| lukacu | meeting? | 12:02 |
|---|---|---|
| hno73 | Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda | 12:02 |
| lukacu | artnay? | 12:03 |
| === kafeine [n=kori@87.126.78.83] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === ealden [n=ealden@203.76.211.109] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| hno73 | Trying again: Hi! | 12:11 |
| hno73 | The agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda | 12:11 |
| === Ubuntuser_Ba [n=deb-user@ubuntu/member/ubuntuser] has joined #Ubuntu-meeting | ||
| hno73 | I got one positive comment to the wiki restructuring and zero negative on the list | 12:13 |
| hno73 | so I take that as 'ok, we don't mind' :) | 12:13 |
| kafeine | i'm ok | 12:14 |
| kafeine | :D | 12:14 |
| hno73 | Right, then we can move to point 2 :) | 12:15 |
| lukacu | :) | 12:15 |
| lukacu | great | 12:16 |
| hno73 | The todo list | 12:16 |
| === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| hno73 | jsgotangco: hey! | 12:16 |
| jsgotangco | hno73, hi! | 12:16 |
| jsgotangco | umm is there a meeting? | 12:16 |
| kafeine | yep | 12:16 |
| hno73 | art team meeting? | 12:16 |
| jsgotangco | oh cool | 12:17 |
| === jsgotangco didn't know | ||
| jsgotangco | but since i have admin to art.ubuntu.com might as well jump in :) | 12:17 |
| lmanul | Hi all :) | 12:17 |
| === lmanul is Manu Cornet | ||
| hno73 | jsgotangco, lmanul: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda | 12:17 |
| === jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco | ||
| hno73 | Hi lmanul :) | 12:18 |
| kafeine | mm, hno73, can you point me to the ToDo since the link at the Agenda seems broken | 12:18 |
| hno73 | kafeine: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/TodoList | 12:18 |
| hno73 | sorry, that's my 'restructuring' :p | 12:19 |
| jsgotangco | ouch that's a lot of TODO | 12:19 |
| hno73 | or, actually, lazy wiki markup | 12:19 |
| hno73 | jsgotangco: exactly. unmanageable | 12:20 |
| hno73 | more of a general braindump area really | 12:20 |
| jsgotangco | can we make some realistic milestones per dapper dev release? | 12:20 |
| kafeine | and distribute them? | 12:21 |
| hno73 | I think we should make a few simple recommendations for the distro team | 12:21 |
| hno73 | a recommended icon set, wallpaper etc. | 12:22 |
| jsgotangco | well obviously we can't be able to do all of this with such short time and manpower | 12:22 |
| jsgotangco | i'd like to have better AUC action too | 12:22 |
| hno73 | test them together, find out what is missing | 12:22 |
| jsgotangco | but the approval process is so tedious | 12:22 |
| jsgotangco | does AndyFitz stil do stuff for Ubuntu?l | 12:23 |
| hno73 | better AUC action meaning better tools or more admin work put in? | 12:23 |
| hno73 | I'm not sure | 12:23 |
| jsgotangco | hno73, well approving and uploading submitted art is rather cumbersome for now, i've only did it like twice | 12:24 |
| hno73 | yeah. fixing it is non-trivial though. My recommendation would be a moin-based site | 12:25 |
| hno73 | It's slightly less elegant, but more flexible | 12:25 |
| hno73 | there are no admin bottlenecks | 12:25 |
| hno73 | anyone can upload content | 12:25 |
| jsgotangco | and we're used to moin clean up | 12:25 |
| hno73 | right. and we seem to be converging on moin as a standard now | 12:26 |
| hno73 | http://www.ubuntu.com/ is moin | 12:26 |
| jsgotangco | was it completely migrated? | 12:27 |
| hno73 | The main thing that would be missing would be voting and ranking of stuff | 12:27 |
| hno73 | it is now, yes | 12:27 |
| === Ubuntuser_Ba [n=deb-user@ubuntu/member/ubuntuser] has left #Ubuntu-meeting ["Fui!"] | ||
| hno73 | if you didn't notice, it means it went fairly well :) | 12:28 |
| jsgotangco | well i knew from the beginning we were moving to moin, i mean we've worked in orchard, i can see the similarities :) | 12:28 |
| === jsgotangco thinks the best way to jumpstart art team is to define goals and plan of action for dapper | ||
| hno73 | About the team itself. I guess volvoguy was leading it, but isn't well. Has someone else taken over for now or is it floating freely ATM? | 12:30 |
| jsgotangco | no idea | 12:30 |
| === hno73 agrees with jsgotangco | ||
| jsgotangco | the TODO we have on the wiki is a good start, but not a great staging area | 12:31 |
| hno73 | So, proposals for dapper goals? | 12:31 |
| hno73 | some items like the wallpaper and icons will be contracted out at least in part | 12:32 |
| jsgotangco | most likely we'll not diverge much from GNOME HIG standards | 12:32 |
| hno73 | but there is example content and secondary themes | 12:32 |
| jsgotangco | is art responsible for sample content? | 12:32 |
| hno73 | No, I am :) | 12:32 |
| === jsgotangco thought it was jdub's area | ||
| hno73 | but, it's an easy place to contribute | 12:33 |
| jsgotangco | sample content - what does it consist? even media files? | 12:33 |
| hno73 | making some nice OOo documents should be a doable task | 12:33 |
| jsgotangco | oh okay, so its an artwork task for dapper | 12:34 |
| hno73 | yes, but music and video is difficult to find in high quality + free license | 12:34 |
| hno73 | it can be, if we decide so | 12:34 |
| jsgotangco | how about just doing some desktop action in istanbul? | 12:34 |
| hno73 | we can select 5-10 wallpapers for a start | 12:34 |
| === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| kafeine | istanbul is pretty buggy | 12:35 |
| hno73 | that sounds good, any experience with that | 12:35 |
| hno73 | mhz! | 12:35 |
| jsgotangco | well i would think volvoguy's svg wallpapers are a good candidate | 12:35 |
| mhz | hno73: yes, I just got back to the computer | 12:35 |
| mhz | hno73: sorry | 12:35 |
| jsgotangco | i can try the one in dapper, the one in breezy isn't so hot | 12:36 |
| hno73 | mhz: no worries, nice to see you :) | 12:36 |
| mhz | thx | 12:36 |
| hno73 | I just got back from the distro-sprint of death https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-February/000066.html | 12:37 |
| jsgotangco | oh the distro sprint of death is now the common tag for it | 12:37 |
| hno73 | jsgotangco: sounds cool. We should have a soundtrack over it | 12:37 |
| hno73 | yeah, I think so | 12:38 |
| hno73 | It might have been food poisoning. I seem to have escaped ok | 12:38 |
| jsgotangco | thats too bad | 12:39 |
| jsgotangco | me and sabdfl were talking about it yesterday (he was here) | 12:39 |
| hno73 | Ah right, how was your meeting? | 12:39 |
| jsgotangco | pretty good he's upbeat | 12:39 |
| jsgotangco | i got to meet malcolm and hande too | 12:40 |
| jsgotangco | they're in tokyo now | 12:40 |
| hno73 | cool, hectic schedule | 12:40 |
| hno73 | So, I've been playing with icons today. Who has tried Yasis? | 12:40 |
| hno73 | what do you guys use? | 12:40 |
| === jsgotangco haven't | ||
| jsgotangco | Yasis is an icon theme? | 12:41 |
| === mhz uses Tango and Gartoon | ||
| === jsgotangco has only used Tango | ||
| hno73 | yes http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/1168 | 12:41 |
| Kyral | Tango++ | 12:41 |
| jsgotangco | but it doesn't fit our brown scheme | 12:41 |
| Kyral | and ++Tango :D | 12:41 |
| jsgotangco | (needs working) | 12:41 |
| hno73 | Tango is a bit too blue for Ubuntu atm though | 12:41 |
| hno73 | I like it otherwise | 12:41 |
| Kyral | Good for Kubuntu? | 12:42 |
| jsgotangco | its preety neat for KDE | 12:42 |
| hno73 | and Gartoon is of course 'owned' by ubuntu | 12:42 |
| jsgotangco | but the greenish stuff makes it look a bit like SuSE | 12:42 |
| hno73 | KDE has a wider choice of suitable sets IMO | 12:42 |
| hno73 | because kubuntu use a standard colour scheme (blue) | 12:43 |
| hno73 | while ubuntu went revolutionary brown | 12:43 |
| mhz | well, IIRC, Xubuntu default will be Tango | 12:43 |
| jsgotangco | that would be nice | 12:44 |
| === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| jsgotangco | are we really getting a Xubuntu iso? sabdfl was pitching it already | 12:44 |
| klepas | moin moin | 12:44 |
| mhz | jsgotangco: "pitching it" | 12:44 |
| mhz | ? | 12:44 |
| mhz | klepas: moin | 12:44 |
| jsgotangco | mhz, he added it on the list of other ubuntu-based distros in his presentations | 12:45 |
| === earobinson [n=earobins@64.231.170.14] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| mhz | oh, cool | 12:45 |
| hno73 | So, IMO a task for the art team can be to test various icon themes and form an recomendation | 12:45 |
| jsgotangco | well ive already tested tango... | 12:46 |
| jsgotangco | it seems to be the future | 12:46 |
