=== garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === minghua [n=minghua@danube.mems.rice.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === crimsun [n=crimsun@158.221.232.64.transedge.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jcape [i=jcape@71.194.176.102] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ogra__ [n=ogra@p5089CC36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tvelocity [n=tony@ipa25.7.tellas.gr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-motu === freeflying_ [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.12] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === hub [n=hub@toronto-hs-216-138-231-194.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:12] siretart: there was a problem while uploading kmhtconverter on revu, and upload fails for me actually.... [02:12] siretart: can you remove it from queue ? [02:13] Tonio_: done [02:13] gn8 [02:13] siretart: thanks :) === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:19] siretart: ajmitch made me an account on tiber [02:20] it's a really nice, but I don't have writing rights on /var/revu/revu1-incoming [02:20] yes, I told him about that :) [02:20] so that I can't run revu-build [02:20] umm [02:20] you should be in the pbuilder group === raphink forgot about the command to check the groups of a user [02:21] ok, looks like you need to be in another group [02:21] one moment [02:22] otherwise it's very nice. I was able to find out why some upload didn't go up, by looking at /home/ftp and other stuff [02:22] very useful [02:22] ok [02:22] it should work now, might need to logout & login [02:24] ok [02:24] I'll try === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:32] siretart, ajmitch [02:32] $ revu-build kmhtconvert_0.7.3-0ubuntu1.dsc [02:32] W: /home/raphink/.pbuilderrc does not exist [02:32] -> Logging to kmhtconvert_0.7.3-0ubuntu1.buildlog [02:32] ls: *.deb: No such file or directory [02:32] is that normal ? [02:33] :s [02:35] it's normal if the build breaks [02:35] which happens often enough, when the uploaded package just doesn't build in pbuilder [02:36] hmm [02:36] it builds in my pbuilder though [02:37] so maybe it's the revu pbuilder that isn't up-to-date [02:37] . [02:37] ? === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:39] raphink: then update it [02:39] how ? [02:39] do I have the right to run pbuilder update ? [02:40] mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/cache/pbuilder/build//6798': Permission denied [02:40] ;) [02:40] oh I hvae sudo rights for pbuilder [02:40] good to know [02:40] :) [02:41] use pbuilder-dapper update [02:41] hmm === thierry__ [n=thierry@modemcable038.90-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:42] I'm running sudo pbuilder update currently [02:42] is that fine ? [02:42] please don't [02:42] no [02:42] oh no it's a breezy one :( [02:42] argh [02:42] ok I'm updating the dapper one === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:45] ajmitch: is it possible to have revu-build a bit more verbose? [02:46] it's a script, so yes [02:46] hehe [02:47] I guess I just have to cp /usr/local/bin/revu-build to my ~ and modify it ;) [02:47] so its more verbose ;) [02:47] that's how you mean? [02:47] ;) [02:49] so is revu-build what is used to generate what you see when you click on the details for a package on revu? [02:50] its used to generate this LaserJock http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1606 [02:50] just ran it on this package to test :) [02:51] but it can also be used from ~/ to right? [02:51] how do you mean? === psusi [n=phreak@54.161.205.68.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:51] you mean if you want to use it on your comp? === xhaker [n=xhaker@213.201.220.218] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:52] anyway [02:52] time to go to bed [02:52] almost 3 AM [02:53] and I have to go out and see seveas tomorrow :) [02:53] 'night [02:53] <>< LaserJock :) === ubuntulog [i=ubuntulo@195.22.207.161] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Topic for #ubuntu-motu: Ubuntu Masters of the Universe: Ubuntu Universe Repository Maintainers | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTodo | How To Track Merge Status -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUToMerge | Grab your merge here: http://tiber.tauware.de/~sistpoty/MoM/index.py?state=new | sign up for ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com now! | Merges to review & upload: http://tinyurl.com/a3qjh === Topic (#ubuntu-motu): set by ajmitch at Wed Jan 18 23:05:17 2006 === Gazer [n=ngazer@adsl-teco-200-59-105-41.capfed2.uolsinectis.com.ar] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tepsipakki [n=tjaalton@130.233.200.84] has joined #ubuntu-motu === whiprush [n=jorge@64.62.190.212] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jaldhar [n=jaldhar@pcp04197965pcs.crosky01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-motu === freeflying_ [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.12] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:09] Riddell: ping? === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === psusi is getting worried now... running smart long self test on my hard drives and they sound like they are going to explode... heh [03:28] the head is massively thrashing and the pitch is getting higher and higher === rikai [n=gtk2@pool-70-105-244-62.port.