[08:38] <jpatrick> evening \sh
[08:38] <\sh> hey jpatrick 
[08:55] <juliux> hi ogra_ibook 
[09:17] <juliux> hi lucasvo 
[09:19] <lucasvo> hi juliux
[09:19] <lucasvo> whats on?
[09:38] <Bonzodog> Hi Kyral
[09:38] <Kyral> this will be a most interesting meeting
[09:39] <Bonzodog> it will
[09:39] <bddebian> It will?
[09:39] <Kyral> bddebian: PM and I will explain
[09:39] <bddebian> Why?
[09:39] <bddebian> Hmm
[09:39] <bddebian> Who's PM?
[09:40] <Kyral> PM me...
[09:40] <Kyral> *smack*
[09:40] <bddebian> Ohh hehe, I though you were saying that you and PM would explain ;-P
[09:43] <sivang> hi all
[09:43] <bddebian> Heya sivang
[09:44] <sivang> hi bddebian , how you been?
[09:47] <bddebian> sivang: Not bad, thanks.  You?
[09:48] <Tonio_> hi all
[09:48] <sivang> bddebian: going through some ups and downs, mainly flu that's coming and going
[09:48] <bddebian> Hello Tonio_
[09:48] <bddebian> sivang: Sorry to hear that :-(
[09:48] <sivang> bddebian: better now, mostly need to get some more rest
[09:52] <Kingbahamut|Werk> good day all
[09:52] <earobinson222> hey Kingbahamut|Werk 
[09:53] <Kyral> Lets rock shall we?
[09:53] <jpatrick> Kyral: fine by me :)
[09:53] <Kyral> oh wait..
[09:53] <Kyral> i'm not important lol :P
[09:53] <earobinson222> you are to me :)
[09:53] <Bonzodog> Is sabdfl attending?
[09:54] <ogra> Bonzodog, unlikely
[09:54] <Kamion> Bonzodog: he's currently on a tour of Asia so I think it's unlikely
[09:54] <ogra> Kamion, elmo or mako ? or do you drive alone today ?
[09:54] <Kingbahamut|Werk> that seems a likely assumption 
[09:54] <Kamion> mako: here?
[09:55] <Kamion> ogra: see other channel where I was just looking for elmo
[09:55] <ogra> heh, yes
[09:57] <Kyral> someone found him :P
[09:57] <bddebian> Wow, we are graced by elmo's presence
[09:57] <Kamion> hi elmo - now with any luck mako's not doing Terribly Important MITish Things
[09:58] <Kamion> or sabdfl manages to get connectivity from Singapore
[09:59] <Kingbahamut|Werk> it could happen , Kamion
[09:59] <Kamion> otherwise we can't do new member candidates
[09:59] <earobinson> that would suck :(
[09:59] <jpatrick> ...for me...
[09:59] <Kamion> elmo: you don't have mako's phone number do you?
[10:00] <elmo> Kamion: I have a couple for him, I'll try them
[10:00] <Kamion> ta
[10:00] <GnuKemist> hello everyone
[10:00] <Kyral> what hacker would be caught dead without at least a terminal? ;P
[10:00] <Kamion> ok, I guess we might as well start going through the bits of the agenda that don't require voting, anyway
[10:01] <Kamion> Malone migration
[10:01] <Kamion> vuntz: here?
[10:01] <elmo> he's on his way
[10:01] <mako> greetings!
[10:01] <Kamion> (vuntz said to me earlier that he might not be here)
[10:01] <Kamion> ah, great
[10:01] <vuntz> Kamion: yes
[10:01] <ogra> yay, mako
[10:01] <Kamion> hi mako
[10:01] <segfault> hi
[10:01] <GnuKemist> mako howdy
[10:01] <Kamion> vuntz: personally, I tend to agree that this is a TB item
[10:01] <bddebian> GnuKemist: good nick :-)
[10:02] <vuntz> Kamion: well, I'm okay to do this on a TB meeting :-)
[10:02] <GnuKemist> bddebian thanx  =)
[10:02] <vuntz> mark told me CC or TB, so I choose CC ;-)
[10:02] <Kamion> vuntz: that said, ultimately it's more Canonical/Launchpad management, which neither the CC nor the TB necessarily have jurisdiction over ;-)
[10:02] <vuntz> right
[10:02] <vuntz> and I feel this is one of the issue, btw
[10:03] <Kamion> it's perhaps worth saying that, with the amount of man-years that've been put into Launchpad, it *is* justifiably important to Canonical to get it all actually being used at some point
[10:03] <vuntz> I totally agree
[10:03] <Kamion> and I think without a sizeable project using it, it won't get the user attention it needs to get its problems fixed
[10:03] <vuntz> the problem I'm seeing is that the community was not asked when migration should happen
[10:03] <mako> are we discussingwhat to do with the first agenda item?
[10:03] <Kamion> yeah, sort of
[10:04] <elmo> vuntz: did anyone from the community strenuously object or is this a hypothetical/academic objection?
[10:04] <\sh> vuntz: to be honest, launchpad malone migration was overdue...
[10:04] <vuntz> it's just kind of weird to learn one week before the migration that it will happen
[10:04] <vuntz> elmo: I wanted to do it after the dapper release
[10:04] <bustacap> hehe yeah, I changed the doco pointing to the bugzilla the night before it happened - I'm not even in the 'loop'
[10:04] <Kamion> it had actually been planned for before dapper, and announced as such in public (ish) at UDU ...
[10:05] <vuntz> not everyone was at UDU ;-)
[10:05] <Kamion> so it was late, rather than out-of-the-blue, I think
[10:05] <smurf> vuntz: that's actually better than learning abot it a week afterwards ...
[10:05] <vuntz> should I move the item to the TB?
[10:05] <mako> it was *real* late
[10:05] <Kamion> yeah, but it was publicised more than that I think
[10:05] <\sh> vuntz: the time while we used malone for launchpad, the people weren't complaining so much about difficulties...other complains were only coming from ubuntu developers, and those issues were addressed during UBZ and are addressed via malone now and on  #launchpad
[10:05] <smurf> ... so I wouldn't complain too strenuously. ;-)
[10:05] <sivang> Kamion++
[10:05] <mako> IIRC it was planned for *warty*
[10:05] <Kamion> (hey, we were meant to be using Malone for Hoary. Never mind eh.)
[10:05] <mako> at least in mark's mind
[10:05] <Kamion> yeah, end of warty cycle
[10:05] <raphink> hi all
[10:06] <raphink> I'll be around for CC in 5 mins
[10:06] <jpatrick> hello raphink 
[10:06] <vuntz> I'm not challenging the decision, just the way it was taken
[10:06] <Kyral> raphink: its now ;P
[10:06] <\sh> "we used malone for universe" even
[10:06] <vuntz> from a community point of view, it kind of sucked, imho
[10:06] <sivang> \sh: :)
[10:06] <mako> vuntz: i see what you mean
[10:06] <raphink> well i just have to do something quick so I'll join
[10:06] <raphink> count me in :)
[10:06] <vuntz> I'd like to fix this for the future
[10:06] <Kamion> FWIW, the Soyuz migration is happening this week ...
[10:06] <mako> i think the problem is that many of us that are more involved in this had taken this move for granted for YEARS
[10:06] <freeflying_> raphink: hi
[10:07] <jjesse> what is soyuz?
[10:07] <Kamion> although that ought to not affect people so visibly, only uploaders
[10:07] <Kamion> jjesse: replacement for katie
[10:07] <sivang> Kamion: shh :)
[10:07] <Kyral> next question: What is Katie ;P
[10:07] <elmo> vuntz: we also have to balance the timing of the announcement  with expectations - we don't want to announce a move for a certain date way in advance, only to find as we get closer we're not ready
[10:07] <Kamion> Kyral: archive management
[10:07] <sivang> Kyral: one of elmo's gfs
[10:07] <mako> Kyral: archive maintaince software
[10:07] <Kyral> Kamion: I know :P
[10:07] <sivang> Kyral: ;-)
[10:07] <Kyral> Kamion: I was expecting it from jjesse ;P
[10:07] <minghua> hi freeflying_, glad you make it
[10:07] <mdke> evening
[10:07] <mako> vuntz: ok.. 
[10:07] <Bonzodog> evening:)
[10:07] <GnuKemist> mdke hey
[10:07] <freeflying_> minghua: thx
[10:07] <mako> has this meeting officially started?
[10:08] <Bonzodog> I believe so
[10:08] <\sh> and thinking about soyuz landing...that is a very hard..to say goodbye to katie
[10:08] <mdke> mako, looks like it to me
[10:08] <kjcole> vuntz: It did just seem to suddenly "happen".  (It didn't bother me, but I was also a wee bit surprised.  My reaction was more like "Really? Wow! Cool!")
