsp sound enetred dapper yesterday 
[12:15] <siretart> Keybuk: isn't there a hard depends on them, too? 
[12:15] <pitti> ogra_ibook: it's implemented since one or two weeks
[12:15] <Keybuk> should be
[12:15] <Keybuk> but worth checking
[12:15] <ogra_ibook> pitti, i'd like to have a look at the autodetection stuff, where is it hidden ? 
[12:15] <siretart> booting live cd and rechecking
[12:16] <pitti> ogra_ibook: what do you want to change? it's easier to explain that way
[12:16] <pitti> ogra_ibook: in general, each sink plugin registers itself with a priority
[12:16] <pitti> ogra_ibook: and the autosink tries each one in succession with descending priority until the first one succeeds
[12:16] <ogra_ibook> we agreed on a ltspsink that gets probed before the others and points to the esdsink if we detect LTSP_CLIENT is set, remember ? 
[12:17] <Keybuk> siretart: actually, could you boot your ordinary system to the point where it does the ALERT and gives you a shell instead
[12:19] <pitti> ogra_ibook: yes, I remember; does an ltspsink exist already?
[12:20] <pitti> ogra_ibook: it's no problem to change the priorities of the sinks, I can do it easily
[12:20] <pitti> ogra_ibook: oh, wait; we can just decrease the priority of the alsadmixsink if LTSP_CLIENT exists, so that esound is first priority
[12:20] <ogra_ibook> nope, doesnt exist yet, thats why i wanted to have a look 
[12:21] <ogra_ibook> ahuman01, cool !!
[12:21] <ogra_ibook> oops
[12:21] <pitti> ogra_ibook: does it do any other magic on top of esdsink apart from checking the env var?
[12:21] <ogra_ibook> s/ahuman01/ah
[12:21] <ogra_ibook> nope
[12:22] <ogra_ibook> esddsp is set by the loginmanager pointing to the thin client already ... nothing needed on the server side
[12:22] <ogra_ibook> so its only the part that makes sure that esd is really used on the desktop that missing (ltspsink)
[12:23] <ogra_ibook> (or a change in autosink that respects LTSP_CLIENT as you like :) )
[12:23] <pitti> ogra_ibook: ok, so if we change the priorities to esd > alsadmix > alsa if LTSP_CLIENT is set would be enough?
[12:23] <ogra_ibook> yup
[12:23] <ogra_ibook> absolutely :)
[12:23] <pitti> ogra_ibook: (by default, we have alsadmix > esound > alsa
[12:23] <ogra_ibook> yup, i understood 
[12:24] <pitti> ogra_ibook: ok, I'll do that
[12:24] <ogra_ibook> cool !!
[12:24] <siretart> Keybuk: how can I boot into my ordinary system? it won't boot without my /dev/hda2 (root device)
[12:24] <ogra_ibook> thanks a lot :)
[12:24] <pitti> no problem
[12:24] <ogra_ibook> :-D
[12:24] <Keybuk> siretart: boot until it fails, it'll give you a shell, then we can "debug" :)
[12:25] <pitti> infinity: ping
[12:25] <siretart> Keybuk: ah, that was the point I was before. Now I have the live cd started, where I can check the versions of the packages
[12:25] <infinity> pitti: pong
[12:25] <Keybuk> /var/lib/dpkg/status
[12:26] <siretart> module-init-tools Version 3.3.2-1ubuntu2
[12:27] <siretart> initramfs-tools: 0.40ubuntu13
[12:27] <Keybuk> ok
[12:27] <Keybuk> so reboot into the failed state
[12:28] <StevenK> Hrm, at least that's better than what the Debian did.
[12:29] <StevenK> "Waiting x seconds for /sys/block/dev/hda" ad infinitiem.
[12:29] <siretart> Keybuk: ok, I have a shell now
[12:29] <Keybuk> we don't wait for hda, no point
[12:29] <Keybuk> siretart: cat /proc/modules and list me the module names loaded
[12:30] <siretart> ide_generic thermal processor fan fbcon bitlit softcursor capability commoncap vga16fb vgastate cfbimgblt cfbfillrect cfbcopyarea tileblit font
[12:30] <Keybuk> ok...
[12:30] <Keybuk> udevplug -v -Bpci -Iclass=0x01*
[12:30] <Keybuk> what does that say?
[12:31] <siretart> /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.1
[12:31] <Keybuk> cat /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.1/vendor
[12:31] <Keybuk> cat /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.1/device
[12:31] <StevenK> Keybuk: My point was that Ubuntu gives you a shell
[12:31] <Keybuk> cat /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.1/class
[12:32] <Keybuk> StevenK: and if you exit that shell, it tries to carry on assuming you fixed the problem <g>
[12:32] <siretart> Keybuk: does it help you if I say its a Thinkpad R40 with Pentium M and atheros? ;)
[12:32] <Keybuk> siretart: nope
[12:32] <Keybuk> siretart: not unless you mail it me ;)
[12:32] <StevenK> Muahaha
[12:33] <StevenK> siretart: Quick, take a picture and e-mail it to Keybuk.
[12:33] <siretart> vendor is 0x8086
[12:33] <infinity> I like how you've managed to have exactly zero useful block drivers loaded.
[12:33] <ogra_ibook> lol
[12:33] <siretart> device is: 0x24ca
[12:33] <Keybuk> infinity: yes, that is quite special, isn't it <g>
[12:34] <siretart> class is: 0x01018a
[12:34] <siretart> what now?
[12:34] <Keybuk> siretart: I'm guessing that the following produces nada
[12:34] <Keybuk> grep pci:v00008086d000024ca /lib/modules/*/modules.alias
[12:34] <Keybuk> uh, sorry
[12:34] <Keybuk> grep pci:v00008086d000024CA /lib/modules/*/modules.alias
[12:35] <Keybuk> needs to be in caps
[12:35] <Keybuk> (at least the id does)
[12:35] <siretart> it produces 'alias pci:v00008086d000024CAsv*sd*bc*sc*i* piix'
[12:35] <Keybuk> ok....
[12:36] <Keybuk> uh, this may seem silly, but ... "uname -a" ? :)
[12:36] <ogra_ibook> yippie ! edubuntu-desktop is installable again 
[12:36] <siretart> Linux (none) 2.6.15-11-686 #1 SMP PREEMPT ....
[12:36] <siretart> the rest too?
[12:36] <dexem> dholbach: I've just sent the CAMEL_DEBUG log for the evolution/TLS bug.  ask me whatever you need here :)
[12:36] <Keybuk> nope that's fine
[12:36] <Keybuk> hmmmmmm
[12:37] <Keybuk> can you check /proc/modules and confirm for definite that "piix" isn't loaded?
[12:37] <siretart> triple checked, piix is NOT loaded
[12:37] <infinity> piix is definitely copied in.
[12:37] <dholbach> dexem: did you see anything interesting in there?
[12:37] <infinity> siretart: I assume you can modprobe piix and it works?
[12:37] <siretart> infinity: loading by hand works
[12:37] <dexem> dholbach: CamelException.setv(0x8c74cd0, 2, 'Failed to connect to POP server pop.warp.es in secure mode: SSL negotiations failed')
[12:37] <siretart> but still no /dev/hda2
[12:38] <Keybuk> infinity: did you ever get around to adding that DEBUG mode to initramfs
[12:38] <Keybuk> siretart: ok, so you've loaded piix and you have no /dev/hda2 ?
[12:38] <infinity> Keybuk: No, looks like I should do that tomorrow, eh?
[12:38] <siretart> Keybuk: yes
[12:38] <Keybuk> yes you have no hda2?
[12:38] <dholbach> dexem: maybe we can ask the upstream guys, what's wrong
[12:39] <siretart> Keybuk: /dev/hda2 is my root file system, but I still have no device node /dev/hda2 in that shell
[12:39] <siretart> there is also no /dev/hda
[12:39] <infinity> Keybuk: Kernel bug?... piix broke recently, perhaps?
[12:39] <Kinnison> siretart: has it turned up in /proc/partitions?
[12:39] <siretart> Kinnison: /proc/partition is empty
[12:39] <siretart> just the header 'major minor #blocks name'
[12:39] <Keybuk> infinity: that's all I can think
[12:40] <infinity> siretart: Is this an upgrade from breezy, or a dapper->dapper upgrade?
[12:40] <Keybuk> "Dear Mr Kernel, my computer has an IDE controller, could you please SEE THE FUCKING THING!" :p
[12:40] <Kinnison> Keybuk: and we don't need the ide-<foo> module in order to get piix to probe subsequently?
[12:40] <Keybuk> anyway, this is so not a udev bug <g
[12:40] <Keybuk> Kinnison: no, I fixed that
[12:40] <Kinnison> Keybuk: yay
[12:40] <Keybuk> and I don't think BenC re-broke it
[12:40] <siretart> infinity: this is an upgrade from a breezy/dapper mixed system to 2.6.15. I wanted to recheck this bug: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21529
[12:40] <infinity> Although, if ide-generic is winning the evil race of doom...
[12:41] <Keybuk> Kinnison: either way, ide-generic would steal the devices
[12:41] <Keybuk> because it's been loaded
[12:41] <Keybuk> so we have a machine which
[12:41] <Keybuk> a) piix isn't automatically loaded
[12:41] <Keybuk> b) devices don't show up even when piix is manually loaded
[12:41] <Keybuk> c) ide-generic is loaded through the udev "heeeelllp" fallout
[12:41] <Keybuk> d) devices don't even show up then
[12:41] <infinity> siretart: After you modprobed it, does piix show up in /proc/modules, or no?
[12:41] <Keybuk> I'm going for "iz kernel bug"
[12:42] <siretart> infinity: yes, at the first line
[12:42] <infinity> siretart: And can you boot without "quiet" or "splash" on the command line, and try to see if anything interesting appears to be happening in the kernel output?
[12:42] <Keybuk> siretart: silly question ... ps ax ... is udevd running?
[12:42] <siretart> Keybuk: running at pid 931 with option '--daemon'
[12:42] <Keybuk> just checking
[12:42] <dexem> dholbach: ok, thanks :)
[12:43] <Keybuk> reboot without quiet or splash on the command line
[12:43] <Keybuk> and with break=premount
[12:43] <siretart> I also have a 'nolapic' option, shall I remove that too?
[12:43] <Keybuk> that'll drop you to a shell a bit before things
[12:43] <Keybuk> well....
[12:43] <StevenK> Your local APIC is broken?
[12:43] <siretart> I needed it for suspend/usb terror in 2.6.12
[12:43] <Keybuk> either remove nolapic and try booting normally
[12:43] <Keybuk> or leave it in and do our suggestion
[12:44] <Keybuk> in fact, yes, remove nolapic and boot normally (without quiet/splash though)
[12:44] <siretart> ok, I now removed all that junk
[12:45] <siretart> piix still not loaded automatically
[12:45] <Keybuk> ok
[12:45] <Keybuk> kill udevd
[12:46] <siretart> when loading via modprobe I get a funny msg
[12:46] <Keybuk> then start it with ... UDEV_LOG=info udevd --daemon
[12:46] <Keybuk> meh, don't modprobe just yet
[12:46] <Keybuk> reboot again :p
[12:46] <siretart> ICH4: port 0x01f0 already claimed by ide0
[12:46] <siretart> ICH4: port 0x0170 already claimed by ide1
[12:46] <siretart> ICH4: neither IDE port enabled (BIOS)
[12:46] <infinity> Bing.  ide-generic needs to be blacklisted.
