[02:12] <Tonio_> siretart: there was a problem while uploading kmhtconverter on revu, and upload fails for me actually....
[02:12] <Tonio_> siretart: can you remove it from queue ?
[02:13] <siretart> Tonio_: done
[02:13] <siretart> gn8
[02:13] <Tonio_> siretart: thanks :)
[02:19] <raphink> siretart: ajmitch made me an account on tiber
[02:20] <raphink> it's a really nice, but I don't have writing rights on /var/revu/revu1-incoming
[02:20] <ajmitch> yes, I told him about that :)
[02:20] <raphink> so that I can't run revu-build
[02:20] <ajmitch> umm
[02:20] <ajmitch> you should be in the pbuilder group
[02:21] <ajmitch> ok, looks like you need to be in another group
[02:21] <ajmitch> one moment
[02:22] <raphink> otherwise it's very nice. I was able to find out why some upload didn't go up, by looking at /home/ftp and other stuff
[02:22] <raphink> very useful
[02:22] <raphink> ok
[02:22] <ajmitch> it should work now, might need to logout & login
[02:24] <raphink> ok
[02:24] <raphink> I'll try
[02:32] <raphink> siretart, ajmitch
[02:32] <raphink>  $ revu-build kmhtconvert_0.7.3-0ubuntu1.dsc
[02:32] <raphink> W: /home/raphink/.pbuilderrc does not exist
[02:32] <raphink>   -> Logging to kmhtconvert_0.7.3-0ubuntu1.buildlog
[02:32] <raphink> ls: *.deb: No such file or directory
[02:32] <raphink> is that normal ?
[02:33] <raphink> :s
[02:35] <ajmitch> it's normal if the build breaks
[02:35] <ajmitch> which happens often enough, when the uploaded package just doesn't build in pbuilder
[02:36] <raphink> hmm
[02:36] <raphink> it builds in my pbuilder though
[02:37] <raphink> so maybe it's the revu pbuilder that isn't up-to-date
[02:37] <raphink> .
[02:37] <raphink> ?
[02:39] <ajmitch> raphink: then update it
[02:39] <raphink> how ?
[02:39] <raphink> do I have the right to run pbuilder update ?
[02:40] <raphink> mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/cache/pbuilder/build//6798': Permission denied
[02:40] <raphink> ;)
[02:40] <raphink> oh I hvae sudo rights for pbuilder
[02:40] <raphink> good to know
[02:40] <raphink> :)
[02:41] <ajmitch> use pbuilder-dapper update
[02:41] <raphink> hmm
[02:42] <raphink> I'm running sudo pbuilder update currently
[02:42] <raphink> is that fine ?
[02:42] <ajmitch> please don't
[02:42] <ajmitch> no
[02:42] <raphink> oh no it's a breezy one :(
[02:42] <raphink> argh
[02:42] <raphink> ok I'm updating the dapper one
[02:45] <raphink> ajmitch: is it possible to have revu-build a bit more verbose?
[02:46] <ajmitch> it's a script, so yes
[02:46] <raphink> hehe
[02:47] <raphink> I guess I just have to cp /usr/local/bin/revu-build to my ~ and modify it ;)
[02:47] <raphink> so its more verbose ;)
[02:47] <raphink> that's how you mean?
[02:47] <raphink> ;)
[02:49] <LaserJock> so is revu-build what is used to generate what you see when you click on the details for a package on revu?
[02:50] <raphink> its used to generate this LaserJock http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1606
[02:50] <raphink> just ran it on this package to test :)
[02:51] <LaserJock> but it can also be used from ~/ to right?
[02:51] <raphink> how do you mean?
[02:51] <raphink> you mean if you want to use it on your comp?
[02:52] <raphink> anyway
[02:52] <raphink> time to go to bed
[02:52] <raphink> almost 3 AM
[02:53] <raphink> and I have to go out and see seveas tomorrow :)
[02:53] <raphink> 'night
< LaserJock :)
[03:09] <ajmitch> Riddell: ping?
[03:28] <psusi> the head is massively thrashing and the pitch is getting higher and higher
[05:18] <hub> wow
[05:19] <hub> kernel seriously broke
[05:19] <ajmitch> how badly?
[05:19] <hub> the console is messy
[05:19] <hub> X does not even start
[05:20] <hub> trying the old kernel
[05:20] <hub> thumbnailing in nautilus is also broken
[05:20] <hub> files a bug
[05:22] <hub> and it stall on "detecting and activating hardware"
[05:22] <hub> for a long time
[05:24] <hub> now I understand the "freeze"
[05:25] <ajmitch_> hm, I missed the comments
[05:27] <hub> ajmitch_: udev is fscked
[05:27] <hub> completely
[05:27] <hub> I reboot signle
[05:30] <ajmitch_> hm
[05:30] <ajmitch_> I might put off dist-upgrading tonight then
[05:31] <hub> yeah
[05:31] <hub> possibly
[05:31] <hub> but the old kernel does not boot either
[05:31] <hub> 'cause of udev
[05:31] <minghua> does that mean I should update kernel but hold udev?
[05:31] <hub> minghua: hold eveything
[05:31] <ajmitch_> well there's been no udev upload for two weeks
[05:32] <ajmitch_> so you can't blame changes there
[05:32] <hub> kernel got updated
[05:32] <minghua> hub: all right, fortunately I don't need any new stuff, thanks
[05:32] <hub> I did a mass upgrade
[05:32] <ajmitch_> last kernel upload I see was 5 days ago
[05:32] <hub> and I still miss bits like dbus 0.60
[05:32] <ajmitch_>  2.6.15-13.18 ?
[05:32] <hub> I don;t know why
[05:32] <hub> ajmitch: that one
[05:33] <hub> ajmitch: but maybe the machine is fscked
[05:33] <hub> it is an old PIII
[05:33] <ajmitch_> so it's nothing new that's been introduced in the last day or so
[05:33] <ajmitch_> where does it stop booting for you?
[05:34] <minghua> Hmm, I am using 2.6.15-13.18
[05:34] <ajmitch_> so am I
[05:34] <minghua> so it looks the bug is specific to hub's machine
[05:34] <ajmitch_> I had it stop once at detecting & activating hardware today
[05:34] <ajmitch_> like it did last week
[05:34] <ajmitch_> but a reboot fixed it
[05:34] <hub> I did reboot thrice
[05:35] <hub> now I'm in signle user
[05:35] <hub> and try manual fiddling
[05:37] <hub> maybe should I install Xandors ;-/
[05:39] <minghua> heh
[05:40] <hub> where do I find udev logs?
[05:41] <hub> udevplug fail
[05:45] <LaserJock> muahahaha, I got vmware-player to use linux in Windows.
[05:47] <LaserJock> now VMware is useful ;-)
[05:48] <Kyral> lol
[05:48] <Kyral> I got a LAMP setup
[05:48] <Kyral> azuredream.homelinux.org
[05:56] <LaserJock> Kyral: nothing there :(
[05:57] <Kyral> LaserJock: eh?
[05:58] <hub> fsck
[05:58] <Kyral> http://azuredream.homelinux.org/blog/
[06:00] <LaserJock> Kyral: all I see is "The Career Fair Cometh"
[06:01] <Kyral> yah
[06:01] <Kyral> right now thats all it is lol
[06:01] <Kyral> a blog lol
[06:01] <Kyral> I just set it up today shessh
[06:03] <LaserJock> Kyral: np, I think I have a blog somewhere but I don't remember where at the moment (blogger.com perhaps)
[06:03] <LaserJock> Kyral: I don't even have enough time to get the things done I would blog about let alone write the blog ;-)
[06:06] <minghua> LaserJock: same here. :-)  my last blog entry is in June
[06:08] <hub> plugdevd does not even have a debug mode of any soirt
[06:08] <hub> udevplug I mean
[06:19] <LaserJock> hmm, I haven't seen elmo on -devel all day
[06:20] <hub> isn't he at LCA?
