[12:04] <ompaul> Burgwork, catagories and so one
[12:04] <ompaul> s/one/on
[12:04] <Burgwork> this is really about me being lazy. I get other people to do my work and then I clean it up and take credit ;)
[12:04] <ompaul> yeah we know this :-)
[12:05] <ompaul> but you put a lot of work into this lazy
[12:05] <Burgwork> I try
[12:07] <ompaul> it is noted
[12:08] <ompaul> I am now wondering what I will end up reading to get this boot options stuff and putting it in some order that makes sense - life can be fun
[12:09] <Burgwork> if you can teach someone something, you have truly mastered it
[12:10] <ompaul> Burgwork, why do you think I spend lots of time in #ubuntu :) 
[12:10] <ompaul> I learn others learn and its a big happy ubuntu time
[12:10] <ompaul> well mostly
[12:49] <LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if we could ship a "From the Wiki" doc that has HTMLized or XMLized wiki pages
[12:50] <Burgwork> LaserJock, see the thread on the maling list
[12:50] <LaserJock> Burgwork: right, that's what I'm looking at
[12:50] <Burgwork> I don't see it working with our  current wiki
[12:50] <LaserJock> how hard would it be to HTMLize a wiki page?
[12:50] <Burgwork> what do you do with it once it is turned into HTML?
[12:51] <LaserJock> ship it
[12:51] <LaserJock> put it on help.ubuntu.com
[12:51] <Burgwork> that means no translation
[12:51] <Burgwork> why not have two wikis and keep it moin for help.ubuntu.com as well?
[12:51] <LaserJock> well, it seems like an oxymoron to me to have a static wiki :-)
[12:52] <Burgwork> no it is not
[12:52] <Burgwork> it is harnessing the power of hte wiki in a non-traditional way
[12:52] <LaserJock> who would get to edit it? just doc-team members?
[12:52] <Burgwork> exactly
[12:52] <LaserJock> and then we would point to it in our shipped documentation?
[12:52] <Burgwork> with an area to leave comments that doesn't require an account
[12:53] <Burgwork> the interactions of wiki <--> shipped still need to be worked out
[12:54] <LaserJock> if we do have a (more) static wiki then we should be able to have a "From the Wiki" page with links and brief summaries of what is on our wiki
[12:54] <Burgwork> yep, exactly
[12:54] <Burgwork> and we can say "this is good" in a simple way
[12:54] <LaserJock> how would we track changes in the w.u.c pages
[12:54] <Burgwork> what do you mean?'
[12:55] <LaserJock> well, once we import a page into "our" wiki we would have to keep track of the changes in the w.u.c pages and update ours as needed
[12:56] <Burgwork> no, the page would be moved, not copied
[12:56] <LaserJock> oh, I don't think that is a very good idea, but I'll have to think about that
[12:56] <Burgwork> I imagine us moving our in progress docs to doc.ubuntu.com
[12:56] <Burgwork> a redirect would be left and that page locked
[12:57] <LaserJock> but then authors (and others) can't work on their wiki pages
[12:57] <Burgwork> yes they can, because they can be granted write access to them
[12:58] <LaserJock> but then it just turns into a slightly better wiki because we would have quite a few people asking for write access
[12:58] <Burgwork> no
[12:59] <LaserJock> I would think it would turn people off of wanting to improve the doc because they can't edit it in the same way as the w.u.c pages
[12:59] <Burgwork> LaserJock, the pages we would move are pages that are unlikely to see any useful editing, such as RestrictedFormats
[12:59] <LaserJock> I suppose
[01:00] <Burgwork> and there would be an anon comment place
[01:00] <LaserJock> how many pages do you think we are talking about here?
[01:00] <Burgwork> a dozen for starters
[01:00] <LaserJock> that wouldn't be too bad
[01:00] <Burgwork> each page would be need to carefully considered
[01:00] <Burgwork> it would also provide a goal
[01:01] <Burgwork> to get your page moved to help
[01:01] <LaserJock> but then what is the advantage over just turning those into XML and putting them in the svn repo?
[01:01] <Burgwork> sorry, got to run
[01:01] <LaserJock> I agree the motivation factor whould be cool
[01:01] <Burgwork> the advantage is that they are still in the wiki
[01:02] <LaserJock> alright, I see your poing more. I'll let you go now ;-)
[01:02] <LaserJock> s/poing/point/
[02:25] <Skywind> RAYS LX 1.5 Alpha2 
[02:25] <Skywind> sorry
[03:01] <mgalvin> i started reading USDF, i think i missed something... what is GWOS?