[12:46] <Keybuk> infinity: no, ide-generic needs to be not loaded in the first place
[12:46] <siretart> ok, will reboot again, just a sek
[12:46] <Keybuk> siretart: reboot like this
[12:47] <Keybuk> siretart: blah blah break=premount
[12:47] <infinity> Keybuk: well, that too.  But it's loaded rather quickly in some cases.
[12:47] <Keybuk> with no nolapic, quiet or splash
[12:47] <Keybuk> infinity: shouldn't be
[12:47] <Keybuk> infinity: if ide-generic ever gets loaded alongside a real ide driver, it's a bug
[12:47] <siretart> Keybuk: done. what now?
[12:47] <Keybuk> siretart: so you're at a shell?
[12:47] <siretart> yes
[12:48] <Keybuk> ok run the following:
[12:48] <Keybuk> UDEV_LOG=info udevd --daemon
[12:48] <Keybuk> that should print a few messages on screen?
[12:48] <infinity> Keybuk: The way I read the script, it can easily race and win, if the driver destined for providing the root device is a little too slow to initialise.
[12:48] <siretart> initialize max_childs to 64
[12:48] <siretart> initialize max_childs_running to 16
[12:48] <pitti> Keybuk: you broke cups :) (nm, I'll fix it)
[12:48] <Keybuk> infinity: ide devices initialise before the modprobe returns ... I fixed that in the kernel
[12:48] <infinity> Keybuk: Hrm.  Kay..
[12:48] <Keybuk> siretart: ok
[12:49] <Keybuk> now run: udevplug -Bpci -Iclass=0x01*
[12:49] <Keybuk> and see what happens
[12:49] <Keybuk> describe to the best of your ability everything that gets dumped to the screen
[12:50] <siretart> 4 lines:
[12:50] <siretart> udev_event_run: seq 751 forced, pid [846] , 'add' 'pci' 0 seconds old
[12:50] <siretart> wait_for_sysfs: file appeared after 0 loops
[12:50] <Keybuk> infinity: more particularly, piix would show up then <g>
[12:50] <siretart> udev_event_run: seq 751 finished
[12:50] <infinity> Keybuk: One would expect, yeah.
[12:51] <siretart> udev_done: seq 751, pid [846]  exit with 0, 0 seconds old
[12:51] <siretart> fini
[12:51] <Keybuk> siretart: ooookkkk
[12:51] <Keybuk> and /proc/modules says no piix loaded?
[12:51] <siretart> Keybuk: neither piix nor ide-generic
[12:51] <Keybuk> right
[12:51] <Keybuk> ls /etc/udev/rules.d
[12:52] <siretart> 00-init.rules  20-names.rules
[12:52] <Keybuk> that's it ?!
[12:52] <siretart> jupp
[12:52] <Keybuk> !!
[12:52] <Keybuk> infinity: >?!>?!")($()!*IO_IJKPQEFJPWSFW
[12:52] <siretart> ??
[12:52] <Keybuk> WHERE'S THE REST OF THE BLOODY INITRAMFS?! :p
[12:52] <infinity> DON'T BLAME ME.
[12:53] <Keybuk> hmm, Mithrandir said something the other day that's kinda suspicious too
[12:53] <Keybuk> siretart: could you ls /lib/udev for me
[12:53] <infinity> siretart: Can you reboot into a backup kernels and run "update-initramfs -u -k 2.6.15-11-686"?
[12:53] <Keybuk> infinity: no, don't just yet
[12:53] <infinity> Keybuk: The thing about 60whatever not working?
[12:54] <Keybuk> infinity: exactly
[12:54] <siretart> ls /lib/udev
[12:54] <StevenK> Apparently, taking over an initramfs has a whole new meaning to infinity. :-P
[12:54] <siretart> ls: /lib/udev: no such file or directory
[12:54] <Keybuk> ok
[12:55] <Keybuk> now can you do what infinity said :)
[12:55] <siretart> lets try
[12:55] <Kamion> god, why does bugzilla not link package names on bug lists to the list of bugs against that package
[12:55] <Keybuk> infinity: it's almost as if the udev hook aborted half way through
[12:55] <Kamion> it would be such an easy thing to do and helps usability so much
[12:55] <Keybuk> infinity: you do check the return value from hooks, right? :p
[12:55] <Kinnison> Kamion: hold onto that thought for malone
[12:55] <mdz> dexem: yes, see #ubuntu-devel logs
[12:55] <Kamion> ah well, at least malone does it
[12:56] <Kinnison> Kamion: oh cool
[12:56] <mdz> Kamion: yes, mysql 5.0 has my approval
[12:56] <Keybuk> mdz: shouldn't you be in bed? :p
[12:56] <Kamion> good
[12:56] <mdz> poningru_sleep: you had a question about blogging?
[12:57] <siretart> infinity: done. no output
[12:57] <mdz> Keybuk: "should" is easy to agree with
[12:58] <siretart> infinity: reboot/retry now?
[12:58] <infinity> Keybuk: We might not, actually.  I'll have to write a big blinking note to check that tomorrow.  That said, how on earth could it be aborting?... Oh, you're running it 'set -e', and if one of those files you copy doesn't exist...
[12:58] <infinity> Keybuk: Hrm. :)
[12:58] <Keybuk> infinity: exactly
[12:58] <infinity> Yeah, I'll have to poke that first thing in the morning.
[12:58] <daniels> Kamion: because being obnoxious ftw.  word up to the component selector.
[12:58] <infinity> Want to write me a nasty, yes encouraging email?
[12:59] <infinity> s/yes/yet/
[12:59] <Keybuk> to whom?
[12:59] <siretart> infinity: reboot/retry now?
[12:59] <infinity> siretart: Might not make a difference at all.
[12:59] <Keybuk> siretart: yes, please get into a real filesystem so I can check something :)
[12:59] <infinity> siretart: mkinitramfs -k -o /dev/null 2.6.15-11-686
[01:00] <siretart> woah. 2.6.15 is booting now
[01:00] <infinity> siretart: And check the directory in /tmp that it mentions.  See if those files Keybuk's looking for are there.
[01:00] <siretart> just with regenerated initrd
[01:00] <infinity> Oh.  Crap.
[01:00] <infinity> That's good.  But not good.
[01:00] <siretart> wheeee! and gdm finally appears!
[01:00] <infinity> Keybuk: Nasty email.  In my INBOX.  Too tired to make coherent notes.  Reminding me is on your shoulders. :)
[01:01] <siretart> thank you gods! :)
[01:01] <Keybuk> ok, why did that happen?
[01:01] <Keybuk> initramfs regenerated by initramfs-tools upgrade, but not udev?
[01:01] <infinity> I'm not positive I want to know.
[01:01] <Keybuk> which makes no sense, because some bits of udev are there
[01:01] <Keybuk> hmm, oh
[01:01] <Keybuk> ahhh
[01:01] <infinity> Shouldn't matter, cause every postinst should do it over and over and over again, until the last one gets a "complete" initramfs.
[01:02] <Keybuk> how about this then
[01:02] <Keybuk> initramfs-tools regenerates the initramfs
[01:02] <infinity> (inefficient, icky, I want dpkg hooks, but it should work...)
[01:02] <Keybuk> at this time the old udev conffiles are there, but with the new udev hooks
[01:02] <Keybuk> so the udev hook bails because it can't find the old conffile
[01:02] <Keybuk> udev regenerates the initramfs
[01:02] <Keybuk> but for some reason this refuses to do so
[01:03] <daniels> ARGH
[01:03] <daniels> ssh Dssh DESPERATELY needs better back off on packet loss semantics
[01:03] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: anyway, to get /dev/disk/by-* ... try regenerating your initramfs ;P
[01:03] <siretart> the framebuffer for usplash is probken on my machine, but thats another but
[01:03] <StevenK> daniels: The kernel deals with retransmission, not userland processes.
[01:04] <infinity> Keybuk: It shouldn't refuse, since the last initramfs-tools upload set us to "implicit takeover mode", so any update-initramfs call should plough through.
[01:04] <sladen> well you want it to be *fast* dontchya?
[01:04] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I've worked around it already.
[01:04] <sladen> oops, scroll-locked scrollback
[01:04] <Keybuk> kooky
[01:04] <Keybuk> either way, it's not my bug :p
[01:05] <Keybuk> "udev doesn't work if most of it is missing"
[01:05] <StevenK> Heh
[01:06] <Keybuk> so what happened was
[01:06] <Keybuk> 1) no modprobe piix rule
[01:06] <Keybuk> 2) so ide-generic was loaded
[01:06] <Keybuk> 3) no modprobe ide-disk rule
[01:06] <Keybuk> 4) so device creation wasn't kicked
[01:07] <Keybuk> not to mention no ide_media helper to figure out it needed to load ide-disk
[01:07] <dexem> mdz: Ok, thanks :D
[01:08] <daniels> StevenK: ssh has its own exponential backoff semantics.  and they're CRAP.
[01:09] <StevenK> I'd personally trust the kernel. It seems the OpenSSH guys don't. :-)
[01:10] <StevenK> (When one of them is that loving-life guy Theo, what the hell do you expect?)
[01:13] <crimsun> elmo: please sync sndobj, sp-gxmlcpp, seyon, and osdclock from Sid, overriding Ubuntu changes. Thanks!
[01:14] <ulaas> anyone with info on vpnc
[01:19] <pitti> Kamion: could you please approve the recent pmount upload to breezy-updates? mdz ack'ed it
[01:24] <pitti> elmo: please sync pmount, and backport postgresql-{common,8.0,8.1}
[01:26] <infinity> EURKEKA!
[01:27] <infinity> I wonder if uploading glibc is going to make me a co-maintainer.
[01:27] <infinity> God, I hope not.
[01:27] <pitti> infinity: you know, seb128 already claimed packages starting with 'g', so you are too late
[01:28] <infinity> Phew.
[01:29] <Kamion> pitti: done
[01:29] <StevenK> So I know why it's 'linux-image' ... so the Kubuntu's guy didn't get their hands on the kernel. :-)
[01:29] <pitti> Kamion: merci
[01:30] <pitti> Kamion: btw, I'd like to backport the recent postgresql data loss bugfix to breezy-updates, is that fine for you?
[01:30] <Kamion> pitti: um, I guess, but I consider that mdz's decision
[01:30] <pitti> ok, I'll ask him
[01:33] <sladen> vuntz_: I've wasted more hours on that problem but still can't pinpoint it.  best thing is to set a break on 'submenu_to_display' and start from the backtrace;  it's 47 frames long and further up is the _show() that caused the menu to be displayed
[01:34] <pitti> elmo: please remove mozilla-firefox-locale-{ca,el,eu,it,ja,ko,nb,uk} from dapper; can you also add it to the blacklist, so that they won't ever bother us again?
