[09:04] <Tm_T> artnay: FINALLY! (yeah, code might be ugly but it works here!) http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-basic-03.svg
[09:07] <klepas> Tm_T: looks clean and sharp (the image, heven't peaked at the xml) :)
[09:13] <Tm_T> so it works, good
[09:14] <Tm_T> earlier I had problem with xml
[09:14] <Tm_T> now save as plain svg, read, modify, save as plain svg, read, modify back fixed the problem :p
[09:16] <klepas> cool
[02:35] <artnay> hey guys
[02:35] <artnay> damn, I missed the meeting :(
[02:36] <artnay> I've had some serious problems with all my computers (like not getting further from BIOS) 
[02:36] <artnay> one lost VGA signal etc.
[02:36] <klepas> hey artnay !
[02:36] <artnay> and they are all broken at the moment
[02:36] <artnay> hey klepas
[02:36] <artnay> how was the meeting?
[02:36] <klepas> hey man, been a while now
[02:36] <klepas> i didn't know about it
[02:36] <klepas> just sort of was on at the right time
[02:37] <artnay> so did you have it?
[02:37] <klepas> not much happened
[02:37] <klepas> yea
[02:37] <artnay> great
[02:37] <artnay> well that doesn't surprise me
[02:37] <artnay> at least henrik was present, that's good. I've wanted to chat with him for a while now
[02:38] <artnay> I really need to get some new HW so that all computers would be functional
[02:39] <artnay> klepas: so school started, eh?
[02:39] <artnay> how was LCA?
[02:39] <klepas> no
[02:39] <klepas> that is monday
[02:39] <klepas> artnay: LCA was the most fun i've had for a very, very long time
[02:39] <klepas> check my blog man :)
[02:39] <artnay> what about andy's icon set?
[02:40] <artnay> do we something to play with?
[02:41] <artnay> *insert have*
[02:42] <klepas> andy is working on something as a sort of shot-off of tango
[02:42] <klepas> canonical will hire more graphic artists
[02:42] <klepas> especially one to do a set
[02:42] <klepas> and our influence on what goes into mainstream won't change
[02:43] <klepas> that doesn't mean some of our wallpapers or splashes might not make it into dapper or future releases
[02:43] <klepas> they just need to be very good
[02:44] <klepas> as for artwork in general we are encouraged to make and maintain art packages
[02:44] <klepas> if they are good and popular enough entire packages might be included in mainstream
[02:44] <klepas> that's the jist of it pretty much
[02:44] <artnay> oh, really? I was told that there was plans to hire experts but nothing happened with it
[02:45] <artnay> so dapper+1 then
[02:45] <artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Evaluation/MetacityTheme
[02:46] <artnay> what's the main difference between cl2 and unity-no-red? if I recall correctly, unity does not waste that much space
[02:46] <artnay> but then, that goes against "the bigger the better when it comes to important functions" principle
[02:47] <artnay> at least I think that the current metacity theme has too big buttons
[02:47] <artnay> ...if you take account that X will not get configured correctly, you end up with terrible large metacity theme and low resolution :o
[02:50] <klepas> i'm personally fond of a brown version of tango metacity
[02:50] <klepas> :)
[02:53] <artnay> the edge is terribly large by default
[02:53] <klepas> yea, true
[02:53] <klepas> but it could be fixed :)
[02:53] <klepas> btw, using gnome now
[02:53] <klepas> on ubuntu
[02:53] <artnay> sorry guys, I'm using vista at the moment (friend's computer) and its windeco (aero black) is pretty damn decent
[02:54] <artnay> much better than xp's luna
[02:54] <klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/files/mydesktop_06-02-03.jpg
[02:55] <artnay> I find this better than OS X's traffic lights. maybe because this one reflects much better when cursor goes over buttons
[02:55] <artnay> what, klepas using G? :P
[02:56] <klepas> artnay: read my blog... :P
[02:56] <klepas> reasons are covered there
[02:57] <artnay> ok
[02:57] <artnay> so how was the change?