| hno73 | Yasis is the most suitable I've seen so far | 12:46 |
| jsgotangco | are you thinking of adding another iconset to the distro? | 12:46 |
| hno73 | true, but we'd need to change quite a few of the blue icons | 12:46 |
| mhz | any news from the "pros" hired by Canonical? | 12:46 |
| hno73 | jsgotangco: I'm thinking of recommending a new default for dapper | 12:47 |
| jsgotangco | mhz, what they've done mostly are backgrounds | 12:47 |
| jsgotangco | hmm | 12:47 |
| mhz | jsgotangco: oh, will they do icons? | 12:47 |
| hno73 | mhz: there are people contracted to work on icons, but there isn't time to do a whole set | 12:47 |
| mhz | jsgotangco: oh, have they choosen an icon set? | 12:48 |
| hno73 | so we have to build on an existing one | 12:48 |
| hno73 | Tango is a good option | 12:48 |
| klepas | hey guys | 12:48 |
| jsgotangco | i can look into it this weekend | 12:48 |
| hno73 | Yasis and nouveXT are others | 12:48 |
| klepas | i've talked to Andy, Mark and Jeff about this artwork problem | 12:48 |
| jsgotangco | and? | 12:49 |
| hno73 | klepas: recently? | 12:49 |
| klepas | yes | 12:49 |
| klepas | just last week | 12:49 |
| klepas | and in person | 12:49 |
| hno73 | cool | 12:49 |
| jsgotangco | LCA? | 12:49 |
| klepas | yep | 12:49 |
| jsgotangco | so you saw sabdfl's ravishing new haircut | 12:49 |
| klepas | news might not be to welcome though | 12:49 |
| hno73 | klepas: go ahead | 12:50 |
| klepas | Canonical has their own hired graphic artists | 12:50 |
| jsgotangco | oh we're aware of that | 12:50 |
| klepas | in fact they are most likely going to hire more, especially one to make an icon set | 12:50 |
| klepas | we won't be able to say "here's our work" and it will be included | 12:51 |
| hno73 | right, but we can still make recomendations | 12:51 |
| klepas | we can still get stuff into mainstream | 12:51 |
| hno73 | klepas: we never would though | 12:51 |
| klepas | if it really good | 12:51 |
| klepas | mostly in terms of splashes, GDMs and wallpapers | 12:51 |
| hno73 | there is always a process of evaluation and comments, etc | 12:51 |
| klepas | that is true too | 12:52 |
| klepas | this basically means we can probably forget trying to regulate all art in ubuntu | 12:52 |
| klepas | at least for now | 12:52 |
| hno73 | That happens with the hired pros too, but often by phone or in person | 12:52 |
| jsgotangco | hey we still have community | 12:52 |
| hno73 | so it's faster | 12:52 |
| klepas | yep | 12:52 |
| jsgotangco | we can put more resource to AUC | 12:53 |
| klepas | but for example, our art could still easily get in | 12:53 |
| hno73 | I think we need to identify which areas we can and should focus on | 12:53 |
| klepas | even if it is not the default wallpaper for example | 12:53 |
| klepas | it could still come in as one of the two or so others | 12:53 |
| hno73 | exactly | 12:53 |
| klepas | hno73: wallpapers, splashes, GDMs and that's about it | 12:54 |
| hno73 | we are also adding 'Example Content' | 12:54 |
| hno73 | which can include wallpapers and other images | 12:54 |
| klepas | that does not mean that we can't do other stuff too, like GTK and metacity stuff, but stuff like the above would have a higher chance | 12:54 |
| jsgotangco | hno73, the example content, for example with OOo docs, we can use text from public domain | 12:54 |
| hno73 | it would be natural to take that fro the team | 12:54 |
| klepas | so, basically as the art team we have a few things to do | 12:55 |
| klepas | fix up wiki | 12:55 |
| hno73 | right, as a base, but we can then include artwork in the documents | 12:55 |
| klepas | get AUC working | 12:55 |
| klepas | and start doing some art :) | 12:55 |
| hno73 | get AUC working or replace AUC? | 12:55 |
| klepas | i'll leave that up to your imagination | 12:56 |
| klepas | :) | 12:56 |
| mhz | and the very good thing about artwork from community is that we ALWAYS provide SVG and source files :D | 12:56 |
| klepas | mhz: yep | 12:56 |
| klepas | it would be interesting to see whether we could get the XCF or PSD file for the current breezy default wallpaper | 12:56 |
| hno73 | I'm keen to separate the concepts of generating new art and selecting art for inclusion | 12:57 |
| === mhz hopes the pros understand they should also provide sources as thye work on Ubuntu (I am who I am because ...) | ||
| hno73 | the second can come from the whole FOSS world | 12:57 |
| mhz | also, Artwork team can help LoCo teams | 12:58 |
| mhz | they always need artwork | 12:58 |
| jsgotangco | mhz, with little manpower at the moment? | 12:58 |
| klepas | oh | 12:58 |
| klepas | there was a sort of request though | 12:58 |
| mhz | jsgotangco: hehehe, yes and no | 12:58 |
| klepas | of the art team | 12:58 |
| jsgotangco | we wouldnt want to spread ourselves thin :/ | 12:58 |
| hno73 | If the art team has the view they we will create art which will eventually be included in the distro as a natural process, we will see a lot of frustration and disapointment | 12:58 |
| mhz | yup | 12:59 |
| klepas | to make and manage universe art packages | 12:59 |
| klepas | Mark and Jeff really would love some themed art packages | 12:59 |
| mhz | unless we state it every where: "don't think you do this and ..." | 12:59 |
| klepas | like a modern theme or a continental theme | 12:59 |
| hno73 | fixing the accessible themes would be good too | 01:00 |
| klepas | yea | 01:00 |
| hno73 | and it should be easy because those icons are very basic | 01:01 |
| hno73 | it currently breaks in stuff like OOo and firefox | 01:01 |
| hno73 | defaulting to normal icons | 01:01 |
| klepas | have you guyes seen artnay ? | 01:01 |
| hno73 | accessibility will be installed in dapper by default, in various ways | 01:02 |
| hno73 | So it would be nice if the themes worked better | 01:02 |
| mhz | hno73: that is great! | 01:02 |
| hno73 | mhz: yep, latest news from the distro sprint :) | 01:03 |
| hno73 | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-February/014969.html | 01:03 |
| jsgotangco | the installer stuff news is great | 01:04 |
| hno73 | yep. Do we have anyone on the team who can do simple icons? | 01:05 |
| jsgotangco | well not for this cycle | 01:06 |
| klepas | hno73: what do you mean? | 01:06 |
| === jsgotangco used to be good with artowkr | ||
| hno73 | klepas: what do I mean by simple icons? | 01:07 |
| hno73 | like what is involved? | 01:07 |
| === hno73 has never made any icons :) | ||
| jsgotangco | svg makes them easier though | 01:08 |
| hno73 | but it strikes be that the high viz ones are the easiest to do | 01:08 |
| hno73 | it might even just be a question of tweaking, duplicating and symlinking a bit | 01:09 |
| klepas | what i meant are these icons for? | 01:09 |
| hno73 | the accessibility icons? Install the gnome high visibility theme to see them | 01:09 |
| mhz | hno73: how many icons would you need? | 01:10 |
| hno73 | they are very simple, high contast icons | 01:10 |
| klepas | ah, okay | 01:10 |
| hno73 | for people with poor vision | 01:10 |
| mhz | hno73: rephrase.. icons to launch apps or icons per every button in each app? | 01:10 |
| hno73 | mhz: not, sure. 20-30 perhaps and then check lot's of links and refrences | 01:11 |
| hno73 | mhz: I think 90% of the launch icons are in place | 01:11 |
| hno73 | but only 10% of the icons in the OOo and FF toolbars | 01:12 |
| hno73 | but it might just be a question of copying and renaming | 01:12 |
| hno73 | Gedit has a complete set AFAIR | 01:12 |
| === mhz needs to check agenda.. he doesn't want to say "I own it" if later he can't | ||
| jsgotangco | hmmm | 01:12 |
| === jsgotangco can only test for now and do AUC | ||
| hno73 | mhz: you know you want it :) | 01:13 |
| mhz | hehehehe | 01:13 |
| mhz | hno73: it's that in my ToDo list a Moin-a11y CSS had a priority | 01:14 |
| hno73 | mhz: we were also talking about possibly moving AUC to moin | 01:14 |
| mhz | and I guess I am already late for that :D | 01:14 |
| mhz | hno73: that I read, but artnay has good points | 01:14 |
| hno73 | mhz: I've been working on that too. we need to share notes :) | 01:14 |
| mhz | and I have not had the chance to show off some Moin "plugins" or "macros" for handling images | 01:15 |
| mhz | artnay: ping? | 01:15 |
| mhz | artnay_: ping | 01:16 |
| mhz | ooofff, guys... family duties calling again! | 01:16 |
| mhz | sorry I have to go | 01:16 |
| === mhz will read backlogs again!! | ||
| hno73 | OK, I think I should retire too | 01:17 |
| === mhz is tired of reading logs instead of participating | ||
