[02:53] <robotgeek> howdy Madpilot 
[02:53] <Madpilot> hi robotgeek
[02:54] <robotgeek> do you have the link for update  manager, to move to dapper?
[02:54] <Madpilot> me? nope.
[02:54] <robotgeek> heh, i'll ask google :)
[02:55] <Madpilot> I assume that editing your sources.list & running dist-upgrade works?
[02:56] <robotgeek> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/231
[03:31] <Madpilot> ping mdke
[03:44] <Madpilot> after I upload my new key to Launchpad, do I have to re-sign the CoC?
[03:52] <lambert> If I want to understand current organization of the wiki, where do I go to learn
[03:53] <Madpilot> lambert: here, except that it's pretty quiet right now
[03:55] <Madpilot> lambert: there's also the mailing list
[03:55] <lambert> not real big on mailing lists
[03:56] <Madpilot> most of the Ubuntu dev stuff - including the doc/wiki team - is done w/ mailing lists when it isn't on IRC...
[03:57] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam
[03:57] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiGuide
[03:57] <lambert> My main question is, in going to the wiki, how does one dicipher(??spell check) official doc from just user added scrapbook type good information
[03:58] <lambert> especially when just doing a search and getting a page of page links
[03:58] <Madpilot> you've got to just look at likely-looking pages, really - and if you can, help improve the "scrapbook"-level pages
[03:59] <lambert> From a user perspective, there should be something that stands out to the users
[03:59] <lambert> yellow back ground verified page
[03:59] <lambert> pink back ground scrapbook type page
[03:59] <Madpilot> the links off UserDocumentation are (generally) the good stuff
[04:00] <Madpilot> by "scrapbook" pages, do you mean the developer's pages? There's a lot of them, and they're pretty useless to ordinary users...
[04:01] <lambert> my term scrapbook could be a communication barrier in what I'm trying to express
[04:01] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsbAdslModem <-- "scrapbook" like this page, with no real formatting?
[04:01] <lambert> not really a developers page, but a page added by an ordinary user, something that may be incomplete and "proceed with caution"
[04:02] <Madpilot> OK
[04:02] <Madpilot> the best way to avoid pages like that is to use the links off https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation
[04:02] <Madpilot> Generally speaking, docs linked to from there will not be scrapbook types, or at least they'll be marked as such if they are
[04:03] <lambert> How is the perception of how a user uses the wiki?
[04:03] <lambert> from the userdocumentation page or just a search?
[04:04] <Madpilot> given that the wiki's search engine sucks, for a variety of reasons, I'd hope the UserDocs page is used...
[04:04] <jsgotangco> "official" doc work is svn
[04:04] <Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
[04:04] <jsgotangco> majority of docs in wiki are community contributed
[04:04] <jsgotangco> hi brian
[04:04] <jsgotangco> where's corey, our best-selling author to be?
[04:04] <jsgotangco> *grin*
[04:05] <Madpilot> on a business trip to Toronto
[04:05] <jsgotangco> wow
[04:05] <jsgotangco> jetsetter, he is
[04:05] <Madpilot> he may have even had to wear a tie, the poor SOB... :P
[04:05] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:05] <jsgotangco> did you see my blog post on sabdfl
[04:05] <Madpilot> yeah - haircut, tie and all...
[04:05] <jsgotangco> scary
[04:06] <jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/headgeekette has it all
[04:07] <Madpilot> lambert: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup has lots of 'scrapbook' type pages, if you're feeling like cleaning some up
[04:07] <lambert> jsgotangco: kind of where I'm trying to get at and understand, when a user comes to wiki, what sets apart and "brings attention" to the user what they are using and if they move forward what the extent of the information is
[04:08] <lambert> Madpilot: I started working here but took a break until I understand how to clean it up and what to do with it...
[04:08] <jsgotangco> lambert, wiki entries though, are cleaned up thoroughly and sometimes fixed by some people of the docteam
[04:08] <jsgotangco> lambert, but there's no distinction in the wiki about official and scrap stuff for now
[04:08] <jsgotangco> because its always open season in the wiki
[04:09] <jsgotangco> the most stable is always help.ubuntu.com (from the svn repos)
[04:09] <lambert> any idea on visit comparison between wiki and help.ubuntu... where do more users go?
[04:10] <Madpilot> probably the wiki still, help.u.c is newer - but that's just a guess
[04:10] <jsgotangco> nahh wiki gets more hits 
[04:11] <lambert> From my point, I'd like to see some indicator of what I'm read, just an open season entry or something a little more scrutinized (need my third grade spelling be expert)
[04:13] <Madpilot> lambert: we're talking about adding more controls to the wiki, so we can stabilize the good docs
[04:18] <lambert> No experience anywhere else, but I've heard good things about gentoo's documentation, has anybody looked at how others are doing it and maybe taking a page from their book?
