[12:02] <HiddenWolf> Burgwork: they are major annoyances. :)
[12:04] <neuralis_> mdz: i think he's still asleep
[12:21] <mdz> neuralis: he'll see it when he wakes up
[12:53] <ogra_ibook> seb128, still here ? 
[12:54] <seb128> ogra_ibook: yep
[12:54] <seb128> why?
[12:54] <ogra_ibook> would it be possible to ship gdm.conf-custom in /usr/share7doc/gdm instead of /etc/gdm ? 
[12:54] <ogra_ibook> */usr/share/doc/gdm
[12:55] <seb128> no
[12:55] <ogra_ibook> with the current setup i have to overwrite or divert an empty file
[12:55] <seb128> what is wrong about it?
[12:55] <ogra_ibook> which is kind of silly and leaves me with the ompression i'd rather stay with sed'ing the theme entry in gdm.conf instead of using it
[12:56] <seb128> ?
[12:56] <ogra_ibook> its in the way if i want to customize gdm from another package
[12:56] <ogra_ibook> i.e. edubuntu-artwork
[12:57] <ogra_ibook> gdm now uses gdm.conf-custom to read the defaults, right ? 
[12:57] <seb128> no
[12:57] <seb128> the default is gdm.conf
[12:57] <ogra_ibook> huh ? 
[12:57] <seb128> -custom is user changes
[12:57] <ogra_ibook> i thought that was the new introduced feture ...
[12:58] <ogra_ibook> oh, then i misunderstood, so i still have to use gdm.conf to set the theme ? 
[12:58] <seb128> no
[12:58] <ogra_ibook> but ? 
[12:58] <seb128> hum, depending who is you
[12:58] <seb128> as an user no
[12:58] <seb128> as a packager yep
[12:58] <ogra_ibook> packager in this case ...
[12:58] <seb128> the default package settings are gdm.conf
[12:59] <ogra_ibook> i thought the -custom should enable easier cdd stuff 
[12:59] <seb128> gdm.conf-custom is what you change with gdmsetup by example
[12:59] <ogra_ibook> oki
[12:59] <ogra_ibook> i just saw an announcement a while ago ...
[12:59] <ogra_ibook> seems i misunderstood it ...
[12:59] <seb128> it said he would make easier package management
[12:59] <seb128> because gdm.conf is the package version stock
[12:59] <ogra_ibook> ahuman01, k :)
[12:59] <seb128> gdmsetup doesn't modify it
[01:00] <seb128> it used ot
[01:00] <seb128> to
[01:00] <seb128> so the conffile change whenever you run gdmsetup
[01:00] <seb128> with the new system your user config are to -custom
[01:00] <seb128> so you have no conffile on gdm.conf change due to local setting
[01:00] <seb128> so it doesn't break when a binary location changed by example and you choosed to keep your version
[01:00] <ogra_ibook> hmm, we should add something between these two files (dapper+1) for derivative customization
[01:01] <seb128> could be a good idea
[01:01] <ogra_ibook> it always feels bad to sed through gdm.conf
[01:01] <seb128> you could ship a -custom too
[01:02] <ogra_ibook> yes, but i'd have to divert yours from the gdm package ...
[01:02] <ogra_ibook> i dont gain much with it ... 
[01:02] <dholbach> good night developers!
[01:02] <seb128> right
[01:02] <seb128> 'nigh dholbach
[01:02] <ogra_ibook> optimal would be to just drop my file in a dir 
[01:02] <ogra_ibook> like the new gconf does
[01:02] <seb128> agreed
[01:03] <ogra_ibook> lets not forget about it for dapper+1 ;)
[01:03] <ogra_ibook> i'll stay with sed for now
[01:05] <seb128> yep
[01:09] <robertj> is php5-mcrypt omitted from debian for some legal issue or another?
[01:28] <sladen> mjg59: did bluez-firmware disappear?
[01:32] <Riddell> mdz: could you promote libavahi-qt3-dev to main?  new kdelibs just uploaded will need it
[01:44] <sladen> mjg59: or even bluez-bcm203x
[02:22] <netdur> p.u.o is broken... I noticed it few days ago!!!
[02:22] <rob1> is there a i686 gcc package for ubuntu?
[02:56] <mdz> Riddell: done; in the future, please check first if any additional dependencies need to be promoted at the same time
[03:11] <infinity> elmo: How often does autosync run?... I'm waiting on mysql-dfsg-5.0 from sid to re-sync...
[03:25] <desrt> hey.. what's the word on the repositories being messed up?
[03:28] <ritvik> mdke_, 
[03:28] <ritvik> sorry 
[03:28] <ritvik> ping mdz 
[03:30] <mdz> ritvik: hi, looks like we were disconnected again.  I was just calling back to wrap up and say goodbye
[03:30] <ritvik> yeah .. its good 
[03:31] <ritvik> thanks for calling . i'll wait for your reply then
[03:31] <lifeless> desrt: ?
[03:31] <mdz> ritvik: ok, cheers
[03:31] <desrt> lifeless; a few people have been asking me why 'apt-get update' is broken
[03:31] <ritvik> bye
[03:32] <lifeless> desrt: oh, that repo ;)
[03:32] <desrt> heh.
[04:40] <poimen> someone kwos how to enable multiverse in dapper?
[04:43] <Burgundavia> poimen, please use #ubuntu as this is not a support channel
[05:53] <DrZeus> Hi all.  I would like to ask if there is a way to check that a patch is integrated in the next release
[05:54] <DrZeus> because I had a problem with the acpi of my laptop, and found some kernel patches for fixing that(battery not detected), and I want to know if they are or could be included in the next release
[05:54] <womble> DrZeus: Check the changelog for mention of the patch?
[05:55] <DrZeus> dont know how to do that
[05:55] <DrZeus> this is the link where I found the patches.  Is a member of the linux on toshiba mailing list
[05:55] <DrZeus> http://www.minet.uni-jena.de/~ferdy/l10.html#sbs
[05:59] <DrZeus> how do I check that log?
[06:02] <DrZeus> how can I check that the patch is included?
[06:03] <womble> DrZeus: See http://packages.ubuntu.com/<packagename>, select the distribution you want to look at, and down the bottom there's a 'changelog' link.  That'll take you to the changelog for the package.  For the kernel, you probably want linux-image-2.6.15-11-386 for the package name.
[06:05] <DrZeus>  womble: it tells to view the "debian changelog".  Is that the one I have to see?
[06:06] <womble> DrZeus: Yep
[06:06] <DrZeus> ok
[06:07] <DrZeus> it is not found in the page
[06:10] <infinity> The acpi-sbs stuff isn't included in our kernel, no.  And according to that page, it doesn't apply / won't work on kernels > 2.6.13 (and we're using 2.6.15 right now)
[06:15] <DrZeus> its curious; why is not included, or listed in any sort of "official" patches repository, i dont know
[06:15] <DrZeus> the page doesnt says it wont work, it keeps the benefit of the doubt; but thats not enough for a release, I understand
[06:22] <infinity> Of course, if an updated DSTS is what's really needed for stuff to be a bit happier, you can follow their DSTS instrustions, toss the result in /etc/mkinitramfs/DSDT.aml, "update-initramfs -u" and reboot.
[06:23] <infinity> I suspect the kernel patches may be required, though, and if you find that's the case, please file an enhancement bug on the "linux" package.
[06:24] <mjg59> There's already a bug on it
[06:25] <infinity> Then never mind. :)
[06:41] <zakame> hi devs
[06:42] <LaserJock> hi zakame 
[08:10] <ajmitch> sigh
[08:10] <ajmitch> mine was broken, but works now
[08:11] <ajmitch> such a shame
[08:13] <infinity> Yeah.  If anything breaks again, please save me a copy.  It's easy to dig through a broken one and see why it broke, next to impossible to resolve after the fact with anecdotal reports like "well, it didn't boot.  I regenerated the initramfs.  Now it boots."
[08:13] <infinity> :/
[08:13] <Keybuk> infinity: did you see that Malone bug, btw?
[08:15] <Mez> god damn - this whols **** about the conflicts between debian and ubuntu ****es me off
[08:15] <infinity> Keybuk: #?
[08:16] <Keybuk> infinity: 6696
[08:16] <infinity> Keybuk: The only recent Malone bug I've had assigned to me was something nvidiaish.
[08:16] <Keybuk> yeah I'm not sure if I can even assign bugs to you
[08:16] <infinity> Don't see why not..
[08:17] <Keybuk> I can't find anything like "Assign Bug" in Malone
[08:18] <Mithrandir> in the bug overview, click on the bug in the "fix requested in" column.  There you can reassign.
[08:18] <Mithrandir> it's a really unfortunate UI, very non-discoverable.
[08:19] <infinity> Yeah, you described it, and I still can't find it.
[08:20] <infinity> Keybuk: Well, "/dev/.initramfs" is new, I suppose, but not the idea of using /dev to save state over the remount.
[08:20] <Keybuk> right
[08:20] <infinity> Keybuk: Anyhow, I can just test that I have the file before I play with it.  No big deal.
[08:20] <Keybuk> but after init-bottom there is no /dev
[08:21] <infinity> It's all just a hack until usplash grows internal state anyway.
[08:22] <infinity> Of course, log_end_msg will fail (well, "not work", rather) either way in that case, since it can't send anything to the usplash fifo either.
[08:23] <Keybuk> right
[08:24] <infinity> OTOH, initramfs does still create /dev, so it may make sense for us to be the ones that move it too.
[08:25] <infinity> Hrm, no, I see why that would suck, if there was no udev.
[08:25] <Keybuk> maybe, though it prevents the udev script from being able to bail out
[08:25] <infinity> Then we'd be moving a (nearly empty) /dev to the root.
[08:40] <mdke_> infinity, hi, the usual nudge
[08:40] <infinity> :)
[08:46] <mjg59> Oh, dev meeting, hnngh.
[08:51] <dholbach> good morning
[08:51] <ajmitch> morning dholbach 
[08:51] <dholbach> ajmitch: hey andrew
[08:52] <pitti> hi dholbach 
[08:53] <dholbach> pitti: hey martin
[08:53] <mdke_> infinity, you have a T43 right? does it boot with the -11 kernel? mine stops at "detecting and activating hardware"
[08:54] <infinity> mdke_: Mine boots fine.  I have other problems (lack of frequency scaling), but it more or less works.
[08:54] <mdke_> infinity, ok maybe slightly different hardware, or mine just being a pain then
[08:55] <ogra_ibook> infinity, is there a chance that we see my noblock patch in initramfs before flight3 ?
[08:55] <Kamion> T-5mins to distro team meeting
[08:55] <infinity> ogra_ibook: There's a chance if you pester me about it right after the meeting.
[08:56] <ogra_ibook> infinity, i'd be fine fixing it and preparing it for you if you tell me what you want :)
[08:56] <Keybuk> mdke_: stops, or pauses for 3 minutes?
[08:57] <mdke_> Keybuk, i'm not sure I ever left it for 3 minutes. will try that today
[08:57] <infinity> mdke_: You can boot into an older kernel just fine, right?
[08:57] <mdke_> yes
[08:57] <mdke_> i have -9
[08:57] <infinity> mdke_: If so, can you copy your initrd-2.6.15-11-686 (or whatever) somewhere, so I can have a look at it and see if it's broken?
[08:58] <mdz> dev meeting in 2 minutes
[08:58] <infinity> mdke_: I'm trying desperately to find broken initramfs's. :)
[08:58] <Mez> ooh :D dev meeting :D
[08:58] <mdke_> infinity, alright
[08:58] <mdke> Keybuk, if it is pausing, shall I cc you to the bug?
[08:59] <pitti> mdz: postgresql-8.0 breezy-updates uploaded and ready for your electronic thumb :)
[08:59] <Keybuk> mdke: yeah, though either way it's a kernel bug
[08:59] <mdke> right
[08:59] <khermans> can someone tell me how to compile a static binary with all the dependencies inclusive?  I would be doing this with ./configure
[09:00] <pitti> ogra, ogra_ibook: ping
[09:00] <Keybuk> khermans: --enable-static ?