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mxpxpod [n=bryan@unaffiliated/mxpxpod] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Toadstool is now known as ToadZzZztool === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === womble [n=mpalmer@202.53.187.9] has joined #ubuntu-motu === punkrockguy318 [n=lukas@pcp02403042pcs.brdgtn01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === freeflying [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.12] has joined #ubuntu-motu === poningru_ [n=poningru@n128-227-67-167.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === infinito [n=infinito@VPNPOOL01-0252.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has joined #ubuntu-motu === infinito [n=infinito@VPNPOOL01-0252.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Abandonando"] === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === marcin` [n=user@194.114.146.58] has joined #ubuntu-motu === _maydayjay_ [n=maydayja@ip101109.101.nas.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-34-186.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === minghua [n=minghua@69-153-139-23.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === dcode [n=dcode@dpc671431125.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === dcode is away: sleeping... [05:18] wow [05:19] kernel seriously broke [05:19] how badly? [05:19] the console is messy [05:19] X does not even start [05:20] trying the old kernel [05:20] thumbnailing in nautilus is also broken [05:20] files a bug [05:22] and it stall on "detecting and activating hardware" [05:22] for a long time === ajmitch_ [i=ajmitch@port169-250.ubs.maxnet.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:24] now I understand the "freeze" [05:25] hm, I missed the comments === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-219.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:27] ajmitch_: udev is fscked [05:27] completely [05:27] I reboot signle [05:30] hm [05:30] I might put off dist-upgrading tonight then [05:31] yeah [05:31] possibly [05:31] but the old kernel does not boot either [05:31] 'cause of udev [05:31] does that mean I should update kernel but hold udev? [05:31] minghua: hold eveything [05:31] well there's been no udev upload for two weeks [05:32] so you can't blame changes there [05:32] kernel got updated [05:32] hub: all right, fortunately I don't need any new stuff, thanks [05:32] I did a mass upgrade [05:32] last kernel upload I see was 5 days ago [05:32] and I still miss bits like dbus 0.60 [05:32] 2.6.15-13.18 ? [05:32] I don;t know why [05:32] ajmitch: that one [05:33] ajmitch: but maybe the machine is fscked [05:33] it is an old PIII [05:33] so it's nothing new that's been introduced in the last day or so [05:33] where does it stop booting for you? [05:34] Hmm, I am using 2.6.15-13.18 [05:34] so am I [05:34] so it looks the bug is specific to hub's machine [05:34] I had it stop once at detecting & activating hardware today [05:34] like it did last week [05:34] but a reboot fixed it [05:34] I did reboot thrice [05:35] now I'm in signle user [05:35] and try manual fiddling === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:37] maybe should I install Xandors ;-/ [05:39] heh [05:40] where do I find udev logs? [05:41] udevplug fail === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mr-russ [n=mr-russ@CPE-203-45-4-40.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:45] muahahaha, I got vmware-player to use linux in Windows. [05:47] now VMware is useful ;-) [05:48] lol [05:48] I got a LAMP setup [05:48] azuredream.homelinux.org [05:56] Kyral: nothing there :( === Plazma [n=nick@unaffiliated/plazma] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:57] LaserJock: eh? === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Plazma [n=nick@unaffiliated/plazma] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] [05:58] fsck [05:58] http://azuredream.homelinux.org/blog/ [06:00] Kyral: all I see is "The Career Fair Cometh" [06:01] yah [06:01] right now thats all it is lol [06:01] a blog lol [06:01] I just set it up today shessh === freeflying_ [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.12] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:03] Kyral: np, I think I have a blog somewhere but I don't remember where at the moment (blogger.com perhaps) [06:03] Kyral: I don't even have enough time to get the things done I would blog about let alone write the blog ;-) [06:06] LaserJock: same here. :-) my last blog entry is in June [06:08] plugdevd does not even have a debug mode of any soirt [06:08] udevplug I mean === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:19] hmm, I haven't seen elmo on -devel all day [06:20] isn't he at LCA? [06:20] oh, that could be [06:21] well, he's excused then ;-) [06:23] krap [06:23] my console is really messed up [06:23] it display garbage === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ptlo [n=senko@83-131-79-172.