[12:08] <netdur> every open source project can be installed via "configure & make & make install" so shouldn't be there some sort of auto-builder server to track and build them every release?
[12:09] <azeem> netdur: not every
[12:10] <mjg59> netdur: That provides no mechanism for generating dependency information, taking into account differences in userspace interface, that sort of thing
[12:11] <ogra> Riddell, could i ask for a last favor ?
[12:13] <netdur> I feel hurt :'( by this problem
[12:23] <lucas> does sbody know who is in charge of popcon.u.c ? it has been broken for half a year
[12:24] <Burgundavia> lucas, see the recent thead on -devel
[12:24] <lucas> I'm the one who started it
[12:25] <lucas> but I didn't receive any answer like 'it's my fault'
[12:25] <lucas> mdz said it was useless since most people install the standard set of packages, but somebody mentionned that it was useful for universe. thread stopped basically here.
[12:35] <psusi> anyone know the difference between /etc/mkinitramfs/* and /usr/share/initramfs-tools/*?
[12:53] <glick> i guess the latet update hosed the automounting facilities in ubuntu
[12:54] <glick> alot of people are havin the problems i am in the forums
[12:56] <psusi> isn't there somewhere you can download a nightly build of the dapper install cd?
[12:58] <floam> psusi: yes
[12:59] <floam> psusi: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/
[12:59] <floam> psusi: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live for the livecd
[01:01] <glick> how useable is dapper?
[01:03] <desrt> it is.
[01:03] <teroedni> Glick:Perfect
[01:03] <HiddenWolf> glick: not advisable if you want a system that you can count on.
[01:03] <glick> heh apparently i cant count much on breezy either
[01:05] <teroedni> glick:There have been no breaks yet on dapper but after what i get there will be some soon
[01:06] <psusi> I thought there was no longer a seperate livecd?
[01:07] <psusi> dapper has had some minor breakage for me once or twice
[01:07] <psusi> nothing I couldn't fix
[01:09] <HiddenWolf> psusi: livecd will allow to install, there'll still be a seperate install cd.
[01:11] <teroedni> Hiddenwolf:Can the latest livecd install?
[01:11] <HiddenWolf> teroedni: no idea.
[01:12] <desrt_> well.  that hasn't happened in a while
[01:12] <desrt_> hard lockup.
[01:16] <desrt> wonderful.  reproduceable.
[01:17] <desrt> can anyone advise me of a way to get the last words of the kernel just before it pukes?
[01:17] <glick> well at least i can listen to my music on my externel drive untill the mounting problem is fixed :/
[01:24] <HiddenWolf> desrt: kernel log?
[01:25] <teroedni> glick:Whats your problem
[01:25] <desrt> HiddenWolf; ya
[01:27] <desrt> http://desrt.mcmaster.ca/random/000_1392.jpeg
[01:27] <desrt> it's a pretty fun crash
[01:27] <desrt> looks like something is totally nuking all my memory (including video framebuffer)
[01:29] <HiddenWolf> desrt: sweet. :)
[01:30] <psusi> HiddenWolf, I see... so you can install from livecd, but setup is install only?  will the setup cd go away when dapper goes stable?
[01:31] <glick> teroedni: basically when i plug in my firewire drive i get mount errors about the device not existing in fstab or mtab, It creates the folder on the icon and mounts it however i cant write to the devices only read from them
[01:31] <glick> it creats the icon on the desktop
[01:31] <glick> and i get error messages but it mounts i just cant write to any of em
[01:31] <glick> it all worked perfectly before
[01:33] <teroedni> no permission?
[01:33] <glick> teroedni: yeah permission is for root only
[01:34] <HiddenWolf> psusi: install cd will not go away
[01:34] <glick> but when i plug it in i always get those error messages first
[01:34] <HiddenWolf> psusi: servers, OEM installs, installfests, etc.
[01:34] <teroedni> so if you do gksudo and goes to the firewire you cant write?
[01:34] <teroedni> gksudo nautilus
[01:35] <glick> teroedni: i havent tried that when i look at the permissions of the mounted device it says the owner is root with permission 744
[01:35] <teroedni> best is 777;)
[01:36] <teroedni> 744 have no writing permission
[01:36] <glick> right
[01:36] <j^> why is it that konquerer always graps /etc/alternatives/x-www-browser over firefox?
[01:37] <teroedni> i have never did this on device
[01:37] <womble> j^: Higher default priority in alternatives, I guess.
[01:37] <womble> Just update-alternatives it away
[01:37] <glick> i tihnk an update screwed up udev or pmount
[01:37] <teroedni> sudo chmod 777  device i guess would fix it
[01:38] <j^> womble each time a new version is installed?
[01:38] <j^> it gets anoying, thats all
[01:38] <womble> Is this after you've run update-alternatives and selected firefox?
[01:38] <j^> no, each time a new version of konq is installes
[01:38] <j^> d
[01:38] <j^> i can fix it by running update-alternatives
[01:40] <womble> konqueror should not be overriding a local admin choice for x-www-browser, even on upgrade
[01:40] <j^> it just did again...
[01:41] <glick> its really cool how in amorak when you press stop the music fades to black
[01:44] <desrt> oh wow.  bugzilla is dead.
[01:46] <psusi> the bit torrent download for the nightly builds is also broken
[01:47] <psusi> rejected by tracker - requested download is not authorized for use with this tracker
[01:48] <HiddenWolf> desrt: migration to launchpad has happened
[01:48] <HiddenWolf> desrt: see -deve-announce mail archives
[01:49] <desrt> what product name do we use for filing kernel bugs?
[01:49] <HiddenWolf> desrt: linux I think.
[01:49] <psusi> linux
[01:50] <desrt> does not seem to be a valid product
[01:52] <j^> desrt make sure you file the bug inside the ubuntu distribution https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[01:54] <Chipzz> ugh
[01:55] <Chipzz> apparently firefox lost its toolbar icons
[01:55] <Chipzz> known issue?
[01:58] <teroedni> by the way:I have a small bug:Nothing seriously:But my dapper on a amd 64 bit machine(64 bit dapper)
[01:58] <teroedni> have 10 virtual floppy disk 
[01:58] <teroedni> is that a know issue?
[02:01] <desrt> "linux" is not a valid source package name
[02:02] <hyperactivecrond> is the gui installer in daily iso's yet/
[02:02] <desrt> nor linux-image or any of the more qualified version names (linux-image-2.6.15-11-686, whatever)
[02:03] <HiddenWolf> desrt: ask in #launchpad?
[02:04] <j^> desrt its the name of the source package, linux-source-2.6.15
[02:04] <desrt> ah.  wonderful.
[02:11] <Mez> desrt: couldnt you have apt-cache show package | grep source 
[02:11] <Mez> ?
[02:12] <desrt> launchpad certainly doesn't explain this
[02:13] <desrt> but  thanks for the info :)
[02:41] <floam> what happened to the little notifier thing in dapper? it's like blue now and has jaggy edges
[02:42] <tseng> libnotify was redone in the infinite wisdom of J5
[02:43] <tseng> the man who brought you D-Bus API Madness, Volume 15
[02:43] <tseng> i mean... "It looks pretty"
[02:43] <floam> it does?
[02:43] <tseng> not really.
[02:43] <floam> heh
[02:43] <floam> I thought it looked a lot better when it wasn't blurry and round
[02:43] <Robot101> hurrah
[02:44] <floam> tseng: is there any discussion about this on a mailinglist or wiki or something that you know of?
[02:45] <tseng> eh the last time it was on my radar was planet gnome months ago
[02:45] <tseng> when redhat dudes told chip his implemenation wasnt good because he didnt consult them, and it was due for a rewrite
[02:45] <tseng> behold, jagged blue lines
[02:46] <floam> I was really hoping that was just a proof of concept for themeing it or something, but it hasn't changed in a few versions so I'm getting worried ;)
[02:47] <Robot101> tseng: J5 did discuss the changes in detail with chip, who is still working on it too...?
[02:48] <Robot101> sorry to impede on the trolling and all :P
[02:48] <psusi> is the firefox download window ever going to get fixed in dapper? ;_
[02:49] <tseng> psusi: it was fixed for me some weeks ago
[02:49] <psusi> really?  hrm.... wasn't for me...
[02:49] <psusi> I'm amd64 though, wonder if that has something to do with it?
[02:49] <psusi> or maybe I need to recreate my user profile or something?
[02:49] <tseng> Robot101: yeah suppose things could be happy and shiny behind the scenes now, its a downgrade on the end-user side
[02:50] <Robot101> write a new theme or something
[02:50] <tseng> Robot101: and my rh troll is unstoppable!
[02:50] <Robot101> you can now I think :P
[02:50] <Robot101> then I can troll about how ubuntu didn't design it with enough naked people, so you had to rewrite it...
[02:50] <Robot101> :)
[02:51] <tseng> I am in favor of more nakedness
[02:51] <tseng> let the flames begin.
[02:52] <floam> totem really needs a default movie to play the first time it's opened..
[02:53] <tseng> Robot101: hah, what goes around comes around.. a mono troll on u-d
[02:55] <tseng> floam: does it?
[02:55] <floam> tseng: probably not
[02:55] <floam> it was in reply to <tseng> I am in favor of more nakedness
[02:56] <tseng> ah!!
[02:56] <Robot101> lol
[02:59] <tseng> my pic would be jono inpersonating jeff
[02:59] <tseng> +k
[03:05] <psusi> anyone know the difference between /etc/mkinitramfs/scripts and /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts?
[03:07] <tseng> i believe the first is a leftover
[03:07] <tseng> but you would want to have someone like infinity or mjg59 confirm that
[03:08] <mpt> floam, upstream totem may need that, but in Ubuntu afaik it should be quite difficult to open totem unless you're opening a specific movie
[03:08] <floam> mpt: I was joking :)
[03:09] <floam> totem being hard to get to on it's own seems like not a great thing though, since it has a sidebar with a playlist
[03:09] <floam> no easy way just to start it without a movie and see that.
[03:10] <tseng> floam: how about if i put in a dvd, it autoplays
[03:10] <tseng> i close it, because i am not ready to play it
[03:10] <tseng> ..then what?
[03:10] <tseng> obviously i know several ways to get totem back
[03:11] <tseng> pretend i was dumb
[03:11] <floam> tseng: then you have to take the cd out and put it in again
[03:11] <floam> and that might take the average joe an hour
[03:11] <tseng> yeah its locked
[03:11] <floam> you cry
[03:11] <tseng> like a baby
[03:12] <floam> I guess if people wanted to keep totem inaccessible they could say nautilus should have something on the right click menu of devices for that
[03:12] <floam> but I think something like totem you'd want at least a bit handy
[03:12] <floam> it's not a minor utility
[03:13] <tseng> its a good thing i have a menu item for Avahi Discovery, though
[03:18] <tseng> ds: Zombies arent humans
[03:18] <tseng> ds: you missed the theme
[03:20] <Tm_T> ogra_ibook: hey, now I ask something stupid but answer if you can. is it legal/right to sell ubuntu discs?
[03:21] <ogra> if people pay for it ... 
[03:21] <tseng> Tm_T: i would argue that its not "right" to sell them above cost of the media and production
[03:21] <tseng> Tm_T: but its entirely legal
[03:21] <Tm_T> aye
[03:21] <Tm_T> just annoying
[03:21] <tseng> unless someone changed the contents in a way that violates the gpl and other applicable licenses
[03:22] <Tm_T> hope noone buys :p
[03:22] <tseng> selling the cd as-is is no trouble
[03:22] <Tm_T> tseng: no, some people order shipit cd:s and sell them
[03:23] <Tm_T> I understand IF those tell the way to get it free
[03:23] <Tm_T> but they don't
[03:23] <tseng> that is definately against the spirit of shipit
[03:23] <Tm_T> aye
[03:24] <Tm_T> but as long as it's legal there's not much to do
[03:26] <ogra> BenC, my laptop suddenly has only eth0 and eth2 (instead of eth1) 
[03:26] <ogra> eth2 is the airport extreme ...
[03:26] <floam> haha cool
[03:27] <floam> I can make xchat-gnome crash real easy. type /, hit tab a couple times
[03:28] <floam> I've long been an irssi holdout, but I decided to give this a go
[03:29] <floam> it has spell checking so I can look a bit smarter
[03:36] <desrt> where do i file a bug that 'sg' module isn't loading when i connect my cd drive?
[03:36] <desrt> modutils? kernel? udev?
[03:36] <ogra_ibook> sounds like udev
[03:36] <desrt> thx.
[03:52] <psusi> how can I add a package to the livecd?
[03:52] <jdub> doko: eclipse not installable due to eventual depends on mozilla-browser/libnspr4 (not the ffox version) - known?
[03:52] <psusi> I can't just append another .iso can I?
[03:53] <jdub> psusi: you can do it when running the livecd itself, or if you want it permanently there, unpack the livecd image and install it (see livecd page on the wiki)
[03:54] <psusi> problem is I need the package for the cd to be able to access my hard disk, which is where the package lives ;)
[03:56] <psusi> and the instructions on the wiki do not apply for dapper since it isn't using cloop anymore
[03:57] <psusi> I was really just hoping to be able to add the file to the disk but nautilus won't do that... I guess the .iso is closed?  so can't add a new session
[03:57] <BenC> ogra: not sure, mine did the same...has something to do with bcm43xx getting a module device table
[03:57] <BenC> ogra: if I blacklist sungem, I get just eth0 from bcm43xx
[03:58] <ogra> the intresting part is that this is not the frist reboot after the upgrade
[03:58] <ogra> it just happened out of the blue ...
[04:01] <mjg59> ogra: Network device loading order is currently non-deterministic
[04:01] <mjg59> Use ifrename
[04:01] <mjg59> (for now)
[04:03] <ogra> mjg59, since i have to start it manually anyway i dont really care about ifrename ... my order has a gap, thats the part that made me courious
[04:04] <mjg59> BenC: So it's stable for you now?
[04:04] <BenC> mjg59: very
[04:05] <BenC> still at 11M, but pretty solid
[04:05] <BenC> I think it will be ready for dapper release if we can just get firmware for it (and I'm in contact with someone about that)
[04:06] <mjg59> Cool
[04:09] <BenC> ogra: I use this if interfaces to bring up the bcm43xx auto:
[04:09] <BenC> http://librarian.launchpad.net/1517987/000_1392.jpeg
[04:09] <BenC> oops
[04:09] <BenC>         pre-up iwconfig eth0 rate 11M
[04:09] <BenC>         pre-up ifconfig eth0 up
[04:09] <BenC>         pre-up sleep 2
[04:09] <BenC>         pre-up iwconfig eth0 rate 11M
[04:09] <BenC>         wireless-rate 11M
[04:09] <BenC> plus essid and key, and it comes up automatically
[04:10] <mjg59> BenC: If 54 isn't working by Dapper, we should just nail it to 11
[04:11] <BenC> mjg59: yeah, I did hear they were working on that, and hoping it would be fixed very soon
[04:11] <BenC> it doesn't affect all bcm43xx chips
[04:12] <mjg59> Right
[04:14] <jdub> is there already a tool that figures out if/which packages are uninstallable, or is that not possible?
[04:16] <mjg59> I thought we had one of those at one point?
[04:16] <infinity> jdub: Define uninstallable.  "broken dependencies" is handled by britney.
[04:16] <infinity> jdub: Crazy "install / remove / upgrade / etc" testing can be done with "piuparts", which is pretty neat.
