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[12:08] <AlinuxOS> a
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[12:51] <\sh> infinity: do you want a status right now of your madwifi-ng test package?
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[01:36] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, maybe here ? :) hello...and sorry for time :)
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[02:03] <delire> frogfrogfrog: for an insight into the Linux filesystem structure: 'man hier'
[02:03] <floam> BenC: you around?
[02:04] <delire> sorry, that was a casualty of having moved IRC clients..
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[03:20] <Toma-> is there going to be any changes to the /etc/security/limit.conf settings in dapper?
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[03:26] <Toma-> or will forkbombs be a useful system tester?
[03:26] <Lathiat> what implements the policys in that file?
[03:27] <Toma-> libpam-modules
[03:27] <Toma-> email the packager?
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[03:30] <Lathiat> Toma-: so, i doubt there are.. is there any reason too?
[03:30] <Lathiat> Toma-: keep in mind the maintainer is the debian person and that any changes they may plan to make may or may not be reflected in dapper
[03:30] <Toma-> ummm increased security?
[03:31] <Lathiat> Toma-: whats wrong with the current settings?
[03:31] <Toma-> its unlimited...
[03:31] <Toma-> any user can run a million process's if he/she wants
[03:31] <Lathiat> sure, if you want to change that yourself you can?
[03:31] <Lathiat> imposing arbitrary limits at the distro level can break things
[03:31] <Toma-> ok then.
[03:31] <Lathiat> did we ever not have them unlimited?
[03:31] <Toma-> i spose...
[03:32] <Toma-> but its a weakness
[03:32] <Toma-> and just a suggestion :)
[03:32] <Lathiat> Toma-: i mean, if you wanted to discuss implementing defaults at the distro level you could, i wouldn't
[03:32] <Toma-> but surely, a simple realistic limit would be better than no limit at all?
[03:33] <Lathiat> Toma-: thats arguable, what is a "realistic limit" ?
[03:33] <Toma-> say, 100 proc's?
[03:33] <ajmitch> far too small
[03:33] <Lathiat> i break 100 procs regularly
[03:33] <Toma-> at user level?
[03:33] <Lathiat> yep
[03:33] <ajmitch> certainly
[03:33] <Toma-> wow.
[03:33] <Lathiat> system level too, like, apache
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[03:34] <Toma-> yeh id say for server something like 10000
[03:34] <Lathiat> 1000 would probably be approaching more reasonable, if not more
[03:34] <Toma-> i see
[03:34] <Toma-> maybe ill just write a howto/wiki on beefing up security!
[03:35] <Lathiat> sounds good :)
[03:35] <Toma-> :)
[03:35] <Lathiat> well you helped me today, i had no idea those files in /etc/security existed :)
[03:35] <ajmitch> Lathiat: shame on you ;)
[03:35] <Toma-> hehe. they exist, but nothing is set in them :<
[03:35] <Lathiat> bur.st has ulimits set in the bash profile :)
[03:36] <ajmitch> it's not as nice
[03:37] <Toma-> so thats all going to be unchanged in dapper? so a wiki on it will still be useful with breezy+dapper?
[03:38] <ajmitch> we can hardly state that it'll be unchanged, since release isn't until april :)
[03:38] <ajmitch> it will probably stay as-is, unless there's a good reason to change it
[03:38] <Toma-> ha, but no changes *planned*
[03:38] <Toma-> ok cool
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[04:17] <nekohayo> hello, is there any rough ETA for flight 4?
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[04:58] <Yagisan> lamont: ping
[04:58] <lamont> Yagisan: si?
[04:59] <Yagisan> lamont: Could I kindly request you sync nmap 4 from debian ? The reduced memory requirements over what is in dapper would be good.
[04:59] <lamont> you certainly could.
[04:59] <lamont> so can I (and have done so)
[05:00] <Yagisan> lamont: thank you :)
[05:01] <lamont> Yagisan: against us is the fact that we're 3 weeks past upstream-version-freeze
[05:03] <Yagisan> lamont: I know. IIRC it is functionally equivalent to what is in dapper, but a much smaller memory footprint.
[05:03] <lamont> newer fingerprints, etc, etc.
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[05:56] <lamont> Unpacking x11-common (from .../x11-common_7.0.0-0ubuntu13_hppa.deb) ...
[05:56] <lamont> Can't exec "locale": No such file or directory at
[05:56] <lamont> oopd.
[05:56] <lamont> oops, even
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=== lamont uploads a few random packages
[06:12] <lamont> all with xorg-transition love
[06:13] <seth> bah
[06:13] <seth> ndiswrapper still not fixed
[06:14] <crimsun> seth: wait for 2.6.15-15.20
[06:14] <seth> well, I was going to just compile my own, but ndiswrapper-source still builds a -modules that depends on >= 1.8-1 instead of >= 1.8-0
[06:15] <crimsun> oh, you can just hack the control template
[06:15] <seth> right, I did that but it overwrote it, and I was too lazy to poke anymore
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[06:17] <seth> and according to malone #29842 it should have been fixed by -0ubuntu2
[06:17] <Ubugtu> malone bug 29842 in ndiswrapper ndiswrapper-utils "ndiswrapper not installable" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/29842
[06:18] <ajmitch> seth: but you're trying to build ndiswrapper-modules from ndiswrapper-source?
[06:19] <seth> mm, I was reading that wrong. -utils installed, ndiswrapper happy now
[06:19] <ajmitch> crimsun: alsa-driver patches need a bit of love to work with rc3 :)
[06:20] <crimsun> ajmitch: ooh, nice
[06:20] <crimsun> I guess I'd better update svn
[06:21] <ajmitch> things like the make -j patch didn't apply
[06:22] <ajmitch> looks like it might be included upstream now
[06:23] <ajmitch> yeah, built fine without that 1 patch
=== ajmitch is still waiting patiently for the kernel biulds to finish up
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[06:24] <guest21> the launchpad bug reporting tool for ubuntu is failing to accept my bug report
[06:25] <guest21> i get "Oops"
[06:25] <guest21> and it tells me to email you'
[06:25] <guest21> how can i submit the bug report?
[06:26] <Lathiat> guest21: you could file a bug against malone
[06:26] <Lathiat> http://launchpad.net/products/malone/+filebug if that also OOPSes then send an email as described
[06:27] <guest21> what ismalone?
[06:27] <Lathiat> malone is launchpad's bug tracker
[06:27] <Lathiat> its just the name for it
[06:27] <Lathiat> like bugzilla, etc
[06:27] <guest21> eh, well do you have somethign other than launchpad for reporting bugs?
[06:27] <guest21> this one is critical
[06:27] <guest21> kernel issue
[06:27] <Lathiat> if you file a bug then please include as much info aabout what you were putting in the bug includin gthe url your tryign to file at
[06:28] <Lathiat> guest21: No, but please file a bug about your problems filing a bug so it can be fixed
[06:28] <guest21> i have a lab with 20 machines, all showing the same issue
[06:28] <guest21> eh, ok
[06:28] <Lathiat> guest21: breezy or dapper?
[06:28] <guest21> breezy
[06:28] <lamont> guest21: and this is the channel to discuss your patch.
[06:28] <guest21> im not that bad an admin ;-)
[06:28] <lamont> #ubuntu is the place to talk about the bug...
[06:29] <guest21> lamont, the patch is out there apparantly -- but not verified
[06:29] <guest21> not sure if anyone has tested it...
[06:30] <guest21> the whole damn launchpad ubuntu is down
[06:30] <guest21> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu
=== lamont mumbles something about this not being a support channel, but wonders what the bug is
[06:30] <Lathiat> guest21: no, thast the wrong url
[06:30] <Lathiat> guest21: you want https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu
[06:30] <Lathiat> guest21: what page are you tryign to file a bug at?
[06:30] <guest21> eh sorry yea
[06:30] <guest21> nope
[06:32] <guest21> this isnt my first time having problems with launchpad..
[06:32] <guest21> oh well, ill try to file tomorrow
[06:32] <Lathiat> guest21: can you please file the bug against malone about the failing bug report? it can't be fixed if they dont know how to produce it :)
[06:33] <guest21> Lathiat, i dotn know what package they want
[06:33] <guest21> i mean what would i even say
[06:33] <Lathiat> guest21: go to the url i pasted above
[06:33] <guest21> i did
[06:33] <Lathiat>  http://launchpad.net/products/malone/+filebug 
[06:33] <lamont> guest21: https://launchpad.net/products/malone
[06:33] <lamont> ah, Lathiat's is even better.
[06:34] <Lathiat> :)
[06:34] <guest21> im there but no idea wtf to say
[06:34] <guest21> never mind
[06:34] <guest21> i have to go to sleep
[06:34] <lamont> guest21: "I did this and malone said this"
[06:34] <guest21> been up 110 hours straight
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[06:53] <Toma-> if you took away read access for users+all from /boot/ would you break the system?
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[07:25] <lamont> Toma-: I don't see why...
[07:26] <Toma-> yeh neither. nevermind :) i got help from the help chan... as i should have in the first place, sorry
[07:26] <lamont> heh
[07:27] <Toma-> <:)
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[08:41] <sladen> so, how am I supposed to use 'quilt'?  at the moment I'm guessing
[08:41] <Lathiat> man quilt? :)
[08:41] <lamont> sladen: mitzi prefers to use a quilt over her legs while watching TV.
[08:42] <sladen> touch debian/patches/468_sudo_hint ; quilt push -a ; quilt add -p 468_sudo_hint src/su.c
[08:42] <sladen> however, that just barfs
[08:42] <lamont> debian/patches/series is the clue I needed for NMU'ing debian's glibc this week...
[08:42] <lamont> but nfc how to use quilt
[08:42] <Lathiat> you nmud glibc? scary :)
[08:42] <sladen> and then gets into fusses over getting the wrong number of stiches in a line and getting her knitting needles crossed
[08:43] <Lathiat> lol
[08:44] <lamont> Lathiat: it needed it.
[08:44] <lamont> no package is safe from Captain NMU
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[08:45] <Lathiat> ah hppa issue
[08:45] <lamont> yeah
[08:46] <lamont> it met my  "Zero Tolerance for Porting Issues" NMU policy :0)
=== sladen is going to have Zero Tolerance for quilting very soon
=== Lathiat grins
[09:00] <Lathiat> for some reaosn i really laughed far too hard then :)
[09:03] <viviersf> whens the next flight gonna be ?
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[09:05] <lamont> viviersf: whatever the schedule says, modulo the conversion to soyuz from DAK (build infrastructure changes affect lots of stuff)
[09:06] <lamont> viviersf: mind you, that's just my guess.....