[01:37] <pitti> elmo: (in particluar, we do not want any package but -all)
[01:40] <vuntz_> sladen: does it work better with the patch in http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=314854 ?
[01:40] <vuntz_> sladen: maybe it's just a problem in the way gnome-menus uses fam/gamin
[01:45] <Treenaks> famine?
[01:56] <sladen> vuntz_: something is registering with gamin everytime the menu is show.  There might be something do with show()s for the submenu going to the parent object.  
[01:57] <Simira> hey, who can I blame for XChat-Gnome?
[01:58] <ogra_ibook> Simira, seb128 changed the seeds, mdz wanted it in ...
[01:59] <Simira> hmmm
[01:59] <Simira> grmf
[02:00] <ogra_ibook> Simira, just make your wannabe husband teach you the wonderful world of irissi ;)
[02:00] <Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: she knows how to use irssi quite well
[02:00] <ogra_ibook> heh ... so why do you complan then Simira ? :)
[02:01] <Simira> ogra: I don't like irrsi. I'm not sure whether I like Xchat-Gnome either. I have to adjust!
[02:01] <Simira> ah, seb! Just the guy I needed
[02:02] <Treenaks> Simira: you need gaim's IRC plugin :P
[02:02] <Simira> seb128: you would save me a lot of irritation by telling me how to get the user lists of channels back on my right hand side instead of a button.
[02:02] <Simira> Treenaks: no f...... way!
[02:03] <ogra_ibook> Simira, i dont like it either ... but you have the choice to stay with Xchat :)
[02:03] <martinex> ogra_ibook, hello
[02:03] <Simira> ogra_ibook: it wouldn't install. maybe some wrong spelling there
[02:03] <martinex> ogra_ibook, I'm on windows now - unfortunately...
[02:04] <martinex> ogra_ibook, this hint about modprobe and then ifup eth0 worked and I had an access to internet
[02:05] <martinex> ogra_ibook, unfortunately there is propably a lot of things that are broken because gdm didn't work, gnome-session too... in fact console only
[02:05] <mdke> infinity, nudge #2
[02:05] <martinex> Kamion, hello - ogra said that you could know something about problems with udev
[02:06] <ogra_ibook> martinex, nope i didnt
[02:06] <ogra_ibook> martinex, i said Keybuk
[02:06] <martinex> aaaah sorry :)
[02:06] <martinex> Keybuk, ping
[02:06] <ogra_ibook> martinex, but the problem with the NIC is known ...
[02:06] <daniels> Treenaks: btw, I have the tool for you.  i'll email you with instructions some time when it's not 12am.
[02:07] <martinex> ogra_ibook, hmm so then why ubuntu-desktop doesn't want to work?
[02:07] <martinex> ogra_ibook, could udev be a reason of this issue too?
[02:07] <Treenaks> daniels: OK, great
[02:08] <Kamion> right, with any luck that's all the big outstanding install CD issues from flight-2 out of the way
[02:09] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, cool, the -desktop packages are installable as well :) lets do a flight3 ;)
[02:09] <Kamion> assuming that my choose-mirror upload works, I'll start working on Flight CD 3 soon
[02:09] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: yep, that was the general idea
[02:09] <Kamion> need to push through a d-i rebuild before that though
[02:09] <ogra_ibook> yay!
[02:15] <seb128> Simira: there is no way to move the list
[02:15] <seb128> Simira: you can install chat
[02:15] <seb128> xchat
[02:33] <pitti> mdz: can you please take a look at https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22221 (postgresql data loss bug fix for breezy-security) and approve/deny? TIA
[02:35] <jsgotangco> flight 3 weee
[02:36] <tseng> jsgotangco: yay
[02:38] <Kamion> ok, you guys are scary
[02:39] <jsgotangco> i've been avoiding the daily lately....
[02:39] <tseng> Kamion: are you still up for working on mono/ppc?
[02:39] <tseng> Kamion: someone passed me some more notes over irc regarding your testing
[02:41] <tseng> Kamion: (other work permitting of course)
[02:45] <ogra> tseng, i thought that was ppc64 specific 
[02:45] <tseng> ogra: hm it seems to be smp specific atm, but regardless it is blocking progress
[02:46] <tseng> ogra: colin helped us out by getting a backtrace on a similar system in the DC
[02:46] <Kamion> tseng: did you see the backtraces I put in the upstream bug report?
[02:46] <Kamion> ok, yes, you probably did
[02:46] <tseng> Kamion: yes.
[02:46] <Kamion> I'm up for working on it in the background if given directions on what to do, but I'm kind of stuck on figuring out any more by myself
[02:47] <Kamion> I don't know mono well enough to diagnose smp-related bugs in it by myself
[02:47] <tseng> ok, ill post the request on the bug
[02:47] <tseng> if i can find it again
[02:48] <tseng> geoff should have put them there himself
[02:48] <Kamion> http://bugzilla.ximian.com/show_bug.cgi?id=77028
[02:49] <Kamion> my comment's the last one there
[02:49] <tseng> ya adding from irc
[03:02] <Kamion> tseng: christ that's a lot of output
[03:03] <tseng> Kamion: yeah, just as bad as mono --trace
[03:03] <ogra> tseng, didnt upstream say they'd work on it as well ?
[03:03] <ogra> no progress there ? 
[03:04] <zakame> evening devs :)
[03:04] <tseng> ogra: geoff said he would work on trying to source an smp ppc
[03:04] <ogra> yes, thats what i remembered
[03:04] <tseng> ogra: but he is a volunteer same as me
[03:04] <ogra> oh, k
[03:04] <tseng> i havent heard a peep from novell, yet
[03:04] <tseng> besides miguel saying "osx wfm"
[03:04] <ogra> heh
[03:05] <ogra> who cares for osx
[03:06] <martinex> apple
[03:06] <ogra> pfft
[03:06] <tseng> ogra: miguel has different priorities than most of us.
[03:08] <martinex> ogra, do you know when udev issue is going to be fixed?
[03:08] <ogra> nope
[03:08] <ogra> but surely before relese ;)
[03:08] <ogra> *release
[03:10] <martinex> ehhh I'll try to install breezy and'll wait for some changes on ubuntu-devel list...
[03:11] <martinex> but really have no idea why gnome on dapper doesn't want to work now
[03:12] <tseng> gnome is a pretty wide target, what specifically doesnt work?
[03:12] <martinex> tseng, nothing...
[03:12] <ogra> you probably used dist-upgrade instead of upgrade and essential pieces are out of snyc or something
[03:12] <martinex> tseng, just hangs on ugly brown screen ;)
[03:13] <tseng> ogra: i always use dist-upgrade
[03:13] <Kamion> not that dist-upgrade is our recommended upgrade method or anything :P
[03:13] <ogra> i never use it in development releases
[03:13] <tseng> (and fix anything that blows up)
[03:14] <ogra> upgrade and cherrypick the known good pieces ...
[03:14] <Kamion> dist-upgrade is exactly what you need to use while tracking development releases, except that you need to be careful to keep an eye on what's going to be removed
[03:14] <martinex> ogra, I'm not sure if dist-upgrade could be reason.. but can try to update ... 
[03:14] <Kamion> unless you feel like installing every single package that gets rearranged by hand
[03:14] <martinex> and just 'upgrade'
[03:15] <ogra> Kamion, if you upgrade often thats mostly not much .. and if a transition is going on its mostly only one package i pull in manually, the rest gets done with the next upgrade 
[03:15] <martinex> ok need to reboot to get what's going on
[03:16] <ogra> indeed, if i want to test upgradeability and not only work on my stuff i do a dist-upgrade occasionally
[03:21] <\sh> pitti: ping
[03:21] <pitti> \sh: pong
[03:21] <\sh> pitti: I don't need to call autoreconf or stuff for the breezy wine sec update..it will generated from configure, it's an .in file, and not Makefile.am :)
[03:21] <\sh> oh a be is missing...uploading now :)
[03:22] <ogra> a be ? 
[03:22] <ogra> a belgian ? 
[03:22] <\sh> yes...looks like my brain is faster then my fingers
[03:22] <pitti> \sh: oh, I see; so .am doesn't need to be patched? (not that we would in a security update, but in general it shouldn't be modified manually)
[03:23] <\sh> pitti: there is no .am :) which is nice :)
[03:23] <Kamion> tseng: ok, done
[03:23] <pitti> \sh: aah, I see :)
[03:23] <\sh> pitti: and the hoary I will change to the 0.1 numbering thx for mentioning it :)
[03:26] <\sh> pitti: both sec-updates uploaded
[03:26] <pitti> thanks
[03:26] <pitti> \sh: so we're still faster than Microsoft? or did they release the patch last Thursday?
[03:27] <\sh> pitti: hmmm...well..they released one patch...but this patch breaks everything what worked with wmf...because some people think that this issue was planned :) 
[03:28] <\sh> ok...they release the patch on thursday
[03:28] <\sh> released even
[03:29] <zakame> wb slomo :)
[03:29] <slomo> hi zakame 
[03:29] <\sh> pitti: but this is much nicer: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/68157
[03:31] <pitti> lol
[03:31] <\sh> and ms has regained the FAT patent...should this mean that we have to remove FAT support from the kernel?
[03:34] <slomo> i guess no... i bet it's not the only patented stuff in the kernel let alone in main
[03:37] <\sh> slomo: well, we see what MS is doing in the future :)
[03:39] <tepsipakki> let's just stall like they've done with removing media player ;)
[03:40] <dilinger> we can remove FAT from the kernel and claim that our kernels are 20% smaller and thinner than our leading competitors
[03:40] <\sh> dilinger: oh well....what about my usb mp3 stick then...
[03:41] <zakame> lol
[03:41] <ogra> format it ext2 :)
[03:42] <ivoks> \sh: then all mp3 players should abandone fat, cause of the patent :)
[03:42] <ivoks> or pay to MS
[03:42] <trappist> yeah when you're selling something you can just license it
[03:43] <\sh> ivoks: they pay already I think, 0,25 cent
[03:43] <ivoks> doh...
[03:43] <\sh> US cent that is
[03:43] <\sh> max. sum for one manufacture: 250.000 US $
[03:43] <\sh> to pay :)
[03:43] <ivoks> i hate patents...
[03:44] <trappist> me too, and I'll continue to hate patents until I invent something
[03:44] <ivoks> :)
[03:44] <trappist> but software patents are the suck
[03:47] <\sh> and right now, I'm want to be in the US :) This "The Violence against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act 2005" is just fun
[03:48] <ivoks> uh, uh... hard to install mysql5 over mysql4 :/
[03:48] <wasabi> flash should be formatted jffs anyways
[03:48] <wasabi> way more efficient.
[03:48] <fabbione> Riddell: FYI: kdebase is still FTBFS.