[04:16] <jdub> oh right
[04:16] <jdub> yeah, britney-style
[04:17] <jdub> i'd love graphs of main+universe installability over time
[04:17] <jdub> with rss feed
[04:17] <jdub> that'd be sweet
[04:17] <infinity> You're free to make some. ;)
[04:18] <infinity> britney is run on every cron.daily, and ouput sent to p.u.c/~cjwatson/testing/
[04:18] <infinity> But it's not (currently) run for universe terribly often, cause a britney run on universe takes longer than the cron.daily window.
[04:19] <infinity> Of course, this'll all get upended and reinvented when we switch to LP, I suspect.
[04:20] <infinity> With reporting bugs, you mean?
[04:20] <jdub> infinity: i'll talk to colin about it
[04:20] <infinity> (And managing them)
[04:20] <HiddenWolf> infinity: yeah
[04:20] <infinity> jdub: That would be best, yes.
[04:20] <infinity> HiddenWolf: Yeah, with any luck, a constant stream of scary user feedback will help Malone improve rapidly.
[04:21] <HiddenWolf> "hey, bugzilla is broken" - "help, where do I file bugs now?" - "whoops, I filed a bug upstream when it should be in ubuntu" - "whoops, I filed a bug upstream, but it should be in ubuntu, for another package"
[04:21] <infinity> I think that was probably the major impetus for the switch.  "Well, it's not getting much better with a handful of regular users, so I guess we should inflict the bugs/design on everyone and get more input."
[04:22] <HiddenWolf> with "help, i'm lost" and "what do I file a bug on" being the top questions.
[04:23] <psusi> infinity, hey... what's the difference between /etc/mkinitramfs/scripts and /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts?
[04:23] <HiddenWolf> infinity: I'll be convinced when launchpad gains an interface as simple as the gnome bugzilla.
[04:23] <infinity> psusi: Debian policy should make that one pretty clear (as well as general UNIX and FHS policy)
[04:23] <infinity> psusi: /usr/share is stuff from packages that we're free to overwrite whenever we like.
[04:24] <infinity> psusi: /etc is for either a) packages that need conffile-handling for their scripts (cause they are user-customisable) or b) users writing local scripts.
[04:24] <psusi> ?  why are the scripts in both places?  and where should I put mine?  in /usr/share?
[04:24] <infinity> psusi: 9 times out of 10, scripts from a package should be in /usr/share
[04:24] <infinity> psusi: Stuff you're writing locally should be in /etc
[04:25] <psusi> ok... thought so... but you can also modify the ones in /etc right?  so what gives?  /usr/share gets copied there when you mkinitramfs or something?
[04:25] <infinity> psusi: They both get copied.  But this is about how the packaging system will deal with stuff.
[04:26] <infinity> psusi: If you modify something in /usr/share, the next time that package is updated, dpkg will blindly (and correctly) overwrite your changes.
[04:26] <psusi> ok... so you can put scripts in /etc and it will work, but you SHOULD put them in /usr/share, yes?
[04:26] <infinity> psusi: If it's in /etc, it gets special treatment.
[04:26] <psusi> I see...
[04:26] <infinity> psusi: Note that, by default, there are no scripts in /etc/mkinitramfs, just placeholder directories.
[04:27] <psusi> ahh, ok... it is starting to make sense now
[04:27] <infinity> psusi: I'm assuming somewhere along the line, someone may decide to package a script there, but I can't think of a case where it would really be necessary (since a script in /usr/share and a config file in /etc is more elegant)
[04:27] <psusi> so for the dmraid package, it should go in /usr/share, but for my howto wiki, it should tell users to put it in /etc?
[04:29] <infinity> psusi: Well, if you're adding the scripts to the dmraid package, why not just request a backport, and reference that in the wiki?
[04:29] <infinity> psusi: Rather than having users fiddle low-level with copying random files to random places.
[04:29] <psusi> hrm.. oh... for some reason I was thinking that the initramfs stuff was not compatible with breezy, but I guess it was...
[04:30] <psusi> I had users fiddling with it because that's all I knew initially ;)
[04:30] <psusi> once I get the package uploaded for dapper, I'll ask that it be backported and fix the wiki
[05:39] <psusi> well.... had to patch xorg.conf on the nightly livecd to get it to not lock up... but it's working now... though xchat looks different... where's the new copy to install option?
[05:40] <ogra> copy to install ?#
[05:40] <psusi> yea... the new way to install from the livecd where it just copies the live filesystem to your hard drive
[05:41] <psusi> I was going to test that out, but can't find it
[05:42] <poningru> guys I had a question why are we still putting cli answers in documentation?
[05:42] <poningru> we should be able to give all gui answers
[05:42] <ogra> poningru, thats rather a question for #ubuntu-doc :)
[05:43] <poningru> sorry
[05:43] <poningru> wrong channel
[05:43] <poningru> I thought this was it
[05:44] <ogra> the last part starts with d, so you were already near :)
[05:45] <psusi> so... where's that new ubuntu express copy install thing on the nightly livecd? ;)
[05:46] <ogra> i havent seen any upload yet
[05:48] <HiddenWolf> psusi: it's not, it's half-finished and not uploaded
[05:50] <psusi> HiddenWolf: ohh, I was wondering why ubuntu-express wasn't installed and doesn't actually contain any files when I just installed it... I could have sworn someone ( you? ) said eariler that was working
[05:50] <poningru> and dont they have a new name for it now?
[05:51] <psusi> darn.. and I was all excited about testing it in combination with dmraid
[05:52] <HiddenWolf> psusi: I never said it worked now. I said it would work.
[05:52] <HiddenWolf> poningru: I believe it's espresso
[05:53] <HiddenWolf> psusi: kamion is developing it.
[05:53] <psusi> so... he need a beta tester? ;)
[05:54] <HiddenWolf> I have no clue.
[06:38] <sabdfl> doko: firefox has gone hugely flaky on me
[06:38] <sabdfl> am I the only one or do you have other bug reports?
[06:41] <daniels> i thought iwj maintained firefox?
[06:45] <sabdfl> good point
[06:45] <sabdfl> thanks daniels
[06:46] <daniels> i live to give
[06:46] <daniels> what the hell are you doing up at this hour, anyway?
[06:46] <sabdfl> daniels: timeshifting, i start the asia tour tomorrow
[06:46] <daniels> oh, fun
[06:47] <desrt> daniels; question for you.  is there any chance of getting the grab-breaking stuff into dapper's xorg?
[06:47] <desrt> alt+ctrl+kp/ and *
[06:47] <daniels> desrt: it's already there?
[06:47] <daniels> you just need the right config stanza
[06:48] <desrt> ah.  off by default.
[06:48] <daniels>     key <KPDV> {
[06:48] <daniels>         type="CTRL+ALT",
[06:48] <daniels>         symbols[Group1] = [ KP_Divide,   XF86_Ungrab ] 
[06:48] <daniels>     };
[06:48] <lifeless> grab-breaking ?
[06:48] <desrt> lifeless; if an app holds a grab and crashes then you lose control of the xserver
[06:48] <desrt> lifeless; this cancels the grab
[06:48] <daniels> lifeless: ctrl-alt-keypad/ closes all currently open keyboard/mouse grabs
[06:48] <daniels> ctrl-alt-keypad* kills all clients with a currently open keyboard/mouse grab
[06:48] <desrt> daniels; where does that go?
[06:49] <daniels> desrt: it's already in the XKB files
[06:49] <daniels> desrt: Option "AllowClosedownGrabs" or something, ServerFlags section.  should be in man xorg.conf.
[06:49] <desrt> perfect.  thanks
[06:49] <lifeless> desrt: evolution does that to me all the time without crashing, just naffed
[06:50] <lifeless> daniels: sweet tool
[06:50] <daniels> yeah
[06:50] <daniels> hell useful
[06:52] <desrt> works like a charm.
[06:52] <desrt> hahah
[06:52] <desrt> ctrl+alt+kp* = kill gnome-screensaver
[06:52] <daniels> something about screensavers, yeah
[06:52] <daniels> correct
[06:52] <daniels> your screensaver is useless when your grab disappears
[06:53] <desrt> in any case, my screensaver serves as a protection against my little sisters
[06:53] <desrt> i doubt they'll think to type that in
[07:00] <poningru> whats kp?
[07:01] <mjg59> Keypad
[07:01] <poningru> oh
[07:02] <mjg59> Ooh, IBM are giving away Macs for the LCA hackfest
[07:03] <sabdfl> daniels: any reason our xserver packages are version 6.8.2 and not 7.0?
[07:03] <daniels> sabdfl: waiting for flight 3 so I can break things and then stealthily flee ;)
[07:04] <sabdfl> the ultimate kthxbye
[07:04] <daniels> sabdfl: xserver-xorg is just a metapackage (as xorg-common and xserver-common), but yeah
[07:04] <daniels> i have loads of local changes
[07:05] <mjg59> sabdfl: Are you going to be at all of LCA, or just for your speaking gig?
[07:05] <sabdfl> mjg59: i'm there for most of it, headed to canberra on sunday
[07:06] <mjg59> (And why is there no bloody Inprocomm driver for Linux? It's the last real chipset we're missing)
[07:06] <mjg59> sabdfl: Cool
[07:07] <Lathiat> mjg59: you coming?
[07:07] <Lathiat> i'm speaking to the debian miniconf about MOTUish stuff
[07:08] <mjg59> Lathiat: I'm speaking, yeah
[07:08] <Lathiat> mjg59: oh, tahts right
[07:08] <Lathiat> ACPI talk 
[07:08] <mjg59> Haven't we already had this conversation? :)
[07:08] <Lathiat> probably :)
[07:12] <mjg59> Inprocomm's DNS is fucked
[07:39] <pitti> good morning
[07:40] <infinity> Morning, pitti.
[07:41] <dholbach> GOOD MORNING!
[07:42] <irvin> sabdfl, 
[07:42] <sabdfl> hey dholbach
[07:42] <irvin> good morning
[07:42] <sabdfl> irvin
[07:42] <dholbach> hellas sabdfl! :)
[07:43] <zakame> hi all
[07:43] <dholbach> hey zakame!
[07:47] <sabdfl> infinity: apache2 seems to have trouble with the new /var/run
[07:47] <sabdfl> [Mon Jan 16 06:46:20 2006]  [error]  cgid daemon process died, restarting
[07:47] <sabdfl> [Mon Jan 16 06:46:20 2006]  [error]  (2)No such file or directory: Couldn't bind unix domain socket /var/run/apache2/cgisock
[07:47] <pitti> hi sabdfl
[07:47] <sabdfl> wash, rince and repeat
[07:47] <sabdfl> hey pitti
[07:47] <pitti> ah, usual problem, similar to cups
[07:48] <zakame> heya dholbach, pitti, sabdfl :)
[07:48] <Burgundavia> pitti, are you headed to the osdl printing conference?
[07:48] <infinity> sabdfl: Yup.  Needs to be fixed in my init script, it's in the next upload already.
[07:48] <pitti> Burgundavia: we did not talk about this yet
[07:48] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:49] <Burgundavia> the dev sprint is next week, no?
[07:49] <pitti> in two weeks
[07:49] <Lathiat> hrm, that could potentially break avahi too
[07:49] <Lathiat> i think it relies on /var/run/avahi-daemon/ existing
[07:49] <sabdfl> infinity: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/28510
[07:49] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 28510: "/var/run/apache2 does not exist" Fix req. for: apache2 (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Unconfirmed
[07:50] <infinity> sabdfl: I think there was already a bug, but the more the merrier. :)
[07:50] <sabdfl> that's it. i'll set to you, and pendingupload
[07:50] <pitti> bah, this xchat-gnome is annoying, brb
[07:51] <dholbach> morning JaneW
[07:51] <Burgundavia> sabdfl, ogra is waiting on some space images from you for the default screensaver image
[07:51] <Am|NickTaken> *groan*
[07:51] <mjg59> No porn?
[07:51] <JaneW> hi dholbach 
[07:51] <dholbach> pitti: what do you find annoying about it?
[07:51] <Burgundavia> mjg59, might be fun
[07:52] <Am|NickTaken> firefox 1.5.0.1 is going to include lots of extras besides security fixes
[07:52] <Am|NickTaken> it's worse than 1.0.x
[07:52] <pitti> dholbach: I don't see the channels on the bottom of screen and I can't split windows
[07:52] <Burgundavia> Am|NickTaken, has mozilla still not figured out security patches?
[07:52] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: I guess not...
[07:52] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, they are also ending security support for 1.0.x in about april
[07:52] <dholbach> pitti: i got used to the channels on the left side and using {ctrl,alt}-{up,down} already
[07:53] <pitti> dholbach: but I never see when I got a message and such
[07:54] <pitti> dholbach: well, I'd need to get used to a new window layout for working, that is
[07:54] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: that's not good...
[07:54] <dholbach> pitti: i use the notification plugin
[07:55] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, pitti actually swore when he heard that news
[07:55] <dholbach> pitti: (or however it's called) :)
[07:55] <Burgundavia> dholbach, why is notification on by default?
[07:55] <dholbach> Burgundavia: is it?
[07:55] <Burgundavia> dholbach, nope
[07:56] <dholbach> Burgundavia: what is your question? you think it should be?
[07:56] <bytee_> hello folk. who is responsible for the mysql packages in Ubuntu ?
[07:57] <Burgundavia> dholbach, I think it should be installed by default. Gaim does notification by defualt
[07:58] <dholbach> Burgundavia: i had a quick look, seems like it's not something we can 'just' change by default, this would involved some upstream hackery
[07:59] <Burgundavia> dholbach, what about shipping ross burtons python plugin?
[07:59] <Burgundavia> dholbach, http://www.burtonini.com/blog/2005/Apr/05
[07:59] <dholbach> Burgundavia: that's for xchat, not xchat-gnome
[07:59] <dholbach> Burgundavia: and it's packaged already
[08:00] <Burgundavia> dholbach, same backend, should just work (I have not tested it)
[08:00] <dholbach> Burgundavia: and xchat-gnome does have different plugins (some notifications as well)
[08:00] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:03] <dholbach> sf.net's bug tracker is teh suck
[08:03] <Burgundavia> dholbach, apparently they are working on it
[08:04] <dholbach> the sourceforge guys on their bug tracker or the gnome-xchat guys turning some plugins on by default?
[08:04] <Burgundavia> dholbach, the former. I am talking to the x-g guys about the latter
[08:04] <dholbach> Nice.
[08:05] <dholbach> (the sf.net bug tracker just closed my bug, because I didn't report back in 14 days. While I like the feature, i *did* report back in 14 days. :-))
[08:05] <Tm_T> haha
[08:08] <zakame> heya pef
[08:09] <pef> hello zakame :)
[08:11] <Chipzz> ugh
[08:12] <Chipzz> !gnome-utils-- ;P
[08:12] <Chipzz> gnome-utils en gnome-system-tools are both b0rked, shipping files in /var/lib/scrollkeeper
[08:12] <Tm_T> =)
[08:13] <dholbach> Chipzz: I'll look into it later.
[08:13] <Chipzz> which is not a problem if either does so, but it explodes when both do
[08:14] <dholbach> I'm aware of that. Today is just a bit busy, because the tarballs for GNOME 2.13.5 are rolling
[08:14] <Ubugtu> Error: Error getting Gnome bug #2: NotFound
[08:14] <Chipzz> dholbach: I'm not trying to pressure you into anything ;)
[08:14] <mjg59> If we're going to have a bot, can we have a non-stupid bot?
[08:14] <Chipzz> just whining a bit ;)
[08:15] <dholbach> Chipzz: That's what I thought. ;-p
[08:16] <Chipzz> but.. just a stupid idea... couldn't we build a check for that in dh_scrollkeeper, which gives a warning when there are files in /var/lib/scrollkeeper?
