[12:55] <jelkner> kjcole: morning kevin, please give me a ring...
[01:00] <kjcole> jelkner, i called. got voice mail.
[01:00] <jelkner> what is your number?
[01:00] <kjcole> 202-234-0213
[01:05] <kjcole> showtime?
[01:06] <kjcole> janew, ping?
[01:10] <kjcole> jelkner, you're  gone...
[01:13] <JaneW> ack!!!
[01:13] <JaneW> hello
[01:14] <JaneW> meeting totally slipped my mind!
[01:14] <JaneW> where has the week gone?
[01:14] <JaneW> and where is my reminder?
[01:14] <flint> ...coffee...must get coffee...
[01:14] <kjcole> hiya
[01:15] <JaneW> who is here
[01:15] <JaneW> hi flint
[01:15] <flint> good morning campers! hi jane and kevin!
[01:16] <JaneW> kjcole & jelkner as promised we can start with doc news today
[01:17] <flint> Congradulationis Jane how many in grade 1? 2?
[01:17] <JaneW> s/s
[01:17] <JaneW> make that ONE KID
[01:18] <kjcole> JaneW, I just got off the phone with Jeff.  He usually has to cut out early from these meetings and because we're starting late, he's left it in my clumsy hands.  Oops. I dropped it.
[01:18] <flint> I will rat them out.  they have been hauling compuers all weekend and have made no progress. :^)
[01:18] <JaneW> kjcole: so you want to shoot, or defer?
[01:18] <JaneW> is ogra here?
[01:18] <kjcole> Defer.
[01:18] <ogra> JanC, yup
[01:18] <JaneW> kjcole: :P
[01:18] <JaneW> hi ogra
[01:19] <JaneW> ok the doc team aren't talking, so you are up
[01:19] <ogra> still fighting with the flight 3 announcement 
[01:19] <flint> damn...they actually have made a whole lot of progress!
[01:19] <JaneW> cool
[01:19] <ogra> we have flight 3
[01:19] <JaneW> is flight 3 done?
[01:19] <kjcole> (Long and short of it is we didn't meet last weekend for books, as we were meeting to gather and redistribute lots of computers.)
[01:19] <JaneW> do you need help with the announcement?
[01:19] <JaneW> I can help
[01:19] <ogra> yes, since two days, i'm really late with the announcement 
[01:19] <JaneW> kjcole: ok thanks, you still on track though?
[01:19] <JaneW> ogra: what needs to be done?
[01:19] <ogra> (you know we have UVF tomorrow ;) )
[01:20] <kjcole> janew, I believe so.
[01:20] <JaneW> ogra: congrats on meeting another milestone :))
[01:20] <ogra> :)
[01:20] <JaneW> ogra: yes so it would be good to get the announcement out today still
[01:20] <flint> ollie, i read about the flights etc... is this more than just another build or what?
[01:20] <ogra> JaneW, yup... lets do it after the meeting
[01:21] <JaneW> btw Thin Client Local devices is now officially deferred for Dapper
[01:21] <ogra> flint, yes
[01:21] <JaneW> ogra: ok
[01:21] <ogra> flight CDs are tested for basic installability 
[01:21] <flint> gotcha, I should download and test at f3?
[01:21] <ogra> drawbacks and known bugs in flight Cds are noted in the install notes
[01:22] <ogra> so you shouldnt get bad surprises if you try them
[01:22] <ogra> ok
[01:22] <jelkner> ogra: how does the flight concept align with alpha and beta?
[01:22] <flint> definately congradulations are in order ollie
[01:22] <ogra> i have mostly done ubuntu work to prepare for UVF this week apart form the flight CDs 
[01:22] <jelkner> great work, olllie!
[01:23] <ogra> so i have not much to tell this week
[01:23] <ogra> local devices are officially deferred, but i'm just working on the latest ltspfs and ltspfsd packages, so we have the base for it in universe
[01:24] <jelkner> great
[01:24] <ogra> it should be no problem to follow the ltsp.org docs to set local device support up in a classic way with the packages from universe+
[01:24] <flint> ollie, I know that this is a pain, but can you paste in the url for the f3 iso?
[01:24] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/dapper/
[01:24] <flint> thanks
[01:25] <ogra> this flight Cd has sound support ... :)
[01:25] <ogra> (for thin clients that is)
[01:25] <flint> I intend to give this a try...
[01:25] <ogra> i'm currently discussing the advantage of switching from bash to a smaller shell with mdz 
[01:25] <ogra> that might get us near the 32MB ...
[01:25] <ogra> (for clients)
[01:26] <flint> cutting ram usage in half?