| hno73 | Let's do another meeting again soon though | 01:17 |
| hno73 | perhaps with a few more team members :) | 01:17 |
| jsgotangco | good idea | 01:17 |
| jsgotangco | who will write a report? | 01:17 |
| mhz | yup | 01:18 |
| mhz | not lukacu :D | 01:18 |
| === jsgotangco work time already | ||
| hno73 | :D | 01:18 |
| === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] | ||
| jsgotangco | we'll need fridge love so a report would be good | 01:18 |
| jsgotangco | oh mhz left | 01:18 |
| jsgotangco | hno73, a minute? | 01:19 |
| hno73 | jsgotangco: yep | 01:19 |
| jsgotangco | orchard TODO and target dates? | 01:19 |
| hno73 | hm. You have a deadline soon right? | 01:20 |
| hno73 | btw, I just moved the site today: http://www.theopencd.org/ | 01:21 |
| hno73 | finally, the wiki and website in one | 01:21 |
| hno73 | a real moin-based CD is looking unrealistic for the next release though | 01:22 |
| jsgotangco | ive tried it doing it, its been trashing the cd hard | 01:22 |
| hno73 | how many new applications did you have in mind? | 01:22 |
| jsgotangco | well i was thinking of doing a spinoff for mac | 01:23 |
| hno73 | trying to write stuff to the CD? | 01:23 |
| hno73 | oh, right | 01:23 |
| jsgotangco | but are we still including livecd? | 01:24 |
| hno73 | no I plan to drop that now. | 01:25 |
| jsgotangco | ok i'll make up a list then | 01:25 |
| hno73 | people will distribute pure live CDs anyway | 01:25 |
| hno73 | and it makes derivatives difficult | 01:25 |
| hno73 | plus it sqeezes the space too much | 01:26 |
| hno73 | it was a good idea, but not that useful | 01:26 |
| jsgotangco | ok so i'll just go wild on the orchard wiki? | 01:26 |
| hno73 | Ubuntu is much bigger than theopencd so it doesn't really need the marketing help :) | 01:27 |
| hno73 | jsgotangco: yes, please do | 01:27 |
| jsgotangco | i'll consider pia's suggestions too | 01:27 |
| hno73 | the edu-cd? | 01:27 |
| jsgotangco | well not a separate cd | 01:27 |
| hno73 | but more educational stuff | 01:28 |
| jsgotangco | we have like 400MB+ now available :) | 01:28 |
| hno73 | there isn't really that much good stuff for win | 01:28 |
| hno73 | yep | 01:28 |
| jsgotangco | how about open content | 01:28 |
| hno73 | yes, the open clip art lib should go in now | 01:29 |
| hno73 | as can wallpapers and stuff | 01:29 |
| hno73 | Ubuntu art team wallpapers! | 01:29 |
| === hno73 hopes inkscape is stable enough on win32 to go in now | ||
| hno73 | it was pretty bad before | 01:30 |
| === lmanul [n=manu@dan75-4-82-239-58-38.fbx.proxad.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] | ||
| hno73 | we do need to be quite careful about quality | 01:30 |
| hno73 | ok, I should go now | 01:31 |
| jsgotangco | ok good night | 01:31 |
| hno73 | jsgotangco: just ping me tomorrow or whenever | 01:32 |
| jsgotangco | k | 01:32 |
| hno73 | good night all | 01:32 |
| === hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] | ||
| === vincent [n=vincent@85.69.101.91] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === vincent [n=vincent@85.69.101.91] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] | ||
| === licio [n=licio@c911ba47.bhz.virtua.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === uniq [n=frode@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jsglaptop [n=jsg@210.4.38.43] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === earobinson [n=earobins@HSE-Hamilton-ppp319685.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === frans-th [n=frans@202.73.108.136] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| frans-th | hi all | 05:09 |
| === dous [n=dous@efreet.edu.ms] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@c-69-143-75-17.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@c-69-143-75-17.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === klepas [n=klepas@203-213-31-142.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] | ||
| === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === FLeiXiuS [n=fleixius@c-69-143-75-17.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === manicka [n=manicka@203-158-43-234.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === ajmitch [i=ajmitch@port161-160.ubs.maxnet.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === phlaegel [n=phlaegel@atdot.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 3 Feb 21:00 UTC: Joint UDSF/Forums/DocTeam Meeting | 7 Feb 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 8 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 9 Feb 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 14 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | ||
| === irvin [n=irvin@203.213.195.224] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === fabbione [n=fabbione@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === dholbach [n=daniel@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mvo [n=egon@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === JaneW [n=JaneW@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === ogra_ibook [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === irvin [n=irvin@203.213.223.31] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === doko [n=doko@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === earobinson [n=earobins@HSE-Toronto-ppp304689.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === shirish [n=shirish@59.95.58.3] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === shirish [n=shirish@59.95.58.3] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] | ||
| === irvin [n=irvin@203.213.192.198] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === doko [n=doko@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === licio [n=licio@licio.estaminas.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === dholbach [n=daniel@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === manicka [n=manicka@203-158-43-234.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === lguerra [i=lguerra@200.21.93.195] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jmont [n=jmont@200.215.89.146] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] | ||
| === mruiz [n=mruiz@www.3ie.cl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jsgotangco [n=jsg@210.4.60.199] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === fabbione [n=fabbione@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === irvin [n=irvin@203.213.192.198] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === ealden [n=ealden@203.76.228.27] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| MarioMeyer | ealden, pong | 04:20 |
| jsgotangco | there's a meeting? | 04:21 |
| MarioMeyer | nope.. :) | 04:21 |
| MarioMeyer | he just pinged me | 04:21 |
| === irvin [n=irvin@203.213.192.198] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === irvin [n=irvin@ubuntu/member/irvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mvo [n=egon@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mruiz [n=mruiz@www.3ie.cl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mruiz [n=mruiz@www.3ie.cl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === lbm [n=lbm@x1-6-00-13-10-7a-d1-e4.k233.webspeed.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === hunger [n=tobias@p54A62D86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === ajmitch_ [n=ajmitch@port161-160.ubs.maxnet.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === lloyd [n=andreas@rosinante.egmont-kol.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === licio is now known as Spl4y | ||
| === ealden_ [n=ealden@ipdial-189-78.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === rob^^^ [n=rcaskey@cai17.music.uga.edu] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] | ||
| === bustacap [n=bustacap@203-206-46-153.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === Ampersand [n=richard@user-8124.lns2-c10.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mruiz [n=mruiz@www.3ie.cl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === Bonzodog [n=bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === Simira [n=simira@194.24.252.250] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| bustacap | hello all.. | 09:52 |
| mruiz | hello | 09:53 |
| Ampersand | hi | 09:53 |
| jdong | hi | 09:53 |
| Bonzodog | hi people | 09:53 |
| lloyd | hi | 09:53 |
| jdong | so like 5 more minutes | 09:54 |
| bustacap | yeah, I might give it 3 ;) | 09:55 |
| bustacap | Ok, let's start.. | 09:58 |
| === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| Bonzodog | grant | 09:58 |
| Bonzodog | you here? | 09:58 |