[03:02] <LaserJock> it's a ubuntuforums splitoff wiki, I think
[03:02] <Kyral> More like a stashhouse for all the HOWTOs in one place ;P
[03:03] <mgalvin> is there a link to a site?
[03:03] <mgalvin> or is this all just talk atm?
[03:04] <LaserJock> no it's very real
[03:04] <mgalvin> hmm... i have been so busy... it seems i have missed a lot :-/
[03:05] <mgalvin> link?
[03:05] <robotgeek> docs.gwos.org
[03:06] <LaserJock> yeah, I just found it
[03:06] <mgalvin> hmm.. server not found
[03:07] <mgalvin> what does the GWOS stand for?
[03:08] <robotgeek> doc.gwos.org, sorry
[03:08] <robotgeek> The Great Wyrms of Sorrow and Regret
[03:09] <robotgeek> that's what it's causing us all
[03:09] <manicka> the UDSF is not a splitoff from the Forums, it is part of the forums
[03:10] <manicka> It is the forums knowledgebase and centralised repo of data
[03:12] <LaserJock> I meant sort of a splitoff from wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:12] <manicka> although it is in the wiki format its purpose is not to be a Documentation Project like the Wiki
[03:14] <manicka> It's a place to 'store/organise ' forum data, so that it is more accessible to forum users
[03:15] <robotgeek> manicka: i've spoken to you before, and you know my views, so i will stay away from this discussion
[03:16] <manicka> ok
[03:16] <manicka> :)
[03:18] <mgalvin> first if forum users find the wiki unfriendly (understandable for noobs) how does *another* **wiki** solve the problem??
[03:21] <manicka> That would be a point if both wikis were Doc projects. The Storage Facility is not a Documentation project
[03:24] <mgalvin> its a knowledge base correct?
[03:24] <mgalvin> of sorts
[03:24] <manicka> the data entered at doc.gwos.org has been mainly completed by a handful of maintainers. Users do not generally contribute
[03:25] <manicka> yes a knowledgebase
[03:29] <LaserJock> so the forums can't handle the knowledgebase type structure?
[03:29] <mgalvin> why would that info not fit into the ubuntu wiki or h.u.c or something similar
[03:31] <mgalvin> ubuntu is all about openness, why is it necessary to have a separate knowledgebase on a separate (no obvious) site?
[03:31] <manicka> it's not as easy to store and create the knowledgebase because of license restrictions
[03:31] <mgalvin> s/no/non/
[03:32] <manicka> options were investigated to make it part of the forums site itself, but the forum software couldn't handle the task
[03:32] <mgalvin> so ultimately this is fundamentally about lic issues, correct?
[03:32] <manicka> it's all explained on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF
[03:32] <mgalvin> mostly
[03:33] <mgalvin> right i started reading that, just want to make sure i am clear...
[03:33] <manicka> some of those sections are still being redrafted as we speak
[03:34] <manicka> the History and About sections are finalised
[03:35] <mgalvin> ok, at any rate, i will read what more I can find on the issue and follow in the appropriate places
[03:35] <mgalvin> manicka: thanks for filling me in a bit
[03:36] <manicka> np :)
[03:36] <LaserJock> so UDSF is Creative-Commons Public Domain which is why there could be some issues I suppose
[03:36] <manicka> feel free to add comment to the talk page
[03:37] <mgalvin> i will do
[03:38] <manicka> I'm not 100% sure on the reason for that licence. It was implemented after extensive discussions between mdke and king bahamut
[03:39] <mgalvin> how long has http://doc.gwos.org been around?
[03:41] <manicka> hmmm, online since about Oct 2005 from memory
[03:46] <manicka> bbl
[04:22] <mgalvin> most of the stuff (that i have seen so far) on doc.gwos.org is just links to other articles, not much real original content... and many of those links lead to non noob friendly material
[04:23] <mgalvin> additionally how is a noob supposed to find doc.gwos.org... i didn't find it right off the bat, i had to ask
[04:27] <_jason> Hello, who can I discuss an issue I have with help.ubuntu.com documentation with?