[03:48] <Riddell> fabbione: yeah, fixing. just me being silly I think
[03:48] <fabbione> ok
[03:49] <\sh> Riddell: that can't be...
[03:50] <tseng> Kamion: thanks!
[03:52] <Riddell> actually I don't think any KDE stuff will compile until the kde avahi library gets past NEW
[03:52] <seb128> elmo, Kamion: I've uploaded pygobject, pygtk has been splitted to pygobject/pygtk ... if you could promote it when you accept it that would be nice
[03:54] <\sh> if someone could elaborate slowly (because I'm really old now with 35 as of today) what the hell is avahi or zeroconf...I don't understand this hype
[03:57] <ivoks> \sh: mDNS
[03:57] <HiddenWolf> \sh, congratulations on  your birthday
[03:57] <ivoks> \sh: aka Bonjour
[03:58] <hno73> I want to file a bug on the gnome file selection dialog - should I file that under gnome-common? 
[03:59] <hno73> When I try to open a local file it insists on connecting various servers I have bookmarked, which cannot be right
[04:01] <\sh> ivoks: what does it do...I just know, that it should automagically determine services
[04:01] <\sh> ivoks: on hosts in the network 
[04:01] <ivoks> \sh: if you ask me, i would say it's bloat
[04:01] <ivoks> \sh: but i find KDE and Gnome bloat, so... I'm not a merit
[04:02] <ivoks> \sh: purpose is to "brodcast" what services you have
[04:02] <ivoks> \sh: for example, avahi can brodcast that you have CUPS (wich is kind of silly, cause CUPS does that too)
[04:03] <Robot101> \sh: it allows broadcast queries/responses to find a) machines and b) services (web, music, printers, whatever) on your local network
[04:03] <Robot101> \sh: zeroconf is the idea of using this with random link-local (169.254) addresses, so that you don't need to fiddle with IPs to eg share a file or a printer with someone
[04:04] <Treenaks> Robot101: but it also just uses 'normal' IPs if they happen to be available (because of proper DHCP etc.)
[04:04] <slomo> or for multiplayer games to find an open game you could join
[04:04] <Robot101> \sh: rendezvous and bonjour are apple's old and new names for this technology, and they use it as the basis for file, printer, music and chat services on OS X
[04:04] <ivoks> basicly, osx has it, so we should too :))
[04:05] <Robot101> mDNS is a stupidly licensed implementation of this, avahi is a sensibly-licensed implementation that uses dbus to expose your system's zeroconf stack to applications
[04:05] <Robot101> (you need a single responder per system, for reasons of owning the socket, caching, etc, so avahi allows you to register local services, query available services on the network, etc, using the system bus)
[04:06] <slomo> and avahi has a much nicer API than howl/libdns_sd ;)
[04:06] <Robot101> also you can plug it in to nss, so you can do "host foo.local" and find a box
[04:06] <\sh> Robot101: is it "local net" as in "the same network as your requested IP via dhcp, ppp, pppoe etc. with the same netmask" or "local-net" as in "only the ip-network connected to available hardware devices"
[04:07] <Robot101> \sh: its aimed at local networks, so I think it's ethernet broadcast based, rather than IP broadcasts, but I might be wrong
[04:07] <Robot101> it might do both of course
[04:07] <ivoks> it's PITA for admins :)
[04:07] <ivoks> cause it crates disturbance in organised networks :)
[04:07] <Robot101> its supposed to alleviate the need :)
[04:08] <slomo> it uses IP broadcasts... it's definitely not ethernet based and works fine over vpn for example too ;)
[04:09] <\sh> Robot101: ok..so I need to find a way to disable that easily
[04:09] <\sh> slomo: argl...you scared me now...
[04:09] <ivoks> \sh: deinstall it :)
[04:09] <\sh> slomo: which means we need a simple way to enable it on demand and not by default
[04:09] <slomo> \sh: it uses all interfaces with the MULTICAST flag set by default... and for disabling, just disable the daemon and everything is fine ;)
[04:10] <slomo> and the daemon isn't installed by default (unless the package using avahi has an hardcoded dependency on it)
[04:10] <ivoks> well
[04:10] <ivoks> we should all install it
[04:10] <\sh> slomo: no..other way around..those security incidents should be disabled by default...and only enabled, with a lot of warnings and more warnings and "please don't do it", on demand
[04:10] <ivoks> just cause lathiat works on it :)
[04:11] <slomo> \sh: just read above... the daemon isn't installed by default normally... you need to install it yourself to get all this magic ;)
[04:13] <\sh> slomo: phew..
[04:13] <\sh> and nobody should come up with the idea to install and enable it by default...I will go back to linux from scratch ;)
[04:15] <slomo> \sh: and for other questions... #avahi  :)
[04:16] <\sh> slomo: well I only wanted to have a light on "what does it do to my system" ;)
[04:17] <HiddenWolf> \sh: not to much, by default, due to the no open ports policy
[04:30] <Nafallo> hmm
[04:31] <Nafallo> \sh: you think the missing line fixes my bug?
[04:31] <\sh> Nafallo: no...the missing line was in the libnotify bug patch..but somehow I missed it because it wasn't an add...I think it belonged to the new upcoming 0.10 source dev tree
[04:32] <\sh> Nafallo: but I received a mail that this belongs actually to this bugfix...
[04:32] <Nafallo> ah, oki.
[04:33] <Nafallo> so the patch wasn't complete either way then ;-)
[04:34] <\sh> Nafallo: right...updated my local bzr archives now...have to rsync them to tiber
[04:35] <Nafallo> ah
[04:35] <Nafallo> that's why it wasn't updated then :-P
[04:45] <Keybuk> hmm, the log out dialog really needs some kind of "I'm On Top!" hint
[04:46] <slomo> and a stay-on-top-and-disable-everything-else hint ;)
[04:46] <Keybuk> and it REALLY needs to not segfault and shut down the machine when I click "Cancel" ;)
[04:47] <Nafallo> lol
[04:52] <sivang> Keybuk: owww
[04:53] <Keybuk> heh, I'm too happy?
[04:53] <Kamion> hooray, my mad syslinux hacks work
[04:54] <ogra> Keybuk, s/happy/gentile ?
[04:54] <ogra> :)
[04:54] <sivang> \sh: lol
[04:55] <sivang> \sh: stupid movie :)
[04:55] <sivang> I also watched it some 5 years ago
[04:55] <Keybuk> \sh: heh, amusingly Aq (LugRadio/WolvesLug) was ripping into that movie and declared in a loud voice that "yeah, as if you've seen ANY programmer ever go around the place on rollerblades"
[04:55] <Keybuk> I was sitting opposite him
[04:56] <sivang> Keybuk: wearing rollerblades?
[04:57] <Keybuk> not at the time
[04:57] <Keybuk> wolves is a bit far too skate to
[04:58] <Nafallo> baah
[04:58] <\sh> sivang: actually I wanted to know how angelina jolie was looking in her early days...
[04:58] <Nafallo> he gets the nice girl in the end. I sure hope it's a real story :-).
[04:59] <\sh> just before she went upstairs to play a computer character
[04:59] <Keybuk> it has the "I am standing here beside myself" guy from Short Circuit in it
[04:59] <Keybuk> how can it not be an ultimately great movie?
[04:59] <Keybuk> sabdfl: Hackers, great movie, no? :)
[04:59] <desrt> Keybuk; horrible movie
[05:00] <desrt> Keybuk; i was actually discussing this with a friend last night.  it's his favourite movie but he admits it's horrible.
[05:01] <mjg59> It's not a /horrible/ movie
[05:01] <Keybuk> bah
[05:01] <mjg59> Antitrust is a horrible movie
[05:01] <desrt> (his attraction to it is for nostalgic reasons)
[05:01] <Nafallo> mjg59: word!
[05:01] <Nafallo> :-)
[05:01] <Keybuk> Anti-trust is like a car crash though
[05:01] <Keybuk> you watch it with rapt attention
[05:01] <mjg59> "Apple's shares yesterday closed at $80.86" ha ha ha
[05:02] <desrt> how appropriate given recent circumstances.
[05:02] <\sh> well..hackers is just like weired science (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090305/) 
[05:02] <\sh> a nice teenie movie :) just replace Kelly LeBrock with Angelina Jolie
[05:03] <Nafallo> that's another reason Hackers rocks! Angelina! :-D
[05:03] <sivang> \sh: weird scient..hmmm :)
[05:04] <desrt> wow
[05:04] <desrt> that's _weird_
[05:04] <desrt> that actually happened yesterday?
[05:04] <\sh> sivang: 1985...funny movie...but just a typical "I'm a model and try to act..so I need to show my boobs only and shake my bum"
[05:04] <desrt> i thought that was a quote from the movie or something
[05:04] <sivang> \sh: exactly :)
[05:05] <sivang> \sh: I didn't know angelina was in hackers 
[05:06] <Nafallo> sivang: she's the girl :-)
[05:06] <Keybuk> "Acid Burn"
[05:07] <sivang> Nafallo: with the short hair?
[05:07] <Riddell> elmo: please reject kdnssd-avahi from NEW, agreed with debian to just include it in kdelibs
[05:07] <\sh> sivang: yepp
[05:08] <sivang> I didn't recognize her in so short hair....
[05:08] <Kamion> lamont: what happened to the daily d-i build I triggered by hand a little while ago?
[05:08] <Kamion> I don't see a build log for it
[05:09] <lamont> Kamion: which arch?
[05:09] <Kamion> amd64/i386/powerpc/sparc
[05:09] <Kamion> oh, hmm, it's possible I only processed this morning's build just before triggering the new one and didn't wait for an intervening cron.daily
[05:10] <Kamion> that would screw it, wouldn't it?
[05:11] <lamont> there was an i386 build at 1517 your time... sound right?
[05:11] <lamont> built-successfully
[05:11] <Kamion> mm, right, I think it must have been uploaded and rejected
[05:11] <lamont> Jan 11 15:21:00 buildd-mail: Moved debian-installer_20051026ubuntu11.0.20060111 to upload-dapper
[05:11] <lamont> yeah
[05:11] <lamont> um, yeah
[05:11] <Kamion> there've been a couple of intervening cron.dailies so it should work now
[05:11] <lamont> wanna-build and I don't always see eye-to-ey
[05:11] <lamont> e
[05:12] <lamont> it's more a function of whether or not cron.daily runs _during_ the sbuild
[05:12] <lamont> or something like that
[05:12] <Kamion> it probably did
[05:12] <fabbione> Kamion: you are not triggering sparc :) i am doing it manually.. do you want to be able to?
[05:12] <fabbione> do you need one right now?
[05:12] <Kamion> fabbione: oh, right, yeah, not sparc sorry
[05:12] <Kamion> not for sparc, no
[05:12] <Riddell> Mithrandir: I still get the "underlying authentication module" error on today's kubuntu live cd
[05:12] <fabbione> :D
[05:12] <lamont> Kamion: and you don't love hppa anymore?/
[05:12] <fabbione> Kamion: ok :)
[05:12] <Kamion> lamont: my script doesn't know how to trigger it, and if I ever knew, I've forgotten
[05:13] <lamont> Kamion: bld-3.mmjgroup.com, otherwise no diff
[05:13] <Mithrandir> Riddell: I should probably take a look at kubuntu sometime, then.
