=== lambert [n=todd@c-24-125-47-253.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:10] oh, joy now automatix is on the front page of digg === robotgeek_zzz is now known as robotgeek [02:15] Burgwork: oh noes [02:15] meh, Ubuntu is pretty much on digg at least twice a day currently [02:16] now i have to go there and tell the people about the evils of automatix === manicka [n=manicka@203-158-43-234.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:25] Burgwork: i created an account and posted there,lol. i generally only do slashdot [02:26] http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/01/25/army.study.ap/index.html <-- take look at the guy in the middle of hte picture, next to the black chick [02:27] lol [02:28] anyways, back to "real" work. i will get to the wiki things later in the night, Burgwork === robotgeek is now known as robotgeek_work === jsgotangco [n=jerome@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:56] Burgwork: do you know any good mediawiki skins? [03:02] jsgotangco, the novell people have nice ones, but no idea as to the license [03:03] ahh === jjesse [i=user@69-87-141-132.async.iserv.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Liz [n=Liz@static-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:51] hello all [03:51] long time, no see Liz [03:52] xmas holidays..gotta hate them.. :/ [03:52] plus ive been busy packing [03:52] its good to see you again Burgwork [03:53] Liz: are you back home? [03:53] not yet..we dont leave here for another 3 weeks yet.. [03:54] where are you moving to? [03:55] new zealand [03:55] so im going to be offline till my pc arrives..and we get internet access there === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@219-89-135-199.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=theCore@Toronto-HSE-ppp3778234.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@222-154-182-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt__ [n=mpt@219-89-133-253.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [n=Skywind@218.104.86.222] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [n=ealden@219.90.93.215] has joined #ubuntu-doc === crimsun [n=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt__ [n=mpt@219-89-133-253.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has left #ubuntu-doc ["http://mpt.net.nz/"] === jjesse [i=user@69-87-141-132.async.iserv.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === tehwa [n=tehwa@203-214-18-232.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:56] Quick question, is there currently any support from documentation writers to modify the current Documentation of Applications such as gnomebaker on Ubuntu to be targeted towards ubuntu users specifically? [05:56] That is for example, to modify the way that gnomebaker is started in the docs (command line: gnomebaker) to ubuntu style (Applications,Soundand Video, gnomebaker) [05:57] is there any way that these docs could have a seperate version for inclusion in an Ubuntu release? [05:59] I don't think there is support for that now. I think the best we have is the Desktop Starter Guide [05:59] ah, ok [06:00] but we don't change the documentation that comes with apps [06:00] that I know of anyway [06:06] that's upstream work [06:07] understood [06:07] even the gnome user guide doesn't delve on specific apps === bshumate [n=bshumate@ubuntu/member/bshumate] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=grant@203-158-43-234.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-11-87.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@222-154-181-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgeek_work is now known as robotgeek === Madpilot_ [n=ubuntu@d64-180-211-21.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot_ is now known as Madpilot [07:34] hey Madpilot [07:34] hi robotgeek - what's up? [07:36] Madpilot: nothing much, drunk after quite a while :) [07:36] heh. I'm on ASA for a headache, can't drink this evening :( [07:37] ASA? [07:38] painkiller drug - like Asprin [07:38] ah, okay [07:39] can't remember the actual long name [07:39] what's up with Digg doing lame stories like "How to install Firefox 1.5 on Ubuntu" with a link to Ubuntu's wiki page on Firefox 1.5? [07:40] could this be because Digg sucks? :P [07:40] yeah, i prefer slash. today they also had an article linking to Autoatix [07:41] and it's ok if "slash" does it and not if Digg does? [07:41] I've never been a fan of Digg, and I only go to /. sporadically [07:42] /. is only worth reading for the (+5 Funny) comments [07:42] i go to slash daily, mostly for the comments [07:42] If tips and tricks for Ubuntu are being front-paged on a site that's hardly even geeky, that's excellent news IMO [07:43] Digg is still fairly geeky [07:44] i don't get it at all, it's there for the taking on the Ubuntu wiki, a Ubuntu documentation specific