[06:20] <LaserJock> oh, that could be
[06:21] <LaserJock> well, he's excused then ;-)
[06:23] <hub> krap
[06:23] <hub> my console is really messed up
[06:23] <hub> it display garbage
[06:44] <Kyral> okay bedtime
[06:47] <LaserJock> cya Kyral
[06:55] <zakame> hi all
[07:17] <dholbach> good morning
[07:18] <lucas> hi dholbach
[07:18] <lucas> you are up early :)
[07:18] <dholbach> Yeah, just waking up :)
[07:18] <Revan> heya dholbach :)
[07:18] <dholbach> hey zakame
[07:19] <dholbach> gar... it's cold over here
[07:20] <lucas> hehe, you got into that cold wave from the east of europe ?
[07:20] <dholbach> -17C; felt temperature -24C
[07:20] <dholbach> I'll wait a bit with taking the dog out. :)
[07:20] <Treenaks> dholbach: ouch
[07:21] <dholbach> Once you're walking, it's ok - but long mobile conversation hurt. :-)
[07:21] <Treenaks> dholbach: -4 here
[07:21] <dholbach> Nice
[07:21] <Treenaks> thanks to the north sea
[07:24] <lucas> dholbach: have you heard of some plans about getting ekiga (gnomemeeting 2) in dapper ?
[07:24] <Treenaks> that would ROCK
[07:24] <Treenaks> btw, wpd2sxw needs a recompile (it's uninstallable atm)
[07:24] <dholbach> lucas: yes, i talked to the pkg-voip team
[07:25] <dholbach> lucas: after they have it, i'll test it and talk to matt and colin - which reminds me, need to mail them
[07:26] <lucas> ok, that's great
[08:03] <dholbach> What's the ipython situation?
[08:04] <dholbach> Are we about to request UVF exception and sync or what?
[08:09] <dholbach> Ok just saw - requires ubuntu update)
[08:10] <lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DCT
[08:11] <dholbach> I'd like to hear more opinions on the UVF requests
[08:11] <dholbach> I don't want to be the only one deciding.
[08:12] <lucas> dholbach: the problem is that, in the end, you'll be the one deciding
[08:12] <dholbach> No, we can have a look and say "wow that's lot of fixes" - or "no, that's just features"
[08:13] <lucas> my POV would be :
[08:13] <dholbach> I don't want to be the only one with an opinion.
[08:13] <lucas> - if it's a lib, let's take things carefully
[08:13] <lucas> - if it's not a lib (no packages depending on it), and it was suffficiently tested to make sure it doesn't explode, let's sync it
[08:14] <dholbach> Hm...
[08:14] <lucas> but I know it's not the opinion I'm supposed to have :-)
[08:14] <dholbach> You can have every opinion you can think of  :-)
[08:14] <dholbach> libgettext-ruby looks good to me
[08:15] <lucas> shouldn't we track UVF exc req using bugs in malone, assigned to MOTU or motureviewers ?
[08:15] <lucas> I find it hard to follow the mails
[08:15] <dholbach> It is, but I want people to read this.
[08:15] <dholbach> I'm not sure, if many people track motureviewers.
[08:15] <dholbach> I want this to be discussed
[08:17] <dholbach> What about sisu?
[08:17] <dholbach> Is there no Upstream changelog or anything?
[08:17] <lucas> yup, no upstream changelog
[08:17] <lucas> the changes are mainly to the build system
[08:17] <minghua> dholbach: I think the problem is, many people don't have the knowledge / don't care enough to give opinions
[08:17] <dholbach> gar!
[08:18] <minghua> dholbach: take myself as example, I use none of the packages that request for UVF exception now
[08:18] <dholbach> minghua: It's merely reading and thinking... :-)
[08:18] <minghua> I don't know if I should speack out my opinion
[08:19] <dholbach> it's a gut feeling
[08:19] <minghua> dholbach: just reading the diffstat would be good enough?
[08:19] <dholbach> the changelog mostly - the numbers in the diffstat can make sense too
[08:20] <dholbach> If you see 90% changes in doc/ you can be pretty sure, that we have enough time to fix the 10% if they explode :-)
[08:20] <dholbach> stuff like that
[08:22] <dholbach> lucas: sisu looks unintrusive, I just can't see sense in all the changes :-)
[08:23] <lucas> me neither, but I'd prefer to stay in sync
[08:23] <lucas> since the packaging looks complex, it might be hard to fix later
[08:32] <dholbach> I'm going to request uvf exception approval for lyx, iypton, libgettext-ruby and sisu
[08:33] <dholbach> If I missed something you all have time to find out, as long as I'm under the shower.
[08:36] <lucas> can we discuss psi ?
[08:36] <lucas> it's the most popular jabber-only client
[08:36] <lucas> it would be a shame to release dapper with an old version
[08:37] <dholbach> Can you send the relevant info to the mailing list?
[08:38] <lucas> ok
[08:38] <dholbach> Thanks.
[08:41] <lucas> psi is badly maintained in debian :/
[08:41] <lucas> i'm not sure what to do with what \sh changed to the package
[08:42] <minghua> Hmm, I wonder what is the difference between lesstif and openmotif
[08:42] <lucas> dholbach:  btw, what's the process for UVF and packages requesting a merge ?
[08:42] <lucas> you first seek approval by Kamion and then upload the merged package ?
[08:43] <dholbach> Not sure - the Schedule mentions that this week is the "finish rest of the merges" week
[08:43] <lucas> no I mean: psi has local changes in ubuntu.
[08:44] <lucas> let's say you ask for an UVF exception for psi
[08:44] <lucas> how do we proceed with uploading 0.10-2ubuntu1 ?
[08:44] <dholbach> I don't understand the question.
[08:44] <lucas> psi:
[08:44] <dholbach> We ask to get new Upstream code in, we upload it if they say ok.
[08:44] <lucas> Version in Ubuntu: 0.9.3-2ubuntu1
[08:44] <lucas> Version is Sid: 0.10-2
[08:45] <lucas> oh ok
[08:45] <dholbach> It's quite easy. :-)
[08:45] <dholbach> ok, brb
[08:55] <ejofee> why isn't mc (midnight commander) included in a standard (k)ubuntu install? or why not at least on the cd?
[08:55] <lucas> hi
[08:55] <ajmitch_> because very few people use it, compared to something like nautilus or konqueror?
[08:56] <ajmitch_> there are many packages that could be on the cd, but aren't due to lack of space
[08:56] <ejofee> ajmitch_: mc is not very large
[08:56] <ajmitch_> neither are a number of others
[08:56] <lucas> many packages are not very large :)
[08:56] <ajmitch_> but they add up
[08:57] <ajmitch_> mc is not in main, either
[08:57] <minghua> Is vim/emacs in standard install?
[08:57] <Mithrandir> vim, not emacs
[08:57] <Mithrandir> emacs was thrown out after 4.10
[08:57] <ajmitch_> Mithrandir: didn't they want another desktop environment?
[08:57] <Mithrandir> ajmitch_: haha. :-P
[08:57] <ejofee> ajmitch_: oh, it is not in main? it's ok, then. it compensates. :P
[08:57] <Mithrandir> ajmitch_: you do know vim has more embedded languages than emacs?
[08:58] <ajmitch_> Mithrandir: no, since I rarely use vim
[08:58] <Mithrandir> ajmitch_: perl, python, ruby, tcl at least.  Or can be compiled with.
[08:59] <ejofee> Mithrandir: is vim better than nano?
[08:59] <Mithrandir> ejofee: is a SUV better than a bicycle?
[08:59] <minghua> the answer is pretty subjective, I am afraid
[09:00] <ejofee> Mithrandir: if vim is so good, then why do fewer and fewer people use it?
[09:01] <Mithrandir> ejofee: they do?
[09:01] <Mithrandir> minghua: a JSF or AH-66, of course. :-)
[09:01] <Mithrandir> uh, AH-64
[09:02] <ajmitch_> hm
[09:02] <ejofee> minghua: emacs is a text editor
[09:02] <ajmitch_> ejofee: that's one of its minor functions
[09:03] <ejofee> ajmitch_: what is vim's equivalent for windows, btw?
[09:03] <Mithrandir> ejofee: you have vim for windows too
[09:03] <Mithrandir> or you could use vim-gtk or something
[09:04] <ejofee> Mithrandir, ajmitch_: if emacs is better than vim, then why do many distros include only vim by default?
[09:04] <ejofee> is it because vim is smaller?