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === dcode [n=dcode@dpc671431125.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zakame [n=zak@210.213.77.224] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:44] okay bedtime [06:47] cya Kyral [06:55] hi all === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === lucas [n=lucas@ubuntu/member/lucas] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === freeflying_ [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.12] has joined #ubuntu-motu === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B331B.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:17] good morning [07:18] hi dholbach [07:18] you are up early :) [07:18] Yeah, just waking up :) [07:18] heya dholbach :) [07:18] hey zakame [07:19] gar... it's cold over here [07:20] hehe, you got into that cold wave from the east of europe ? === Treenaks [n=martijn@thuis.foodfight.org] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:20] -17C; felt temperature -24C [07:20] I'll wait a bit with taking the dog out. :) [07:20] dholbach: ouch === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:21] Once you're walking, it's ok - but long mobile conversation hurt. :-) [07:21] dholbach: -4 here [07:21] Nice [07:21] thanks to the north sea [07:24] dholbach: have you heard of some plans about getting ekiga (gnomemeeting 2) in dapper ? [07:24] that would ROCK [07:24] btw, wpd2sxw needs a recompile (it's uninstallable atm) [07:24] lucas: yes, i talked to the pkg-voip team [07:25] lucas: after they have it, i'll test it and talk to matt and colin - which reminds me, need to mail them [07:26] ok, that's great === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-219.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === freeflying_ [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.12] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === StevenK [n=stevenk@14.5.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu === viviersf [n=cain@196.44.1.98] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:03] What's the ipython situation? [08:04] Are we about to request UVF exception and sync or what? === lucas doesn't know === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:09] Ok just saw - requires ubuntu update) [08:10] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DCT === lucas wants to get things moving [08:11] I'd like to hear more opinions on the UVF requests [08:11] I don't want to be the only one deciding. [08:12] dholbach: the problem is that, in the end, you'll be the one deciding [08:12] No, we can have a look and say "wow that's lot of fixes" - or "no, that's just features" [08:13] my POV would be : [08:13] I don't want to be the only one with an opinion. [08:13] - if it's a lib, let's take things carefully [08:13] - if it's not a lib (no packages depending on it), and it was suffficiently tested to make sure it doesn't explode, let's sync it [08:14] Hm... [08:14] but I know it's not the opinion I'm supposed to have :-) [08:14] You can have every opinion you can think of :-) [08:14] libgettext-ruby looks good to me [08:15] shouldn't we track UVF exc req using bugs in malone, assigned to MOTU or motureviewers ? [08:15] I find it hard to follow the mails [08:15] It is, but I want people to read this. [08:15] I'm not sure, if many people track motureviewers. [08:15] I want this to be discussed [08:17] What about sisu? [08:17] Is there no Upstream changelog or anything? [08:17] yup, no upstream changelog [08:17] the changes are mainly to the build system [08:17] dholbach: I think the problem is, many people don't have the knowledge / don't care enough to give opinions [08:17] gar! [08:18] dholbach: take myself as example, I use none of the packages that request for UVF exception now [08:18] minghua: It's merely reading and thinking... :-) [08:18] I don't know if I should speack out my opinion [08:19] it's a gut feeling [08:19] dholbach: just reading the diffstat would be good enough? === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:19] the changelog mostly - the numbers in the diffstat can make sense too [08:20] If you see 90% changes in doc/ you can be pretty sure, that we have enough time to fix the 10% if they explode :-) [08:20] stuff like that [08:22] lucas: sisu looks unintrusive, I just can't see sense in all the changes :-) [08:23] me neither, but I'd prefer to stay in sync [08:23] since the packaging looks complex, it might be hard to fix later === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch_ just hasn't had time for ubuntu or debian work this week :) === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:32] I'm going to request uvf exception approval for lyx, iypton, libgettext-ruby and sisu [08:33] If I missed something you all have time to find out, as long as I'm under the shower. [08:36] can we discuss psi ? [08:36] it's the most popular jabber-only client [08:36] it would be a shame to release dapper with an old version [08:37] Can you send the relevant info to the mailing list? [08:38] ok [08:38] Thanks. === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:41] psi is badly maintained in debian :/ [08:41] i'm not sure what to do with what \sh changed to the package [08:42] Hmm, I wonder what is the difference between lesstif and openmotif [08:42] dholbach: btw, what's the process for UVF and packages requesting a merge ? [08:42] you first seek approval by Kamion and then upload the merged package ? [08:43] Not sure - the Schedule mentions that this week is the "finish rest of the merges" week === Mortas_ [n=kris@217.148.89.121] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:43] no I mean: psi has local changes in ubuntu. [08:44] let's say you ask for an UVF exception for psi [08:44] how do we proceed with uploading 0.10-2ubuntu1 ? [08:44] I don't understand the question. === lucas thinks about it [08:44] psi: [08:44] We ask to get new Upstream code in, we upload it if they say ok. [08:44] Version in Ubuntu: 0.9.3-2ubuntu1 [08:44] Version is Sid: 0.10-2 [08:45] oh ok [08:45] It's quite easy. :-) [08:45] ok, brb === ejofee [n=ejofee@195-245-89-185.dtcom.ro] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:55] why isn't mc (midnight commander) included in a standard (k)ubuntu install? or why not at least on the cd? [08:55] hi [08:55] because very few people use it, compared to something like nautilus or konqueror? [08:56] there are many packages that could be on the cd, but aren't due to lack of space === tvo [n=tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:56] ajmitch_: mc is not very large [08:56] neither are a number of others [08:56] many packages are not very large :) [08:56] but they add up [08:57] mc is not in main, either [08:57] Is vim/emacs in standard install? [08:57] vim, not emacs [08:57] emacs was thrown out after 4.10 [08:57] Mithrandir: didn't they want another desktop environment? [08:57] ajmitch_: haha. :-P [08:57] ajmitch_: oh, it is not in main? it's ok, then. it compensates. :P === ajmitch_ uses emacs :) [08:57] ajmitch_: you do know vim has more embedded languages than emacs? === jinty [n=jinty@135.Red-80-37-34.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:58] Mithrandir: no, since I rarely use vim [08:58] ajmitch_: perl, python, ruby, tcl at least. Or can be compiled with. === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:59] Mithrandir: is vim better than nano? [08:59] ejofee: is a SUV better than a bicycle? [08:59] the answer is pretty subjective, I am afraid [09:00] Mithrandir: if vim is so good, then why do fewer and fewer people use it? [09:01] ejofee: they do? === minghua wonders what emacs would be if vim is a SUV :-) [09:01] minghua: a JSF or AH-66, of course. :-) [09:01] uh, AH-64 [09:02] hm [09:02] minghua: emacs is a text editor [09:02] ejofee: that's one of its minor functions [09:03] ajmitch_: what is vim's equivalent for windows, btw? [09:03] ejofee: you have vim for windows too [09:03] or you could use vim-gtk or something [09:04] Mithrandir, ajmitch_: if emacs is better than vim, then why do many distros include only vim by default? [09:04] is it because vim is smaller? [09:04] better? now that's a good topic for a heated discussion [09:05] ejofee: I'm not going to have that discussion. Editor preference is mainly that -- a matter of preference. [09:05] I happen to prefer emacs, but I wouldn't say that vim is a worse editor. It's just not my favourite. [09:05] Mithrandir: ok, then, statistically speaking, which one has a larger user base? [09:05] I don't know [09:06] (and I don't really care, I use the one I prefer and I would expect others to do the same) [09:06] and a lot of people use both vim and emacs [09:07] I would also recommend people to learn both, at least on a superficial level so they won't be lost if their favourite isn't on the system. [09:07] Mithrandir: sometimes statistics can show how evolved (or adapted) a subject can be. [09:07] emacs!?! vim!?! all in one sentence!?! [09:07] I'm not sure what you mean with you mean by "evolved". [09:07] Mithrandir: doesn't vim tend to be found everywhere? [09:07] no [09:08] ejofee: no, vi maybe but not vim... [09:08] Mithrandir: adapted to most users' needs [09:08] elvis or nvi can be found on most systems, though. [09:08] ejofee: my needs are surely different that yours. [09:08] Mithrandir: some needs are statistically more obscure or less representative than others. [09:09] Mithrandir: statistically. not ethically. [09:09] Mithrandir: but yes. [09:09] sure, but if that's a critical piece of functionality for me, I don't care if 99% of the users don't need it. [09:09] Mithrandir: agreed. === Gervystar [n=gervysta@62.94.208.119] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:10] (like, I do moderate newsgroups once in a while and having a good integration between my news reader and editor is crucial. I don't expect other people to really care about that. === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:10] btw, is there any distro (that you know of) which includes emacs on a default install? what about on a minimal environment? [09:11] if you want something resembling a stripped-down emacs, use jed. [09:11] and no, but why is