[02:58] <klepas> i'm still somewhat going through it
[02:58] <klepas> lots of things in gnome that really shitting me
[02:58] <klepas> and kubuntu annoyed me even more
[02:59] <klepas> gnome it is for a while
[02:59] <artnay> so was there any word of schedule for andrew's icon set?
[03:00] <artnay> hmm
[03:00] <artnay> hopefully kubuntu will get more (financial and dev) focus after dapper
[03:02] <klepas> i probably ought to properly explain what andy wants to do
[03:02] <klepas> basically rather than make so many icon sets, each with a different colouration and such
[03:02] <klepas> because it really is a lot of work
[03:02] <klepas> he wants to make a sort of generic set
[03:02] <artnay> I know, he explained it to me some time ago
[03:02] <klepas> which can be altered really quickly
[03:02] <klepas> ah, good
[03:03] <artnay> sounds reasonable
[03:03] <klepas> he wants to integrate it into tango
[03:03] <klepas> yea
[03:03] <artnay> that way just adapt ubuntu's palette to it and voila
[03:03] <klepas> he didn't inform me of any timeframe
[03:03] <klepas> andy is a great guy btw
[03:03] <artnay> so let's assume that is not for dapper
[03:03] <klepas> no
[03:03] <klepas> definitely not
[03:03] <artnay> damn, I'm missing words every once in a while
[03:03] <klepas> canonical is hiring a graphic artists from scandinavia to do it
[03:04] <artnay> why scandinavia?
[03:04] <klepas> for dapper
[03:04] <klepas> no idea
[03:04] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:04] <klepas> i guess the guy just lives there that they had in mind
[03:04] <artnay> umh, they will have some really busy time
[03:04] <klepas> mark didn't hint on his name
[03:04] <jsgotangco> we can still make a difference with AUC
[03:04] <artnay> jsgotangco: we actually should make
[03:04] <klepas> well i don't really care if they want the art team to not really have any major influence on mainstream art
[03:04] <artnay> that's a necessity if you ask me :o
[03:05] <klepas> more work for them
[03:05] <klepas> and if they or their artists bugger up not my problem
[03:05] <artnay> me neither, I'd just like to see some proper plans
[03:05] <klepas> yea
[03:05] <klepas> i'm going to ask Jeff to re-inforce the fact that we really don't get to decide what goes into mainstream
[03:06] <artnay> hmm, damn NAT. it's giving me a headache with this ssh connection
[03:07] <jsgotangco> :/
[03:07] <artnay> hmm, I was told something really different by two canonical devs
[03:08] <artnay> so, yes, announce the facts and there will be misunderstandings
[03:08] <jsgotangco> 2 different things?
[03:08] <artnay> *NO*
[03:08] <artnay> as I said, I'm missing words here :)
[03:08] <klepas> jsgotangco: you're using gnome?
[03:08] <artnay> 2 different things, yeah. you could sum that up to one thing, there really are no proper plans to be announced :(
[03:09] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:09] <jsgotangco> (i can switch to kde if you need something)
[03:09] <klepas> ah, goodie
[03:09] <klepas> nah, i've just moved to gnome
[03:09] <jsgotangco> what's up?