=== lamont sleeps
[09:08] <viviersf> hmmk
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[09:48] <dholbach> good morning
[09:48] <Keybuk> *hugs*
=== dholbach hugs Keybuk
[09:49] <jsgotangco> hi dholbach Keybuk 
[09:49] <Keybuk> hmm, I wonder how interesting it would be to collect the contents of /dev/.udev/failed from everyone
[09:51] <mdz> I have 7 items theer
[09:51] <mdz> there
[09:51] <sivang> morning all
[09:51] <mdz> 4 PCI and 3 PNP
[09:52] <sivang> does anybody know what's the package name for mvo's upgrade tool? I want to dist-upgrade a laptop here and I want to give his tool a good test
[09:52] <Keybuk> yeah, probably your PCI Bridge, ISA Bridge, SD/MMC Slot and a bunch of unknown PNP stuff
[09:52] <seb128> 8 PIC, 4 PNP, 1 IEEE for me
[09:53] <Keybuk> could be a good thing to add to the hardware database thing ... stuff that we don't have modules for
[09:53] <jsgotangco> i have 10 items
[09:53] <jsgotangco> 1 IEEE, 5 PNP, 4 PCI
[09:54] <Keybuk> what's the IEEE ones?
[09:54] <jsgotangco> class@ieee1394@000039000074fa13-0 
[09:55] <Keybuk> what's in /sys/class/ieee1394/000039000074fa13-0 ?
[09:55] <sivang> oh, found the fridge entry.
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[09:55] <Treenaks> Keybuk: on my mac mini, class@ieee1394@001124fffe74df0a-0 fails too
[09:55] <Keybuk> mdz: cat /dev/.udev/failed/*pnp*/id
[09:56] <mdz> PNP0200
[09:56] <mdz> PNP0c04
[09:56] <mdz> IBM0068
[09:56] <jsgotangco> my /sys/class has at 4 IEEE dirs
[09:57] <Treenaks> Keybuk: /sys/class/ieee1394/001124fffe74df0a-0/ has a 'device' and 'uevent' dirs
[09:57] <jsgotangco> same here
[09:57] <Keybuk> Treenaks: does device/ have anything interesting in it?
[09:58] <jsgotangco> mine does
[09:58] <jsgotangco> 9 files
[09:58] <Keybuk> named?
[09:58] <Treenaks> Keybuk: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/7935
[09:58] <jsgotangco> address  ieee1394:000039000074fa13-0  length  specifier_id  version
[09:58] <jsgotangco> bus      ignore_driver                power   uevent
[09:59] <Keybuk> hmm, nothing really descriptive there :-/
[09:59] <Keybuk> was hoping for a "name" or something
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[10:00] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I can tar it up and send it to you...
[10:00] <Keybuk> Treenaks: nothing useful there, other than the device id
[10:02] <slomo_> mdz: hi, avahi 0.6.6 was released yesterday... another (mostly) bugfix release :) do you have any objections against a UVF exception? changelog is located here: http://avahi.org/milestone/Avahi 0.6.6
[10:02] <mdz> slomo_: please send mail, otherwise I may forget
[10:03] <slomo_> mdz: ok
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=== sivang hugs pitti 
[10:05] <mdke> morning all
[10:05] <jsgotangco> hello
[10:06] <pitti> hi everybody
[10:06] <fabbione> hey slomo
[10:06] <janimo> dholbach, mdz, xfce/thunar/exo UVF exceptions as requested on motu-list. Pinging both as they are in uni now but approved for main 
[10:07] <janimo> hi pitti
[10:07] <slomo_> hi fabbione :)
[10:07] <fabbione> slomo_: xine is properly fixed now. it was an upstream bug. did you see the changes i did apply?
[10:07] <dholbach> janimo: I send the requests in batched way to Colin and Matt.
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[10:07] <dholbach> janimo: did you do the sync/upload already?
[10:08] <slomo_> fabbione: one mom, i'll take a look at cvs
[10:08] <janimo> dholbach, no uploads yet
[10:08] <dholbach> janimo: I'll pass it on.
[10:08] <fabbione> slomo_: i did apply the patch only to our pkgs
[10:08] <janimo> I asked for permission to have it in time for when I actually want to sync ;)
[10:08] <janimo> dholbach, thanks
[10:09] <fabbione> slomo_: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/xine.diff
[10:09] <dholbach> janimo: I do this weekly, as explained on the mailing list.
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[10:09] <fabbione> slomo_: that's the diff between ubuntu2 and 3
[10:11] <janimo> dholbach, ok I just saw that most other uvf mails got answers on the list but this didn't :)
[10:11] <dholbach> janimo: answers, but after several days
[10:11] <slomo_> fabbione: thanks
[10:11] <dholbach> janimo: and those that got answers get passed on to Matt and Colin.
[10:12] <Lathiat> who do i need to speak to about packages not appearing right? (iirc this binary name was moved from 1 source package to another)
[10:12] <dholbach> janimo: (sufficiently good answers)
[10:12] <fabbione> slomo_: as i explained to siretart, in theory after you change configure.ac you should autoreconf
[10:12] <dholbach> janimo: you may have seen the "batch" mails
[10:12] <fabbione> sladen: but it was failing, so i used a trick to propagate the option to configure
[10:14] <slomo_> fabbione: autoreconf is definitely not failing ;) i used it to get our stripped tarball... anyway, this patch works... what do we want more? ;)
[10:14] <fabbione> slomo_: nothing..
[10:15] <fabbione> it might have been my environment that was wrong.. 
[10:15] <fabbione> just that you know..
[10:15] <fabbione> that's it
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[10:16] <dholbach> janimo: just a headsup: lots of xfce-ish stuff is still (build)depending on xlibs stuff
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[10:17] <janimo> dholbach, I just commited a fix for undepending on static-libs
[10:17] <janimo> any other?
[10:18] <dholbach> I notived yesterday.
[10:18] <janimo> yes I got a bug in LP today so fixed it
[10:20] <dholbach> it were around8-9 packages?
[10:21] <janimo> hmm libxfcegui and a few other -dev libs depending on it
[10:21] <dholbach> ah ok
[10:21] <janimo> I''l have to look maybe I missed some
[10:21] <janimo> thanks for the headsup :)
[10:21] <janimo> have you escaped the plague?
[10:22] <dholbach> Yeah. :-)
[10:22] <dholbach> I just felt tired one day.
[10:22] <dholbach> So that was fine.
[10:23] <jsgotangco> "the distro sprint of death"
[10:26] <Keybuk> we don't count him in the list of survivors
[10:27] <sivang> heh
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[10:35] <dholbach> infinity: could you please try to give back gnome-icon-theme?
[10:35] <infinity> dholbach: Sure.
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[10:35] <dholbach> infinity: Woohoo!
[10:37] <pitti> mdz: openssl097 can go as well
[10:37] <Keybuk> mjg59: reject the fix to bug 30335 if you don't like it
[10:37] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30335 in linux-source-2.6.15 "mmc subsystem needs MODALIAS love" [Normal,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30335
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[10:38] <infinity> pitti: \o/
[10:38] <infinity> pitti: Whacking mozilla as we speak.
[10:38] <pitti> infinity: mysql-dfsg just went to universe, 4.1 is close
[10:38] <pitti> infinity: you mean enigmail?
[10:38] <mdz> pitti: anastacia confirms
[10:39] <dholbach> Wow.
[10:39] <pitti> CLEANUP DAY!
[10:39] <dholbach> pitti: smurf said something about gnutls transition. 
[10:39] <pitti> I just need to fix the libtool breakage of redland-bindings for mysql 4.1
[10:39] <pitti> dholbach: yes, that's still on the list
[10:40] <pitti> dholbach: openldap has trouble with gnutls12
[10:41] <dholbach> pitti: maybe smurf knows more about it.
[10:41] <seb128> GNOME1 to universe!!!
[10:41] <dholbach> ROCK'N'ROLL!
[10:41] <infinity> dholbach: Built.
[10:41] <dholbach> XMMS to Universe!
[10:42] <dholbach> GTK1 to Universe! :)
[10:42] <dholbach> infinity: WOOHOO!
[10:42] <seb128> run away from mvo
[10:42] <infinity> pitti: Yes, enigmail being done so mozilla can move.
=== dholbach hugs infinity
=== pitti hugs infinity 
=== mvo weeps
=== pitti hugs mvo, too
[10:42] <dholbach> seb128: gnome-icon-theme built :)
=== mvo sniffs
[10:42] <seb128> ock
[10:42] <seb128> rock
[10:45] <Mithrandir> Riddell: are you done with the monitor soon?
[10:49] <Riddell> Mithrandir: yeah, take it
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[10:56] <jbailey> Isn't xmms in universe yet?
[10:56] <dholbach> nope
[10:56] <dholbach> evms-gui is the other culprit
[10:56] <jbailey> It's notlike there's ever been a security hole or update in it, why bother having it in main?
[10:56] <fabbione> meh don't touch xmms :)
[10:56] <dholbach> Hehe.
[10:56] <fabbione> pitti: ping
[10:56] <fabbione> pitti: ping
[10:56] <fabbione> no you don't get pings :)
[10:57] <dholbach> pitti: hey
=== earobinson [n=earobins@HSE-Toronto-ppp304689.sympatico.ca]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[10:58] <Mithrandir> jbailey: because users might want support on it.
[10:59] <jbailey> Mithrandir: I think on average most users won't have a clue that it's there.
[11:00] <Treenaks> jbailey: or we point them to beep-media-player, which is GTK2
[11:00] <Treenaks> or we fix rhythmbox/gstreamer of course
[11:00] <Mithrandir> jbailey: sorry, I was talking about evms, not xmms
[11:00] <Mithrandir> and I figure most users won't know about that either, but they won't know about apache or squid either
[11:00] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Well, my statement somewhat truer for evms than xmms, but so far I'm not advocating the evms go away. =)
[11:01] <Mithrandir> I would be _very unhappy_ if evms was thrown out of main; I'd rather have not build the gtk frontend
[11:01] <jbailey> i'd expect that the target audiences of squid and apache do actually know that it's there.
[11:01] <jbailey> Right. =)
[11:01] <jbailey> I'd rather evms not eat partition tables and that upstream care about it on ppc, but I'm a bit picky that way.
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[11:02] <Mithrandir> never ate a partition table for me
[11:02] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Lucky you. =(
[11:02] <infinity> Maybe it just wasn't hungry enough.