the default install so important? emacs is on the cd, it's in main and supported. [09:13] Mithrandir: when i boot an distro's official cd in the rescue mode and i see that i can't modify files because it uses vim (which i don't know how to use), i do care. i then miss mc, or maybe nano or emacs. [09:13] ejofee: use our live cd and install emacs, then. :-P [09:14] Mithrandir :) [09:14] hm, there's nothing wrong in being ambidextrous [09:15] debian's rescure CD (actually just the installer) should use nano instead of vi, don't know about ubuntu's though [09:15] minghua: why do you think it *should* use nano instead of vi? [09:16] the ubuntu installer cd has nano on it. [09:16] ejofee: because nano is way more newbie friendly. [09:16] a rescue/install cd needs an editor everybody can use to rescue their system. It doesn't matter if it's suboptimal for writing lots of code or books or such. [09:17] Mithrandir: right. [09:17] ejofee: sorry, I was not clear. I meant "should be using nano now" [09:17] or "I remember they are using nano now" [09:17] Mithrandir, minghua: then mc (which has its internal editor) would be the very best! plus it resembles nc. [09:18] ... or bios. [09:18] i think mc is best for a minimal, rescue cd. [09:18] I never ever liked norton commander. [09:18] netcat? [09:19] err norton commander, sorry === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:19] going to request uvf exceptions for lyx, ipython, libgettext-ruby, sisu, psi [09:19] the rest requires discussion [09:21] mc is THE BEST minimal tool when it comes to user friendliness. plus it provides a nice way to browse the file system (sh is not that friendly to the noob). [09:22] ejofee: we're going to switch to a live cd based installer for dapper anyway, so you shouldn't need to use a shell to browse the fs anyway. [09:22] ejofee: feed2imap is the best feed aggregator from my POV. Am I bitching about getting it on the CDs ? ;) [09:22] Mithrandir: what about the rescue cases? [09:23] ejofee: a live cd should be much better suited for that, don't you think? [09:23] ejofee: discuss tihs on a mailing list, justify it and suggest what should be removed from the CDs instead of it. [09:23] Mithrandir: ok, but some live cds fail back... into vim [09:24] ejofee: this discussion doesn't get nowhere without a concrete proposal [09:24] Mithrandir: let mc be the live cd's failsafe case. why not? [09:24] dholbach: right [09:25] ejofee: subscribe to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com and discuss it there [09:25] ejofee: I am of the opinion that mc's UI is horrible, so convincing me will be quite hard. :-) [09:25] Mithrandir: as people were doing back in the 90s, when they were "failsafing" to dos / nc [09:25] we are not the one able to take the decision anyway, so it's worthless discussing it there [09:25] I've never ever, ever met somebody who had a boot floppy which fell back to norton commander. [09:26] Mithrandir: well, you're right :)... but we are talking cds here [09:26] lucas: thanks. i will. [09:26] ejofee: Installed-Size: 5952 [09:26] I don't think that qualifies as "minimal" in any sense of the word. [09:26] Mithrandir: i think it has a minimal version [09:27] Mithrandir: for the post-cd era, it IS minimal *by all means*. [09:27] we aren't yet in the post-cd era [09:27] lucas: ok... for the cd era :D [09:27] no, it's not. You need to stuff this into a ramdisk and a 6MB hit to the installer's memory requirements is _huge_ [09:27] if it was 250k would could possible be having a meaningful conversation. [09:27] possibly, even [09:29] Mithrandir: then is there any console file browser (with no internal editor) which is slimmer? [09:29] Mithrandir: user friendly, that is [09:29] Mithrandir: rather, "noob-friendly" === ompaul [n=ompaul@212.2.181.77] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:30] one thought about live cd in rescue mode - can it be unmounted? i've never used ubuntu live cd's (never needed a rescue :), but i once tried using knoppix' cd and i remember the frustration i got when i tried to access something on another cd (the system had only one cd drive) [09:30] ejofee: that's not relevant. 6MB is too much. [09:31] ptlo: no, it can't. [09:31] Mithrandir: that was not an argument. i was really wondering whether there was some alternative. [09:32] ejofee: none I know of. [09:32] ejofee: I think we just have to live with the fact that the console is, more or less, dead. [09:32] Mithrandir: that's a pity, i believe it'd be more usable in that case (i'm not starting a rant here, i do trust that there are very good reasons for not being so) [09:32] Mithrandir: anyway, vim alone is 1300 kb... === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:33] hm, then again, what's the diff between {noob,user}-friendly? [09:33] ejofee: vim's on the live cd, but not in the installer. There's nano there. [09:33] zakame_away: vim is user-friendly [09:33] zakame_away: vim helps the user do lots of things [09:33] zakame_away: ... and very easily... as soon as the user is a user, not a noob. [09:33] zakame_away: newbie-friendly means it's easy to get started with. User-friendly