[10:08] <elmo> vuntz: so while the final date of migration was only announced with a short lead time, I think the fact that migration to malone was going to be the way forward sooner or later, was reasonably well publicised 
[10:08] <vuntz> elmo: my point is "it was announced and community was not involved in the decision"
[10:08] <elmo> vuntz: dude, that's not true
[10:08] <Kamion> in the case of Soyuz, my feeling's that the (non-uploader) community won't notice or care, and hopefully I think the plan's for uploads still to happen through upload.ubuntu.com so I suspect only a few core developers will really notice the difference
[10:08] <elmo> vuntz: there was no major community reaction
[10:08] <mako> elmo: i think vuntz has a point
[10:08] <vuntz> elmo: dude
[10:09] <elmo> if there had been, and we'd forced ahead anyway, then I think you'd have more of a point
[10:09] <vuntz> elmo: I can't look at my bugs ;-)
[10:09] <elmo> vuntz: err, why not?
[10:09] <elmo> mako: sure, not saying he doesn't
[10:09] <vuntz> elmo: it's a lot harder to triage now
[10:09] <mako> there are number of decisions like malone, soyuz, etc that have been goals we (speaking as canonical and early ubuntu people) have taken for granted
[10:09] <vuntz> that's a big regression for people
[10:09] <vuntz> but that's not the point of the item in the agenda
[10:09] <mako> and that certain people in the community may (rightfully?) felt cut out of
[10:10] <mako> at the *very least* we should identify those other long-term goals that are sort of things that have been here since the beginning
[10:10] <mako> and document those
[10:10] <jjesse> is there a place that shows these "goals"
[10:10] <vuntz> elmo: I would have pushed harder to delay the migration if I knew it would happen so soon
[10:10] <mako> jjesse: no, that's my point
[10:10] <mako> jjesse: and getting pretty close to my first suggestion :)
[10:10] <LaserJock> but how would you include the community? Have a poll?
[10:10] <Kamion> LaserJock: it has to be a little more informed than that
[10:10] <earobinson> LaserJock, why not use meetings?
[10:10] <\sh> and to regard some decisions....if sabdfl said, we will make it this way, it's the law...even if he's wrong^Wright
[10:11] <Kamion> gauging informed reaction rather than a straight yay/nay
[10:11] <kjcole> mako: Sort of a "Book of Genesis" of what begat what and when.  Wiki?
[10:11] <mako> announcements, meetings, discussions
[10:11] <vuntz> \sh: right, but this needs to be publicized
[10:11] <Kamion> wiki.launchpad.canonical.com has a lot of what's in the pipeline infrastructure-wise
[10:11] <vuntz> it was not
[10:11] <mako> this isn't sabfdl forcing something
[10:11] <bustacap> lambert, perhaps announcing in the official doco and on the Ubuntu dot com news section along with the mailing lists..
[10:11] <mako> there are other examples of that
[10:11] <Kyral> send it over the Announce ML
[10:11] <LaserJock> my point is that it is easy to say the community needs to be involved, but what would that mean? A CC vote?
[10:11] <mako> LaserJock: if it came to that
[10:11] <mako> i don't think that's the issue
[10:12] <\sh> mako: I forgot the "would"
[10:12] <elmo> btw, the  soyuz migration is very different
[10:12] <mako> i think vuntz just feels like there are some important decisions that are being taken without involving everyone they effect
[10:12] <Kamion> personally I really don't want the CC ending up voting on whether or not to move some piece of infrastructure to Launchpad or not
[10:12] <elmo> as virtually nothing changes from a developer perspective
[10:12] <vuntz> it's not about voting
[10:12] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, that's what I was saying above too
[10:12] <vuntz> it's about telling the community what will happen
[10:12] <vuntz> so the community can at least give some feedback
[10:12] <mako> vuntz: right, it's about deliberation and community involvement :)
[10:12] <LaserJock> ok, well that makes sense
[10:12] <Kyral> Why don't we use the Announce ML more?
[10:13] <mako> alright, i've got two proposals
[10:13] <bustacap> Kyral, the migration was in the devel ML..
[10:13] <earobinson> Kyral, has a point
[10:13] <Kamion> Kyral: we do use it a fair bit, and -devel-announce too; you have to balance the amount of traffic that people actually want to read
[10:13] <mako> (1) canonical people try to come up with a list of other of these assumed trajectory items
[10:13] <\sh> mako: but we said many times, that we will move from bugzilla to malone for main...at least since I was starting and I think many months before
[10:13] <mako> it's s small list
[10:13] <vuntz> \sh: for me, it was long-term item
[10:13] <mako> (2) vuntz comes up with a list of concrete suggestions for how this could be avoided and when we choose to follow up on those solutions
[10:13] <bustacap> vuntz, are you a reader of the devel-announce list?
[10:13] <vuntz> \sh: like, in one or two years
[10:14] <Kyral> how many "normal" (non-devel) users subscribe to the -devel-announce?
[10:14] <vuntz> bustacap: yes
[10:14] <bustacap> Kyral, that's my point..
[10:14] <Kamion> Kyral: how many normal users care about the sorts of things announced there?
[10:14] <vuntz> mako: yes, I can handle (2) if people agree
[10:14] <mako> vuntz: why don't you do 2, work with us if you want, and then we present something at the next meeting
[10:14] <bustacap> I think the migration was not only a devel issue
[10:14] <Kyral> Kamion: if I hear the issue right, its about informing the community yes?
[10:14] <vuntz> mako: sure
[10:14] <\sh> vuntz: it's a nightmare to use two different systems for bug tracking
[10:14] <vuntz> it's okay for me
[10:14] <vuntz> \sh: I understand
[10:14] <mako> i don't doubt that there are things we could do better
[10:15] <mako> in this regard
[10:15] <seb128> \sh: it's better than using malone instead of bugzilla though :p
[10:15] <sivang> maybe in the future will have a more straight forward ways to track such or at least related things. (given launchpad changes are not so much of an 'ubuntu' policy maybe) https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+spec/distro-policy-tracker
[10:15] <mako> but part of the problem is that i don't think we even thought this would be controversial
[10:15] <mako> because *we* have seem it on the radar for so long
[10:15] <mako> vuntz: but i think it's ok because ther is a small number of such things :)
[10:15] <seb128> mako: right, but affects directly people workflow
[10:16] <sivang> mako: community people who have been tracking the project, saw it all along as well, just as \sh noted
[10:16] <vuntz> I was also surprised that nobody answered my concerns on ubuntu-devel about this
[10:16] <Kamion> Kyral: yeah, but I think it's a bit more than "we should post our laundry lists on -announce", since as mako says there's the question of untangling what subconscious things we actually do need to tell people in advance
[10:16] <bustacap> vuntz, would the issue be that it was not announced in more mainstream areas of the community?
[10:16] <mako> seb128: excactly
[10:16] <\sh> vuntz: regarding the cxx transition for breezy, where universe maintainers used bugzilla as well (and also for the merging stuff) it was quite confusing when to look at bugzilla and use malone for normal bug reporting and tracking for universe...for the developers (at least me) it was a nightmare
[10:16] <seb128> mako: I was a bit disapointed too than nobody replied to vuntz on the list to be honest
[10:16] <kjcole> kyral, bustacap, how many "normal" (non-devel) users filed bugs in either system?  (I honestly don't know, but I'd guess most filing bugs would read some of the afore mentioned lists already.)
[10:16] <anandaputra> Hi all
[10:16] <seb128> mako: and that the decision has been made without the distro team (but that's probably not the topic atm)
[10:16] <bustacap> kjcole, I file a fair few ;)
[10:16] <vuntz> bustacap: it should have been announced before so that people could give feedback
[10:16] <mako> seb128: well, it's related
[10:17] <LaserJock> I did reply because I was thinking "It's about time", but that's just my opinion
[10:17] <bustacap> vuntz, OK.
[10:17] <Kyral> kjcole: the way I understand it, BugZilla = Main, Malone = Universe, Multiverse
[10:17] <mako> seb128: please, work with vuntz to come up with a recommendation for how we can fix it
[10:17] <jjesse> EXIT
[10:17] <jjesse> sorry bout that
[10:17] <LaserJock> *I didn't reply
[10:17] <Kamion> yes, I think the announcement should have been a bit further in advance
[10:17] <seb128> mako: "communicate" ... :)
[10:17] <mako> seb128, vuntz: and feel free to send it to the CC before hand so we can get feedback
[10:17] <seb128> mako: but sure
[10:17] <Kamion> one of the problems was that we didn't actually have a date for it until quite close to the time
[10:17] <kjcole> bustacap, but then you come to CC meetings too.  So, you're "up" on some of the info.
[10:17] <mako> seb128: if *only* it were that easy :)
[10:17] <anandaputra> sorry i'm late..