[11:02] <jbailey> Tried it on ppc? =)
[11:02] <Mithrandir> no, not yet.
[11:02] <jbailey> Recommend that you don't.
[11:02] <Mithrandir> I'd probably rather just fix it.
[11:03] <jbailey> At the time it was my main machine so my next goal was only getting my data back.
[11:03] <jbailey> I'll probably try to fix it sometime after my pegasos box works again.
[11:04] <Mithrandir> heh
[11:04] <Mithrandir> yes, I'll do it on my peg too.
[11:04] <Mithrandir> it's a peg1, though. :-(
[11:04] <jbailey> Suck.
[11:05] <jbailey> I have a peg2, but I instaled one of Svenl's newer firmwares.
[11:05] <Mithrandir> it broke?
[11:05] <jbailey> Unfortunately, neither linux or grub2 will boot now.
[11:05] <Mithrandir> that's slightly unfortunate
[11:05] <jbailey> I apparently need a newer yaboot to get everything to run, and I didn't have time to burn a CD with a recovery setup.
[11:05] <jbailey> And then.
[11:05] <jbailey> well
[11:06] <jbailey> apathy set it.  y'know?
[11:06] <jbailey> s/it/in/
=== Mithrandir blinks at Kamion's amd64.
[11:07] <Mithrandir> it's _clearly_ smoking crack
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[11:16] <Kamion> Mithrandir: hmm?
[11:16] <Mithrandir> Kamion: it booted off the USB hard drive just fine, somehow, then didn't find hd2,2 (since it was 0,2)
[11:20] <Mithrandir> Kamion: any chance we could have usb_storage in the netboot images? :-)
[11:22] <Kamion> they're in hd_media presumably ...
[11:22] <Kamion> err ... surely for netboot you can get usb_storage before needing to access any disks.
[11:22] <Kinnison> hi Kamion, how're you today?
[11:22] <Kamion> i.e. get it from the network
[11:23] <Mithrandir> Kamion: well, if choose-mirror wasn't falling over, sure.
[11:23] <Kamion> Kinnison: tired and sore-throat but otherwise recovering I think
[11:23] <Kamion> Mithrandir: that would be the root problem then ...
[11:23] <jbailey> Kinnison!
[11:23] <jbailey> Kinnison: Seems it was just the tube. =)
[11:23] <Kamion> netboot ain't really designed for the case where it doesn't work
[11:23] <Mithrandir> Kamion: cdebconf-priority could be useful, too
[11:23] <Kinnison> jbailey: yay
[11:23] <Kinnison> jbailey: I'm glad. because I wouldn't want to have to think bad things about Tito's
[11:24] <Mithrandir> Kamion: shocker. :-)
[11:24] <jbailey> Kinnison: Keybuk's assertion that simply the presence of the tube can make one ill seems to be accurate. =)
=== Kinnison grins
[11:24] <jbailey> Kinnison: Right. =)  Still a litle greasier than I like, but I would actually be willing to try it again on another trip here.
[11:24] <ogra> Mithrandir, oh, please dont make the image bigger again with hd drivers in the netboot image ...
[11:25] <Kinnison> jbailey: yay
[11:25] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I agree on that one
=== ogra is operating at the edge of 55MB thin clients here ...
[11:25] <Kamion> (cdebconf-priority)
[11:26] <ogra> (every byte counts) :)
[11:26] <Kamion> ogra: not that I'm arguing hd drivers should be added, but the installer should work in 32MB now
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[11:26] <Kamion> please do test that, might be +/- a few MB
[11:27] <ogra> Kamion, we should probably have an option to add single selected modules to one of the initramfs modes then ...
[11:28] <Keybuk> jbailey: the great thing about the tube is, of course, the fact the inter-carriage doors are openable
[11:28] <Keybuk> so you have *no* excuse for throwing up inside
[11:28] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'll do the cdebconf-priority change upstream too, it seems it's done for m68k, but nobody else.
[11:28] <Kamion> ogra: the installer's memory consumption and the installed system's initramfs are *still* unrelated
[11:28] <Kamion> Mithrandir: yeah
[11:28] <ogra> Kamion, err, yes ...
[11:29] <Mithrandir> Kamion: actually, I'll just move it to base.  I can't think of a single place where it should not be.
[11:29] <jbailey> Keybuk: you live in a city where they installed urinals ourside of the national art gallery that are only open between midnight and 6 am so that the ravers wouldn't erode the historic building.  Yours is a practical country.
[11:29] <jbailey> Well, I guess you don't actually live here.
[11:29] <jbailey> But you live closer than I do. =)
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[11:33] <\sh> moins
[11:34] <pitti> hey \sh 
=== jsgotangco goes out for friday night parties
[11:35] <\sh> hey pitti :) defeated the island plaque? :)
[11:35] <pitti> \sh: yes, finally :)
[11:36] <Keybuk> muahahahaha
=== Keybuk slices yet more crap out of alsa
[11:36] <ogra> *giggle*
[11:36] <\sh> pitti: good to hear that you all are recovering :) 
[11:36] <JaneW> \sh: yeah, but sladen just arrived... be afraid, be VERY affraid!
[11:37] <jsgotangco> lol
[11:37] <\sh> JaneW: lol...sladen is a quaker...he meant no harm....;)
[11:37] <siretart> morning!
[11:37] <JaneW> \sh: :)
[11:37] <JaneW> jsgotangco: where are my pics? 
[11:38] <jsgotangco> oh
[11:38] <jsgotangco> wait
[11:38] <\sh> JaneW: or the plaque came from scotland :) blame riddell then :) *eg*
[11:38] <jsgotangco> JaneW: http://www.flickr.com/photos/headgeekette/
[11:38] <jsgotangco> these are not mine though (have yet to transfer mine)
[11:38] <jsgotangco> its just sabdfl in a black suit and gold tie
[11:39] <JaneW> \sh: actually we suspect it's from cambridge
[11:39] <JaneW> jsgotangco: nice haircut (you and mark...)
[11:41] <jsgotangco> ill upload the ones with malcolm and hande later
[11:42] <\sh> who is marks wardrobe manager? he should be killed for this golden tie thing around marks neck...it hurts my eyes ;)
[11:44] <Treenaks> Is there a reason we don't enable dir_index on ext3 filesystems by default?
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[11:56] <sladen> does anyone undersatnd quilt.  quilt refresh ; quilt pop ; quilt push says "File series fully applied, ends at patch"  (missing off the one that was pop and refusing to reapply it)
[11:59] <Kamion> Treenaks: IIRC last time it came up upstream advised us not to do it yet
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[12:17] <Keybuk> mjg59: remind me ... /etc/apm and /etc/acpi are entirely separate, right?
[12:17] <mjg59> Yes
[12:18] <Keybuk> and we still support apmd and stuff
[12:20] <mjg59> Yes
[12:21] <Keybuk> right, just making sure I don't get too carried away with ^K
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[12:25] <Keybuk> I still can't decide between; in /etc/modprobe.d:
[12:25] <Keybuk> install some-module modprobe --ignore-install some-module && { modprobe -Qb some-other-module ; : ; }
[12:25] <Keybuk> vs. in /etc/udev/rules.d:
[12:26] <Keybuk> SUBSYSTEM=="module", ACTION=="add", NAME=="some-module", RUN+="/sbin/modprobe -Qb some-other-module"
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[12:37] <Keybuk> ... I really must stop editing /var/lib/dpkg/status to test upgrads
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[01:05] <jordi> hmm, what does an ubuntu system do when you boot runlevel 1?
[01:06] <jordi> does it just log in as root, without asking a passwd?
[01:06] <Keybuk> drop you to a shell
[01:06] <Keybuk> yeah
[01:06] <jordi> I never tried that
[01:06] <jordi> ok
[01:06] <Keybuk> after all, if you can boot to runlevel 1, you can stick init=/bin/sh instead
[01:06] <jordi> 88yes
=== StevenK waits for his new machine to boot up again.
[01:10] <StevenK> It's a novetly having a desktop machine that's quiet.
[01:11] <Mithrandir> I'm looking forward to getting home and not sitting besides a 2U rack server any more.
[01:12] <StevenK> Heh.
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[01:12] <StevenK> My Dual Athlon (with 8 fans, sounds like a jet turbine) has been replaced with a SFF amd64.
[01:12] <Mithrandir> heh
[01:13] <Mithrandir> my amd64 has three fans: one on the GPU and two 12cm case fans.
[01:13] <Mithrandir> quite quiet
[01:13] <StevenK> This has two.
[01:13] <StevenK> One for the CPU, and one for the PSU.
[01:14] <StevenK> And I can't hear either of them.
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[01:14] <janimo> jordi, you can drop the thunar po upload, as upstream was not unanimously interested in rosetta. thanks
[01:15] <StevenK> Oh blah, the power just dipped again.
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[01:19] <jordi> janimo: thanks
[01:19] <jordi> janimo: only we can't remove anything from the queue just now :)
[01:19] <jordi> it'll be gone eventually, thanks for the notice
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[01:35] <mdz> Mithrandir: no CPU fan on your amd64?
[01:36] <Mithrandir> mdz: nope, just a big heatsink
[01:37] <maswan> Mithrandir: you should get a fanless gpu?
[01:37] <Mithrandir> maswan: I had one, but it wasn't dual-dvi.
[01:37] <maswan> Mithrandir: Ah
[01:38] <Mithrandir> it's very, very hard to find decent fanless GPUs with dual DVI which doesn't cost two arms and a caravan of camels.
[01:38] <maswan> Mithrandir: The amd64 I'm on now has just one big fan, IIRC.
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[01:38] <maswan> might be a gpu fan there that I dont' remember though
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[01:38] <Mithrandir> maswan: dual dvi and 6600GT or better? :-)
[01:38] <maswan> Mithrandir: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 0161 (rev a1)
[01:38] <maswan> ehm.
=== maswan tries to figure out how to get hold of that data :)
[01:39] <Mithrandir> pciids.sf.net
[01:39] <maswan> GeForce 6200 TurboCache(TM)
[01:40] <Mithrandir> yeah, those are easy to get, but their 3d performance isn't too good
[01:41] <maswan> well, some screensaver stuff goes aroudn in 3d, I think.
[01:42] <maswan> in other words, no, I don't care about 3d performance. :)
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[01:47] <fabbione> Mithrandir: actually a camel i Egypt is worth about 700USD
[01:47] <Mithrandir> fabbione: just think about what a whole caravan would be
[01:47] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i have been offered a few for my wife.. but i wasn't really sure if it was a good deal.. for the other guy :)
[01:47] <ogra> fabbione, thats a grown up ?
