[04:14] <Madpilot> mdke_: "mdke	it's just a FullSearch on that word" - interesting - categories work differently than I assumed, then
[04:26] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, they are quite simple in Moin, unlike Mediawiki which stores them as a table
[04:27] <Madpilot> yeah
[04:27] <Madpilot> categories in Moin keep confusing me :P
[04:39] <mhz> Madpilot: what do you feel confusing about them?
[04:41] <Madpilot> mhz: I assumed that categories only listed pages that had been explicitly added to that category - but if it's just a tweaked full search display, obviously they behave differently
[04:42] <mhz> o
[04:43] <Burgundavia> in mediawiki you can link to a category without joining it
[04:44] <mhz> Madpilot: i dont quite understand you, sorry.
[04:44] <Burgundavia> mhz, I think madpilot assumed that the adding category dropbox did somethign special
[04:44] <Madpilot> mhz: I noticed that my own user page is listed in CatCleanup - and according to mdke_ it's because I have a link to CatCleanup in my page
[04:45] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: yes, I did
[04:45] <mhz> oooooh
[04:45] <mhz> now I see
[04:45] <Burgundavia> I didn't even find the drop box until last week
[04:45] <Burgundavia> I always manually type out out the category
[04:46] <mhz> me too
[04:47] <Madpilot> I actually use the tools that're provided :P
[04:47] <mhz> Madpilot: what's on your mind? what would you like to do?
[04:47] <Madpilot> I was just confused about how Categories in Moin actually worked, that's all
[04:47] <mhz> .oO(there are plenty of macros available to ease and help the mind)
[04:48] <Madpilot> I was surprised to see my own homepage showing up in Cleanup, mostly...
[04:48] <mhz> ok
[04:48] <Madpilot> yeah, I've been reading the macro page in the help section, there's some interesting stuff there
[04:49] <Burgundavia> Moin has some powerful features, it just exposes them terribly
[04:49] <Burgundavia> it is very much "by developers, for developers"
[04:50] <mhz> hehehehe
[04:50] <mhz> unfortunately yes
[04:50] <Madpilot> ...like no automatic linking from a subject page to it's talk/discussion page... (a la MediaWiki)
[04:50] <Burgundavia> which makes it wrong for us
[04:51] <mhz> Actually, I started a 'marketing approach' for them a year ago... I was the only one interested on that and another guy, once in a blue moon
[04:51] <mhz> Madpilot: there are no /talk pages in Moin
[04:52] <mhz> we always discuss at the bottom of a page
[04:52] <mhz> (a la Moin wiki) :D
[04:52] <Burgundavia> mhz, that is not good for a presentation doc
[04:52] <Burgundavia> ala an encyclopedia article or a help page
[04:52] <mhz> Burgundavia: yup, no good
[04:53] <Madpilot> mhz: a number of pages do nevertheless have /talk pages, but finding them is a crapshoot
[04:54] <Burgundavia> if it isn't exposed in the interface, it basically doesn't exist for 95% of users
[04:54] <mhz> Madpilot: yup
[04:55] <mhz> that's why I (in my wiki domains) always use ...Templates
[04:55] <mhz> some Templates have a different look and feel, others have Macros, other 'includes' etc
[04:56] <mhz> Actually, 2 years ago I was using Moin for: Biz quotes, AddressBook, Calendar, ToDo, CMS, PictureGallery, Blog, etc
[04:57] <Burgundavia> it is nice that moin supports taht, but the chances of us actually getting that stuff on our moin wiki are basically nil
[04:57] <mhz> some customers were subscribed to Product Catalogues (moin made) and were happy they got email notifications for updtes
[04:57] <mhz> Burgundavia: yup, I know
[04:58] <mhz> when I first got to Ubuntu project (booooofff long ago) I thought, "ok, we have to teach people to take advantage of Moin features..."