[09:04] <ajmitch_> better? now that's a good topic for a heated discussion
[09:05] <Mithrandir> ejofee: I'm not going to have that discussion.  Editor preference is mainly that -- a matter of preference.
[09:05] <Mithrandir> I happen to prefer emacs, but I wouldn't say that vim is a worse editor.  It's just not my favourite.
[09:05] <ejofee> Mithrandir: ok, then, statistically speaking, which one has a larger user base?
[09:05] <Mithrandir> I don't know
[09:06] <Mithrandir> (and I don't really care, I use the one I prefer and I would expect others to do the same)
[09:06] <minghua> and a lot of people use both vim and emacs
[09:07] <Mithrandir> I would also recommend people to learn both, at least on a superficial level so they won't be lost if their favourite isn't on the system.
[09:07] <ejofee> Mithrandir: sometimes statistics can show how evolved (or adapted) a subject can be.
[09:07] <zakame> emacs!?! vim!?! all in one sentence!?!
[09:07] <Mithrandir> I'm not sure what you mean with you mean by "evolved".
[09:07] <ejofee> Mithrandir: doesn't vim tend to be found everywhere?
[09:07] <Mithrandir> no
[09:08] <torkel> ejofee: no, vi maybe but not vim...
[09:08] <ejofee> Mithrandir: adapted to most users' needs
[09:08] <Mithrandir> elvis or nvi can be found on most systems, though.
[09:08] <Mithrandir> ejofee: my needs are surely different that yours.
[09:08] <ejofee> Mithrandir: some needs are statistically more obscure or less representative than others.
[09:09] <ejofee> Mithrandir: statistically. not ethically.
[09:09] <ejofee> Mithrandir: but yes.
[09:09] <Mithrandir> sure, but if that's a critical piece of functionality for me, I don't care if 99% of the users don't need it.
[09:09] <ejofee> Mithrandir: agreed.
[09:10] <Mithrandir> (like, I do moderate newsgroups once in a while and having a good integration between my news reader and editor is crucial.  I don't expect other people to really care about that.
[09:10] <ejofee> btw, is there any distro (that you know of) which includes emacs on a default install? what about on a minimal environment?
[09:11] <Mithrandir> if you want something resembling a stripped-down emacs, use jed.
[09:11] <Mithrandir> and no, but why is the default install so important?  emacs is on the cd, it's in main and supported.
[09:13] <ejofee> Mithrandir: when i boot an distro's official cd in the rescue mode and i see that i can't modify files because it uses vim (which i don't know how to use), i do care. i then miss mc, or maybe nano or emacs.
[09:13] <Mithrandir> ejofee: use our live cd and install emacs, then. :-P
[09:14] <ejofee> Mithrandir  :)
[09:14] <zakame> hm, there's nothing wrong in being ambidextrous
[09:15] <minghua> debian's rescure CD (actually just the installer) should use nano instead of vi, don't know about ubuntu's though
[09:15] <ejofee> minghua: why do you think it *should* use nano instead of vi?
[09:16] <Mithrandir> the ubuntu installer cd has nano on it.
[09:16] <Mithrandir> ejofee: because nano is way more newbie friendly.
[09:16] <Mithrandir> a rescue/install cd needs an editor everybody can use to rescue their system.  It doesn't matter if it's suboptimal for writing lots of code or books or such.
[09:17] <ejofee> Mithrandir: right.
[09:17] <minghua> ejofee: sorry, I was not clear.  I meant "should be using nano now"
[09:17] <minghua> or "I remember they are using nano now"
[09:17] <ejofee> Mithrandir, minghua: then mc (which has its internal editor) would be the very best! plus it resembles nc.
[09:18] <ejofee> ... or bios.
[09:18] <ejofee> i think mc is best for a minimal, rescue cd.
[09:18] <Mithrandir> I never ever liked norton commander.
[09:18] <zakame> netcat?
[09:19] <zakame> err norton commander, sorry
[09:19] <dholbach> going to request uvf exceptions for lyx, ipython, libgettext-ruby, sisu, psi
[09:19] <dholbach> the rest requires discussion
[09:21] <ejofee> mc is THE BEST minimal tool when it comes to user friendliness. plus it provides a nice way to browse the file system (sh is not that friendly to the noob).
[09:22] <Mithrandir> ejofee: we're going to switch to a live cd based installer for dapper anyway, so you shouldn't need to use a shell to browse the fs anyway.
[09:22] <lucas> ejofee: feed2imap is the best feed aggregator from my POV. Am I bitching about getting it on the CDs ? ;)
[09:22] <ejofee> Mithrandir: what about the rescue cases?
[09:23] <Mithrandir> ejofee: a live cd should be much better suited for that, don't you think?
[09:23] <dholbach> ejofee: discuss tihs on a mailing list, justify it and suggest what should be removed from the CDs instead of it.
[09:23] <ejofee> Mithrandir: ok, but some live cds fail back... into vim
[09:24] <dholbach> ejofee: this discussion doesn't get nowhere without a concrete proposal
[09:24] <ejofee> Mithrandir: let mc be the live cd's failsafe case. why not?
[09:24] <ejofee> dholbach: right
[09:25] <lucas> ejofee: subscribe to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com and discuss it there
[09:25] <Mithrandir> ejofee: I am of the opinion that mc's UI is horrible, so convincing me will be quite hard. :-)
[09:25] <ejofee> Mithrandir: as people were doing back in the 90s, when they were "failsafing" to dos / nc
[09:25] <lucas> we are not the one able to take the decision anyway, so it's worthless discussing it there
[09:25] <Mithrandir> I've never ever, ever met somebody who had a boot floppy which fell back to norton commander.
[09:26] <ejofee> Mithrandir: well, you're right :)... but we are talking cds here
[09:26] <ejofee> lucas: thanks. i will.
[09:26] <Mithrandir> ejofee: Installed-Size: 5952
[09:26] <Mithrandir> I don't think that qualifies as "minimal" in any sense of the word.
[09:26] <ejofee> Mithrandir: i think it has a minimal version
[09:27] <ejofee> Mithrandir: for the post-cd era, it IS minimal *by all means*.
[09:27] <lucas> we aren't yet in the post-cd era
[09:27] <ejofee> lucas: ok... for the cd era :D
[09:27] <Mithrandir> no, it's not.  You need to stuff this into a ramdisk and a 6MB hit to the installer's memory requirements is _huge_
[09:27] <Mithrandir> if it was 250k would could possible be having a meaningful conversation.
[09:27] <Mithrandir> possibly, even
[09:29] <ejofee> Mithrandir: then is there any console file browser (with no internal editor) which is slimmer?
[09:29] <ejofee> Mithrandir: user friendly, that is
[09:29] <ejofee> Mithrandir: rather, "noob-friendly"
[09:30] <ptlo> one thought about live cd in rescue mode - can it be unmounted? i've never used ubuntu live cd's (never needed a rescue :), but i once tried using knoppix' cd and i remember the frustration i got when i tried to access something on another cd (the system had only one cd drive)
[09:30] <Mithrandir> ejofee: that's not relevant.  6MB is too much.
[09:31] <Mithrandir> ptlo: no, it can't.
[09:31] <ejofee> Mithrandir: that was not an argument. i was really wondering whether there was some alternative.
[09:32] <Mithrandir> ejofee: none I know of.
[09:32] <Mithrandir> ejofee: I think we just have to live with the fact that the console is, more or less, dead.
[09:32] <ptlo> Mithrandir: that's a pity, i believe it'd be more usable in that case (i'm not starting a rant here, i do trust that there are very good reasons for not being so)
[09:32] <ejofee> Mithrandir: anyway, vim alone is 1300 kb...
[09:33] <zakame_away> hm, then again, what's the diff between {noob,user}-friendly?
[09:33] <Mithrandir> ejofee: vim's on the live cd, but not in the installer.  There's nano there.
[09:33] <ejofee> zakame_away: vim is user-friendly
[09:33] <ejofee> zakame_away: vim helps the user do lots of things
[09:33] <ejofee> zakame_away: ... and very easily... as soon as the user is a user, not a noob.
[09:33] <Mithrandir> zakame_away: newbie-friendly means it's easy to get started with.  User-friendly means it's easy to do the stuff you want to do, but it might require learning effort to get there.