[01:26] <ogra> nah
[01:26] <ogra> we are at 48MB 
[01:26] <ogra> and it gets hard to get lower now ...
[01:26] <JaneW> hi jelkner 
[01:26] <ogra> the kernel and initramfs already take more than 32MB 
[01:27] <jelkner> JaneW: hi jane!
[01:27] <flint> how much ram would be saved?
[01:27] <JaneW> jelkner: flights are pre alpha and beta, we'll actually have a beta-proper before this release
[01:27] <ogra> i have a initramfs patch pending that supresses all harrdisk mosules that might get us less than 32MB for kernel and intramfs ...
[01:27] <ogra> for the shell change i cant predict any values yet
[01:27] <JaneW> jelkner: which is a first for us
[01:28] <flint> good morning jeff!  you and kevin should talk about docs and the secondary processor market...
[01:28] <ogra> my main concern with the shell stuff was speed, using less ram is a sideeffect
[01:29] <Kamion> jelkner: I'd say flight =~ alpha
[01:29] <JaneW> the idea is that the flights (or collective noun for release creature) are milestones withint the dev cycle to weed out issues and check-point progress
[01:29] <ogra> in other news i now own 5 thin clients 
[01:29] <ogra> so testing ius easier ....
[01:29] <JaneW> like a dev->test->dev->test cycle
[01:29] <flint> interesting, something like say "ash" woudl improve speed over say "icewm"?
[01:29] <Kamion> JaneW: yeah, alpha's a reasonably conventional term to use to describe the milestone points in such a process
[01:29] <ogra> jelkner, yes, beta is the release candidate (which we actually call beta release this time iirc)
[01:30] <Kamion> no, we'll be calling the preview release "beta"
[01:30] <Yagisan> ogra: can we have our own -OS compiled kernels to save space ?
[01:30] <Kamion> release candidate is release candidate :)
[01:30] <ogra> ah, yes
[01:30] <ogra> i didnt scroll down :)
[01:30] <ogra> Yagisan, nope
[01:30] <ogra> Yagisan, not officially
[01:31] <Yagisan> ogra: well, it was a nice idea while it lasted
[01:31] <flint> elkner, there is actually an entire explanation of this flight for dapper thing on an ubuntu web site, let me see if i can find it.
[01:31] <ogra> but the initramfs patch that i initially had to do because powerpc couldnt boot will slim down a lot
[01:31] <JaneW> Kamion: thanks
[01:31] <JaneW> jelkner: what Kamion said!
[01:31] <ogra> Yagisan, you wont gain mauch with a customized kernel ...
[01:32] <ogra> Yagisan, the big piece here is the collection of modules ...
[01:32] <ogra> so initramfs has an option to suporess unneeded ones ...
[01:32] <jelkner> Kamion, yes, thanks!
[01:33] <Yagisan> ogra: I was just interested in if the optimise for size option would help
[01:33] <ogra> Yagisan, it might ... but we wont get separate kernels and you wont gain as much with a smaller kernel as you can with a slimmed down initramfs 
[01:34] <jelkner> JaneW: same time next week?
[01:34] <jelkner> i've gotta run...
[01:34] <JaneW> jelkner: yes please
[01:34] <jelkner> thanks
[01:34] <JaneW> jelkner: and cookbook update then please
[01:34] <JaneW> if you can
[01:34] <JaneW> ciao
[01:35] <jelkner> yes, and we will have stuff to report
[01:35] <jelkner> can we put that on the agenda for the start of the meeting?
[01:35] <ogra> oh, i'm at a conference this weekend ... its from a project thats sopnsored by the european union ... 
[01:35] <jelkner> ciao
[01:36] <ogra> they want to build their school and usermanagement software on top of knoppix and ubuntu it seems (klaus knopper is there as well)
[01:36] <ogra> #seems its fulls paied by the EU
[01:36] <ogra> and has a good backing ...
[01:36] <flint> cool...I am ready to immagrate back to the mother country...I want a sane government!
[01:37] <ogra> heh
[01:37] <flint> shake klaus' hand for me ollie
[01:37] <ogra> it was initially gpl, then made proprietary, and became gpl again now ...
[01:37] <ogra> will do
[01:37] <ogra> originally developed on and for SuSE 
[01:38] <flint> btw the site for the flight narrative is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/faq search for word flight.
[01:38] <ogra> but the EU and the people driving this project are *very* intereasted having it run on debian based systems ...
[01:38] <ogra> (mainly edubuntu and knoppix)
[01:38] <flint> where would this be?