[04:58] <mhz> Now, I have realized that is almost impossible to effectively do that
[04:58] <mhz> as MANY just edit
[04:59] <mhz> not using Categories, Templates, etc
[04:59] <jsgotangco> yep
[04:59] <jsgotangco> :)
[04:59] <jsgotangco> social :)
[04:59] <jsgotangco> technology won't solve that
[05:00] <jsgotangco> unless you spearhead a wiki school i guess
[05:00] <Burgundavia> mhz, I don't care to figure out how to use those features. But if you show me ready to use things I will happily use them
[05:00] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: like you used the Category dropdown? :P
[05:00] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, it can only do cat at a time and too be honest most docs need to hti clenaup as well
[05:02] <mhz> jsgotangco: yes, I know I once offered to do a moin-school but have had 2nd thoughts because I feel it's more social stuff, very difficult to stop it. Now, I'd be happy to reconsider a moin-school esp. for people like Burgundavia 
[05:02] <mhz> and Madpilot 
[05:03] <Burgundavia> mhz, I don't want a school. I want a page showing me pre built things i can copy and paste
[05:03] <mhz> and all these guys who want to 
[05:03] <jsgotangco> bwahaha
[05:03] <mhz> LOL
[05:04] <Madpilot> there's a few tricks like that on the WikiGuide page - I threw the right-float ToC code on there, for example
[05:05] <mhz> yup
[05:05] <mhz> indeed
[05:05] <mhz> Burgundavia: SyntaxReference ?
[05:08] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyntaxReference <-- now *that* is useful - thanks, mhz - adding to WikiGuide now too!
[05:09] <mhz> Burgundavia: Madpilot: this is one the simplest and yet great examples of editing to imporve user reading
[05:09] <mhz> http://druidwiki.org/
[05:09] <mhz> (from Moin POV, of course)
[05:09] <mhz> Madpilot: yw, I think there are few more... but geee! there are so many system pages that I never remember
[05:10] <Burgundavia> mhz, my god, how did they get that two column?
[05:10] <mhz> simply
[05:10] <mhz> html table
[05:10] <Burgundavia> other than that, it still falls down
[05:10] <mhz> falls down?
[05:10] <Burgundavia> the top is still an ugly mess
[05:10] <mhz> syninim please? :D
[05:11] <Burgundavia> there is no side bar
[05:11] <mhz> oohhh
[05:12] <mhz> Burgundavia: if you have ideas and want them to be 'rendered' by Moin, send me an email and I can try 
[05:12] <mhz> to use Moin tricks
[05:12] <Burgundavia> I want a sidebar on all pages, ala the mediawiki one
[05:13] <Burgundavia> mhz, how do you turn off the breadcrumbs? Is that simple?
[05:14] <Madpilot> isn't there a "show breadcrumbs" option on the User Prefs page?
[05:14] <mhz> Burgundavia: well, we can have a 'section bar', something Nir Soffer did for Moin, and we could 'force' ( jsgotangco dont kick me) default NewPage to use that Template
[05:14] <Burgundavia> mhz, can somebody remove that?
[05:15] <mhz> please remember my english knowledge is limited
[05:15] <Burgundavia> the top line of pages
[05:15] <Burgundavia> blahpage >> blahpage >> blahpage
[05:15] <Burgundavia> that usually have nothing to do with where you are or have gone
[05:15] <mhz> ahhh, yes we can have None
[05:15] <mhz> Burgundavia: all we use in Moin is CSS
[05:16] <mhz> and .py
[05:16] <mhz> so we can turn on/off whatever
[05:16] <mhz> and usually those 'tabs' (we call them)
[05:16] <mhz> are determined by the Moin admin
[05:16] <Burgundavia> can you ping Hendrik and ask him to turn them off?
[05:17] <mhz> hno73 ?
[05:17] <Burgundavia> yep
[05:18] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: go to your User Prefs page, untick the "show page trail" box - no more breadcrumbs for you
[05:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, I don't care about user prefs. I want good defaults
[05:19] <mhz> Madpilot: ahhh, those were the 'breadcrumbs' ???
[05:19] <mhz> the Page Trails!