[09:33] <ejofee> zakame_away: that is, as soon as the user *learns* how to use it
[09:33] <zakame_away> ptlo: I had a similar experience, but it was quite easy in my case
[09:34] <zakame_away> ejofee, Mithrandir : ah
[09:35] <zakame_away> well, in that case, iptables is ``user-friendly'' for me ;)
[09:35] <Mithrandir> ptlo: yes, it's a hard problem to solve.  What you'd need to do is to load all the data into memory and mount that tmpfs somewhere.  > 2GB memory isn't too common just yet.
[09:35] <ejofee> zakame_away: iptables isn't user-friendly for anybody. it has a way too techie design.
[09:36] <zakame_away> IMU, user-friendly approximates (or daresay equals) being intuitive, right?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> ejofee, vim is far from userfriendly. nano is
[09:36] <Mithrandir> intuitive interfaces aren't.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: nano is not user friendly.  It gets in my way.  vim and emacs generally doesn't.
[09:36] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: however, nano is newbie friendly.
[09:36] <Burgundavia> Mithrandir, yes
[09:38] <zakame_away> ejofee: I was testing yours, and Mithrandir's definition.  :)
[09:38] <ejofee> Burgundavia: from what i've heard, nano is user-unfriendly, but noob-friendly
[09:38] <Mithrandir> zakame_away: I think iptables is user-friendly, but it takes a fair amount of time to learn
[09:39] <Mithrandir> (a lot of which is not iptables' fault, but more that it exposes a lot of functionality which is not easily explained and which require you to understand how the internet works)
[09:41] <zakame> Mithrandir: exactly. hence the definitions hold, but I must add that to gauge the learning effort is mostly subjective
[09:41] <ejofee> Mithrandir, zakame, Burgundavia:  "user friendly" vs. "(perpetual) noob friendly" --- i don't think i can find any explanation better than this: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm (search for "blissfully" on the page, to get to the right paragraph)
[09:42] <StevenK> At least iptables is a little more user-friendly than ipchains.
[09:42] <StevenK> ipchains bites back.
[09:43] <ejofee> to me, this is a very insightful distinction. what is your opinion?
[09:44] <Mithrandir> ejofee: I don't agree with the car analogy in there, but the rest holds (fairly well)
[09:44] <ejofee> Mithrandir: yeah, the car analogy is slightly... off-topic :)
[09:45] <Tonio__> hi everyone
[09:45] <zakame> haha
[09:45] <zakame> heya Tonio_
[09:46] <Tonio_> yop zakame
[10:26] <ejofee> Mithrandir: i intend to send the author this "correction", which makes the analogy much shorter and on-topic: "It's like the difference between an axe and a chainsaw. It's easier (more intuitive, easier to figure out how) to cut a tree with an axe, right? However, for somebody who knows how to manage it, it's much easier and efficient to do it with a chainsaw." :)
[11:02] <Riddell> ajmitch_: pong
[11:03] <ajmitch_> Riddell: was just questioning the xlibs-static-pic dep for libqt4-dev
[11:04] <ajmitch_> I'm guessing the dep is meant to be removed?
[11:08] <Riddell> ajmitch_: it's not meant to be since the debian packagers would have put it there for a reason but it may well should be
[11:08] <Riddell> ajmitch_: but qt4 built successfully, does it not do so any more?
[11:08] <ajmitch_> it's not a build dependency
[11:09] <ajmitch_> and it makes libqt4-dev uninstallable, sadly
[11:21] <tortho> Hi, The gtk-gnutella package in Dapper is not working, is this supposed to be entered as a bug in launcpad? Or is it to early?
[11:29] <Mez> argh
[11:29] <Mez> someone give me something to kill
[11:30] <TheMuso> c
[11:30] <siretart> tortho: launchpad is the right place for this
[11:30] <Mez> sorry
[11:30] <Mez> very frustrated... at the moment
[11:30] <Mez> and not in a good way
[11:31] <siretart> tortho: use this link https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gtk-gnutella/+filebug
[11:35] <tortho> siretart: Thanks, Reported.
[11:40] <siretart> tortho: your report confuses me because of https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gtk-gnutella/+bug/6472
[11:40] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 6472: "[breezy]  gtk-gnutella reports "*** RUNNING AN OLD VERSION ***"" Fix req. for: gtk-gnutella (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: MOTU, Status: Unconfirmed
[11:41] <siretart> you report it was working in breezy, the other user that it was not. This indicates me that it might be not only depending on the version
[11:43] <tortho> I have been running breezy since it was released, without any problems.. If you have a look on their web page, the only version wich should be "blocked" is the 0.95 version and that was from the 22. of november i I remember right..
[11:45] <tortho> siretart:  From the page:: Version 0.96b is a beta version of forthcoming 0.96. It is now mandatory to use this beta version as the 0.95.x series is about to expire on November 26th.
[11:45] <siretart> tortho: I'm not familar to gnutella nor to gtk-gnutella at all. That was just a guess
[11:46] <ajmitch_> how very annoying, that they break compatibility so quickly
[11:46] <ajmitch_> hey koke :)
[11:58] <tortho> siretart: I duplicated those bugs... the bad thing is that i downloaded the original package from their website and it doesn't work either.
[12:21] <raphink> still about 110 packages to review and there we are :)
[12:21] <raphink> lol
[12:29] <ajmitch_> morning \sh
[12:29] <\sh> moins ajmitch_ sitting in an office and try to destroy cacti :) or better improve it
[12:29] <ajmitch_> hehe
[12:30] <ajmitch_> and then I might see if I can get qt4 to be installable before tomorrow morning
[12:31] <ajmitch_> \sh: try & install libqt4-dev :)
[12:32] <\sh> ajmitch_: kick someone who is not \sh :) looking for a fix just now :)
[12:32] <ajmitch_> hehe
[12:32] <ajmitch_> probably just drop the dep from control
[12:33] <ajmitch_> I talked to riddell briefly
[12:33] <Riddell> ajmitch_: I'll look at qt4
[12:33] <ajmitch_> we don't have the package needed here, and I don't know enough about the -pic crack :)
[12:33] <ajmitch_> Riddell: thanks
[12:35] <Tonio_> anyone's got a few minutes to revu jRe's "keep" ? http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1601
[12:43] <ajmitch_> sigh
[12:44] <ajmitch_> mail to utnubu-discuss from me just doesn't seem to get through
[12:44] <ajmitch_> lucas: did you receive the email I sent? it was addressed to you & Cc: utnubu-discuss
[12:45] <lucas> I got it, yes
[12:45] <lucas> are you subscribed ?
[12:46] <ajmitch_> yes
[12:46] <ajmitch_> with my debian.org address
[12:47] <lucas> strange
[12:47] <ajmitch_> quite strange
[12:48] <to2> hi!
[12:48] <ajmitch_> hello
[12:58] <to2> Where is the home from 'ubuntu-motu'? america?
[12:58] <dholbach> 'home'?
[12:59] <dholbach> We're located around the globe, luckily.
[12:59] <raphink> this is our home here :)
[12:59] <raphink> welcome home
[12:59] <raphink> come sit by the fire :)
[12:59] <raphink> and have yourself a drink
[12:59] <Yagisan> to2: earth
[01:00] <raphink> so far I think we're all on earth, yeah
[01:00] <raphink> except sabdfl, from time to time ;)
[01:00] <to2> 'ubuntu-motu' was set in which country - sorry my english is not the best!
[01:01] <Yagisan> to2: no single country. so earth
[01:01] <raphink> you mean the chan? the ML?
[01:01] <to2> no land - no time!
[01:01] <dholbach> a couple of countries, all the time :)
[01:02] <to2> raphink, how late in your country?
[01:02] <raphink> :)
[01:02] <raphink> 13:02
[01:02] <Yagisan> 23:02
[01:02] <to2> in germany it is 'the same'
[01:02] <to2> 13:02
[01:03] <to2> Yagisan, 'where is your homeland'?
[01:03] <Yagisan> to2: Australia
[01:03] <to2> ... so far
[01:03] <to2> from my living room
[01:22] <to2> ciao - bye, bye - aufwiedersehen ...
[01:33] <KuriKai> hello
[01:34] <KuriKai> anyoen see this?