[04:28] <robotgeek> hey _jason , right here i guess
[04:30] <_jason> Well, someone just came into #ubuntu asking how to remove realplayer after installing it using help.ubuntu.com instructions (ch. 3, question 3).  The thing is that those instrucitons say to just run the .bin executable from real.com and don't provide either directions on removing it or a warning that it will be difficult to remove.  I haven't installed it myself, so I don't know if it provides an easy to use shortcut to remove it in
[04:33] <LaserJock> _jason: which doc was it?
[04:33] <robotgeek> _jason: usually, you can just remove the symlink, and the directory to which it was installed
[04:33] <robotgeek> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03.html
[04:33] <_jason> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03.html#id2526342
[04:34] <robotgeek> the plugins it installed can be removed by "sudo rm /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/nphelix.*
[04:35] <_jason> robotgeek: true, I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone brand new to ubuntu and probably to linux too if he is reading the starterguide
[04:36] <_jason> I just feel like that would improve the documentation, just thought I'd share my thoughts
[04:36] <robotgeek> _jason: yeah, true that
[05:03] <jsgotangco> i like the idea of the USDF its just about quick and simple howtos
[05:04] <jjesse> i don't know, i like it and also at times don't like, i guess i don't understand why just not use the wiki
[05:04] <jsgotangco> true
[05:05] <jsgotangco> ill add my comments on that
[05:05] <jjesse> all i know is that mdke has spent a lot of time on it
[05:10] <LaserJock> mgalvin: ping?
[05:11] <mgalvin> LaserJock: pong?
[05:12] <LaserJock> I'm running vmware-player from my Windows XP laptop
[05:13] <jsgotangco> that's pretty good
[05:13] <mgalvin> sweet :)
[05:14] <jjesse> i got a buddy to try linux thru vmplayer
[05:14] <jjesse> he "likes what he sees"
[05:14] <mgalvin> great
[05:14] <LaserJock> all I had to do was change the path to the iso 
[05:14] <LaserJock> oh, and change /dev/fd0 to A:
[05:15] <mgalvin> yup
[05:15] <robotgeek> LaserJock: howz the speed? faster than a live cd?
[05:15] <LaserJock> well, I'm using a livecd .iso at the moment so no ;-)
[05:16] <jjesse> runs fine on my buddy's laptop, so much better then through qemu
[05:17] <LaserJock> hmm, seems to be slower in Windows than it was on linux, I think the comps should be fairly equivalent
[05:19] <LaserJock> oh, I had some weird Flash thing playing in Firefox. much faster now
[05:20] <mgalvin> LaserJock: feel free to add that info to the wiki if you have time, or i can do always do it in the a.m.
[05:20] <LaserJock> mgalvin: what should I add? Just that it works in windows if you change the paths?
[05:22] <mgalvin> maybe something under managing the vms such as == Using Your Virtual Machines on Windows == or something
[05:22] <mgalvin> or maybe under additional info
[05:22] <mgalvin> not totally sure atm
[05:22] <mgalvin> i am half asleep
[05:22] <LaserJock> k, you can fix in the morning ;-)
[05:22] <mgalvin> ok :)
[05:22] <mgalvin> bed time for me... good night all
[05:43] <LaserJock> ok, I just added a little bit to mgalvin's wiki page on using VMware-Player in Windows
[07:55] <robotgeek> hey Burgundavia 
[07:55] <Burgundavia> salut robotgeek 
[07:55] <robotgeek> getting to work on integrating the ndiswrapper arrticles, 4 in all. 
[08:01] <robotgeek> i think i'm going to work with only 2 at the moment, it's too much information
[08:19] <robotgeek> does the ubuntu moin install differ in any significant way from the default moin install?
[08:20] <rob> hello
[08:20] <robotgeek> hey rob 
[08:21] <rob> wiki docs in the distro, hmm
[08:22] <robotgeek> rob: no, i wanted a install to test out some "radical" wiki editing
[08:22] <rob> you can roll back the wiki, but if its really radical, check with Burgundavia or mdke
[08:23] <rob> cause the rollback could still be painful
[08:23] <robotgeek> rob: i know, i prefer to do it locally, and then paste it. think it's a lot cleaner that ways
[08:24] <rob> I would just do it in a text editor, then edit the page and hit preview
[08:24] <rob> or just make a new page on the wiki, and not save it
[08:24] <rob> in fact, I'm sure there are several sites out there that will give you your own wiki just for signing up
[08:25] <robotgeek> hmm, yes. i use vim on the wiki stuff anyways
[08:41] <mdke> rob!