[09:00] <ogra_ibook> pitti, pong
[09:00] <khermans> Keybuk, yeah i tried but no luck
[09:00] <khermans> Keybuk, ther eis also enable-shared
[09:00] <pitti> ogra_ibook: ok, I didn't see your ack in #u-meeting :)
[09:01] <Keybuk> khermans: --disable-shared --enable-static ?
[09:01] <Keybuk> something like that
[09:27] <pitti> seb128, Diziet: is there a bug report about the epy issue somewhere?
[09:27] <pitti> seb128: running commands in downloaded .desktop files
[09:28] <pitti> ogra_ibook: but autostart on CDs is (a) deactivated by default and (b) much less dangerous than automatically executing downloaded .desktop files
[09:29] <ogra_ibook> yes, i only happen to remember the discussion came up with it 
[09:29] <ogra_ibook> i dont say they are related :)
[09:29] <seb128> pitti: ?
[09:30] <seb128> pitti: there is nothing epiphany specific, .desktop are app launchers for GNOME
[09:30] <seb128> ie: GNOME display the icon/name defined by the .desktop and run the command specified by it
[09:30] <ogra_ibook> but we probably should restrict their execution from a browser
[09:30] <pitti> yes, the browser should not automatically execute these
[09:31] <seb128> nothing specific with a browser
[09:32] <seb128> you download them and double click from nautilus that's the same
[09:32] <pitti> I'll take a look at this after the meeting
[09:32] <pitti> seb128: it sounded as if clicking onto a .desktop link in the browser would already execute it
[09:32] <ogra_ibook> yes, to me too
[09:32] <seb128> what are you talking about
[09:32] <seb128> ?
[09:32] <seb128> is that a list discussion I didn't read?
[09:33] <seb128> what sounded like that?
[09:34] <pitti> seb128: you did :)
[09:34] <ogra_ibook> seb128, iwj sounded like it would be executable directly
[09:34] <seb128> anyway, is there a difference with "open directly" and "download and have to double click on it"?
[09:34] <ogra_ibook> yes
[09:34] <pitti> yes
[09:34] <pitti> since you can trick users to automatically be redirected to a .desktop file
[09:34] <seb128> anyway you can trick and user
[09:34] <pitti> if merely visiting http://foo/bar.desktop will execute the file, that's scary
[09:34] <seb128> read the mail I pointed on -meeting
[09:35] <seb128> the icon looks like a .doc
[09:35] <seb128> the name looks like a document
[09:35] <seb128> and it does a tricky command
[09:35] <seb128> so do use the browser option to automatically open attachements you click on
[09:36] <seb128> my browser is configured to open the download dialog
[09:36] <pitti> seb128: if it spawns the download dialog, that's fine
[09:37] <seb128> that's an user option
[09:37] <seb128> if you remove the option some people will scream at you :p
[09:37] <seb128> s/scream/yell rather :)
[09:38] <Kamion> seb128: that should be controlled by the executable bit
[09:38] <Kamion> if the .desktop file isn't executable, double-clicking it shouldn't execute it
[09:38] <Kamion> (imho)
[09:38] <seb128> a .desktop is not executable
[09:38] <Kamion> maybe it should be
[09:38] <seb128> a .desktop is a launcher
[09:39] <Kamion> it is having the effect of interpreting it and executing it
[09:39] <seb128> you don't want a confirmation when clicking on a launcher from your panel by example
[09:39] <Kamion> I don't care what you call it
[09:39] <Burgundavia> part of this is also that Nautilus has a crap UI for .desktop files. It hides the extension by default
[09:39] <pitti> hm, executable bit could do the trick, yes
[09:39] <pitti> so we would ship our deskto files in .debs executable, and the browser would save them as non-exec
[09:40] <seb128> pitti: .desktop are -x
[09:40] <ogra_ibook> but the command inside will still be executed, even with -x
[09:40] <pitti> yes, I know, that's the problem :)
[09:41] <seb128> I agree that's an issue
[09:41] <seb128> but that's a GNOME issue, not an epy one
[09:41] <pitti> at least it's not half as scary as I initially thought 
[09:42] <pitti> so it's just about trojans, not automatically executing stuff with a malicious URL
[09:42] <mjg59> ogra_ibook: ?
[09:43] <ogra_ibook> mjg59, i did a patch for hoarys hal to be able to execute dmidecode to get the bios information 
[09:43] <pitti> well, that used a suid root helper
[09:43] <ogra_ibook> should be similar to what you want
[09:43] <mjg59> ogra_ibook: Oh, in terms of running code as root?
[09:43] <ogra_ibook> yup
[09:43] <mjg59> Basically, but upstream wants it on dbus
[09:43] <pitti> it should get a bit different design
[09:44] <ogra_ibook> mjg59, ah, ok, mine didnt involve dbus
[09:44] <pitti> mjg59: AIUI hald should fork right at the start, and the main process drops privs, and the other stays root and only accepts dbus messages from the main hald and executes stuff
[09:45] <mjg59> pitti: That would work, or the alternative is to have an entirely separate piece of code to do that (possibly less to go wrong)
[09:45] <mjg59> mvo: Any idea why g-p-m is giving me dialog boxes rather than notification bubbles?
[09:45] <pitti> well, yes; however, startup is more complicated then
[09:45] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: what's the nfs timeout issue?
[09:46] <jdub> hrm, google doesn't seem to index morgue.u.c
[09:46] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, the issue we already had in breezy, nfs / mounts time out for the first attempt
[09:47] <mvo> mjg59: ? dialog boxes? like in "gtk dialog boxes"?
[09:47] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, the second works fine, as well as a normal (non /) nfs mount does
[09:47] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: have you tried mounting with -o nolock?
[09:47] <ogra_ibook> not yet 
[09:47] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: since we don't run the portmapper by default
[09:47] <mjg59> mvo: Yes
[09:47] <Kamion> thus nfs can't get at lockd
[09:47] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, we do with ltsp
[09:47] <mjg59> mvo: I get a dialog saying "AC power has been unplugged" with an "OK" button
[09:47] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: ah
[09:47] <Kamion> jdub: pretty irrelevant considering how out-of-date morgue.u.c is
[09:47] <ogra_ibook> thats not the issue ... mdz initially thought its a klibc issue in initramfs
[09:48] <seb128> pitti: in fact I've just tried, epiphany displays .desktop inline like a text file
[09:48] <ogra_ibook> Kaloz, i think i'll look deeper in there ... since it only happens from initramfs the cause is likely to be in there
[09:48] <mdz> pitti: approved
[09:48] <pitti> seb128: and doesn't execute it?
[09:48] <pitti> mdz: yay, thanks
[09:48] <mvo> mjg59: sounds like g-p-m is build without libnotify support and falls back to that. maybe a bug in my upload, I can check after the meeting
[09:48] <ogra_ibook> s/Kaloz/Kamion
[09:49] <seb128> pitti: no, it display it inline as a text file
[09:49] <jdub> Kamion: it covered what i was looking for, but turns out i have a backup of what i needed anyway 8)
[09:49] <pitti> seb128: hm, that's even better IMHO
[09:49] <Kamion> jdub: fair enough :)
[09:49] <seb128> pitti: http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/, click on gedit.desktop
[09:49] <mjg59> mvo: Thanks
[09:50] <pitti> seb128: right, in ffox too; *phew*, thanks :)
[09:52] <seb128> pitti: np
[09:52] <Keybuk> http://opensourceversus.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=447&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
[09:52] <Keybuk> ^ heh
[09:52] <pitti> seb128: I think requiring .desktop files to be executable would still be an improvement, though
[09:52] <Burgundavia> Keybuk, how to make KDE and GNOME look identical
[09:53] <seb128> pitti: was difference would that make?
[09:53] <Burgundavia> pitti, upstream has done a lot of work on gobby since UBZ
[09:53] <pitti> seb128: you could avoid hard-to-see trojan horses
[09:54] <Keybuk> btw, everyone saw yesterday's stuff about FAT, right?
[09:54] <pitti> seb128: since nautilus hides the .desktop extension by default
[09:54] <pitti> Keybuk: it was about VFAT, not FAT :)
[09:54] <Burgundavia> seb128, pitti can we drop that hiding?
[09:54] <seb128> pitti: and it doesn't use the real filename neither
[09:54] <seb128> Burgundavia: no
[09:54] <mjg59> It's not even about VFAT
[09:54] <Burgundavia> seb128, why not?
[09:54] <mjg59> It's about long file names
[09:54] <pitti> mjg59: isn't that what vfat is about?
[09:55] <seb128> Burgundavia: you don't want to have all your launcher on the desktop having .desktop do you?
[09:55] <mjg59> pitti: I was under the impression that vfat included FAT32
[09:55] <Keybuk> pitti: and FAT32
[09:55] <Burgundavia> seb128, the user is almost never going to actually be exposed to a .desktop through nautilus
[09:55] <pitti> mjg59: could be, I'm not sure about the terminology
[09:55] <seb128> Burgundavia: dnd a menu item to the desktop ...
[09:55] <Keybuk> (it's also a US patent, and we're safely tucked away in the EU)
[09:55] <Burgundavia> seb128, how does showing the extension hurt that?
[09:56] <pitti> any way, AFAIUI it's not about the low-level file system itself, just about the rock-ridge-like mapping of long filenames to short ones
[09:56] <ogra_ibook> Burgundavia, its pretty ugly ...
[09:56] <seb128> Burgundavia: I've a nice "gedit" icon to start gedit on my desktop, I don't want it named "gedit.desktop", that's just ugly
[09:56] <Burgundavia> ogra_ibook, better than having a security problem
[09:56] <Keybuk> pitti: indeed, the filesystem itself is over 30 years old, so the newly issued patent would expire immediately :)
[09:56] <ogra_ibook> Burgundavia, i dont really see the security problem ...
[09:56] <seb128> people will not know what .desktop is and click on it anyway
[09:56] <pitti> Burgundavia: I'd rather prefer  desktop files to be executable, then you could hide the extension as before
[09:57] <seb128> you are not going to fix it that way
[09:57] <pitti> Burgundavia: and since it is kind of a script, it is interpreted (executed) in some way
[09:57] <ogra_ibook> Burgundavia, as long as your browser doesnt silently download and execute it...
[09:57] <Burgundavia> pitti, true
[09:57] <Kamion> Burgundavia: it wouldn't be a security problem if there were a way to have a .desktop file that was marked as having come from somewhere insecure (e.g. executable bit)
[09:58] <Kamion> obviously it's not the same as SELinux-like MAC, but it's what we have
[09:59] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: most users I've seen drag icons from the menu and panel onto their desktop
[09:59] <Keybuk> (until you teach them about panel launchers)
[09:59] <Keybuk> because that's what they do on Windows
[10:00] <Keybuk> a ".desktop" extension would confuse them, and make them thing it wasn't "the application icon"
[10:00] <Keybuk> though .desktop files should *so* be +x to work though
[10:00] <Burgundavia> Keybuk, true, I retract my request
[10:01] <Burgundavia> Keybuk, +x means an upload for every application that includes a .desktop file though, no?
[10:01] <pitti> sadly yes
[10:01] <seb128> +x means to change every user already created .desktop too
[10:01] <pitti> which is harder
[10:02] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: moo.
[10:02] <Keybuk> better than the current situation, where a user can be given a .desktop file that looks like a text file, but does bad things
[10:02] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: #ubuntu-boot ?
[10:02] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: sure
[10:06] <ajmitch> doko: zope 3.2 & 2.9 before UVF? I see that 2.9 needs python 2.4, which will affect quite a few products
[10:07] <infinity> ajmitch: zope2.x has gone completely to universe, so you guys are free to break it however you want.
[10:07] <infinity> ajmitch: THough I'm not sure if you WANT to. :)
[10:13] <doko> ajmitch: why is the python version problematic?