[01:35] <raphink> hi KuriKai
[01:35] <raphink> ajmitch_: grep-dctrl that you gave me searches in control files of the binaries it seems, so it can't find Build-Depends
[01:35] <raphink> ajmitch_: or am I missing something?
[01:36] <KuriKai> cool people can see what i type
[01:36] <KuriKai> cause yagisan cant
[01:36] <raphink> ah?
[01:36] <KuriKai> he was in the channel a bit ago
[01:37] <azeem> raphink: you can tell it to search Sources.gz as well, I believe
[01:37] <KuriKai> im going to be hosting doomsday ubuntu packages
[01:37] <raphink> hmm let's see
[01:37] <raphink> I don't seem to find this in the manual but I'll serach again
[01:44] <Yagisan> ???
[01:49] <Yagisan> raphink: I must be getting popular now - people look for me even in the wrong channel
[01:49] <raphink> hehe
[01:49] <raphink> :)
[01:50] <Yagisan> raphink: he's a mirror operator for a can't-be-in-ubuntu-because-upstream-stuffed-up package
[01:51] <raphink> stuffed up?
[01:51] <raphink> how do you mean?
[01:51] <Yagisan> raphink: although, finally upstream is fixing the mess
[01:51] <raphink> ok
[01:51] <Yagisan> raphink: mixed licenses
[01:51] <raphink> ok
[01:52] <Yagisan> raphink: they are rewriting, and properly copyrighting the source code now, so in a few versions it will be an in-ubuntu-package. probably at dapper + 3 at upstreams pace
[01:53] <raphink> ok
[01:54] <Yagisan> raphink: it seems repeated cluebats helped :)
[01:57] <raphink> grr
[01:59] <StevenK> raphink: grep-dctrl -F<Search Fields> -s<Fields to show> data < /var/lib/apt/lists/...
[01:59] <raphink> yeah just found out
[01:59] <raphink> thanks :)
[01:59] <StevenK> steven@broken:~% grep-dctrl -FMaintainer -sPackage stevenk /var/lib/apt/lists/au.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy_main_binary-i386_Packages
[01:59] <StevenK> Package: linda
[01:59] <Yagisan> raphink: could you check something for me. can you /msg me ? just type anything
[02:00] <raphink> StevenK: :)
[02:00] <Yagisan> raphink: thanks. not my client that is broken.
[02:00] <raphink> :)
[02:01] <raphink> this guy might not be registered
[02:01] <raphink> ;)
[02:01] <raphink> on freenode
[02:01] <StevenK> raphink: Just remember, F is for Find, and s is for Show.
[02:01] <raphink> yes
[02:01] <StevenK> -sPackage,Installed-Size or so works too.
[02:01] <raphink> I just missed the < file
[02:01] <Yagisan> raphink: ah - thanks
[02:01] <raphink> I had to find where the source files where
[02:01] <raphink> since I wanted to grep for Build-Depends
[02:01] <raphink> thanks much StevenK :)
[02:02] <StevenK> No problem.
[03:14] <raphink> dholbach: should I file bugs for these ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Transitions/Automake
[03:14] <raphink> or juts fix them and upload them
[03:14] <raphink> ?
[03:15] <dholbach> As you like it.
[03:15] <raphink> ok
[03:15] <raphink> :)
[03:15] <tseng> dholbach: when/have UVF requests gone to matt/collin?
[03:16] <raphink> I thought there would be more FTFS because of this. Won't be as long as I excpected it
[03:16] <dholbach> 4h ago or something
[03:16] <tseng> thanks
[03:31] <\sh> raphink: are they needed those dependencies, or can we regenerate automake stuff locally and provide them as patch to the source files?
[03:32] <raphink> I think they are needed, otherwise they wouldn't be there
[03:32] <raphink> I'm rather for bumping automake1.6 to automake1.9 in these packages
[03:33] <jc-denton> i'm looking for a way to try out beagle 0.2 w/o building mono from source
[03:34] <\sh> raphink: cool :)
[03:34] <raphink> :)
[03:34] <raphink> \sh: that's a minimal harmful change
[04:06] <dholbach> \sh: does ooqstart work with oo2?
[04:07] <\sh> dholbach: I adjusted the install deps for openoffice.org2 first...I can't test right now, if it's really working.
[04:07] <\sh> dholbach: has to wait until this late evening
[04:07] <\sh> or night better
[04:07] <dholbach> I worked on this quite a while and didn't get it working.
[04:08] <dholbach> So I'm interested if you really fixed it.
[04:08] <dholbach> What I found out in the end was that on Linux OO.o2 didn't support the preloading at that time.
[04:08] <dholbach> Hopefully it got better.
[04:09] <\sh> well, if it's not working that it's quite useless ...
[04:09] <\sh> dholbach: what does real upstream say about this lack of cooperation between ooqstart and OO.o2?
[04:10] <dholbach> I didn't mail the lists, it was very shortly before Breezy release.
[04:11] <dholbach> So I tried to fix the code and read as much info on the web as I could find.
[04:17] <Tonio_> dholbach: heya ;)
[04:17] <dholbach> hi tonio_
[04:17] <Tonio_> dholbach: will you be there at the CC ? I fill finally introduce toonight :)
[04:17] <dholbach> When is it?
[04:17] <Tonio_> dholbach: this time is the good one !
[04:18] <Tonio_> today, 21 UTC
[04:18] <dholbach> No, sorry I won't make it. :-/
[04:18] <Tonio_> no pb :)
[04:21] <siretart> dholbach: did you already get an answer for the pending uvf requests?
[04:23] <dholbach> siretart: nope.
[04:23] <siretart> ok
[05:09] <ejofee_> will gaim-2.0.0.beta2 (launched several minutes ago) be built for dapper?
[05:10] <\sh> dholbach: ooqstart is not working...but I can't debug it...how can I start the applet from the console and see what (not) happens
[05:10] <\sh> ejofee_: we are in upstream version freeze period.
[05:10] <\sh> ejofee_: and gaim is IMHO in main, and must be supported for 3 years for dapper, so it's unlikely that a beta will go into dapper...but actually we can think about the final release :)
[05:12] <ogra> \sh, it really depends how quick they are to release their final
[05:12] <ejofee_> \sh: what about including both, in parallel? the standard gaim, and a supplementary gaim2 (just like we did with openoffice2)
[05:12] <ogra> we wont duplicate apps in main
[05:13] <ejofee_> ogra: no, not in main
[05:13] <ogra> but in case gaim2 will enter, gaim will move to universe
[05:13] <ejofee_> ogra: oh, ubuntu-motu only deals with main?
[05:13] <ogra> nope
[05:13] <\sh> ejofee_: no...only with universe...but ogra is main :)
[05:13] <ejofee_> :)
[05:14] <ejofee_> ogra, \sh: building the gaim beta and making it available could be nice to do, as they don't offer any debian / ubuntu version on their site
[05:14] <\sh> ogra: well...right now gaim is quite stable...and gaim2 is not tested properly for dapper so I think for dapper it can be a nogo for main..but this depends on the exception of gnome uploads I think
[05:15] <\sh> ejofee_: they actually know why :)
[05:15] <ejofee_> \sh: they know why? what do you mean?
[05:15] <ejofee_> \sh: debianers don't like to be... beta testers?
[05:15] <ogra> \sh, its in consideration and will depend on how fast the release their final
[05:16] <\sh> ejofee_: debianers can always compile it from source :)
[05:16] <ogra> +putting it in universe *now* not packaged by the future main maintainer would be very silly
[05:16] <ogra> since it duplicates work
[05:16] <\sh> ok...I have to go now...
[05:16] <ogra> so just be patient and poke the gaim2 devs to get the final ready :)
[05:17] <\sh> cu laters when I'm back at home...around 19 or 20 UTC
[05:17] <\sh> bye
[05:28] <bddebian> Heya gang
[05:31] <siretart> huhu bddebian !
[05:33] <bddebian> Heya siretart
[05:52] <raphink> argh
[05:52] <raphink> auto update in debian/rules
[05:52] <raphink> eviiiiiiiiil
[05:52] <Lathiat> haha
[05:54] <raphink> grr
[05:54] <bddebian> Heh
[05:55] <raphink> pff
[05:55] <raphink> how can Debian packages still use this crap
[05:58] <raphink> jpatrick: ready for tonight?