[03:09] <klepas> i'm after a good gtk rss feed aggregator
[03:09] <klepas> wondering whether you could recommend some good ones :)
[03:09] <artnay> liferea is my bet
[03:10] <artnay> or thunderbird
[03:10] <jsgotangco> im using liferea
[03:10] <klepas> i dislike thunderbird
[03:10] <artnay> haven't really used GTK apps for some time
[03:10] <jsgotangco> i used to have blam but since since i found lifrea, i've stuck to it
[03:13] <klepas> alrighty, i'll give it a go
[03:14] <klepas> hey you two
[03:14] <klepas> my personal suggestion is we just let canonical do their stuff
[03:14] <klepas> and we'll fix this wiki so others who join the team aren't under the notion that they can directly get their work into mainstream
[03:15] <klepas> and they we can produce and manage some universe art packages
[03:15] <klepas> and do some work aside from that which might go into mainstream
[03:16] <jsgotangco> well yes i was thinking more of cultivating community so that they'll see what we can actually do
[03:17] <jsgotangco> packaging them won't be a problem
[03:20] <klepas> jsgotangco: i just cba fighting what canonical, mark and others think in regards to this
[03:20] <klepas> because it will mean distraction from what i want to work on
[03:20] <klepas> and senseless frustration
[03:22] <jsgotangco> too bad i didnt get the chance to discuss that much art stuff with mark when i had lunch with him last thursday :/
[03:23] <jsgotangco> we discussed more about docs
[03:23] <artnay> hmm
[03:24] <jsgotangco> i dont think art has its own repository even
[03:24] <jsgotangco> but that's only secondary
[03:24] <artnay> I agree that wiki should be fixed
[03:24] <artnay> but how? henrik made some big changes but I don't follow them
[03:25] <artnay> there was this wiki page for wiki structure proposal (thanks to mhz for that)
[03:26] <artnay> for example /Artwork should be renewed (there are dupe links) but now I have no idea how to set it up
[03:27] <klepas> yea
[03:27] <klepas> and it should be /ArtWork
[03:27] <klepas> for CamelCase purposes
[03:28] <artnay> no offense but I think that the renewal of /Artwork missed the point
[03:28] <artnay> I think news section is essential
[03:28] <klepas> yep
[03:28] <artnay> on the main page...
[03:28] <klepas> i won't have time to have a look at it
[03:28] <klepas> damn college begins monday
[03:29] <klepas> and i've got to get this damn system working how i like it before then
[03:29] <jsgotangco> what do you suggest on the wiki page i can help out with markup
[03:29] <Tm_T> artnay: moin
[03:31] <klepas> btw jsgotangco, liferea is really nice. cheers :)
[03:31] <artnay> well my suggestion was what I set up last time
[03:33] <jsgotangco> oh goodie
[03:33] <artnay> I see no point in official wiki page. that one should be combined with marketing team's web button page etc.
[03:33] <artnay> and separate all the logos under different /*buntuArtwork pages
[03:34] <artnay> and you could navigate to those /*buntuArtwork pages though /Artwork
[03:38] <artnay> and the general feedback page is kind of useless. it *should* receive so much comments that it would be hard to navigate it
[03:38] <artnay> my proposal was to have a wiki page for each project. one to contain dependencies, members, current state, issues etc.
[03:38] <artnay> and other one for wip artwork and comments
[03:39] <artnay> it would be easier to track the comments that have something to do with projects one is interested of
[03:39] <jsgotangco> UbuntuArtwork/KubuntuArtwork/etc?
[03:40] <artnay> jsgotangco: UbuntuArtwork, KubuntuArtwork, EdubuntuArtwork and XubuntuArtwork for now (in order of appereance)
[03:40] <artnay> but the issue was how to cover those projects that are being worked on several *buntus
[03:41] <artnay> mainly UbuntuArtwork and EdubuntuArtwork as they use the same GNOME software in many cases
[03:42] <artnay> so, we would have ended to /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Metacity etc.
[03:43] <artnay> I find the current structure much harder to navigate as it hides a lot of essential information under several pages
[03:44] <artnay> I consider /ArtworkTeam/Proposals to be the most important page currently, but it's hidden and the links are without explanations
[03:45] <jsgotangco> hmmm xchat is locking up on me again
[03:45] <artnay> mhz_dinner: 
[03:45] <artnay> how's gnome-xchat anyways?