site. PPl who are going to post there are going to be ppl who have used the wiki, anyways i think [07:45] In contrast a much more interesting story about Red Hat has been submitted six times in the past three days, and hasn't reached nearly the same level of popularity [07:45] It just shows that (a) Ubuntu is popular, and (b) it's not keeping as up-to-date as many people want [07:46] true, but that's the deal you get with Ubuntu. You have the backports or so if you want to try the bleeding edge stuff. Or install Dapper [07:47] Saying "that's the deal you get" doesn't change what people want :-) [07:47] Anyway, I've been to the forums about twice in the past year [07:47] and it wouldn't surprise me if many people who frequent the forums don't know the wiki well [07:48] i go there everyday. i have filtered out the Community talk forums. Also, i find it difficult to use the forum markup, but that doesn't stop me from helping people. [07:49] people ask the same questions over and over again, i just point them to the wiki [07:50] they have some nice threads there, but i don't get to lean much there :( [07:50] learn, err [07:51] hey Madpilot , did you ask a question on the forums? :) if so, use dhclient [07:52] the IP release/renew question? that was me [07:52] thanks, I'll look at dhclient [07:52] ifup and ifdown rely on /etc/network/interfaces, not so using dhclient === robotgeek can't believe that the forums are easier to navigate than the wiki === robotgeek believes the wiki is much easier :). /me will stop talking now :) === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:12] hi Burgundavia [08:12] hey Burgundavia [08:25] salut robotgeek Madpilot [09:49] Burgundavia, did you see my attempt at putting the faqguide on the wiki? [09:50] mdke, nope [09:50] http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki/FaqGuide2 [09:51] it needs some work ;) [09:51] yes, but a good start [09:51] my thought would be each major section could a page [09:51] :/ [09:51] subpage, with the section name as the page name [09:51] Burgundavia, i don't see how you can do that [09:51] not as html [09:51] the interlinks won't work [09:52] i would have thought the page theming can be cleared up, but I can't see anything but single-page only working [09:52] I am certain we could build a script to do it, but it is not worth it for the first pass at least [09:55] oh shit I know why the theming is all screwed up [09:55] it's using the wiki css _and_ the faqguide css [09:55] that should be quite easy to fix === mpt [n=mpt@219-89-137-168.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@219-89-130-58.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@219-89-132-96.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:53] morning jsgotangco [03:54] jjesse: hey [03:54] i didn't like how that switching guide i wrote looked so i'm totally re-writing it, don't even know if we can use it but thought what the hey... [03:54] jjesse: hmmm does riddell apply some more css to the html when done? [03:55] jsgotangco: usually he has the super secret kubuntu css or something like that so it looks like releasenotes [03:55] jjesse: we can always release a doc even after release anyways [03:55] switching guide = migration? [03:56] yeah switching your friend from windows to kubuntu [03:56] mmm our svn is still big :/ === jsgotangco is in a fresh dapper install [03:56] but it seems our kubuntu dapper has *serious* networking issues [03:56] riddell found a website that had the guide on and got permission to use it in the docs, but i've made a ton of changes from what is on the webiste === robotgeek is upgrading right now, hope everything works out [03:57] sure it does [03:57] but kcontrol doesn't even remember the network settings :/ [03:57] robotgeek: go really crazy and put kde 3.5.1 on it [03:57] its really irrittating [03:58] jjesse: just updating dapper won't give me that? [03:58] jsgotangco: i'm using vmplayer per the doc mgalvin put together to run my dapper install [03:58] robotgeek: nope need to add the repository for it [03:58] http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/kde351-dapper-testing/ [03:59] robotgeek: nope [03:59] we're sticking to 3.5 [03:59] jjesse: i am only updating for the guide, so i think i'll pass :) [04:00] if 3.5.1 is going to be on the final dapper, i will upgrade, else no [04:00] robotgeek: i don't think so, we're already UVF [04:01] unless we get some stroke of sabdfl push :) [04:01] jsgotangco: i think riddell just want some feedback on it [04:01] so i'm helping him out [04:01] jsgotangco: hmm, okay. i also have to purge .kde [04:01] 3.5.1? [04:02] jjesse: i can afford to break this machine just in case [04:03] jjesse: i'm going to be putting dapper on a usb this weekend, i'll upgrade to 3.5.1 on that one [04:04] maybe i should also help out with the laptop testing report === crimsun [n=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:31] nice, Kubuntu on dapper is noob-friendly! [04:38] i file dapper bugs on malone, right === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:13] robotgeek: i'm grabbing kde 3.5.1 now [05:13] jsgotangco: nice. looks like i am going to have to file a bug on the "NetworkSettings" screen, i can't click the administrator buttong [05:14] i'm filling out a laptoptesting report right now [05:15] robotgeek: dapper? [05:16] both breezy and dapper, since i have both installed [05:17] ok back from giving blood === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bshumate [n=bshumate@ubuntu/member/bshumate] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:31] damn, the kde-systemsettings bug almost makes it impossible to do gui anything. === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:38] hey LaserJock [07:39] hi robotgeek [07:40] i've been busy doing LaptopTesting and reporting bugs [07:40] coo; [07:40] cool, I mean :-) === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === manicka [n=grant@203-158-43-234.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bshumate [n=bshumate@ubuntu/member/bshumate] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:10] evening all [09:10] hi mdke [09:11] y0 [09:11] how's it going? [09:12] well, you? [09:12] alright, busy though [09:17] me too, in a good kinda way [09:17] I'm working on the packaging guide but real life is busy as well [09:17] i saw a fat commit from you :) [09:18] i even blogged about you and the packaging guide [09:19] oh no [09:19] where? [09:19] heh [09:19] its on planet [09:21] oh cool [09:21] It wasn't ready for planet but I'll hopefully get it up to speed [09:21] course its ready [09:21] people can help if they like :) [09:21] well, that is why I committed it [09:22] I really don't want it to be just my project. I want to get lots of people involved [09:22] that's cool [09:22] motu can chip in, thecore is helping [09:22] yeah, that's my hope [09:23] MOTU is getting some good wiki material that I hope to incorporate into the packaging guide [09:23] oh good [09:24] looks like we might have a new contributors on the desktopguide too, I hope so [09:24] I think we have a decent chance of making the Ubuntu Packaging Guide the best .deb packaging resource available out there [09:25] wow [09:25] that would be SERIOUSLY cool [09:26] I mean, I've been asking MOTUs and others for their packaging resources and trying to incorporate the info in a hopefully easy and example based guide [09:26] that is my hope anyway [09:26] but it is a *lot* of work [09:27] LaserJock, example based is good. I have beat my head against the new maintainers guide enough === mdke nods === robotgeek will be needing the packaging guide in a while [09:28] Burgwork: yeah, I'm trying to go beyond the NMG but without dumbing it down so that it is useless. In the beginning I think it might look overwhelming. [09:28] I am trying to put as much material as I can in, and then we can weed out stuff we don't need [09:28] LaserJock, good example would be adding a .desktop file [09:28] Burgwork: good idea, I'm also collecting a "common mistakes" section [09:29] LaserJock, another would be a basic python program [09:29] LaserJock: also about dependencies, do we put in the highest dependencies for a program? [09:29] I'm hoping once I get the ball rolling we can add more and more material [09:29] is it just me, or there about 19 different ways to package for .deb? [09:29] :) [09:29] exactly [09:30] that is one of the biggest problems I face [09:30] there is no *single* way to package [09:30] editing any package that already exists means that you need to know each way [09:30] and it means you cnanot look at a number of packages to get examples [09:30] exactly, that's why I'm setting up different scenarios that show each of the major ways [09:31] are rpms easier to create? [09:31] I think they are but I've never tries [09:31] s/tries/tried [09:32] I think some people in debian that the fact that it is harder to package for .deb is a good thing, because it means you get higher quality packages, because it weeds out the stupid people [09:32] another problem for me right now is that sometime (hopefully for Dapper) Diziet will have a Ubuntu Developer's Reference that is based on the Debian Developer's Reference [09:33] Burgwork: well, it's not easy for sure, but if you have patience I think it is worth while [09:34] I don;t think I am dumb person, but .deb packaging has me totally stumped [09:34] I'm fairly new to packaging myself [09:34] in the beginning it is very confusing [09:35] partially because there is no one way to do any task [09:35] i'm going through each chapter of DNMG right now :) [09:35] and partially because the documentation is scattered and abstract [09:35] there is no shorcut out, heh [09:36] I (and other's I have