[05:58] <jpatrick> raphink: yes, sir
[05:58] <raphink> good :)
[05:58] <raphink> WikiPage ready?
[05:59] <jpatrick> Not a lot I can do to it...
[05:59] <raphink> ok :)
[05:59] <raphink> lol
[06:01] <stratus> raphink,, auto update thing is really evil and ftpmasters aren't accepting NEW packages with that crap.
[06:02] <raphink> yes I know stratus thats why I'm surpsied to find it in a package that comes from Debian
[06:02] <stratus> raphink, btw you're free to bug old packages
[06:02] <dholbach> raphink: You'd be surprised with a lot of packages. :-)
[06:02] <raphink> yes I guess dholbach
[06:02] <raphink> for now I'm bumping this one to automake1.9
[06:02] <stratus> raphink, there's a lot of people in Debian trying to put more than 15000 packages in shape but unfortunately some others don't do the same.
[06:03] <raphink> because it build-depends on automake1.6
[06:03] <LaserJock> lucas: around?
[06:03] <raphink> and the auto update option prevented me from doing so
[06:03] <stratus> raphink, bug reports are the best thing to do. With these the DDs that cares about QA can act faster.
[06:03] <raphink> stratus: I'm fixing it in Ubuntu frist
[06:03] <raphink> then reporting to Debian
[06:03] <raphink> with the patch
[06:03] <stratus> btw, i already back merged a package from ubuntu with the auto update cdbs thing
[06:04] <stratus> of course i get rid of that before uploading it to Debian
[06:04] <raphink> sure
[06:04] <raphink> stratus: you're a DD?
[06:04] <stratus> raphink, yes like some others around.
[06:05] <raphink> ok
[06:05] <raphink> maybe you could merge this into Debian :)
[06:06] <stratus> raphink, sure if you can open a bug report to Debian inform me the bug number or mail me with the details and i'll open the bug and do the rest with the package maintainer, thanks.
[06:07] <raphink> stratus: shall I open a bug on the BTS and post my debdiff on malone so you can get it and adapt it?
[06:08] <stratus> raphink, yes, but you can attach a patch in your BTS report. You even can tag it as containing a patch with what we call a 'pseudo-header' using   Tag: patch
[06:08] <raphink> hmm
[06:08] <raphink> but I might not put my ubuntu patch directly
[06:09] <raphink> that wouldn't be appreciated, would it?
[06:10] <stratus> raphink, i think everything will be appreciated with the exception of debian/changelog
[06:10] <raphink> stratus: so I should remove the debian/changelog part from the patch before submitting?
[06:11] <stratus> raphink, yes. You just should list the changes in your bug report (the message body).
[06:11] <raphink> ok
[06:11] <stratus> raphink, thanks
[06:12] <stratus> raphink, any problem ask me. I hope it will be easier to you merge changes with the next package in Debian.
[06:17] <LaserJock> hhmm, I think it might be useful to do a motu-school session on bug reporting and interaction with Debian for MOTU(Hopefuls)
[06:19] <bddebian> Hmm, I think I might be worthless :'-(
[06:19] <raphink> hmm
[06:19] <raphink> just commited the change but ....
[06:19] <lucas> LaserJock: pong
[06:19] <raphink> stratus: it seems this package was bumped from Debian in the meanwhile
[06:19] <stratus> raphink, which package?
[06:20] <raphink> kboincspy-cvs
[06:20] <raphink> kboincspy is still in both ubuntu and debian
[06:20] <raphink> but kboincspy-cvs is a cvs snapshot
[06:20] <LaserJock> lucas: I was reading your DCT and utnubu-discuss stuff. Do you think that you can get many DDs to accept the DCT?
[06:20] <raphink> last version merged from Debian is from march 2005
[06:20] <raphink> and it doesn't exist in sid anymore
[06:20] <lucas> LaserJock: my problem now is to get many ubuntu devs to participate
[06:20] <lucas> regarding DDs, probabl
[06:20] <lucas> y
[06:21] <stratus> raphink, looking..
[06:21] <raphink> stratus: sure :)
[06:21] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm really stuggling to understand this issue
[06:23] <tseng> LaserJock: you can struggle forever
[06:23] <tseng> LaserJock: if you make one set of DD's stop complaining, you will piss off another
[06:24] <tseng> see multiple opinions on Maintainer: field or what have you
[06:24] <teprrr> hmm.
[06:24] <LaserJock> tseng: true, I just am trying to find my place in all of this. I have never done much with Debian. Ubuntu has been my first real .deb experience.
[06:24] <minghua> LaserJock: Do you keep track of our feedback on science-related packages?
[06:24] <LaserJock> minghua: what do you mean by feedback?
[06:24] <minghua> LaserJock: I was thinking of using the usertag in Debian BTS to track this
[06:25] <azeem> minghua: how?
[06:25] <minghua> LaserJock: I mean ITP/RFP and bug reports for Debian
[06:25] <raphink> hmm kvpnc was nuked from sid, too stratus. But we still maintain it in Ubuntu, even recently
[06:25] <azeem> ah
[06:25] <minghua> LaserJock: we keep doing good feedback for, say, three months, then after that we can point people to some pages and say:
[06:26] <raphink> or maybe it never was in Debian
[06:26] <LaserJock> I would like to keep track of things but I really don't know how to work with Debian very well and it seems like all of these discussions assume it is a lack of interest that is the problem and not a lack of know-how, which is my problem
[06:26] <stratus> raphink, yes that -cvs package was removed the kboincspy maintainer was maintaining kboincspy-cvs too but opted to keep just the releases and not follow the cvs anymore.
[06:26] <raphink> stratus: so shall we nuke it too?
[06:26] <minghua> these are what we have done for the past months, we reported X bugs, and Y of them got fixed, Z of them got response from Debian maintainer and the rest are simply ignored
[06:27] <minghua> LaserJock: I would volunteer to do that
[06:27] <stratus> raphink, i think it's with dholbach or ogra but if you don't have a fork of the package in my opinion yes.
[06:27] <minghua> LaserJock: and write a small howto to motu-science list
[06:27] <azeem> minghua: that is not different w.g. with bugs reported against GNOME's bugzilla
[06:27] <LaserJock> minghua: right, I would really love to seem some actual numbers
[06:27] <azeem> eh, s/w.g./e.g./
[06:27] <lucas> LaserJock: that's one of the goals of DCT
[06:27] <minghua> LaserJock: I just need to know what we did from you :-)
[06:27] <lucas> work only with maintainers who care
[06:28] <minghua> azeem: I just want to provide some data to DDs, at least the debian-science list
[06:28] <minghua> azeem: and show them we tried to contribute back
[06:29] <minghua> if the number of bugs getting ignored is too large, then at least on next flamewar they can't blame everything on ubuntu
[06:29] <LaserJock> I'm working on writing up a MOTU Science Update to send to debian-science with stuff that we've done and where we currently are
[06:29] <minghua> LaserJock: do you like that idea?
[06:29] <LaserJock> minghua: I do, I just need to get some ideas put together.
[06:30] <minghua> LaserJock: I'll starting doing that tomorrow then.  Today is for the CC meeting :-)
[06:30] <LaserJock> minghua: going for membership?
[06:31] <minghua> yes.  and speaking of that, any MOTU would show up and be my advocate? :-)
[06:31] <LaserJock> minghua: when is the meeting?
[06:31] <minghua> 21:00 UTC
[06:32] <azeem> minghua: are you reporting bugs, or sending patches?
[06:32] <minghua> azeem: about the usertag thing?
[06:32] <lucas> minghua: what's your wiki homepage ?
[06:32] <LaserJock> minghua: I can probably be there. I'm no MOTU but I can at least say something.
[06:32] <minghua> lucas: /MingHua
[06:32] <azeem> minghua: no, I mean about those numbers of bugs being ignored by DDs
[06:33] <minghua> I finished most of my wiki page, the "future plan" part still need work though
[06:34] <minghua> azeem: my plan is basically tracking all ITPs/bugs/patches with usertag, so we can easily see them in one page
[06:34] <lucas> "and is generally " => and am generally"
[06:34] <azeem> minghua: well, ok.  That is a good thing in general of course
[06:34] <minghua> azeem: then it should be easy to categorized finer
[06:34] <raphink> ouch
[06:34] <raphink> is that really allowed ? http://pastebin.com/520860 ...