[10:13] <doko> it should not
[10:18] <Kamion> elmo: could you update germinate on jackass, please? It's too old to understand %sourcepkg syntax in seeds.
[10:19] <ajmitch> doko: just some zope products that depends on python 2.3 libs, not too many thankfully
[10:20] <ajmitch> eg zope-cmfplone has a dep on python2.3-imaging
[10:21] <mdke> dholbach, can you do another ubuntu-docs upload to dapper sometime, when you're not busy
[10:22] <dholbach> mdke: sure
[10:22] <mdke> great thanks
[10:22] <dholbach> mdke: now that we sorted out the problems, it's fairly easy - so if you have important/big changes feel free to ping me and i'll do it asap
[10:22] <mdke> :)
[10:22] <dholbach> mdke: but i'll do it once a week anyways
[10:22] <mdke> rockin
[10:23] <mdke> i've put in a short FF homepage this morning, to replace the old long one
[10:23] <mdke> needs work, but i'd like to get it in for people to review
[10:24] <dholbach> mdke: you could do with another call for testers/helpers on the fridge
[10:24] <mdke> we'll put it in the next newsletter :)
[10:24] <dholbach> let me do an update before ;)
[10:24] <dholbach> cool
[10:25] <mdke> in any case, if the BrowserDefaults spec happens, it won't be relevant, but this is just in case that spec doesn't happen
[10:50] <Keybuk> On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 07:36:05PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
[10:51] <Keybuk> > Yeah, I "forgot" to start that particular flame-war.
[10:51] <Keybuk> *giggle*
[11:09] <dholbach> mdke: done
[11:11] <dholbach> mdke: arg, uploaded it to REVU
[11:11] <ogra_ibook> lol
[11:12] <ajmitch> heh
[11:12] <ogra_ibook> need reviewers ? 
[11:12] <ajmitch> whoops :)
[11:12] <dholbach> ogra_ibook: no, i think other people need them more urgently than ubuntu-docs does
[11:12] <ogra_ibook> heh
[11:20] <Kamion> oops, well that was a fun bug
[11:21] <Kamion> slight mistake in a cdimage script caused it to attempt to copy my entire home directory on little into the CD image it was creating
[11:21] <Kamion> which includes stuff like backups of old CD images, unpacked DVD images, that sort of thing
[11:21] <hunger> Kamion: You shouldn't waste space on the cdimages with your backups:-)
[11:22] <Kamion> not the images I'm creating and expecting people to burn, no
[11:22] <ogra_ibook> hmm, only backups ...
[11:23] <ogra_ibook> your personal mail and gpg key would rather be intresting to distribute on an iso :)
[11:23] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: funnily enough, I don't keep those on little
[11:23] <ogra_ibook> oh, i read s/on/to
[11:23] <ogra_ibook> :)
[11:24] <Kamion> haven't done an Ubuntu CD image build on a machine with my GPG key since Sounder CD 1
[11:24] <Keybuk> Kamion: hmm, I thought we agreed not to ship porn on our CDs anymore?
[11:24] <Kamion> although there is *a* GPG key on little for Release.gpg
[11:24] <Kamion> Keybuk: I'm not volunteering to tell Mark
[11:32] <\sh> infinity / lamont-away : can you please give back kdebase, thx :)
[11:49] <Riddell> infinity, lamont-away: kdebase and kdenetwork give back please
[11:56] <infinity> Riddell: Done.
[11:57] <mvo> what would be a good tooltip for "Get Help Online..."? "Connect to the ubuntu webservice to get online help"?
[11:59] <hunger> mvo: Why not write website?
[11:59] <Kamion> "Connect to Launchpad for online help" (saves having to rebrand for Kubuntu, Edubuntu)?
[11:59] <Kamion> or "to the Launchpad website"
[11:59] <hunger> mvo: People are way more likly to know that than webservice.
[12:00] <hunger> Kamion: I'd keep the "website" to emphesize that this is on a remote computer.
[12:00] <ogra> i'd take "get online help ..."
[12:00] <mvo> "Connect to the Launchpad website for online help" <- good?
[12:00] <ogra> i find it to long
[12:01] <Kamion> for a tooltip?
[12:01] <seb128> it's something display to the bar on the bottom of the app
[12:01] <seb128> like for every other menu item
[12:01] <seb128> not a mouseover tooltip
[12:01] <mvo> tooltip for "Translate This Application" -> "Connect to the Launchpad website to translate this application" ?
[12:01] <vuntz_> will people know what is Launchpad?N
[12:01] <ogra> oh, yes, for the tooltip its fine ...
[12:01] <mvo> "Connect to the Launchpad website to help translating this application" ?
[12:02] <ogra> hunger, so contribute to it to make it better ;)
[12:02] <seb128> vuntz_: "Launchpad website" ... seems clear it's a website :)
[12:02] <vuntz_> seb128: right, but I don't trust a website I don't know...
[12:02] <seb128> vuntz_: dunno if that would be confusing to people to have the Launchpad name
[12:03] <seb128> vuntz_: we can't put a complete description of what launchpad is in a tooltip :)
[12:03] <vuntz_> I agree :-)
[12:03] <mvo> might be good to have the launchpad name, to make it a stronger brand 
[12:03] <vuntz_> it's just that there should be some document explaning what launchpad is
[12:03] <vuntz_> in ubuntu-docs
[12:04] <dholbach> vuntz_: sounds good
[12:04] <dholbach> maybe after the LPI paragraph
[12:04] <vuntz_> don't ask me to write it :-)
[12:04] <mvo> ok, if noone complains then its "Connect to the Launchpad website to help translating this application"
[12:05] <Kamion> grammar: "help translate"
[12:05] <Kamion> or "help to translate"
[12:05] <mvo> does "to help to translate" sound right? two "to" so close?
[12:06] <Kamion> either "to help translate" or "to help to translate" is fine; the former is perhaps slightly more colloquial / less forced
[12:06] <seb128> vuntz|miam: speaking about writting ... UDN? :)
[12:07] <Kamion> or "to help with translating", although I don't really like that as much
[12:07] <mvo> I will pick "to help translate" then I guess
[12:11] <ogra> dapper-live-i386.iso  12-Jan-2006 01:05  9.9M  ... wow, i didnt know squashfs would gain us *this* much
[12:11] <ogra> :)
[12:11] <\sh> lol
[12:11] <Kamion> edubuntu?
[12:12] <ogra> Kamion, yup, tonights build
[12:12] <Nafallo> haha :-)
[12:12] <Kamion> I think that predates squashfs
[12:12] <ogra> i thought its already in ...
[12:13] <Kamion> yeah, but 20060111 had the same problem
[12:13] <ogra> ah
[12:13] <Kamion> I think you've just got no working livefs build
[12:13] <ogra> oh, i wasnt referring to the error with squashfs, just joking ...
[12:13] <Kamion> or, hmm
[12:14] <Kamion> yeah, your build dates from 20060102
[12:14] <ogra> ah
[12:14] <ogra> then most likely edubuntu-desktop was broken at this time ...
[12:15] <Kamion> exactly why it didn't add the cloop is a good question
[12:16] <Kamion> obviously there's no point debugging the 20060102 livefs build, but see http://terranova.buildd/~buildd/LiveCD/dapper/edubuntu/latest/ (accessible from chinstrap) for the livefs build log
[12:16] <Kamion> that's for i386, amd64 and powerpc are on king and royal respectively instead of terranova
[12:17] <Kamion> dpkg: error processing edubuntu-artwork (--configure):
[12:17] <Kamion>  subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1
[12:17] <Kamion> I suspect your debconfiscation is broken
[12:17] <ogra> meh
[12:17] <ogra> worked fine on all test setups i had ...
[12:18] <Kamion> why do you do db_get in config? it's not a reason for it to fail, but it's pointless
[12:18] <Kamion> remove the db_capb; you don't do anything on backup anyway
[12:18] <ogra> oki
[12:18] <Kamion> (and just do db_go || true)
[12:19] <ogra> but why doesnt it fail on tests here ... weird
[12:19] <Kamion> (gdmflexiserver:26880): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:
[12:19] <Kamion> I think that's the error
[12:19] <ogra> ahhh
[12:19] <ogra> ok
[12:20] <ogra> indeed i didnt test without X
[12:20] <ogra> will add a check ...
[12:20] <Kamion> instead of checking, can gdmflexiserver be made to work without a display?
[12:21] <Kamion> since we do want to enable the theme, we just don't want to need a display to do so
[12:21] <ogra> good question... seb128 ?
[12:21] <Kamion>           gdmflexiserver --command="UPDATE_CONFIG greeter/GraphicalTheme"
[12:21] <ogra> the command isnt needed if gdm isnt running ...
[12:21] <seb128> what is the question about?
[12:21] <ogra> its in fact only needed for "switch user" 
[12:22] <ogra> seb128, making gdmflexiserver --command run without DISPLAY being set
[12:22] <Kamion> ogra: oh, right
[12:22] <Kamion> seb128: edubuntu-artwork postinst
[12:23] <ogra> if you end your session the greeter is restarted anyway ... i'll just check for DISPLAY being non zero and it should be fine ...
[12:23] <seb128> right, it should not require xorg
[12:23] <Kamion> ogra: sounds fair enough then, yes
[12:23] <seb128> x running I mean
[12:23] <Kamion> ogra: ping infinity for a livefs rebuild once you're done; if he's not around, ping me
[12:23] <ogra_ibook> oki
[12:26] <Kamion> ah, ok, I see why the cloop went missing anyway, fixing
[12:26] <Kamion> rather overenthusiastic cleanup after failed fetch of the livefs kernel output (which wasn't delivered until a week or so ago)
[12:29] <janimo> elmo, please sync/override xfce4-terminal, thanks
[12:31] <Kamion> d'oh, little's update to breezy killed report.html
[12:31] <Kamion> ImportError: libapt-pkg-libc6.3-5.so.3.9: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[12:43] <mvo> Keybuk: did I tell you already that bzrk really rocks?
[12:44] <\sh> mvo: everyone knows :)
[12:44] <mvo> :)
[12:52] <ogra_ibook> it urgently needs a cache for websources
[12:54] <Mithrandir> is there any gui tool to edit fstab and mount partitions?
[12:54] <\sh> ogra_ibook: we actually need hct asap :) in the moment I'm doing Mhct work
[12:57] <ogra_ibook> Mithrandir, the disk manager app should be able to do it
[01:00] <Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: thanks
[01:00] <pitti> Mithrandir: disk manager is pretty broken; pysdm is much better IMHO
[01:00] <pitti> ogra_ibook: did you ever manage to alter your fstab with disk manager?
[01:00] <pitti> I didn't
[01:00] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's a user who asks "how do I access my fat32 partitions from the live cd"
[01:00] <ogra_ibook> i never tried
[01:00] <ogra_ibook> but its supposed to do it
[01:00] <pitti> Mithrandir: mounting it for the current session works well with disk manager
[01:01] <pitti> Mithrandir: it just doesn't alter fstab
[01:01] <DocTomoe> There might be a problem in dapper, concerning glibc6 and konqueror
[01:02] <fabbione> DocTomoe: such as?
[01:02] <DocTomoe> jam
[01:02] <fabbione> jam?
[01:03] <Kamion> pitti: locale-gen doesn't do anything if /etc/locale.gen doesn't exist, which it doesn't in a freshly debootstrapped chroot. Is this intentional?
[01:03] <Kamion> I'd like to be able to do 'sudo debootstrap breezy /space/breezy; sudo chroot /space/breezy locale-gen en_GB.UTF-8'
[01:03] <pitti> Kamion: actually not; /etc/locale.gen is not supposed to exist any more
[01:03] <Kamion> yeah, I thought it seemed odd
[01:03] <ogra_ibook> fabbione, marmelade ...
[01:04] <Kamion> pitti: oh, er
[01:04] <pitti> Kamion: what does /var/lib/locales/supported.d contain?