[01:48] <Keybuk> mjg59: laptop-mode seems to be mysteriously on for people
[01:48] <mjg59> Keybuk: Fun
[01:49] <\sh> A camel == 700USD? 
[01:49] <mjg59> Keybuk: (Nowhere near a laptop right now - /etc/acpi/power.sh fiddles with that, and it's supposed to do something sensible on boot)
[01:50] <freeflying> Mithrandir: hi
[01:50] <Keybuk> hmm, ENABLE_LAPTOP_MODE=false
[01:50] <Keybuk> I suspect you have a shell bug ;)
[01:50] <\sh> fabbione: do you think a camel is more worth in Dubai? 
[01:50] <Mithrandir> freeflying: hi
[01:50] <Keybuk> no... it's even more obvious than that
[01:50] <Keybuk> /etc/rc2.d/laptop-mode ... :)
[01:51] <Keybuk>            ^S20
[01:51] <freeflying> Mithrandir: would you mind give me some advice on remaster dapper's livecd ?
[01:51] <Mithrandir> freeflying: was it you I mailed the other day, or was that somebody else?
[01:51] <freeflying> Mithrandir: not me 
[01:51] <Mithrandir> freeflying: (I wouldn't mind in either case if you write it up in some sensible way and put in on the wiki)
[01:53] <mjg59> Keybuk: Yeah, that's only supposed to put it into automatic mode
[01:53] <Mithrandir> freeflying: basically, all you need to do now is to mount the cd, mount the image, copy the contents of the image to somewhere and then chroot into that and customise that.  When done, do mksquashfs on the place you customised and you get a file out which you put on the cd instead of the current filesystem.squashfs
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[01:54] <freeflying> Mithrandir: have there a scripts now for doing that ?
[01:55] <Mithrandir> freeflying: none I know of.  Should be easy enough to write one, though
[01:55] <freeflying> Mithrandir: thx
[01:55] <ritvik> when i switch to a tty and then switch back (ctl+alt+F1 <====> clt+alt+F7) X-server crashes. any idea ?
[01:56] <mjg59> ritvik: Sounds like a bug. What driver are you using?
[01:57] <Kamion> I've just demoted a big load of xserver-xorg-input-* to universe
[01:57] <Kamion> xserver-xorg-input-acecad xserver-xorg-input-aiptek xserver-xorg-input-calcomp xserver-xorg-input-citron xserver-xorg-input-digitaledge xserver-xorg-input-dmc xserver-xorg-input-dynapro xserver-xorg-input-elographics xserver-xorg-input-fpit xserver-xorg-input-hyperpen xserver-xorg-input-magellan xserver-xorg-input-microtouch xserver-xorg-input-mutouch xserver-xorg-input-palmax xserver-xorg-input-penmount xserver-xorg-in
=== delire_ is now known as delire
[01:57] <Kamion> if any of these are sufficiently important to you that you think you can make a case that they're supportable and should stay in main, please tell ubuntu-devel@lists
[01:57] <mjg59> Kamion: Cut off after penmount
[01:58] <ritvik> mjg59, any thing specific you want to know? just a fresh install
[01:58] <Kamion> xserver-xorg-input-penmount xserver-xorg-input-spaceorb xserver-xorg-input-summa xserver-xorg-input-tek4957 xserver-xorg-input-void
[01:58] <Lathiat> unrar-nonfree was changed to produce the 'unrar' binary and it hasnt gone properly into ubuntu, who do i need to ask to sort that out?
[01:58] <mjg59> ritvik: You haven't changed anything? Not installed nvidia or ati drivers? If not, file a bug and include the output of lspci, /var/log/Xorg.0.log and /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[02:00] <ritvik> mjg59, nope no extra direvers .... cool i'll file one bug then 
[02:00] <Mithrandir> grr, md5sum mismatches on the internal mirror here in the hotel
[02:02] <Keybuk> right
[02:02] <Keybuk> that's alsa butchered
[02:02] <Keybuk> muahahaha, if anyone's sound card works, file a bug :)
[02:02] <Mithrandir> mine haven't, for a little while.
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[02:03] <Mithrandir> I think I'm blaming dmix, since it seems to fall over when ekiga and muine both try to touch it
[02:03] <Keybuk> actually, this hopefully fixes the silly boot errors and stuff
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[02:12] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: you broke alsa.  Please fix, kthxbye.
[02:12] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: ...
[02:12] <Mithrandir> (postinst looks for /usr/share/alsa-base/snddevices)
[02:12] <Keybuk> it does?
[02:12] <Mithrandir> that is, alsa-base.postinst.
[02:12] <Keybuk> which postinst?
[02:12] <Mithrandir> line 120
[02:12] <Mithrandir> so my syslog claims
[02:13] <Keybuk> oh, bah, hang on, didn't catch that one
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[02:24] <ritvik> mjg59,  back after another crash :-) #30395
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[02:51] <mdke> dholbach, can you avoid doing an ubuntu-docs upload for the next few days pls? 
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[03:43] <dholbach> mdke: Yeah.
[03:43] <dholbach> mdke: just tell me, when you're settled again.
[03:43] <dholbach> mdke: I'd rather have not uploaded from here.
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[03:49] <jsgotangco> mmm?
[03:54] <Diziet> checking whether  accepts -g... no
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[04:00] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/20060202_new-world-order_keybuk.ogg
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[04:03] <Keybuk> THREE HOURS TO GO!  UPLOAD NOW, WHILE YOU STILL CAN!
[04:05] <\sh> I hope you guys are on duty tomorrow :)
[04:05] <jpatrick> Keybuk: for what?
[04:06] <Keybuk> jpatrick: katie go bye-bye
[04:06] <\sh> jpatrick: soyuz lands 
=== Kinnison suggests you don't upload lots and lots now
[04:06] <Keybuk> interesting fact ... the soyuz crash lands
[04:06] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I had a reboot a few hours ago, and evms took ~ 30 seconds
[04:06] <Kinnison> because otherwise the builders won't quiesce in any sane amount of time
[04:07] <Keybuk> http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/soy1crs3.jpg
[04:08] <tseng> Keybuk: haha
[04:08] <\sh> Keybuk: soyuz or shuttle....both can crash 
[04:09] <Keybuk> \sh: yes, but one is designed to during normal operation
[04:09] <\sh> hmm...I just said something FREUDish, right?
[04:09] <Diziet> I'm not sure it counts as a crash if it comes down in quite that many pieces.
[04:10] <Keybuk> is that like the Challenger?  it didn't crash, and didn't explode ... so when asked what happened, the best reply is "bad things"
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[04:12] <Diziet> Both of them disintegrated, I think.
[04:12] <mdz> Challenger certainly didn't; some very large pieces were recovered
[04:12] <Treenaks> Black dragon scale mail.
[04:13] <\sh> well, at least, the last crew knew that something is happening'
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[04:23] <Treenaks> Keybuk: (watching the video) I can test 2 USB gamepads ;)
[04:25] <Keybuk> do it then :)
[04:26] <Treenaks> Keybuk: in an hour, when I get home :)
[04:26] <Treenaks> (hm, I have one connected to my mini-mac, but there's no device for it I think)
[04:29] <Treenaks> how do I test?
[04:31] <fabbione> dear desktop team, please gconf-tool2 sucks less
[04:31] <Treenaks> fabbione: No pony for you!
[04:31] <seb128> Keybuk: should the network-manager bugs be assigned to you?
[04:32] <Keybuk> if you like
[04:33] <seb128> ok, doing so
[04:33] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I have a /dev/input/js0, but only when I manually load joydev
[04:34] <Keybuk> Treenaks: "udevmonitor -e", plug it in, paste output somewhere in my direction
[04:35] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I can't get to the plug atm.. it's ~50 km away :)
[04:35] <Treenaks> I can manually load/unload the modules...
[04:36] <Keybuk> that doesn't help
[04:36] <Keybuk> I need to see the add event that _doesn't_ load joydev
[04:36] <Keybuk> it's probably a "not a joystick" bug :)
[04:36] <Treenaks> Keybuk: hm.. ok :)
[04:36] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I'll try in an hour then :)
[04:42] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: can we support UUID=$uuid and not just /dev/disk/by-uuid?
[04:42] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: on the kernel command-line?
[04:42] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: yes
[04:42] <Keybuk> sure, but that's an initramfs-tools thing
[04:42] <Keybuk> get it to convert UUID=$uuid into ROOT=/dev/disk/by-uuid/$uuid
[04:42] <Keybuk> (as it has to mount it anyway)
[04:43] <Mithrandir> true
[04:43] <Treenaks> oh, speaking of which, my /dev/sda1 moved to /dev/sde1 in dapper (from a breezy install + upgrade)
[04:43] <Treenaks> which kind of sucked
[04:43] <Mithrandir> infinity: ^^ ?
[04:43] <Keybuk> Treenaks: bug me about it when you have that machine nearby
[04:43] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I'm working on that machine now
[04:43] <Keybuk> do you have another machine you can work/irc from while you reboot that one? :p
[04:43] <Mithrandir> infinity: currently, it dies with a failure to parse UUID= in parse_numeric.
[04:44] <Treenaks> Keybuk: not really, but I can report back after rebooting :)
[04:44] <infinity> Mithrandir: Mmkay.  And what if you pass me both UUID and ROOT, who wins? :)
[04:44] <Treenaks> Keybuk: (and I won't leave irc, as my client is running on another machine)
[04:44] <Mithrandir> infinity: root=UUID=blah root=/dev/sda3?
[04:45] <Mithrandir> infinity: arbitrary.  Don't do that.
[04:45] <infinity> Ahh.
[04:45] <infinity> I idn't catch the root=UUID= magic.
[04:45] <infinity> Easily handled.
[04:45] <Keybuk> Treenaks: it suggests you have two scsi cards
[04:45] <Mithrandir> infinity: coolie.  When can I have it? :-)
[04:45] <infinity> May.
[04:46] <infinity> (Or in a few mins...)
[04:46] <Mithrandir> infinity: a few minutes sounds lovely.
[04:46] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I have 1 SATA hard-disk, and 4 USB memory-card slots
[04:46] <Keybuk> Treenaks: what are sda-sdd?
[04:46] <Treenaks> Keybuk: CompactFlash, SD, MemoryStick, xD
[04:46] <Mithrandir> infinity: if you want extra brownie points, supporting root=LABEL=blah would be nice too
[04:46] <Treenaks> (or something like that)
[04:46] <Mithrandir> to be converted into /dev/disk/by-label/blah, obviously
[04:46] <infinity> Mithrandir: /dev/disks/by-label/
[04:46] <infinity> Mithrandir: Right.