| bustacap | Who is in attendance from the Ubuntu Forums admin team? | 09:59 |
| jdong | I am | 09:59 |
| Bonzodog | me and manicka | 09:59 |
| Bonzodog | oh sorry | 09:59 |
| bustacap | ok, excellent | 09:59 |
| === michael_Steinber [n=michael@cpe-69-207-191-142.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| bustacap | Bonzodog, are you a UDSF admin? | 09:59 |
| Bonzodog | yes, as is manicka | 09:59 |
| bustacap | yeah.. | 09:59 |
| === mhz_meeting is Mauricio Hernandez, from Chile LoCo Team | ||
| bustacap | the first topic - howtos in the Wiki.. | 10:00 |
| === mruiz is Miguel Ruiz, from Chile LoCo Team | ||
| bustacap | I have proposed on the agenda page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF/MeetingAgenda - to bypass creating howtos in the forums and create them straight into the Wiki.. | 10:00 |
| mhz_meeting | bustacap: yes, that's the idea. | 10:01 |
| jdong | We understand that there are positives to doing so, but the forum team currently does not support doing so | 10:01 |
| bustacap | Ubuntu Forums team: are there any proposed ideas to changing the way the howtos are currently setup? | 10:01 |
| jdong | first off, unified logins and searches are a must | 10:02 |
| jdong | they need to seamlessly bridge together | 10:02 |
| bustacap | yes, that is a good idea.. | 10:02 |
| bustacap | I think there might be a big push to get everybody authenticating off the Launchpad system.. | 10:02 |
| mhz | currently, every person with LP account can login to wiki | 10:02 |
| jdong | secondly, all howto's should be accepted; not rejected due to "debian unholiness" | 10:02 |
| jdong | if we all LP, that'd be great | 10:02 |
| jdong | but that's not the primary concern | 10:03 |
| bustacap | what is "debian unholiness"? | 10:03 |
| jdong | not doing things the Debian way | 10:03 |
| bustacap | sure.. | 10:03 |
| jdong | such as installing stuff by hand or from source bypassing dpkg | 10:03 |
| mhz | jdong: the only issue I may see is that Forum users use nicks instead of NameLastname | 10:03 |
| bustacap | that's a downside of continuing the howtos in the forums.. | 10:03 |
| bustacap | mhz, that's off topic.. | 10:03 |
| bustacap | the howtos need to be scrutinised by the forums team | 10:04 |
| bustacap | sure there is a good qa side of that, however, the Wiki documents are scrutinised by the people that are using them.. | 10:04 |
| jdong | they are fairly scrutinized as far as not allowing anything that blatantly damages systems | 10:04 |
| bustacap | KingBahamut gave me the impression that he tested most of the docs that he was assigned.. | 10:05 |
| Bonzodog | also the how-to's being on the forums allows for live feedback...the how-to's don't always work exactly the same on everyones system | 10:05 |
| jdong | KB does indeed put a lot of effort into his project, and I'm not surprised if he personally tests everything | 10:05 |
| jdong | Bonzodog: good point; a Wiki->Forum link like what the Fridge has would be awesome | 10:05 |
| Bonzodog | we actually use the user feedback as a measure of how good a how-to is | 10:06 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, I have proposed to place a "Discuss this page on the Ubuntu Forums" link on major Wiki pages for starters | 10:06 |
| manicka | no one is assigned docs as such, they are scrutinized by the whole community | 10:06 |
| jdong | but bustacap, what is wrong with the doc team picking "good" howto's from our forums and putting them on the Wiki? | 10:06 |
| Bonzodog | if it has little feedback, or a lot of criticism, we may hold it from the udsf | 10:06 |
| mhz | bustacap: it is not 'offtopic' for wiki howtos because using a nick like 'ZeRo-Cow' would make wiki-linking a chaos (esp. when we talk about wiki admining) and also would make users have second thoughts on credibility | 10:06 |
| bustacap | manicka, isn't there an admin process involved before howtos are posted to the forums.. | 10:06 |
| bustacap | jdong, that is "double handling" | 10:07 |
| jdong | bustacap: a simple "is this a howto and not a question" check; that's all | 10:07 |
| jdong | bustacap: you can't call it that when you are going to reject a lot of the HOWTO's as "unsafe" | 10:07 |
| bustacap | the Wiki accepts all documents - good and bad - the public fixes them up | 10:07 |
| jdong | the last issue then is syntax | 10:08 |
| earobinson | hey | 10:08 |
| bustacap | sure, I understand there is a need to reject HowTos.. | 10:08 |
| bustacap | syntax with the Wiki? | 10:08 |
| earobinson | has the meeting started? | 10:08 |
| jdong | yeah, the differing syntaxes | 10:08 |
| jdong | i.e. users want to contribute but don't know the Wiki language | 10:09 |
| Bonzodog | earobinson, yes | 10:09 |
| bustacap | sure, there is a learning curve involved in the creation of Wikis | 10:09 |
| bustacap | but it is rather small.. | 10:09 |
| jdong | correct, and that learning curve is an initial barrier in making HOWTO's | 10:09 |
| bustacap | IMO | 10:09 |
| mhz | jdong: we can easily use the "tips" at bottom of every editing page | 10:09 |
| bustacap | jdong, to combat that, we need to make an even better Wiki syntax guide.. | 10:10 |
| mhz | jdong: or we can suggest users to visit wiki:SyntaxReference | 10:10 |
| === bustacap puts that on his list of things to bring up at the next docteam meeting.. | ||
| jdong | mhz, sure, but we've received complaints about the different syntax the last time we strongly encouraged Wiki howto's | 10:10 |
| Bonzodog | bustacap: I have had problems today with moinmoin tags.....mediawiki at least recognises html | 10:10 |
| bustacap | it is a matter of people getting comfortable with the syntax | 10:11 |
| bustacap | most howtos are just bullet points and a few headings.. | 10:11 |
| mhz | jdong: oh, yes, so far there are many diff among wikis. However, Moin 1.5 incorporates a WYSIWYG editor so we can all contribute happily | 10:11 |
| mhz | Bonzodog: yes, Moin only recognizes some html tags | 10:11 |
| Bonzodog | mhz: there are somethings that moin does not do though | 10:11 |
| Bonzodog | like I wanted strikeout today | 10:12 |
| jdong | mhz: a WYSIWYG editor would be great | 10:12 |
| bustacap | as long as the content gets posted on the Wiki, the creator just has to put in into CategoryCleanup and then the helpers come along to clean it up.. | 10:12 |
| mhz | yes, i know, and it doesn't do it because they released 1.5 which does it :D | 10:12 |
| jdong | I just have issues with how the doc team might disregard some forum howto/tips as frivolous | 10:12 |
| jdong | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=100167 | 10:12 |
| jdong | just an example | 10:12 |
| bustacap | ok, looking.. | 10:12 |
| jdong | these kinds of mini-snippet posts really don't need their own wiki page | 10:13 |
| jdong | more of an "oh cool, that's sweet" discussion than anything else | 10:13 |
| mhz | Bonzodog: oh, my last comment was for you, sorry | 10:13 |
| jdong | these seem better on the forum than on the Wiki | 10:13 |
| bustacap | jdong, frivolous howtos exist all over the Wiki as well, it takes a good Wiki Team to go through and integrate other people's work into the larger Wiki's | 10:13 |
| earobinson | but is there anything wrong if there is a wiki page? | 10:13 |
| bustacap | we can fix those with redirects when they have been integrated with other pages.. | 10:14 |
| mhz | bustacap: yes, actually, today there are over 4500 pages in the wiki | 10:14 |
| earobinson | just because we have extra content is not a bad thing, we just need to make sure the more important things are easy to find | 10:14 |
| jdong | earobinson: no, but there is also nothing wrong with redundancy | 10:14 |
| mhz | bustacap: and it is almost impossible to give pages lot of admin love | 10:14 |
| bustacap | jdong, that howto was great! | 10:14 |
| jdong | we have forums and mailing lists... that doesn't mean we have to get rid of one in favor for another | 10:14 |
| bustacap | we need howtos like that.. | 10:14 |
| Bonzodog | I have a better idea if I may? | 10:15 |
| jdong | I still think that the wiki and forums can coexist | 10:15 |
| earobinson | jdong isent that the point, having them on both the wiki and forums would be redundancy but there is nothing wrong with that | 10:15 |
| bustacap | no, forums and mailing lists have different roles to perform.. | 10:15 |
| jdong | explain | 10:15 |
| Bonzodog | can I have a moment to explain? | 10:15 |
| mhz | shoot | 10:15 |
| jdong | bustacap: the forums provide support, ubuntu-users provides support, #ubuntu provides support. Difference? | 10:15 |