[03:46] <jsgotangco> hideous in my opinion
[03:47] <artnay> hey, GNOME's splash
[03:50] <artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=108761&page=4 - #1 and #33
[03:53] <artnay> any comments on those? if the metacity theme will be rounded, how about using the third one on #1? #33 is a nice approach, try it :o
[03:55] <klepas> 33 is nice
[03:55] <klepas> but i doubt we have any say in the matter
[03:56] <artnay> umh, isn't that against CoC? ;p
[03:56] <artnay> I mean, of course we should have some input, but the decision would be made by canonical devs and mark
[03:57] <artnay> and if they don't have time for that nor hired experts, who will do that?
[04:00] <klepas> yea, i guess
[04:00] <klepas> i might have a crack at it then after i do this splash for sweep :)
[04:07] <artnay> how about background?
[04:08] <asdax> hallo everybody
[04:08] <artnay> hey
[04:08] <asdax> i think all the pixel graphics icons should be replaced with svg in the next realese
[04:08] <artnay> what's on your mind?
[04:08] <asdax> if it would be possible, it is much cooler when you can scale all icons
[04:08] <artnay> it's not possible in every case AFAIK
[04:08] <asdax> witch case not?
[04:09] <artnay> and SVGs are heavier than PNGs
[04:09] <klepas> asdax: that is up to whether the underlying technology can
[04:09] <artnay> but yes, I love SVGs
[04:09] <klepas> not the artists
[04:09] <artnay> :)
[04:09] <asdax> not when they are rederd once
[04:09] <asdax> :P
[04:09] <asdax> but like all desktop icons
[04:09] <klepas> for example Qt in KDE 4 will have full SVG support
[04:09] <asdax> becouse its very nice when one can scale them (i use big icons)
[04:09] <artnay> asdax: I fully agree on that
[04:09] <klepas> asdax: rendering a PNG icon is easier for the computer than rendering SVGs
[04:10] <asdax> but i had to replace alot of icons that where pixelbased becouse they looked so ugly when they where scaled
[04:10] <artnay> yep, and it's much easier to change colours when you don't need gimp files etc.
[04:10] <asdax> yes :)
[04:10] <artnay> asdax: but the case is that we have no clue of the next icon set
[04:10] <asdax> are you all active in the making of the graphics for the next realese of ubuntu?
[04:10] <artnay> yasis is one chance
[04:10] <artnay> no we're not
[04:11] <asdax> oki
[04:11] <asdax> i could contribute some svg graphics
[04:11] <asdax> i made my own icon for the harddrive becouse that one was pixelbased
[04:11] <artnay> that would be great
[04:11] <artnay> yep
[04:11] <asdax> where does the graphics developers hang around?
[04:11] <asdax> or who to contact about such things?
[04:11] <artnay> my suggestion would be to use human yasis as a base icon set and then modify it heavily
[04:12] <artnay> use some tango icons, some andy's icons etc.
[04:12] <jsgotangco> you mean art that comes in the distro? that's contracted outside
[04:12] <asdax> oki
[04:12] <jsgotangco> the tango icons need some changes
[04:12] <artnay> just use ubuntu palette in those icons and add a unified reflection to all icons
[04:12] <asdax> is that the one that is the default in breezer?
[04:12] <jsgotangco> to match the palette
[04:12] <artnay> from left above, just like tango is doing
[04:13] <asdax> who is tango?
[04:13] <artnay> jsgotangco: yep, I think tango is a bit too colourful
[04:14] <artnay> just type "tango icon project" in your fx's address bar
[04:14] <artnay> that will do it :)
[04:14] <asdax> i have no tango command
[04:15] <artnay> wait, I'll give you the address
[04:15] <asdax> but the people in here are the onces responsible for the graphics shiped with ubuntu?
[04:15] <artnay> http://tango-project.org/Tango_Icon_Gallery
[04:15] <klepas> i might be off
[04:15] <klepas> good night folks
[04:15] <jsgotangco> night klepas 
[04:15] <artnay> its license is CC-SA 2.5 which is debian takes as a free license
[04:15] <jsgotangco> have a good one
[04:16] <klepas> cheers
[04:16] <artnay> it permits everyone to change the palette etc.
