/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/01/31/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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Burgworkoh, joy now automatix is on the front page of digg02:10
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robotgeekBurgwork: oh noes02:15
Burgworkmeh, Ubuntu is pretty much on digg at least twice a day currently02:15
robotgeeknow i have to go there and tell the people about the evils of automatix02:16
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robotgeekBurgwork: i created an account and posted there,lol. i generally only do slashdot02:25
Burgworkhttp://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/01/25/army.study.ap/index.html <-- take  look at the guy in the middle of hte picture, next to the black chick02:26
robotgeeklol02:27
robotgeekanyways, back to "real" work. i will get to the wiki things later in the night, Burgwork 02:28
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jsgotangcoBurgwork: do you know any good mediawiki skins?02:56
Burgworkjsgotangco, the novell people have nice ones, but no idea as to the license03:02
jsgotangcoahh03:03
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Lizhello all03:51
Burgworklong time, no see Liz 03:51
Lizxmas holidays..gotta hate them.. :/03:52
Lizplus ive been busy packing03:52
Lizits good to see you again Burgwork 03:52
jsgotangcoLiz: are you back home?03:53
Liznot yet..we dont leave here for another 3 weeks yet..03:53
Burgworkwhere are you moving to?03:54
Liznew zealand03:55
Lizso im going to be offline till my pc arrives..and we get internet access there03:55
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tehwaQuick question, is there currently any support from documentation writers to modify the current Documentation of Applications such as gnomebaker on Ubuntu to be targeted towards ubuntu users specifically?05:56
tehwaThat is for example, to modify the way that gnomebaker is started in the docs (command line: gnomebaker) to ubuntu style (Applications,Soundand Video, gnomebaker)05:56
tehwais there any way that these docs could have a seperate version for inclusion in an Ubuntu release?05:57
LaserJockI don't think there is support for that now. I think the best we have is the Desktop Starter Guide05:59
tehwaah, ok05:59
LaserJockbut we don't change the documentation that comes with apps06:00
LaserJockthat I know of anyway06:00
jsgotangcothat's upstream work06:06
tehwaunderstood06:07
jsgotangcoeven the gnome user guide doesn't delve on specific apps06:07
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robotgeekhey Madpilot 07:34
Madpilothi robotgeek - what's up?07:34
robotgeekMadpilot: nothing much, drunk after quite a while :)07:36
Madpilotheh. I'm on ASA for a headache, can't drink this evening :(07:36
robotgeekASA?07:37
Madpilotpainkiller drug - like Asprin07:38
robotgeekah, okay07:38
Madpilotcan't remember the actual long name07:39
robotgeekwhat's up with Digg doing lame stories like "How to install Firefox 1.5 on Ubuntu" with a link to Ubuntu's wiki page on Firefox 1.5?07:39
Madpilotcould this be because Digg sucks? :P07:40
robotgeekyeah, i prefer slash. today they also had an article linking to Autoatix07:40
mptand it's ok if "slash" does it and not if Digg does?07:41
MadpilotI've never been a fan of Digg, and I only go to /. sporadically07:41
Madpilot /. is only worth reading for the (+5 Funny) comments07:42
robotgeeki go to slash daily, mostly for the comments 07:42
mptIf tips and tricks for Ubuntu are being front-paged on a site that's hardly even geeky, that's excellent news IMO07:42
MadpilotDigg is still fairly geeky07:43
robotgeeki don't get it at all, it's there for the taking on the Ubuntu wiki, a Ubuntu documentation specific site. PPl who are going to post there are going to be ppl who have used the wiki, anyways i think07:44
mptIn contrast a much more interesting story about Red Hat has been submitted six times in the past three days, and hasn't reached nearly the same level of popularity07:45