[05:20] <Madpilot> yeah - just turned mine off then on again; page trail = breadcrumbs
[05:21] <mhz> Madpilot: visit www.tecnocimiento.cl
[05:21] <mhz> I dont have the 'Edit or Show...' links
[05:22] <mhz> just tabs
[05:22] <Burgundavia> mhz, nor does ubuntu.com
[05:22] <mhz> exactly
[05:23] <Burgundavia> there is a good chance work is going to continue shipping Epip and not switch to FF because of me
[05:23] <Kyral> lol
[05:23] <Kyral> where do you work Corey?
[05:24] <Burgundavia> Userful
[05:24] <Kyral> and that is?
[05:24] <Burgundavia> we do public computers, so there is no compelling reason to use FF
[05:24] <Burgundavia> multihead Linux, primarily for use in public computing environments, such as a library
[05:25] <Kyral> ah
[05:25] <mhz> Burgundavia: nice!
[05:25] <Kyral> I'm just an idiot college student :P
[05:26] <mhz> Tecnocimiento is being forced to register as NGO because all projects we are trying here in Chile, they all have the 'feeling' of non-for-profit, and so people just dont believe in us because we are not NGO, just 'volunteers'
[05:26] <Burgundavia> mhz, mein gott, your site actually looks half decent. My hats off to you
[05:26] <Burgundavia> sadly you are still stuck with CamelCase
[05:27] <mhz> Burgundavia: thx, that version is old, I am working on a new look (not sooo diff, but diff) for February
[05:27] <mhz> Burgundavia: oh, yes
[07:32] <jsgotangco> i smell a flight 3 coming in a few days
[07:32] <Burgundavia> I don't
[07:32] <jsgotangco> why not? it looks pretty ok at the moment
[07:32] <Burgundavia> depends if they delay X and UE until after
[07:32] <Burgundavia> and the dev spring is coming up
[07:35] <jsgotangco> ugghh the ff start page...
[07:35] <Burgundavia> oh?
[07:45] <jsgotangco> css horror
[07:45] <jsgotangco> or is it ff 1.5?
[07:46] <Burgundavia> I will look tomorrow
[07:47] <jsgotangco> do you force an upgrade when its held back by apt?
[07:48] <Burgundavia> what is being held back?
[07:48] <jsgotangco> ubuntu-desktop for starters
[07:48] <Burgundavia> why is it being held back?
[07:49] <jsgotangco> dunno
[07:49] <Burgundavia> try and install it
[07:49] <jsgotangco> i did a fresh install from a build last night
[07:49] <jsgotangco> a fair number of packages are being held back
[07:51] <jsgotangco> hmmm it wanted a dist-upgrade
[07:55] <jsgotangco> hi robitaille 
[07:58] <robitaille> hi jsgotangco 
[07:59] <robitaille> I hate murphy's law:  you have a bug, reproduce multiple time.  Finally go around to do a screenshot and file the report, then you can't reproduce it anymore...
[08:01] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, robitaille are you guys using synaptic trackapd?
[08:01] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  yes
[08:01] <jsgotangco> robitaille, experienced slowdown?
[08:02] <robitaille> no.  
[08:02] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes, haven't tested recently
[08:02] <jsgotangco> ok
[08:02] <robitaille> neither before of after the package upgrade tonight.
[08:09] <jsgotangco> wow i just did 39 seconds on bootchart
[08:10] <robitaille> my record is 37s in late Decembre.  Now it hangs on the network settings...
[08:43] <Burgundavia> what were the hoary cds called?
[08:43] <Burgundavia> ne vmind
[08:56] <mdke_> jsgotangco, what's up with the start page? screenshot?
[09:06] <mdke> i wrote a much shortened start page based on about-ubuntu, playing with the idea of uploading it instead of the current one, but there might not be a lot of point, if start.ubuntu.com is going to happen
[09:06] <Burgundavia> mdke, there is no movement on s.u.c yet
[09:07] <mdke> ok
[09:07] <mdke> mpt, btw how is AboutUbuntu? any progress?
[09:07] <mdke> Burgundavia, so what do you think, shall we use the short page?
[09:07] <Burgundavia> mdke, lets make it ready to go, and if s.u.c happens, so be it, if not, we are sitting pretty
[09:08] <mdke> ok then I'll upload it and people can review.