[01:04] <Kamion> pitti: sorry, I'm very stupid indeed, I'm debootstrapping *breezy*
[01:04] <fabbione> ogra_ibook: i know what jam is.. i don't see the relation between libc6 konqueror and jam
[01:04] <pitti> oh, heh, right
[01:04] <DocTomoe> jam = just a minute ... I just have written the problem to raphink in #kubuntu. basically, konqueror somehow does not like the current glibc
[01:04] <ogra_ibook> fabbione, me neither :)
[01:06] <raphink> hmmm
[01:06] <raphink> DocTomoe: the thing is that I see no glibc nor konqueror in the latest updates 
[01:06] <raphink> there is kdelibs-data though
[01:06] <raphink> does it happen with other programs than just konqueror DocTomoe ?
[01:07] <DocTomoe> raphink: none that I know of.
[01:07] <Kamion> DocTomoe: why do you believe that it's related to glibc? presumably there's some error message that makes you believe that
[01:07] <raphink> [2006-01-12 13:03]  <DocTomoe> martin@haguchan:~/.kde/share/apps/konqueror$ konqueror
[01:08] <raphink> [2006-01-12 13:03]  <DocTomoe> *** glibc detected *** corrupted double-linked list: 0x4033d278 ***
[01:08] <raphink> Kamion: that's what makes him believe so ;)
[01:08] <Kamion> that's glibc detecting an error in the application
[01:08] <DocTomoe> Kamion: konqueror says "*** glibc detected *** corrupted double-linked list: 0x4033d278 ***", then dies
[01:08] <Kamion> it's not konqueror not liking glibc, it's glibc saying konqueror (or one of the libraries it uses) has a memory allocation bug
[01:08] <raphink> konqueror wasn't upgraded lately though
[01:08] <fabbione> DocTomoe: that's a bug in konqueror
[01:08] <DocTomoe> Kamion: I am no developer ... However, I thought this is glibc
[01:08] <shawarma> On which package do I report bugs in drivers in the kernel images in Dapper? The only package beginning with linux-image is linux-image-k7 in the Bugzilla web interface.
[01:09] <Kamion> DocTomoe: I am, and it's not :-)
[01:09] <fabbione> shawarma: linux
[01:09] <ogra_ibook> shawarma, drop -image
[01:09] <raphink> oh yes it was
[01:09] <Kamion> how did linux-image-k7 creep in again? I deleted that component
[01:09] <shawarma> fabbione, ogra_ibook: Great. Thanks.
[01:09] <fabbione> shawarma: no problem. you own me another 5lt of beer :)
[01:10] <Kamion> I'll not delete it again now because I think the script to convert component assignments to Malone has already been run
[01:10] <fabbione> shawarma: pretty good btw..
[01:10] <shawarma> fabbione: LOL.
[01:10] <DocTomoe> maybe that last bit of info I gave on #kubuntu is helpful ... I deleted ~/.kde/share/apps/konqueror/*history* and konqueror seemes to work nicely for about 30 minutes.
[01:10] <shawarma> fabbione: Great. I haven't actually tasted that one.
[01:10] <fabbione> shawarma: i did :P
[01:10] <raphink> DocTomoe: what exactly do you do to make it crash?
[01:12] <DocTomoe> raphink: I just entered a domain name in the adress bar. the first character appears, then it freezes for about 3 seconds, then it quietly dies (even w/o KDEs Crash assistant)
[01:12] <raphink> ok
[01:12] <DocTomoe> I think after the first character it performes a search in its history file that somehow screwes up because of some memory leak or something
[01:13] <DocTomoe> as stated above, I am no developer :)
[01:13] <raphink> can't reproduce here
[01:14] <raphink> could you report the bug please DocTomoe ?
[01:14] <DocTomoe> raphink: to what of the 7 million existing bugzillas out there? ;)
[01:15] <DocTomoe> boy, I really have to do some work on my english grammar -_-
[01:15] <raphink> DocTomoe: I know no project that has no bug
[01:15] <raphink> and a distro is not declared stable when it has no bugs anymore
[01:15] <raphink> but reporting bugs helps tracking them down
[01:15] <DocTomoe> raphink: thats not exactly what I meant. ubuntu has a bugzilla and launchpad. on which one should I file the bug report?
[01:16] <lifeless> malone
[01:16] <raphink> oh ok
[01:16] <lifeless> bugzilla is about to shut down
[01:16] <raphink> :)
[01:16] <raphink> and malone looks nicer :)
[01:17] <DocTomoe> you wouldnt happen to have the url handy, would you?
[01:17] <ogra_ibook> launchpad.net
[01:17] <raphink> http://launchpad.net/malone
[01:18] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug is probably more direct
[01:22] <DocTomoe> ok, done. thanks for your support
[01:22] <DocTomoe> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-konqueror-shortcuts/+bug/6706
[01:22] <\sh> DocTomoe: what is it about?
[01:22] <DocTomoe> \sh: seems like a memory problem in dappers konqueror or something
[01:22] <\sh> bugs for my invention needs to have my attention :)
[01:22] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, hmm, assumingly the broken edubuntu-artwork is on the install images as well ... i guess i'll need a new build there as well ...
[01:23] <raphink> hmm
[01:23] <\sh> DocTomoe: oh well..then it's the wrong source package :)
[01:23] <raphink> why did you report it against kubuntu-konqueror-shortcuts DocTomoe ?
[01:23] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: yeah, will do once it's built
[01:23] <\sh> DocTomoe: it should be kdebase
[01:24] <raphink> yep
[01:24] <\sh> chaging to kdebase
[01:24] <raphink> :)
[01:24] <DocTomoe> raphink: thats the package malone suggested
[01:25] <raphink> hmmm ok
[01:25] <\sh> DocTomoe: to find a source package of a binary package :) apt-cache showsrc konqueror e.g.
[01:25] <raphink> but it's kdebase though ;)
[01:26] <\sh> therefore launchpad must search the binary package names as well and find out which source package it is
[01:26] <\sh> anyways...changed to the correct source package and assigned to the kubuntu team :) 
[01:26] <\sh> DocTomoe: thx for the report :)
[01:35] <Lathiat> daniels: ngghhh my alps touchpad is going at the speed of a snail again :(
[01:36] <Treenaks> daniels: re-poke, I haven't received your ATi thing yet ;)
[01:45] <ogra> Treenaks, ati thing ? 
[01:46] <Treenaks> ogra: yeah, a register dumper; my HP laptop works with flgrx but not with ati
[01:47] <Treenaks> ogra: daniels and mjg59 said they wanted to diff the output to see what's going wrong
[01:47] <ogra> where did you get fglrx ? 
[01:47] <Treenaks> ogra: apt
[01:48] <ogra> i'd love to see my ati card in the ibook on it ... but there is no fglrx in dapper yet 
[01:48] <Treenaks> ogra: oh? I have working X _and_ dapper on my laptop
[01:48] <Treenaks> ogra: maybe because it's ppc?
[01:48] <ogra> hmm
[01:48] <ogra> i remeber having seen it before ... 
[01:49] <ogra> (on ppc) 
[01:49] <infinity> There's never been fglrx on powerpc.
[01:49] <Treenaks> ogra: I'm having weird problems that look like sync problems with the 'ati' driver; fglrx works fine on the same resolution
[01:49] <ogra> infinity, ah, thanks 
[01:49] <infinity> (And there probably never will be)
[01:50] <ogra> yes 
[01:50] <ogra> very unlikely since ppc for home users will die ...
[01:51] <ogra> infinity, you could trigger a livefs build for edubuntu as soon as you have time for it btw, edubuntu-artwork is there now 
[01:51] <ogra> Kamion, do i have to poke you separately for install images ? 
[01:52] <infinity> When I'm done with the ubuntu builds, I'll trigger edubuntu, but I won't wait around to see if they succeed.  It's 8 minutes to midnight here.
[01:52] <ogra> infinity, fine with me ...
[01:52] <ogra> thanks 
[01:53] <infinity> ogra: Note that these images won't rsync from the last ones (switching from cloop to squashfs), so you're in for a big download.
[01:53] <ogra> oki
[01:54] <ogra> the last working ones were around flight2 anyway ... 
[01:55] <Treenaks> cool, a Dutch library has 'Ubuntu CDs' in their catalog, and when you go there, they just give you a fresh set of Breezy discs :)
[01:55] <ogra> wow
[01:55] <Treenaks> ogra: instead of charging you for it, and asking them back, that is :)
[01:55] <ogra> cool
[02:01] <pitti> ANNOUNCE: malone/launchpad discussion meeting in #launchpad now
[02:01] <Kamion> infinity: don't trigger edubuntu please
[02:02] <ogra> still something missing ? 
[02:02] <Kamion> ogra: debootstrap's broken at the moment due to a slightly-experimental change I made in debian-cd to save a bit of space; looking at whether it's easily fixable. in the meantime I'm not going to build more install CDs
[02:02] <ogra> ok
[02:02] <Kamion> (no point)
[02:04] <infinity> Kamion: Oh.  Too late, but I won't trigger livecd builds, just let the filesystems go to waste when they're done.. <shrug>
[02:05] <infinity> Kamion: Or, wait.  Do you mean "debootstrap is broken in the context of install CDs", or "it's broken, period"?
[02:06] <infinity> Kamion: Cause I was just doing Live builds right now, not triggering install builds.
[02:06] <Kamion> infinity: only in the context of install CDs
[02:06] <infinity> Okay, good.
[02:06] <Kamion> I've decided to fiddle debian-cd in a different way
[02:06] <infinity> Then I'll let the live builds go on.
[02:06] <infinity> ubuntu-live should be publishing shortly, and I'd like to get some testing while I'm in bed. :)
[02:06] <infinity> (Mithrandir said amd64 was okay, powerpc and i386 are dailying as we speak)
[02:07] <ogra> infinity, i'll do some live testing (so i can rsync from ubuntu-live later)
[02:07] <infinity> Kay, I'll let you know when the publishing run is done...
[02:13] <infinity> Okay, ubuntu-live ISOs should be published for all arches.
[02:14] <infinity> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[02:18] <infinity> (rsync works too)
[02:18] <ogra> i know, but my last ubuntu liove iso also dates back to flight2
[02:21] <infinity> Oh, no, I didn't mean "they'll rsync well over other ISOs", I just meant "you can download with rsync"...
[02:21] <infinity> Mostly, I'm just paranoid about wget screwing up my download. :)
[02:21] <infinity> (but you can wget, then check MD5SUMs, I guess, then rsync to fix if it's broken.. <shrug>)
[02:22] <ogra> yup
[02:22] <ogra> i already have two rsyncs running, so i resort to wget for more images :)
[02:30] <mdke> infinity, any luck with ubuntu-docs?
[02:30] <infinity> I've been swamped, I'm sorry. :/
[02:31] <mdke> yeah, np I can see :)
[02:31] <infinity> I have a big note here, telling me that it's important.  It's just one or two bullet points below some other things on that same note.
[02:31] <mdke> infinity, ok, in that case I'll stop nudging for a while :)
[02:35] <infinity> ogra: Live filesystems for edubuntu built, livecd build running.  And from here on, I think you can expect radio silence from me (bed), so just keep refreshing http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/current/ until the timestamps get newer. :)
[02:36] <ogra> i will, thanks and sleep tight 
[02:46] <sistpoty> ping mdz
[02:48] <infinity> elmo : Can you sync mysql-dfsg-5.0 from Debian (or do an autosync run, which will catch it)?  Thanks.
[02:48] <infinity> ogra: Those images are published, BTW.
[02:49] <infinity> elmo: Oh, nevermind, looks like you did a run when I wasn't looking.
[02:49] <ogra> infinity, and they llok good (size and report wise), thanks again ... and to bed with you
[03:00] <Riddell> seb128: what's your thoughts on having avahi-daemon installed by default but turned off?
[03:01] <seb128> would be nice
[03:01] <seb128> we just need an easy way to turn it from the UI then
[03:01] <ogra> and a big popup warning what its doing :)
[03:03] <ssam> seb128, how about a zeroconf tab in the network setting control panel
[03:04] <Kamion> ogra: (you know that report.html is irrelevant for live CDs, right?)