[08:17] <dholbach> Chipzz: i suppose both packages are bugged
[08:17] <dholbach> and stuff shouldn't be there at all
[08:17] <Chipzz> what I was proposing catching these kind of bugs at build time
[08:18] <Chipzz> +was somewhere
[08:18] <infinity> Not much point in having debhelper throw warnings.
[08:19] <infinity> However, if it's true and correct that any package that invokes "dh_scrollkeeper" also shouldn't have files in /var/lib/sk, then you could just make dh_scrollkeeper delete /var/lib/sk in the target package.
[08:19] <Chipzz> infinity: (I think) it throws warnings anyway?
[08:19] <Chipzz> infinity: shouldn't that be fixed by giving the right options to make, instead of deleting those files?
[08:20] <infinity> Probably, but if the upstream makefile's buggered, would you rather fix it, or just remove cruft?
[08:20] <Chipzz> maybe I should rephrase: check for presence, if there delete those files and throw warning about it?
[08:20] <infinity> I'm not a desktop guy, I'll let dholbach and seb128 care. :)
[08:21] <Chipzz> infinity: I suppose it's the same kinda stuff as with gconf, where you have to append an option to make install to disable the schema install stuff
[08:23] <Chipzz> anyway, enough whining ;)
[08:39] <mdke> infinity, a new week, a new round of nudging
[08:55] <sivang> morning all
[08:56] <desrt> da
[08:56] <sivang> hey desrt , what's cracking?
[08:56] <desrt> wasting time
[09:03] <Burgundavia> dholbach, https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/28665
[09:03] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 28665: "Bugs from reportbug need to addressed" Fix req. for: launchpad (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Unconfirmed
[09:03] <dholbach> Burgundavia: hm?
[09:04] <Burgundavia> dholbach, reportbugs is currently dropping on ubuntu-users but there is currently on simple fix. This is a bug to address whether or not lp is going to accept those bugs
[09:05] <dholbach> Burgundavia: I agree, that it'd be nice to have it fixed, but I daresay, that I'm not going to be part of the solution.
[09:05] <dholbach> Burgundavia: Why did you think of me? :)
[09:05] <Burgundavia> dholbach, are you not the bug master?
[09:05] <Burgundavia> dholbach, the other solution is to remove reportbugs from ubuntu
[09:06] <siretart> Burgundavia: thats not that easy
[09:06] <Burgundavia> siretart, which isn't? removing reportbugs?
[09:06] <siretart> Burgundavia: currently, the malone email interface REQUIRES a valid gpg signature
[09:06] <siretart> to file new bugs
[09:06] <Burgundavia> siretart, yes, jamesh explained that
[09:06] <Burgundavia> hence why this wasn't resolved easily and needs an lp bug for it
[09:20] <pitti> ogra: gobby & co approved, please seed
[09:23] <pitti> bah, am I the only one whose firefox segfaults?
[09:23] <lifeless> no
[09:23] <lifeless> sabdfls does
[09:23] <Burgundavia> pitti, might be your plugins/extensions
[09:28] <pitti> Burgundavia: I didn't change them since ages ago (not that I would have many)
[09:28] <pitti> $ dchroot -c breezy firefox *grumpf*
[09:28] <pitti> also happens with a clean profile, btw
[09:29] <poningru> pitti: if you are still using 1.0.7 then its probably an actual bug
[09:31] <pitti> poningru: no, I'm using breezy's ffox now since dapper's current one segfaults immediatel
[09:31] <pitti> y
[09:31] <pitti> hi mvo
[09:34] <mvo> hey pitti 
[09:34] <mvo> good morning
[09:36] <poningru> pitti: it may be a good idea to just use 1.5 seperately, with a seperate profile and everything, just dont use the plugins
[09:37] <pitti> poningru: I already tried that
[09:37] <poningru> hmm and it still segfaults?
[09:37] <poningru> hmm
[09:45] <sivang> pitti: morning martin
[09:51] <Mithrandir> hmm, why does the "application foo crashed unexpectedly" say unexpectedly?  Is there any situation where crashes are expected? :-)
[09:58] <mpt> Mithrandir, report a bug
[09:59] <mpt> Mithrandir, the Mac says a program "unexpectedly quit", so whoever wrote that message was probably half-thinking of that
[10:00] <mpt> and Windows has "foo has encountered an error and needs to close"
[10:01] <sivang> "This program has performed an illeagle operation and will be arrested"
[10:01] <mdke> "closed unexpectedly" would work
[10:02] <mpt> yes
[10:03] <mpt> the worst crash message I've ever seen was from a Tcl/Tk app
[10:03] <mpt> "Segmentation violation: child killed"
[10:04] <mpt> (... with a hacksaw!)
[10:04] <Treenaks> mpt: sounds like a headline from a newspaper
[10:05] <sivang> what's up with the scrollkeeper b0rkage ?...
[10:05] <sivang> Preparing to replace gnome-system-tools 1.4.1-0ubuntu2 (using .../gnome-system-tools_2.13.0-0ubuntu1_i386.deb) ...
[10:05] <sivang> Unpacking replacement gnome-system-tools ...
[10:05] <sivang> dpkg - warning, overriding problem because --force enabled:
[10:05] <sivang> for all the locales I have...
[10:05] <sivang>  trying to overwrite `/var/lib/scrollkeeper/en_GB/scrollkeeper_cl.xml', which is also in package gnome-utils
[10:05] <sivang> mpt: lol
[10:05] <dholbach> sivang: aware of that
[10:06] <sivang> dholbach: pakcage specific , or system wide?
[10:06] <dholbach> sivang: that was raised 2 hours ago
[10:06] <dholbach> the former
[10:06] <sivang> dholbach: ah I see, ok, thanks. (I take it there's a bug report already)
[10:07] <dholbach> no, hopefully not - i'm looking into it already :)
[10:08] <sivang> dholbach: lucky you, I was going to file a bug about it :)
[10:30] <Kinnison> Morning
[10:35] <dholbach> sivang: fixed.
[10:36] <sivang> dholbach: cool !
[10:40] <mvo> mjg59: I uploaded a fix for the missing notifications in gnome-power-manager, please let me know if there are any problems with it (and thanks for pointing it out)
[10:41] <mjg59> mvo: Thanks!
[10:41] <mjg59> mvo: What was up with it?
[10:44] <mvo> mjg59: LIBNOITFY_VERSISON was not set in configure.in. I fixed a small glitch in the arrow pointing code as well, should be more accurate now too
[10:46] <ulaas> E: /var/cache/apt/archives/gnome-utils_2.13.4-0ubuntu1_i386.deb: trying to overwrite `/var/lib/scrollkeeper/en_GB/scrollkeeper_cl.xml', which is also in package gnome-system-tools
[10:46] <ulaas> known issue?
[10:47] <slomo> ulaas: should be fixed with the latest gnome-utils upload
[10:47] <ulaas> slomo, recently?
[10:47] <slomo> 2.13.4-0ubuntu2
[10:47] <sivang> ulaas: dholbach already fixed that, I think
[10:47] <mjg59> mvo: Thanks!
[10:48] <slomo> ulaas: btw, can you give me a working browser patch for banshee 0.10.4 when it is released? :)
[10:48] <ulaas> i will report. doing an apt update now.
[10:48] <mvo> mjg59: cheers :)
[10:48] <slomo> ulaas: it isn't build yet... wait an hour :)
[10:48] <ulaas> slomo, i will. i dont know what abock is upto with it. so i will give you mine no worries.
[11:15] <pitti> ogra: yay, vulnerability in tuxpaint :)
[11:15] <Chipzz> ieks
[11:15] <Chipzz> this is ugly
[11:15] <Chipzz> /bin/sh segfaults
[11:16] <Chipzz> /bin/bash works though
[11:16] <viviersf> pitti, cant believe where you find vulnerabilities :/
[11:16] <Treenaks> Chipzz: is /bin/sh /bin/bash, or is /bin/sh some other shell?
[11:17] <pitti> viviersf: I didn't discover that one :) I just have to fix it
[11:18] <Chipzz> Treenaks: /bin/bash
[11:18] <viviersf> pitti, hehe its still bad
[11:18] <viviersf> * ill sploit your pc using tuxpaint * :(
[11:18] <dholbach> sebest: Hello. Would you mind uploading the latest nautilus-share to REVU?
[11:18] <Chipzz> hmmm no
[11:18] <Chipzz> it's dash
[11:24] <Riddell> ogra: still in need of a favour?
[11:27] <Kamion> Riddell: powerpc live CD seems to be hosed on Ubuntu; I think it's unionfs issues but haven't dug into it yet. I'm just going to put that in the errata for Flight 3.
[11:27] <Kamion> Otherwise just doing final testing now
[11:28] <Riddell> I'm burning kubuntu powerpc live now
[11:28] <pitti> Kamion: I debugged this for a while with BenC at Friday evening, and Ben said he would see the problem and it was a kernel issue; do you mean a different problem now?
[11:32] <Kamion> pitti: yeah, it now boots properly but hangs in usplash and can't switch vt
[11:32] <Kamion> so I assume the kernel's oopsed or similar
[11:32] <pitti> *sigh*
[11:32] <Kamion> and s/kernel issue/yaboot issue/ above?
[11:32] <Kamion> (since that's what BenC fixed)
[11:33] <pitti> Kamion: no idea, I talked to BenC for a while, and the last line I read was 'Ah, I see the problem now and will handle it'
[11:33] <pitti> Kamion: probably yaboot then, yes
[11:33] <Kamion> haven't tried booting without splash to see where it breaks
[11:33] <Kamion> Riddell: suspect it'll be the same on both
[11:44] <Mithrandir> Kamion: could we move the "boot from hard drive" menu item so it's visible by default on the current amd64 cds?
[11:45] <Kamion> Mithrandir: yeah, already noticed that - I'll make the area for menu items bigger
[11:45] <Mithrandir> Kamion: thx.
[11:45] <Kamion> will have to shunt the logo up the screen a bit
[11:45] <Yagisan> pitti: ping
[11:46] <pitti> Hi Yagisan 
[11:48] <Riddell> Kamion: kubuntu powerpc live CD hands on "mounting root filesystem"
[11:50] <segfault> who handles ubuntu.com DNS entries?
[11:50] <Znarl> segfault : Myself.
[11:53] <segfault> znarl: seems that br.archive.ubuntu.com is dead
[11:53] <segfault> znarl: can you please add another entry pointing that to archive.ubuntu.com too?
[11:54] <Znarl> segfault : I'll fix it, thanks for letting me know.
[11:54] <segfault> znarl: thanks!
[11:57] <pitti> Hi Diziet 
[11:57] <pitti> wb sabdfl 
[11:57] <Diziet> Morning.
[11:57] <pitti> Diziet: can you reproduce the firefox crash? (it doesn't start at all)
[11:57] <Kamion> Riddell: yeah, that was what I saw
[11:57] <Diziet> Is this the locale problem ?
[11:57] <sabdfl> pitti: ff is screwy for me too
[11:57] <sabdfl> dies on startup often, dies on links too
[11:57] <pitti> it seems to work on ppc, and immediately segfaults on amd64
[11:58] <Diziet> sabdfl: Your symptoms sound like either an extension problem, or the result of one leftover patch.
[11:58] <Diziet> Ah.
[11:58] <pitti> Diziet: I tried without a ~/.mozilla already, same result
[11:58] <Diziet> (leftover patch> from breezy, which I still need to expunge.)
[11:58] <sabdfl> Diziet: fails with or without flash
[11:58] <Diziet> I haven't touched ff since last Friday.
[11:59] <Diziet> But there are problems with the amd build which I have been ignoring last week to get something else done :-).
[11:59] <Diziet> But those problems were to do with the -dev and lack of PIC.  I can't see how it would have just broken now.
[12:00] <Diziet> pitti: without .mozilla> Hmm.  When did it start going wrong ?
[12:02] <pitti> Diziet: it still worked at Friday, then it probably broke after friday's dist-upgrade (but I didn't restart my browser after dist-upgrade)
[12:02] <pitti> Diziet: I noticed the failure on Saturday first
[12:02] <Diziet> You mean this last Friday, the 13th.
[12:02] <pitti> yes
[12:03] <Diziet> So it was working all last week ?
[12:03] <pitti> yes
[12:03] <Diziet> Last ff upload was Thursday the 5th.
[12:03] <Diziet> That's not to say that it's not firefox's fault/.
[12:03] <pitti> yes, I'm sure it's not due to a ffox upload
[12:04] <Diziet> Hmm.  Has anyone reproduced it on i386 ?
[12:04] <pitti> the most plausible explanation might be the glibc multiarch
[12:05] <Diziet> That might well be something to do with it.  I haven't been following that.  Is there somewhere I can read about it ?
[12:05] <infinity> Diziet: Did you have changes lined up to make ffox build happily on amd64?
[12:05] <infinity> (not counting what you're talking about right now)
[12:05] <pitti> hm, shouldn't 'DEBUG=1 firefox' spawn gdb?
[12:06] <Diziet> I have no changes lined up, no, but I was going to look at the problem RSN.
[12:06] <pitti> oh, nm, I found -debug
[12:07] <infinity> Diziet: Were there plans to sync with Debian's firefox? (hey, they changed the source package name finally, too!)
[12:07] <pitti> Diziet: stack trace is utterly nonexistent
[12:08] <Diziet> infinity: Yes, I'm going to synch to it after getting rid of the crufty patch I mentioned above.
[12:08] <StevenK> infinity: To iceweasel? :-P
[12:10] <infinity> Diziet: Kay.  I'd recommend merging before trying to attack the amd64 thing.  I find that upstream bumps can often "magically fix everything" and save you a bunch of hassle. :)
[12:11] <infinity> Diziet: (And we obviously want 1.5final anyway, so..)
[12:11] <Diziet> infinity: Quite (on both counts).
[12:13] <Diziet> Oh, err, duh, this firefox crashing can't possibly be anything recent because it FTBFS on amd64 for a week and a half as already noted.
[12:13] <infinity> Right.
[12:13] <Diziet> The FTBFS is due to the nspr/nss violence, I think.
[12:13] <Diziet> Err, I mean `I guess', really.  But I'll look at it.
[12:16] <infinity> Diziet: If it doesn't get sorted before the sprint, sit down with me and we'll make it go together.
[12:16] <infinity> Diziet: I hope it builds before then, though. :)
[12:17] <Diziet> :-)
[12:18] <infinity> pitti: Getting a useful backtrace from ffox/amd64 yet?
[12:18] <infinity> pitti: I'm curious if it's glibc's fault (or appears to be..)
[12:19] <pitti> infinity: no, I just get a ton of 'no debug symbols', but no trace
[12:19] <infinity> Well, isn't that special..
[12:20] <StevenK> pitti: Deal with libc6-dbg?
[12:21] <pitti> infinity, Kamion: do we still need kernel 2.6.12 in dapper?
[12:22] <pitti> infinity, Kamion: most of the debs want to go to universe, too, and it has open security bugs
[12:22] <infinity> pitti: I'm pretty sure we want it (and the matching lrm-2.6.12) to go away.
[12:22] <pitti> infinity: I'm currently writing a mail with some sync and removal requests to elmo, so I'd include it
[12:23] <infinity> pitti: Can you add "wvdial" to the sync list?.. I requested it >24 hours ago, and I suspect it got lost in the shuffle.
[12:23] <pitti> sure
[12:23] <infinity> pitti: (overwrite okay, they've made their postinst stop being chatty)
[12:25] <Kamion> pitti: I think it's only still there for hppa/ia64; do we know if that's finally been sorted out (initramfs-tools)?