[04:16] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:16] <artnay> no, none of us here is responsible for what is being included in default installation
[04:16] <asdax> i want to get involved alite with that
[04:16] <asdax> i like to make svg graphics :)
[04:17] <asdax> who are working with that then?
[04:17] <artnay> sure, one thing would to form a team to be responsible for the icon set
[04:17] <artnay> umh, I don't have any idea of that :o
[04:17] <jsgotangco> that's contracted outside for now (especially the wallpaper)
[04:17] <artnay> I don't know who did the background, who did the metacity theme etc.
[04:18] <artnay> jsgotangco: which parts of DE have been outsourced?
[04:18] <asdax> :P
[04:18] <artnay> artwork in ubuntu to be precise
[04:18] <asdax> so what are people in here doing then?
[04:19] <jsgotangco> asdax, we're trying to form a team you see
[04:19] <asdax> aha
[04:19] <artnay> asdax: umh, tweaking their own DEs and having a chat with people interested in ubuntu artwork
[04:19] <jsgotangco> and we've been trying to do that since breezy
[04:19] <asdax> what is a DE?
[04:19] <artnay> acronym for desktop enviroment
[04:19] <artnay> damn typos
[04:19] <asdax> oki
[04:20] <artnay> jsgotangco: yes, but there are a few things that have been preventing people to fully contribute on ubuntu artwork
[04:20] <asdax> what things?
[04:21] <jsgotangco> well there's a.u.c. but its terribly tedious work for admins
[04:21] <artnay> the lack of information, clear goals, disorganization
[04:21] <asdax> oki
[04:21] <asdax> auc? is that on organisation?
[04:22] <artnay> we've been trying to get answers to our questions but haven't succeded in that
[04:22] <asdax> :P
[04:22] <artnay> no, it's http://art.ubuntu.com
[04:22] <asdax> seems to be very much disorganisation then ;)
[04:22] <artnay> AUC should be the primary web site for ubuntu artwork
[04:22] <jsgotangco> silbs used to be involved but she seemed a bit busy lately
[04:23] <jsgotangco> artnay, yes, me and henrik talked about moving it to moin
[04:23] <artnay> jsgotangco: volvo and I have sent several mails to different people without getting replies
[04:23] <asdax> oki
[04:23] <jsgotangco> who?
[04:23] <jsgotangco> jeff?
[04:23] <artnay> and we have even /msg'd "hey, drop me a msg when you're there"
[04:23] <asdax> hope the rest of the ubuntu project is better organaiset :P
[04:24] <jsgotangco> asdax, define organized :)
[04:24] <artnay> jsgotangco: no, not jeff. I've spoken to many devs and they have instructed to contact PR people
[04:24] <asdax> :P
[04:24] <jsgotangco> PR people?
[04:24] <artnay> Jane*
[04:24] <jsgotangco> silber?
[04:24] <artnay> and W
[04:24] <jsgotangco> but JaneW is a project person
[04:25] <artnay> volvo sent his first mail back in july
[04:25] <jsgotangco> she's not involved in development at all
[04:25] <jsgotangco> she'll pass whatever info/email she gets to a dev or a community member that can give an answer
[04:26] <artnay> ok, good to know
[04:27] <jsgotangco> she's a really nice lady really
[04:27] <artnay> asdax: many of us have contributed a way or another. the main issue is just that we haven't organized, combined our strenghts to pick the best artwork out there
[04:27] <asdax> is volvo someone who use to hang around in this channel?
[04:27] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:27] <asdax> :P
[04:27] <artnay> he is the artwork team leader
[04:27] <jsgotangco> he's one of the original artwork people
[04:27] <artnay> take a look at the member list
[04:27] <asdax> oki
[04:28] <jsgotangco> but he got into some health problems lately
[04:28] <asdax> does volvo use to hang around in this channel?