[06:35] <lucas> minghua: I'm not sure where that's the way to go (usertags)
[06:35] <lucas> they are cool, but they lack some info
[06:35] <azeem> raphink: which part?
[06:35] <raphink> azeem: the download part
[06:35] <minghua> lucas: thanks.  what info do you think is lacking?
[06:35] <azeem> get-orig-source is not called by dpkg-buildpackage
[06:36] <raphink> get-orig-source
[06:36] <azeem> it is just a convenience I guess
[06:36] <raphink> then what is it?
[06:36] <raphink> a convenience?
[06:36] <lucas> minghua: the global view
[06:37] <azeem> raphink: an easy way to get the source for the maintainer
[06:37] <LaserJock> minghua: well, I think that MOTUScience could be a good example of Ubuntu contribution to Debian and having a good working relationship but I think we need more info and tools
[06:37] <raphink> hmmpf
[06:37] <lucas> but I have to write the spec for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DCT/SpecDatabase
[06:37] <raphink> ok
[06:37] <lucas> i'll have to think about it
[06:37] <azeem> raphink: the upstream source is provided as .bz2, so they need to repack it to .orig.gz anyway
[06:37] <raphink> yes
[06:38] <minghua> lucas: I am writing the "plans" part, and I will give a more general view there.  I hope you can review that again when I finsh.  Thanks.
[06:38] <minghua> LaserJock: I am doing what I can think of / capable of doing
[06:38] <lucas> ok
[06:39] <minghua> LaserJock: I'll worry about the big picture later :-)
[06:40] <LaserJock> minghua: well, *we* need to do that, perhaps we should have a MOTUScience meeting some time
[06:42] <LaserJock> but I do think in general a good motu-school session on working with Bugs would be nice
[06:44] <minghua> LaserJock: my problem is I don't have much time for planning/organizing
[06:45] <minghua> LaserJock: I want to do this because (1) I want to make MOTUScience a good example of Ubuntu-Debian collaboration, and this help that goal; and (2) I want to learn using usertags of Debian BTS
[06:45] <LaserJock> minghua: well, I think I can do a fair amount of that, but I need to get feedback and info from those smarter than myself ( especially on the Debian side)
[06:45] <pef> hello
[06:45] <minghua> LaserJock: I'll write what I did and what others can benefit to motu-science list
[06:46] <minghua> LaserJock: then let's see if other people like my idea / what I've done
[06:46] <LaserJock> minghua: ok, I gotta push out some attempt at least of Packaging Guide today for the docteam but I will also try to put together some thoughts about MOTUScience
[06:46] <LaserJock> minghua: sounds good
[06:47] <minghua> LaserJock: no hurries :-)  If you feel the work with docteam is more important, by all means concentrate on that
[06:47] <LaserJock> but already the package lists I made have been useful
[06:48] <LaserJock> since I got them going we have been able to fix a few packages, get ITPs, found out we need to remove a couple.
[06:48] <LaserJock> and now I can see what packages we can sync/merge without breaking UVF
[06:50] <LaserJock> we had 9 packages (out of ~450 I think) that were in Ubuntu but not in Debian, shortly we will have only 2-4 and we have added 4 new packages to Debian
[06:51] <bddebian> Nice
[06:53] <LaserJock> But it wasn't terribly hard, I just needed to be able to see what was going on. (Thanks lucas for mdt)
[06:58] <LaserJock> I really think the big thing is working with our differences in release and maintaintership
[06:59] <LaserJock> there are times when we need to do things fast (UVF for example) and Debian doesn't have that pressure. In debian, for the most part, as long as all the DDs do there job everything is in good shape.
[06:59] <LaserJock> but in Ubuntu, a package can get neglected pretty easily if a DD is not taking care of it because of our team maintainership
[07:00] <LaserJock> or if it is not in Debian
[07:01] <LaserJock> but then I'm not very knowledgable about these things and I'm just trying to figure these things out in my own mind
[07:06] <minghua> lucas: Just finished my wiki page.  Can you look at it again?  Thanks.
[07:08] <lucas> minghua: good
[07:09] <lucas> I usually like to see some keywords in bold
[07:09] <lucas> (for example, the Plans part is quite long, putting some keywords in perspective might help)
[07:09] <minghua> lucas: you mean in the "plans" part, to show the focus of my interests?
[07:09] <lucas> yes
[07:09] <minghua> lucas: will do that, thanks for the review and comments
[07:17] <minghua> some keywords / key phrases made bold
[07:19] <lucas> perfect :)
[07:48] <dholbach> See you tomorrow - bye!
[07:48] <LaserJock> hmm, if xchat-gnome had better handling of the user list I'd be inclined to use it :(
[07:48] <LaserJock> dholbach: cya
[07:49] <bddebian> Later dholbach
[07:59] <Kyral> minghua isn't a memeber?
[08:00] <Seveas> raphink, poke
[08:00] <LaserJock> Kyral: guess not
[08:00] <Kyral> daamn
[08:00] <Kyral> now I have 3 people I'm vouching for lol
[08:02] <LaserJock> Kyral: CC is in 2 hours right?
[08:02] <crimsun> 1 hr
[08:03] <crimsun> hmph, 2 hrs, but fridge reports 1 hr
[08:05] <Kyral> LaserJock: I think its variabl
[08:05] <LaserJock> crimsun: cause it is 1hr and 55 min which it takes as 1hr
[08:06] <crimsun> silly rounding
[08:06] <LaserJock> yep
[08:06] <LaserJock> Kyral: what do you mean variable?
[08:06] <Kyral> like whenever they are done they are done :P
[08:07] <LaserJock> Kyral: I was just trying to figure out when it started
[08:07] <LaserJock> thank goodness for "date -u"
[08:13] <minghua> Kyral: no, not yet
[08:15] <crimsun> I'm happy to vouch for you
[08:16] <crimsun> though I think your current scim (both in Debian and in Ubuntu) work speaks for itself
[08:16] <minghua> crimsun: great, thanks!
[08:16] <minghua> Kyral: and thank you for vouching for me too
[08:18] <minghua> I would hope so, but I think CC usually take MOTU's opinion seriously if I am going to touch universe packages
[08:18] <minghua> and it's never bad to have advocates :-)
[08:20] <Kyral> lol
[08:20] <LaserJock> minghua: becoming a member isn't too tough, I think the TB is much tougher on MOTU candidates
[08:20] <LaserJock> minghua: basically, if youv'e been working on Ubuntu for >= 2 months membership isn't too bad
[08:21] <Kyral> Look at the cute puppy NOW! ;P
[08:21] <Kyral> http://azuredream.homelinux.org/blog/
[08:23] <LaserJock> Kyral: lol, my wife would love that dog
[08:23] <Kyral> He never stops lol
[08:29] <minghua> cute puppy
[08:29] <minghua> LaserJock: yeah, I can imagine, but I plan to apply for MOTU soon, too
[08:29] <minghua> it won't hurt to try, I suppose
[08:30] <minghua> and at least they would tell me which area I should do more
[08:30] <LaserJock> I'm thinking about it as well
[08:30] <\sh> raphink: why didn't you update debian/control.in to use automake1.9 in kboincspy-cvs?
[08:31] <Kyral> I'm not ready to be MOTU
[08:32] <Kyral> pfft
[08:32] <\sh> bddebian: wasn't, barry, wasn't..you are already one :) and I hope you will rock during dapper+1 again :)
[08:32] <LaserJock> Kyral: I'm not sure if I am but it would be at least good to see where I am at.