[09:08] <mdke> i hope the new about ubuntu happens tho
[09:09] <mdke> mpt said much of the code was done
[09:09] <mdke> at UBZ
[09:16] <mdke> -> work
[09:24] <mpt> mdke, haven't had time to polish it up yet :-(
[09:24] <Burgundavia> mpt, is it likely to make dapper at this point?
[09:24] <mpt> yes, provided that I get an hour or two with someone to teach me how to package it
[09:25] <Burgundavia> mpt, bug ajmitch
[09:25] <Burgundavia> mpt, he has the time and can probably help you right now
[09:25] <mpt> yes, I'll bug him at LCA
[09:25] <Burgundavia> cool
[09:27] <mpt> mmm, new X-Chat is purty
[09:27] <Burgundavia> the -gnome one?
[09:27] <mpt> no, the Aqua one :-)
[09:28] <Burgundavia> mpt, would you mind taking a look at xchat-gnome in dapper? They are looking for people to help them with UI issues
[09:30] <mpt> I have no machine with room for Dapper
[09:31] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:36] <jsgotangco> that xchat-gnome is hideous
[09:36] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, then bug upstream about what you don't like
[09:37] <Burgundavia> #xchat-gnome on this network
[09:37] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i just used it today
[09:37] <jsgotangco> :P
[09:37] <jsgotangco> is it an official gnome project?
[09:38] <Burgundavia> but remember that all of us are used to hacking around xchat
[09:38] <Burgundavia> no
[09:38] <jsgotangco> yeah
[09:38] <jsgotangco> hmm why is it there?
[09:39] <Burgundavia> where?
[09:39] <jsgotangco> with the default install
[09:39] <Burgundavia> because mdz put it there
[09:50] <mpt> It's in the default install?
[09:50] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:50] <mpt> but Gaim already does IRC
[09:50] <Burgundavia> but shitily
[09:50] <Burgundavia> we have had xchat in there for a since warty
[09:51] <mpt> so xchat-gnome is hideous, but less hideous than Gaim?
[09:51] <Burgundavia> -gnome is not really what you would call mature UI wise
[09:51] <Burgundavia> it is a fork of xchat, so the underlying bits are sane
[09:52] <Burgundavia> dead, as of 2 years ago
[09:56] <mpt> well, sounds like fun
[09:56] <mpt> I've long wanted to design an IRC client :-)
[09:56] <jsgotangco> yay
[09:57] <mdke> jsgotangco, what was your bug in the FF homepage?
[09:57] <mdke> screenshot?
[09:58] <jsgotangco> the text only filled up 3/4 of the screen esteate like it was forced to inside a table
[10:01] <mdke> jsgotangco, it's intentional that it doesn't use the whole screen, it makes text easier to read
[10:02] <Madpilot> whitespace != wasted space :P
[10:02] <mdke> maybe we can arrange it better tho
[10:02] <mdke> i didn't want to center it
[10:02] <jsgotangco> it made the page longer for sure
[10:04] <mdke> i'll get the short one in for the next upload
[10:15] <mdke> done
[11:02] <rulerofwar> hello
[12:59] <hawking> Does anyone know what package creates /etc/X11/xkb?
[01:21] <segfault> hawking: dpkg -S /etc/X11/xkb
[04:04] <jjesse> good morning, shouldn't we remove any references to bugzilla in the docs and update them to malone per the announcement email?
[04:09] <mgalvin> jjesse: i would say yes
[04:10] <jsgotangco> greetings
[04:10] <jjesse> mgalvin: do you know if in malone ubuntu and kubuntu are the same distro?  for example https://launchpad.net/distro/ubuntu/
[04:10] <jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
[04:11] <jsgotangco> its the same
[04:11] <jsgotangco> relatively speaking
[04:12] <jjesse> btw i love the wiki pages DapperFlight2 and DapperFlight3
[04:13] <jsgotangco> i haven't seen Flight3 page yet
[04:13] <mgalvin> i think they are, mostly (there is no https://launchpad.net/distro/kubuntu/) so
[04:13] <mgalvin> jjesse: thanks :)
[04:13] <jjesse> grin i found it on RecentChanges
[04:13] <jjesse> mgalvin: you need Kubuntu Screen shots on it as well :)
[04:14] <mgalvin> :)
[04:14] <mgalvin> did you ever create a kubuntu flight 2 page?