| bustacap | mailing lists are for more technically inclined people and are also used to announce changes and for team collaboration | 10:15 |
| Bonzodog | right, we have to accept that the udsf is not going to go away | 10:16 |
| bustacap | the forums are the best 1st level support mechanism | 10:16 |
| Bonzodog | it will remain | 10:16 |
| bustacap | point-and-click help in a web browser.. | 10:16 |
| jdong | bustacap: so you are saying that the forum is for dumber people?? | 10:16 |
| bustacap | jdong, no, I am saying it is the easiest method of getting help | 10:16 |
| mdke | forums are easier to understand than mailing lists/irc | 10:17 |
| mdke | that's what he means | 10:17 |
| bustacap | not saying that technical subjects aren't discussed in the forums | 10:17 |
| earobinson | its just gives more choice to the user | 10:17 |
| jdong | well, in the same way posting a thread is the easiest way of letting someone know about something. | 10:17 |
| jdong | that just gives more choice to the user, as well | 10:17 |
| mdke | is this on the agenda? | 10:17 |
| === Bonzodog decides to post his point in a second.... | ||
| jdong | if the wiki folks want to make that a wiki page, cool -- go ahead. We'd gladly edit the original thread and link to the new wiki page | 10:17 |
| bustacap | jdong, I know about the ease, what I am saying is, with a little more effort, we can keep the docs manageable.. | 10:17 |
| earobinson | jdong yes and no, because there are so many posts on the forums if I make a post on mounting a hd it quickly gets hidden in a wiki it will always stay ontop | 10:18 |
| === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| mdke | it's pretty clear that the forums are not good for howtos jdong. it would be really nice if the forum and wiki could work together and provide a nice combined resource, each doing what it does well | 10:18 |
| mdke | ideally, it would work really well like that, IMO | 10:18 |
| earobinson | mdke +1 | 10:18 |
| jdong | earobinson: there are 514 forum HOWTO's. How do you keep all of them on top? | 10:18 |
| bustacap | creation of howtos directly into the Wiki would be the best solution.. | 10:18 |
| mhz | mdke: as usual +1 | 10:19 |
| earobinson | exactly in a forum you cant, but on a wiki you can have sections that keeps the info easy to browse | 10:19 |
| jdong | creation onto the wiki with discussion threads in the forum is a good idea | 10:19 |
| mdke | jdong, absolutely | 10:19 |
| bustacap | jdong +1 | 10:19 |
| jdong | I agree with that | 10:19 |
| Bonzodog | bustacap: as long as everytime one is created, there is a forum link already there | 10:19 |
| mdke | jdong, what is the status with LP authentication for the forum? | 10:19 |
| manicka | we already have a solution in place to better organise and archive forum data | 10:19 |
| mhz | jdong: we could have a CategoryForumHowto | 10:19 |
| jdong | mdke: ryan/ubuntugeek was on that; I don't know exactly | 10:19 |
| earobinson | mdke what is LP? | 10:20 |
| bustacap | jdong, if we can make some progress on this with the forum admins, we should keep in touch on this matter.. | 10:20 |
| mdke | earobinson, launchpad | 10:20 |
| bustacap | LaunchPad | 10:20 |
| earobinson | kk | 10:20 |
| bustacap | ok, Restructing the Wiki | 10:20 |
| Bonzodog | um...if I may | 10:20 |
| jdong | our main concern is that howto's placed on the wiki would be removed if they don't meet a certain "quality level" | 10:20 |
| bustacap | manicka, do you have any thoughts on restructing.. | 10:20 |
| Bonzodog | I have something I would like to add | 10:20 |
| bustacap | jdong, things don't get removed.. | 10:20 |
| jdong | as long as you can assure us that censorship won't take place, we're pretty happy | 10:20 |
| mdke | jdong, not removed | 10:20 |
| jdong | ok, /me happy now :) | 10:21 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF/MeetingAgenda - add a agenda item | 10:21 |
| mdke | what happens is people improve stuff if they think it's weak | 10:21 |
| manicka | restructuring what,, the wiki or the forum | 10:21 |
| bustacap | the Ubuntu Wiki | 10:21 |
| bustacap | do you have any thoughts on it.. | 10:21 |
| jdong | mdke: ok, good. Building on old work is great, I love it. | 10:21 |
| mdke | jdong, there will need to be quality control, but not by removing stuff, probably by categorising it | 10:21 |
| bustacap | classification and indexing.. | 10:21 |
| Bonzodog | this concerns all of this | 10:21 |
| mdke | jdong, that's not well evolved at the moment | 10:21 |
| jdong | let's let bonzodog speak | 10:21 |
| mdke | sure, go Bonzodog | 10:21 |
| manicka | I have lots of ideas, I've discussed a few on the doc-team mailing list, but they were dismissed | 10:21 |
| mdke | manicka, eh? which ideas were dismissed? | 10:21 |
| bustacap | well manicka bring it up here.. | 10:21 |
| Bonzodog | right - we have to accept that the udsf will not go away right? | 10:22 |
| manicka | it was some time ago | 10:22 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, can we put that on the end of the meeting agenda.. | 10:22 |
| mdke | Bonzodog, no, that depends on your point of view. | 10:22 |
| Bonzodog | we will contiinue to archive how-to's from thwe forums | 10:22 |
| Bonzodog | however I have an idea | 10:22 |
| bustacap | manicka, if you can recall what was rejected, please re-raise your ideas.. | 10:22 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, a little later in the meeting please.. | 10:23 |
| mdke | manicka, absolutely. If things were rejected for no good reason, tell me | 10:23 |
| mdke | we want ideas to improve the wiki | 10:23 |
| bustacap | I am after some input from the UDSF guys at the moment, and the Ubuntu Forums, for any ideas on how to improve the Wiki | 10:23 |
| === mdke nods at bustacap | ||
| jdong | hmm, one last thing, if a forum user really doesn't want to learn moinmoin, what should we do then? Post unformatted text and have others come along and fix it up? | 10:24 |
| Bonzodog | bustacap: the front end and editing of moinmoin was enough to put me off | 10:24 |
| Bonzodog | I really don't like moinmoin | 10:24 |
| bustacap | jdong, absolutely.. | 10:24 |
| jdong | for you and I, it may be easy enough to learn it, but there are some users that really don't like learning new stuff | 10:24 |
| Bonzodog | and I have tried | 10:24 |
| Bonzodog | omg I have tried to use it | 10:25 |
| mhz | bustacap: wiki needs love, lots of it, indeed, but it is kind of difficult to provide the "best" structure mainly due to its own nature | 10:25 |
| bustacap | jdong, that is quite alright for users to post unformatted and place it into CategoryCleanup | 10:25 |
| Bonzodog | but it's unusable | 10:25 |
| mdke | jdong, yes. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum | 10:25 |
| mhz | Bonzodog: but have you tried Moin 1.5? | 10:25 |
| mhz | (WYIWYG editor) | 10:25 |
| jdong | bustacap: but then the whole organization just goes downhill if everything goes into the cleanup category, right? | 10:25 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, adding an agenda item should be just a copy and paste from the other items.. | 10:25 |
| mdke | mhz, it doesn't matter if he has, we don't use it | 10:25 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, I will just put your agenda item at the end, I will bring it up then.. | 10:25 |
| mdke | jdong, yep, that's why the category system needs some rework | 10:26 |
| mhz | mdke: sure, but MAYBE, he can use desktopedition and copy paste | 10:26 |
| manicka | bustacap, we need to move away from this idea that the forums and udsf are separate entities | 10:26 |
| mhz | :D | 10:26 |
| bustacap | jdong, yes, we are looking at reworking the categories.. but it is still usable now.. | 10:26 |
| Bonzodog | can it please be accepted that I am an admin of the udsf? | 10:26 |
| jdong | just a heads-up, one of the other admins is not happy about the current decision | 10:26 |
| earobinson | manicka, they are separate entities, they work well as a team but at the end of the day they are 2 diffent projects | 10:26 |
| mdke | jdong, which decision? | 10:27 |
| bustacap | manicka, is this to do with the restructuring of the Wiki? | 10:27 |
| jdong | I am working to understand exactly what the disagreement is | 10:27 |
| jdong | mdke: all howtos are done on the wiki | 10:27 |
| mdke | jdong, oh, i think we're a long way from that decision | 10:27 |
| jdong | mdke: alright | 10:27 |