[10:17] <bustacap> haha kjcole, I'm here for membership.. :)
[10:17] <seb128> mako: saying 2 days before "we switch friday" is not really good communication
[10:18] <mako> seb128: i tend to agree
[10:18] <bustacap> but I do like this meeting..
[10:18] <Kyral> seb128++
[10:18] <mako> seb128: and a policy of waiting more than 2 days is probably a very sane recommendation that i personally would be fully in support of
[10:18] <kjcole> kyral: Ah, I didn't start actively participating til UBZ, and then got the impression everything was moving to Malone in a matter of weeks.
[10:18] <seb128> right
[10:18] <bustacap> kjcole, it's a shame it's on now, I am supposed to be on the road driving to work now - but I organised a late start at work for today..
[10:18] <Kamion> I'm not sure we can do much more here
[10:19] <mako> alright, if you are not speaking on the topic at hand, can you please take messages into a query
[10:19] <mako> this is a busier meeting than normal
[10:19] <mako> and we want to let the europeans get to sleep :)
[10:19] <vuntz> seb128 and I will work on propositions on how to enhance communication for such things
[10:19] <Kamion> possibly worth bringing up the existence of the launchpad-users list, BTW
[10:19] <Kyral> and us ESTers to get dinner ;P
[10:19] <mako> excellent
[10:19] <sivang> mako: please do :)
[10:19] <\sh> Kamion: any statistics if there is a decrease or increase of bugreports since malone migration? I think we can only see those issues on plain numbers
[10:19] <raphink> ty mako ;)
[10:19] <vuntz> I'm happy with this :-)
[10:19] <sivang> Kamion: good point
[10:20] <mako> Bonzodog: that's not on the topic at hand :P
[10:20] <mdke> the existence of launchpad-users has shown that problems can get addressed quickly
[10:20] <mdke> the lack of documentation for malone was raised and resolved in a few days
[10:20] <mako> alright
[10:20] <mako> vuntz: so, you raised this issue.. if you're happy with this until next meeting or until you have a proposal, i'd be happy to move on :)
[10:21] <vuntz> yes, we can move one
[10:21] <vuntz> on
[10:21] <mako> excellent :)
[10:21] <mako> UDSF
[10:21] <Kamion> \sh: no idea
[10:21] <Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: Yes
[10:21] <mako> who owns this?
[10:21] <Kyral> KB
[10:21] <Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: I do 
[10:21] <mako> excellent
[10:22] <earobinson> As I understand Kingbahamut|Werk has said he has no problems with any of the docs being ported to the wiki
[10:22] <earobinson> correct?
[10:22] <Kyral> what about vice versa?
[10:22] <Kingbahamut|Werk> earobinson: no I dont
[10:22] <mako> basically, this is a proposal to start moving documents from the forums into the wiki?
[10:22] <Kyral> yah
[10:22] <mdke> not quite
[10:22] <Burgwork> mako, the concern more is a split of resources
[10:22] <Kingbahamut|Werk> The USDF is an archive of existing forum data, thats its purpose
[10:23] <mdke> a wiki exists to which documents are moved from the forum
[10:23] <anandaputra> Sorry i'm late.. About membership, are they still opening?
[10:23] <mdke> it's not the Ubuntu wiki
[10:23] <manicka> it's not a competing documentation project
[10:23] <earobinson> anandaputra, hasent started yet
[10:23] <mako> anandaputra: we'll get there
[10:23] <manicka> it is an archive of forum data
[10:23] <anandaputra> mako, ok.. :)
[10:23] <bustacap> what is 'data'?
[10:23] <bustacap> all of the posts?
[10:24] <Kyral> Howtos, commonly answered questions...
[10:24] <Kyral> I think
[10:24] <manicka> key information posted in the threads
[10:24] <Burgwork> afaics, there is nothing in the USDF that cannot find a home in the ubuntu wiki
[10:24] <earobinson> I think that the docs are just another fork, like another distro both can use the data
[10:24] <Kyral> wasn't the issue that Forums things met with resistance in the Wiki?
[10:25] <Kingbahamut|Werk> There has been that in the past Kyral 
[10:25] <mdke> Kyral, no, far from it
[10:25] <Burgwork> Kyral, no, they just were not worked on
[10:25] <Kyral> okay..
[10:25] <Kyral> Just wanna get my facts clear
[10:25] <\sh> Burgwork: depends on the license of the published forum data...
[10:25] <mako> ok.. 
[10:25] <mdke> can someone say what the issue for the CC is here?
[10:25] <mako> lets focus here
[10:25] <Kingbahamut|Werk> forum possesses no license 
[10:25] <mako> mdke: excactly :)
[10:26] <mako> i've read the proposal
[10:26] <manicka> If the data was worked into the wiki it wouldn't an archive of the forums anymore, that's its purpose
[10:26] <mako> i have two questions:
[10:26] <Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: ask, capn. 
[10:26] <mako> (1) what the is the state of any technical implementation that would need to be done in order to make this happen?
[10:26] <mako> what needs to happen and who is going to do it and when?
[10:27] <anandaputra> brb..
[10:27] <mdke> mako, you've missed the point slightly. There is no proposal. There is a wiki, at doc.gwos.org which has howtos from the forum on it.
[10:27] <vuntz> (that's more than 2 questions ;-))
[10:27] <mako> (2) sabdfl apparently asked for a joint docteam/forums proposal.. this seems very udsf.. are there concerns or open issues from the docteam?
[10:27] <mako> vuntz: ssh :)
[10:27] <Kyral> Could I suggest a team that looks through the forums on a regular basis and "picks up" howtos for the Wiki?
[10:27] <Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: 2, not as far as I know. The collection of the documentation is there to be collected at will bot those who wish to collec it
[10:27] <manicka> there is no proposal to migrate
[10:28] <Kingbahamut|Werk> bot = by
[10:28] <mdke> afaics however there is no open issue. Some members of the documentation team have expressed our sadness that a separate wiki was required, rather than using the Ubuntu wiki, where we'd attempted to make it easy for forum members to contribute
[10:28] <mdke> but, it quickly became clear that that is not an option
[10:29] <Kingbahamut|Werk> mdke: we dont want that sorrow , but I understand the complication
[10:29] <mako> mdke: ok.. so there *was* controversy that was laid to rest
[10:29] <Kamion> Kyral: (in general the first step is to assemble a group of people wanting to do it, rather than to propose a team)
[10:29] <manicka> most o fthe work on UDSf is done by a small group of people
[10:29] <Kyral> Kamion: I would...
[10:29] <elmo> I'm just going over the meeting logs from last time, the issue then seemed to be a) duplication/waste of documenting resources, b) the official forums pointing at the unofficial udsf, instead of the wiki, c) licensing stuff
[10:29] <mako> my position tends to be that the CC should really only get involved in a project when there is a conflict
[10:29] <manicka> not by lots of users
[10:29] <Burgwork> mako, I am resigned to the existance of the USDF. Doens't mean I like it or I think it needs to exist
[10:29] <mdke> mako, that is correct
[10:29] <earobinson> Kamion, so would I
[10:29] <mako> ubuntu is not a permission-based system
[10:29] <mdke> i have the same opinion as Burgwork 
[10:29] <mako> or world
[10:30] <mako> people do good work, create useful resources, and that's good
[10:30] <jjesse> i echo mdke and burgwork
[10:30] <Kamion> what mako said; if you're all getting along and doing stuff, er, keep at it :)
[10:30] <Burgwork> however I recognize the realities that USDF is nicer to edit than our Moin based wiki
[10:30] <bustacap> surely the Howtos on the USDF can be assimilated into the Ubuntu wiki
[10:30] <Kingbahamut|Werk> mako: that was the intent, an archival of data useful to the user 
[10:30] <earobinson> bustacap, no one has said they cant
[10:30] <mdke> bustacap, it takes twice as much work: docs go to two places, not one
[10:30] <manicka> they are there to be used by anyone
[10:31] <Bonzodog> and the data is directly from the forums, almost uneditied, apart from grammatical errors
[10:31] <Kyral> the very nature of the Wiki is that anyone can add to it
[10:31] <Bonzodog> it is not guaranteed to work
[10:31] <bustacap> perhaps new howtos should be only drawn up in the Ubuntu wiki and the forums left only as a forum for help questions not help documentation..
[10:31] <Bonzodog> as the how-to's are very much one persons discovered method of doing things
[10:32] <Kamion> bustacap: in reality, I don't see that it's in our power to restrict where people write documentation
[10:32] <Burgwork> USDF really actually grows out of the forums as seperate from Ubuntu thing
[10:32] <robotgeek> Bonzodog: so are several articles on the Ubuntu wiki
[10:32] <mdke> Kamion is quite right
[10:32] <mdke> there is no issue here for the CC
[10:32] <bustacap> Kamion, not a restriction but a good set of guidelines..