mptIt just shows that (a) Ubuntu is popular, and (b) it's not keeping as up-to-date as many people want07:45
robotgeektrue, but that's the deal you get with Ubuntu. You have the backports or so if you want to try the bleeding edge stuff. Or install Dapper07:46
mptSaying "that's the deal you get" doesn't change what people want :-)07:47
mptAnyway, I've been to the forums about twice in the past year07:47
mptand it wouldn't surprise me if many people who frequent the forums don't know the wiki well07:47
robotgeeki go there everyday. i have filtered out the Community talk forums. Also, i find it difficult to use the forum markup, but that doesn't stop me from helping people.07:48
robotgeekpeople ask the same questions over and over again, i just point them to the wiki07:49
robotgeekthey have some nice threads there, but i don't get to lean much there :(07:50
robotgeeklearn, err07:50
robotgeekhey Madpilot , did you ask a question on the forums? :) if so, use dhclient07:51
Madpilotthe IP release/renew question? that was me07:52
Madpilotthanks, I'll look at dhclient07:52
robotgeekifup and ifdown rely on /etc/network/interfaces, not so using dhclient07:52
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=== robotgeek believes the wiki is much easier :). /me will stop talking now :)
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Madpilothi Burgundavia 08:12
robotgeekhey Burgundavia 08:12
Burgundaviasalut robotgeek Madpilot 08:25
mdkeBurgundavia, did you see my attempt at putting the faqguide on the wiki?09:49
Burgundaviamdke, nope09:50
mdkehttp://help.ubuntu.com/wiki/FaqGuide209:50
mdkeit needs some work ;)09:51
Burgundaviayes, but a good start09:51
Burgundaviamy thought would be each major section could a page09:51
jsgotangco:/09:51
Burgundaviasubpage, with the section name as the page name09:51
mdkeBurgundavia, i don't see how you can do that09:51
mdkenot as html09:51
mdkethe interlinks won't work09:51
mdkei would have thought the page theming can be cleared up, but I can't see anything but single-page only working09:52
BurgundaviaI am certain we could build a script to do it, but it is not worth it for the first pass at least09:52
mdkeoh shit I know why the theming is all screwed up09:55
mdkeit's using the wiki css _and_ the faqguide css09:55
mdkethat should be quite easy to fix09:55
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jjessemorning jsgotangco 03:53
jsgotangcojjesse: hey03:54
jjessei didn't like how that switching guide i wrote looked so i'm totally re-writing it, don't even know if we can use it but thought what the hey...03:54
jsgotangcojjesse: hmmm does riddell apply some more css to the html when done?03:54
jjessejsgotangco: usually he has the super secret kubuntu css or something like that so it looks like releasenotes03:55
jsgotangcojjesse: we can always release a doc even after release anyways03:55
jsgotangcoswitching guide = migration?03:55
jjesseyeah switching your friend from windows to kubuntu03:56
jsgotangcommm our svn is still big :/03:56
=== jsgotangco is in a fresh dapper install
jsgotangcobut it seems our kubuntu dapper has *serious* networking issues03:56
jjesseriddell found a website that had the guide on and got permission to use it in the docs, but i've made a ton of changes from what is on the webiste03:56
=== robotgeek is upgrading right now, hope everything works out
jsgotangcosure it does03:57
jsgotangcobut kcontrol doesn't even remember the network settings :/03:57
jjesserobotgeek: go really crazy and put kde 3.5.1 on it03:57
jsgotangcoits really irrittating03:57
robotgeekjjesse: just updating dapper won't give me that?03:58
jjessejsgotangco: i'm using vmplayer per the doc mgalvin put together to run my dapper install03:58
jjesserobotgeek: nope need to add the repository for it03:58
jjessehttp://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/kde351-dapper-testing/03:58
jsgotangcorobotgeek: nope03:59
jsgotangcowe're sticking to 3.503:59
robotgeekjjesse: i am only updating for the guide, so i think i'll pass :)03:59