talked to) found the Appedicies of the DNMG to be the most helpful [09:36] and that isn't the way a Guide should be [09:37] Now as I'm trying to write a Packaging Guide, I can see where they were coming from. There is so much to learn, how do you be complete without overwhelming the reader. [09:39] what I'm shooting for is to use an incremental approach with specific targeted examples. [09:39] I'm not sure how realistic that is, but I think it's worth a shot [09:39] i think that would be great, some hand holding would help, i think :) [09:40] i think i picked a pretty tough package for my first attempt, i think it will help [09:40] robotgeek: yes, you did pick a tough one [09:41] robotgeek: I actually started out by patching packages that already existed. I saw how other people packaged. [09:42] LaserJock, how is diziet's guide going to be a problem? [09:42] i don't have to turn it in tommorow. the whole of MOTU will be busy right now, i guess [09:43] mdke: the problem is that his doc is a reference, and mine is a guide but there is a fair amount of grey area [09:44] hmm [09:44] LaserJock: Universe Packages aren't affected by the feature freeze, or are they? [09:44] did you talk to him? [09:44] mdke: he hasn't started on the Ubuntu Developer's Reference so I really don't know how far into the reference arena I should go [09:44] robotgeek, don't forget the docs :( [09:44] mdke: I talked to him a little bit but his is much to busy with other things [09:44] mdke: no, it's just 5 packages. i'm not going anywhere [09:44] :) [09:45] LaserJock, don't give up on talking to him tho [09:45] mdke: plus, i got dapper installed today. hopefully, i shud be churning stuff out by the end of the week [09:45] yay [09:45] robotgeek: for Dapper, Universe is bound to the same timeline as Main so UVF and FF are the same [09:46] LaserJock: so it's kind of useless for me to build these packages right away? [09:46] robotgeek: you can get them in up until Feature Freeze [09:46] i tht that was done already? [09:46] no that was Upstream Version Freeze [09:47] FF is ~ Feb 23rd [09:47] okay, i better hurry :) [09:47] LaserJock, do you want someone else to speak to him about it? [09:47] but you can get them into Debian at any time and we will just get them into Dapper+1 if you aren't fast enough ;-) [09:48] mdke: I don't know that it's a big deal at this point. I mean, if I go too far into the Reference area he can just take my material [09:48] alrighty [09:49] i think i'll manage to build one of these beasts today. i just need to check up on the depends correctly. they have very decent configures, so i don't think i will have to do too much [09:49] mdke: that is a big reason why we need the packaging guide to be GPL [09:49] mdke: all the Debian developer docs are GPL and the Ubuntu Developer's Reference will be GPL as well [09:50] yah [09:50] no problem [09:51] I've been watching the Dapper Development Status reports on ubuntu-devel-announce and it has a listing of all the spec's and there status [09:51] and so under Diziet it has the status of the UDR [09:51] and so far every week it just says "Not started yet" [09:52] yeah [09:52] I offered once to help but I might bug him again shortly [09:52] okies [09:52] but our TZs don't work well ;-) [09:53] ok [09:53] i'm in his timezone, so if you want me to have a word, say so [09:53] ok thanks [09:53] once I get something real maybe I'll have him take a look [09:53] cool [09:54] but it is quite hard to have a guide withough tons of reference material, I'm still not sure how to structure that [09:56] however, right now I'm just trying to get as much material as I can. It's easier to weed stuff out and rearrange later [09:56] ok [09:56] you think you'll have it ready-ish for dapper? [09:57] I am totally committed to having a workable packaging guide for dapper [09:58] that would rock [09:58] It might not have as much as I want but I think it should be done in the sense that it isn't missing parts [09:59] I see this as an ongoing project but I think we should have the basics for dapper === Madpilot [n=bburger@S01060011d87e447f.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:01] but that said, I've never done anything like this before so I could be totally wrong ;-) but I don't think so [10:02] sounds all good to me [10:05] who knows how to subscribe to multiple pages in Moin with a wildcard? [10:06] I do it for MOTU [10:06] do .* [10:06] * is the standard wildcard, isn't it? [10:07] like I do MOTU.* [10:07] if you're really brave/insane you can just put * in your Subscribe field, and get the whole damn wiki... :P [10:07] I tried DocumentationTeam/*, you think DocumentationTeam/.* will work? [10:07] yeah [10:08] robotgeek, ping [10:08] I think something changed at some point, I used to just use * but then it stopped working and I had to use .