[10:32] <Kamion> we can recommend all we like, but UDSF grew up because people found that the wiki wasn't fulfilling their needs
[10:33] <manicka> no that's not true
[10:33] <mdke> yes that is right
[10:33] <mako> alright
[10:33] <Kamion> ok, that's one reason anyway
[10:33] <earobinson> I use both when I provide support, they are different styles IMO
[10:34] <mako> ok.. so i tend to agree that there's no issue here
[10:34] <mdke> earobinson, that's good to hear
[10:34] <mako> except i tend to agree that it would be really nice if we didn't split resources or communities
[10:34] <Kingbahamut|Werk> aggreed mdke
[10:34] <mako> the latter is actually more troubling to me
[10:34] <mako> i don't want there to be two doc teams
[10:34] <Kyral> mako++
[10:34] <mako> there are already many documents being created
[10:35] <bustacap> one stop doco shop
[10:35] <mako> maybe that's necessary.. but i'm not convinced it is
[10:35] <earobinson> mako, can you see any way that It could be made easy to copy docs to the wiki and visa versa?
[10:35] <Kamion> it's possibly worth pointing out that the nature of human interaction means that teams can only grow so big before they have to split in some way ...
[10:35] <manicka> mako: there isn't two doc teams. We are not a doc project
[10:35] <mdke> earobinson, it already is easy
[10:35] <mako> and we've run into a long history of problems with the apparent ghettoization of the forums
[10:35] <Kyral> earobinson cut and paste?
[10:35] <Kamion> 1000-person committees don't work
[10:35] <mako> manicka: you're writing documentation
[10:35] <Kyral> "ghettoization"?
[10:35] <mdke> earobinson, if you go to the forum howto section, there is a sticky on how to do it
[10:35] <mako> Kyral: yes
[10:35] <Kyral> ???
[10:35] <manicka> no, i'm archiving forum data
[10:35] <mako> like a small community of people that are cut of from the larger group
[10:36] <Burgwork> Kyral,  a divide between the forums and rest of Ubuntu
[10:36] <manicka> I don't write any docs
[10:36] <Kyral> ah
[10:36] <mako> not consulted, politically disconnected
[10:36] <mdke> manicka, copying and pasting from the forum is a doc activity that would be really useful in the Ubuntu wiki too
[10:36] <mako> disempowered
[10:36] <mako> etc
[10:36] <Burgwork> manicka, you are archive docs, thus you are creating docs
[10:36] <Kamion> mako: more like a large community of people cut off from the smaller group ;-)
[10:36] <mako> Kamion: true enough
[10:36] <earobinson> mdke, then there is no problem about spliting like mako said if it is easy
[10:36] <mako> manicka: there are many ways to create technical documentation
[10:36] <manicka> I disagree on that Burgwork
[10:36] <mako> and the docteam is open to all of them
[10:36] <Kyral> there is a general feeling like that in the Forums between some peopel
[10:37] <mako> Kyral: yes, that's my point
[10:37] <robotgeek> earobinson: the only issue is that someone has to do the same work over and over again
[10:37] <mako> and my gut feeling is that the way to fix that is not to have the forums documentation creation project and then the main project documentation project
[10:37] <Kyral> mako it should go smashy (and yes I use little language for laughs :P)
[10:37] <bustacap> the USDF folk should schedule a meeting with the ubuntu-doc team on IRC and discuss the issues
[10:37] <Kyral> bustacap++
[10:37] <mako> i think that would be wonderful
[10:37] <vuntz> agree
[10:37] <earobinson> but mdke said it is easy to copy docs back and forth, robotgeek to so you dont have to do the work 2 times
[10:37] <mako> that's just me speaking though
[10:37] <Kingbahamut|Werk> bustacap: we have and do still discuss 
[10:37] <mako> Kingbahamut|Werk: good
[10:38] <mako> but as far as this issues goes
[10:38] <mako> i don't think there is a CC issue unless there is a conflict
[10:38] <mako> and both sides say there is not
[10:38] <bustacap> :)
[10:38] <earobinson> bustacap,++
[10:38] <mdke> let's move on
[10:38] <mako> so please, go ahead, do good work
[10:38] <manicka> agreed: mako
[10:38] <mako> and if the USDF folks want free advice, they should look into trying to work with others who are working toward the same goals (even if they're trying to get there in different ways)
[10:39] <mako> :)
[10:39] <manicka> :)
[10:39] <Bonzodog> :)
[10:39] <bustacap> hear hear
[10:39] <mako> Kingbahamut|Werk: thanks for writing that up
[10:39] <Kyral> :)
[10:39] <raphink> :)
[10:39] <earobinson> :)
[10:39] <mako> the method of pulling things out of the forums seems like a great project
[10:39] <mako> i'd love to see as closely integrated into the rest of our documentation work as possible :)
[10:40] <mdke> me too
[10:40] <earobinson> me 3
[10:40] <Kyral> me 4
[10:40] <Bonzodog> mako: feel free to have a good browse around the UDSF....
[10:40] <dihack> !define UDSF 
[10:40] <mdke> moving on?
[10:40] <dihack> any google bot here? :)
[10:40] <Kyral> Ubuntu Doc Storage Facility
[10:41] <dihack> o ic
[10:41] <earobinson> dihack, link -> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
[10:42] <earobinson> mdke, ya I think so no problem so lets move on
[10:42] <mako> ok.. 
[10:42] <mako> for everyone that was offended
[10:42] <mako> i was not calling the forums "ghetto" in any sort of derogatory way
[10:42] <manicka> ok :)
[10:42] <mako> you can look up the term if your curious
[10:42] <GnuKemist> mako no offense taken I'm sure
[10:42] <mdke> lol
[10:42] <mdke> americans...
[10:42] <mako> well, there was some
[10:43] <mako> because many people complained to ryan evidently :)
[10:43] <Kyral> mako, in the words of Dash Rendar. "I am not offended, I have been offended by professionals" :P
[10:43] <mako> and i'm busying trying to explain myself in a query right now :)
[10:43] <Kyral> lol
[10:43] <GnuKemist> hehe
[10:43] <Bonzodog> lol
[10:43] <licio> :-)
[10:43] <Kyral> Ryan == ?
[10:43] <dihack> thanks guys, i planing to use ubuntu, just like ananda tell me how good ubuntu
[10:43] <mako> i merely wanted to make the point that i wanted more communcation between the forums, people who use the forums, and th rest of the project
[10:43] <mdke> Kyral, forum administrator
[10:43] <mako> and more empowerment
[10:43] <mako> geez
[10:43] <Kyral> mdke: which one :P
[10:43] <ubuntugeek> yes, just here defending the ghettoization project..
[10:43] <mako> :)
[10:44] <Kyral> UG?
[10:44] <Kamion> wiki licensing
[10:44] <Kamion> (if we're done here ...)
[10:44] <mako> please
[10:44] <GnuKemist> hehe
[10:44] <Kamion> mdke: I think my concern on first reading is that the detail of "why" comes last rather than first
[10:44] <mdke> Kamion, i was kinda hoping you guys would totally rewrite it
[10:44] <Kamion> heh
[10:45] <mdke> Kamion, I just chucked something down to start the ball rolling
[10:45] <vuntz> small comment about the proposed mail: we can't do public domain everywhere
[10:45] <vuntz> eg, I can't release my work as public domain in France
[10:45] <Kamion> it should also specify CC-PD
[10:45] <vuntz> (afaik)
[10:45] <mdke> vuntz, ??
[10:45] <mdke> you _have_ to retain copyright in what you write?
[10:45] <vuntz> yes
[10:46] <vuntz> well
[10:46] <vuntz> it's about "droits moraux"
[10:46] <Kyral> GFDL
[10:46] <Kamion> (FWIW http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/ is the text in question)
[10:46] <vuntz> not sure it exists everywhere
[10:46] <Kamion> Kyral: we had the licence argument last time, let's not have it again
[10:46] <Kyral> oh sorry
[10:46] <Kyral> lol
[10:46] <mdke> yes
[10:46] <vuntz> but you can say "do what you want with it"
[10:46] <vuntz> it's similar to public domain
[10:46] <mdke> hmm
[10:46] <vuntz> :-)
[10:47] <Kamion> vuntz's comment is a problem - I think it's true in Germany as well
[10:47] <smurf> mdke: you can grant all right to everybody, but there are some rights which you can't disclaim or give away -- but you *can* not exercise them. Same in Germany.
[10:47] <vuntz> sorry guys, need to go
[10:47] <vuntz> good night
[10:47] <earobinson> bye vuntz 
[10:47] <raphink> 'night vuntz 
[10:47] <mdke> smurf, i find that quite hard to follow. Does the text of CC-PD go against that?
[10:48] <GnuKemist> wouldn't that be waived off then if the author writes such a statement? that he/she doesn't want to exercise any rights over the material?