robotgeekif 3.5.1 is going to be on the final dapper, i will upgrade, else no04:00
jsgotangcorobotgeek: i don't think so, we're already UVF04:00
jsgotangcounless we get some stroke of sabdfl push :)04:01
jjessejsgotangco: i think riddell just want some feedback on it04:01
jjesseso i'm helping him out04:01
robotgeekjsgotangco: hmm, okay. i also have to purge .kde 04:01
jsgotangco3.5.1?04:01
jsgotangcojjesse: i can afford to break this machine just in case04:02
robotgeekjjesse: i'm going to be putting dapper on a usb this weekend, i'll upgrade to 3.5.1 on that one04:03
robotgeekmaybe i should also help out with the laptop testing report04:04
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robotgeeknice, Kubuntu on dapper is noob-friendly!04:31
robotgeeki file dapper bugs on malone, right04:38
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jsgotangcorobotgeek: i'm grabbing kde 3.5.1 now05:13
robotgeekjsgotangco: nice. looks like i am going to have to file a bug on the "NetworkSettings" screen, i can't click the administrator buttong05:13
robotgeeki'm filling out a laptoptesting report right now05:14
jsgotangcorobotgeek: dapper?05:15
robotgeekboth breezy and dapper, since i have both installed05:16
jjesseok back from giving blood05:17
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robotgeekdamn, the kde-systemsettings bug almost makes it impossible to do gui anything. 07:31
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robotgeekhey LaserJock 07:38
LaserJockhi robotgeek 07:39
robotgeeki've been busy doing LaptopTesting and reporting bugs07:40
LaserJockcoo;07:40
LaserJockcool, I mean :-)07:40
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mdkeevening all09:10
LaserJockhi mdke 09:10
mdkey009:11
LaserJockhow's it going?09:11
mdkewell, you?09:12
LaserJockalright, busy though09:12
mdkeme too, in a good kinda way09:17
LaserJockI'm working on the packaging guide but real life is busy as well09:17
mdkei saw a fat commit from you :)09:17
mdkei even blogged about you and the packaging guide09:18
LaserJockoh no09:19
LaserJockwhere?09:19
mdkeheh09:19
mdkeits on planet09:19
LaserJockoh cool09:21
LaserJockIt wasn't ready for planet but I'll hopefully get it up to speed09:21
mdkecourse its ready09:21
mdkepeople can help if they like :)09:21
LaserJockwell, that is why I committed it09:21
LaserJockI really don't want it to be just my project. I want to get lots of people involved09:22
mdkethat's cool09:22
mdkemotu can chip in, thecore is helping09:22
LaserJockyeah, that's my hope09:22
LaserJockMOTU is getting some good wiki material that I hope to incorporate into the packaging guide09:23
mdkeoh good09:23
mdkelooks like we might have a new contributors on the desktopguide too, I hope so09:24
LaserJockI think we have a decent chance of making the Ubuntu Packaging Guide  the best .deb packaging resource available out there09:24
mdkewow09:25
mdkethat would be SERIOUSLY cool09:25
LaserJockI mean, I've been asking MOTUs and others for their packaging resources and trying to incorporate the info in a hopefully easy and example based guide09:26
LaserJockthat is my hope anyway09:26
LaserJockbut it is a *lot* of work09:26
BurgworkLaserJock, example based is good. I have beat my head against the new maintainers guide enough09:27
=== mdke nods
=== robotgeek will be needing the packaging guide in a while
LaserJockBurgwork: yeah, I'm trying to go beyond the NMG but without dumbing it down so that it is useless. In the beginning I think it might look overwhelming.09:28
LaserJockI am trying to put as much material as I can in, and then we can weed out stuff we don't need09:28
BurgworkLaserJock,  good example would be adding a .desktop file09:28
LaserJockBurgwork: good idea, I'm also collecting a "common mistakes" section09:28
BurgworkLaserJock, another would be a basic python program09:29
robotgeekLaserJock: also about dependencies, do we put in the highest dependencies for a program?09:29
LaserJockI'm hoping once I get the ball rolling we can add more and more material09:29