[03:04] <Kamion> I've been meaning to stop publishing that
[03:04] <ogra> Kamion, yes, but i'm so used to it :)
[03:04] <sistpoty> elmo: please sync ocamlcreal from unstable, ubuntu override ok. Thx.
[03:04] <seb128> ssam: yeah, could be a place for that
[03:06] <Kamion> ogra: ok, well it's no longer published now
[03:06] <ssam> seb128, perhaps letting you choose which interfaces you want it on. you might want it for wireless, but not when you plug into your office network
[03:06] <ogra> Kamion, great, so it wont fool me anymore :)
[03:07] <Lathiat> ssam: unfortunatley that is not yet available in avahi
[03:07] <Lathiat> ssam: short of using iptables
[03:09] <seb128> ssam: it has been discussed on the zeroconf spec on the wiki
[03:10] <seb128> ssam: those points are mentionned IIRC
[03:11] <ssam> seb128, ok thanks
[03:22] <\sh> hmm..do we need avahi/zeroconf/scary magic for network and system administrators by default? I think it should be only for the brave users...
[03:24] <Lathiat> 'network administrators' ?
[03:24] <Lathiat> how is that role defined within ubuntu?
[03:25] <ogra> people that use more ubuntu-server than -desktop installs ?
[03:25] <\sh> Lathiat: the network admins have to close all incoming ports towards all workstations in the network to prevent any harm
[03:25] <Lathiat> \sh: its already decided that avahi has to be off by default so i dont really see point in this conversation anyway?
[03:25] <\sh> and blocking all multicast addresses
[03:26] <Lathiat> blocking multicast on a local network is hardly going to make anything more secure
[03:26] <Lathiat> and not even possible on a switch?
[03:27] <\sh> Lathiat: with a normal 3com switch of course it's not possible..thinking about real life and expensive switches with router logic inside, it is possible
[03:27] <Lathiat> true
[03:27] <Lathiat> that really has nothing to do with whether its enabled on the PC tho
[03:27] <Lathiat> it just wont work if they block it
[03:28] <Lathiat> i dont know anyone who blocks multicast accross their network tho for security
[03:28] <Lathiat> and avahi is LL so it wont cross routers anywhere where its most likely to be blocked
[03:28] <\sh> Lathiat: yes. that's why it should not be installed by default, because when there is no lighter to play with, there will be no fire
[03:28] <Lathiat> \sh: so why dont we not install firefox? they cant goto bad web pages then
[03:29] <Lathiat> maybe skip network drivers? ;)
[03:29] <\sh> Lathiat: in coporate environments :)
[03:29] <Lathiat> \sh: corporate environements are customized
[03:29] <Lathiat> and usually dont give users root
[03:29] <Lathiat> so they couldnt turn it on in the first place
[03:30] <\sh> Lathiat: okok...next time I use my live cd to turn it on :)
[03:30] <Lathiat> \sh: and then its blocked at the switch? ;p
[03:30] <Lathiat> \sh: yo ucould do lots more damage with a livecd than use avahi :)
[03:31] <Lathiat> and avahi is coded to be fairly secure its not like its a big gaping security hole (im not saying it doesnt have any security bugs, odds are it does somewhere)
[03:31] <\sh> Lathiat: actually that's why most of the companies have more problems with the internal network then with external conncections :)
[03:31] <Lathiat> heh
[03:31] <Lathiat> most companys just need to shoot their employees :)
[03:31] <Treenaks> Lathiat: AND their customers!
[03:32] <pitti> Lathiat: I reviewed the code for maybe 30 minutes, and I just found one obvious flaw, which I told lennart, and he fixed it in upstream cvs some hours later
[03:32] <Lathiat> pitti: i saw
[03:32] <pitti> Lathiat: ah, yes, I remember
[03:32] <Lathiat> in fact we even discussed it :)
[03:32] <pitti> that doesn't mean that there are no bugs, but the code looks fairly sane
[03:33] <Lathiat> any which way, its off by default, turning it on isnt much harder than going and installing sshd and adding a user claled test/test
[03:33] <Lathiat> pitti: i said 'coded to be'.. 'not sayign it doesnt have any..' :)
[03:33] <pitti> Lathiat: right :)
[03:33] <\sh> starting VMS 
[03:33] <Lathiat> trying to say it doesnt have any security bugs would be silly :) just saying that its designed to be OK, we check data all about the place, and not just blindly accept things, so its not a 'gaping' hole :)
[03:35] <Lathiat>  having said that
[03:35] <Lathiat> whats the bet someone finds a really big hole tomorrow :P)
[03:36] <Lathiat> garrr
[03:36] <Lathiat> im hitting my P key again
[03:36] <Lathiat> im going to rip it out
[03:41] <pitti> Lathiat: but then you couldn't type tongue smileys any more :-p
[03:42] <Lathiat> but then i wouldnt look like a dickhead typing combination tongue-smile smileys :)
[03:43] <Lathiat> see what i mean :(
[03:45] <pitti> hi desrt 
[03:45] <pitti> I'm so sick and tired of discussing hald privileges
[03:45] <desrt> this is why i didn't abuse you
[03:45] <desrt> you've had enough abuse
[03:46] <jk__> what's the right place to tell how I got madwifi running in restricted WEP mode?
[03:46] <pitti> elmo: please sync libapache2-mod-auth-pgsql and pmount
[03:46] <pitti> desrt: heh :)
[03:47] <pitti> desrt: I just wonder why I'm the only dickhead who wants to go that way
[03:47] <\sh> jk__: #ubuntu :)
[03:47] <desrt> pitti; dude.  i'm with you.
[03:47] <desrt> pitti; you're the voice of reason and sanity
[03:47] <desrt> i think there is _no doubt_ that hal has about a million holes in it
[03:47] <desrt> and allowing users to shoot strange command packets at it is only going to introduce more attack possibilities
[03:47] <Treenaks> desrt: little ones, or huge, gaping ones?
[03:48] <desrt> at the same thing, moving the entire thing to run as root.... heh... are we morons?
[03:49] <pitti> Treenaks: not sure, but it took me about 30 seconds to find that you can probably own hald with a specially crafted mac partition signature on your usb stick 
[03:50] <pitti> Treenaks: (at least crash)
[03:50] <Treenaks> pitti: whee.. sanity..
[03:50] <pitti> I phear the moment if somebody actually looks for holes in the code
[03:50] <desrt> and most hax0rs are more bored an an overworked ubuntu hacker :)
[03:51] <pitti> and I'm not even very experienced with finding holes
[03:51] <Treenaks> So Ubuntu needs a few professional secuirty auditors? :)
[03:51] <Treenaks> -typo
[03:51] <desrt> well
[03:51] <desrt> a trivial workaround is available
[03:51] <desrt> DON'T RUN HALD AS ROOT
[03:51] <desrt> -ahem-
[03:51] <\sh> those people can be really expensive :)
[03:51] <pitti> desrt: shiny idea, go tell upstream :)
[03:52] <pitti> Treenaks: still, security auditing can never hurt, but please one hole at a time :)
[03:52] <jk__> \sh: Tell, not ask. I was hoping for something less ephemeral than irc
[03:52] <desrt> and i know a lot of the other hal contributors aren't as talented as i am :p
[03:53] <janimo> pitti, aren't there tools already to find typical bugs like the alloc() one you just sent to the hal list?
[03:53] <Riddell> infinity: I'm probably being impatient here but do you know why kdelibs -0ubuntu8 isn't listed in dapper.all.i386? uploaded an hour Ago
[03:53] <janimo> besides grep :)
[03:53] <\sh> jk__: wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:53] <pitti> janimo: I used advanced static code analysis
[03:53] <pitti> janimo: (a.k.a. 'grep')
[03:53] <desrt> woh
[03:53] <janimo> your brain? 
[03:53] <desrt> oh.
[03:53] <desrt> i know that method!
[03:53] <\sh> jk__: to have your experiences written down :) and archived forever :)
[03:54] <jk__> :-)
[03:54] <pitti> janimo: but yes, there are tools to find the common holes; I never used them, though (although I would like to)
[03:55] <pitti> janimo: in fact some of the recently discovered holes were discovered by these systems
[03:55] <pitti> janimo: in experienced hands, they can be really powerful
[03:55] <desrt> hmm
[03:56] <desrt> hax0r/slashing is one of the pieces missing from my skillset
[03:57] <\sh> so..bbl...
[04:13] <Riddell> pitti: how come CUPS browsing is off by default?
[04:13] <Robot101> Riddell: aren't all network services off by default?
[04:14] <desrt> Robot101; that's not really a valid way of approaching it :)
[04:14] <desrt> Robot101; since it's only bound to localhost but still the interface is disabled
[04:14] <desrt> Riddell; you mean the web interface, or ...?
[04:15] <Robot101> the localhost:631 is not the same as browsing for printers
[04:15] <desrt> k.  i'm probably wrong then :)
[04:15] <Robot101> although I agree, both disabling and binding to localhost is quite annoying
[04:15] <Robot101> just the latter would be sufficient for me
[04:15] <desrt> it prevents abuse by people not in the printer admin group
[04:15] <desrt> but the gnome cups utilities are nowhere near as functional as the web interface :(
[04:15] <Robot101> er, you need to log in to effect any changes
[04:16] <Riddell> ...knowing little as I do about CUPS. I'm just passing on a query
[04:16] <Riddell> browsing sounds like searching the network not opening any ports
[04:16] <jdub> Riddell: not the way CUPS works
[04:16] <jdub> Riddell: it listens for broadcasts
[04:16] <jdub> (bong like SMB!)
[04:17] <Riddell> right, and like dnssd
[04:17] <Robot101> even if it only sent out queries and listened for responses, it could still potentially be exploited with malicious responses
[04:17] <janimo> is new cups supposed to autoconfigure usb printers?
[04:17] <sivang> Riddell: if you use g-c-m to enable this, you will be prompted to confirm opening port 639 on your machine
[04:17] <Robot101> hence off is a good plan.
[04:17] <janimo> i.e no need for setting them up with g-c-m?
[04:17] <Mithrandir> Robot101: so can web browsers, etc.
[04:17] <Robot101> Mithrandir: yes, but not without the user knowing
[04:18] <jdub> janimo: i don't think we have the red hat changes to do that yet
[04:23] <pitti> janimo: no, we aren't quite that far
[04:23] <janimo> planned for dapper?
[04:23] <pitti> janimo: mainly because selecting the correct driver is not trivial
[04:23] <pitti> janimo: no, completely automatic is not even spec'ed
[04:23] <pitti> janimo: we wanted to make it much easier than it is now, though
[04:24] <sivang> pitti: IIRC upstream were going to take care of that, no?
[04:24] <pitti> sivang: automatic conf? no, they won't
[04:25] <sivang> pitti: ah sorry, got confused with automatic detection...
[04:26] <janimo> is there a printing spec for dapper with the improvements vs breezy written up?
[04:26] <janimo> planned improvements that is
[04:27] <pitti> yes, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomaticPrinterConfiguration
[04:27] <janimo> got it thanks
[04:27] <janimo> LP does not have search for specs right?
[04:27] <janimo>  I always load up the whole page then look in it
[04:27] <janimo> takes quite a bit
[04:27] <Riddell> infinity: ignore me, I was being impatient
[04:28] <Lathiat> hrm, what happened to unrar-nonfree
[04:28] <Mithrandir> it was renamed to unrar
[04:28] <Mithrandir> and unrar to unrar-free
[04:29] <Lathiat> err
[04:29] <Lathiat> i dont see either?
[04:29] <pitti> unrar-free |  1:0.0.1-2 | http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Packages
[04:29] <pitti> unrar-free |  1:0.0.1-2 | http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Sources
[04:29] <tseng> unrar is broken because its trying to go into non-free
[04:29] <tseng> not overridden into multiverse
[04:29] <janimo> pitti, what about PrinterSharing, does not seem approved
[04:29] <Lathiat> ah
[04:29] <pitti> janimo: we don't have manpower to tackle either spec so far
[04:30] <Lathiat> pitti: umm, i only see sources
[04:30] <Lathiat> pitti: do you have it installed?