[12:26] <Kamion> infinity: if you happen to be uploading sysvinit, fixing the shell quoting in the dpkg --compare-versions call so that it doesn't spew warnings on initial install would be nice
[12:26] <pitti> no, I don't; I just saw that anastacia wants to drop the debs
[12:26] <infinity> Kamion: Hrm?  initramfs-tools on ia64 was a klibc issue, not a kernel issue, was it not?
[12:27] <Kamion> infinity: yeah, but I think we were keeping 2.6.12 until 2.6.15 was actually bootable
[12:27] <Kamion> (regardless of where the issue was)
[12:27] <infinity> Well, I know klibc is all good on ia64 now.  Or so I've heard (no hardware here to test)
[12:27] <pitti> Kamion: actually it's 'source+binary' demotion; AFAIK hppa and ia64 can keep things in main (they did for krb4)
[12:27] <Kamion> pitti: right, I know the seeds are inconsistent with this
[12:27] <infinity> Kamion: Hadn't planned on a sysvinit upload, but since I just LOVE uploading it, I may as well.
[12:28] <pitti> ok, then I'll leave that for now
[12:28] <pitti> but if we actually need 2.6.12, we should fix the security bugs
[12:28] <Kamion> lamont-away: what's the word on 2.6.15 on hppa/ia64?
[12:28] <Kamion> pitti: we certainly won't be keeping it for dapper ...
[12:29] <janimo> pitti, can you please add xterminal, xfprint, xffm4-icons to the removal list for elmo?
[12:29] <pitti> janimo: bah, just sent the mail, I'll send a followup
[12:30] <janimo> thank you
[12:30] <seb128> is anybody working to fix that?
[12:31] <seb128> (probably not the right chan)
[12:31] <siretart> seb128: do you have access to the mailman admin interface?
[12:31] <pitti> siretart: jdub should
[12:31] <siretart> seb128: you 'just' have to tweak the acls :/
[12:31] <seb128> just for desktop-bugs
[12:31] <siretart> pitti: well, I asked yesterday (or was it even on saturday) and I was told he was already aware of it. now I get doubts..
[12:32] <seb128> jamesh gaves some tips to get mails accepted
[12:32] <seb128> jdub did the change
[12:32] <seb128> but it seems it doesn't work
[12:32] <Znarl> siretart, seb128 : I am fixing the mailman moderation mails issue.
[12:33] <seb128> Znarl: thank you
[12:41] <pitti> infinity: btw, since you just uploaded sysvinit: I think /etc/rcS.d.s20checkroot.sh should be moved to S16
[12:41] <infinity> Well, ia64's eaten through half its backlog... Not bad for the three slowest machines in the DC...
[12:41] <siretart> Znarl: thanks a lot!
[12:41] <pitti> infinity: this would make bootlogd and ifupdown-clean actually work
[12:42] <pitti> infinity: do you see any problems with that?
[12:42] <pitti> (ok, that's initscripts, not sysvinit)
[12:43] <siretart> seb128: are you aware about the gnome-system-tools vs. gnome-utils issue?
[12:43] <janimo> pitti, any problems so far with the swicth to alsa from esd?
[12:43] <janimo> like cards not working?
[12:43] <pitti> janimo: I didn't hear any complaints
[12:43] <pitti> janimo: probably because it automatically falls back to esd if dmix doesn't work
[12:43] <seb128> siretart: yeah, dholbach already fixed it
[12:43] <pitti> janimo: so I don't expect many bugs
[12:44] <siretart> great! :)
[12:44] <janimo> pitti, ah so there's no feedback on which cards need fixing for dmix?
[12:44] <pitti> janimo: not yet, no
[12:44] <pitti> janimo: would be a nice addition to hwdb-client
[12:44] <janimo> indeed
[12:45] <pitti> infinity: indeed, breezy's checkroot was at prio 10
[12:45] <dholbach> seb128: you should probably tell all the people WHO broke it, so they start asking me and not you the next time :) (there's not only seb128 breaking stuff)
[12:45] <seb128> dholbach: I don't break stuff, I debdiff before uploading :p
[12:45] <dholbach> bllllllllllll
[12:45] <seb128> and yeah, blame dholbach for uploading 2 packages with a bunch of autogenerated crap and not noticing :)
[12:47] <Kamion> seb128: speaking of which, CCs of mails about things that affect Flight releases in preparation would be nice
[12:47] <Kamion> I only noticed that I had to rebuild for the pygobject thing because somebody asked about it on ubuntu-devel@ and you answered
[12:48] <seb128> Kamion: there is no rebuild for pygobject, pygtk Depends on it
[12:48] <mjg59> mvo: Yup, that works now
[12:48] <seb128> Kamion: but right... GNOME 2.13.5 this week but no breakage expected
[12:48] <Ubugtu> Error: Error getting Gnome bug #2: NotFound
[12:49] <pitti> haha
[12:49] <Kamion> seb128: pygobject 2.9.0-0ubuntu2 I mean
[12:49] <mjg59> GNOME 4 life
[12:49] <Ubugtu> Error: Error getting Gnome bug #4: NotFound
[12:49] <janimo> mjg59, is it ok to suspend using hal-system-power-suspend directly, or should it go through g-p-m, or dbus requests?
[12:49] <janimo> from a logout dialog
[12:49] <mjg59> janimo: It's ok to do that, but it won't work right now
[12:49] <mjg59> But yeah, that's the correct answer
[12:49] <Kamion> assuming that's what you were referring to by Message-Id: <1137256462.9242.8.camel@localhost>
[12:50] <mjg59> Seveas: Any chance we can make the bot more intelligent?
[12:51] <Kamion> seb128: I'm releasing Flight 3 now, so it doesn't matter for next week, unless there's critical breakage from yesterday that I don't know about ...
[12:51] <seb128> Kamion: pygtk.py was misnamed (used to be an alternative, so was renamed, I've cleared the altenative and forget to drop the rename)
[12:51] <mjg59> janimo: It just needs someone to write the code for hal to run stuff as root
[12:51] <seb128> Kamion: no, current archive should be fine ... should be stop GNOME 2.13.5 uploads for now?
[12:51] <Kamion> right, point is it was fairly critical breakage in Friday's CD images which were release candidates
[12:51] <Ubugtu> Error: Error getting Gnome bug #2: NotFound
[12:51] <Kamion> seb128: no, go ahead, I've got the images
[12:51] <seb128> time to get flight3 done?
[12:51] <seb128> oki
[12:52] <janimo> mjg59, right now it works with sudo, you mean it needs work to run as normal user?
[12:52] <Seveas> mjg59, only by reducing the free-form of the inpu it allows
[12:52] <mjg59> janimo: Mm? What works with sudo?
[12:52] <janimo> hal-system-power-xxx
[12:52] <seb128> Kamion: point taken, I will mail you next time in such case :)
[12:52] <janimo> from the command line
[12:52] <mjg59> Seveas: At the moment, if it were a person I'd be punching it in the face
[12:52] <Kamion> seb128: thanks
[12:52] <seb128> np
[12:52] <mjg59> (Except I wouldn't, as that would be against the CoC)
[12:53] <Seveas> mjg59, the gn.ome 2.13.5 is resolvable (will do that asap), but 'gn.ome 4 life' will always match
[12:53] <Kamion> Seveas: reducing free-form> works for me
[12:53] <mjg59> janimo: Oh, right. No, you should never be calling that script directly
[12:53] <mjg59> The right thing to do is to call hal via dbus, which currently won't work
[12:53] <Kamion> after all, we can always ask it directly in case it didn't understand something
[12:53] <mjg59> (But will do before release)
[12:53] <janimo> aha,ok then
[12:53] <JRe> hello everybody!
[12:53] <mjg59> Seveas: That would be a lot better, thanks!
[12:54] <JRe> anyone else than me has trouble to launch SWT java programs (azureus, eclipse)
[12:54] <janimo> mjg59, and then it will as normal user, no sudo needed rigth?
[12:54] <jk_work> mjg59: Are you familiar with the new NetworkManager which will do WPA?
[12:54] <mjg59> janimo: Yup
[12:54] <mjg59> jk_work: Yup
[12:54] <mjg59> We're looking into integrating it
[12:54] <jk_work> Will it also let you configure open/shared WEP?
[12:55] <jk_work> Reason I ask: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=327073
[12:55] <Ubugtu> Gnome bug 327073: "Handle shared WEP key magic for Atheros cards" Product: NetworkManager, Component: Default, Severity: enhancement, Assigned to: dcbw@redhat.com, Status: UNCONFIRMED
[12:55] <jk_work> I spent more than a day fighting madwifi - there's some magic you need if
[12:55] <jk_work> the network uses shared keys.
[12:56] <jk_work> (which are deprecated btw)
[12:56] <mjg59> jk_work: I have no idea
[12:56] <mjg59> We'll be using madwifi-ng
[12:57] <mjg59> (Whether that makes it more sensible or not, I don't know)
[12:57] <jk_work> It would be better if users didn't have to worry about driver idiosyncracies.
[12:58] <jk_work> I guess it's debatable whether you should abstract over them or make sure
[12:58] <jk_work> that drivers fix them.
[12:58] <mjg59> madwifi-ng should be in lrm this week
[12:58] <segfault> is flight 3 already released?
[12:59] <mjg59> Actually, that's a point...
[12:59] <mjg59> infinity3: I'll just go and set that machine up now
[12:59] <Seveas> it'll stop matching on version numbers with dots now, I'll quiet the 'not found' errors
[12:59] <segfault> i guess bug #28674 is nonsense.
[01:00] <Kamion> segfault: dude, wait for the announcement
[01:01] <Kamion> I don't silently release things.
[01:02] <segfault> kamion: i know, i just asked because i am walking through malone and saw that bug #28674, which states that the link to flight3 is broken
[01:02] <tseng> segfault: very overeager
[01:02] <Kamion> segfault: bug rejected
[01:03] <segfault> heh
[01:07] <netstar> Why does ubuntu choose non-gnu versions of tools which already have gnu alternative or option for that function.  Like inetutils for example.
[01:08] <Yagisan> netstar: maybe the others are a better tool ?
[01:08] <jdthood> Gotta question.  Will openpty(3) attempt to open a unix98 PTY or will it only attempt to open BSD PTYs?
[01:08] <netstar> Yagisan, is that the reason?
[01:09] <infinity> jdthood: It'll try both, I believe, but I'm not positive.
[01:09] <Yagisan> netstar: I have no idea - hence the question mark.
[01:09] <Kamion> netstar: others are better-tested and more mature
[01:09] <Kamion> GNU inetutils is relatively new compared to the other inetds available
[01:09] <netstar> Kamion, that answers my questions.
[01:10] <netstar> thanks guys
[01:10] <jdthood> infinity: I thought so too, until I read openpty(3) and pty(7).  Neither gives a definite answer, but I am left with the impression that openpty(3) only looks for legacy PTYs.
[01:10] <jdthood> Guess I'd better go read the source.
[01:10] <Kamion> of course it might be that we need to look at our choice of inetd, but not for the sole reason that "there's a GNU alternative"
[01:10] <infinity> jdthood: Easy enough to find out.  Delete all your BSD ptys, make sure you have /dev/ptmx and a mounted /dev/pts, and see what it does. :)
[01:11] <netstar> Kamion, the GNU question, I feel, should be put into consideration as well as pragmatic reasons as well of course.  I'd like to see more distributions choosing GNU tools over other alternatives as long as there wasn't too much of an impact on users.  
[01:12] <Kamion> netstar: BSD versions of tools are perfectly good too
[01:12] <Kamion> and often others
[01:12] <infinity> jdthood: Hrm, pty(7) does seem to imply that they require different APIs, though.
[01:12] <netstar> I think GNU tools should be given preference.
[01:12] <Kamion> I wouldn't want to see Ubuntu choosing something *just* because it has GNU stamped on it.
[01:12] <segfault> will LiveCDPersistence work with FAT too?
[01:12] <Kamion> netstar: no, the *best* tools should be given preference.
[01:12] <infinity> netkit and iputils are both mature and proven.
[01:13] <netstar> Kamion, of course not.  But if you had three tools, equally as good as each other, GNU should be chosen.
[01:13] <netstar> This is my belief anyway.
[01:13] <Kamion> netstar: perhaps, but that is rarely the case
[01:13] <Yagisan> netstar: no it should not
[01:13] <netstar> true Kamion 
[01:13] <netstar> Yagisan, perhaps if the gnubuntu project ever gets going we'll have the answers to these debates.
[01:14] <Yagisan> netstar: the best non-propritery tool should be chosen, regardles of if it is PD, BSD, or GPL
[01:14] <Kamion> it seems perfectly reasonable to have a derivative of Ubuntu that uses GNU tools for everything possible
[01:14] <Kamion> if nothing else it would probably be pretty useful to the GNU project
[01:14] <Yagisan> netstar: otherwise, we would still be waiting for the gnu kernel to arrive (how many years now ?)
[01:14] <jdub> doko: twisted 2.1 all of a sudden? :)
[01:14] <netstar> Yagisan, you have the GNU/Linux kernel.
[01:15] <Kamion> er, dude, no, it's the Linux kernel
[01:15] <Yagisan> netstar: no, the kernel is linux
[01:15] <Kamion> and the GNU/Linux system
[01:15] <netstar> :P sorry my bad, was getting overly zealous
[01:15] <Yagisan> netstar: most core utils are from the gnu project, but you could (with effort) make a BSD/Linux system
[01:15] <netstar> So can distributions such as ubuntu be considered GNU/Linux?
[01:16] <jdub> yes
[01:16] <Mithrandir> Yagisan: mastodon linux, f.e.
[01:16] <jdub> linux + gnu libc == gnu/linux (in technical terms)
[01:16] <netstar> are the BSD guys using glibc?
[01:17] <Mithrandir> no
[01:17] <Mithrandir> at least, most aren't.
[01:17] <StevenK> I thought OpenBSD were trying to?
[01:17] <tseng> StevenK: erm
[01:17] <Seveas> it can also be the other way around: GNU/kfreebsd for example
[01:17] <Kamion> StevenK: that was Debian GNU/OpenBSD, I think, not OpenBSD proper
[01:17] <Seveas> no linux at all in there
[01:17] <StevenK> Which is what I meant.
[01:17] <tseng> StevenK: OpenBSD refuses to use anything !BSD where possible
[01:18] <Kamion> tseng: there was a port of Debian to run on the OpenBSD kernel, and they were trying to port glibc
[01:18] <tseng> Kamion: would make more sense.
[01:18] <Kamion> never got completed though
[01:18] <StevenK> Until it got dropped due to Fenrar saying "Linux is about as secure as OpenBSD." :-)
[01:21] <Kamion> ogra: what's the status of Edubuntu CD images?
[01:23] <jdthood> infinity: stracing a test program, I find that it does first attempt to open /dev/ptmx and to statfs /dev/pts.
[01:24] <doko> jdub: needed for zope 3.2
[01:24] <jdub> doko: d'oh. flumotion doesn't work with it yet. 8) oh well, they're looking into it. no biggie.
[01:25] <infinity> jdthood: Spiffy.
[01:26] <infinity> jdthood: So the API for UNIX98 PTYs described in pty(7) is likely only required if you want to do interesting things that openpty() doesn't support...
[01:26] <StevenK> Ouch. transcode is big.
[01:26] <infinity> jdthood: Or something.
[01:27] <jdthood> infinity: Right.  Or if you don't want to use legacy PTYs because of security concerns.
[01:27] <infinity> jdthood: That amounts to the same thing, I suppose (spiffy features, etc)
[01:32] <Kamion> maswan: can you kick off a mirror of /releases/dapper/flight-3/ and /kubuntu/releases/dapper/flight-3/ please?
[01:45] <ogra> Kamion, i still need a rebuild of the amd64 install iso ...