Burgworkis it just me, or there about 19 different ways to package for .deb?09:29
robotgeek:)09:29
LaserJockexactly09:29
LaserJockthat is one of the biggest problems I face09:30
LaserJockthere is no *single* way to package09:30
Burgworkediting any package that already exists means that you need to know each way09:30
Burgworkand it means you cnanot look at a number of packages to get examples09:30
LaserJockexactly, that's why I'm setting up different scenarios that show each of the major ways 09:30
Burgworkare rpms easier to create?09:31
LaserJockI think they are but I've never tries09:31
LaserJocks/tries/tried09:31
BurgworkI think some people in debian that the fact that it is harder to package for .deb is a good thing, because it means you get higher quality packages, because it weeds out the stupid people09:32
LaserJockanother problem for me right now is that sometime (hopefully for Dapper) Diziet will have a Ubuntu Developer's Reference that is based on the Debian Developer's Reference09:32
LaserJockBurgwork: well, it's not easy for sure, but if you have patience I think it is worth while09:33
BurgworkI don;t think I am dumb person, but .deb packaging has me totally stumped09:34
LaserJockI'm fairly new  to packaging myself09:34
LaserJockin the beginning it is very confusing09:34
LaserJockpartially because there is no one way to do any task09:35
robotgeeki'm going through each chapter of DNMG right now :)09:35
LaserJockand partially because the documentation is scattered and abstract09:35
robotgeekthere is no shorcut out, heh09:35
LaserJockI (and other's I have talked to) found the Appedicies of the DNMG to be the most helpful09:36
LaserJockand that isn't the way a Guide should be09:36
LaserJockNow as I'm trying to write a Packaging Guide, I can see where they were coming from. There is so much to learn, how do you be complete without overwhelming the reader.09:37
LaserJockwhat I'm shooting for is to use an incremental approach with specific targeted examples.09:39
LaserJockI'm not sure how realistic that is, but  I think it's worth a shot09:39
robotgeeki think that would be great, some hand holding would help, i think :)09:39
robotgeeki think i picked a pretty tough package for my first attempt, i think it will help09:40
LaserJockrobotgeek: yes, you did pick a tough one09:40
LaserJockrobotgeek: I actually started out by patching packages that already existed. I saw how other people packaged.09:41
mdkeLaserJock, how is diziet's guide going to be a problem?09:42
robotgeeki don't have to turn it in tommorow. the whole of MOTU will be busy right now, i guess09:42
LaserJockmdke: the problem is that his doc is a reference, and mine is a guide but there is a fair amount of grey area09:43
mdkehmm09:44
robotgeekLaserJock: Universe Packages aren't affected by the feature freeze, or are they?09:44
mdkedid you talk to him?09:44
LaserJockmdke: he hasn't started on the Ubuntu Developer's Reference so I really don't know how far into the reference arena I should go09:44
mdkerobotgeek, don't forget the docs :(09:44
LaserJockmdke: I talked to him a little bit but his is much to busy with other things09:44
robotgeekmdke: no, it's just 5 packages. i'm not going anywhere09:44
mdke:)09:44
mdkeLaserJock, don't give up on talking to him tho09:45
robotgeekmdke: plus, i got dapper installed today. hopefully, i shud be churning stuff out by the end of the week09:45
mdkeyay09:45
LaserJockrobotgeek: for Dapper, Universe is bound to the same timeline as Main so UVF and FF are the same09:45
robotgeekLaserJock: so it's kind of useless for me to build these packages right away?09:46
LaserJockrobotgeek: you can get them in up until Feature Freeze09:46
robotgeeki tht that was done already?09:46
LaserJockno that was Upstream Version Freeze09:46
LaserJockFF is ~ Feb 23rd09:47
robotgeekokay, i better hurry :)09:47
mdkeLaserJock, do you want someone else to speak to him about it?09:47
LaserJockbut you can get them into Debian at any time and we will just get them into Dapper+1 if you aren't fast enough ;-)09:47