[01:39] <ogra> it installs workstations from isos on the fly (even from windows isos)
[01:39] <ogra> looks very intresting 
[01:39] <flint> where geographically is the conference?  near you?
[01:39] <ogra> thats about 100km southern of my place, near the belkgian border
[01:39] <ogra> trier is near
[01:40] <JaneW> ogra: sounds good
[01:40] <flint> Trier?  never been there...
[01:40] <ogra> JaneW, yes, mark was very intrested that i go there 
[01:40] <flint> are they in the middle of the moodle schooltool thing yet
[01:41] <ogra> nope they are way bigger
[01:41] <flint> what is the name of what they want for a management software thing?
[01:41] <ogra> its a management system for whole schools and universities 
[01:41] <ogra> including user as well as system and software management
[01:41] <ogra> platform independent for the client architecture
[01:42] <ogra> i have no clue ... had no time yet to look at it ...
[01:42] <ogra> we are near UVF and i shouldnt ever chat here to get the last packages in ;)
[01:42] <kjcole> ogra,  sounds like  an  ambitious system.
[01:42] <flint> ogra, this is beginning to sound too good to be true.  be tolerant Ollie.
[01:43] <ogra> yes, i'll look up the urls for you and send it to the ML
[01:43] <flint> thanks.  Now that I think about it Bush vs Eurocrats...tough call eh Jane?
[01:44] <ogra> pfft bush ...
[01:44] <flint> exactly!!!!
[01:44] <ogra> how long has he left in this period ? 
[01:44] <ogra> he'll be gone soon ...
[01:45] <flint> please, he can do a lot more damage
[01:45] <ogra> true ...
[01:45] <kjcole> ogra, say that and  we'll bring "freedom and democracy" to your country too! so be afraid.  ;-)
[01:45] <ogra> lol
[01:45] <flint> excellent kevin
[01:45] <flint> lol indeed
[01:46] <ogra> hey, we have "neckless angie" .... she'll manage :P
[01:46] <flint> ok we got the flight 3 in our sights. 
[01:46] <JaneW> ogra: don't talk about jbailey's wife like that! :P
[01:46] <flint> ouch that is funny about your new pm!
[01:47] <ogra> JaneW, *she* has a neck :)
[01:47] <JaneW> does anyone want to volunteer as minutes atker for these meetings?
[01:47] <JaneW> I don;t mind the job, but I never seem to manage to get it done anymore
[01:48] <ogra> flint, flight 3 is old news already :)
[01:48] <JaneW> and the Ubuntu Dapper Report takes a big chunk of my time currently
[01:48] <flint> i know that, jeff did not.
[01:49] <ogra> flint, yes, because i suck at timely announcements ;)
[01:49] <flint> JaneW, what is involved?  
[01:49] <ogra> flint, see the MeetingNotes page on the wiki 
[01:50] <ogra> flint, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingRecords
[01:50] <flint> i did not even know there was a meeting notes page!
[01:51] <flint> ogra, thanks
[01:51] <JaneW> flint: liar!
[01:51] <JaneW> flint: sorry I mean Alzheimers!
[01:52] <flint> do not worry I will likely forget that remark :^)
[01:52] <ogra> lol
[01:52] <ogra> oh, i need artwork still !!
[01:52] <ogra> nearly forgot about that 
[01:53] <JaneW> flint: but yes basically taking salient meeting notes/decisions and adding them to: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingRecords
[01:53] <JaneW> oh yes
[01:53] <ogra> the artwork packages currently lets you select the age, but has 3 times the same design :)
[01:53] <JaneW> ogra: list what you need, I'll nag silbs again
[01:53] <JaneW> wallpaper, splash, and  gdm theme?
[01:53] <JaneW> ogra: you got icon sets?
[01:54] <ogra> we can keep the young design i think (another wallpaper might be fine) so what i need is mid age and older age 
[01:54] <ogra> i wanted to take the default icon theme for the two older flavours
[01:54] <flint> as a consultant and the authorized representative of beazulbub, prince of falsehood, let me look into the notes thing... 
[01:55] <ogra> so we'd only need wallpaper and splash screen artwork
[01:57] <ogra> did somebody tell elkner that we are using malone exclusively now ? 
[01:57] <kjcole> ogra, nope but it's pretty obvious when one goes to bugzilla...
[01:57] <ogra> oh, damned, i also wanted him to take a look at pida #
[01:58] <kjcole> ogra, pida?
[01:58] <ogra> its a cool python IDE i could imagine for main inclusion
[01:58] <ogra> eh, and i did forget, gobby is in !! ( JaneW ") 
[01:58] <flint> pida yaide neat! is it in universe?