[04:14] <jjesse> no i never did
[04:14] <jjesse> got busy doing the release notes
[04:14] <jjesse> which are current
[04:15] <jjesse> jsgotangco: have you had any time to work on kubuntu docs?
[04:15] <jsgotangco> jjesse, yeah, just finishing up my contract with my employer till next month
[04:16] <mgalvin> ah, well, i don't mind putting some kubuntu screenshots on it, please feel free to add a section for it if you like (or just send me some screenshots)
[04:16] <jsgotangco> jjesse, feb i would be relatively free by that time
[04:16] <jsgotangco> (we're moving too btw)
[04:16] <jjesse> jsgotangco: cool
[04:16] <jjesse> good luck w/ the move
[04:18] <mgalvin> jjesse: although, if there is enough to cover, just create a KubuntuDapperFlight3 page and use DapperFlight3 as a template for it
[04:21] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:21] <jsgotangco> the obvious big changes we'll have to put in are probably hmmm katapult as default
[04:21] <jsgotangco> i haven't seen that much big changes on it unless riddell will upload what he has been blogging lately
[04:25] <jjesse> jsgotangco: the releasenotes in svn are current for dapper
[04:25] <jjesse> i work w/ Riddell all the time to keep them current
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i got an updated svn
[04:26] <jsgotangco> i still check every now and then
[04:28] <jsgotangco> to be honest the more i use SuSE every now and then, the more I begin to see Kubuntu's weaknesses
[04:31] <mgalvin> jjesse: i
[04:31] <jjesse> yes mgalvin 
[04:31] <jjesse> ?
[04:32] <mgalvin> 'll take a peak at your release notes in svn
[04:32] <mgalvin> sorry, hit <enter> by mistake :-/
[04:32] <jjesse> ok repos/trunk/kubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml
[04:32] <mgalvin> k, cool, thanks
[04:32] <mgalvin> i'll also d/l a copy of kubuntu so i can take some screenshots
[04:33] <mgalvin> i should have some time to do it before flight 3 is released
[04:33] <jjesse> k thanks, busy at work on a project
[04:33] <mgalvin> sure, np
[04:33] <mgalvin> i should try out kubuntu anyway :)
[04:34] <jjesse> i have a dapper build that i use w/ qemu so i don't mess up my work latpop
[04:35] <jsgotangco> i smell flight 3 in a week....
[04:35] <jjesse>  RoseAnn, 
[04:35] <jjesse> 
[04:35] <jjesse>  At the bottom of our webpage, www.ftpb.com, there is a link to 
[04:35] <jjesse> "Intranet". If you click on that, it will ask for a username and a 
[04:35] <jjesse> password. If you provide the network username and password it will 
[04:35] <jjesse> open up your email. 
[04:35] <jjesse> doh
[04:35] <jjesse> wrong window
[04:36] <jjesse> jsgotangco: riddell mentioned this week hopefully
[04:36] <jsgotangco> nice you use IRC at work hehehe
[04:36] <jjesse> yup
[04:39] <mgalvin> i tried to get people at my job to use IRC too, that lasted about a week, then the next moday everone forgets to open xchat and that was that... oh well :-/
[04:39] <jsgotangco> at work, we use skype
[04:39] <mgalvin> people are so lazy sometimes
[04:39] <mgalvin> i set up an internal jabber server so we all use that now
[04:40] <mgalvin> more secure this way anyway
[04:40] <jsgotangco> i wouldn't want to rely on it but unfortunately, the higher ups are so used to it and won't even budge
[04:41] <jjesse> it depends on the person, aim, icq or email
[04:46] <jjesse> welcome gobbe 
[04:46] <jjesse> gobbe is interested in helping w/ kubuntu docs :)
[04:48] <jsgotangco> heyyy
[04:51] <jsgotangco> would you like a chameleon? heh
[05:11] <jsgotangco> ok gotta sleep
[05:11] <jsgotangco> see you all (hopefully) in the meeting
[05:11] <jsgotangco> please come *sigh*
[08:08] <LaserJock> mdke: -devel reminds me, will I get an email from elmo for svn access?