means it's easy to do the stuff you want to do, but it might require learning effort to get there. [09:33] zakame_away: that is, as soon as the user *learns* how to use it [09:33] ptlo: I had a similar experience, but it was quite easy in my case [09:34] ejofee, Mithrandir : ah [09:35] well, in that case, iptables is ``user-friendly'' for me ;) [09:35] ptlo: yes, it's a hard problem to solve. What you'd need to do is to load all the data into memory and mount that tmpfs somewhere. > 2GB memory isn't too common just yet. [09:35] zakame_away: iptables isn't user-friendly for anybody. it has a way too techie design. [09:36] IMU, user-friendly approximates (or daresay equals) being intuitive, right? [09:36] ejofee, vim is far from userfriendly. nano is [09:36] intuitive interfaces aren't. [09:36] Burgundavia: nano is not user friendly. It gets in my way. vim and emacs generally doesn't. [09:36] Burgundavia: however, nano is newbie friendly. [09:36] Mithrandir, yes [09:38] ejofee: I was testing yours, and Mithrandir's definition. :) [09:38] Burgundavia: from what i've heard, nano is user-unfriendly, but noob-friendly [09:38] zakame_away: I think iptables is user-friendly, but it takes a fair amount of time to learn [09:39] (a lot of which is not iptables' fault, but more that it exposes a lot of functionality which is not easily explained and which require you to understand how the internet works) [09:41] Mithrandir: exactly. hence the definitions hold, but I must add that to gauge the learning effort is mostly subjective [09:41] Mithrandir, zakame, Burgundavia: "user friendly" vs. "(perpetual) noob friendly" --- i don't think i can find any explanation better than this: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm (search for "blissfully" on the page, to get to the right paragraph) === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:42] At least iptables is a little more user-friendly than ipchains. [09:42] ipchains bites back. [09:43] to me, this is a very insightful distinction. what is your opinion? [09:44] ejofee: I don't agree with the car analogy in there, but the rest holds (fairly well) === Tonio__ [n=tonio@cac94-5-82-229-219-55.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:44] Mithrandir: yeah, the car analogy is slightly... off-topic :) [09:45] hi everyone [09:45] haha === Tonio__ [n=tonio@tonio.planetemu.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:45] heya Tonio_ [09:46] yop zakame === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === wjb [n=warren@c220-237-173-120.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Lasse [n=Lasse@cpe.atm4-0-1301006.0x50a0824e.vgnxx6.customer.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Lasse [n=Lasse@cpe.atm4-0-1301006.0x50a0824e.vgnxx6.customer.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [10:26] Mithrandir: i intend to send the author this "correction", which makes the analogy much shorter and on-topic: "It's like the difference between an axe and a chainsaw. It's easier (more intuitive, easier to figure out how) to cut a tree with an axe, right? However, for somebody who knows how to manage it, it's much easier and efficient to do it with a chainsaw." :) === chillywilly [n=danielb@CPE-65-26-218-21.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === yosch [n=yosch@clrglop216.in2p3.fr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tvo [n=tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Determinist [n=deter@87.69.18.25.cable.012.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:02] ajmitch_: pong [11:03] Riddell: was just questioning the xlibs-static-pic dep for libqt4-dev [11:04] I'm guessing the dep is meant to be removed? === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:08] ajmitch_: it's not meant to be since the debian packagers would have put it there for a reason but it may well should be [11:08] ajmitch_: but qt4 built successfully, does it not do so any more? [11:08] it's not a build dependency [11:09] and it makes libqt4-dev uninstallable, sadly === ajmitch_ is just wanting it for an LCA tutorial session by a trolltech guy tomorrow :) === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tortho [n=tortho@pppoecl83016.minlos.no] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:21] Hi, The gtk-gnutella package in Dapper is not working, is this supposed to be entered as a bug in launcpad? Or is it to early? === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-12-18-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu === garbage_ [n=garbage@bgepxyout-02.asiapac.hp.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:29] argh [11:29] someone give me something to kill === siretart hides the dagger from mez [11:30] c === TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [11:30] tortho: launchpad is the right place for this [11:30] sorry [11:30] very frustrated... at the moment [11:30] and not in a good way [11:31] tortho: use this link https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gtk-gnutella/+filebug === Determinist [n=deter@87.69.18.25.cable.012.net.il] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:35]