[01:45] <ogra> could you trigger one ? 
[01:46] <Kamion> have you cut down the seeds or whatever it was?
[01:46] <ogra> seems that ppc live is broken anyway ...
[01:46] <Kamion> yes
[01:46] <ogra> yup and i dropped out postgres, since the locale errors persist
[01:46] <Kamion> really? those should have been fixed end of last week
[01:46] <infinity> Kamion: Oh, do all the important installations of germinate (jackass... little?  I dunno) speak %sourcepkg now?
[01:46] <Kamion> after I fixed localechooser
[01:46] <Kamion> infinity: jackass doesn't, but I poked elmo about it
[01:46] <ogra> its still there
[01:47] <Kamion> ogra: bah. please send me syslog
[01:47] <infinity> Kamion: Kay.  Will the world blow up if I start committing (huge list)->%sourcepkg cleanups, or should I wait for jackass to play nicely?
[01:47] <Kamion> if you could put postgresql back in after Flight 3 so that we can diagnose these, I'd appreciate it
[01:47] <Kamion> infinity: best to wait, anastacia will get complicated if you do that and people aren't aware of the issue
[01:48] <Kamion> ogra: amd64 install build kicked off
[01:48] <infinity> Check.  Will wait, then.
[01:48] <ogra> Kamion, thanks 
[01:48] <infinity> Kamion: Maybe we can have a quick "Everyone gather around a table so we can put justification comments next to each and every seed entry" session at the sprint.
[01:48] <ogra> Kamion, err, the others as well then , postgres is still in the old ones from yesterday 
[01:49] <ogra> Kamion, if one of seb128's uploads breaks the current ones we can fall back on them ...
[01:49] <Kamion> infinity: sure, would help
[01:49] <ogra> them == yesterdays
[01:49] <jdub> Kamion: FirstAgainstTheWall :-)
[01:49] <Kamion> ogra: gah, ok
[01:50] <Kamion> running
[01:50] <seb128> ogra: what broke what?
[01:50] <ogra> i think i need access to little and the build scripts one day ...
[01:50] <ogra> i'd have done it yesterday night with less danger of breakage
[01:51] <Kamion> sure, that can probably be arranged at some point
[01:51] <ogra> seb128, no idea yet ... but if an essential desktop package is building, my isos are broken ...
[01:55] <maswan> Kamion: mirroring now
[01:55] <Kamion> maswan: thanks
[01:59] <Lathiat> hrm another /var/run bug, mysqld starts but the dir has wrong perms
[01:59] <Lathiat> i dunno, this /var/run on tmpfs thing has be a bit irked its bringing up lots of bugs and has the potential to break alot of stuff ?
[01:59] <Lathiat> even stuff outside packages
[02:03] <jdthood> Lathiat: Debian is moving toward supporting tmpfs at /var/run, so the bugs have to be fixed sometime.
[02:04] <Kamion> ogra: done
[02:04] <ogra> thanks
[02:05] <ogra> Kamion, hmm, not on cdimage
[02:05] <jdthood> Lathiat: It will take time for Debian to implement support for tmpfs at /var/run.  (It requires adding mkdirs to initscripts, of course.)   Ubuntu folks can help by reporting bugs in the Debian BTS.
[02:07] <hunger> Could somebody please look in malone #28559? That problem is easy enough to fix and prevents lo from being brought up on boot.
[02:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 28559: "ifupdown-clean script fails" Fix req. for: ifupdown (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Unconfirmed http://launchpad.net/bugs/28559
[02:07] <ogra> Kamion, do you need to copy them manually ? nothing on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/
[02:10] <infinity> Lathiat: Can you mail me (adconrad@ubuntu.com) a reminder about the MySQL /var/run issue?  I'll fix it in both Debian and Ubuntu ASAP.
[02:10] <\sh> infinity: heya..did you get my question about gnotime?
[02:12] <infinity> \sh: Erm, what's the question, exactly?  The build-deps are uninstallable.
[02:12] <ogra> seb128, somehow i cant change the icon theme on the flight3 installs, known issue ?
[02:13] <Kamion> ogra: sorry, I broke publish-daily by mistake. Fixed (well, worked around), and the images are there now.
[02:13] <ogra> thanks :)
[02:13] <Kamion> still looks oversized though
[02:14] <ogra> hrm ... i dropped 25M of gcompris sound packages and the whole postgresql
[02:14] <\sh> infinity: well..apt-get install libgnomeui-dev says differently in my dapper chroot, that's why I'm asking
[02:15] <infinity> \sh: apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true install debhelper libgtkhtml3.6-dev scrollkeeper libgnomeui-dev autotools-dev guile-1.6-dev cdbs libgail-dev libqof-dev libxt-dev libgcrypt11-dev libgnutls-dev libxml-parser-perl libgda2-dev
[02:15] <ogra> seb128, somehow i cant change the icon theme on the flight3 installs, known issue ?
[02:16] <\sh> infinity: grr...yes...I know I forgot something...*bangingheadondesk*
[02:16] <infinity> \sh: And now that I'm done "teaching a man to fish", note the conflict between libgnutls11-dev and libgnutls-dev, both being installed.
[02:16] <ogra> seb128, looks like gnome-settings-daemon isnt changing accordingly to the theme selection
[02:16] <\sh> infinity: yes..trying to fix this :)
[02:16] <ogra> and it doesnt happen on upgraded systems
[02:17] <seb128_> ogra: no
[02:17] <ogra> i'll look if it still happens on the current builds
[02:24] <ogra> seb128, ah, nautilus picks up the icon change, only gtk doesnt 
[02:37] <lamont-away> Kamion: ia64 has uploaded, checking on hppa
[02:39] <lamont-away> Kamion: and despite the work holiday today, I'll be visiting the office to add another disk to the &*%)& buildd that keeps running out of disk space.
[02:43] <ogra> hmm, seb128, Kamion whats the reason for having gstreamer 0.8 and gstream 0.10 on the CD ?
[02:43] <seb128> because not all apps have been ported yet
[02:44] <ogra> hrm... ok
[02:44] <ogra> might be the reason that my amd64 iso explodes
[02:44] <dholbach> ogra: there are surely some other reasons as well :-p
[02:45] <ogra> dholbach, i dropped averything i could now, and its still oversized
[02:45] <ogra> dholbach, in breezy i had 30MB free ...
[02:45] <infinity> lamont-away: Kamion was less asking "are the kernels building" and more "do we still need 2.6.12 on ia64/hppa, or can we now boot 2.6.15 on those arches and kick 2.6.12 out of the archive?"
[02:45] <dholbach> you added some stuff since then, right? :)
[02:46] <ogra> nope
[02:46] <lamont-away> infinity: ah, ok.
[02:46] <ogra> its exactly the same software selection
[02:46] <ogra> and apparently its fine on i386 and powerpc ... 
[02:46] <ogra> only borked on amd64
[02:47] <infinity> lamont-away: The changelog of Debian's klibc leads me to believe that ia64 and hppa should both be well-supported now (well, ia64 builds statically, eww, but should work)
[02:48] <lamont-away> infinity: which version in debian?
[02:48] <infinity> lamont-away: I think we'll need a merge to get the hppa support going in Ubuntu, but otherwise should be okay.  Might be nice if you could test, by building Debian's klibc on dapper/hppa and letting me know if it works for you..
[02:48] <infinity> lamont-away: 1.1.16-1
[02:48] <lamont-away> ah, could be
[02:49] <lamont-away> and I expect that has hppa stuff in it... 1.1.15-1 was borked, but claimed otherwise....
[02:49] <lamont-away> eep.  must run
[02:51] <ogra> Kamion, did you look at the ubuntu isos ? apparently something thinks there as well that the isos are oversized ...
[02:51] <ogra> (amd64 that is)
[02:51] <ogra> even if its only 658MB and nothing shows up in the report
[02:52] <Kamion> ogra: yeah, I know they're oversized
[02:53] <ogra> but why is it ?
[02:53] <Kamion> I'm not going to look into it just now
[02:53] <Kamion> why? there's just too much stuff there
[02:53] <Kamion> please don't ask why, sounds like our six-year-old ... :-)
[02:53] <Kamion> "it just is"
[02:53] <ogra> yes, i know, but we dont have any amd64 specific stuff that could cause such a huge oversizing ...
[02:53] <Kamion> sorry, I don't know and cannot check just now
[02:59] <ogra> hrm, seems kdeedu grew by ~10MB  between breezy and dapper
[03:01] <infinity> ogra: Binaries on 64-bit arches (amd64, ia64, alpha) tend to be a bit fatter than binaries on other arches.
[03:01] <infinity> ogra: So, as a rule, the amd64 CDs will always be bigger (if they have the same package selection)
[03:01] <Mithrandir> it's all the extra bits.  They're _heavy_, you know.
[03:01] <ogra> infinity, yes, but i dropped off ~30MB for amd64 already, i cant imagine that the difference is *this* big 
[03:02] <Lathiat> is alpha entirely 64bit?
[03:02] <tseng> Lathiat: yes.
[03:02] <Mithrandir> Lathiat: yes
[03:02] <Lathiat> hrm, cool
[03:02] <ogra> i.e. all gcompris-sound packages ...
[03:02] <Lathiat> didnt know that
[03:09] <pitti> Riddell: ping
[03:22] <maswan> Kamion: ubuntu done, rsyncing kubuntu now
[03:23] <Mez> sladen: ing - /query
[03:23] <Mez> s/ing/ping/
[03:28] <Riddell> pitti: hi
[03:28] <pitti> Riddell: I'm a bit puzzled about k3b-i18n main inclusion
[03:28] <pitti> Riddell: as soon as we put it into main, it will be empty
[03:28] <sladen> Mez has just been shown a picture of sladen's sister+brother by new housemate.  What a small/strange/mad/world...
[03:29] <pitti> Riddell: and don't we already include k3b translations into kde language packs?
[03:29] <pitti> Riddell: I wrote code for that ages ago
[03:29] <Mez> sladen: indeed :D
[03:29] <sivang> sladen: do you have it online somewhere? :)
[03:30] <Riddell> pitti: if k3b translations are already included then that's fine
[03:30] <ogra> YOU APPROVED GOBBY !!!!
[03:31] <ogra> yippie !
[03:31] <ogra> :-D
[03:31] <sladen> sivang: I don't know.  It's Mez's housemate that has the photos.  Apparently one of them has a pen up their nose, so maybe best if they weren't
[03:31] <pitti> well, I'm still not in love with obby TBH
[03:31] <ogra> pitti, forward the bugs to me, i'll care
[03:31] <pitti> ogra: but if you need it for edubuntu, my gut feeling is hardly enough to keep it in universe :)
[03:31] <Riddell> pitti: looks like we do, ignore that main inclusion report then
[03:31] <pitti> Riddell: ok, thanks
[03:31] <pitti> Riddell: I'll note that on the page
[03:32] <freeflying_> Riddell:  how about the skim and scim maininclusionreport?
[03:34] <Riddell> freeflying_: pitti hasn't reviewed it yet, I'm sure he will soon, but there's the other main inclusion report that need written that I e-mailed you about
[03:34] <pitti> yes, I'm reviewing some reports currently, but I won't be able to process them all today
[03:34] <freeflying_> Riddell: y 
[03:41] <janimo> pitti, thanks for the reviews :)
[03:41] <pitti> you're welcome, sorry for the delays
[03:41] <janimo> np
[03:42] <freeflying_> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-cjk-testers
[04:01] <ulaas> gaim crashes when try to log to msn account on my dapper laptop.
[04:02] <ulaas> gdb output is
[04:02] <ulaas> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
[04:02] <ulaas> 0xb77737df in wcscoll_l () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6
[04:02] <pitti> janimo: xfprint did not see an update to 4.2.3?
[04:02] <janimo> pitti, is one of those I asked for removal from the archive
[04:02] <pitti> oh, I see
[04:02] <janimo> it is superseded by xfprint4
[04:03] <janimo> the former was synced from a non-debian repo before hoary
[04:03] <janimo> hmm I hope I did not misspell it on the queue page, it should be xfprint4
[04:03] <pitti> that's right
[04:04] <pitti> just the name of the page is wrong/misleading
[04:04] <pitti> but don't worry about that
[04:04] <janimo> ok, thanks
[04:06] <freeflying_> anyone can give me some suggestion on how to choose locels in dapper ?
[04:07] <pitti> freeflying_: the language selector should be able to
[04:07] <freeflying_> pitti:  it seems they are all set to utf-8 defaultly
[04:08] <pitti> right, that's what Ubuntu is optimized for
[04:08] <freeflying_> pitti: if I want to use another one, what can I do ?
[04:08] <pitti> freeflying_: you can add a new one with 'sudo locale-gen en_US' (for example)
[04:09] <pitti> freeflying_: I'm afraid there is no gui ATM to generate non-UTF-8 locales
[04:09] <pitti> freeflying_: why do you need one?
[04:10] <freeflying_> pitti: I just wonder , you know there are 4 locales about zh_CN , so someone would like to use another instead of utf-8\
[04:10] <pitti> freeflying_: I don't have any experience with Asian languages; we have 3 locales for European languages, too, but the old latin ones are superseded by UTF-8
[04:11] <pitti> so at least for latin languages few people will want non-UTF-8 nowadays
[04:11] <pitti> freeflying_: is that different for Asian languages?
[04:12] <ogra_> Kamion, did you already announce flight3 ? i only get 5K/s from cdimage ... 
[04:12] <pitti> freeflying_: I'm still hoping that the concept of an 'encoding' will eventually disappear in the future
[04:12] <pitti> freeflying_: (well, not the concept, but there should be just one)
[04:12] <freeflying_> pitti: you know that utf-8 is not supported by windows
[04:12] <pitti> hm?
[04:12] <pitti> no, I don't
[04:12] <pitti> on the few occasions I saw windows in the last years, it did
[04:12] <freeflying_> pitti: and manyone should exchange file with windows user ,and window user are using gbk 
[04:13] <Kamion> ogra_: no, waiting for the ftp.acc.umu.se mirror to complete
[04:13] <freeflying_> pitti: so maybe someone would chosse zh_CN-GBK or orthers
[04:13] <pitti> freeflying_: that's odd; most files I got from win users had utf8 file names; maybe that's different for e. g. Chinese Windows users?
[04:14] <mgalvin> Kamion: will the release be today, i am finishing up a few more DapperFlight3 updates
[04:14] <pitti> freeflying_: yes, I see the point
[04:14] <Kamion> mgalvin: yes
[04:14] <Kamion> rush
[04:14] <mgalvin> ok
[04:15] <freeflying_> pitti: : and houw about the maininclusionreport of ttf-arphic-iming and ukai now 
[04:15] <pitti> freeflying_: since xdelta isn't required any more, they are just fine; they are in 'approved' state for very long now
[04:16] <pitti> freeflying_: i. e. someone just needs to promote and seed them
[04:16] <freeflying_> pitti: nice
[04:16] <freeflying_> pitti: who is in charge on seed in ubuntu ?
[04:17] <pitti> freeflying_: nobody in particular
[04:17] <pitti> freeflying_: but it should be ack'ed by mdz or Kamion preferably
[04:17] <freeflying_> pitti: hope that will be done before release 
[04:17] <pitti> yes, sure
[04:17] <pitti> freeflying_: it's mainly a matter of CD space, I guess
[04:18] <pitti> freeflying_: in general we want as many fonts as make sense, but CD space is always precious and limited, so we need to balance
[04:18] <freeflying_> pitti: but it can remove the font in CD now about chinese 
[04:18] <pitti> freeflying_: oh, that'd be nice
[04:18] <pitti> which package is that?