[08:08] <mdke> good point
[08:09] <mdke> LaserJock, yes, when its done
[08:10] <LaserJock> oh, ok. I didn't know if it was an email thing or maybe a LP thing or what
[08:12] <mdke> he'll mail you user/pass
[08:12] <mdke> encrypted
[08:13] <LaserJock> ahh, I see
[08:19] <Burgwork> mdke, I have asked for permissions to the main website
[08:19] <Burgwork> I'd like to start a dialog about fixing up the main website as well
[08:19] <Burgwork> mostly the main page
[08:36] <LaserJock> Burgwork: is that within the doc-team's realm?
[08:37] <mdke> Burgwork, make sure you talk first, act afterwards
[08:39] <mdke> LaserJock, no
[08:41] <Burgwork> mdke, nah, I like shooting from the hip ;)
[08:42] <Burgwork> LaserJock, the main website is sort of marketing, really
[08:43] <LaserJock> oh, I just wondered who was responsible for it
[08:43] <mdke> LaserJock, the canonical people who do marketing, and henrik, the webmaster
[08:44] <mdke> Burgwork, i know, that's why i said it ;)
[08:50] <Burgwork> mdke, it only looks that way
[08:50] <Burgwork> LaserJock, but we currently have no community marketing team
[08:51] <mdke> unsurprisingly
[08:51] <mdke> marketing should be for those who do it for a living, imo
[08:51] <mdke> at least the decision making
[08:51] <LaserJock> true
[08:53] <Burgwork> mdke, no, you can have a successful community marketing team, you just need a strong central voice
[08:54] <mdke> as I said, "at least the decision making"
[08:54] <Burgwork> hence the DIYMarketing page
[08:54] <Burgwork> we need more of that
[10:10] <mgalvin> Burgwork: hey i can understand moding the splash section... but can i ask why u removed the intro segue?
[10:13] <mgalvin> additionally, i'm not done yet, when its done i will send and email to the list stating that it is ready for review and such
[10:22] <Burgwork> mgalvin, sorry, my overzealous red pen
[10:23] <mgalvin> :), no worries, was just wondering if there was some specific reason
[10:24] <Burgwork> mgalvin, oh and Kamion said he loved your work
[10:26] <mgalvin> Burgwork: i added back the intro segue with "I" since i feel in this case it adds a personal touch and provokes reader enthusiasm, but left your other change (i should not put my personal views there )
[10:26] <mgalvin> cool, glad to hear people like it :)
[10:26] <Burgwork> mgalvin, ok, sounds good
[10:26] <Burgwork> mgalvin, Kamion = Colin Watson = number 2 on the distro team
[10:27] <mgalvin> i know who he is :) i worked with him on DapperFlight2 also
[10:27] <Burgwork> ok
[10:30] <mgalvin> Burgwork: about LiveCDPersistence... I would like to create a wiki page that describes dappers live cd persistance... do you think moding this page is best or should I create the seperate DapperLiveCDPersistence page?
[10:30] <mgalvin> (asking you since it says you were the last person to touch it)
[10:31] <Burgwork> mgalvin, create a general page, not specific to dapper
[10:32] <Burgwork> try and avoid $releasenname in the name unless the target audience is  Ubuntu developers
[10:32] <mgalvin> ok, do you think it would be best to overwrite/replace LiveCDPersistence or add  two sections (since it already has hoary content)?
[10:33] <mgalvin> meaning replace it with the new dapper way of doing it
[10:33] <Burgwork> mgalvin, add a new section of Ubuntu 6.04
[10:33] <Burgwork> actually, no overwrite the hoary stuff
[10:33] <Burgwork> it is only alive cd
[10:33] <mgalvin> yea, we could always recover the old hoary stuff if someone complains
[10:34] <Burgwork> if it was discussing something on an installed system I would go for the first option
[10:36] <mgalvin> ok, this page is just and old way of getting persistance... it should not be needed any more