LaserJockmdke: I don't know that it's a big deal at this point. I mean, if I go too far into the Reference area he can just take my material09:48
mdkealrighty09:48
robotgeeki think i'll manage to build one of these beasts today. i just need to check up on the depends correctly. they have very decent configures, so i don't think i will have to do too much09:49
LaserJockmdke: that is a big reason why we need the packaging guide to be GPL09:49
LaserJockmdke: all the Debian developer docs are GPL and the Ubuntu Developer's Reference will be GPL as well09:49
mdkeyah09:50
mdkeno problem09:50
LaserJockI've been watching the Dapper Development Status reports on ubuntu-devel-announce and it has a listing of all the spec's and there status09:51
LaserJockand so under Diziet it has the status of the UDR09:51
LaserJockand so far every week it just says "Not started yet"09:51
mdkeyeah09:52
LaserJockI offered once to help but I might bug him again shortly09:52
mdkeokies09:52
LaserJockbut our TZs don't work well ;-)09:52
mdkeok09:53
mdkei'm in his timezone, so if you want me to have a word, say so09:53
LaserJockok thanks09:53
LaserJockonce I get something real maybe I'll have him take a look09:53
mdkecool09:53
LaserJockbut it is quite hard to have a guide withough tons of reference material, I'm still not sure how to structure that09:54
LaserJockhowever, right now I'm just trying to get as much material as I can. It's easier to weed stuff out and rearrange later09:56
mdkeok09:56
mdkeyou think you'll have it ready-ish for dapper?09:56
LaserJockI am totally committed to having a workable packaging guide for dapper09:57
mdkethat would rock09:58
LaserJockIt might not have as much as I want but I think it should be done in the sense that it isn't missing parts09:58
LaserJockI see this as an ongoing project but I think we should have the basics for dapper09:59
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LaserJockbut that said, I've never done anything like this before so I could be totally wrong ;-) but I don't think so10:01
mdkesounds all good to me10:02
mdkewho knows how to subscribe to multiple pages in Moin with a wildcard?10:05
LaserJockI do it for MOTU10:06
LaserJockdo .*10:06
Madpilot* is the standard wildcard, isn't it?10:06
LaserJocklike I do MOTU.*10:07
Madpilotif you're really brave/insane you can just put * in your Subscribe field, and get the whole damn wiki... :P10:07
mdkeI tried DocumentationTeam/*, you think DocumentationTeam/.* will work?10:07
LaserJockyeah10:07
Burgworkrobotgeek, ping10:08
LaserJockI think something changed at some point, I used to just use * but then it stopped working and I had to use .* (which is what a regexp whould look like, I think)10:08
robotgeekhey Burgwork 10:08
Burgworkrobotgeek, did you not work on WifiDocs?10:08
robotgeekBurgwork: no, still working offline on the ndiswrapper stuff10:09
Burgworkrobotgeek, someone nuked with WifiDocs page10:09
robotgeekBurgwork: hmm, like what? 10:09
MadpilotBurgwork: no they didn't - they nuked WiFiDocs - note difference in capitaliztion10:10
BurgworkMadpilot, ah10:10
Burgworkgrumble10:10
robotgeekBurgwork: scared me for a moment :)10:10
Burgworkhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiBroadcomDriver <-- more useless crap, grumble some more10:10
=== Burgwork is a cheery mood today
mdkerobotgeek, you can always restore nuked pages10:11
robotgeeklol, Waiting for JackDog10:11
robotgeekmdke: yeah, i tht i messed up along the way somewhere :)10:11
mdkebtw I don't like the name WifiDocs10:13
mdkesomething without Docs in the title would be nice, iMO10:13
MadpilotWiFiHowto?10:14
robotgeekheh, i asked around the other night. 10:15
robotgeekMadpilot: WiFiHowto is already a Howto :)10:15
mdke"Wireless"10:17
BurgworkWirelessHowto10:17
mdkeHowto is kinda as bad as Docs, I reckon10:17
mdkeactually, no not as bad10:18
robotgeek*sniff*10:18
mdkelol10:18
Burgworkrobotgeek, that involves a lot of moving for you10:18
Burgwork;)10:18