[08:41] <rob> hi mdke 
[08:42] <mdke> hello
[08:42] <mdke> nice to see you
[08:42] <rob> yes, been a while
[08:42] <mdke> how are you?
[08:43] <rob> pretty good, yourself?
[08:43] <mdke> fine
[08:43] <robotgeek> hey mdke 
[08:44] <mdke> we've missed your work on the desktopguide rob :0
[08:44] <mdke> hi robotgeek 
[08:45] <rob> yeah I'm not had a lot of spare time lately
[08:47] <mdke> rob, will you be working on docs again/
[08:47] <mdke> -> ?
[08:48] <rob> not sure
[08:49] <mdke> ok
[08:49] <mdke> as long as you let us know :)
[08:49] <rob> the only time I've had to myself and a pc is with a laptop with no net connection
[08:51] <rob> but the upshot is I've learnt a lot of other computer related stuff
[08:51] <rob> such as python
[08:51] <mdke> cool
[08:51] <mdke> rob, it's totally understandable not to have time :) Just let us know so we can plan stuff
[08:52] <rob> most of my pc usage has been while minding my new (well 5 months old) daughter
[08:52] <mdke> heh
[08:52] <rob> so go ahead without me, I'll still poke in from time to time
[08:52] <mdke> ok
[08:54] <rob> maybe in a few weeks I'll have more time, but I'm undecided if I'll keep doing docs or look at motu or something else
[08:58] <rob> the other killer of my time has been work, I used to work shift (and solaris looks after itself pretty well), now I'm a "windows system admin" guy, its flat out
[08:59] <rob> I'm getting my glasses fixed, I haven't spent so long looking at pc screens in ages
[09:02] <mdke> that's cool
[09:02] <mdke> -> work
[09:03] <mdke> bhuvan, btw can you have a look at the gnump3d thread, I couldn't find the guide in the serverguide
[09:11] <bhuvan> mdke, yep. does he mean the desktop guide ?
[09:11] <mdke> bhuvan, no, that's a server program: it's not in the desktopguide. it was in the faqguide for 5.10
[09:16] <robotgeek> yay, finally got moin isntalled and working (from ubuntu repos)
[09:17] <mdke> robotgeek, nice work. I have never quite succeeded in that. Did you do fastcgi?
[09:17] <mdke> feel free to write a guide... ;)
[09:17] <robotgeek> mdke: less /usr/share/doc/moin/Readme.Debian :)
[09:20] <robotgeek> i'm deciding what colors to use for the wireless page, any tips
[09:21] <bhuvan> mdke, any comments on s/Server Starter Guide/Server Guide/ ?
[09:21] <mdke> bhuvan, i'll mail them
[09:21] <mdke> -> work for real
[09:22] <bhuvan> mdke, thanks
[09:22] <robotgeek> the ubuntu wiki is faster than the wiki on my local machine
[09:23] <bhuvan> robotgeek, did any customisation ? for me it was too cool when i tried long back in debian unstable
[09:24] <robotgeek> bhuvan: no customization yet, i just wanted to get it to work. 
[09:24] <bhuvan> robotgeek, what is your system conf ?
[09:24] <robotgeek> heh, it's a 500 mhz machine. with 512 mb ram
[09:24] <robotgeek> i bet it will be faster on my laptop, lol
[09:25] <bhuvan> robotgeek, what are the additional apache modules you use
[09:27] <robotgeek> bhuvan: there are a lot, basically the default ubuntu apache2 instal
[09:28] <bhuvan> robotgeek, the performance may improve if you disable unused apache modules. imho, moin performance is too good compared to mediawiki
[09:29] <robotgeek> ah, yeah. i have stuff like vhost and crap, which i am not using
[09:30] <robotgeek> bhuvan: no apparently the only modules i have enabled are "cgid userdir"
[09:35] <robotgeek> okay, i think i will script this. even vim macros will take long
[09:48] <robotgeek> mdke: i'm thinking of having a color for "Works OOTB", "Works with...", "No/Need More Info" 
[10:04] <mdke> robotgeek_zzz, what moin install did you do? if you use fastcgi, it should help. normal cgi is very slow
[10:04] <mdke> but fastcgi is hard to get working :)
[10:09] <robotgeek> heh, back mdke 
[10:09] <robotgeek> mdke: instead of colors, can i do subpages?