[04:30] <Lathiat> tseng: do i have to ask elmo to fix that?
[04:30] <janimo> I wonder if I can help, I'll look at these specs
[04:30] <tseng> Lathiat: yes
[04:31] <pitti> Lathiat: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/u/unrar-free/ -> it's really, really there
[04:31] <pitti> Lathiat: and yes, apt-get install unrar-free WFM
[04:32] <Lathiat> i have dapper{,-updates,-security} main universe multiverse restricted and i dont have a binary for it
[04:32] <Lathiat> i must be doing something silly
[04:33] <pitti> Lathiat: what does 'apt-cache madison unrar-free' say for you?
[04:33] <Lathiat> [lathiat@qaplaH lathiat] % apt-cache madison unrar-nonfree
[04:33] <Lathiat> unrar-nonfree | 1:3.5.2-0.1 | ftp://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/multiverse Sources
[04:33] <Lathiat> [lathiat@qaplaH lathiat] %
[04:33] <pitti> and -free?
[04:33] <pitti> (nonfree is fucked, we already know that)
[04:33] <Lathiat> unrar-free |  1:0.0.1-2 | ftp://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Packages
[04:33] <Lathiat> unrar-free |  1:0.0.1-2 | ftp://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Sources
[04:33] <Lathiat> well, nonfree is what im trying to sort out
[04:34] <Lathiat> since the free version doesnt unrar pretty much anything i want it too
[04:34] <pitti> ah, ok, I wondered about <Lathiat> i dont see either?
[04:34] <ogra_ibook> so you want unrar now :)
[04:34] <Lathiat> well
[04:34] <Lathiat> i didnt realise it was called -free
[04:34] <Lathiat> i cant see 'unrar' or 'unrar-nonfree'
[04:34] <Lathiat> 'as binary
[04:35] <Lathiat> so i need to mail elmo and say that unrar-nonfree needs to be overridden into multiverse?
[04:35] <pitti> Lathiat: hm, 'unrar' rather, right?
[04:36] <Lathiat> err
[04:36] <Lathiat> ah ok
[04:36] <Lathiat> well
[04:36] <Lathiat> no
[04:36] <hunger> apt-get install unrar gets me a note informing me that apt will install unrar-nonfree instead.
[04:36] <Lathiat> actually yes
[04:36] <Lathiat> i thin
[04:36] <Lathiat> source is unrar-nonfree
[04:36] <Lathiat> binary is unrar
[04:37] <Lathiat> hunger: mine says its not available
[04:37] <hunger> Lathiat: Yeap, after purging unrar-nonfree I get that message.
[04:38] <Lathiat> right
[04:38] <hunger> Lathiat: unrar-free does install here though... but it does not really unrar much.
[04:38] <Lathiat> hunger: exactly what i said above :)
[04:38] <Lathiat> its fairly useless
[04:38] <hunger> Lathiat: Right.
[04:42] <janimo> where is the specs current status for dapper in the wiki?(colors, estimated times etc)
[04:46] <sivang> janimo: this is now in LP, IIRC
[05:10] <pitti> jdub, desrt, sjoerd: I'd appreciate your opinion on the utopia list, so that the guys see that I'm not the only weirdo here :)
[05:12] <janimo> pitti, yeah you;re quite outnumbered there :)
[05:13] <janimo> btw the spec says try eggcups early in the cycle. has that happened?
[05:14] <pitti> janimo: no, this spec was just assigned to me because nobody else wanted it; but ENOTIME from my side
[05:14] <janimo> ok
[05:14] <pitti> janimo: if you are interested in improving printer support, we'd appreciate
[05:14] <pitti> it badly needs love
[05:14] <janimo> I am interested
[05:14] <pitti> I can keep up with fixing the most horrible cups bugs, but not with adding features
[05:15] <janimo> all my friends give me the weird looks when using ubuntu and printing issues is one of the reasons :)
[05:15] <pitti> janimo: sad, but true
[05:15] <jdub> pitti, janimo: that's going to involve cups patches and stuff too :(
[05:15] <tseng> pitti: its hard to sound crazy when you give such specific examples
[05:16] <janimo> did RH have it fixed or we'd have to do more work beside what they have?
[05:16] <pitti> janimo: there are handfuls of cupsys bugs in bz, fedora's hal-cups-utils (and it's g-v-m integration) needs a look
[05:16] <janimo> means I'll have to install gnome :)
[05:16] <janimo> ok then
[05:16] <pitti> jdub: certainly; what's wrong with patching cups? (well, ok, upstream is not really accepting patches, but still...)
[05:17] <pitti> janimo: not for triaging cupsys bugs and for hal-cups-utils
[05:17] <pitti> janimo: if the current system would at least be less buggy, it would already help a lot
[05:17] <janimo> sure, but I want to look at the ui side too
[05:17] <pitti> janimo: merely installing gnome-cups-manager should do; you don't actually need the whole gnome
[05:17] <pitti> it talks to cups and configues it, and you can manage jobs with it
[05:18] <pitti> i. e. it doesn't talk to many other gnome stacks
[05:18] <janimo> yeah, but I will do it anyway (laptop-testing team :) and want to see if something like g-c-m can be written for xfce
[05:20] <Diziet> So in python I have a list containing several lists.  How do I flatten it into one big list ?
[05:20] <sivang> janimo: I might be able to put some help for small fixes, and gui changes if you like help :) I did the gui part of the "Enable LAN printer detection" ubuntu patch in g-c-m.
[05:20] <Diziet> I don't seem to be able to find the standard library function to do this.
[05:21] <janimo> sivang, ok :)
[05:21] <Diziet> I could roll my own with reduce but surely it should be in the library ?
[05:21] <pitti> Diziet: lemme look in my 'Python Cookbook', 1.12 "Flattening a nested sequence"
[05:22] <jdub> pitti: stuff to maintain, work to do, changes to test... usual gumpf :)
[05:22] <Diziet> Why oh why oh why is everything so difficult in Python ?
[05:22] <pitti> jdub: yes, today is not my best 'upstream love' day either
[05:22] <janimo> Diziet, I think ff needs to depend on libnss3
[05:22] <janimo> for https access to work
[05:23] <Diziet> janimo: You have a system with no libnss3 ?  Well done :-).
[05:23] <Diziet> But seriously, yes, it should.  Doesn't it ?  If not, please file a bug.
[05:23] <janimo> Diziet, it needs to be depended upon to be installed ;)
[05:23] <janimo> I did file a bug two days ago
[05:23] <Diziet> Oh, right.  Well, I'm not working on ff this week.  I'm wrestling with a very silly programming language instead.
[05:24] <pitti> Diziet: no standard lib for that, you need to write your own function
[05:25] <janimo> ruby has Array#flatten :)
[05:25] <janimo> too bad it wasn't around when thawte was founded ;)
[05:28] <sjoerd> pitti: i'm quite far with a patch for hal, so that it uses a helper running as root to invoke programs
[05:29] <sivang> Diziet: do you have anything to say in favor or, against dropping users' home directory suggestions and instead just letting a user add dirs he wants to backup (re: HomeUserBackup)
[05:30] <sjoerd> pitti: first version should be finished tomorrow evening or maybe even tonight :)
[05:34] <Diziet> sivang: Err, what would it do by default ?
[05:35] <Diziet> I think it is more important that it backs up users home directories by default than that there is any way to configure what it backs up.
[05:38] <sivang> Diziet: by default I will make it check /home , if it finds it, it backes up everything underneath is that has an /etc/passwd entry. If not, I am thinking of letting the user specify the home toplevel. "I couldn't identify where users' homes are stored. Please choose the home toplevel"
[05:39] <sivang> Diziet: bad, drop the passwd bit. home can also be /users/s/sivan...
[05:40] <Kamion> why not just go through the home directory fields for non-system users in /etc/passwd, then?
[05:41] <jdub> hrm, 'tis a pity lenovo's recent lappies don't have DVI ports
[05:41] <sivang> Kamion: hmm.. good point. thanks, I hope there's a nice and easy way API to walk through /etc/passwd ;-)
[05:42] <ogra_ibook> is this a single user app ?
[05:42] <sivang> ogra_ibook: the backup one?
[05:42] <ogra_ibook> the $HOME should suffice 
[05:42] <ogra_ibook> s/the/then
[05:42] <Diziet> ogra: No, bad idea.
[05:43] <sivang> ogra_ibook: if you're not an admin that can sudo, it's going to let you backup only your home
[05:43] <ogra_ibook> sivang, yes
[05:43] <Diziet> Right.
[05:43] <sivang> ogra_ibook: if you are, then backup all homes.
[05:43] <sivang> or at least, offer to backup all homes
[05:43] <Diziet> But having things accidentally left out of a backup is very bad.
[05:43] <ogra_ibook> good, whats wrong with that ? 
[05:43] <sivang> wrong with using $HOME? 
[05:44] <ogra_ibook> wrong with $HOME only, for non admin users
[05:44] <Diziet> Err, if you're just doing this user then $HOME is right but that shouldn't be the default for the admin user.
[05:44] <ogra_ibook> true
[05:44] <ogra_ibook> thats why i asked if its a single user app
[05:44] <Diziet> Any sensible language will have an easy way to iterate over users in the passwd database.
[05:46] <sivang> Diziet: :)
[05:46] <Diziet> If you tell us what you're using we can probably produce a reference :-).
[05:47] <sivang> Diziet:heh, once I found it, I will tell you.
[05:47] <Kamion> sivang: getpwent
[05:48] <jdub> mmm, can't wait to see the T60p
[05:48] <sivang> ah, Kamion , always fast as a snap :)
[05:48] <Kamion> it's in the python pwd module
[05:48] <Kamion> (getpwall there)
[05:49] <Kamion> http://docs.python.org/lib/module-pwd.html
[05:49] <Gagatan> ipython is teh sweetness
[05:50] <sivang> Gagatan: word :)
[05:50] <sivang> Kamion: I usually print the docstrings in ipython, for quick simple stuff this is quite enough docs to get started.
[05:51] <Diziet> Oh, I meant, what language.
[05:52] <sivang> Diziet: oh, sorry. I thought it was taken for granted it's python.
[05:53] <Diziet> Yers.  Don't get me started again :-).
[06:04] <Keybuk> Riddell: if someone installs kubuntu-desktop, but kdm still logs them into gnome, what do they need to fiddle?
[06:05] <Diziet> os.getuid() etc.
[06:05] <Kinnison> Keybuk: a quick fix is probably to delete ~/.dmrc
[06:05] <Kinnison> Keybuk: Otherwise they need to find how to tell kdm to use the kde session
[06:07] <Riddell> yes, ~/.dmrc or click the Session menu same as in gdm
[06:07] <sivang> jdub: that's nice, Ubuntu appears on http://www.python.org/Jobs.html ;-)
[06:07] <Keybuk> are you sure the session menu didn't get removed in one of seb's "that's useful, get rid of it" purges? <g>
[06:11] <Keybuk> who's good at art?
[06:12] <Keybuk> we need a "mom" hackergotchi on launchpad
[06:14] <pitti> Keybuk: ask jdub for the 'mom' part :)
[06:15] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: might there be any more info about live cd persistance anywhere?
[06:15] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: there's a little bit in my blog, but no, there are no docs yet.
[06:16] <mgalvin> i saw that, ok, thanks
[06:16] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: basically, make a file system on something the live cd initramfs will see, make sure it's label is "casper-cow" and make sure persistence is turned on in the boot menu
[06:17] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: I'd _love_ to get testing and feedback on how it works, since I've just tested that it works at all. :-)
[06:17] <sivang> Keybuk: mom is getting a launchpad account? :)
[06:18] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: are there any specific size requirements, will a 128MB usb key be fine?
[06:18] <Keybuk> sivang: mom has one now
[06:18] <Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/people/mom-ubuntu
[06:19] <sivang> Keybuk: why does it need a launchpad account?