[05:13] <Kamion> lamont: thanks, it knows now
[05:13] <Mithrandir> Riddell: it helps if you actually ping me while I'm at work and not when I've gone home. :-P
[05:14] <Kamion> Riddell: the manifest for kubuntu daily-live shows an old timestamp so I suspect it's just an old livefs
[05:14] <Kamion> http://terranova.buildd/~buildd/LiveCD/dapper/kubuntu/latest/livecd-20060111-i386.out (from chinstrap) confirms build failure
[05:15] <Kamion>   kubuntu-desktop: Depends: cupsys-driver-gimpprint but it is not going to be installed
[05:15] <Kamion>                    Depends: foomatic-db-gimp-print but it is not going to be installed
[05:15] <lamont> go cupsys
[05:15] <pitti> dholbach: ^ that should be gutenprint now, right?
[05:15] <Kamion> yes
[05:15] <ogra> ah, same applys for ubuntu and edubuntu 
[05:15] <Kamion> the Ubuntu seeds need to be changed too; I'll do that
[05:16] <ogra> Kamion, could you add gnome-screensaver as well and remove xscreensaver ? 
[05:16] <Riddell> Mithrandir: you don't work from home?
[05:16] <ogra> oh and xscreensaver-data
[05:16] <Mithrandir> Riddell: no, I work from an office.
[05:16] <pitti> Kamion: NB that gutenprint does produce cupsys-driver-gimpprint, however, it produces foomatic-db-gutenprint now
[05:16] <Kamion> ogra: it's already done
[05:16] <sivang> \sh: did you manage to make your notify-daemon to work?
[05:16] <Kamion> you did it
[05:16] <ogra> Kamion, oh, thanks
[05:16] <lamont> Kamion: is cupsys not seeded in dapper then?
[05:17] <Mithrandir> Riddell: and even if I did work from home, I would have had work hours and non-work-hours. :-)
[05:17] <ogra> Kamion, do my edubuntu changes get synced ? i only did it for edubuntu 
[05:17] <\sh> sivang: notify-daemon? you mean gajim?
[05:17] <ogra> Kamion, else i agree about the amnesia part 
[05:17] <Kamion> ogra: I beg to differ, you did it in the Ubuntu seeds
[05:17] <ogra> hmm
[05:17] <Kamion> bzr log also begs to differ
[05:17] <pitti> Kamion: (still, c-d-gimpprint is only a transitional package, so changing the seeds is fine)
[05:18] <sivang> \sh: oops. brain.rollback()
[05:18] <Kamion> yeah, I'm changing them over now
[05:19] <ogra> Kamion, hmpf .... i should do a calcination checkup 
[05:19] <Kamion> Nafallo: doesn't matter?
[05:20] <Nafallo> Kamion: just to save an upload of them? :-)
[05:20] <Mithrandir> Nafallo: I'm not, as I haven't even checked them out yet.
[05:20] <Kamion> Nafallo: *shrug*
[05:21] <elmo> mozilla-firefox-locale-ca (1.0.6-1/1.0.6-1ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
[05:21] <elmo> mozilla-firefox-locale-eu (1.0+0.1-1/1.0+0.1-1ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
[05:21] <elmo> pitti: do we need them?
[05:21] <pitti> elmo: no, all of them are obsolete and superseded by -all
[05:21] <elmo> Kamion: are you trying to build an image?
[05:21] <pitti> elmo: I'll unseed them
[05:21] <pitti> (after Kamion finished his changes)
[05:21] <Kamion> elmo: soonish
[05:21] <Kamion> why?
[05:22] <elmo> Kamion: was gonna do some removals, but it's not important, I'll wait
[05:22] <dholbach> pitti: sorry for the gutenprint breakage
[05:22] <pitti> dholbach: is the package itself broken?
[05:23] <dholbach> pitti: no, the dependency :)
[05:23] <pitti> dholbach: I wonder why Kamion has troubles with installing cupsys-driver-gimpprint, it should just be the transitional package
[05:23] <pitti> dholbach: ah, the seeds
[05:23] <Kamion> pitti: I don't, the live fs had trouble this morning before I promoted *-gutenprint
[05:23] <ogra> pitti, all -desktop packages have
[05:23] <Kamion> there is no breakage now
[05:23] <pitti> Kamion: ah, ok, that explains
[05:23] <Kamion> ogra: had, this morning; have no longer
[05:23] <ogra> yes
[05:24] <ogra> :)
[05:24] <Kamion> ogra,Riddell: should xscreensaver-data be in the kubuntu seeds? (I'm merging)
[05:24] <Kamion> or xscreensaver-gl I guess
[05:24] <dholbach> anyway, i'm dogwalking - bbl
[05:24] <ogra> its only the hacks, dunno if riddell wants to use them
[05:24] <ogra> they shouldnt be in edubuntu
[05:25] <Kamion> ok
[05:25] <Kamion> I'll leave them out in the merge for now
[05:25] <blue-frog> Kamion, so i guess i just need to wait for my repo to be updated. I have the gutenprint problem.
[05:25] <Kamion> blue-frog: correct
[05:25] <Riddell> Kamion: no thanks
[05:26] <Kamion> ok
[05:26] <Kamion> ouch, this hasn't been merged for long enough that the Kubuntu install CDs will definitely be hosed due to kernel ABI desync
[05:29] <Kamion> elmo: I'll do this d-i upload unless you're on it already
[05:29] <ogra> Kamion, so you plan the final flight3 images today already or is this just a test run ?
[05:29] <elmo> Kamion: knock yourself out
[05:29] <ogra> i have a edubuntu-artwork change not completely ready yet i'd like to have in
[05:30] <Kamion> ogra: no harm starting early
[05:30] <ogra> i know
[05:30] <blue-frog> ogra do gcompris throw you back to login screen in edubuntu as it does for me in ubuntu?
[05:30] <ogra> blue-frog, didnt happen to me, nope 
[05:31] <Kamion> I don't know exactly, but I have lots of stuff I need to verify
[05:31] <ogra> do you talk about dapper ? 
[05:31] <blue-frog> ogra yes
[05:31] <ogra> and the recent gcompris ? 
[05:31] <blue-frog> 7.2-1ubuntu1
[05:31] <ogra> yes
[05:32] <blue-frog> from synpatic 1 hour ago
[05:32] <ogra> nope, runs fine as we speak
[05:32] <ogra> just tried it
[05:32] <Nafallo> *grumble* darkelf just died again. she will have to do memorytest while I sleep :-P
[05:32] <ogra> at least on amd64 and ppc, i have no i386 handy currently
[05:33] <blue-frog> ogra am at a loss on how to try to trace that as it kills my session (i386 for me)
[05:33] <Kamion> ogra: you want xchat-gnome for edubuntu?
[05:33] <ogra> not really, but i guess we dont want to keep xchat in main
[05:34] <Kamion> I don't see why not, seb128 seems to have been recommending xchat to people who don't like the UI changes in xchat-gnome
[05:34] <Kamion> I'll leave it at xchat for now
[05:34] <ogra> hmm, but duplicating apps is not our usual way of handling such stuff 
[05:35] <Kamion> true
[05:35] <Kamion> and no rss-glx, xscreensaver-gl, xscreensaver-data?
[05:35] <ogra> not for edubuntu, nope
[05:35] <ogra> it wont use any hacks
[05:35] <ogra> to evil for ltsp ...
[05:36] <Kamion> Riddell: ah, the other reason you were getting that error was that the kubuntu seeds hadn't been merged for so long
[05:36] <Kamion> so no user-setup
[05:36] <Riddell> Kamion: right, have you done that now or should I?
[05:36] <Kamion> I have, but please try to do it reasonably frequently in future
[05:36] <Riddell> yes, will do
[05:37] <Kamion> I usually try to do a merge everywhere when I'm committing a seed change that's necessary for everything to keep on working, but sometimes I forget
[05:37] <Mithrandir> Riddell: that should fix your live cd problem as well, I'd imagine.
[05:38] <Kamion> I'll do *-meta rebuilds in a bit
[05:38] <Kamion> we'll need those before rebuilding the live fses
[05:50] <\sh> pitti: can you check the buildlogs of {hoary,breezy}-security?
[05:51] <ogra_ibook> seb128, btw, the new gconf is impressing from a derivative distro POV 
[05:52] <ogra_ibook> it even respects symlinks in /usr/share/gconf/defaults :)
[05:52] <Kamion> er, do we want gnome-screensaver in main now?
[05:52] <Kamion> mdz: ^--
[05:52] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, he already asked for flight2 
[05:52] <Keybuk> seb128: do you know off-hand why gdm is ignoring my "REBOOT YOU FUCKER" command?
[05:53] <Keybuk> it's saying "OK" and grinning at me
[05:59] <sivang> Keybuk: this happens to me occasionaly
[06:00] <ogra_ibook> sivang, i hope you filed bugs :)
[06:01] <sivang> ogra_ibook: Hrm, that was one too many time that I felt I Had done something wrong, but I'm waiting for this to happen again to me and then I will file one :)
[06:01] <sivang> ogra_ibook: what sort of info can I provide on such a bug? (where to look, etc)
[06:01] <ogra_ibook> you can switch on the gdm logging in the config
[06:01] <ogra_ibook> annd attach the log
[06:02] <sivang> ogra_ibook: ok, thanks. will do.
[06:03] <Keybuk> oh, interesting
[06:03] <Keybuk> it looks like it has actually set the method, just not done anything about it
[06:03] <Keybuk> *ponders*
[06:04] <segfault> who's in charge of the new logout dialog?
[06:04] <mdke> infinity, nudge #3
[06:05] <HiddenWolf> segfault: lllmanulll in -desktop
[06:05] <mdke> segfault, desktop team
[06:05] <segfault> k
[06:07] <seb128> Keybuk: nop, it works fine for me and we have to bug about it. Does "shutdown -r now" works fine?
[06:08] <pitti> Kamion: can I mess with the seeds again?
[06:08] <Keybuk> seb128: figured it out
[06:08] <Keybuk> seb128: there's code in gdm to explicitly prevent shutdown/reboot/etc. if there's an X session open
[06:08] <seb128> nice
[06:09] <pitti> Keybuk: nevermind, I don't need to
[06:09] <pitti> Kamion: ^
[06:10] <pitti> Keybuk: (sorry, ETABFINGER)
[06:10] <Keybuk> seb128: so where's the bug do we think, gdm-signal or gdm?
[06:10] <Keybuk> bug = gdm-signal --halt does nothing
[06:11] <sivang> does anybody know if daniels is back?
[06:13] <seb128> Keybuk: gdm doesn't use gdm-signal
[06:13] <seb128> Keybuk: gnome-session uses the gdmflexiserver to give the order to gdm and the action is done when you return to the gdm screen (ie: when the session is closed)
[06:14] <Keybuk> right
[06:14] <Keybuk> that's not what I'm talking about
[06:14] <Keybuk> I want to be able to reboot the machine now
[06:14] <HiddenWolf> sivang: he was here last night.