[04:47] <Mithrandir> yes
[04:47] <infinity> Mithrandir: You'll have them both after I'm done listening in on this discussion.
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[04:48] <Keybuk> Treenaks: what's PCI bus id of your SCSI card and those 4 things?
[04:48] <fabbione> what is an ftp client that can do ssl?
[04:48] <Keybuk> lftp
[04:48] <fabbione> ok thanks
[04:49] <Treenaks> Keybuk: the SATA controller is 0000:00:1f.2 0106: 8086:27c1 (rev 01)
[04:49] <Treenaks> Keybuk: and the smart card readers are on USB
[04:49] <Treenaks> uh
[04:49] <Treenaks> memory card
[04:49] <Keybuk> and what's the USB controller PCI bus id?
[04:50] <Treenaks> 0000:00:1d.7 0c03: 8086:27cc (rev 01)
[04:50] <Keybuk> ok
[04:50] <Keybuk> that's why your disk is later then :)
[04:50] <Keybuk> it'll find the USB controller first
[04:50] <Treenaks> That's not the problem-- the problem is that it changed from breezy, which broke booting :)
[04:51] <Keybuk> that's because we support USB-booting now
[04:51] <Treenaks> sure, but does that imply breakage? :)
[04:51] <Keybuk> yeah
[04:51] <Treenaks> hmm, isn't that bad?
[04:52] <Keybuk> I'm not sure there's a way to avoid it
[04:52] <Keybuk> your USB controller also probably takes less time to initialise and wins the lower ids
[04:52] <Keybuk> well, not an easy way
[04:52] <Keybuk> certainly not a fast way
[04:52] <Treenaks> I bet I'm not the only one with this problem
[04:54] <Treenaks> But I understood it'll be avoided for the future bby using uuids/labels for mounting in 'new' dapper installs?
[04:55] <Keybuk> that's one way
[04:55] <Keybuk> we have other bugs where a controller moved from hda to sda
[04:56] <Treenaks> 'Dapper Release Notes' ISBN: XXXXXXXXXX; 500 pages.
[04:57] <Keybuk> dapper release is long enough off that we expect to fix this kind of stuff
[04:57] <Keybuk> assuming people file bugs :)
=== PandabeaR [n=joshua@CPE-24-94-187-114.kc.res.rr.com]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[04:57] <Treenaks> Keybuk: Filing already ;)
[04:57] <PandabeaR> Can someone help me by any chance?
[04:58] <Treenaks> Keybuk: on what though?
[04:58] <Keybuk> Treenaks: ude
[04:58] <Keybuk> udev
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[04:58] <PandabeaR> I was pasting something the terminal was spitting out at me
[04:58] <PandabeaR> and the admin in ubuntu thought I was spamming
[04:58] <Keybuk> PandabeaR: this isn't a support channel
[04:58] <PandabeaR> and I didnt get to explain... could somone tell the admin in ubuntu channel to let me back in?
[04:59] <PandabeaR> I know...thats where I am trying to go... :(
[04:59] <PandabeaR> I would be very grateful if somone would do that for me though.
[05:00] <Keybuk> talk to them directly yourself
[05:00] <PandabeaR> I dont know how :(
[05:00] <Keybuk> /query theirnick
[05:00] <PandabeaR> servas?
[05:01] <PandabeaR> i forgot their nick lol :((
[05:01] <Kamion> you should have got a message saying who you were kicked by
[05:01] <Kamion> sounds like seveas
[05:01] <PandabeaR> ty
[05:01] <Treenaks> Keybuk: bug 30418 :)
[05:01] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30418 in udev "Root moved from /dev/sda1 to /dev/sde1 in breezy-&gt;dapper upgrade" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30418
[05:01] <Treenaks> Seveas: your bot broke :)
[05:02] <PandabeaR> Whats that?
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=== Keybuk wonders why a lot of his bugs involve 'e'
[05:07] <Keybuk> sde and hde
=== Simira wonders where Mithrandir went
[05:08] <ogra> Simira, he sits to my right at the floor
[05:08] <Keybuk> Simira: there's a group discussion going on atm
[05:08] <Simira> ah, right
=== Keybuk thinks this is just a diversion to stop people uploading and let the buildds catch up before THE END OF THE WORLD
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[05:12] <Treenaks> Keybuk: at least your bugs don't involve /dev/hd
[05:12] <Treenaks> (or /dev/sd
[05:15] <Seveas> Treenaks, broke?
[05:15] <sladen> http://www.paul.sladen.org/ubuntu/bug-buddy/find-source-package.sh
[05:16] <Treenaks> Seveas: &gt;
[05:16] <Seveas> ah
[05:17] <Keybuk> Treenaks: why didn't you use the Unicode  ?
[05:17] <Treenaks> Keybuk: because I have no clue how to type that (except using gucharmap)
[05:18] <Keybuk> Ctrl-Shift-2192
[05:18] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: don't tell me you know that by heart...
[05:18] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: ok, I won't
[05:18] <sladen>  ... ah, so that's why I could send ctrl-shift-6 to the cisco 20minutes ago
[05:18] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: I suspect Keybuk knows all of unicode, or at least large chunks of it
[05:18] <Keybuk> sladen: ?
[05:19] <Keybuk> Treenaks: the pretty parts ;)
[05:19] <sladen> Keybuk: ^^ is the cisco break sequence;  I couldn't send it
[05:20] <Keybuk> is that like the old CTCP PING sladen +++ATH bug? :p
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[05:26] <Seveas> Treenaks, bug 30418
[05:26] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30418 in udev "Root moved from /dev/sda1 to /dev/sde1 in breezy->dapper upgrade" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30418
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[05:34] <HiddenWolf> Root moved?
[05:35] <HiddenWolf> ah
[05:35] <mdke> dholbach, great thanks
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[05:42] <dholbach> mdke: de rien
[05:46] <ritvik> ritvik_zzz
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[05:58] <Kamion> criawips/universe has an unsatisfied dependency on i386: libgoffice-1-1 (>= 0.1.2)
[05:58] <Kamion> libcriawipshelper0/universe has an unsatisfied dependency on i386: libgoffice-1-1 (>= 0.1.2)
[05:58] <Kamion> libcriawips0/universe has an unsatisfied dependency on i386: libgoffice-1-1 (>= 0.1.2)
[05:58] <Kamion> anyone want to look at those? removing libgoffice-1-1 now
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Kinnison] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | Soyuz rollout begins 1800 UTC, please hold of
[06:00] <pitti> Kinnison: is it ok to upload to -security?
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Kinnison] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | Soyuz rollout @ 1800 UTC, no more uploads ple
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Kinnison] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | Soyuz rollout @ 1800 UTC, no more uploads pls
[06:00] <desrt> pitti; who is mh21?
[06:01] <Kinnison> pitti: You still do that to katie
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Keybuk] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | SOYUZ ROLLOUT AT 1800UTC DO NOT UPLOAD
[06:01] <Kinnison> that's neater, thanks scott
[06:01] <pitti> desrt: it's a friend of mine, why?
[06:02] <Kamion> Kinnison: we've still been changing some overrides as of very recently
[06:02] <Kamion> Kinnison: I'm assuming you're carrying over the NEW queue and that we don't need to process it all first?
[06:02] <desrt> pitti; just filed a bug.  was wondering if he's a newcomer to the gnome scene?
[06:02] <Kamion> konq-kim          | 0.8.3-0ubuntu1     | source                                 | 3 days old
[06:02] <Kamion> konq-encrypt-menu | 0.3-0ubuntu1       | source                                 | 3 days old
[06:03] <Kamion> pybaz             | 1.5pre1-1          | all                                    | 1 day old
[06:03] <Kamion> vim               | 1:6.4-006+2ubuntu1 | all amd64 hppa i386 ia64 powerpc sparc | 1 day old
[06:03] <Kamion> python-soappy     | 0.11.3-1.4ubuntu1  | all                                    | 5 hours old
[06:03] <Kamion> ^-- current NEW queue state
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[06:05] <pitti> desrt: well, he did some private hacks here and there, so he's a bit familiar with it; and he has lots and lots of hacking experience in general
[06:06] <desrt> pitti; cool.  send him my cheers for catching my oops :)
[06:07] <Kinnison> Kamion: I'll ask elmo what he'd prefer to do
[06:07] <Kinnison> Kamion: please wait
[06:07] <Kinnison> Kamion: elmo says "I will deal with it before we move to soyuz. You can process anything you need now if it's urgent"
[06:09] <Kamion> Kinnison: there's nothing there I need
[06:09] <Kinnison> Kamion: right, elmo will deal with it all then
[06:09] <Kinnison> Kamion: so you can relaz
[06:09] <Kamion> fine, thanks
[06:09] <Kinnison> Kamion: if you feel understressed, feel free to come over to the office and laugh at us as we do our headless chicken impressions
[06:09] <Kamion> I think that making further efforts to spread the death plague to you lot might not be the best idea
[06:10] <Kamion> much though it might amuse from a distance
=== Kinnison grins
[06:10] <Amaranth> how many people ended up getting that?
[06:11] <Kamion> Amaranth: getting what?
[06:11] <Amaranth> whatever is going around
[06:11] <Amaranth> sounds like a pretty nasty flu
[06:11] <Kamion> Amaranth: about three-quarters of the Canonical distro team
[06:12] <zul> i blame billie g
[06:12] <Kamion> so 12 or 13 or so
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[06:13] <Amaranth> ouch
[06:13] <pitti> desrt: I'll do once I'm back home :)
[06:13] <Amaranth> i hope it wasn't anything like the one that was going around here a month or so ago
[06:14] <Amaranth> i was completely down for 4 days
[06:14] <Amaranth> although that was probably all the cold pills and cough syrup
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[06:20] <fabbione> E: Couldn't find package libavahi-compat-howl-dev
[06:21] <fabbione> gobby B-D on libobby
[06:21] <fabbione> obby B-D on that
[06:22] <seb128> we don't package the howl compat stuff 
[06:22] <Keybuk> REMOVE GOBBY!  QUICKLY!
[06:22] <Kamion> how did the current obby ever build then?
[06:23] <Kamion> which it manifestly has
[06:23] <dholbach> Kamion: thanks for noting - will  rebuilt criawips.
[06:23] <Kamion> libavahi-compat-howl-dev has never been in the archive AFAICT
[06:24] <tepsipakki> Mithrandir: what was that firewire-thing that you wanted to be tested a few days back?