mdkeso Burgwork, how many documentation pages are there which aren't tagged with CategoryDocumentation, do you think?10:18
robotgeekBurgwork: if i redirect the main page, it won't do the subpages?10:19
mdkerobotgeek, no10:19
robotgeekoh noes10:19
Burgworkmdke, very few. search for -redirect -categorydocumentation in text search10:19
mdkeBurgwork, that's good news10:19
Burgworkmdke, and -category10:19
mdkeperhaps the script option is a good one for BetterWikiDocs10:19
Burgworkmdke, I am certain we can use a script10:20
mdkei mean for moving the pages10:20
Burgworkyes, so did I10:20
mdkeah10:20
Burgworksweet, when at help.ubuntu.com, we can actually have useful categories10:20
mdkeyes10:21
mdkewe can discuss those later along the line10:21
=== Burgwork starts dancing with joy
mdkethe moin 1.5 WYSIWYG editor is quite nice, be cool if we can get them to upgrade10:23
BurgworkI wasn't much of a fan, but hey, to each there own10:24
Burgworkat least it exists10:24
Burgworkmdke, what do you think about adding a Help tab to the main ubuntu site?10:25
mdkeyou mean rename "support"?10:25
Burgworkthat might work10:25
Burgworkbut support is slightly different than help10:25
Burgworkhttp://www.subuntu.com/subuntu.shtml <-- hmm10:31
Burgworkhttp://digg.com/linux_unix/Using_Ubuntu_to_help_Detroit_youth <-- part of my evil plan to bring even more Ubuntu to digg10:33
robotgeekwell, i gotta go to to heaven on earth, Fry's. Cya all later10:34
Burgworkrobotgeek_away, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PageHits <-- WiFi howto is already number 7 in popularity10:45
Burgworks/7/1510:45
mdkegah why the hell is StartSeite number 510:46
mdkeoh it's not a moin page, it's an Ubuntu localised page, nice10:47
Burgworkmdke, will we be able to nuke that Help stuff that moin spews into the main namespace?10:51
Burgworkmdke, and there is a hack to allow for userpages on a differnt wiki, thoughts?10:52
mdkeBurgwork, all pages can be nuked10:52
mdkeuserpages can stay on the main wiki i think10:52
mdkeotherwise it will get complicated10:52
Burgworkok, glad we agree on this10:53
mdkewhile I like the idea of having a separate one, it will confuse the users i think10:53
Burgworkmdke, I mean the main wiki, not a seperate one10:53
mdkeoh10:53
Burgworki wish moin had more robust communication tools10:53
mdkeinterwiki works10:54
mdkehttp://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/MatthewEast10:56
mdke(bottom section)10:56
mdkeor #REDIRECT10:57
Burgworkyep, I see that10:58
mdke#REFRESH i mean10:58
Burgworkmdke, I have controversational suggestion for once we switch11:18
Burgworkmdke, lets jump to mediawiki style markup11:19
=== Burgwork also wants to drop camelcase and freelinking, but that is another fight to be fought
LaserJockffewww, I made my commit for the day :-)11:40
BurgworkLaserJock, my suggestion, make smaller commits. It makes them easier to rollback, etc. if something breaks between one commit and the nexty11:41
crimsunlots of small commits == good11:41
LaserJockBurgwork: yeah, I've been trying to figure out what the best size is.11:41
LaserJockI'm very new to revision control11:42
BurgworkLaserJock, each commit should have a complete edit in it, but not much more11:42
BurgworkLaserJock, it should always work between commits11:42
LaserJockwell, the problem right now is that I'm trying to commit by section and since I'm writing it from scratch basically the commits are big11:43
LaserJockmaybe I should commit by subsection11:43
LaserJock;-)11:43
LaserJockcrimsun: btw, It would be reallly nice if you could look over the packaging guide sometime11:44
crimsunLaserJock: url?11:44
crimsun(sorry, lazy/meeting)11:45
LaserJockits in the doc team repo generic/packagingguide/C/11:50
LaserJockand its on doc.ubuntu.com but that takes some time to update11:51
crimsunok, I'll look in the repo11:51
LaserJockcrimsun: thanks11:51
LaserJockmdke: btw is it ok to change the GPL license XML?11:52
LaserJockmdke: the structure makes the HTML look bad11:53

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