[06:14] <seb128> from GNOME or from the login screen?
[06:14] <Keybuk> from inside GNOME
[06:14] <seb128> you can't
[06:14] <seb128> that's a feature :)
[06:14] <Keybuk> I can see a line of code that'll let me do just that <g>
[06:14] <seb128> you have to close your session
[06:15] <Keybuk> there's an ungodly hack going in SOMEWHERE
[06:15] <ogra_ibook> hmm, but gdm-signal --hibernate apparently works
[06:15] <seb128> hibernate/sleep doesn't require to close a session
[06:15] <seb128> reboot/halt do
[06:15] <ogra_ibook> yup
[06:15] <Keybuk> ogra_ibook: that doesn't shutdown though, --halt doesn't work
[06:15] <Keybuk> seb128: does gnome-session provide any way to close the session from an app?
[06:15] <seb128> --halt wait for you to go back to the gdm login
[06:16] <seb128> good question, hum
[06:17] <Keybuk> calling gnome_client_request_save results in the logout dialog popping up
[06:17] <Keybuk> I want to bypass that
[06:20] <Keybuk> ooh
[06:20] <Keybuk> yay
[06:20] <Keybuk> if I put INTERACT_NONE it doesn't
[06:20] <Keybuk> hurrah
[06:20] <Keybuk> solved, send SET_LOGOUT_ACTION REBOOT to gdm, then tell the session to save with no interaction
[06:21] <segfault> ia ficar melhor, neh?
[06:22] <segfault> ops, EWRONGWINDOW.
[06:22] <seb128_> hum
[06:22] <seb128_> I broke my session :p
[06:22] <seb128_> if somebody said something for me since 2-3 min say it again
[06:22] <seb128_> Keybuk: why do you need to reboot without closing your session?
[06:23] <Keybuk> seb128_: I don't, I just need the machine to reboot
[06:23] <Mithrandir> 18:17 < Keybuk> calling gnome_client_request_save results in the logout dialog popping up
[06:23] <Mithrandir> 18:17 < Keybuk> I want to bypass that
[06:23] <seb128_> thanks
[06:23] <Keybuk> I solved it though
[06:23] <seb128_> Keybuk: why not using the session dialog?
[06:23] <Keybuk> because the user just clicked a "Restart Now" button, and it'd be a bit unsporting to ask them again ;)
[06:24] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/restart-dialog.png
[06:24] <Keybuk> (which is what you get after clicking on:
[06:24] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/restart-req.png
[06:25] <seb128_> maybe vuntz know :)
[06:25] <Keybuk> I worked it out
[06:25] <Keybuk> send SET_LOGOUT_ACTION REBOOT to gdm
[06:25] <seb128_> there is gnome-session-save --kill too 
[06:25] <Keybuk> then call gnome_client_request_save on gnome_master_client with the INTERACT_NONE option
[06:25] <seb128_> right
[06:29] <Keybuk> hmm
[06:30] <Keybuk> Monospace is dancing around my screen now, something must have changed in that reboot :-/
[06:32] <mjg59> Keybuk: It shouldn't say "Cancel"
[06:32] <mjg59> It should be "Don't reboot" "reboot"
[06:32] <Keybuk> I know, but I can't seem to change that one
[06:32] <Keybuk> my glade-fu is not good
[06:32] <mjg59> Ha
[06:32] <Keybuk> I wanted "Reboot Now" and "Later"
[06:32] <mjg59> Have you just inserted a stock cancel icon?
[06:33] <Keybuk> uh, I just copied the glade file from another program and tweaked it a bit O:-)
[06:33] <mjg59> Right...
[06:33] <ogra_ibook> ugh
[06:33] <mjg59> Better get someone to fix that, then :)
[06:34] <Keybuk> so if I turn off stock button
[06:34] <Keybuk> and set the label and icon myself ...
[06:34] <Keybuk> hmm
[06:34] <ogra_ibook> that will work fine ... but i'd use something like gazpacho 
[06:34] <Keybuk> should they have icons?
[06:34] <Keybuk> both have icons? just one have icon?
[06:35] <ogra_ibook> follow the gnome setting ? 
[06:35] <Keybuk> there isn't a gnome setting for dialog boxes
[06:36] <seb128> Keybuk: use an icon for both
[06:37] <mjg59> I don't like the fact that the new logout menu seems to present "sleep" unconditionally
[06:37] <seb128> hum
[06:37] <mjg59> The tooltip is also wrong
[06:37] <ogra_ibook> Keybuk, there is a gnome setting for toolbar buttons
[06:37] <Keybuk> there's a tooltip? :p
[06:37] <seb128> mjg59: yeah, that's a bug somewhere
[06:37] <mjg59> ogra_ibook: dialog buttons are not toolbar buttons
[06:38] <ogra_ibook> mjg59, i know
[06:38] <mjg59> seb128: Can we have the window preferences back?
[06:39] <ogra_ibook> 7me would trade the window preferences for windows that dont get stuck on the desktop edge
[06:39] <seb128> mjg59: no
[06:39] <mjg59> seb128: It's just there doesn't actually seem to be any way to get at it now
[06:39] <Keybuk> ogra_ibook: don't hold down the shift key
[06:39] <seb128> mjg59: it's MenusRevisited spec, people who wants to change their focus can also start an app or unmask a menu entry
[06:39] <Keybuk> mjg59: gnome-window-properties
[06:40] <mjg59> Keybuk: Yes, right, I can do it from the command line
[06:40] <Keybuk> mjg59: you can also turn it on from the menu editor
[06:40] <seb128> or from alt-f2
[06:40] <seb128> or use the menu editor
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> Keybuk, the shift key doesnt change anything 
[06:40] <ogra_ibook> Keybuk, in fact no key does change it it seems
[06:40] <Keybuk> oh that's good, the menu editor crashed gnome-panel
[06:40] <Keybuk> and it's now respawning in a loop
[06:40] <mjg59> I entirely understand the reasoning behind removing some of the applications
[06:40] <Keybuk> ogra_ibook: my windows don't stick at the edge
[06:41] <Keybuk> oh, they do
[06:41] <Keybuk> neat
[06:41] <ogra_ibook> with recent metacity ? 
[06:41] <ogra_ibook> ah
[06:41] <ogra_ibook> its quite annoying on 12"
[06:41] <Keybuk> aha!  they've turned on gravity in general
[06:41] <ogra_ibook> since i tend to move windows half off the screen
[06:41] <seb128> Keybuk: yeah, gnome-vfs/inotify bug fixed with the cvs
[06:41] <infinity> Yeah, I like the gravity.
[06:41] <mjg59> But making it hard to enable sloppy focus is going to crucify us amongst the "power users"
[06:42] <seb128> mjg59: the starter guide should document that
[06:42] <mjg59> seb128: These are the people who aren't going to read docs
[06:42] <seb128> mjg59: you can argue than power user want gconf-editor and .. and ... everything we have hidden by default
[06:43] <mjg59> (Yes, it's entirely their own fault, but they're *still* the people that are going to blog about it and scream and whinge)
[06:43] <infinity> mjg59: Aren't "power users" going to end up finding gconf-editor and tweaking everything through there, cause it's, like, the new regedit?
[06:43] <Keybuk> this is up there with removing the "Enter" button from the gdm theme
[06:43] <Keybuk> the number of users I've seen sitting there after typing their name going "now what?"
[06:43] <seb128> Keybuk: that's a point of dapper-desktop-change I think, and there is a bug about that
[06:44] <mjg59> infinity: I think there's a difference here. I'm thinking of people who are actually in the useful development community, rather than the ricer crowd
[06:44] <seb128> (putting an "enter" button)
[06:44] <seb128> mjg59: is there many people changing their focus mode? I use the stock one by example
[06:44] <mjg59> seb128: I find click to focus irritating, since there's no way to decouple it from "raise window"
[06:45] <Keybuk> focus -> sloppy
[06:45] <Keybuk> no interval
[06:45] <Keybuk> double-click to roll-up
[06:45] <Keybuk> and move with super
[06:45] <seb128> I tend to switch between apps with alt-tab
[06:45] <Keybuk> in fact, yes, I do change every preference ;)
[06:45] <infinity> mjg59: There's a "raise_on_click" option you can turn off.
[06:45] <seb128> and have quite a bunch of stuff maximized anyway
[06:45] <ogra_ibook> Keybuk, heh, i have the same setup :)
[06:45] <Kinnison> and would get really pissed off if it wasn't easy to switch to sloppy
[06:46] <infinity> mjg59: Of course, that goes back to previous arguments, since you need gconf-editor to find it.
[06:46] <Keybuk> seb128: yes, but this is about what our users change, not what you change :)
[06:46] <mjg59> infinity: Fuck me. That's relatively new.
[06:46] <ogra_ibook> Kinnison, it isnt anymore
[06:46] <Kinnison> I have to switch my dad's desktop to sloppy when I'm helping him out, and back when I'm done -- to have to use gconf-editor would be really annoying
[06:46] <ogra_ibook> Kinnison, unless you know the way
[06:46] <seb128> Keybuk: I think that most users are fine with the default setting
[06:46] <Keybuk> I think most of our newbie users are
[06:46] <Keybuk> and I think most of our elite users aren't
[06:46] <seb128> Keybuk: if that's not the case we should fix the default settings rather than forcing them to use the dialog
[06:46] <mjg59> seb128: Most users probably are, but this comes back to what jdub keeps pointing out
[06:46] <infinity> mjg59: It appears that with it off, it raises when you click the titlebar, but will not raise when you click anywhere else (no matter how many times)
[06:46] <Keybuk> pissing off the elite users will lose us the newbie ones
[06:47] <seb128> mjg59: that's jdub who suggested to hide the focus configuration btw :p
[06:47] <mjg59> We can't /just/ appeal to new users. We need to be able to appeal to the people who write about us.
[06:47] <seb128> right
[06:47] <mjg59> seb128: Well, in this case he's going against his general statements :)
[06:47] <seb128> so we shoudl have "complexify the menus" rather than "simplify the menus"
[06:47] <Kinnison> Who chose to remove the focus type from that dialog?
[06:47] <mjg59> infinity: Yeah, that does exactly what I want
[06:47] <Keybuk> seb128: I agree that we need to simplify the menus
[06:47] <mjg59> Kinnison: The entire dialog is gone from the default menu
[06:47] <HiddenWolf> Wasn't there some discussion about providing user profiles?
[06:47] <Keybuk> but I think there was a lot lower hanging fruit than the Windows dialog
[06:47] <Kinnison> mjg59: You what?!
[06:48] <Keybuk> all the obscenely complicated ones, for a start
[06:48] <Keybuk> and, for example
[06:48] <Keybuk> why is Windows gone, but not Menus & Toolbars?