[04:19] <ulaas> should i report gaim bug in launchpad?
[04:19] <pitti> freeflying_: does exchanging the package require any fontconfig changes or similar?
[04:19] <freeflying_> pitti: ttf-arphic-bkai00mp
[04:20] <freeflying_> pitti: we just test on fontconfig
[04:20] <janimo> ulaas, if it occurs with ubuntu's gaim package yes
[04:20] <pitti> freeflying_: if you confirm that merely installing the package (and dropping the other one) DTRT, I'm happy to change the seeds
[04:20] <freeflying_> pitti: ttf-arphic-bsmi00lp  ttf-arphic-gbsn00lp ttf-arphic-gkai00mp
[04:21] <freeflying_> pitti: just a moment 
[04:22] <pitti> freeflying_: no hurry :)
[04:25] <pitti> janimo: hm, why does xfce4-utils call ivman, but doesn't depend on it?
[04:25] <janimo> pitti, hmm my fault
[04:26] <janimo> I'll add it
[04:26] <janimo> thanks
[04:26] <pitti> ok, thanks
[04:26] <pitti> I approve the report under the assumption that it gets fixed soon
[04:26] <janimo> ok
[04:27] <freeflying_> pitti: the configure about umingand ukai have been submitted to fonconfig upstream
[04:28] <pitti> freeflying_: so there are necessary changes? we can put them into Ubuntu immediately as soon as we switch
[04:28] <pitti> freeflying_: also, will replacing the old fonts with the new ones work equally well for Korean, japanese, etc., too?
[04:29] <freeflying_> pitti: these fonts are for chinese 
[04:29] <pitti> ah, I see: 'Support for CNS 11643, GB 18030, Japanese and Korean is under heavy development'
[04:30] <freeflying_> pitti: will not affect korean and japanese 
[04:30] <pitti> ok, wonderful
[04:30] <desrt> pitti; congrats
[04:30] <pitti> desrt: what for?
[04:30] <desrt> pitti; death to the hal-mounting :)
[04:30] <pitti> death to the thread, rather
[04:31] <desrt> christian just closed the bug WONTFIX
[04:31] <pitti> oh, that reminds me... sjoerd? any progress?
[04:31] <pitti> desrt: oh, in g-v-m or g-vfs?
[04:31] <desrt> gvfs
[04:31] <pitti> heh, yay
[04:31] <seb128> desrt: what bug?
[04:31] <desrt> seb128; someone proposed that we u/mount over hal
[04:31] <seb128> he closed a bug with "We have davidz gnome-mount support in gnome-vfs HEAD so I guess this bug is
[04:31] <seb128> obsolete. "
[04:31] <desrt> this one
[04:32] <seb128> it uses gnome-mount
[04:32] <seb128> is that good or not?
[04:32] <desrt> i don't know
[04:32] <pitti> desrt: hm, that uses hal's mounting then
[04:32] <desrt> BUT BUT BUT
[04:32] <maswan> Kamion: done
[04:32] <pitti> seb128: it's not
[04:32] <seb128> what I though
[04:32] <desrt> gnome-mount is a great spot to put a graphical unmount progress indicator
[04:32] <seb128> :)
[04:32] <maswan> Kamion: enjoy your flight-3
[04:32] <desrt> :D
[04:32] <seb128> desrt: Manny commented saying it should be done by nautilus
[04:32] <pitti> right, but right now it's hal -> g-v-m -> hal -> gnome-mount -> hal -> mount
[04:32] <seb128> so icon are removed from desktop at right time too etc
[04:33] <pitti> instead of hal (unpriv'ed) -> g-v-m -> pmount
[04:33] <desrt> seb128; gnome-mount explicitly gets passed DISPLAY with the expectation that it will show UI
[04:33] <pitti> (right now == upstream, not in Ubuntu)
[04:33] <desrt> seb128; and nautilus should just wait until gnome-mount (or whatever) terminates to remove the icon
[04:34] <seb128> pitti: they use gnome-mount as an alternative to mount I think
[04:34] <seb128> like we do for pmount
[04:34] <seb128> just listed as a known binary
[04:34] <pitti> yes, I think so, too
[04:35] <desrt> important difference is that gnome-mount gets the environment.  pmount does not.
[04:35] <pitti> TBH, gnome-mount is very young code, and UVF is the day after tomorrow, so I'd rather stay with pmount for dapper
[04:35] <Riddell> maswan: kubuntu mirrored?
[04:35] <desrt> pitti; right.  but i think we can abuse the gnome-mount hook
[04:35] <maswan> Riddell: yes
[04:35] <pitti> desrt: I agree that using sth like gnome-mount to read gconf and iteract with the user is a great idea
[04:35] <Riddell> maswan: great, thanks
[04:36] <pitti> desrt: so my favourite for dapper would be gnome-mount -> pmount and leave hal unpriv'ed as it is now
[04:36] <desrt> pitti; ie: to display the unmount progress
[04:36] <maswan> Riddell: http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/dapper/flight-3/
[04:36] <maswan> enjoy
[04:36] <pitti> it's just too late to introduce such drastic changes into dapper now IMHO
[04:36] <pitti> desrt: yes, that would rock
[04:36] <desrt> seb128; nautilus for unmount progress indication really doesn't work
[04:36] <desrt> seb128; think drivemount applet (possibly others?)
[04:37] <pitti> desrt: how do you want to get data for a real progress indicator?
[04:37] <desrt> pitti; i have an ancient patch on bugzilla
[04:37] <pitti> desrt: a mere 'please wait' symbol/dialog would be easy
[04:37] <sjoerd> pitti: you should see hal priv. seperation patch tonight :)
[04:37] <desrt> pitti; it uses Dirty: field from /proc/meminfo
[04:37] <pitti> desrt: so the kernel exports the state of cache flushing?
[04:37] <pitti> oh, cool
[04:37] <desrt> pitti; it's a bit of a hack
[04:37] <desrt> pitti; but in most cases Dirty: will probably be mostly from your flashdrive mount 
[04:37] <pitti> desrt: oh, that's just the total dirty blocks, not the #blocks for the device you unmount, right?
[04:38] <seb128> we should probably do the hack thing for dapper
[04:38] <seb128> that's not a nice bug the umount one
[04:38] <desrt> pitti; right.  i don't know how to get device-specific info :(
[04:38] <seb128> it bites quite a bunch of people
[04:38] <pitti> desrt: me neither, that's why I wondered
[04:38] <desrt> pitti; we could probably add love to the kernel :D
[04:38] <pitti> seb128: I think we can do an easy workaround if everything else fails
[04:38] <KoruptPryde> is there currently a known bug with wireless in the newest dapper updates?
[04:39] <pitti> seb128: we can just mount the device r/o, and then umount it
[04:39] <pitti> desrt: ... which would be?
[04:39] <desrt> sync mount :)
[04:39] <pitti> bwah, no
[04:39] <pitti> it bit us once, that's enough
[04:39] <desrt> fwiw, my code on bugzilla calls sync()
[04:39] <desrt> instead of readonly remounting
[04:39] <pitti> that shoudl work as well
[04:40] <desrt> so it might do more committing than required
[04:40] <pitti> (but again syncs all drives)
[04:40] <desrt> well.. think if you have 2 usb flash drives
[04:40] <desrt> and want to unmount one
[04:40] <pitti> desrt: do you see a problem with remount -ro, and then umount?
[04:40] <desrt> you're now using up the bus speed for both :(
[04:40] <desrt> pitti; yes.
[04:40] <desrt> pitti; if someone starts using the files again while the FS is ro then the umount will fail
[04:40] <desrt> pitti; so you'll be half-way unmounted
[04:41] <desrt> pitti; but other than that, i like it
[04:41] <pitti> . o O {chmod 0 /media/usbdisk}
[04:41] <desrt> that would change the root directory permission of the mount itself
[04:41] <pitti> right, not that in particular, but maybe something similar
[04:41] <desrt> in the case of FAT it would probably do nothing :)
[04:42] <desrt> well
[04:42] <desrt> you know umount -l?
[04:42] <pitti> yes
[04:42] <pitti> pumount even supports that
[04:42] <desrt> maybe we can figure out something like that
[04:42] <pitti> but it's nto what we want
[04:42] <desrt> detach from the filesystem then do the rest in the background
[04:42] <pitti> we want the drive stay in /etc/mtab as long as it's syncing
[04:42] <pitti> that's what g-vfs etc. look for
[04:42] <desrt> uh.  why do i call sync()?
[04:42] <desrt> hold a sec.
[04:43] <desrt> ok.  i don't
[04:43] <desrt> i just unmount... which forces a sync anyway
[04:43] <desrt> why remount readonly?
[04:43] <desrt> indead of just unmounting right away
[04:44] <desrt> i mean.... that will provide us with the sync we need implicitly...
[04:44] <pitti> desrt: it's just to leave the mount in /proc/mounts (or /etc/mtab, or whatever g-vfs looks for)
[04:44] <desrt> aahhh
[04:44] <desrt> so the icon stays
[04:44] <pitti> so that the icons don't disappear
[04:44] <pitti> yes
[04:45] <desrt> tunnelvision.
[04:46] <pitti> desrt: well, actually it's both
[04:46] <desrt> does umount() block?
[04:46] <sjoerd> pitti: doesn't r-o mounting also error if the device is in use ?
[04:46] <pitti> desrt: the program does at least
[04:46] <desrt> pitti; ok... so why don't we do the more sane thing
[04:47] <desrt> pitti; just modify umount not to nuke the mtab entry until the last second
[04:47] <pitti> sjoerd: yes, but that's not different from normal umount, is it?
[04:47] <pitti> desrt: WFM
[04:48] <pitti> desrt: however, I'm not sure whether /proc/mounts or /etc/mtab is the important file
[04:48] <desrt> right.  i'm just asking david zeuthen how hal works :)
[04:48] <pitti> /etc/mtab is such an ugly invention
[04:48] <sjoerd> yeah /proc
[04:48] <desrt> ya.  i wouldn't mind seeing /etc/mtab disappear
[04:49] <pitti> I would actively welcome it
[04:49] <desrt> or at least not live in /etc
[04:49] <desrt> you'd have loved my gentoo install.  it was pretty hardcore :)
[04:49] <pitti> ln -s /proc/mounts /etc/mtab breaks various things for me
[04:49] <desrt> readonly filesystems with, at various times, /etc/mtab linked to /proc/mounts or /var/run/mtab :)
[04:49] <pitti> like CD burning (IIRC)
[04:51] <desrt> ok
[04:51] <desrt> it's /proc/mounts
[04:51] <desrt> and it uses the netlink socket to rececive notification of changes
[04:51] <pitti> ok, so mod'ing mount wouldn't help at all
[04:51] <desrt> indeed :(
[04:52] <desrt> mod the kernel!!
[04:52] <desrt> ahem.
[04:52] <sjoerd> pitti: gnome-vfs still uses mtab afaik
[04:52] <Treenaks> kernelmodding! add blue blinking lights etc!
[04:52] <desrt> sjoerd; gnome-vfs is all hal since a while ago
[04:52] <Treenaks> transparent casings!
[04:52] <sjoerd> iirc it currently only uses hal for extra info, not depending on it 
[04:52] <pitti> sjoerd: only as a fallback IIRC
[04:52] <pitti> hm, gotta check that
[04:52] <pitti> sjoerd: btw, what's your general approach wrt hal derooting take #2?
[04:53] <pitti> sjoerd: separate daemon?
[04:53] <sjoerd> yeah
[04:53] <pitti> sjoerd: it would also mean that all policy checks have to go into the hald helpers itself, like the mounting stuff,etc.
[04:53] <sjoerd> just before dropping privs hal startups a small program that connects to a local dbus socket
[04:53] <pitti> sjoerd: ok, so that's the solution mjg59 and davidz wanted to implement
[04:54] <pitti> sjoerd: I think it's a sane compromise
[04:54] <sjoerd> it was the solution hal 0.5 was designed for in the beginnen
[04:54] <sjoerd> it just was never implemented
[04:54] <pitti> but then hald proper must not do any policy checks any more
[04:54] <pitti> or, rather, the called helpers need to do them
[04:54] <sjoerd> well, the first patch will just be to add the daemon 
[04:55] <pitti> yes, that'll be the groundwork for the new architecture, but doesn't help security-wise
[04:55] <pitti> but thanks a lot for working on that :)
[04:55] <sjoerd> you've got to start somewhere :)
[04:55] <pitti> I thought about doing that over the weekend, but since you already worked on it, I didn't
[04:56] <sjoerd> yeah i actually started last monday but already thought about it some weeks before
[04:58] <sjoerd> the first patch will indeed be just groundwork.. But for debian the important part is that the addons and probers will start with elevated priv.
[04:58] <sjoerd> didn't look too much at the callouts yet, they've indeed got some other security issues (like potential policy checks)
[04:59] <pitti> sjoerd: My feeling is that for dapper we will keep pmount and just use hal for power management
[04:59] <sjoerd> seems a save choicee
[05:01] <sjoerd> the current powermanagement in hal is just suspend/hibernate/blah and the dimming the lcd right ?
[05:01] <pitti> sjoerd: I guess so, yes
[05:01] <pitti> sjoerd: moving that to a callout should be relatively straightforward
[05:02] <sjoerd> they already are
[05:02] <hunger> pitti: Could you please move a initscript around for me?
[05:02] <pitti> so much the better
[05:02] <pitti> hunger: let me guess - S20checkroot?
[05:02] <hunger> pitti: ifupdown-clean is run before checkrootfs...
[05:02] <pitti> haha
[05:02] <hunger> pitti: Guess so.
[05:02] <pitti> that's the same bug I talked about with infinity this morning :)
[05:03] <pitti> hunger: indeed, it's on my todo list and I will discuss this with keybuk as soon as he's back
[05:03] <hunger> pitti: malone #28559 is the one I filed about this.
[05:03] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 28559: "ifupdown-clean script fails" Fix req. for: ifupdown (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Unconfirmed http://launchpad.net/bugs/28559
[05:03] <pitti> hunger: I'm not sure how that would interact with this boot modifications (not at all I guess, but ...)
[05:03] <hunger> pitti: As it is now lo is not brought up since ifupdown-clean is trying to delete the state-file on a ro-filesystem.
[05:03] <Kamion> maswan: thanks!
[05:04] <pitti> yay flight 3
[05:04] <pitti> thanks Kamion 
[05:04] <hunger> pitti: The state file of course claims lo to be up already... thus ifup does not bring it up.
[05:05] <pitti> hunger: yes, I'm aware of that; bootlogd breaks as well
[05:05] <sjoerd> pitti: btw policy checking in the callouts is difficult, as you can't know who actually requested the action.. 
[05:05] <hunger> pitti: Good:-) Then all I have to do is wait!
[05:05] <pitti> sjoerd: I rather mean checks similar to pmount: only mount hotpluggable drives etc.
[05:05] <pitti> sjoerd: i. e. if I break hald I must not be able to call the helper to mount /dev/hda1
[05:06] <Kamion> (waiting for ubuntu-announce approval)
[05:06] <sjoerd> exactly, only really paranoid checks will work
[05:06] <mgalvin> Kamoin: DapperFlight3 is all set
[05:07] <pitti> sjoerd: essentuially these cheks must not rely on the hal database, that's why it's still my impression that they could as well be separate dbus services
[05:07] <pitti> which would be maximum decoupling
[05:08] <sjoerd> exactly
[05:08] <pitti> but upstream doesn't like that
[05:08] <sjoerd> well the odd thing is that at one point they wanted to throw out policy from hal, but now it's comming back sortof
[05:09] <pitti> Yagisan: ask Kamion, he'll agree that it was indeed a fight :)
[05:09] <Kamion> mgalvin: thanks, much appreciated
[05:10] <sjoerd> pitti: well they fully trust dbus for enforcing it iirc (as in only certain users can call the callout)
[05:10] <mgalvin> Kamoin: np, glad to help
[05:10] <pitti> sjoerd: I see more trouble on the list
[05:11] <pitti> sjoerd: (in my crystal ball, that is)
[05:12] <mgalvin> segfault: DapperFlight3 is ready to translate, sorry for the short notice
[05:14] <sjoerd> pitti: like ?