* (which is what a regexp whould look like, I think) [10:08] hey Burgwork [10:08] robotgeek, did you not work on WifiDocs? [10:09] Burgwork: no, still working offline on the ndiswrapper stuff [10:09] robotgeek, someone nuked with WifiDocs page [10:09] Burgwork: hmm, like what? [10:10] Burgwork: no they didn't - they nuked WiFiDocs - note difference in capitaliztion [10:10] Madpilot, ah [10:10] grumble [10:10] Burgwork: scared me for a moment :) [10:10] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiBroadcomDriver <-- more useless crap, grumble some more === Burgwork is a cheery mood today [10:11] robotgeek, you can always restore nuked pages [10:11] lol, Waiting for JackDog [10:11] mdke: yeah, i tht i messed up along the way somewhere :) [10:13] btw I don't like the name WifiDocs [10:13] something without Docs in the title would be nice, iMO [10:14] WiFiHowto? [10:15] heh, i asked around the other night. [10:15] Madpilot: WiFiHowto is already a Howto :) [10:17] "Wireless" [10:17] WirelessHowto [10:17] Howto is kinda as bad as Docs, I reckon [10:18] actually, no not as bad [10:18] *sniff* [10:18] lol [10:18] robotgeek, that involves a lot of moving for you [10:18] ;) [10:18] so Burgwork, how many documentation pages are there which aren't tagged with CategoryDocumentation, do you think? [10:19] Burgwork: if i redirect the main page, it won't do the subpages? [10:19] robotgeek, no [10:19] oh noes [10:19] mdke, very few. search for -redirect -categorydocumentation in text search [10:19] Burgwork, that's good news [10:19] mdke, and -category [10:19] perhaps the script option is a good one for BetterWikiDocs [10:20] mdke, I am certain we can use a script [10:20] i mean for moving the pages [10:20] yes, so did I [10:20] ah [10:20] sweet, when at help.ubuntu.com, we can actually have useful categories [10:21] yes [10:21] we can discuss those later along the line === Burgwork starts dancing with joy [10:23] the moin 1.5 WYSIWYG editor is quite nice, be cool if we can get them to upgrade [10:24] I wasn't much of a fan, but hey, to each there own [10:24] at least it exists [10:25] mdke, what do you think about adding a Help tab to the main ubuntu site? [10:25] you mean rename "support"? [10:25] that might work [10:25] but support is slightly different than help [10:31] http://www.subuntu.com/subuntu.shtml <-- hmm [10:33] http://digg.com/linux_unix/Using_Ubuntu_to_help_Detroit_youth <-- part of my evil plan to bring even more Ubuntu to digg [10:34] well, i gotta go to to heaven on earth, Fry's. Cya all later [10:45] robotgeek_away, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PageHits <-- WiFi howto is already number 7 in popularity [10:45] s/7/15 [10:46] gah why the hell is StartSeite number 5 [10:47] oh it's not a moin page, it's an Ubuntu localised page, nice [10:51] mdke, will we be able to nuke that Help stuff that moin spews into the main namespace? [10:52] mdke, and there is a hack to allow for userpages on a differnt wiki, thoughts? [10:52] Burgwork, all pages can be nuked [10:52] userpages can stay on the main wiki i think [10:52] otherwise it will get complicated [10:53] ok, glad we agree on this [10:53] while I like the idea of having a separate one, it will confuse the users i think [10:53] mdke, I mean the main wiki, not a seperate one [10:53] oh [10:53] i wish moin had more robust communication tools [10:54] interwiki works [10:56] http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/MatthewEast [10:56] (bottom section) [10:57] or #REDIRECT [10:58] yep, I see that [10:58] #REFRESH i mean [11:18] mdke, I have controversational suggestion for once we switch [11:19] mdke, lets jump to mediawiki style markup === Burgwork also wants to drop camelcase and freelinking, but that is another fight to be fought [11:40] ffewww, I made my commit for the day :-) [11:41] LaserJock, my suggestion, make smaller commits. It makes them easier to rollback, etc. if something breaks between one commit and the nexty [11:41] lots of small commits == good [11:41] Burgwork: yeah, I've been trying to figure out what the best size is. [11:42] I'm very new to revision control [11:42] LaserJock, each commit should have a complete edit in it, but not much more [11:42] LaserJock, it should always work between commits [11:43] well, the problem right now is that I'm trying to commit by section and since I'm writing it from scratch basically the commits are big [11:43] maybe I should commit by subsection [11:43] ;-) [11:44] crimsun: btw, It would be reallly nice if you could look over the packaging guide sometime [11:44] LaserJock: url? [11:45] (sorry, lazy/meeting) [11:50] its in the doc team repo generic/packagingguide/C/ [11:51] and its on doc.ubuntu.com but that takes some time to update [11:51] ok, I'll look in the repo [11:51] crimsun: thanks [11:52] mdke: btw is it ok to change the GPL license XML? [11:53] mdke: the structure makes the HTML look bad