[06:25] <tepsipakki> I'm now able to do that
[06:26] <mdz> Kamion: obby didn't used to require avahi/howl
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:pitti] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | SOYUZ ROLLOUT AT 1700UTC DO NOT UPLOAD
[06:27] <Kamion> ah, I see, the current version of obby has never built
[06:27] <Kamion> only a previous version
[06:27] <ogra> it wasnt supposed to be synced :/
[06:27] <ogra> obviously my fuckup :(
[06:27] <pitti> ogra: upload a fix :-P
[06:27] <Mithrandir> tepsipakki: already done, but please do test that the current daily live cd works for you.  If not, tell me.
[06:28] <Mithrandir> pitti: uh, 1700?
[06:28] <ogra> apparently :(
[06:28] <Mithrandir> gnnr
[06:28] <pitti> Mithrandir: just adapted the topic to reality :/
[06:28] <mdz> Kinnison: ...
[06:29] <Kinnison> please wait
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Kinnison] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | SOYUZ ROLLOUT AT 1800UTC, UPLOADS QUEUED
[06:30] <pitti> Kinnison: ok, sorry, somebody just mentioned that uploads were not working again any more
[06:30] <pitti> s/again//
[06:30] <desrt> soyuz = fear
[06:30] <Kinnison> pitti: whoever said that is labouring under a misapprehension
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[06:31] <Keybuk> Kinnison: jbailey says you told him not to make an upload
[06:31] <Keybuk> (and showed us the /msg where you said this)
[06:31] <Kinnison> I told him it wasn't worthwhile if it wasn't essential
=== kiko laughs
[06:31] <kiko> you guys make storms in teapots
[06:31] <Keybuk> "make hppa work" seems quite essential ?
[06:31] <Kamion> kiko: this particular one was kind of important to get in before the deadline
[06:31] <kiko> well
[06:31] <Kamion> since the port in question will not be able to fix the issue for some time
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[06:32] <mdz> hppa can suffer
[06:32] <kiko> then upload it -- but do note that hppa builds will not work for a while.
[06:32] <tepsipakki> Mithrandir: but what was the command, /lib/udev/... something ?-)
[06:32] <Keybuk> so can we upload, or can we not upload?  and if we can, for how long?
[06:32] <kiko> you can upload up to 18:00
[06:32] <kiko> as we agreed before
[06:32] <Kinnison> Indeed, we will queue uploads after that
[06:32] <mdz> but be sensible
[06:33] <kiko> correct.
[06:33] <mdz> don't upload something which will take hours to build
[06:33] <Kinnison> but at 18:00 the buildds are being disabled, etc
[06:33] <Keybuk> ok, then Kinnison shouldn't have put "no more uploads" in the topic :)
[06:33] <ogra> Keybuk, that was pitti
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[06:33] <Mithrandir> tepsipakki: /lib/udev/path_id /dev/firewiredevice
[06:33] <kiko> excuse Kinnison we're a bit busy preparing right now
[06:33] <Keybuk> * Kinnison [Topic]  + no more uploads ple
[06:33] <Kinnison> Look, it's irrelevant, let's just drop this conversation because it's wasting people's time
[06:33] <kiko> right
[06:33] <kiko> see you all on the other side
[06:33] <Keybuk> have fun :)
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | SOYUZ ROLLOUT AT 1800UTC, UPLOADS QUEUED
[06:33] <mdz> (breezy is old news)
[06:34] <HiddenWolf> mdz: no, really. ;)
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[06:43] <Kinnison> Soyuz rollout messages will be provided in #SoyuzRollout -- That is a moderated channel so we'll try and keep it neat
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[06:44] <seb128> oh, double click on a chan name do /join, nice xchat-gnome :)
[06:44] <pitti> seb128: xchat has that option, too :)
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[06:45] <seb128> pitti: ah, didn't know, I double clicked to select it in fact :)
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[06:56] <fabbione> Kinnison: are you going to wait for the buildd to flush the queue or are you going to close * down at 18:00 ?
[06:56] <fabbione> i need to know if i have to stop my buildd now or wait for the first reject.
[06:56] <Kinnison> umm, pretty much close down at 18:00
[06:57] <fabbione> ok
[06:57] <Kinnison> We're certainly stopping cron.unchecked then
[06:58] <fabbione> ok
[06:59] <fabbione> both of them will stop with the next uploads,.. if they can get in good... otherwise tough
[06:59] <ogra> slomo_, ping
[07:03] <Keybuk> 2s out!  damn
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[07:07] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I have the output of udevmonitor -e
[07:07] <Keybuk> Treenaks: does the joystick (probably the /inputX UDEV event) already have PHYSDEVDRIVER=usbhid or something?
[07:08] <Treenaks> yes
[07:09] <Keybuk> cool
[07:09] <Keybuk> fixed that already then
[07:09] <Treenaks> NAME="Logitech Logitech RumblePad 2 USB"
[07:09] <Treenaks> wow.. it knows that
[07:10] <Keybuk> the funny thing is that's hardcoded in the device
[07:10] <Treenaks> cool
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:desrt] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Flight CD 3 released | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | SOYUZ ROLLOUT IN PROGRESS, UPLOADS QUEUED | What revolution?
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[07:34] <Mithrandir> seb128: should I whine at you or dholbach about icons looking weird?
[07:34] <Mithrandir> (missing thumbnails and some ugly default icons)
[07:35] <seb128> dholbach is doing most of the work on icon stuff nowadays
[07:35] <dholbach> that was fixed in libgnomeui recently
[07:36] <Keybuk> does dholbach deal with all packages beginning "libg" and you deal with "g" ?
[07:37] <dholbach> Keybuk: no
[07:37] <Keybuk> how do you split it up?
[07:37] <Kamion> lucky there aren't so many packages beginning 'u', I guess
[07:37] <Keybuk> who does u?
[07:39] <Kamion> you
[07:39] <seb128> dholbach just won the "x"
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[07:40] <delire> hmm, new Novell screenies look v'nice: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/
[07:41] <Mithrandir> what's the command line tool to get the mime type of a file?
[07:41] <delire> icons have had a complete workover.. they using tango?
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[07:42] <Mithrandir> they're using jpegs for screenshots?
[07:43] <delire> hehe it would appear so.. suspicious
[07:44] <HiddenWolf> delire: they are *mockups*
[07:44] <HiddenWolf> delire: IE, a vision of how it should or could look, rather than how it actually looks.
[07:44] <delire> HiddenWolf: hmm that would explain why they look so good.
[07:45] <delire> HiddenWolf: i realise what a mockup is.. so fixated was i upon the images i didn't see the word "mockup" itself :/
[07:45] <delire> gorgeous nonetheless.
[07:45] <Keybuk> shiny
[07:45] <HiddenWolf> delire: they should be quite possible.
[07:45] <HiddenWolf> looks quite polished indeed.
[07:46] <Keybuk> looks like a total rip-off of Vista
[07:46] <delire> Mithrandir: could you use 'file' +/or 'extract'?
[07:46] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: hey, if it works...
[07:46] <delire> Keybuk: wouldn't know, i've yet to see screenshots of it
[07:46] <Mithrandir> delire: no, there's a gnome-ish tool to do it.
[07:46] <HiddenWolf> I thought vista was a lot more blinig-ish, last I checked
[07:47] <Keybuk> also the little icon in the bottom-left looks more Sun-ish than Novell-ish
[07:47] <Mithrandir> delire: basically, I wonder why gnome-vfs seems to think an attachment I downloaded is some kind of a movie rather than a tnef
[07:47] <delire> Mithrandir: for interfacing with the gnome-mime-data db? i don't know..
[07:47] <delire> Mithrandir: hehe yes, a good question.
[07:47] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: nah, is reasonably elegant
[07:48] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: I don't trust that new "banner" thing MS has got going.
[07:48] <Mithrandir> delire: I found it; gnomevfs-info
[07:48] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: looks utterly unworkable to me.
[07:48] <delire> it does look like they are using Tango.. nice to see the awful old gnome ~/ icon gone from a gnome desktop.
[07:48] <Treenaks> delire: aww.. I liked it ;)
[07:48] <HiddenWolf> delire: yeah, go figure, novell started the tango project and funds it.
[07:48] <delire> Treenaks: hehe yes, for *sentimental reasons* i would guess ;)
[07:49] <delire> HiddenWolf: a logical connection..
[07:49] <Treenaks> delire: 'Those who forget their past are destined to re-live it' or something like that
[07:49] <delire> that Novell desktop does seem a tad 'Blue'. why so many desktop environments default to this scheme i don't know. 
[07:50] <delire> Treenaks: and those who relive the past are probably already dead..
[07:50] <HiddenWolf> delire: blue is a color that is linked to calm, serenity, clear days, happy emotions, and upper class.
[07:50] <Treenaks> and Windows crashing
[07:50] <delire> HiddenWolf: blue blood perhaps, yes.
[07:50] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: So what's wrong with brown? :)
[07:51] <delire> HiddenWolf: it is in fact sky blue that is linked to calm. 'navy blue' evokes agitation and nervousness in many prisoner test cases.
[07:51] <HiddenWolf> well there you have it. :)
[07:51] <Treenaks> we want GREEN windows :)
[07:52] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: a lot, but I like it.
[07:52] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: skin it.
[07:52] <delire> purple apparently is the colour inspiring thought, and intellectual rigour. though purple for a desktop is a big call.
[07:52] <HiddenWolf> delire: you'd have to shoot me before I'd use purple.
[07:52] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: pink, maybe ;)
[07:52] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: always, anytime.
[07:53] <delire> Treenaks: pink would gain you a small but very committed audience.. 
[07:53] <HiddenWolf> delire: heh, that's what he's getting at. ;)
[07:53] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: yes, the little girls! :P
[07:53] <delire> Treenaks: speaking of green, a new Cinelerra theme is completely green. called "Greenelerra" no less.
[07:53] <delire> HiddenWolf: ;)
=== HiddenWolf watches Queen of the Desert one more time
[07:54] <delire> Treenaks: those using it tend to make environmental documentaries. i'm lying of course.
[07:54] <Treenaks> delire: scary (found a screenshot)
[07:54] <HiddenWolf> delire: so, will we make dapper look all spiffy? ;)
[07:54] <delire> Treenaks: it looks a hell of alot better, but it's interesting how there are some colours that force themselves upon you and some that don't.