[06:19] <Keybuk> so shean file bugs
[06:19] <sivang> ah, right, cool
[06:19] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: it'll work, but it'll naturally limit the size of the changes you can do.
[06:20] <Keybuk> mom has a bugzilla account for the same reason
[06:20] <sivang> Keybuk: I knew it had, didn't notice it's been filing merge bugs in bugzilla last time
[06:20] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: right ok, cool, i'll give it a try in a bit and let you know how it goes :)
[06:21] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: also, if you want to write some user docs, that'd be great, since I suck at that.  I can always document something along the lines of what I wrote above, but it's not exactly easy for non-techies to understand
[06:21] <Yagisan> sorry for bothering, but I'm preparing a test patch to build 32bit compatibility packages for amd64, on i386, and wanted to know if it is ok to put -march=k8 in the cflags, or will the buildds have trouble with that ?
[06:21] <ulaas> how can i force a cdrom eject
[06:22] <ulaas> my dvd drive is eating my starwars disc
[06:22] <Yagisan> ulaas: paperclip in the little hole ?
[06:22] <ulaas> i hope to find an elegant solution :)
[06:23] <Mithrandir> ulaas: eject /dev/hdc ?
[06:23] <ulaas> well busy
[06:24] <ulaas> ahhh there it spit it out
[06:25] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: the first notes about it from me will be on DapperFlight3, i'll put together a seperate user level wiki page about it too
[06:25] <ulaas> now there goes the second question. is there a way to fix a dvd which is not perfectly a "disc" shape.
[06:26] <Mithrandir> mgalvin: thanks.  Feel free to Cc me if there's anything you want proofread
[06:26] <dilinger> ulaas: scissors?
[06:26] <mgalvin> Mithrandir: k, thanks
[06:26] <Mithrandir> ulaas: turn down the speed of the DVD/CDROM drive
[06:26] <ulaas> dilinger, well thats a last resort
[06:27] <ulaas> Mithrandir, hmm that sounds like an idea
[06:27] <ulaas> Mithrandir, commands?
[06:27] <Mithrandir> setcd - Control the behaviour of your cdrom device
[06:27] <Mithrandir> I'd guess
[06:28] <dilinger> ulaas: machete?
[06:29] <ulaas> dilinger, you are a warrior arent you? ;)
[06:31] <dilinger> only with petulant dvds
[06:32] <ulaas> dilinger, mine is like cone :) i wonder how did this got out QA.
[06:33] <segfault> How the LiveCD will save its state? Create some file in the user's partition?
[06:34] <ulaas> dilinger, i am gonna glue a blank cd on top of it. want to know the result?
[06:36] <Kamion> segfault: usb stick
[06:38] <segfault> humm, nice.
[06:39] <ogra> lucky you ... my DSL is still glowing ...
[06:39] <Kamion> so's mine, 20 minutes to go
[06:39] <ogra> 1:20 
[06:51] <Mithrandir> segfault: it needs a writable partition with the right label.  It can, in theory, be on anything (as long as the initramfs can see it)
[06:54] <segfault> it wont erase the usb stick, right?
[06:55] <Keybuk> brb reboot
[07:27] <seb128> see you later mvo
[07:33] <wasabi> http://chir.ag/stuff/sand/
[07:35] <sivang> seb128: how was the swim?
[07:36] <seb128> fine
[07:42] <Mithrandir> segfault: no, it won't erase the usb stick, apart if you put something in directories the boot erases, like /var/run or /var/lock
[07:56] <mako> i wanted to fix some errors on the website but my access seems to have not have carried over with the latest software transition.. who should i talk to?
[07:56] <Burgwork> mako, hendrik (hno73)
[07:58] <mako> Burgwork: i already thought of that.. i was hoping you'd say someone who was around :)
[07:58] <mako> alright
[07:58] <tseng> hi mako 
[07:58] <mako> tseng: hola
[07:58] <Burgwork> mako, afaik, there is nobody else with write access, including any doc team members (a bug that should be fixed)
[07:59] <mako> Burgwork: who else should?
[07:59] <mako> Burgwork: if you send me a list of uncontroversial additions, i can try to get a whole batch done with one motion :)
[08:00] <Burgwork> mako, I haven't looked much because I know I can't edit it. Let me think about it.
[08:01] <Burgwork> mako, I guess we really should redirect http://ubuntu.com/community/participate to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu=
[08:01] <mako> Burgwork: well, i'm going to do it anyway.. i'll put down you, mdke...
[08:01] <mdke> o.o
[08:01] <mako> Burgwork: or the other way around :)
[08:02] <mako> the participate page is much larger
[08:02] <Burgwork> mako, as long as someone can keep updating the participate page
[08:02] <mako> but it should probably be in a wiki
[08:02] <mako> well, that's exactluy the page i was trying to update :)
[08:02] <Burgwork> mako, the objective was for Helping to be short and fix up the 2nd stage pages
[08:02] <Burgwork> so that new people don't get bogged down in a lot of text and random things to do
[08:03] <mdke> mako, elmo probably hands out website access, i would have thought
[08:03] <mako> k
[08:04] <Burgwork> mdke, I don't think so, because hendrik did the move over
[08:04] <mdke> lemme see
[08:05] <mdke> anyone with access to wikiconfig.py
[08:06] <Znarl> mdke : I have access.
[08:07] <siretart> elmo: please sync sdcv_0.4.1-1/unstable overriding ubuntu changes
[08:08] <mdke> mako, ^^ Znarl is your man then :)
[08:08] <mako> ok.. wait a second
[08:08] <mdke> Znarl, can you do docteam svn accounts too?
[08:09] <Znarl> mako : Please email rt@admin.canonical.com your access requests.
[08:12] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, wow, you ripped out the annoying part from the partitioner :)
[08:26] <slomo_> elmo: please sync gazpacho from debian/unstable... ubuntu changes can be dropped
[08:29] <ogra_ibook> hmm, edubuntu ltsp building fails ... 
[08:31] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, did something in debootstrap change ? i suddenly get an archive.ubuntu.com line in the client chroot without having network (which fails on CD only installs indeed)
[08:31] <ogra_ibook> s/line/line in sources.list/
[08:43] <Burgwork> infinity, can you pass with information to pitti, if you see him before I do? http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article7895.html (regarding security patcches for FF 1.0.x  series)
[08:44] <ogra_ibook> debootstrap (0.3.1.9ubuntu1) : * Create a default sources.list for apt. (Closes: Bug#283234, Bug#315225)
[08:45] <ogra_ibook> oh that was 0.3.2 ... wrong version ..
[08:59] <lucas> *** MOTU meeting on #ubuntu-meeting NOW! ***
[09:03] <mdke> elmo, Znarl, pretty pretty please can you expedite the docteam svn access request for LaserJock?
[09:32] <mdke> anyone reproduce this: opening a file with "Open with Other Application" crashes nautilus. 100% reproducible here
[09:32] <seb128> it's fixed since yesterday
[09:32] <mdke> ah great
[09:32] <seb128> update your libgnomevfs2-0 package
[09:32] <mdke> thanks seb
[09:32] <seb128> np
[09:35] <ulaas> any issues with gamin?
[09:36] <seb128> ulaas: what?
[09:36] <seb128> the gnome-vfs bug?
[09:37] <seb128> no an issue with the gnome-vfs inotify implementation
[09:37] <ulaas> i got a dialog when i first launched in gnome session
[09:37] <ulaas> pressed ok quickly by mistake
[09:38] <ulaas> it was saying ssmthing about gamin/fam though
[09:39] <ulaas> and i get nautilus crash whenever i rightclick-properties to follow size onf a downloading file.
[09:40] <ulaas> hmm prbably thats what i have
[09:45] <Riddell> Kamion,mdz: please promote kdnssd to main
[09:45] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, same postgresql locale problem as with flight2 :(
[09:46] <ds> has anyone brought up the idea of shipping debug symbols by default with ubuntu packages?  /me is getting tired of getting empty backtraces from users
[09:46] <ogra_ibook> pitti, ^^^
[09:47] <pitti> ogra_ibook: hm, locales are all back into the 'locales' package
[09:47] <pitti> ogra_ibook: so it seems that /etc/environment wants to use a locale that isn't installed?
[09:47] <ogra_ibook> i have the same locales error
[09:48] <pitti> ds: yes, indeed
[09:48] <ogra_ibook> and postgres failing with the same eroor
[09:48] <pitti> ds: we plan this since ages, but we never got round to actually implement it completely
[09:48] <Burgwork> ds, would doing so increase the size of the download/archive?
[09:48] <ogra_ibook> pitti, sorry, already trying the next install, i'll go for the prob details later 
[09:48] <pitti> ds, Burgwork: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatedProblemReports, feel free to comment
[09:55] <ds> Burgwork: not so much.  90% of the debug information I find useful is the name of the function in the backtrace, which is only a tiny fraction of the debug information
[09:56] <ds> Burgwork: so my personal opinion is: put that info into every package, regardless
[09:56] <ds> other info, like source files, line numbers, etc., is nice, but takes more bytes
[09:58] <Burgwork> ds, ok, just wondered why they were not turned on by default. I seem to remember some sort of debian policy
[09:59] <ds> it is
[10:02] <lamont> seb128: pinbg
[10:02] <seb128> lamont: ponbg
[10:02] <lamont> any reason not to sync sid's pilot link?
[10:02] <ogra_ibook> background communication :)
[10:03] <lamont> seb128: it's currently "merge needed"
[10:03] <lamont> if we merged it, the only thing I see it possibly wanting is a Build-dep change from python (>=2.3) to python (>=2.4)
[10:03] <lamont> which will happen automatically on the buildds
[10:04] <seb128> I don't know, that's universe stuff
[10:04] <seb128> ask a motu ... :)
[10:04] <lamont> OTOH, it doesn't fix my sync problem though...
[10:04] <lamont> pilot-link is main
[10:04] <lamont> nfc why, figured it was for evo or something
[10:04] <seb128> $ apt-cache show pilot-link | grep Filename
[10:04] <seb128> Filename: pool/universe/p/pilot-link/pilot-link_0.11.8-17_i386.deb
[10:05] <lamont> oh. hrm.
[10:05] <crimsun> source is in main, though.
[10:05] <seb128> libpisock8 is used for main
[10:05] <lamont> seb128: doh.
[10:05] <lamont> ok
[10:05] <lamont> libpisock9 comes with the upgrade to current
[10:05] <pitti> Burgwork: debian policy is to compile with -O2 -g, and strip debug symbols, unless you build a package with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip,noopt
[10:05] <lamont> seb128: so source is main
[10:05] <seb128> I don't know pilot-link and I don't have any device to play with that sorry
[10:06] <seb128> right
[10:06] <lamont> and out-of-date needs-merged
[10:06] <lamont> I'm tempted to just have it sync'ed then...
[10:06] <seb128> lamont: I'll have a look now, a min
[10:06] <seb128> pitti: do you know what the IPP messages are defined?
[10:07] <pitti> seb128: EPARSE
[10:07] <seb128> for  "** (gnome-cups-manager:7075): WARNING **: IPP request failed with status 1030" by example
[10:07] <seb128> what is 1030
[10:07] <Burgwork> pitti, I am just reading a good thread between jdub and marilliat in 2002 regarding gnome2. It strikes me as insane optimization
[10:07] <pitti> seb128: oh, I see; no, I'd have to debug it
[10:07] <seb128> ok
[10:08] <lamont> seb128: the specific issue is that resources > 64KB on the palm are (1) out of spec according to the palmos spec, (2) existant, and (3) require(d?) changes in pilot-link API to deal with the reality.
[10:09] <seb128> API changes are not nice
[10:09] <lamont> my Palm T|X being an example of something that doesn't believe that 64k should be the limit.  damn developers anyway.
[10:09] <lamont> haven't looked, but given that the current package doesn't fix that problem, I'm betting that the API changes are still a bit out.
[10:14] <lamont> seb128: in any case, we shouldn't ship breezy's pilot-link in favor of sid's without a good reason...