[06:48] <mjg59> seb128: No - the idea is that we shouldn't be /less/ appealing to these users than competing Gnome desktops
[06:48] <Keybuk> (which STILL has the wrong defaults)
[06:48] <Keybuk> why is Sessions there?
[06:48] <Keybuk> why is Preferred Applications there?
[06:48] <Keybuk> etc.
[06:48] <mjg59> Keybuk: How about we argue about this in London?
[06:48] <infinity> With bats.
[06:49] <seb128> Keybuk: preferred app is quite useful for newbies too
[06:49] <Keybuk> ooh, yah, bats
[06:49] <Keybuk> and jello!
[06:49] <Keybuk> seb128: no it's not, because they have only got the application selection we give them
[06:49] <seb128> session is the only way to save a session now
[06:49] <Kinnison> multimedia systems selector
[06:49] <Keybuk> seb128: newbies don't know how to save a session
[06:49] <Kinnison> is that one still there?
[06:49] <Keybuk> Kinnison: that went
[06:49] <mjg59> seb128: That's a bug, not a feature
[06:49] <seb128> let's drop the menus :)
[06:49] <Keybuk> seb128: newbies don't know what a session is!
[06:49] <Keybuk> actually, I'd rather like us to go to a windowed preferences
[06:50] <Keybuk> with an advanced/power user tab
[06:50] <Keybuk> tab/button/toggly
[06:50] <hunger_> Keybuk: Even newbies can learn, you know?
[06:50] <mjg59> "We've removed this clicky box, so now we have to keep this horrible preferences application because it's got a button that does the same thing as the clicky box we removed"
[06:50] <Keybuk> hunger_: I'm using seb's argument against him :)
[06:50] <mjg59> To me that suggests that removing the clicky box was the wrong thing to do, not that keeping the preferences application is the right one
[06:50] <Kinnison> We're going to be back to the configurability/usability of GNOME 2.0 if we're not careful
[06:50] <hunger_> Keybuk: Oh, sorry, just returned to the keyboard, I think I missed the context.
[06:50] <seb128> why do people come 3 months after discussions/changes to complain instead of starting to discuss changes at the right time? :)
[06:51] <Keybuk> seb128: because it takes 3 months for people's desktops to work well enough to notice them? :)
[06:51] <seb128> ah ah
[06:51] <mjg59> seb128: Because I've only recently noticed that it was missing, since I generally don't have any need to change it
[06:51] <\sh> seb128: it's .... human :)
[06:51] <Keybuk> and we tend to be "not invited" to the discussions
[06:51] <seb128> Keybuk: I've mailed devel-announce about that, what kind of invitation do you need? :)
[06:52] <siretart> elmo: please sync wmfire_1.2.3-1/unstable, ok to override ubuntu changes
[06:52] <Keybuk> seb128: after the spec was already written and approved
[06:52] <Keybuk> with the spec drafted in a closed room with just you, sabdfl and jdub wasn't it? :p
[06:52] <seb128> right, but the spec is clear we will do changes according to user feedback
[06:52] <seb128> and that's why we did the changes early
[06:52] <seb128> and put totem back to the menu by example :)
[06:52] <Keybuk> users said "We don't want the Window Preferences dialog" ?
[06:53] <seb128> no, that one was in the big room with like 10 people at the table in fact
[06:53] <seb128> dapper-desktop-plan was the closed room one :)
[06:53] <hunger> pitti: Could you please remove the pid-file of cups after killing the daemon?
[06:53] <seb128> anyway we have plenty of time to tweak the menus still
[06:54] <Keybuk> ooh, the little arrows on the menus are iiiickle
[06:54] <Keybuk> like 2px by 3px
[06:54] <Keybuk> what went wrong there?
[06:54] <hunger> pitti: Feels untidy to leave that after the daemon is gone.
[06:54] <ogra_ibook> Keybuk, but they are antialiased :)
[06:54] <pitti> hunger: right, thanks
[06:55] <Keybuk> ogra_ibook: i can't tell ... doesn't look like it
[06:56] <hunger> pitti: Thanks for not minding me pestering you with my petty little requests (or at least not complaining too much about them;-)
[06:57] <siretart> elmo: please sync xmms-jack_0.15-1/unstable, ok to override ubuntu changes
[06:59] <Keybuk> seb128: it does strike me that we've reached the wrong conclusion to a bug
[06:59] <Keybuk> "The Preferences menu is too cluttered" -> "Remove things"
[06:59] <Keybuk> rather than "Find something better than a menu"
[06:59] <seb128> there is some plan of "find something better than a menu", that's just it's not for dapper
[07:00] <Keybuk> right, but breaking things now to fix them later isn't great, eh?
[07:00] <Keybuk> "we plan to move to Xgl for dapper+1, so we removed X.org from dapper"
[07:00] <seb128> we are not trying to break things
[07:00] <seb128> the purpose of the spec was mainly to solve the confusing duplications of preferences categories between app and system
[07:01] <Keybuk> it doesn't seem to have done that though
[07:01] <seb128> it has
[07:01] <seb128> you don't have that category to app on a stock install
[07:01] <Keybuk> Windows was as relevant as Menus & Toolbars
[07:01] <Keybuk> one has gone, one has remained
[07:01] <seb128> we did some cleanup too which might be wrong
[07:01] <seb128> and we said we will adapt according to user comments :)
[07:01] <Keybuk> and Menus & Toolbars STILL HAS THE WRONG DEFAULTS <g>
[07:02] <Burgwork> Keybuk, raise this on -devel and lets get some other feedback
[07:02] <Keybuk> (did I mention that already?)
[07:02] <seb128> detachable menus?
[07:02] <Burgwork> seb128, I want xsane to return
[07:02] <Keybuk> seb128: detachable menus and toolbars should both be OFF
[07:02] <seb128> Burgwork: and a pony? :p
[07:02] <Burgwork> seb128, nah
[07:02] <seb128> Keybuk: menus one is fixed upstream, I've commited the change to CVS 2 days ago
[07:03] <seb128> ups, toolbars I mean
[07:03] <seb128> menu is off by default
[07:03] <Keybuk> cool
[07:03] <infinity> pitti: BTW, s/--user root/--user cupsys/ in your init script (in the stop target) would go a long way to making it actually WORK. :)
[07:03] <pitti> infinity: heh, I'm just cleaning up that bit anyway
[07:03] <Keybuk> seb128: anyway, finished flaming for a bit now :)
[07:03] <Keybuk> gnome-session loves me again
[07:03] <pitti> infinity: good morning :)
[07:04] <Keybuk> so I feel less hate
[07:04] <Keybuk> pitti: how did I break cupsys? :p
[07:04] <infinity> pitti: When the user, name, and PID actually match, the next bit you do is pointless, since "--retry TERM/10" expands to "--retry TERM/10/KILL/10"
[07:04] <pitti> infinity: btw, what would you propose for enigmail? drop the mozilla package, or split the source?
[07:04] <pitti> Keybuk: nevermind, just the lost /var/run/cups/ issue
[07:04] <seb128> Keybuk, mjg59: thanks for the rant on on the focus capplets, for what is worth I think we should enable it by default too, I'll ping jdub before doing the change back though
[07:04] <Keybuk> pitti: ah, I thought that one had a mkdir
[07:05] <infinity> pitti: We can duplicate the source.  It's tiny, and it's a pretty useful thing that mozilla users would cry without.
[07:05] <pitti> infinity: seb128 uploaded librsvg2 against ffox today, so enigmail is the last bit that keeps moz in main
[07:05] <mjg59> pitti: Got a second?
[07:05] <pitti> mjg59: yes
[07:05] <seb128> mjg59: if that's for a desktop issue you may want to Cc ubuntu-desktop too 
[07:06] <mjg59> seb128: Heh. Sorry, should have done that. Never mind.
[07:06] <infinity> pitti: Remind me after I wake up (I haven't yet slept.  I know, I know...), perhaps via an email sent in 5 minutes which I'll read in a few hours, and I'll merge and split enigmail.
[07:06] <seb128> np
[07:06] <mjg59> pitti: I've been talking to davidz about hal privileged operations
[07:06] <pitti> infinity: oh, then better go to bed :) I'll mail you
[07:06] <pitti> mjg59: oh, interesting :)
[07:07] <infinity> pitti: But seriously.  The init script.  Remove all that "wait 5 seconds, try to kill" business.  It's evil.  SSD does the right thing, if you feed it the right info. :)
[07:07] <mjg59> pitti: Basically, his opinion is that we should have a small daemon that runs as root and sits on dbus. It should only accept requests from hal. The only thing it should accept is a command name. It should validate this (check it's under /usr/lib/hal/scripts, or something) and then execute it as root. It should then pass back stdout, stderr and the return value in a sensible way.
[07:07] <pitti> infinity: yes, that's what I'm doing
[07:08] <pitti> mjg59: he plans this for a fair while now; will that be implemented soonish?
[07:08] <pitti> mjg59: this approach indeed sounds fine to me; just not the current one which does everything in the main hald
[07:08] <mjg59> pitti: He's hoping that we'll do it, since he's busy with RH stuff and they don't need it
[07:09] <pitti> mjg59: hmm, *I* don't need it either :)
[07:09] <mjg59> pitti: *We* need it in order to satisfy at least one spec
[07:09] <pitti> mjg59: from my POV implementing privileged active elements as separate dbus services would be more sane
[07:09] <mjg59> pitti: Why?
[07:09] <pitti> mjg59: power management?
[07:09] <mjg59> Yeah, power management
[07:10] <mjg59> We're blocking on this right now
[07:10] <sivang> mjg59: so this deamon would only take care of sending power mgmt commands?
[07:10] <pitti> mjg59: well, having a very small daemon that does one thing, has a narrow input and can be audited is always better than a huge daemon that does the world
[07:10] <mjg59> Basically, hal_util_helper_invoke_with_pipes needs to be broken out to another application that sits on dbus and runs as root
[07:10] <mjg59> pitti: The only thing this root-running daemon would do is execute commands if they're in the right location
[07:11] <pitti> mjg59: I see; it's a bit like a suid root program in the dbus architecture?
[07:11] <mjg59> We're talking about 40 lines of code plus some dbus glue, or so
[07:11] <mjg59> pitti: Yeah
[07:11] <pitti> security wise this sounds sensible to me; I was just totally opposed to running the complete hald as root
[07:11] <mjg59> The only security issue is that getting control of it would allow you to run these scripts as root
[07:11] <mjg59> Which is the same as getting control of any of the individual daemons would be
[07:11] <pitti> right
[07:12] <mjg59> It's probably a couple of hours of work, but I just don't have time to do it righ tnow
[07:12] <mjg59> (And I don't trust my dbus programming sufficiently)
[07:12] <pitti> but since these programs hopefully have a limited set of inputs, it wouldn't be total control, right?
[07:12] <pitti> mjg59: we can't avoid that anyway if we specifically want users to control power management and such
[07:12] <mjg59> pitti: Right. Worst that can happen is that you can suspend the machine and so on.