[01:58] <ogra> yup+
[01:59] <JaneW> ogra: oh yay, I noticed your discussion with pitti in the dapper meeting last week
[01:59] <ogra> but it looks like its easy to get to main ... 
[01:59] <JaneW> it looked promising
[01:59] <kjcole> ogra, ah.  I know he's talked to Stani of SPE fame, and Stani's modified SPE to  be more Ubuntu-friendly
[01:59] <flint> the only down side of gobby is that it sorta needs a server for school-to-school
[01:59] <ogra> spe is totally broken
[01:59] <ogra> and UVF is tomorrow
[01:59] <JaneW> ogra: did you look at Quim's reckommeded app Dasher?
[01:59] <ogra> i doubt that will be fixed in time
[01:59] <JaneW> spe?
[01:59] <ogra> its an editior
[02:00] <JaneW> ogra: what are our issues for UVF?
[02:00] <JaneW> ogra: are we asking for any exceptions this time?
[02:00] <ogra> JaneW, yes, dasher is a input tool for handhelds that was adopted by the a11y people
[02:00] <ogra> JaneW, nope
[02:00] <kjcole> JaneW, SPE = Stani's Python  Editor which includes a lot of wxpython capability and i gather shows a lot of promise...
[02:00] <JaneW> ogra: does it makes sense for us to look at it for uni and/or Dapper +1?
[02:00] <ogra> ltsp development can go on until feature freeze, we dont need exceptions
[02:00] <JaneW> yay
[02:01] <JaneW> ogar: I am PROUD OF YOU
[02:01] <ogra> kjcole, we wont accept awxpython in main i think
[02:01] <JaneW> and anyone who may have helped you.
[02:01] <ogra> kjcole, so SPE is not an option
[02:03] <flint> I thought that pycard was wx.
[02:04] <flint> na, it is gtk
[02:04] <ogra> pida is also for pygtk and has a direct glade interface for gazpacho ...
[02:05] <kjcole> Naturally, when learning GUI stuff for Python, I went with wx... :-(
[02:05] <ogra> its like idle on steroids with fresh design
[02:07] <ogra> and it supports embedding of different editors in the IDE ... you are not bound to the shipped one but can select emacs or vim ... 
[02:07] <flint> never fooled with gazpacho mostly playing with Scite
[02:07] <ogra> that brings me an idea ...
[02:07] <ogra> i'll ask upstream if he likes to include gobby support ;)
[02:08] <kjcole> ogra, now  there's a wild and crazy idea.  I *LIKE* it!
[02:08] <flint> ogra, ollie, what we need in gobby space is a server that can take gobby sessions and connect htem...
[02:09] <flint> one really cool hack would be to connect them to xchat...
[02:09] <ogra> flint, the current version supports that 
[02:09] <kjcole> flint, like a gobby daemon that doesn't have to be started by any individual, but just sits and listens...
[02:09] <ogra> and gobby brings a chat itself ... 
[02:09] <flint> supports a connection via xchat?  your kidding...
[02:09] <ogra> nope, a dedicated server
[02:10] <flint> kjcole, exactly  it is a gobby catcher, the users gobbys are the pitchers...
[02:10] <kjcole> flint, i'm going to dist-upgrade docbox  if that's the case. ;-)
[02:11] <flint> ogra, a dedicated server?  indeed.  kjcole use the development box and have at it.
[02:11] <ogra> i dont know how to set it up, i only know its included 
[02:11] <ogra> sobby is the name iirc
[02:12] <flint> ogra, kjcole and I had a time with gobby, i ended up xsessioning into his box to use it.  most slow.
[02:12] <flint> ogra, sobby eh?  I will look into it.
[02:12] <ogra> but that was 0.2.0 
[02:12] <ogra> we have 0.3.0 now
[02:13] <ogra> should have improved a lot
[02:13] <flint> they call it an obby server why leave off the "g"?
[02:14] <flint> anyway, i am gonna get some coffee.  I will be on but upstairs with a cup in my hand for a few minutes...
[02:15] <ogra> hmm, btw, why wasnt the edubuntu meeting on the fridge ? 
[02:15] <ogra> my evolution pulls the webcal from there and notifies me ...
[02:15] <ogra> JaneW, ??
[02:16] <kjcole> i gotta  run to work,
[02:17] <JaneW> ogra: yes I got no reminder either
[02:17] <sivang> ogra: pida is in python I guess?
[02:17] <ogra> sivang, yup
[02:17] <ogra> sivang, pygtk
[02:17] <sivang> very cool
[02:17] <ogra> and finally a IDE that embeds vim 
[02:18] <sivang> were you talking about which editors to include for python in Edubuntu ?