| jdong | so let's make clear the roadmap as far as howto's on the forums are concerned | 10:27 |
| bustacap | jdong, but as long as we can work towards greater creation of howtos in the Wiki, it's a step forward IMO | 10:27 |
| bustacap | sure jdong, shoot.. | 10:28 |
| mdke | jdong, even if everyone here is agreed, some social barriers need to be broken down before howtos are wiki-only | 10:28 |
| jdong | I support greater efforts to migrate current forum HOWTOS onto the wiki | 10:28 |
| mdke | plus, some wiki-forum technology will be required, I think | 10:28 |
| jdong | that makes all sense | 10:28 |
| jdong | but I don't want to deny users from posting howto's on the forum | 10:28 |
| manicka | agreed jdong | 10:29 |
| Bonzodog | users will always post on the forums | 10:29 |
| earobinson | jdong, +1 | 10:29 |
| jdong | we will do all that's possible to urge users to make new documents on the Wiki, but if a user so chooses, he still can put HOWTO's on the forum | 10:29 |
| bustacap | jdong, the interest isn't really in the existing - it is in the new HowTos.. | 10:29 |
| Bonzodog | even if we ask them not to | 10:29 |
| mdke | jdong, that's a shame, because it really isn't the best medium. and if the two resources were integrated properly, there should be no problem | 10:29 |
| mhz | jdong: are forums howtos html? If so, we can use Html2Moin.py | 10:30 |
| jdong | mhz: after rendered, they are html; internally they're vbulletin markup | 10:30 |
| bustacap | jdong, making the HowTo section read-only with a Quick Start guide on how to create a very basic page in the wiki is a possible solution.. | 10:30 |
| jdong | bustacap: then users will just start making howto articles in other parts of the forum | 10:30 |
| jdong | that's inevitable | 10:30 |
| Bonzodog | mhz: is the wiki set for u[pgrade in the near future? | 10:30 |
| bustacap | jdong, I know that you can't make users do anything.. | 10:30 |
| Bonzodog | to 1.5 | 10:30 |
| mhz | Bonzodog: dont know yet. | 10:30 |
| Bonzodog | ? | 10:30 |
| mdke | jdong, that depends on the level of integration | 10:30 |
| mdke | if there is a howto section, which is the wiki, that won't happen | 10:31 |
| jdong | bustacap: currently, isolating howto's to the HOWTO area is as good as we can do as forum staff, IMO | 10:31 |
| bustacap | but if there is a statement and a firm guide to tell people to create in the wiki, that is the best that can be done.. | 10:31 |
| === tseng [n=tseng@unaffiliated/tseng] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] | ||
| mhz | Bonzodog: but I can happily help you use MoinDesktop edition 1.5 and show you copy/paste into current wiki | 10:31 |
| jdong | bustacap: users will start replying to questions with mini HOWTO's, and then you'll just get repetitive clutter | 10:31 |
| jdong | that's why the HOWTO area started in the first place | 10:31 |
| bustacap | jdong, I just wish people could make more of an effort to create good doco.. | 10:31 |
| mhz | Bonzodog: desktop edition takes 1 minute to work in your /home | 10:31 |
| jdong | bustacap: agreed; but we can't force people to comply with our wishes ;) | 10:32 |
| bustacap | well perhaps a limit on the size of the HowTos in the howto section.. | 10:32 |
| Bonzodog | mhz: I will look, but I also deal with mediawiki | 10:32 |
| Bonzodog | and I am a mediawiki fanboy | 10:32 |
| mhz | Bonzodog: I used to be a mediawiki fan too | 10:32 |
| bustacap | any over 4 lines will need to be created in the Wiki (something like that - needs more thought) | 10:32 |
| jdong | a size limit will just force people to cram more information vaguely | 10:32 |
| mdke | jdong, I'll say it again: that depends on the level of integration | 10:32 |
| earobinson | also the forums let people talk about the how to the wiki will not allow that | 10:32 |
| jdong | mdke: how far are we planning ahead here? | 10:33 |
| mdke | earobinson, we can use the forums to discuss wiki howtos | 10:33 |
| mdke | jdong, it would take some planning yeah | 10:33 |
| bustacap | jdong, we could have more meetings ;) | 10:33 |
| jdong | as far as soon after this meeting, I can peacefully instate what I've agreed to now :) | 10:33 |
| earobinson | maybe we could convert the how to section on the forums to be, a link to you wiki how to section | 10:33 |
| earobinson | mdke, I was getting at that | 10:33 |
| bustacap | sounds great jdong.. | 10:33 |
| jdong | but as far as big moves, such as no HOWTO's on forums, that's not something we can do suddenly | 10:33 |
| mdke | of course not | 10:33 |
| bustacap | no, that's right jdong.. | 10:33 |
| jdong | there needs to be a smooth transition and evaluation/meetings along the way | 10:33 |
| mdke | it will take lots of planning, and talking | 10:34 |
| bustacap | it's shift in the "culture" as well.. | 10:34 |
| bustacap | a shift in habit | 10:34 |
| bustacap | that takes time.. | 10:34 |
| earobinson | I think linking is the best of both worlds | 10:34 |
| Bonzodog | I have a much better solution | 10:34 |
| Bonzodog | use interwiki | 10:34 |
| mdke | Bonzodog, interwiki between a wiki and a forum? | 10:34 |
| earobinson | interwiki? | 10:35 |
| Bonzodog | to link from the main wiki to the udsf | 10:35 |
| bustacap | jdong, moving back to suggestions for the Wiki - I think the wiki.ubuntu.com/Forums solution isn't working and needs to rethought | 10:35 |
| mdke | we're not talking about the udsf Bonzodog | 10:35 |
| Bonzodog | that way we can carry on archiving howto's | 10:35 |
| Bonzodog | from the forums | 10:35 |
| bustacap | howtos are archived by being created in the Wiki | 10:35 |
| Bonzodog | and the wiki then provides all the vaild links | 10:35 |
| mdke | Bonzodog, if you do that, the howto has to be written once, and ported once, rather than just written once. You see the difference? | 10:36 |
| bustacap | double handling.. | 10:36 |
| jdong | bustacap, along the lines of that, we can say that the Forum-Wiki delta is an effort to put the forum HOWTO's into the Wiki, correct? | 10:36 |
| mdke | yep | 10:36 |
| mdke | ideas for improving that are welcome | 10:36 |
| jdong | I think we can safely say that having an intermediate wiki in a different format is truly double-handling, right? | 10:36 |
| bustacap | yes it is, I would propose the scrapping of the current system in favour of better help guides for Forum users in the howto section | 10:36 |
| mhz | mdke: and you think interwiki feature may work sanely ? | 10:37 |
| manicka | by the delta, you mean the pastebin that was set up | 10:37 |
| mdke | jdong, you may think that, but that is what the UDSF is, and it is pretty fiercely defended by the people involved | 10:37 |
| bustacap | jdong, instead of users posting under the forums section, they should just create their own pages in the main - I don't think we need to "sandbox" forum users' pages.. | 10:37 |
| bustacap | manicka, I think the "pastebin" solution isn't viable.. | 10:38 |
| mdke | bustacap, the idea is to have an area where markup is not a problem, and people who want to clean things up can find it easily | 10:38 |
| manicka | no, I agree | 10:38 |
| bustacap | users can just create their docs inthe main - and place the doc into CategoryCleanup | 10:38 |
| jdong | bustacap: there's just simply a culture/awareness gap here; not all of us are educated in how the doc team organizes the wiki. that's why we've been trying to just migrate articles to the wiki and have you guys organize them | 10:38 |
| manicka | at least not the version that is currently on the wiki | 10:38 |
| bustacap | jdong, there isn't much organisation at the moment.. | 10:38 |
| bustacap | just a main index | 10:38 |
| bustacap | I am working on changing that in a big way | 10:38 |
| earobinson | jdong we could sticky a link to a wiki how to on making wikis | 10:39 |
| bustacap | the WikiTeam needs a Cleanup subteam along with Wiki Love Days | 10:39 |
| mhz | .oO(we can also include a little trick so users see this box: "Create a page here _________" | 10:39 |
| jdong | Some sort of documentation of how to work on the Ubuntu wiki would be great | 10:39 |
| mdke | earobinson, there is one already | 10:39 |
| earobinson | my bad | 10:39 |
| jdong | and I don't mean just syntax; organization, layout, and everything | 10:39 |
| bustacap | hehe @ mhz, that is sneaky and underhand, it's good.. | 10:39 |
| mdke | jdong, there is a sticky on the howto section. That references the relevant documentation | 10:39 |
| bustacap | I think mhz does have a really good suggestion.. | 10:40 |