[10:48] <Kamion> personally I sorta wish we'd suggested BSD last time, since that's not that far from "PD but without the awkward disclaimer of copyright stuff"
[10:48] <elmo> Kamion: we can still do that
[10:48] <smurf> mdke: I haven't actually checked
[10:48] <smurf> Kamion: right
[10:48] <mdke> Kamion, but I believe BSD requires relicensing as BSD, no?
[10:48] <elmo> but to be honest, "public domain" is easier, and better understood straing moral rights of authorship in a small number of countries not withstanding
[10:48] <Kamion> GnuKemist: none of us here are intellectual property lawyers (er, if somebody is, please speak up); inventing licences or guessing at their meaning in different countries is a bad idea if you aren't one
[10:49] <GnuKemist> Kamion gotcha...
[10:49] <Kamion> mdke: just like PD, yes
[10:49] <\sh> elmo: to be more precise...in germany "public domain" means more "give it away without any money, but copyright is mine"
[10:49] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, unfortunately I suspect the small number of countries are significant in terms of authorship
[10:49] <elmo> I think we should go with "PD + (And if you can't do that, please use this MIT/BSD/'tever [simplest]  license instead)
[10:49] <Kamion> so we probably ought to know what's going on
[10:49] <mdke> Kamion, is that true?
[10:49] <Kamion> mdke: is what true?
[10:49] <elmo> mdke: of course it's true?
[10:50] <mdke> Kamion, there is nothing to suggest that a user can't relicense a derivative surely?
[10:50] <elmo> oh, we've got cross wires
[10:50] <mako> the PD licenses from CC are really difficult to internationalize
[10:50] <elmo> mdke: you're talking about relicensing something under PD?
[10:50] <mdke> elmo, yes
[10:50] <LaserJock> how do these licenses effect doc team docs that want to use wiki material?
[10:50] <Kamion> sorry, I should say MIT really not BSD, thanks elmo
[10:50] <elmo> I think kamion and I are talking about the existing material
[10:50] <mdke> oh sorry
[10:50] <dihack> btw anyone can speak bahasa? 
[10:51] <Kamion> LaserJock: the point of using a weak licence is to make it easy for docteam to reuse material
[10:51] <mdke> Kamion, but the docteam relicenses their work
[10:51] <Kamion> that's one of the reasons GPL/GFDL/whatever would be awkward - they impose extra constraints on the docteam
[10:51] <mdke> BSD/MIT don't allow that, afaics
[10:51] <Kamion> mdke: relicenses from what to what?
[10:51] <LaserJock> that's my concern
[10:52] <mdke> Kamion, the docteam takes wiki material, and puts it in docs licensed under GFSL/CCbySA
[10:52] <LaserJock> I would like to take wiki material and include it in a GPL doc
[10:52] <mdke> the BSD and MIT say, all copies and derivatives need to include the same license
[10:52] <smurf> The CC-PD dedication lacks something that would be a salvatory clause (as it's a license and not a contract, wording that one is a bit tricky), if it had one I'd be reasonably comfortable with it
[10:52] <elmo> mdke: why do the docteam need/want to do that?
[10:52] <Kamion> mdke: other than PD, pretty much no licences allow arbitrary relicensing, but you can *incorporate* BSD-licensed material as long as you include the copyright notice
[10:52] <Kamion> which hardly seems onerous to me
[10:53] <smurf> Kamion: +1
[10:53] <mdke> Kamion, right
[10:53] <Kamion> what's the problem with "this document contains material released under the MIT licence, reproduced here: <splat>"
[10:53] <Kamion> ?
[10:53] <mdke> elmo, more historical than anything else, afaics
[10:53] <Kamion> so long as the licences are compatible
[10:53] <elmo> I like PD because it matches how I think we can justify nationalizing the current wiki content, that's the only reason I'm interested in keeping it as the default.  relicensing under a more restrictive license by the community isn't something I'd invisaged/intended
[10:53] <mdke> Kamion, i see no problem, but having so many licenses flying around might be a little awkward
[10:54] <mako> mdke: i tend to think that you are more qualified to make this deiciosn than any of us
[10:54] <elmo> mdke: it should only be 2/3 max?
[10:54] <mako> mdke: from both legal positions and from wiki positions :)
[10:54] <elmo> mdke: CC-BY-SA for the bulk, some GFDL (?) and now some MIT
[10:54] <Kamion> one problem with MIT/BSD would be that doing it right would require a copyright notice for every contributor
[10:54] <elmo> any non-trivial software project is usually under at least that many licenses ;-)
[10:54] <mdke> elmo, i dunno, we just inherited those licenses, they can be rediscussed another time
[10:54] <mdke> but I like PD too
[10:54] <Kamion> so yeah, as elmo says PD would be a lot simpler
[10:55] <mdke> i'm slightly concerned by what smurf has said about german/french law
[10:55] <Kamion> mako: do you have any pet lawyers we could check this with? :)
[10:55] <elmo> Kamion: honestly, I think we should try to do that as best we can anyway
[10:55] <elmo> Kamion: and it could also be automated
[10:55] <mako> Kamion: i have a few :)
[10:55] <elmo> in much the same way as we're automating the mail
[10:55] <elmo> since wiki accounts are forever...
[10:55] <Kyral> they are?
[10:56] <mdke> Kyral, like diamonds
[10:56] <Kyral> lol
[10:56] <elmo> this draft needs a lot more work tho
[10:56] <mdke> what are we gonna do about this?
[10:56] <mako> mdke: better than diamonds
[10:56] <elmo> I don't suppose anyone could volunteer to do that?  I certainly don't have time this week
[10:56] <bustacap> ship it off to legals :)
[10:56] <Kamion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain has a good discussion FWIW
[10:57] <mdke> elmo, i'll do it if you give me some indication of what you want
[10:57] <elmo> my proposal is change it to "PD + MIT iff you can't"
[10:57] <smurf> mdke: I'd be far happier with a text that grants anybody who wants to use the text all nonexclusive rights, that's at least an idea that's compatible with German copyright law ;-)
[10:57] <Kamion> and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Donate_to_the_public_domain has a suggestion for countries where PD doesn't work
[10:58] <mdke> how about smurf's proposal
[10:58] <mdke> i like that
[10:58] <bustacap> an Ubuntu Document License ;D
[10:58] <Kamion> "The copyright holder of this [work]  allows anyone to use it for any purpose, including unrestricted redistribution, commercial use, and modification."
[10:58] <smurf> Kamion: that would work
[10:58] <Kyral> lol
[10:58] <Kamion> oh, sorry, not that bit
[10:58] <Kamion> "I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.
[10:58] <Kamion> In case this is not legally possible:
[10:58] <Kamion> I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
[10:58] <Kamion> "
[10:59] <Kamion> dunno if that's been legally vetted though
[10:59] <elmo> that works for me
[10:59] <earobinson> Kamion, thats looks like a good idea
[10:59] <bustacap> hehe call it the UDL
[10:59] <mako> ok.. i can run it by a lawyer
[10:59] <mdke> Kamion, worksforme too
[10:59] <mako> if you want
[10:59] <earobinson> Do the pest we can and if not just set it free
[10:59] <elmo> mako: US or !?
[10:59] <mako> US
[10:59] <Kamion> mdke: I can do some other work on the draft tomorrow if you like
[10:59] <mako> but who knows that the world beyond exists
[10:59] <elmo> err ! ?, as in not, not omglol explanationism
[10:59] <mdke> Kamion, that would be great
[10:59] <Kamion> trying to change the emphasis a bit
[11:00] <mako> alright
[11:00] <mako> we don't need to hash this out here
[11:00] <\sh> Kamion: it only says, that the copyright is hold by the original author, but everyone is free to use it without any legal restrictions...that's very compatible with the european union...until someone has more clue about european copyright laws
[11:00] <mako> we're 1h into this.. i'm a little worried about time :)
[11:00] <mako> can we move on?
[11:00] <mdke> yep, i'm happy
[11:00] <\sh> s/hold/held/
[11:00] <Kyral> and I'm hungry... :P
[11:00] <mako> mdke: nice
[11:00] <earobinson> me 2 Kyral 
[11:00] <mdke> thanks for finding that Kamion 
[11:01] <mako> alright
[11:01] <smurf> mako: +1
[11:01] <mako> og's comment we can skip
[11:01] <mako> since it doesn't need to be seen by this group
[11:01] <mako> any other non-member, non-loco business?
[11:01] <mako> alright
[11:01] <GnuKemist> mako any way I can speed this up?