[08:32] <Kyral> lol
[08:33] <Kyral> LaserJock: I plan to try during Dapper + 1
[08:33] <Kyral> Right now I'm glad GTKEdit is in Dapper now
[08:34] <bddebian> \sh: I was but now I suck :'-(
[08:34] <LaserJock> I have always looked at it this way, when not being a MOTU is getting in the way of me getting work done then maybe it is time to become a MOTU
[08:35] <LaserJock> I think I am starting to get to that point in some areas (mostly in MOTUScience)
[08:35] <\sh> bddebian: hey, easy, call a lawyer, tell him you want to be getting divorced, and you are not the father of those children, and actually, you don't want your job either...the lawyer can help *lol*
[08:35] <ajmitch_> morning all
[08:35] <LaserJock> hi ajmitch_
[08:35] <tseng> hi ajmitch_
[08:35] <\sh> bddebian: after this call, you will have a lot of time for MOTU, i mean, no fun anymore, but time for MOTU :)
[08:35] <bddebian> \sh: Heh, I wish :-)
[08:36] <bddebian> The job part anyway
[08:36] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch_
[08:36] <ajmitch_> \sh: well that's about where I am at the moment ;)
[08:36] <ajmitch_> \sh: thanks for the qt4 upload ;)
[08:37] <\sh> well...I was sitting today, the first time since >1 month, in an office again...and it was good to have people around me...and I was more productive somehow for motu since the last couple of weeks
[08:37] <ajmitch_> \sh: now I should be able to grab it before the tutorial in ~90min
[08:37] <\sh> ajmitch_: which tutorial?
[08:37] <ajmitch_> http://lca2006.linux.org.au/abstract.php?id=379
[08:39] <\sh> ajmitch_: that's more then cool...is anybody recording it on tape or digital as mpg?
[08:39] <ajmitch_> yes
[08:39] <\sh> ajmitch_: much cooler...
[08:40] <ajmitch_> all going to a nice 5TB RAID box :)
[08:40] <\sh> ajmitch_: I would be in need of this session somehow...and my wish is to attend it...it could be very interesting :)
[08:40] <ajmitch_> it should be online in a few days, I guess
[08:40] <\sh> but sadly I'm nut in dunedin :(
[08:41] <\sh> i'm not even
[08:41] <\sh> not nut :)
[08:42] <ajmitch_> well... ;)
[08:42] <LaserJock> +1 :-)
[08:43] <tseng> you know pappy
[08:43] <tseng> of course you are
[08:44] <\sh> tseng: bah...thx
[08:44] <ajmitch_> hehe
[08:44] <ajmitch_> ok, time for me to get back down to the conference
[08:45] <\sh> tseng: this comparison .... *beserk&
[08:46] <\sh> killall -9 tseng
[08:46] <tseng> hm
[08:46] <\sh> mv /been/tseng /dev/null *harhar* :)
[08:46] <bddebian> heh
[08:47] <\sh> tseng: you can't compare me with pappy :) please :) Now I'm crying
[08:47] <tseng> it was a joke
[08:48] <\sh> tseng: come on....don't you see my invisible ;)
[08:49] <tseng> ja
[08:50] <bddebian> Who is pappy?
[08:50] <tseng> he is a nut
[08:51] <bddebian> So am I, so what are you saying? :)
[08:51] <tseng> you arent in the same weight class
[08:52] <bddebian> I have just been a fucking worthless nut for dapper :'-(
[08:52] <\sh> bddebian: believe me you are not :) because of this guy I had a muzzle on #ubuntu-devel
[08:53] <\sh> bddebian: directly from mdz...that was I think before my time being a member or motu...I don't remember anymore
[08:53] <bddebian> :-)
[08:53] <bddebian> They just ignore me on -devel ;-)
[08:54] <minghua> bddebian: you are not, I still saw your changelog entries when I did merging for dapper :-)
[08:59] <bddebian> So what can/should I be working on if I get time? :-)
[09:00] <ogra> bugs and reviews
[09:02] <bddebian> Are merges all done?
[09:02] <crimsun> 99%
[09:03] <crimsun> all the ones I've touched that don't need a newer upstream are done, at least
[09:04] <bddebian> crimsun: Because you ROCK honey :-)
[09:04] <crimsun> we all do :-)
[09:07] <crimsun> bah, you had excess from breezy ;-)
[09:10] <Kyral> I'll be back in time for the Meeting
[09:13] <sivang> Kyral: MOTU meeting I suppose?
[09:13] <LaserJock> sivang: CC
[09:40] <\sh> hmmm...anyone here with breezy?
[09:40] <\sh> and have to time to check https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/29453 ?
[09:40] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 29453: "Installing programs" Fix req. for: Ubuntu, Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: Unconfirmed
[09:42] <bddebian> Sorry, Dapper only :-(
[09:43] <minghua> hehe, that's the problem of a dev team :-)
[09:43] <minghua> I have a few bugs I would like to test on breezy too
[09:43] <minghua> maybe I'll install one after feature freeze
[09:43] <LaserJock> I have a breezy chroot
[09:45] <LaserJock> although now AMD64
[09:45] <LaserJock> s/now/no/
[09:46] <\sh> LaserJock: doesn't matter can you try it? I would have to regenerate my breezy i386 chroot frst
[09:46] <LaserJock> \sh: I'll see what I can do
[09:47] <LaserJock> \sh: I just need to install lilypond?
[09:47] <\sh> lilypond-data and look postinst message
[09:51] <LaserJock> \sh: ok I did "sudo apt-get install lilypond" and I don't get any error for lilypond-data (2.2.6-2)
[09:51] <LaserJock> \sh: I just get : Running /usr/bin/mktexlsr /usr/share/texmf...
[09:51] <LaserJock> mktexlsr: Updating /var/lib/texmf/ls-R-TEXMFMAIN...
[09:51] <LaserJock> mktexlsr: Done.
[09:51] <LaserJock>  GNU LilyPond configuration completed.
[09:51] <LaserJock>  Please read /usr/share/doc/lilypond/README.Debian to get started.
[09:53] <\sh> LaserJock: grmp...then I have to regenerate my breezy chroots...give me a couple of mins
[10:38] <\sh> slomo: ping
[10:39] <\sh> or anyone else: did anyone tried to play matroska files with vlc?
[10:39] <Kyral> I have
[10:39] <\sh> and?
[10:39] <Kyral> you need libmatroska
[10:39] <Kyral> or somesuch
[10:40] <\sh> we have libmatroska-dev with static libs..and vlc is compiled to support it...but it breaks with a nice glibc message
[10:40] <Kyral> oh
[10:40] <Kyral> haven't tried recently ;P
[10:40] <\sh> trying to recompile :)
[10:40] <Kyral> It worked a couple months ago though
[11:06] <\sh> slomo: I'm trying to get vlc buildable again (removing xlibs-static-pic)
[11:09] <\sh> .oO(but some rationale why vlc needs a gcc-snapshot and not the normal toolchain gcc?)
[11:18] <minghua> nothing written in the changelog?
[11:21] <\sh> Build-depend on gcc-snapshot on i386 and amd64, because currently only
[11:21] <\sh>       that version of gcc properly builds some of the MMX modules.
[11:21] <\sh> minghua: changelog says:
[11:23] <minghua> hmm, interesting
[11:23] <minghua> it better be a recent changelog
[11:24] <minghua> as the version of gcc-snapshots keeps changing
[11:24] <\sh> minghua: 20 sep 2005
[11:24] <minghua> fair enough then, sounds the debian maintainer has a good reason
[11:26] <\sh> minghua: when I build it now, and tested it, I will try tomorrow to build it with just our toolchain compiler suite...until slomo will say something else...because he is my expert in things like video / sound packages ;)
[11:28] <minghua> \sh: sure, I would like to see it use gcc instead of gcc-snapshot, too
[11:30] <\sh> minghua: sure..right now I'm fixing some other bugs like missing mozilla-dev or something like this
[11:30] <\sh> build run no. 2
[11:53] <Kyral> Drinks on Tonio_
[11:53] <Kyral> ;P
[11:53] <Tonio_> hehe, thanks Kyral ;)
[11:54] <Kyral> So when MOTU :P
[11:55] <LaserJock> minghua: one last upload before CC? ;-)
[11:56] <minghua> LaserJock: from me?
[11:56] <minghua> LaserJock: ah, somebody else asked for the sync :-)
[11:58] <ogra_> finally
[11:58] <ogra_> i was waiting for it already, i asked on UVF day and elmo didnt have your mail address :)
[11:58] <Kyral> minghua you should get in easy as well
[11:59] <minghua> Oh ogra it's you, thanks a lot
[11:59] <minghua> now I should go write the scim-tables UVF exception report :-)
[12:00] <ogra_> yeah