[04:28] <artnay> yep, he was in a surgery
[04:28] <jsgotangco> and i haven't seen andy for quite a while 
[04:28] <asdax> oki
[04:28] <artnay>  /last volvo = no result
[04:28] <artnay> excludind what we spoke :o
[04:29] <asdax> dont know what excludind means :P
[04:29] <asdax> sorry
[04:29] <artnay> excluding
[04:29] <asdax> aha
[04:30] <asdax> then i think i know
[04:32] <asdax> what harddrive icons do you use?
[04:32] <asdax> i maybe should show you the one i made
[04:32] <artnay> windows vista :(
[04:32] <asdax> do you use the original?
[04:32] <asdax> are you running on windows vista? (is that realesed?) :P
[04:32] <artnay> actually I don't even have a working computer now
[04:32] <artnay> friend's laptop
[04:32] <asdax> aha
[04:33] <artnay> all my three computers are broken at the moment
[04:33] <artnay> I'm waiting for new HW
[04:33] <artnay> that's why I missed the meeting, damn :/
[04:33] <asdax> i thought vista wasnt realesed yet, but i am not that up to date with the windows world :P
[04:33] <artnay> it's not
[04:33] <asdax> is there hardwere errors in all 3 of your computers?
[04:34] <artnay> it will most probably be released before dapper+1
[04:34] <asdax> oki :P
[04:34] <asdax> has it leaked out on the internet then or how did you friend got it?
[04:34] <artnay> yep, one crashes even in BIOS, one doesn't send VGA signal and one doesn't even boot
[04:34] <artnay> MSDN subscriber
[04:34] <asdax> oki
[04:35] <asdax> did you do anything special with the computers when they got strange?
[04:35] <artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=1600&c=3
[04:35] <artnay> there's the hd icon I use
[04:35] <artnay> not actually, I didn't use one for a long time
[04:36] <asdax> oki
[04:36] <artnay> and one just crashed after 17 days of uptime
[04:36] <artnay> and since that it has kept crashing even in BIOS
[04:36] <asdax> does windows vista look nice or is it as ugly as xp? :p
[04:36] <artnay> I was pleasantly surprised by the changes (at least artwork changes :>)
[04:36] <artnay> aero black kicks luna's ass big time
[04:36] <asdax> nice screenshot, it looks alite bit mac
[04:37] <asdax> what windowsmanager do you use?
[04:37] <artnay> and this one has nice effects
[04:37] <artnay> KWin
[04:37] <asdax> oki
[04:37] <asdax> never heard of
[04:37] <artnay> it's KDE running there
[04:37] <asdax> aha :P
[04:38] <artnay> KWin is what Metacity to GNOME
[04:38] <asdax> oki
[04:38] <artnay> damn, now I'm starting to miss verbs as well :)
[04:38] <asdax> but you dont use everything in kde, just some parts of it that is kwin then?
[04:39] <artnay> KWin takes care of the windecos etc.
[04:39] <jsgotangco> i gotta crash
[04:39] <jsgotangco> good night
[04:39] <artnay> bye
[04:39] <artnay> and it was nice talking with you
[04:40] <asdax> bye bye
[04:40] <artnay> WM != DE
[04:40] <jsgotangco> neat-o
[04:41] <asdax> DE is KDE with all menys and everything and WM is just for moving the windows and so on?
[04:41] <asdax> :P
[04:41] <asdax> or am i wrong?
[04:41] <artnay> DE includes lots of other stuff what WMs are mostly missing
[04:41] <asdax> like menus?
[04:41] <artnay> like file managers, music players, internet browser etc.
[04:42] <artnay> look at the wikipedia, it might explain the difference
[04:42] <artnay> but DEs include WMs
[04:42] <asdax> oki :)
[04:42] <artnay> but, umh, I have to get going
[04:42] <asdax> oki, C U
[04:42] <asdax> have a nice day!
[04:42] <artnay> I might come back later today, depends on what will happen
[04:42] <asdax> oki
[04:42] <artnay> you too, hope to see you here again
[04:43] <artnay> bue
[05:17] <derek[] > bbl