| jdong | mdke: that actually illustrates the wiki barrier pretty well: There's 10+ pages of reading material for contributing content to the wikis! | 10:41 |
| mhz | bustacap: i'll provide a url for you to see | 10:41 |
| === bobblehead [n=bobblehe@64.141.138.3] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| bustacap | In the howto section, you can have a very simple form that asks for the title of the HowTo, the user places the name in there, it then redirects the user to edit mode of their title - eg. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewHowToTitle?action=edit :) | 10:41 |
| mdke | jdong, erm, one post on the forum, and one page on the wiki should do it | 10:41 |
| mdke | jdong, but yeah, we can always work on breaking down the barrier | 10:41 |
| jdong | mdke: right, but the 10 pages of reading you say was "VITAL" to do? | 10:41 |
| jdong | that's a part of the barrier | 10:41 |
| mdke | jdong, perhaps I should revisit my howto | 10:41 |
| mdke | s/howto/post | 10:41 |
| mdke | the WikiGuide page is comprehensive enough now | 10:42 |
| mhz | bustacap: http://www.druidwiki.org/ See at the bottom of the page | 10:42 |
| bustacap | jdong, there is a bit of a "you must do it this way" feel about the wiki help docs which I will work on removing | 10:42 |
| mdke | it wasn't at the time | 10:42 |
| jdong | bustacap: +1 | 10:42 |
| bustacap | jdong, that is part of making the Wiki more friendly | 10:42 |
| mhz | bustacap: that page uses lots of moin nice tricks | 10:42 |
| mdke | you can't remove all of that I'm afraid | 10:42 |
| mdke | because it's like saying "don't worry about making good documentation" | 10:42 |
| earobinson | but there is a huge advantage to haveing all the wikis in the same style bustacap | 10:42 |
| bustacap | mdke, sure, but we can encourage good documentation.. | 10:43 |
| bustacap | not enforce it as a hard and fast rule | 10:43 |
| jdong | mdke: that's one of the attitudes of the forum howto section. It's very loose and relaxed | 10:43 |
| bustacap | perhaps just "softer" language in the instructions.. | 10:43 |
| mdke | jdong, "don't worry about making good documentation"??? | 10:43 |
| mdke | surely not | 10:43 |
| jdong | mdke: in a way, yes | 10:43 |
| mdke | hmm | 10:44 |
| jdong | we don't have a 10 page guide on writing a 5 line howto | 10:44 |
| mdke | are there rubbish howtos there? | 10:44 |
| bustacap | mdke, it's not a case of - "stuff it - let somebody else fix it up" - it's more that if you want to create good doco, here's how.. | 10:44 |
| earobinson | bustacap, but even then when a user makes a how to and links it on the forums and it gets edited that could cause problems no? | 10:44 |
| jdong | mdke: at times, yes | 10:44 |
| mdke | jdong, ah. That wastes the user's time | 10:44 |
| jdong | mdke: there are howto's on all levels of complexity and quality | 10:44 |
| mdke | he then has to look for another one | 10:44 |
| bustacap | earobinson, heaven forbid a Wiki getting edited by others.. :) | 10:44 |
| jdong | mdke: no it doesn't. | 10:44 |
| mdke | i think so | 10:44 |
| earobinson | im saying it can be a good thing, but if a user makes one and then the style gets changed thats where problems could start bustacap | 10:45 |
| bustacap | ok, jdong & mdke hear me on this.. | 10:45 |
| bustacap | mdke, we can agree that there is a need for good doco | 10:45 |
| jdong | All I can say is that we've not once got a rant about users not being able to find howto's, but several users who have tried to create docs on the wiki come back confused | 10:45 |
| bustacap | jdong, we can agree that shouldn't be the barrage of restrictions and rules for users.. | 10:45 |
| jdong | correct | 10:45 |
| bustacap | we need to simplify the "guidelines" for creating new Wiki docs.. | 10:46 |
| mdke | jdong, finding and creating are two different problems. I won't tell you that the wiki is easy to create documentation on. Although it's not as hard as people think, and we can work on it | 10:46 |
| === dsas [n=dean@host86-128-53-52.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| bustacap | sort of like how Malone is a simplified Bugzilla.. | 10:46 |
| jdong | mdke: correct, but how would you like forum users to act diferently than now; that's currently my #1 concern as representative of the forums | 10:46 |
| manicka | mdke, for ordinary users, the wiki is overwhelming | 10:47 |
| bustacap | basically, search for an existing topic, if it doesn't exist - create a new one and follow some simple formatting guidelines.. | 10:47 |
| jdong | currently, I see more of a doc team side effort than a forums issue | 10:47 |
| bustacap | manicka, I would agree with that for some ordinary users, we need to simplify the Wiki help & guidelines.. | 10:47 |
| jdong | we'd be glad to lend a hand, but more important I'd first like to know for the average forum user making a HOWTO thread, how this is going to change after this meeting | 10:47 |
| bustacap | I will be scouring the logs for this meeting and bringing up a lot of these subjects at the next meeting - this has been very productive so far.. | 10:48 |
| bustacap | doc team meeting that is.. | 10:48 |
| bustacap | jdong, we need to make the Wiki help simpler and friendlier.. | 10:48 |
| jdong | yeah, we all need to stay in close contact and understand each other better | 10:48 |
| bustacap | more meetings like this ;) | 10:49 |
| jdong | ugh, pretty much :) | 10:49 |
| earobinson | :) | 10:49 |
| bustacap | so manicka, Bonzodog, jdong - any thoughts on any structuring within the Wiki | 10:49 |
| Bonzodog | yeah...simplification is needed BADLY | 10:49 |
| Bonzodog | also, my login to the wiki keeps on going awry | 10:50 |
| mdke | Bonzodog, what sort of simplification? | 10:50 |
| bustacap | I am of the opinion that the UserDocumentation page needs further indexing at levels below it.. | 10:50 |
| manicka | well, the obvious one is the layout of the userdocs page | 10:50 |
| mdke | Bonzodog, login is cookie based. if you delete your cookies, it goes away | 10:50 |
| Bonzodog | no, I have an 'invalid password' | 10:50 |
| manicka | you need some subsections created with how-tos linked together, like the recent wifi page | 10:50 |
| Bonzodog | as i am using my LP login | 10:50 |
| mdke | bustacap, that will happen when the wiki is moved, and searching works properly | 10:51 |
| mdke | manicka, ^^ | 10:51 |
| bustacap | sure, I am working on the UserDocumentation page manicka - I will make the changes publicly known once I have a solid plan.. | 10:51 |
| Bonzodog | so I cannot change skin | 10:51 |
| bustacap | mdke, I thought the searching works pretty good at the moment.. | 10:51 |
| mdke | bustacap, search for "bluetooth" | 10:51 |
| mdke | you'll get like 4 pages which aren't documentation | 10:51 |
| bustacap | mdke, you'll get worse results on Google :D | 10:51 |
| bustacap | searching is searching.. | 10:52 |
| manicka | and some way of establishing if a howto is for a specific version of ubuntu or a generic howto | 10:52 |
| mdke | manicka, yes that is true. There's a thread on the ML right now about that | 10:52 |
| manicka | the last time I looked there were some redundent pages there | 10:52 |
| jdong | ok, http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=100, on that page, we have a read-before-you-post message encouraging users to go on the Wiki | 10:53 |
| bustacap | manicka, could I invite you along to the next docteam meeting with your thoughts on the wiki, because these are the exact topics that I am bringing up at the moment.. | 10:53 |
| jdong | is there anything you guys would like to see changed about that? | 10:53 |
| bobblehead | bobble.. | 10:53 |
| mdke | nope, I am happy with it | 10:53 |
| bustacap | jdong, I think I will talk about a restructuring of the whole Forums->Wiki issue with mdke and we'll get back to you.. | 10:53 |
| bustacap | the page is good though.. | 10:53 |
| manicka | bustacap, I'm usually there anyway | 10:53 |
| jdong | bustacap: then we'll follow-up through e-mail? | 10:53 |
| bustacap | sure on the Forums->Wiki issue, yeah | 10:54 |
| mdke | jdong, have you got a minute for a couple of things | 10:54 |
| mdke | not related | 10:54 |
| bustacap | jdong, and maybe another meeting as well.. | 10:54 |
| jdong | mdke: yeah, like 15 minutes or so, shoot :) | 10:54 |
| bustacap | ok, onto UDSF related topics.. | 10:54 |
| dsas | would it be a good idea for the udsf guys subscribed to the doc ml if they wished? fresh input and their experiences would be helpful on things | 10:54 |