[05:15] <pitti> sjoerd: well, convincing upstream :)
[05:15] <sjoerd> hehe
[05:17] <desrt> Yagisan; it was a fight :)
[05:17] <Yagisan> heh
[05:17] <desrt> martin has claws.  i saw them
[05:18] <desrt> don't fuck with him :)
[05:21] <Yagisan> congrats all on flight 3
[05:21] <ogra_ibook> :/
[05:24] <whiprush> jamesh: fridged, thanks for the reminder.
[05:25] <siretart> Kamion: congrats on flight3!
[05:26] <Kamion> ta
[05:38] <whiprush> Kamion: the sprint is in london correct? this month? (wanted to mention it in the next fridge post)
[05:39] <pitti> whiprush: Jan 30 to Feb 4
[05:39] <ogra> whiprush, rather beginning of february, it starts on the 30th
[05:39] <whiprush> thanks guys
[05:41] <tseng> ogra: well i tell gpm to suspend after "30 minutes", is that X idle time, screensaver time, or cpu idle?
[05:41] <tseng> s/well/when
[05:41] <ogra> X idle i think
[05:41] <tseng> it could even mean "30 minutes after loosing AC"
[05:41] <tseng> very ambiguous
[05:42] <pitti> BenC: ping
[05:42] <ogra> hughsie is in #hal normally ...
[05:42] <ogra> tseng^^
[05:42] <ogra> complain at him ;)
[05:42] <tseng> i will
[05:42] <tseng> but he's not
[05:42] <ogra> oh
[05:42] <ogra> he normally is
[05:42] <tseng> gnome bugzilla?
[05:42] <ogra> yup
[05:42] <tseng> elite
[05:45] <Diziet> Gah, I've spent an hour trying to find where this patch was and it was somewhere else entirely.
[05:46] <ogra> Diziet, on new installs firefox segfaults with "Bus Error" if i try to open the preferences 
[05:46] <ogra> known ?
[05:49] <Diziet> ogra: Yes.  You're on amd64, right ?
[05:49] <ogra> yup
[05:49] <Diziet> We think this is something to do with the new biarch libc but don't know whether it's a ff bug or not.
[05:49] <ogra> oki
[05:49] <Diziet> ff itself hasn't changed; it's been FTBFS on amd64 for a week or two.
[05:49] <ogra> i'll check on powerpc to confirm its amd64 only
[05:49] <Diziet> Plan is try new upstream (and fix the FTBFS) and see if that helps.
[05:49] <Diziet> Ta.
[05:50] <Diziet> (Other reports suggest ppc is ok)
[05:57] <Diziet> The trouble with carrying lots of patches is that not only do you spend effort finding and applying them, and fixing up the rejected diffs etc., but when eventually they get taken up upstream you have to do effort again to disentangle them.
[06:01] <elmo> M?rio Meyer, Jerome S. Gotangco, Og Maciel, Carlos Eduardo Pedroza Santiviago, Lionel Dricot, Trent L\loyd, Andi Darmawan, Dennis Kaarsemaker, Jani Monoses, Chris Peterman, Loic Pefferkorn, Sivan Green\berg, Seth Kinast: your ubuntu.com email has been disbaled because it's looping back, please change your preferred email to something other  than you@ubuntu.com
[06:06] <Mithrandir> wouldn't it be useful if lp refused to add @ubuntu.com addresses as preferred?
[06:07] <elmo> Mithrandir: and there's a spec for it to do that - are you volunteering to help?
[06:07] <Mithrandir> elmo: I didn't know, and no, I think my efforts are better spent elsewhere. :-)
[06:27] <sivang> elmo: I didn't have any trouble so far, what causes the loopback ?
[06:27] <elmo> sivang: your preferred email is set to ubuntu.com; you can't do that.  set it to whatever you want @ubuntu.com to forward to
[06:28] <sivang> elmo: I understand the nw situation, but so far it has always worked (I received all lp notifications, and had no issues in receving emails like password reset etc) , what changed?
[06:29] <elmo> the script updating ubuntu.com got broken by unrelated changes in launchpad, it only just started working again
[06:29] <maswan> Mithrandir: remind me, tomorrow, to kick ravel. I just thought of it on my way home from work.
[06:30] <sivang> elmo: ok, I see now that the wording had changed in the email editing page of lp, I changed it then, thank you.
[06:31] <Mithrandir> maswan: will try to remember.
[06:31] <Mithrandir> maswan: or do you have a work address I can send the request to? :-)
[06:32] <tseng> it only uses 17mb :)
[06:33] <tseng> the mixer applet uses 11
[06:33] <Mithrandir> depends on how and what you count.  Here it uses 20 or 2.
[06:35] <maswan> Mithrandir: maswan@hpc2n.umu.se, yes, I won't read that until tomorrow. :)
[06:36] <Mithrandir> maswan: reminded
[06:36] <maswan> Mithrandir: I got gthumb to OoM itself with a large jpeg on my 2GB ram workstation. :)
[06:36] <Mithrandir> gthumb is, for some insane reason eating hilarious amounts of memory
[06:37] <hyperactivecrond> is there a site admin around here who could un-delete my wiki account?
[06:40] <ogra> hyperactivecrond, try #launchpad
[06:40] <hyperactivecrond> thx ogra
[06:52] <segfault> mgalvin_lunch: thanks, i'll translate ASAP>
[06:57] <elmo> doko: ?
[06:59] <ogra> Kamion, maswan, edubuntu ready for release 
[07:02] <Kamion> ogra: to confirm, edubuntu daily 20060116 and daily-live 20060112.1?
[07:02] <ogra> Kamion, everything the "current" link points to
[07:03] <Kamion> ogra: no need to bother maswan until it's actually published
[07:03] <ogra> oki
[07:04] <ogra> Kamion, the locale prob only happens with missing langpacks (anything except en in edubuntus case)
[07:05] <Kamion> ogra: can you clarify that?
[07:06] <Kamion> oh, I see what you mean, you don't even have the base langpacks on the CD
[07:06] <ogra> Kamion, i only have the english langpack on the edubuntu CD, if i install in german i get the usual locale breakage
[07:06] <ogra> yup
[07:06] <ogra> no space 
[07:06] <Kamion> ok, but localechooser 0.27ubuntu2 should have fixed that :(
[07:07] <ogra> even if amd64 installs fine
[07:07] <Kamion> the locales are all in locales.deb now, and it runs locale-gen on the locales you're using
[07:07] <ogra> i'll get you the logs
[07:07] <Kamion> or at least, it's meant to
[07:07] <Kamion> thanks
[07:08] <doko> elmo: pong
[07:08] <elmo> doko: you lose
[07:14] <ogra> Kamion, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/logs/syslog
[07:15] <doko> elmo: ?
[07:17] <ogra> Kamion, erm, sorry, wrong log ...
[07:19] <ogra> Kamion, updated, now its right ...
[07:20] <Kamion> I was wondering, the base-installer bits looked really weird
[07:20] <ogra> heh, thats flight2 :)
[07:22] <Kamion> ok, there's an error there yes, but it's protected by || true
[07:22] <Kamion> (although that error does suggest that we shouldn't be trying to install the language pack at that point, because apt-setup hasn't run yet)
[07:23] <ogra> i only see Jan 16 15:29:03 apt-install: E: Couldn't find package language-pack-de
[07:23] <Kamion> yeah, that's the error I'm referring to - it's not actually directly related to this problem though
[07:25] <Kamion> any chance you could do a fresh install, and before you get to installing the base system, edit /usr/lib/post-base-installer.d/05localechooser and change the third line from 'set -e' to 'set -ex'?
[07:25] <Kamion> if not, don't worry, I'll try it myself shortly
[07:25] <ogra> i'll try
[07:25] <Kamion> thanks
[07:26] <Kamion> this is weird, I can only assume that locale-gen isn't working
[07:26] <ogra> if i run it in /target it doesnt give any output ...
[07:26] <ogra> i circumvented the postgres error this way ...
[07:27] <Kamion> maswan: edubuntu flight-3 up for mirroring too
[07:27] <ogra> you can det it to C in /etc/locale.gen
[07:27] <Kamion> ogra: ^--
[07:27] <Kamion> /etc/locale.gen's obsolete
[07:27] <ogra> thanks :)
[07:27] <ogra> ah, k
[07:27] <Kamion> we use 'locale-gen de_DE.UTF-8' or similar now
[07:27] <ogra> but it worked if i ran it once chrooted in /target 
[07:27] <ogra> ah, thats why it doesnt give output, ok
[07:28] <seb128> elmo: please sync gazpacho
[07:29] <Kamion> ogra: it's also possible I'm giving it the wrong arguments, hence the request for set -x output
[07:29] <ogra> yup
[07:31] <elmo> seb128: done
[07:31] <seb128> elmo: thank you
[07:32] <slomo> elmo: please sync fatsort from debian/unstable... ubuntu changes can be dropped
[07:32] <slomo> elmo: and pygame... for whatever reason it isn't synced automatically
[07:35] <segfault> mvo?
[07:35] <segfault> any luck on malone #6506?
[07:35] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 6506: "selector (Ubuntu) - gnome-language-selector fails to run on dapper" Fix req. for: language-selector (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Michael Vogt, Status: Unconfirmed http://launchpad.net/bugs/6506
[07:38] <maswan> Kamion: ok, doing another mirror run
[07:38] <Kamion> ta
[07:39] <maswan> Kamion: I'm going to be off for some hours now though, perhaps as many as 8-10
[07:40] <Kamion> no problem, we're done with releases for today
[07:42] <ogra> Kamion, runs through with set -x, i'm at ltsp chroot building now ...
[07:43] <Kamion> ok, syslog from that much should be fine
[07:52] <ogra> Kamion, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/logs/syslog.1
[08:03] <Kamion> ogra: ok, thanks - I claim a locale-gen bug
[08:04] <Kamion> ah, I see
[08:04] <Kamion> will look further tomorrow but I think I know roughly where this is
[08:04] <ogra> great :)
[08:05] <ogra> Kamion, thanks 
[08:05] <Kamion> basically it requires a language pack to be installed in order to get out of bed
[08:06] <Kamion> oh, heck, this is obvious, I'll fix it now
[08:09] <Kamion>  locale-gen |    1 -
[08:09] <Kamion>  1 file changed, 1 deletion(-)
[08:09] <Kamion> trivial once you know which line to delete ...
[08:10] <ogra> what was it ? 
[08:10] <ogra> i just saw it searches in /var/lib/locales/supported.d/
[08:10] <ogra> which seems hardcoded
[08:11] <Kamion> it checked [ "`ls $SUPPORTED`" ]  unconditionally when it should only have been checking it if you didn't give it any locale command-line arguments
[08:11] <Kamion> (it checked it in the latter case too, so I just removed the first check)
[08:11] <ogra> ah, heh, easy
[08:12] <Kamion> I'll fix the language-pack installation tomorrow
[08:13] <ogra> its not a race, take your time ;)
[08:21] <mdke> Kamion, is ubuntu express going to be documented, or is that something the doc team might want to consider working on?
[08:22] <lamont> hrm.. actually, iz hostname command
[08:25] <lamont> that's completely b0rked.
[08:25] <lamont> 2.90:   * A check_name function was added to check whether hostnames follow RFC
[08:25] <lamont>     1035 syntax.
[08:25] <lamont> never mind the extensions to that syntax.
[08:25] <lamont> nevermind allowing you to set hostname to the FQDN..
[08:25] <lamont> sigh
[08:27] <lamont> actually, time to add comments to the existing bug
[08:42] <Kamion> mdke: not sure, there's some documentation from Guadalinex but I think given my time constraints it might be better for the doc team to do it
[08:42] <Kamion> no point doing it just yet, of course
[08:43] <daniels> oh, flight 3 during the 'evening'
[08:43] <daniels> Kamion: woo, thanks
[08:45] <mgalvin> segfault: just a heads up, i added the edubuntu flight-3 download link to DapperFlight3 as well
[08:45] <mdke> Kamion, thanks, sure
[08:45] <HiddenWolf> daniels: latest desktop meeting still has a note from you that you're going to break X early jan. Is that still going to happen?
[08:45] <ogra> mgalvin, oh, thanks a lot, that saves me a separate announcement :)
[08:46] <Kamion> ogra: a separate announcement to at least some Edubuntu mailing list would be good
[08:46] <daniels> HiddenWolf: i'm going to break X when I'm more lucid and less 6:30am
[08:46] <mgalvin> ogra: sure, np :)
[08:46] <Kamion> I wouldn't rely on the wiki for announcement value
[08:46] <ogra> Kamion, yes, but i'm not after LWN publicity :)
[08:46] <Kamion> it's fantastic for documenting what sort of things have changed
[08:46] <Kamion> ogra: sure, but you are after testing
[08:46] <daniels> HiddenWolf: not the server or anything though, just the metapackages
[08:47] <daniels> HiddenWolf: nothing even remotely resembling breezy's level of, er, entertainment
[08:47] <ogra> Kamion, yup
[08:47] <HiddenWolf> daniels: right, so my question is, can I upgrade and have a semi-dependabele testing system, or should I wait a tad longer?
[08:47] <daniels> HiddenWolf: now is fine
[08:48] <HiddenWolf> daniels: cool.
[08:49] <HiddenWolf> daniels: something I've been wondering for a while. My mouse dims it's light under windows when inactive, not under linux. Is that kernel, x, or something else?
[08:51] <daniels> HiddenWolf: kernel
[08:51] <HiddenWolf> daniels: ah, right, sorry for bugging you in the early morning. :)
[08:53] <daniels> HiddenWolf: no worries.  wasn't you who set the alarm.
[08:54] <elmo> daniels: did you see my question about renderext the other day?
[08:55] <daniels> elmo: yeah; guess you didn't see my /msg telling you to please trash it
[08:55] <elmo> no, sorry, apparently not
[08:55] <elmo> were you registered?  I don't have anything in my scrollback from you ;-P
[08:57] <daniels> probably not
[08:57] <daniels> WHOOHOOHOO FREENODE
[08:58] <ogra> elmo, did you get my message to wipe the ltsp-client-builder source in dapper ? 
[08:58] <janimo> elmo, please sync/override xfce4-terminal and xfmedia . thank you
[09:00] <LaserJock> elmo: I looked into why octave2.9 and basically Debian made a mistake that made both octave2.1 and octave2.9 build an octave virtual package
[09:01] <LaserJock> elmo: so I think we should wait for Debian to clean up and then everything should build ok
[09:02] <Simira> good evening, sabdfl 
[09:03] <daniels> god, xmms == teh win.  give it a non-existent filename on the command line and it segfaults.
[09:07] <Chipzz> AAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
[09:08] <Chipzz> grrrrrr
[09:08] <Chipzz> I just want a fucking console
[09:08] <Chipzz> configure keyboard, alt-f2, chroot
[09:08] <Chipzz> damn thing starts fucking the console I was working on
[09:08] <Chipzz> *sigh*
[09:09] <HiddenWolf> Chipzz: dude, chill, then file bugs
[09:09] <Chipzz> yeah
[09:09] <Chipzz> :)
[09:10] <Burgwork> the new ugly non-themed libnotify popups, who do I beat up for them?