[07:54] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: All colors of the rainbow
[07:55] <Treenaks> delire: I know
[07:55] <Treenaks> delire: I know quite a bit of color theory :)
[07:55] <MisterN> Treenaks: no brown, then
[07:55] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: we. want. pink.
[07:56] <Treenaks> MisterN: why not? it's very calming :)
[07:56] <delire> HiddenWolf: sheesh, "spiffy" is a bad start.. i think brown is working well. Brown isn't a colour associated with being "refreshing" but that is exactly the response i get from so many when i roll our Ubuntu on their machine.
[07:56] <MisterN> Treenaks: ain't in the rainbow
[07:56] <Treenaks> MisterN: so?
[07:56] <Treenaks> doesn't mean it's not a color
[07:56] <MisterN> of course
[07:56] <HiddenWolf> delire: it's just that dapper does look allmost exactly like my warty's
[07:57] <HiddenWolf> delire: We need some new art!
[07:57] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: no, the shade of brown changed a bit, and we lost the naked women along the way :(
[07:57] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: which is a total plus!
[07:58] <MisterN> when i upgraded from breezy to dapper i thought the gtk+ theme changed a tiny bit. and i disliked this tiny bit so i switched to mist.
[07:58] <HiddenWolf> MisterN: it did, clearlooks is now using cairo for almost everything, and has gotten slower to prove it. :)
[07:59] <MisterN> HiddenWolf: heh well... and... well... i didn't like how it looked. my machine's fast enough *g*
[07:59] <delire> HiddenWolf: i agree.. frankly those icons need a total overhaul. they really throw Ubuntu back in time.
[08:00] <HiddenWolf> MisterN: machines are never fast enough, developers always manage to choke em up. :)
[08:00] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: All we need is good RENDER acceleration (EXA) in all drivers
[08:00] <MisterN> HiddenWolf: true enough.
[08:00] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: then Cairo is fast again
[08:00] <delire> HiddenWolf: people hang off the screenshots on osdir.. if they look just as before then fewer people will adopt and/or upgrade.
[08:00] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: on _all_ machines, even old ones
[08:00] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: I guess you could dream about that. ;)
[08:01] <MisterN> cairo would probably be better when using GL which is experimental for now
[08:01] <MisterN> (better=faster)
[08:01] <delire> HiddenWolf: i'd like to see pretty solid beagle integration and an option for composite mode on install if direct rendering is detected. that'd be a start.
[08:01] <Treenaks> MisterN: EXA would be enough for 'most' cases
[08:01] <MisterN> Treenaks: hmm k.
[08:02] <delire> i definitely think we could take a leaf from Novell Desktop where those panel balloon 'applets' are concerned. they are good.
[08:03] <HiddenWolf> Hm
[08:03] <HiddenWolf> When breezy and gnome 2.12 where coming up, I was all excited.
[08:03] <HiddenWolf> For 2.14/dapper not so.
[08:03] <HiddenWolf> Can't pinpoint why.
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[08:03] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: you haven't seen enough new l33tness on the planet :)
[08:04] <delire> nautilus's old icons that appear to have absolutely nothing to do with the broader Ubuntu theme. they should finally be laid to rest.
[08:04] <HiddenWolf> delire: that's all just waiting on $someone to step up and design something.
[08:04] <HiddenWolf> delire: not many people can/will do that, unfortunatly
[08:04] <delire> HiddenWolf: i thought there was a bounty on those that was fulfilled
[08:05] <delire> "Ubuntu Artwork"
[08:05] <HiddenWolf> delire: I must have missed that.
[08:06] <HiddenWolf> delire: point still stands, someone who can do it has to step up
[08:06] <delire> hmm i can't find it now.. will keep looking.
[08:07] <delire> HiddenWolf: really i think Ubuntu is in a perfect position to offer the challenge to a Design Academy as part of a student project.
[08:07] <delire> it's not everyday that students have an opportunity to design an icon set for an operating system.
[08:07] <HiddenWolf> delire: why not pitch the idea to some people then? mdz, Kamion, sabdfl, others?
[08:08] <delire> HiddenWolf: perhaps i will do this. ubuntu-devel list?
[08:08] <HiddenWolf> yeah, with a cc to the art-team list, I guess.
[08:09] <delire> HiddenWolf: good thought..
[08:11] <delire> sadly while art.gnome.org has a few contrib icon sets, none of them really seem to "fit" ubuntu.
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[08:11] <HiddenWolf> delire: and most are incomplete to an extent.
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[08:12] <delire> HiddenWolf: it would seem so..
[08:13] <delire> HiddenWolf: what would you like to see change? anything specific?
[08:13] <HiddenWolf> delire: nothing. I'm not an artist, so I'll keep out of it. save that what ubuntu is currently using does not feel modern at all.
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[08:22] <delire> HiddenWolf: right.
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[08:25] <pmjdebruijn> hi
[08:25] <pmjdebruijn> I'm trying to create an Ubuntu package for a GNOME application
[08:25] <pmjdebruijn> but the GConf schemas installed in the Makefile are ofcourse not installed
[08:25] <pmjdebruijn> how do I accomplish this in my .deb
[08:27] <Keybuk> are the installed into debian/$pkgname when you do $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/$pkgname ?
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[08:28] <pmjdebruijn> Keybuk, the schemas are installed into /usr/share/gconf/schemas when I install my .deb
[08:28] <pmjdebruijn> but they are not installed into gconf itself
[08:28] <Treenaks> pmjdebruijn: do you dh_gconf ? (I read something about that a few days ago(
[08:28] <Keybuk> oh, no idea
[08:29] <pmjdebruijn> Treenaks, thanks
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[08:50] <pitti> Riddell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/packages/xpdf-poppler-3.0.1.tar.gz, in case you want to forward this to that Gentoo guy
[08:51] <Riddell> pitti: thanks
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[09:02] <delire> hehe "If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity"
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[09:22] <delire> will dmix still be used as the native ALSA sound mixer in Dapper? still at a loss to understand how apps that explicitly use /dev/dsp (skype/gaim/numerous others) can happily co-exist with ALSA friendly apps in a typical modern desktop computing session (listen to music, receive call in skype, audio email notification from system).
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[09:24] <Amaranth> delire: Only one app can use /dev/dsp at a time so those are still not going to work.
[09:25] <Amaranth> delire: But apps that use ALSA should work fine.
[09:25] <delire> do you see any solution for this? this has been a showstopper 'bug' for many Ubuntu adopters, and linux adopters generally.
[09:26] <Amaranth> delire: Make developers fix their code.
[09:26] <delire> sure, this should at least be communicated to the user. i feel it would be wise to somehow notify the user that an app that explicitly writes to /dev/dsp is not compatible with ALSA..
[09:27] <delire> skype for instance, is considered by millions to be a 'vital' desktop application.
[09:27] <Amaranth> flash appearently uses /dev/dsp as well
[09:27] <HiddenWolf> skype is a POS with regards to playing nice. :/
[09:27] <delire> yes it does..
[09:27] <siretart> delire: tell them to you ekiga, or better tell skype to fix their code
[09:28] <Amaranth> i think there was some work on making it possible for multiple apps to use /dev/dsp but it was decided that it wasn't possible
[09:28] <HiddenWolf> siretart: non-skype can't communicate with skype
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[09:28] <delire> siretart: skype has been told this again and again. they do not listen, but competing VOIP solutions are not in the foreground enough for people to bother sticking with poor performance on Linux.
[09:28] <delire> poor skype performance..
[09:29] <siretart> delire: thats one reason why I don't use skype anymore
[09:29] <Amaranth> gizmo, google talk, ekiga
[09:29] <delire> regardless, from an adopters perspective, this is a showstopper. worse, most if not all new users of Ubuntu will not know why their app doesn't play nice with ALSA
[09:29] <Amaranth> this are all better solutions
[09:29] <Amaranth> and they can even all talk to each other, i think
[09:29] <delire> Amaranth: now that is interesting.
[09:29] <Amaranth> i know gizmo and gtalk can talk to each other
[09:30] <siretart> delire: in fact, I didn't have problems on my computer using skype along with other applications on my hardware
[09:30] <delire> if users could even import buddies from Skype to another IM/VoIP client, we'd be rolling.
[09:30] <Amaranth> delire: not possible, unless those buggies where using the other client
[09:30] <siretart> skype is overrated. really
[09:30] <Amaranth> delire: because Skype uses a proprietary protocol
[09:30] <delire> siretart: can you make a skype call and receive a system notification, or while having xmms playing at a low volume in the bg?
[09:30] <delire> Amaranth: yes it does.
[09:30] <siretart> delire: sure
[09:31] <siretart> delire: you just need a soundcard which does real hardware mixing, like sb live
[09:31] <delire> siretart: right, which cuts out most portables.
[09:31] <Amaranth> siretart, delire: Or dmix
[09:31] <siretart> delire: do you have a proposal how to solve this technically?
=== delire looks at ekiga
[09:32] <Amaranth> but neither one of those fixes /dev/dsp
[09:34] <delire> siretart: no, i've just started looking into it really. i work in the educational sector, mostly as a teacher, though often in areas of Linux/FOSS advocacy. this has come up in the past as a complaint while a school was performing feasibility analysis, "Linux has broken audio".
[09:35] <delire> siretart: so they defaulted to Apple machines, which suffer no such issues.
[09:38] <siretart> better don't try to run broken applications
[09:39] <delire> siretart: sure, one can encourage them to avoid the large number of applications which do not play well with ALSA. this however cannot be enforced and being non-developers, they are simply unaware why it doesn't work. this is a problem as Linux (and all the good ALSA apps) are taken down with it.
[09:41] <siretart> delire: what 'large number of applications' are you talking about. up to now, you only mentioned skype
[09:41] <siretart> even doom3 or quake4 play nicely alsa
[09:41] <delire> realistically it will be several years before third-party developers like those at Skype or Nero, or Alias get it together and realise that ALSA really isn't an option.
[09:41] <Simira> are London people out now?
[09:41] <delire> siretart: sure, there are many games that do work. Flash is a fairly important client for many users. 
[09:42] <delire> siretart: there are several games that don't however.. i forget which but it comes up from time to time. 
[09:42] <pmjdebruijn> delire, why isn't ALSA really an option?
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[09:42] <delire> i believe gaim is another.
[09:43] <delire> pmjdebruijn: i am saying that there should be no choice as to whether or not to use ALSA. just use it.
[09:43] <pmjdebruijn> delire, oh like that... right... indeed...
[09:43] <siretart> delire: gaim uses esd and has no problems with alsa
[09:43] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, here ? :)
[09:43] <delire> in other words, and yes i put it badly, "ALSA isn't an option" - it's the only way.