[11:01] <mako> guerby: we're doing this as fast as we can
[11:01] <mako> GnuKemist: ^^
[11:01] <mdke> GnuKemist, mail the address I noted
[11:02] <mako> oh, you mean the shipment
[11:02] <GnuKemist> mdke k...  thanks
[11:02] <GnuKemist> mako yes
[11:02] <mako> info@shipit.ubuntu.com
[11:02] <guerby> mako, hi :)
[11:02] <mako> alright
[11:02] <mako> guerby: tab completions :)
[11:02] <guerby> yeah :)
[11:03] <mako> alright
[11:03] <mako> any loco teams not on the agenda that are here
[11:03] <mako> new ones
[11:03] <mako> ?
[11:03] <mako> no
[11:03] <mako> alright members
[11:03] <GnuKemist> unfortunately I can't stay any longer... but left testimonial for licio ...  take care everyone
[11:03] <Riddell> jpatrick would like to go first for membership, he has to get away
[11:03] <GnuKemist> licio break a leg buddy
[11:04] <mako> everyone should have or should now prepare 1-3 sentences on their work on ubuntu and where they want to tkae the project
[11:04] <Ubuntuser_Ba> yeah!
[11:04] <mako> Riddell: ok
[11:04] <anandaputra> i'm ready..
[11:04] <manicka> ok
[11:04] <earobinson> ready
[11:04] <lmanul> Same
[11:04] <bustacap> right to go..
[11:04] <earobinson> (assuming I can cut and paste from my wiki page)
[11:04] <ogra> lmanul, oh, you dropped some l's :)
[11:05] <lmanul> ogra, yeah, easier to tab-complete ^^
[11:05] <dihack> wait i'm new here, here for helping ananda
[11:05] <manicka> <-- Grant Galbraith
[11:05] <earobinson> well jpatrick should go first if he has to go soon ....
[11:06] <raphink> go jpatrick go :)
[11:07] <Kyral> go go go :P
[11:07] <earobinson> MIA?
[11:07] <raphink> earobinson: ?
[11:07] <earobinson> yes?
[11:08] <raphink> MIA?
[11:08] <ogra> missing in action
[11:08] <mako> sorry.. lost my connection there for a second
[11:08] <earobinson> missing in action
[11:08] <raphink> ogra: oh ok :)
[11:08] <earobinson> want a cut and paste pm mako 
[11:08] <bustacap> mako, yay, we need some adjudication.. :)
[11:08] <mdke> earobinson, he didn't leave the channel
[11:08] <mdke> let's go dudes
[11:09] <raphink> yep
[11:09] <earobinson> if jpatrick is not going do you want me to?
[11:09] <ogra> so it seems jpatrick isnt around then ...
[11:09] <mako> jpatrick: ?
[11:09] <mako> alright
[11:09] <bustacap> I need to head off to work soon..
[11:09] <raphink> jpatrick: ...
[11:09] <mako> well lets move on
[11:09] <earobinson> ok well im really going to cut and paste from my wiki page
[11:09] <Kamion> earobinson: ok, go
[11:09] <earobinson> Activity
[11:09] <earobinson>    1.
[11:09] <earobinson>       Spreading the Ubuntu spirit. I do this by showing many people the distribution and open source programs in general. Also I give out the CDs!
[11:09] <earobinson>    2.
[11:09] <earobinson>       I am very active on the Ubuntu forums ([WWW]  Team Leader) and provide support and focused mostly on providing support.
[11:10] <earobinson>    3.
[11:10] <earobinson>       I have been running dapper to aid with the testing.
[11:10] <earobinson> My name is Edward Robinson currently living in Ontario, Canada. Im a computer science major at the University of Toronto and I have been using Linux since 2003 and Ubuntu since May 2005.
[11:10] <earobinson> I would like to see Ubuntu grow, and more users being able to use Ubuntu problem free. To do this I feel that One of the most important things is to support new users, and the Ubuntu forums have played a very important role in this. I would like to continue to become a part of this growing community, and to grow with it. 
[11:10] <Kamion> anyone like to speak up for earobinson's support skills?
[11:10] <Kamion> s/skills/contributions/ perhaps
[11:10] <Kyral> He has been active on the Forums..
[11:10] <earobinson> In time I would like to get more and more involved as school and work let me, I have worked with a lot of people on the forums like Kingbahamut|Werk  and Kyral 
[11:11] <mdke> i've read a number of posts by earobinson on the forum (community related, rather than support) and he seems very sensible
[11:11] <earobinson> *blush*
[11:11] <Kyral> but I haven't been on the Forums in a while
[11:11] <manicka> earobinson is very active on the forums and gives good advice
[11:11] <mako> earobinson: have you been contributing since last may?
[11:12] <earobinson> I have been around for a long time
[11:12] <manicka> as a staff member he keeps me busy with mod reports about various issues
[11:12] <earobinson> but I really started about 6 months ago
[11:12] <Kamion> what kind of issues?
[11:12] <earobinson> really started to pick it up
[11:12] <earobinson> Kamion, everything from geting posts moved to the correct forum to reporting abuse and spam
[11:12] <manicka> posts in incorrect forums etc
[11:13] <earobinson> Just try to help things run good as they can
[11:13] <manicka> and abuse and spam
[11:13] <earobinson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdwardARobinson <- for anyone that wants it
[11:15] <mako> are there current members here who can vouch for earobinson 
[11:15] <mako> ?
[11:15] <Kyral> I can
[11:15] <earobinson> a couple did no?
[11:15] <mdke> I did
[11:15] <mako> mdke: right
[11:16] <mako> well, 1200+ posts over 6 months counts as both significant and sustained in my book
[11:16] <earobinson> is Kingbahamut|Werk here? Im sure he would vote for me
[11:16] <Kingbahamut|Werk> yes I am 
[11:16] <earobinson> thanks mako
[11:16] <Kingbahamut|Werk> and yes I would earobinson
[11:16] <mako> Kamion, elmo: ?
[11:16] <Kyral> earobinson++
[11:17] <earobinson> thanks Kingbahamut|Werk 
[11:17] <Kamion> fine by me
[11:17] <elmo> yeah, me too
[11:17] <mako> alright thne
[11:17] <mako> PROGRESS
[11:17] <earobinson> and Kyral and mdke
[11:17] <bddebian> heh
[11:17] <mako> earobinson: welcome
[11:17] <mdke> welcome earobinson 
[11:17] <Kamion> sorry, I usually get lost in browsing forum posts when this sort of thing comes up :)
[11:17] <ogra> welcome earobinson 
[11:17] <mako> was there someone else who was about to leave?
[11:17] <mako> who is on the roster?
[11:17] <bustacap> yeah..
[11:17] <Kyral> drinks are on you earobinson ;P
[11:17] <Ubuntuser_Ba> Congratulations earobinson!
[11:17] <earobinson> thanks all
[11:18] <mako> otherwise, we can maintain some semblance of order
[11:18] <mdke> bustacap is up next
[11:18] <raphink> congrats
[11:18] <anandaputra> congrats earobinson!
[11:18] <mdke> both in terms of leaving soon, and being next on the list
[11:18] <Ubuntuser_Ba> welcome to Ubuntu Team!
[11:18] <licio> Congratulations earobinson :-)
[11:18] <mako> who is bustacap?
[11:18] <earobinson> :)
[11:19] <mako> very recently added i see :)
[11:19] <elmo> oh, _that's_ what humbug stands for
[11:19] <mako> i've heard of humbug :)
[11:20] <bustacap> Sweet..
[11:20] <earobinson> mako anything i need to know / do now?
[11:20] <Kamion> the corporate/sunray documents are pretty impressive
[11:20] <mdke> the docs on the wiki are good
[11:20] <mdke> whiprush has blogged about em with high praise
[11:20] <elmo> bustacap: (nitpick: vigr is preferred to vi-ing e/tc/group directly)
[11:20] <bustacap> That's my main tangent at the moment, is joining the wiki team
[11:20] <mako> bustacap: how long have you been involved in writing these docs?
[11:21] <mako> bustacap: the first bug i see from you is 3 weeks ago
[11:21] <bustacap> and continuing writing more large doco
[11:21] <mako> bustacap: are you active in any team yet?
[11:21] <bustacap> yeah, my time for bugs is dictated by work..
[11:21] <bustacap> I have pending applications for Ubuntu and the Wiki team
[11:21] <mako> that's fine.. i'm just trying to get a sense for how long you've been involved so far
[11:21] <Kamion> vigr> or just 'adduser cupsys shadow', in this case
[11:22] <bustacap> I wish to get involved in the doc team after settling into the wiki team
[11:22] <mdke> bustacap, we don't do "applications" on the wiki team, just join the mailing list, and #ubuntu-doc and get communicating. It will be nice to see you
[11:22] <bustacap> and perhaps the direction of it as well..