[10:16] <seb128> lamont: current dapper version is the debian one
[10:16] <lamont> sigh
[10:16] <lamont> pkgs.debian.org is not talking, so I forgot about experimental.
[10:17] <lamont> which must be where the others (prerelease all) live.
[10:31] <ogra_ibook> GAH
[10:32] <ogra_ibook> wrong edubuntu-artwork version in the isos 
[10:33] <fabbione> dilinger: that's the result of lazyness
[10:33] <dilinger> fabbione: hm?
[10:33] <fabbione> dilinger: clearly.. developers can't write code.. so let's make them even more lazy, creating a tool that will attempt to keep them secure
[10:33] <fabbione> tsk
[10:34] <dilinger> fabbione: nah, i like the concept
[10:34] <fabbione> dilinger: nah.. developers should learn to write.. :P
[10:34] <fabbione> hmmm
[10:34] <fabbione> i am also a developer..
[10:34] <fabbione> dilinger: when are you uploading that? ;)
[10:35] <dilinger> i liked it in the st jude model, which had a learning mode and enforced exec() calls from one binary to another.. i liked it in grsecurity, w/ its acl checks , and i like it here
[10:35] <Burgwork> dilinger, so apparmour solves the issue with selinux of needing to create a seperate policy for  everything?
[10:35] <dilinger> i don't particularly like selinux
[10:35] <dilinger> fabbione: i'm considering it
[10:42] <dholbach> good night guys
[10:42] <pitti> night dholbach 
[10:43] <dholbach> night Martin
[10:43] <dilinger> pitti: i'm curious if you've looked at it at all
[10:43] <pitti> selinux?
[10:43] <dilinger> pitti: app armor
[10:43] <pitti> dilinger: no, I didn't
[10:43] <dilinger> see the opensuse link i posted
[10:44] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: sorry, what annoying bit about the partitioner?
[10:44] <Burgwork> pitti, http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article7895.html (regarding security patcches for FF 1.0.x  series)
[10:45] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, the part that asked "do you *really* not want to use the partitions you marked not to be used" :)
[10:46] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: I don't think that's changed; perhaps you did something different with the combination of the use method and the mount point
[10:46] <Kamion> Riddell: kdnssd promoted
[10:46] <Riddell> Kamion: thanks
[10:46] <ogra_ibook> nope
[10:46] <ogra_ibook> i always had it in breezy
[10:46] <pitti> dilinger: heh, this indeed reminds me of the grsecurity policies, although these were mightier
[10:47] <ogra_ibook> i always have at least 2 partitions i mark "dont use"
[10:48] <pitti> Burgwork: cool, that means that upstream supports 1.0.x as long as we support it in Breezy :)
[10:48] <pitti> Burgwork: thanks for the link
[10:48] <Burgwork> pitti, np
[10:48] <pitti> Burgwork: or, wait, do they mean 'from last November'? hmm
[10:48] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: you don't need to mark partitions explicitly to make them not be used
[10:49] <Burgwork> pitti, I think they mean 2005, which means your hosed I'm afraid
[10:49] <Kamion> you only need to say "keep and use existing data" if you want to assign it a mount point as well
[10:49] <pitti> shit
[10:49] <Kamion> that's what the partitioner was complaining about; you said "keep and use" without a mount point
[10:49] <Kamion> (without proof, but I'm fairly sure)
[10:50] <pitti> dilinger: looks nice, though, as an LSM it's easier to support
[10:50] <ogra_ibook> it doesnt anymore
[10:50] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, but much worse, i have the return of the locales bug here :(
[10:51] <Kamion> ok, wasn't me who changed it
[10:51] <ogra_ibook> and the edubuntu-artwork package is -11
[10:51] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: I need to go do other things right now, but could you put /var/log/syslog from the installer somewhere I can get it?
[10:51] <ogra_ibook> (should be -14) i wonder how that happened
[10:51] <Burgwork> pitti, you realize that 6 months means both breezy and hoary, no?
[10:51] <Kamion> old install CD?
[10:51] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, will do... first i'll finish the tests ... workstation install x86 is fine already
[10:52] <pitti> Burgwork: Yes, I'm looking forward to tell mdz that we need to put 1.5 into hoary :/
[10:52] <ogra_ibook> i download /current/ ....
[10:52] <Kamion> I've turned off the cdimage cron jobs for now, BTW, but I'm rebuilding kubuntu/install and edubuntu/install by hand now
[10:52] <Burgwork> pitti, lets just say I don't envy your job right now
[10:52] <Riddell> Kamion: can you wait until I update kubuntu-meta?
[10:52] <Kamion> Riddell: no, too late
[10:52] <Kamion> Riddell: I can certainly rebuild later, though
[10:53] <Riddell> ok
[10:59] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: I did try to adapt localechooser for the new locale-gen syntax, but it's possible I got it wrong, and I'm afraid I didn't test that change much
[10:59] <ogra_ibook> i'll look into it ...
[10:59] <Kamion> log-output -t localechooser chroot /target /usr/sbin/locale-gen "$LOCALE"
[10:59] <Kamion> log-output -t localechooser chroot /target /usr/sbin/locale-gen $EXTRAS
[10:59] <Kamion> it just does that now
[10:59] <ogra_ibook> currently i'm just runnnig through the testcycle once
[11:00] <ogra_ibook> later i'll revisit the noted bugs
[11:03] <mdz> pitti: ...
[11:03] <Riddell> Kamion: I made a bunch of changes to the language packs in kubuntu ship today but kubuntu-meta isn't picking them up, any idea why?
[11:05] <Kamion> there's no metapackage for ship
[11:05] <Kamion> and no need for one
[11:06] <Riddell> aah, of course
[11:08] <pitti> mdz: nevermind, I'm sure that fabbione has some Sizilian friends who can convince the mozilla guys to support it until 2007 :)
[11:09] <fabbione> pitti: what do i need to do my friend... you know that i can do everything for you
[11:10] <ogra_ibook> fabbione, send some people to mozilla foundation headquaters :)
[11:10] <pitti> fabbione: in http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article7895.html, we need to do s/6 months/18 months/ :)
[11:10] <sistpoty> mdz: do you have orphaned mythplugins/should I set the maintainer to a motu-team on next upload?
[11:10] <mdz> sistpoty: I'm hoping that the packages will be adopted by someone; I can't maintain them anymore
[11:10] <mdz> I don't use mythtv
[11:11] <mdz> due to not watching television anymore
[11:11] <sistpoty> mdz: ok, then I'll set maintainership to motumedia, if you don't disagree with that ;)
[11:11] <Burgwork> mdke, no time or no interest?
[11:11] <mdz> sistpoty: sounds good
[11:11] <fabbione> sistpoty: you better be sure that package will work REALLY well
[11:11] <mdz> Burgwork: both
[11:11] <sistpoty> k, thx 
[11:12] <sistpoty> fabbione: he, I'm just touching mythplugins... crimsun is the one to blame for mythtv soon ;)
[11:12] <fabbione> sistpoty: because i use it.. and if it breaks you can ask slomo.. i can become unpleaseant when i can't watch dvd/tv
[11:12] <fabbione> :)
[11:12] <sistpoty> hehe
[11:12] <mdz> Burgwork: I used to use mythtv regularly, and so created the packages and maintained them for some time.  however I have since cancelled my cable TV service and have no real use for it anymore, even if I had time to spend on the packages
[11:13] <mdz> fabbione: maybe you want to become the new maintainer?
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: no no.. i prefer to use the cluebat on MOTU's.. it's more fun :)
[11:14] <fabbione> mdz: more seriously.. i use it as a user.. i don't want to become the slave of my dvd player
[11:14] <fabbione> otherwise i will be soon maintaing 3/4 of Ubuntu myself :)
[11:16] <fabbione> sistpoty: but i will take notes .... slomo -> xine, crimsun -> mythtv, you the plugins..
[11:16] <sistpoty> *g+
[11:16] <fabbione> sistpoty: speaking of which... there is at least mythphone and another plugin that are in the source, but compiled/installed/shipper
[11:16] <fabbione> shipped
[11:16] <fabbione> plan to fix it?
[11:17] <sistpoty> fabbione: I'm planning/having a fix already which makes the individual myth* go away and build all from mythplugins (as it's done upstream wise)
[11:17] <ogra_ibook> mdz, debootstrap installs a default sources list now ... which breaks the building of the thin clients on install 
[11:18] <Kamion> my inclination there is that ltsp should trash the sources.list if that's appropriate for it
[11:18] <Kamion> I think debootstrap's new behaviour is better in the common case
[11:18] <Kamion> it used to be very annoying that it didn't set up a sources.list for you
[11:18] <fabbione> sistpoty: mythplugins is already in multiverse, packaged that way
[11:18] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, mdz, thats what i wanted to ask :) 
[11:18] <fabbione> sistpoty: you need to build mythphone and the other one i can't remember.. and package them.
[11:18] <fabbione> sistpoty: the source is tehre already
[11:19] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, the other option would have been to add an option to debootstrap
[11:19] <ogra_ibook> (to supress the default sources.list)
[11:19] <sistpoty> fabbione: as I wrote, I alread have a fix at hand which does this ;)... but I'll test it again and upload then
[11:20] <fabbione> ok
[11:22] <hile> any kernel packagers? I just filed a trivial bug for 2.6.15-x kernels, #22351 
[11:22] <hile> just wanted to ask if there is any reason _not_ set number of UARTs from 4 to 8 (see bug for details)
[11:23] <Kamion> ogra_ibook: I guess that's possible
[11:24] <Kamion> but I'd need to talk with aj to make sure we pick the same option name as Debian; for now I recommend hacking it in ltsp somewhere, I think
[11:24] <hile> and btw, anyone using encrypted root filesystems, I've got new initramfs-cryptsetup package ready (still not yet in repositories, just in http://ner.dy.fi/deb/ - read sources and build from scratch, it's quite trivial)
[11:24] <ogra_ibook> Kamion, yes, but i dont think anybody else benefits from such an option in debootstrap and a simple rm in ltsp-client-builder will do as well
[11:25] <ogra_ibook> so i'll go this path if mdz doesnt object
[11:25] <lamont> daniels: ping
[11:25] <Kamion> right
[11:25] <crimsun> hile: redirect to #ubuntu-kernel
[11:25] <hile> oh, there's such channel as well
[11:27] <ogra_ibook> mdz, any objection to add a rm for the sources.list to ltsp-build-client ? 
[11:28] <mdz> ogra_ibook: why does a pre-existing sources.list break it?
[11:28] <mdz> I thought it installed its own sources.list anyway
[11:29] <ogra_ibook> mdz, because on non networked machines you have the default archive.ubuntu.com entry
[11:29] <mdz> ltsp-build-client should be creating a fresh sources.list without regard for whether one exists
[11:29] <ogra_ibook> mdz, yes, it did, until deboostrap started shipping and installing one by default :)
[11:29] <ogra_ibook> it does
[11:30] <mdz> ...
[11:30] <ogra_ibook> and deboostrap adds archive.ubuntu.com to it
[11:30] <pitti> ogra_ibook: oh, interesting, since when? my last created chroot had an empty one
[11:30] <mdz> ltsp-build-client creates sources.list after debootstrap runs
[11:30] <ogra_ibook> in front of the cdrom entry
[11:30] <ogra_ibook> (in the installer)
[11:31] <ogra_ibook> mdz, then its the opposite and ltsp-build client just adds its entry ... i'll inspect that further, but are you ok with just wiping the one from deboostrap instead of adding a suppression option to deboostrap ?
[11:32] <mdz> yes, that's how I'm pretty sure I originally wrote it
[11:32] <mdz> unless I typod >> for >
[11:32] <ogra_ibook> i'll look at it later 
[11:32] <ogra_ibook> currently all machines are running test install here :)(
[11:33] <ogra_ibook> pitti, in 0.3.2 this was added
[11:33] <ogra_ibook> i never noticed it before ... since i built my chroots on connected machines ...