[09:12] <HiddenWolf> Burgundavia: if you find out, i'll get tar and feathers. :)
[09:12] <ogra> Burgwork, the app developer
[09:13] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, sounds good
[09:13] <ogra> in case ayou mean popping up standalone windows, thats from apps that reant fully ported to the new libnotify yet
[09:13] <Burgwork> dholbach, yer has a typo in dasher
[09:13] <Burgwork> ogra, the new pop dialog that has the non-straight edge
[09:13] <ogra> s/reant/arent/
[09:13] <dholbach> Burgwork: tell me
[09:14] <Burgwork> dholbach,  dasher (3.99.1-0ubunut1) dapper; urgency=low
[09:14] <ogra> Burgwork, ah, you mean the bubble with the stairs :)
[09:14] <HiddenWolf> ogra: any popups should be themed human/$yourtheme rather than whatever decoration $developer thinks is appropriate.
[09:14] <Burgwork> ogra, yep
[09:14] <daniels> at least we've not had 'ubunto' in a version that I've seen
[09:14] <dholbach> Burgwork: nice... we'll have to stick to it until 3.99.1-1 in debian ot 3.99.2 upstream
[09:15] <Burgwork> dholbach, yep
[09:15] <ogra> or until you upload a -zubunutX :)
[09:15] <ogra> -0zubunutX*
[09:16] <dholbach> :)
[09:16] <ogra> :)
[09:17] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, do you know who is upstream for libnotify?
[09:18] <HiddenWolf> Burgwork: http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/galago/libnotify
[09:18] <HiddenWolf> Burgwork: chipx86, johnp, mike, mikeh are listed as authors
[09:19] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, don't see in upstream bug reports over this annoyance
[09:20] <HiddenWolf> Burgundavia: best ask one of the upstreams about it. If a bug is filed, it'll soon have a few confirm messages. :)
[09:21] <dexem> is there any known bug with ndiswrapper/dapper? my bcmwl5a doesn't create any network interface...
[09:21] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, I just emailed chipx86
[09:22] <sivang> Burgwork: found a bug ?
[09:22] <Burgwork> sivang, in libnotify? no, merely that the popup is not themable and currently looks rather ugly
[09:25] <sivang> Burgwork: it doesn't blend nicely..
[09:26] <Burgwork> sivang, no, it doesn't and being able to fully theme it fixes 2 bugs with one hit
[09:30] <sabdfl> BenC: ping
[09:30] <sabdfl> mdz: ping
[09:46] <sivang> Burgwork: what's the other one?
[09:48] <siretart> elmo: did you get the sync requests from the last days or shall I resubmit them via email?
[09:48] <HiddenWolf> daniels: ping
[09:51] <Burgwork> seb128, have you seen the new stuff gnome-panel upstream has done with logout
[09:51] <seb128> Burgwork: sure
[09:52] <seb128> they didn't change gnome-session though
[09:52] <seb128> they just have extra items from the panel
[09:52] <Burgwork> yes
[09:52] <Burgwork> just wondered how we are going to merge upstreams work with ours
[09:52] <seb128> why?
[09:52] <seb128> they is no conflict
[09:52] <seb128> the hack is one gnome-session
[09:53] <seb128> the panel applet stills open gnome-session dialog
[09:53] <seb128> that doesn't conflict with the new panel dialogs
[09:53] <Burgwork> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92277
[09:53] <seb128> I know about that bug, I'm subscribed
[09:53] <daniels> HiddenWolf: pong
[09:53] <daniels> seb128: good morning mc sebtastic
[09:53] <Burgwork> seb128, ok
[09:54] <seb128> hey daniels
[09:54] <Mithrandir> seb128: it seems like gdm loses focus when you point your mouse pointer outside it now.  It didn't in breezy.  Is this known or should I file a bug?
[09:55] <seb128> Mithrandir: outside of what? It's supposed to be fullscreen, no?
[09:55] <daniels> oh, that reminds me
[09:55] <Mithrandir> seb128: no, it just covers one screen.  I have two screens.
[09:56] <daniels> seb128: is the gdm nested login stuff using xephyr yet?
[09:56] <Mithrandir> as in, two monitors and xinerama.
[09:56] <seb128> daniels: no
[09:56] <daniels> seb128: boo
[09:56] <seb128> daniels: patches are welcome :)
[09:56] <daniels> heh
[09:56] <daniels> got too much else to tie up
[09:56] <seb128> Mithrandir: dunno about that ..
[09:57] <Mithrandir> seb128: I'll just file a bug, then
[09:57] <seb128> daniels: I've quite overloaded with GNOME stuff atm
[09:57] <seb128> Mithrandir: yeah better
[09:57] <daniels> seb128: fair enough
[09:57] <seb128> s/ve/m
[09:58] <Burgwork> lamont,  hostname (2.91.0ubuntu1) dapper; urgency=low <-- should that not be -0ubuntu1 ?
[09:58] <lamont> Burgundavia: if the previous version weren't 2.91, then probably
[09:58] <HiddenWolf> daniels: guy with a working but messed up xorg here, http://www.fruk.org/stuff/Screenshot.png
[09:59] <HiddenWolf> daniels: Guess you'd want a bug, but what info should he report?
[09:59] <daniels> HiddenWolf: Option "AccelMethod" "EXA" in Device section of xorg.conf, or probably Option "XaaNoOffscreenPixmaps"
[09:59] <lamont> but since there's already a hostname_2.91.tar.gz in the archive, it'd be bad to upload 2.91-0ubuntu1
[09:59] <daniels> i have *lots* of bugs about that
[09:59] <Burgwork> lamont, just wondering if it was a typo
[09:59] <Den> Mithrandir: Hi U there?
[09:59] <HiddenWolf> daniels: that's exa's doing?
[09:59] <daniels> something in cairo triggers xaa badness, and no-one's quite sure where (especially since I can't reproduce it locally)
[09:59] <lamont> nah, my script originally called it '2.91ubuntu1', but that had it's own issues...
[10:00] <daniels> HiddenWolf: nope, it's xaa's doing; exa should mitigate the problem
[10:00] <Burgwork> lamont, I trust that you are smarter than me
[10:01] <HiddenWolf> daniels: told him.
[10:01] <daniels> HiddenWolf: ta
[10:03] <Den> Anyone know if Mithrandir is actually here now?
[10:04] <Mithrandir> Den: 'sup?
[10:04] <HiddenWolf> daniels: EXA option helped him. Anything he can do to help debug?
[10:04] <daniels> HiddenWolf: not really, to be honest
[10:05] <Den> Mithrandir: Hi - Thanks for you r help.  Do you know i f the firewire cd update you did went into the live iso for kubuntu as well as ubuntu?
[10:05] <daniels> it just needs some benh/anholt love\
[10:05] <Mithrandir> Den: except that I didn't get around to actually _uploading_ it, it does, yes.  I'll just commit it on the trunk and hope for the best now.
[10:05] <Mithrandir> Den: sorry about that. :-(
[10:06] <Den> Mithrandir: noprob.  I would like to get at as soon as possible - any idea when it will get uploaded?
[10:06] <HiddenWolf> daniels: ok, cool, thanks
[10:06] <Treenaks> daniels: did you see my registerdumps?
[10:07] <Den> Mithrandir: Also, any idea when you might be able to respond to the aprox two to 3 emails I sent you a few days ago?
[10:07] <daniels> Treenaks: i did, thanks
[10:07] <Treenaks> daniels: (speaking of ATi :))
[10:07] <daniels> Treenaks: i'm looking at those today
[10:07] <mdke> Riddell, did you move the build directory for kubuntu up a directory in the ubuntu-docs repository? Some of the web targets aren't working any more and the preview server hasn't updated the kubuntu stuff for ages
[10:07] <Treenaks> daniels: cool :)
[10:07] <Mithrandir> Den: new casper uploaded now
[10:07] <LaserJock> is it normal for Xorg to have RES 278MB in top?
[10:07] <Den> Mithrandir: The "base" cd - did you get that one uploaded properly a fw days ago?
[10:08] <Mithrandir> Den: yes, I think so.
[10:08] <Den> Mithrandir: is casper the daily dapper?
[10:08] <daniels> LaserJock: the answer to those questions is always 'yes'
[10:08] <Mithrandir> Den: yes, the image on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ is, well, current.
[10:08] <Mithrandir> Den: that's rsyncable too, so the download should be smaller.
[10:09] <LaserJock> daniels: really, my system is crawling to a halt and I've only got 50MB of memory free (out of 512) and all I have is firefox, thunderbird, and a termianl
[10:09] <Mithrandir> Den: note that the change I committed won't be visible until the next live rebuild which will finish in about 12 hours.
[10:10] <Den> Mithrandir: Will that change go into kubuntu daily live besides ubuntu?
[10:10] <Mithrandir> Den: yes
[10:11] <Den> Mithrandir: Thanks!  I'll be eagerly awaiting the next live rbuild.
[10:11] <daniels> LaserJock: close those first two and your free memory will soar
[10:11] <Mithrandir> Den: I'm writing up a presentation and need to get up early tomorrow, but I'll answer your mails tomorrow.
[10:11] <daniels> LaserJock: the Xorg RES figure includes such insignificant figures as, oh, your entire video RAM
[10:12] <Den> Mithrandir: The "base" iso you had me dl didn't boot to a command line prompt, should it have?
[10:12] <Mithrandir> Den: yes, I'd think so, unless something went wrong.
[10:12] <LaserJock> daniels: oh, ok. but my system seems to be stuttering a lot and using swap a lot
[10:13] <Den> Mithrandir: it got further than the ubunt live, which perhaps means the firewire fix worked, but it died saying something about (I really forget this, it's been several days since) about maybe trying some names, them not working, and the names being repeated too often.
[10:14] <Mithrandir> Den: yes, I remember that, it's a sign of it not finding the cd, really.
[10:14] <LaserJock> daniels: ok, closing firefox and thunderbird gave me back 55 MB but I'm still using 397MB with only a terminal open
[10:14] <Mithrandir> Den: and it shouldn't, ever, spit out those messages, but that's less important.
[10:14] <Den> Mithrandir: If you  really want to know, let me know & if I can find that cd I'll try it again & record the err messages - do you want me to do that?
[10:14] <Mithrandir> Den: no, that's not needed.  If you could just test tomorrow's CD when it's out and give me feedback, that'd be nice.
[10:15] <lifeless> are there any 'how to debug that pos evolution after it hangs' guides ?
[10:15] <Den> Mithrandir: Is there some web page that shows the fix you did to try to make the firewire cd work?
[10:16] <Mithrandir> Den: I just asked the live cd to include two more modules in the initramfs.
[10:16] <Den> Mithrandir: Is that in a text file, or compiled into something?
[10:16] <Mithrandir> Den: text file.
[10:16] <Mithrandir> Den: that is, the text file is used for building an initramfs image which is stuck into the iso image.
[10:16] <Den> Mithrandir: Where can I find that text file?
[10:17] <Mithrandir> Den: install bzr and do bzr get http://people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/bzr/casper/trunk
[10:17] <LaserJock> daniels: I don't want to be a pain about this but I have seen a big change in my desktops performace from a few weeks ago. My system really drags when I do anything CPU intensive
[10:17] <daniels> lasti don't know, man
[10:17] <ogra> hrm ... i do a bzr get, change a file, commit and do a bzr push ... 
[10:17] <ogra> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged.  Try a merge then push with overwrite.
[10:17] <lifeless> ogra: that means that someone else pushed before you
[10:17] <ogra> DEAR bzr i only have changed one line !!
[10:18] <Den> Mithrandir: What's an "intramfs image"?
[10:18] <lifeless> ogra: so you have to integrate their changes before you can push
[10:18] <ogra> lifeless, i did this procedure 5 times in a row now ... (including wiping the whole local tree every time)
[10:18] <LaserJock> daniels: so is it worth a bug report? I can't imagine anything useful I could report other than "It used to be better"
[10:18] <ogra> i doubt taht anybody except myself pushes to the edubuntu seeds
[10:18] <Mithrandir> Den: do you know what an initramdisk is?
[10:19] <lifeless> ogra: dont wipe the local tree, theres no need to do that
[10:19] <Den> Mithrandir: no
[10:19] <johnl> LaserJock, have you tried asking on #ubuntu?
[10:19] <lifeless> ogra: and if its reproducible, come on over to #bzr and get someone to help you!
[10:19] <johnl> LaserJock, that's the place to discuss that stuff
[10:20] <Mithrandir> Den: http://lwn.net/Articles/14776/ has a little bit of explanation.
[10:20] <ogra> lifeless, i will ... one last try ... have to wait anyway 20-30 min until sftp decides to finish the push :)
[10:20] <LaserJock> johnl: well, perhaps, I just want to know if it is worth a bug report
[10:20] <Den> Mithrandir: Thanks!
[10:20] <johnl> LaserJock, tell you what, take it over to #ubuntu first and I'll see if I can help
[10:21] <LaserJock> johnl: ok, thanks
[10:43] <slomo> elmo: please sync taglib, fatsort and pygame from debian/unstable... ubuntu changes can be dropped
[10:47] <lamont> grumble.
[10:47] <lamont> I want a way to tell apt to use a proxy, but only for update
[10:48] <tseng> lamont: export http_proxy="http://yourproxy:80
[10:48] <tseng> "
[10:48] <tseng> apt-get update
[10:48] <tseng> unset http_proxy
[10:48] <tseng> alias that all together or something.
[10:48] <lamont> tseng: that's what I _am_ doing
[10:48] <lamont> but I want an apt.conf entry to do it for me... :-)
[10:48] <tseng> :)
[10:48] <lamont> or better yet, they could fix the stupid non-transparent proxy I'm behind
[10:49] <tseng> we have a cisco content engine in line at work, its pretty unintelligent as well
[10:50] <lifeless> lamont: transparent' proxies generally aren't.
[10:51] <lamont> lifeless: exactly
[10:51] <lamont> but without the proxy, they can't play big-brother and waste money scraping log files to make sure we're all good little kids
[10:52] <lamont> the proxy is transparent enough for upgrade, but not so good for Packages.bz2
[10:53] <azeem> lamont: you could use a different apt.conf for update, like apt-get -c /etc/apt/apt.conf.update update
[10:53] <lamont> azeem: I'm trying to make it so update-notifier actually (a) works, and (b) doesn't trash the package cache
[10:53] <lamont> s/cache/lists/
[10:53] <azeem> ah
[10:53] <lamont> that and so I don't have to remember the funky differences
[10:58] <lifeless> lamont: send it off on wild goose chases
[10:58] <lifeless> i.e. ask for cnn.com at the playboy ip address
[10:59] <lamont> lifeless: how does one encode such a URL?
[10:59] <lifeless> GET /index.html HTTP/1.1
[10:59] <lifeless> Host: www.cnn.com
[10:59] <lifeless> 
[10:59] <lifeless> 
[10:59] <lamont> ah, ok.  any way to get firefox's UI to do that for me? wget?
[11:00] <lifeless> firefox - add a local alias to hosts
[11:00] <lamont> generally, I want that for testing a virtual-hosted domain before making it production
[11:10] <Seveas> lamont, /etc/hosts can be useful there
[11:20] <Kamion> 21:18 < ogra> i doubt taht anybody except myself pushes to the edubuntu seeds
[11:20] <Kamion> ogra: bzr log says I've made about half as many commits to the Edubuntu seeds as you have
[11:21] <Kamion> one of those was this evening
[11:27] <ogra> Kamion, but i did a bzr get in a new location after your commit and still couldnt push
[11:28] <Kamion> that I dunno about
[11:28] <ogra> its solved now ...