[10:11] <mdke> you can do anything
[10:12] <robotgeek> HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCards/ (WorksOutofthebox)|(WorksWithNdiswrapper)|
[10:12] <robotgeek> and get rid of the big list there. 
[10:13] <robotgeek> okay, will work on a test page first
[03:03] <Belutz> jsgotangco, are you coming on feb 1st?
[03:06] <jsgotangco> Belutz, nope busy at work...will be in a trip
[03:06] <Belutz> jsgotangco, ah i see
[03:07] <jsgotangco> i guess everything is well on the upcoming jakarta event?
[03:08] <Belutz> yup, everyone is preparing
[03:09] <Belutz> someone still trying to convince the minister of telecomunication and informatics to come to the event
[03:09] <Belutz> and the minister of R&D
[03:10] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:15] <Belutz> :p
[07:50] <LaserJock> mgalvin: did you see my addition to the vmware-qemu wiki?
[07:51] <mgalvin> LaserJock: yup, great, thanks :)
[07:52] <LaserJock> mgalvin: np
[09:55] <jjesse> communit council meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
[09:55] <jjesse> just starting
[10:56] <LaserJock> mdke: so what about the Packaging Guide, which is under GPL? Can I use wiki material if it is PD?
[10:56] <mdke> yes
[10:56] <mdke> you can do whatever
[10:56] <LaserJock> if it was MIT/BSD could I?
[10:57] <Kyral> Frankly I don't give a **** as long as you say something along the lines of "This document contains material originally written by <me>" or somesuch
[10:57] <mdke> Kyral, omg, go read some licenses
[10:57] <Kyral> huh?
[10:58] <LaserJock> Kyral: I don't even care about that but we have to worry about licensing
[10:58] <Kyral> ah
[10:58] <Kyral> this is why I stay outta this stuff...makes my life hard lol
[10:58] <mdke> Kyral, the sort of non-free licenses that we are trying to exclude are those which require accreditation like that
[10:59] <Kyral> ah
[10:59] <Kyral> I just don't want someone COMPLETELY passing my work as thier own ;P
[11:00] <LaserJock> well, I'm kinda stuck to the GPL as far as I know because all the Debian developer docs are GPL
[11:00] <Kyral> yah
[11:00] <Kyral> GPL++
[11:00] <LaserJock> but GPL isn't compatible with GFDL as far as I know :(
[11:01] <Kyral> ...GNU made a license that isn't compatable with one of thier own licenses?
[11:01] <mdke> GFDL is so unfree
[11:02] <LaserJock> I don't quite understand it but according to GNU they aren't compatible
[11:23] <mdke> bustacap, welcome aboard :)
[11:24] <Kyral> hes not in yet lol
[11:24] <robotgeek> lol
[11:24] <mdke> Kyral, this is #ubuntu-doc
[11:24] <Kyral> ah lol
[11:24] <bustacap> thanks..
[11:24] <robotgeek> i think i am going to for membership soon :)
[11:24] <Kyral> like i said I don't care for procedure most of the time ;P
[11:25] <mdke> procedure?
[11:25] <Kyral> I dunno
[11:25] <Kyral> mind isn't right because I'm hungry
[11:32] <robotgeek> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects does someone need to start working on the Kubuntu part, or is it done? doe dapper?
[11:32] <robotgeek> for dapper, err. 
[11:33] <mdke> robotgeek, which project? the kubuntu docs are worked on by jjesse, you can talk to him
[11:34] <robotgeek> say, the Kubuntu starter guide?
[11:35] <mdke> that is pretty much on hold I think
[11:35] <robotgeek> ah, which needs most hep then?
[11:35] <Kyral> Any idea when a "prototype" of Ubuntu Express will be out?
[11:35] <mdke> Kyral, #-devel
[11:35] <robotgeek> Kubuntu Release Notes?
[11:35] <Kyral> yah yah
[11:35] <Kyral> I know
[11:35] <mdke> robotgeek, not sure, mail the list or ask jjesse
[11:35] <robotgeek> okay. will do, thanks mdke