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[09:43] <kiko> ALSA is the future
[09:44] <Amaranth> ALSA is the only thing we have, and it's great
[09:44] <Amaranth> people just need to use it
[09:44] <siretart> people DO use it
[09:44] <delire> agreed, if only big name third-party developers that want to support Linux, would use it.
[09:44] <kiko> why don't we drop oss?
[09:44] <Amaranth> skype and flash and gaim don't :P
[09:44] <kiko> that
[09:44] <Amaranth> kiko: because programs still use it
[09:44] <kiko> 'd fix the problem :)
[09:44] <delire> those three applications are critical for many users..
=== kiko trolls
[09:45] <Amaranth> kiko: only if linus did it
[09:45] <kiko> indeed.
[09:45] <delire> hehe
[09:45] <siretart> delire: sorry. I don't have the impression that ppl who think that applications like skype and flash are critical would want something else than windows anyway.
[09:45] <kiko> hey skype is useful
[09:46] <delire> ridiculous as it may sound, it would be good to have an audio router/wrapper that passed writes to /dev/dsp to ALSA subsystem instead..
[09:46] <siretart> kiko: skype is crap. it would be useful if it would work
[09:46] <delire> siretart: you underestimate many many Ubuntu users.
[09:46] <kiko> it works for me somewhat
[09:46] <kiko> (and it's used daily to harass launchpad people)
[09:50] <siretart> delire: dropping alsa is not an option, because alsa has many many features that oss does not have.
[09:51] <siretart> delire: oss is supported via alsa oss emulation. this is intended as interim solution for legacy application which need to be ported
[09:54] <delire> siretart: i was not suggesting dropping ALSA at all.
[09:55] <delire> siretart: i was saying that application developers should know that they must use ALSA, that writing to the sound device directly would render their project considered 'broken'.
[09:56] <pmjdebruijn> siretart, that OSS emulation breaks some appjes, like the binary Quake 3, because they use direct memory mappings for performance
[09:56] <pmjdebruijn> siretart, anyway the icculus.org folks fixed that, now q3 uses ALSA
[09:57] <delire> pmjdebruijn: i thought that was only their distribution of q3.. did that move upstream to idsoftware's binary?
[09:57] <pmjdebruijn> delire, no
[09:57] <delire> AFAIK they are still distributing the client..
[09:57] <delire> right
[09:57] <pmjdebruijn> delire, I should have said ioq3 now uses ALSA
[09:58] <siretart> delire: you think skype wouldn't know that?
=== jdahlin [n=jdahlin@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[09:59] <delire> siretart: i have no reason to think that they do know that.
[09:59] <neuralis> siretart: hey there
[10:00] <neuralis> siretart: are you still planning on getting NetbootManagement in for dapper?
[10:00] <siretart> delire: http://support.skype.com/index.php?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=189&nav=+%26gt%3B+%3Ca+href%3D%27index.php%3F_a%3Dknowledgebase%26_j%3Dsubcat%26_i%3D11%27%3ESkype+for+Linux%3C%2Fa%3E
[10:00] <siretart> neuralis: I don't think I will have time left do do that :(
[10:00] <siretart> neuralis: things have not been going as I wanted them to go :(
[10:01] <neuralis> siretart: that's alright, I just wanted to check.
[10:01] <delire> siretart: good to see.. 
[10:02] <delire> siretart: maybe i can give skype a go again now ;)
[10:02] <siretart> delire: they have this entry for AGES. I lost all hope that they are really working on that
[10:03] <delire> siretart: last time i used skype it absolutely locked down the card during a call.. i'll try it again.
=== delire notes Audacity doesn't seem to be ALSA aware.
=== ozamosi [n=nnozamos@h205n3c1o1049.bredband.skanova.com]  has joined #ubuntu-devel
[10:07] <delire> how ridiculous. from their page: "Audacity can use ALSA natively if you compile it to use PortAudio v19 instead of the default, v18. Note that v19 is still evolving and not as well tested, but it is the only way that Audacity supports ALSA."
[10:09] <delire> .. the only capable audio-editor on Linux (outside of the megalithic Ardour)..
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[10:12] <kiko> mdz, what is this I hear about a bald fabbione?
[10:13] <mdz> kiko: we have a wager
[10:15] <kiko> thanks for your support
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[10:50] <jdub> Generating locales... en_AU.UTF-8... up-to-date
[10:50] <jdub> elite!
[10:50] <tseng> jdub: Cancel, hey?
[10:51] <jdub> hrm?
[10:51] <tseng> i find en_{AU,CA}.UTF-8 locales amusing
[10:51] <jdub> oh
[10:51] <delire> does that exist?
[10:51] <\sh> uh..oh...everyone is working...soyuz lands...ubuntuusers.de is moving to another location...rock
[10:52] <tseng> en_UK ill buy
[10:52] <jdub> up-to-date <- the interesting bit
=== delire checks
[10:53] <kiko> soyuz soyuz soyuz
[10:53] <delire> what is all the fuss about.. 
[10:53] <\sh> kiko: tell kinnisson he should delete the logfiles or he should move to canada to get more space on the target :)P
[10:53] <kiko> heh
=== \sh has to much java in his head
[10:54] <\sh> s/to/too/
[10:56] <mdke> jbailey, around?
[10:56] <mdke> jdub, did you see my mail about yelp customisations?
=== mpt sprinkles some soyuz sauce on his breakfast
[10:58] <mdke> jbailey, unping
[10:59] <Kinnison> mpt: mmm tastes like binary packages
[11:04] <pmjdebruijn> tseng, http://www.xs4all.nl/~bruijn9/temp/corbicula_0.0.20060203-4_i386.deb
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[11:08] <Simira> jdub :) Where in the world are you today?
[11:09] <\sh> ok...
[11:09] <\sh> going to bed and movie time
[11:10] <\sh> kiko: Kinnison: good luck with the migration to soyuz :)
[11:10] <kiko> thanks \sh 
[11:10] <kiko> you should try watching the movie before going to bed
[11:10] <\sh> kiko: well..I'm going to lay down in bed and watch the movie...but I know me, in the middle of the movie, I'm falling asleep :)
[11:11] <kiko> I used to do that all the time.
[11:11] <kiko> then I put the TV in the room where the couch is
[11:11] <kiko> now, I wake up on the couch
[11:11] <kiko> I feel like I'm 30
[11:12] <Simira> :)
[11:12] <\sh> kiko: hehehe..
[11:12] <\sh> kiko: well..that's life..and think about me...I'm 35 :)
[11:12] <kiko> oh, that's right, I am 30.
[11:13] <Simira> \sh: THAT old... 0_o
[11:13] <Simira> ;p
[11:13] <Simira> \sh: are you in London?
[11:13] <\sh> Simira: no :)
[11:14] <\sh> Simira: just turned 35 last month
[11:14] <Simira> \sh: oh, so you just got that old. How does it feel?
=== Simira feels like 35 also, just didn't get there yet
[11:16] <\sh> Simira: well, it feels like 34 and 12 months...but it's more difficult to find a job
[11:16] <Simira> \sh: more? Isn't it just difficult, period?
[11:18] <\sh> Simira: well...it was difficult during the dot.com crash periode, but now it's _much more_ difficult because of the age 
[11:19] <\sh> looks like, that I have to do some more freelancing work...
[11:19] <\sh> anyways...bed is waiting...
[11:19] <Simira> \sh: actually it got much better here during the last year. If you're stuck, move to Norway. It's actually a lack of people in IT now
[11:19] <Simira> sleep well
[11:20] <\sh> Simira: I'm waiting for some updates of my job applications next week..so I have to see what is happening anyways...
[11:21] <\sh> ok...cu in a couple of hours
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[11:33] <Mez> infinity/lamont/someone who knows a bit about the buildds - ping
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[11:39] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, here brother?
[11:39] <AlinuxOS> or someone who can tell me how can we include georgian fonts in "main" for ubuntu?
=== Kinnison thought you'd had it explained very carefully to you before
[11:40] <AlinuxOS> Kinnison, ;)
[11:40] <AlinuxOS> hello
[11:40] <AlinuxOS> si I'd like to tell you that...we have talked with font's author..
[11:40] <Kinnison> Telling me won't help, I'm not an Ubuntu developer
[11:40] <AlinuxOS> and he is agree to make them GPLed...
[11:41] <AlinuxOS> but he is asking us , how and in wchich form we must do it...
[11:41] <AlinuxOS> what about mjg59 ? I guess he is devel ?
[11:41] <AlinuxOS> no?
[11:42] <Kinnison> He is, but he concentrates on power management
[11:42] <Kinnison> Most of the ubuntu developers are asleep or going to be very soon
[11:42] <Kinnison> because it's 22:42 local time at their conference
[11:42] <Kinnison> Also, the Ubuntu archive is moving to launchpad tonight
[11:42] <Kinnison> so I think they're probably all taking a well earned break
[11:43] <AlinuxOS> so what can I do?
[11:43] <AlinuxOS> when can I talk with them?
[11:43] <kiko> write to ubuntu-devel I'd suggest
[11:43] <AlinuxOS> kiko, I've alredy written...
[11:43] <kiko> really? and what happened?
[11:43] <AlinuxOS> 2 days I'm waiting for an answer.
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[11:45] <AlinuxOS> kiko, I know that you are lauchpad developer :) is not true ? :)
[11:46] <kiko> that is quite true
=== Mez yawns
[11:48] <AlinuxOS> ;) how can I apply for a couple of fonts GPL or LGPL text ? there is some ritual to do ? or what ?
[11:48] <AlinuxOS> I'm quite confused :)
[11:48] <kiko> AlinuxOS, I'd suggest talking to dholbach or ogra on monday
[11:49] <AlinuxOS> sd-tux, sign this nicks :) We must ping them monday :)
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[11:52] <kiko> they are the best guys to start off talking to
[11:54] <torkel> AlinuxOS: you can also check: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#FontException and http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#Fonts
[11:54] <AlinuxOS> http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=16645  torkel
[11:55] <AlinuxOS> so author can add a text behind a fonts download link... with specification that fonts are gpl...
[11:55] <AlinuxOS> and + link to GPL license.
[11:58] <torkel> AlinuxOS: another link which describes howto use gpl in your fonts: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html
[12:00] <AlinuxOS> torkel, thank you a lot....
[12:00] <AlinuxOS> we are writing a letter :)
[12:01] <AlinuxOS> to this guy....
[12:01] <AlinuxOS> ;)