[11:22] <mako> yes.. the sunray page is very impressive
[11:22] <mdke> wiki team = doc team
[11:22] <mako> right
[11:22] <bustacap> ok :)
[11:22] <mako> both pages are great actually
[11:23] <bustacap> the sunray page is part of getting Ubuntu a higher share of the business desktop market
[11:23] <bustacap> I would like to be involved in a team/discussions relating to the business use of Ubuntu
[11:24] <mako> right
[11:24] <Kamion> TBH I'm happy, the sort of sysadmin commitment involved here implies sustained involvement, I think
[11:24] <bustacap> part of fixing bug #1 :)
[11:24] <mako> ok.. these pages are like 2 months old
[11:24] <mako> and show a pretty consitent involvement over that period
[11:25] <bustacap> yes and I wish to maintain the level as well..
[11:25] <ogra> bustacap, do you run the thin clients with ubuntu ltsp ? 
[11:25] <mako> i'd like to see you *surpass* that level :)
[11:25] <bustacap> yes..
[11:25] <ogra> wow, cool
[11:25] <bustacap> so would I mako :)
[11:26] <mako> alright, i'd love to see you actually get involved in the some of the teams first..
[11:26] <mako> your work is *great* but it's almost all stuff you've worked on independently
[11:27] <mako> Kamion: what do you think?
[11:27] <bustacap> yes, that's why I wanted to gain membership status, to join teams, have a say, etc..
[11:27] <mako> bustacap: you don't need to gain membership status to join teams :)
[11:27] <mako> in fact, it's quite the opposite
[11:27] <ogra> you can join teams without being a member (at least in MOTU)
[11:28] <ogra> (or edubuntu)
[11:28] <mako> memberships status i usually only given to people who are already active in teams! :)
[11:28] <mako> bustacap: since nobody else is speaking up..
[11:29] <Kamion> mako: if you hadn't said anything I'd've been happy to say yes, I Think
[11:29] <Kamion> s/T/t
[11:29] <mako> alright
[11:29] <mako> i don't know what that means :)
[11:29] <Kamion> since there's significant/sustained contribution there and I like the sound of sysadmins in big corporates getting involved and documenting publicly what they're doing
[11:29] <mako> alright then
[11:30] <elmo> I'm happy to agree with either of you, so don't look at me to tie break :-P
[11:30] <Kyral> hehe
[11:30] <bustacap> Kamion, I think it is a good direction for sysadmins working on Ubuntu..
[11:30] <mdke> lol @elmo
[11:30] <mako> bustacap: thanks for your contributions so far.. i'm looking forward to more :)
[11:31] <Kamion> bustacap: sysadmin is so often reinvent-the-wheel-city, I can only see good coming from documenting more of it
[11:31] <bustacap> mako, you shall see more, thank you..
[11:31] <mako> bustacap: i think that means welcome :)
[11:31] <ogra> welcome bustacap 
[11:31] <bustacap> thanks dude
[11:31] <Kamion> yup, works for me, thanks for your work so far
[11:31] <mako> licio: is next 
[11:31] <Ubuntuser_Ba> another to family... Welcome bustacap!
[11:31] <mako> licio: cute hackergotchi
[11:32] <mdke> -> bed, thanks all
[11:32] <Kyral> Hip Hip HOORAY! :P
[11:32] <licio> mako, :-)
[11:32] <\sh> Kamion: is your statement "sysadmin is so often reinvent-the-wheel-city" BSD licensed? :)
[11:32] <Ubuntuser_Ba> is very Ugly... :)
[11:32] <bustacap> thanks guys..
[11:32] <Kamion> \sh: please take it outside the meeting
[11:32] <\sh> (so I could use it on a geek shirt) :)
[11:32] <earobinson> welcome bustacap 
[11:32] <mako> licio: introduce yourself
[11:33] <licio> i'm a 20-years-old Computer Science student from Belo Horizonte, Brazil. I consider myself a supporter of the open source community/movement, a feeling that was extremelly augmented when I first started using GNU/Linux in 2001. My first distro was Conectiva Linux (now known as Mandriva), later replaced by Debian which I used until october of 2004. I was very satisfied with Debian but somehow I felt that there was something else missing. That's w
[11:33] <licio> hen I first tried Ubuntu 4.10, a true love at first sight!
[11:33] <mako> man.. today it's all slackers.. just pasting from their wiki pages
[11:33] <Kamion> janimo: around? anything to say about licio re xubuntu?
[11:33] <licio> 'Lately I've been working with the effort to translate Ubuntu and packages to pt_BR, "hunting" for bugs, supporting users at #ubuntu-br, and helping with the maintenance of the Brazilian wiki pages by translating documentation and creating tutorials (most seen at http://planeta.ubuntubrasil.org).
[11:33] <mako> licio's karma has something to say about licio
[11:33] <Kamion> usual translator infinite karma of DEATH :)
[11:33] <mako> something like, "LOTS OF TRANSLATIONS"
[11:34] <mako> licio: you're work is well represented in LP
[11:34] <licio> :-)
[11:34] <segfault> he's a translator warrior
[11:34] <Ubuntuser_Ba> Yes.. is one member expressive!
[11:34] <segfault> he even surpassed my karma recently
[11:34] <licio> thanks
[11:34] <segfault> :(
[11:34] <Kamion> quality still good?
[11:35] <mako> licio: how long have you been involved?
[11:35] <segfault> sure
[11:35] <mako> a number of bugs too
[11:35] <Ubuntuser_Ba> licio is one member active in the Planeta Ubuntu Brasil!!
[11:36] <Ubuntuser_Ba> in the IRC channel
[11:36] <segfault> he was translating upstream, but some members were having some problems with commiting their changes
[11:36] <Ubuntuser_Ba> and Forum too
[11:36] <segfault> so he chose rosetta
[11:36] <mako> alright
[11:37] <mako> i'm happy with membership for the combination of contributions
[11:37] <licio> mako, 6 months
[11:37] <mako> and the testimionaials
[11:37] <mako> licio: sounds good :)
[11:37] <Ubuntuser_Ba> The Brazil.. puting the Ubuntu in the Top!!
[11:37] <licio> mako, :-D
[11:37] <Tonio_> :)
[11:38] <Kamion> licio++ from me to
[11:38] <Kamion> too
[11:39] <elmo> ack
[11:39] <mako> alright then
[11:39] <mako> licio: welcome!
[11:39] <Ubuntuser_Ba> Congratulations my friend licio!!!
[11:39] <Ubuntuser_Ba> Thanks ogra!
[11:39] <segfault> licio: congrats!
[11:39] <mako> manicka: you're up?
[11:39] <licio> mako, and all thanks
[11:39] <manicka> ok
[11:40] <manicka> My main claim for membership stems from the sustained and ongoing support that I have provided to users on Ubuntuforums since May 2005. My focus is on technical support for new users and general desktop support. My contributions in this area (1500+ posts) have recently been recognised by being accepted as a member of the moderating staff on the Forums. I am also a regular visitor to several ubuntu related IRC channels.
[11:40] <Ubuntuser_Ba> Yes.. welcome to family!!
[11:40] <manicka> One of my largest contributions at the Forums, apart from user support, has been as a founding member of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility http://doc.gwos.org, the knowledgebase and repository of Forum data. The UDSF has already been discussed in some detail today so I won't explain its purpose any further here.
[11:40] <manicka> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrantGalbraith  <-->  https://launchpad.net/people/manicka
[11:40] <raphink> Kyral: rooh
[11:41] <Kyral> manicka told me he was interested in helping with Edubuntu...
[11:41] <ogra> manicka, oooh, please drop by in #edubuntu if this is true :)
[11:42] <manicka> Yes, I'm a teacher and wnat to be more involved in edubuntu
[11:42] <manicka> will do
[11:42] <ogra> great :)
[11:42] <mako> manicka: wow, that's great :)
[11:42] <FLeiXiuS> manicka: edubuntu + freenx :-)
[11:42] <FLeiXiuS> Makes for one hell of a solution for thin clients.
[11:42] <Kyral> oyah
[11:42] <manicka> it's part of my plans for the future
[11:42] <Kyral> FreeNX++ ;P
[11:43] <mako> kassetra: thanks for your testimonial
[11:43] <earobinson> I would like to show support for manicka (not sure if it counts till next meeting)
[11:43] <Kyral> kass is here?
[11:44] <Kyral> I vouch for him
[11:44] <Bonzodog> manicka is real core part of the UDSF...his contribution has proven invaluable
[11:44] <Ubuntuser_Ba> bye friends.. I have to go now.. 
[11:44] <kassetra> mako: manicka really goes above and beyond the call of duty as a staff member on the forums.
[11:44] <earobinson> guess so Kyral 
[11:45] <FLeiXiuS> manicka is a beast, so I hear.
[11:45] <manicka> lol
[11:45] <FLeiXiuS> ;-)
[11:45] <FLeiXiuS> kassetra: My fuze came in today, she'll be pleased to see it.
[11:46] <mako> manicka: how long have you been involved?