| earobinson | why not also post it to the forums let the users know whats going on | 10:54 |
| jdong | bustacap: alright | 10:54 |
| jdong | this has been a good discussion so far, thanks everyone :) | 10:54 |
| mdke | jdong, one is enough :) http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91 if I add a post about the wiki documentation and official help docs, will you sticky it there? | 10:55 |
| mdke | dsas, yes, very good | 10:55 |
| bustacap | yes thanks for your attendance jdong.. | 10:55 |
| manicka | dsas, I've been on the doc ml for some time | 10:55 |
| earobinson | because that way as things do change they will know why and have a chance to come to a meeting and make there voice heard | 10:55 |
| jdong | mdke: sure; I will | 10:55 |
| jdong | bustacap: no problem; glad I could be of assistance | 10:55 |
| mdke | jdong, ok I'll PM you or something, if that's ok | 10:55 |
| manicka | as is kb and others | 10:55 |
| === bobblehead is now known as ubuntugeek | ||
| jdong | mdke: pm, e-mail, all fine | 10:55 |
| mdke | thanks all | 10:55 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, you wanted raise the topic of the UDSF | 10:55 |
| ubuntugeek | good meeting.. thanks jdong.. | 10:56 |
| Bonzodog | I wanted to propose the idea of creating a link between the udsf and the wiki | 10:56 |
| bustacap | hello ubuntugeek | 10:56 |
| ubuntugeek | hello | 10:56 |
| Bonzodog | along the lines of using the interwiki | 10:56 |
| earobinson | lol ubuntugeek lurking in the shadows eh | 10:56 |
| jdong | lol, I was just commenting on that, earobinson ;) | 10:56 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, one exists - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF | 10:56 |
| Bonzodog | yeah, I created that | 10:57 |
| ubuntugeek | had a second to drop in.. but jdong is doing a fine job and i'll just watch.. | 10:57 |
| bustacap | well, if nobody has anything extra to add.. | 10:58 |
| Bonzodog | what i was saying is that how-to's could remain on the udsf | 10:58 |
| Bonzodog | archived by us | 10:58 |
| bustacap | they can Bonzodog.. | 10:58 |
| dsas | manicka, ok, I wasn't aware of that. | 10:58 |
| Bonzodog | there could be hard lionks put into the main wiki | 10:58 |
| Bonzodog | *links | 10:58 |
| bustacap | we have no input into what gets copied and pasted around the Internet.. | 10:58 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, that is defeating the purpose of the wiki | 10:59 |
| bustacap | a wiki that links to another wiki?? | 10:59 |
| Bonzodog | so we become the how-to section of the wiki effectively | 10:59 |
| bustacap | the wiki is the how-to section.. | 10:59 |
| Bonzodog | thats what interwiki is all about# | 10:59 |
| Bonzodog | the wiki contains alot more than howtos's | 10:59 |
| bustacap | I don't think this is the intention of the UDSF team? to link off the Ubuntu Wiki? | 11:00 |
| Bonzodog | we are the forum howto's archive | 11:00 |
| Bonzodog | nothing more | 11:00 |
| Bonzodog | we actually have linked across to the wiki | 11:00 |
| Bonzodog | on occasion | 11:00 |
| bustacap | ok.. | 11:01 |
| Bonzodog | so we archive the forums how-to's | 11:01 |
| === mhz has to leave | ||
| Bonzodog | then we place a link using interwiki in the main wiki | 11:01 |
| mhz | bye guys and thx for such interesting discussions | 11:01 |
| bustacap | thanks mhz | 11:01 |
| === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] | ||
| Bonzodog | that way users can still create their how-to's in the forums | 11:02 |
| === mruiz [n=mruiz@www.3ie.cl] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Bytes!"] | ||
| Bonzodog | we take charge of archiving forum related info | 11:02 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, a solution for the how-tos have been discussed using the official resources of the Ubuntu community | 11:02 |
| === KingBahamut [n=bahamut@c-24-98-229-28.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| bustacap | official Ubuntu Forums -> official Ubuntu Wiki | 11:02 |
| manicka | that's a very long term project bustacap | 11:02 |
| KingBahamut | I aggree manicka | 11:03 |
| bustacap | yes it is.. | 11:03 |
| Bonzodog | my solution works | 11:03 |
| Bonzodog | I've seen it | 11:03 |
| Bonzodog | i've tried it :) | 11:03 |
| KingBahamut | sorry for my lateness ladies and gents | 11:03 |
| bustacap | sorry KingBahamut, the meeting is coming to a close.. | 11:03 |
| Bonzodog | manicka: we need to bring KB upto date | 11:03 |
| KingBahamut | figures my dumb luck would elude | 11:03 |
| KingBahamut | ce la vie | 11:03 |
| mdke | there is a log, no problem | 11:04 |
| bustacap | yeah, catch the discussion in the log.. | 11:04 |
| Bonzodog | but that is my idea | 11:04 |
| earobinson | + follow up emails and meetings | 11:04 |
| bustacap | I think I will close off the meeting here.. | 11:04 |
| earobinson | and I assume any info will be posted on the forums | 11:04 |
| bustacap | yeah + earobinson | 11:04 |
| bustacap | sure there is a post - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=686596 | 11:04 |
| Bonzodog | bbustacap: I thought the udsf was to be a major part of this? | 11:04 |
| Bonzodog | I would hope that we could work together | 11:05 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, the main topic on the agenda was the duplication of the howtos on the UDSF | 11:05 |
| Bonzodog | and is that not what i have been trying to discuss | 11:05 |
| bustacap | and a proposal on a joint effort to identify and correct the duplication within the two Wikis.. | 11:05 |
| Bonzodog | a solution | 11:05 |
| bustacap | do you see there being a duplication problem between the two wikis? | 11:06 |
| Bonzodog | yes | 11:06 |
| Bonzodog | but we are already ahead on that | 11:07 |
| earobinson | why is it a problem Bonzodog? | 11:07 |
| Bonzodog | so why don't you let us continue what we are doing | 11:07 |
| Bonzodog | and we will then create interwiki links to the main wiki | 11:07 |
| === lfittl [n=lfittl@83-65-244-232.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| bustacap | well I will raise the issue at the next docteam meeting on proposing to identifing duplicates.. | 11:08 |
| Bonzodog | that ways the forums stuff remains as is | 11:08 |
| bustacap | sure, you guys just archive.. I am not trying to stop the activities of the UDSF Bonzodog.. | 11:08 |
| bustacap | I am after a better documentation solution, that's my angle.. | 11:08 |
| Bonzodog | isn't it better though to continue with the how-to's going to the udsf from the forums? | 11:09 |
| Bonzodog | thus we stop duplication onto the main wiki | 11:09 |
| mdke | night all, gtg | 11:10 |
| === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] | ||
| earobinson | I still dont understand what is so bad wit a bit of duplication | 11:10 |
| jdong | alright, yeah, I've gotta be heading off too... | 11:10 |
| jdong | I think the rest of the discussion for now will be non-forum related | 11:10 |
| earobinson | later jdong mdke | 11:10 |
| Bonzodog | i say let the users continue posting how-to's to the forums, we will transfer them to the udsf, then create a hardlinked page in the main wiki to the udsf | 11:11 |
| bustacap | Bonzodog, this is causing some many extra unnecessary steps.. - this has been discussed above.. | 11:12 |
| Bonzodog | it will basically echo the index setup of the udsf | 11:12 |
| earobinson | bustacap, +1 | 11:12 |
| bustacap | bustacap, +1 as well | 11:13 |
| earobinson | 1 step that makes the info available to all 3 is better than 3 steps | 11:13 |
| Bonzodog | but you are proposing cutting the supply route by not letting users post how-to's on the forums? | 11:13 |
| Bonzodog | thus we suddenly have no info to archive | 11:14 |
| bustacap | I have to get going now.. Thanks for everybody turning up and having a great discussion - progress has been made - keep in touch.. | 11:14 |
| earobinson | not stop it just make it more easy to post in other locations and then link from the forums | 11:14 |
| KingBahamut | Bonzo, that just means our doc writers go outside the forums | 11:14 |
| KingBahamut | and it becomes a non issue | 11:14 |
| earobinson | exactly | 11:14 |
| === bustacap [n=bustacap@203-206-46-153.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] | ||
| === Bonzodog [n=bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] | ||
| earobinson | meeting over??? | 11:17 |
| dsas | i'd say so, it seems most everyone has gone. | 11:18 |
| dsas | just waiting for the irc logs to refresh so I can catch up :) | 11:19 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!