[02:18] <kjcole> ogra,  any idea  how to get  korganizer  to pull the calendar automatically?  I end up downloading  it an importing it, but would like a  better way.
[02:19] <ogra> kjcole, nope, no idea, in evo you just add the webcal url and it updates automatically
[02:19] <ogra> but i dont touch KDE stuff if i dont need to
[02:20] <ogra> sivang, its likely to late to include it for dapper, but i want the people to test heavily since we will change the software selection  in dapper+1
[02:20] <kjcole> ogra that may be enough  info  to go on. thanks.  (I figured something  like that, but wanted to be sure it wasn't too obscure in  evolution.)
[02:20] <sivang> ogra: specifically for python editors, or change the whole software selection for Edubuntu ?
[02:21] <kjcole> and   i'm outa here.   bye!
[02:21] <ogra> in evo you just add a new calendar and tell it to pull the webcal address ... 
[02:21] <sivang> bye kjcole 
[02:21] <ogra> sohould be similar in KDE
[02:21] <ogra> sivang, we'll see
[02:22] <ogra> first point i want people to be aware of all the stuff thats there and make suggestions on the ML for a new selectin
[02:22] <ogra> after thats done we'll see how much demand is there
[02:23] <ogra> dapper+1 is still some months away
[02:23] <sivang> yes, true
[02:29] <JaneW> 3 months to be exact
[02:32] <ogra> JaneW, mhz is nagging about a new summit ...
[02:32] <flint> ogra, summits can be fun.
[02:33] <JaneW> mdz: I think we may be able to schedule one after Dapper releases
[02:33] <JaneW> likely not before
[02:33] <flint> JaneW, an excellent thought
[02:33] <JaneW> sabdfl will want to see how we do on this release forst and if we keep the momentum going
[02:34] <flint> well, we have done what we can to keep him entertained, that is for certian.
[02:35] <flint> the good news from here is that my test capability is about to start and will with f3.
[02:36] <flint> and for all the posturing about the cookbook, the boys are actually making good progress on docbox
[02:37] <flint> one idea that has survived in my altzheimers inflicted brain is that of matching the style of the cookbook with the graphic style of the product.  do you recall that one janeW?
[02:38] <JaneW> flint: yup
[02:38] <JaneW> flint: meaning gartoon theme etc?
[02:39] <flint> well, that said I thought I saw you refering to different graphics for different levels in this meeting. eh?
[02:39] <flint> whatever is in f3 is what i will agitate the cookbook mafia to go with.
[02:40] <flint> what is a gartoon theme? (I'm a doctor jim, not a graphic artist :^)
[02:41] <flint> JaneW, ok I got it it is a gnome theme...
[02:42] <JaneW> flint: after ppl saying edubuntu was too naive looking and aimed at only 6-10 y/o kids we agreed to do
[02:42] <JaneW> 1) Young as per current but with different wall paper
[02:42] <JaneW> 2) Older appealing to 10-15 y/o
[02:42] <flint> yea, that's it.  that's the ticket.  will this be the same at all levels of system use?
[02:43] <JaneW> 3) Generic plain and simple look, less distracting and resource intensive and possibly for tertiary edu use
[02:43] <flint> JaneW, the question then is can that three level demarcation be continued in the cookbook?
[02:43] <JaneW> how?
[02:44] <JaneW> the cook book is not specific to any of the choices
[02:44] <JaneW> but we should perhaps depict the selections in the cook book
[02:44] <flint> JaneW, like the intro and fundamental stuff is in graphic 1 style and so on...
[02:44] <JaneW> nah I think select one and be consistent
[02:45] <flint> JaneW, kidnap note typography forever!
[02:45] <JaneW> ogra: ping ^^^
[02:45] <flint> JaneW, i will get back to you via mail about notes... later this week.
[02:46] <JaneW> flint: awesome thanks
[02:46] <flint> ogra, you asleep?
[02:47] <flint> the gauledette community of deaf folks sign off with "stop key stop key" or sksk, I would like to adopt this convention here.
[02:47] <flint> later, sksk
[02:49] <ogra> nope, my line is shaky
[02:51] <JaneW> ogra: * JaneW has to go, we have just over an hour, and an announcement to get out...
[02:51] <JaneW> JaneW ogra: ping ^^^
[02:56] <ogra> JaneW, a minute please, my line is dropping all the time ...
[02:57] <ogra> JaneW, better now 
[02:57] <JaneW> ogra: ok
[03:38] <Yagisan> \sh: I see you also replied to debsecan
[03:39] <Yagisan> bah - wrong window