[11:46] <Kamion> sorry, was browsing forum links again ... manicka seems to have contributed plenty forums-wise, and having more moderators as members is always great
[11:46] <manicka> since may 2005
[11:46] <mako> well
[11:46] <Kyral> Thats almost as long as I...
[11:46] <mako> to Kamion  too
[11:47] <earobinson> Kamion, Ya I think its a very good thing
[11:47] <elmo> I'm fine for membership
[11:48] <mako> win 18
[11:48] <Kamion> ok, sounds good to me, welcome manicka
[11:48] <Kyral> mischan?
[11:48] <mako> manicka: welcome
[11:48] <Kyral> Congrats manicka!
[11:48] <manicka> thankyou
[11:48] <earobinson> grats manicka 
[11:48] <mako> Tonio_: around?
[11:48] <licio> mako, welcome :-)
[11:48] <Bonzodog> congrats manicka
[11:48] <Tonio_> yep
[11:48] <mako> go go go
[11:48] <Tonio_> My name's Anthony Mercatante, living in Paris, France.
[11:48] <Tonio_> My Wiki page : https://wiki.kubuntu.org/AnthonyMercatante
[11:48] <Tonio_> Launchpad : https://launchpad.net/people/anthony-mercatante
[11:48] <Tonio_> I mostly contributed by providing packages, but also depending on the context and the help needed on the moment, which includes testing, icons designing or submitting ideas for default configuration etc...
[11:48] <Tonio_> My motivations are simple. I like Ubuntu, and I really think it has the potential of the best desktop linux distro out there (if not already). So I appreciate to give "my two cents" of contribution.
[11:49] <ogra> congrats manicka 
[11:49] <manicka> thanks everyone :)
[11:49] <raphink> Tonio is a major contributor in Kubuntu development. I care particularly about his membership since he was the one bringing me to package ubuntu apps, which is now my main activity with reviewing ;)
[11:49] <elmo> I don't even have to look at Tonio's wikipage, I recognise his name from the flood of KDE new packages
[11:49] <raphink> he maintains about 20 packages in Ubuntu
[11:49] <Kyral> He's very active in MOTU (to say the least)
[11:49] <raphink> :)
[11:49] <raphink> yeah
[11:49] <Tonio_> elmo: ^^ thanks ;)
[11:49] <mako> elmo: however, you should
[11:49] <mako> because it's also a very good page
[11:50] <elmo> heh
[11:50] <raphink> to the opinion of many, Tonio should already be a MOTU, had he taken the opportunity to apply
[11:50] <mako> Tonio_: if i wasn't convinced BEFORE seeing your page, i would be convinced now
[11:50] <mako> Tonio_: how long have you been involved?
[11:50] <mako> (i've asked everyone else)
[11:50] <Tonio_> mako: nice to ear :)
[11:50] <minghua> yeah, impressive package list, nice job Tonio_
[11:50] <Tonio_> mako: I'm involved since march/april 2005
[11:50] <ogra> Tonio_, so did you dive with sharks already ? 
[11:50] <mako> Tonio_: nice :)
[11:51] <mako> ramping up i see
[11:51] <Tonio_> the day I decided to use linux as replacement for my win XP, and installed ubuntu
[11:51] <Riddell> Tonio_'s done lots of stuff for kubuntu, he's long past due membership
[11:51] <Tonio_> I felt in love with it's community, really
[11:51] <ogra> Riddell++
[11:51] <Kyral> Do we even need to vote? ;P
[11:51] <raphink> hehe
[11:51] <Kamion> Tonio_++ as far as I'm concerned anyway
[11:51] <raphink> ;)
[11:51] <mako> Tonio_: thank you for making a great wiki page, for doing great work
[11:51] <mako> i'm happy with membership
[11:51] <Kamion> good work
[11:51] <raphink> no vote required, this is just recognition de facto
[11:51] <Tonio_> thanks everyone, that's a pleasure to ear !
[11:52] <mako> Tonio_: we may use your wiki page to show to other applicants and example :)
[11:52] <Kyral> I think if someone didn't vote right now, they'd be collectively smacked :P
[11:52] <anandaputra> hi all.. when is my turn? it was 5 am here in Indonesia and i'm very sleepy.. :D
[11:52] <mako> anandaputra: you're next :)
[11:52] <mako> anandaputra: go :)
[11:52] <Tonio_> mako: you should look at raphink's one.... 
[11:52] <Tonio_> by far better than my one
[11:52] <mako> Tonio_: i have 
[11:52] <mako> the quality of wiki pages have imporved a lot in the last 2 months
[11:52] <anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia). I'm using Redhat 6.0 for my first time Linux distro, and than I had used Slackware for my works for the long time until I insta
[11:52] <anandaputra> I'm 26 years old man
[11:52] <raphink> welcome to the team (officially) Tonio_ ;)
[11:53] <Tonio_> thanks everyone !
[11:53] <anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia). I'm using Redhat 6.0 for my first time Linux distro, and than I had used Slackware for my works for the long time until I insta
[11:53] <mako> deja vu
[11:53] <anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia). I'm using Redhat 6.0 for my first time Linux distro, and than I had used Slackware for my works for the long time until I insta
[11:53] <smurf> anandaputra: 200-character limit per line
[11:53] <raphink> hmmpf
[11:54] <smurf> anandaputra: cut off after "for the long time"
[11:54] <mako> is there anyone here who can speak up for anandaputra?
[11:54] <anandaputra> ups.. sorry..
[11:54] <mako> i see a small number of (2 month old) translations in rosetta and not a whole lot of other documentation
[11:54] <anandaputra> My name is Ananda Putra. Currently I'm living in Jakarta, Indonesia. I've been totally using Linux since 1999. I was Chairman of Bandung Linux Users & Enthusiasts Society (http://bandung.linux.or.id) in 2001 until 2003. We've made some activity to spread Linux and free software paradigm in our town (Bandung, Indonesia).
[11:55] <dihack> i do tell him :)
[11:57] <anandaputra> Yes.. I still have no direct contribution to Ubuntu yet..
[11:57] <Riddell> anandaputra: how active is #ubuntu-id and is there an indonesian loco team?
[11:57] <anandaputra> But I do some advocacy here
[11:57] <mako> anandaputra: ok.. i'd ask you to build up a profile and resume of some of those direct contributions
[11:57] <anandaputra> I encouraged people for using Ubuntu in Indonesia
[11:57] <mako> anandaputra: and then come back for membership :)
[11:57] <mako> anandaputra: right.. that work is *greatly* appreciated
[11:58] <mako> anandaputra: but we still need documentation of that
[11:58] <mako> anandaputra: and i don't see a lot of that
[11:58] <mako> anandaputra: that doesn't mean you haven't done it or that we don't appreciate it.. it's just not clear from looking at your patge
[11:58] <anandaputra> http://www.davidsudjiman.info/?p=79
[11:58] <lmanul> (If I could be next, I'd be really grateful, getting late over here :)  )
[11:58] <dihack> maybe you interst to read that article
[11:58] <dihack> it about ubuntu shipping
[11:59] <mako> lmanul: it's long for all of us.. we're going as fast as we can
[11:59] <dihack> :(
[11:59] <lmanul> mako, np
[11:59] <ogra_> mako, lmanul was on top of the list initially :)
[11:59] <mako> lmanul: you're next then
[11:59] <lmanul> :)
[11:59] <lmanul> All right
[11:59] <mako> dihack: now is not the time to be bringing new things up
[11:59] <mako> we apprecaite you work
[11:59] <earobinson> I only went cuz no one else was going sorry
[12:00] <lmanul> My name is Manu Cornet, I'm a 24 year-old French guy living in Paris, France. I'm currently a PhD student in bioinformatics, as well as a musician, graphics designer and author of a few books. I'm a member of the Desktop Team, GNOME team and Art Team, active on IRC channels (#ubuntu-desktop, #ubuntu-fr, #ubuntu) and mailing lists (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-devel).
[12:00] <mako> but as it's currently documented, i don't think it would be fair to others we have asked to come back
[12:00] <mako> lmanul: hold up dude :)
[12:00] <mako> lmanul: we're not done with anandaputra 
[12:00] <lmanul> Woops :-p
[12:00] <mako> jumped the gun
[12:00] <lmanul> Sorry, my "Enter" slipped :-p
[12:00] <mako> anandaputra: if you want, you can run the page by me or other people from the CC
[12:00] <anandaputra> As a matter of fact, I've not own any computer right now, so I always bring Ubuntu Install CD and Ubuntu Live CD..
[12:01] <mako> anandaputra: that's great
[12:01] <mako> anandaputra: but we need to document your direct contributions before we can grant you membership
[12:01] <mako> anandaputra: so lets work on that for another meeting :)
[12:01] <mako> anandaputra: hopefully one at a more convenient time for you :)
[12:01] <mako> anandaputra: ok?
[12:02] <anandaputra> ok than..