[07:13] <pitti> mjg59: that's why I actually like the networkmanager approach with this dhcdbd; it's a separate dbus service and can be installed independently
[07:14] <mjg59> pitti: Yeah. I think the proposed hal approach is basically identical in terms of security implications.
[07:14] <pitti> yes, just different in terms of granularity (packaging-wise)
[07:14] <mjg59> Yes
[07:15] <carlos> pitti, hi, do you have some time to talk?
[07:15] <pitti> carlos: yes, just go ahead :)
[07:15] <mjg59> pitti: So, can I convince you to code this? :)
[07:16] <pitti> mjg59: would require me to dig into the guts of dbus/hal as well; it's interesting in any case and has the potential to reunify our and upstream's approaches
[07:16] <pitti> mjg59: if mdz is fine with me spending time on this, I'll do it
[07:17] <mjg59> pitti: Ok, cool. 
[07:17] <mjg59> mdz: ^
[07:18] <mdz> mjg59: didn't you tell me a while ago that you were going to do this?
[07:19] <mjg59> mdz: That was the plan, but I'm swamped by real life
[07:19] <mjg59> I've got half a thesis to write by the end of the week
[07:19] <mjg59> It's the one thing blocking the power management spec
[07:19] <mdz> pitti is fairly booked as well; perhaps we could discuss this after the dev meeting?
[07:20] <mjg59> If you're happy leaving it that long, sure
[07:20] <mdz> the dev meeting is in about 14 hours
[07:20] <mjg59> Oh, right
[07:20] <mdz> i'm in the middle of another meeting right now
[07:20] <mjg59> Sorry, I managed to confuse it with the distro sprint
[07:21] <mjg59> Yes, no problem
[07:24] <lllmanulll> Hey, I'd like to file a bug about dapper not starting on my machine (while booting, freezes on "detecting and activating hardware") : which package should I file it against ?
[07:25] <Keybuk> "freezes" ?
[07:25] <Keybuk> or just takes a very long time?
[07:25] <pitti> hunger, infinity: new cupsd uploaded
[07:25] <Keybuk> if you wait, say, 3 minutes, does it carry on?
[07:26] <lllmanulll> Keybuk, loops :)
[07:26] <Keybuk> "loops" was not an answer
[07:26] <lllmanulll> Keybuk, "azx_get_response timeout", displaying ad lib on the screen
[07:26] <Keybuk> ok
[07:26] <Keybuk> file it against "linux"
[07:26] <lllmanulll> the motherboard is quite recent
[07:27] <mjg59> That's the sound driver
[07:27] <crimsun> I'll take it from here.
[07:28] <siretart> daniels: is it possible to specify dependencies for libgl/libglu headers in debian/control so that they are satisfiable in both unstable and dapper? I'd like to avoid divergence in my packages
[07:28] <crimsun> lllmanulll: please see http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2006-January/063381.html
[07:28] <siretart> daniels: I'm talking about build deps
[07:31] <infinity> siretart: libglu1-mesa-dev should work on both distributions.  For GL, you'd need "xlibmesa-gl-dev | libgl1-mesa-dev | libgl-dev" (in that order, since Debian's sbuild will only try the first option, ours will try the first AVAILABLE option.. Neat difference)
[07:32] <infinity> siretart: In theory, it won't be long before Debian's mesa stuff is in sync with our, though.  In theory.
[07:34] <siretart> infinity: do you happen to have in mind what would be correct for glu headers?
[07:34] <siretart> libglu1-xorg-dev | libglu1-mesa-dev | libglu-dev?
[07:35] <infinity> siretart: libglu1-mesa-dev exists on both distributions.
[07:35] <infinity> siretart: But you can prefer the xorg version on Debian if you want.  <shrug>
[07:35] <siretart> ah, so 
[07:35] <siretart>  libglu1-mesa-dev | libglu-dev should be just fine
[07:35] <siretart> thank you so much!
[07:37] <Keybuk> *** Unable to join #ubuntu-devel: Banned (go to bed!)
[07:38] <ogra_ibook> *giggle*
[07:38] <\sh> pitti: are you planning to be included in the DFN Cert advisory ML?
[07:55] <HrdwrBoB> set http_proxy=foo; apt-get update; unset http_proxy
[07:55] <ogra_ibook> and make that a shell alias command ? 
[07:57] <pitti> \sh: I didn't; should I?
[07:57] <\sh> pitti: would be a nice idea to have at least some translations of our bugreports in german :) and for free I think :)
[07:58] <pitti> heh
[07:58] <\sh> pitti: and we show to the public, that ubuntu is doing as well security patches
[07:59] <pitti> \sh: translations of bug reports?
[07:59] <pitti> \sh: that seems a bit stretched
[08:00] <\sh> pitti: do you know the security mailing list of DFN cert? the prologue is always a german summary of the bugreport which is the epilogue :)
[08:01] <pitti> \sh: ah, so s/bug report/USN/?
[08:01] <pitti> \sh: no, I don't know it
[08:03] <\sh> pitti: http://www.cert.dfn.de/infoserv/mls/win-sec-ssc.html
[08:03] <pitti> mdz: I'm not sure whether you got my question for the postgresql-8.0 breezy-updates patch?
[08:05] <pitti> mdz: also, we should walk through the list of pending -updates uploads and process/remove them (some of them are scaringly old)
[08:05] <\sh> pitti: I'd send you an example of one of those mails 
[08:07] <mdz> pitti: I did, I have the tab open in firefox but haven't read it yet
[08:07] <pitti> mdz: ok, thanks
[08:08] <mdz> pitti: I'm not sure that we have a means to remove things from there apart from asking elmo to fix it by hand
[08:08] <pitti> mdz: yes, that's what I mean
[08:08] <pitti> mdz: but I think some stuff can also be approved
[08:09] <mdz> pitti: I'm just saying that the reason things stay there is because it's inconvenient to remove them, but yes, we should clean it up
[08:10] <pitti> mdz: e. g. xine-lib, evince, ubuntu-docs uploads look pretty reasonable
[08:11] <pitti> mdz: and the ancient old evms uploads to fix RAID-5 corruption
[08:11] <Mithrandir> mdz: uhm, that's not ancient.
[08:11] <Mithrandir> s/mdz/pitti/
[08:12] <\sh> taking a nap...cu later :)
[08:12] <pitti> Mithrandir: oh, sorry; I did a similar upload months ago, seems that this is another flaw
[08:12] <Mithrandir> pitti: oh, ok.
[08:13] <Mithrandir> pitti: since I did an upload a week or two ago, fixing raid 5 corruption issues. :-P
[08:13] <pitti> Mithrandir: yes, I just read the .changes file :)
[08:13] <psusi> pitti: I swear I read somewhere that hal runs async with callouts so the callouts can do things like hal-set-property, only I have found that hal-set-property fails to connect unless I background it and sleep for a few seconds... is that supposed to work right?
[08:14] <pitti> Mithrandir: btw, I assigned that live cd user breakage bug to you, was that right? (seems that you are the new Mr. Casper now)
[08:15] <Mithrandir> pitti: yes, I seem to own the live cd now.
[08:17] <Mithrandir> pitti: uhm, what was the bug #?  Or is it a bit of time ago?
[08:17] <mdke> infinity, nudge #4
[08:17] <pitti> Mithrandir: #22052
[08:17] <Mithrandir> mdke: he's asleep
[08:18] <Mithrandir> (hopefully)
[08:18] <mdke> Mithrandir, that's ok, he can collect em
[08:18] <Mithrandir> pitti: that should be fixed with the newest dailies.
[08:18] <pitti> Mithrandir: great
[08:39] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, gnome-screensaver is missing ed/ubuntu-meta 
[08:41] <Kamion> oh, yeah, I should've promoted it first
[08:41] <Kamion> meh
[08:43] <Kamion> right, promoted now, will reupload ubuntu-meta/edubuntu-meta, er, later sometime
[08:43] <ogra_ibook> fine with me
[09:18] <blue-frog> system>preferences>sessions what package is that pls?
[09:19] <dholbach> blue-frog: gnome-session
[09:19] <blue-frog> ty
[10:26] <dilinger> BenC: are you still maintaining pam_mkhomedir?
[10:35] <daniels> siretart: libgl1-mesa-dev | xlibmesa-gl-dev | libgl-dev
[10:37] <siretart> daniels: thanks. but infinity already answered with this: 19:31:17 < infinity> siretart: libglu1-mesa-dev should work on both distributions.  For GL, you'd need "xlibmesa-gl-dev | libgl1-mesa-dev | libgl-dev" (in that order, since Debian's sbuild will only try the first option, ours will try the first AVAILABLE option.. Neat difference)
[10:54] <freestone> Mithrandir: Hi - got your email, but don't know where I am supposed to get the cd iso from - from the base system? Where?
[10:59] <daniels> siretart: oh, righto
[11:01] <siretart> btw, wasn't it a habit of sbuild always taking the last alternative in build dependencies first? do I mix it with something?
[11:04] <daniels> you'd be mixing that up
[11:15] <sivang> he following packages have unmet dependencies.
[11:15] <sivang>   bzrtools: Depends: bzr (= 0.7+200512311044)
[11:15] <sivang> E: Broken packages
[11:16] <sivang> anybody idea?
[11:28] <BenC> dilinger: I haven't touched that code in years
[11:29] <dilinger> BenC: ok.  seems kind of dangerous nowdays
[11:29] <dilinger> BenC: given that privsep makes it run as non-root, and it doesn't do any sort of randomization of the home directory name
[11:29] <BenC> dilinger: it was mainly used for debian's chroot's
[11:30] <BenC> it wasn't meant to be random :)
[11:30] <dilinger> i just started using it for a router where / is ro, mounting homedirectories in /tmp (which is tmpfs)
[11:30] <dilinger> heh, i know
[11:30] <dilinger> i assume it was meant to be run as root, though
[11:37] <Kamion> sivang: grab the source package and build it from source, it'll work fine; I did that this morning
[11:37] <sivang> Kamion: I just tried, but I guess I'm getting some other error:
[11:37] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/specs/home-user-backup $ bzr push sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:/home/sivan/public_html/home-user-backup
[11:37] <sivang> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sivan@mercury.linuxguru.net:/home/sivan/public_html/home-user-backup does not exist.
[11:37] <sivang> that's is not related to the package itself..
[11:41] <HiddenWolf> BenC: do you have any indication of what that FAT patent of microsoft means to us?
[11:42] <ogra_ibook> sivang, try adding a second / before home
[11:45] <mdke_> ah shit, friday the 13th has been chosen to switch to malone?
[11:45] <sivang> not working, oh well. I'll just manually rsync the branch there
[11:45] <sivang> mdke_: yep, 13:13 is the time :)
[11:45] <mdke_> crazy
[11:46] <sivang> kidding about the time :)
[11:53] <BenC> HiddenWolf: from l-k, it means nothing (it only covers long filenames living in the same namespace as short filenames)
[11:53] <BenC> IMO, it really only affects vfat, and also, it isn't actually a done deal yet
[11:54] <mdz> infinity: ping
[12:02] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, patents are never reallly done deals