[04:18] <jsgotangco> yeah gentoo wiki is pretty radical
[04:19] <jsgotangco> they're so good they even create their docs in their own markup
[04:19] <jsgotangco> :)
[04:19] <Madpilot> that sounds very gentoo-ish, doesn't it? :P
[04:20] <jsgotangco> we could learn a thing or two on the freebsd handbook as well
[04:21] <lambert> jsgotangco: do you know the gentoo wiki url off hand?
[04:21] <lambert> and yes I've heard good things about bsd docs also
[04:22] <jsgotangco> http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page
[04:23] <lambert> Looks like wikipedia wiki style? Is that mediawiki?
[04:23] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:24] <jsgotangco> which is very good in terms of organization and presentation (in my opinion)
[04:24] <lambert> Seems a lot of wiki's I see use media wiki. where did ubuntu's wiki choice of moinmoin come from?
[04:25] <jsgotangco> python :)
[04:26] <jsgotangco> we are worshippers of the all migthy python scripting language
[04:26] <Madpilot> I gather there's some PHP-phobics on the Canonical staff... :P
[04:27] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:27] <jsgotangco> manicka, hey
[04:28] <lambert> in the gentoo wiki, a couple "general searches" seems to always bring up a page and not a list of results....
[04:29] <manicka> hi
[04:29] <lambert> manicka
[04:30] <lambert> I like how their search works, not a bunch of links and pages need to work browse
[04:30] <jsgotangco> that's how mediawiki works
[04:30] <lambert> *links and pages needed to browse
[04:30] <manicka> what version of moinmoin does the wiki currently use
[04:31] <jsgotangco> most people like mediawiki because its a no-brainer to set up and it only takes 3 minutes to have a working wiki
[04:31] <manicka> *uses
[04:31] <jsgotangco> its not the same with moin moin
[04:31] <jsgotangco> but it is highly programmable
[04:31] <jsgotangco> look at ubuntu.com that's all moin moin
[04:31] <jsgotangco> we've even done the same with theopencd.org
[04:33] <lambert> my original question was understanding organization of wiki.ubuntu and I have to say it's very confusing to me....from my initial view of gentoo wiki it's a lot better to the end user
[04:34] <manicka> my understanding is that moinmoin1.5 incorporates a GUI editing interface. Is there any plans for the wiki to upgrade to it or use it?
[04:36] <Madpilot> it's been mentioned on the mailing list - can't remember what the maintainers said
[04:36] <manicka> it would improve the useability for users drastically
[04:37] <manicka> *dramatically
[04:37] <manicka> oh, you know what I mean
[04:37] <jsgotangco> lambert, alas, yes the only organization we could do at the moment with wiki.ubuntu.com are category cleanups
[04:38] <manicka> I've been having a look at the desktop edition, it's much easier to use
[04:38] <jsgotangco> really?
[04:38] <jsgotangco> maybe i've just been so used to moin syntax
[04:38] <jsgotangco> :/
[04:39] <manicka> yes, I think so, the Gui edit is very straight forward. It's a no brainer
[04:48] <lambert> manicka: anything special needed to instal desktop version?
[04:49] <manicka> you need to have python installed
[04:51] <manicka> Just download and unzip it, then follow the instructions as per http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DesktopEdition
[04:54] <lambert> did it take long?
[04:58] <manicka> no, it's very simple
[04:59] <manicka> the whole is self contained and runs from within the unzipped folder
[04:59] <manicka> you just have to have python already installed
[04:59] <manicka> which most people have anyway
[05:00] <manicka> *whole thing
[05:02] <lambert> not working it seems, looks to be locked and getting an importerror: canno tnot import name failure
[05:07] <manicka> I used the ZIP file
[05:07] <manicka> http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/moin/moin-desktop-1.5.1-1.zip?download
[05:08] <KingBahamut> lambert
[05:09] <lambert> KingBahamut: :)
[05:10] <manicka> kb :)
[05:10] <lambert> manicka: my fault, unziped as root in my user folder and tried running as root, deleted and did everything as me, works find now.
[05:26] <lambert> So, on the wikitodo page, with something like this
[05:26] <lambert> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/'setkeycodes_e02a_%3ckeycode%3e'_issue?highlight=%28CategoryCleanup%29
[05:26] <lambert> What is expected to happen to a page like that? expanded? merged into something else?
[05:45] <Madpilot> merged, if anyone actually knows what the original poster was talking about... :P
[06:05] <lambert> and if the page is merged, delete the original?
[06:12] <Madpilot> depends
[06:13] <Madpilot> if it's a page that's actually used, redirect to the new page
[06:13] <Madpilot> if it's not linked to from anywhere, nuke it
[06:13] <Madpilot> redirect is safer, though
[06:17] <lambert> thanks for your time and good night....
[11:48] <k31th> Yo
[11:48] <k31th> MOrning all
[11:49] <mdke> morning
[11:51] <jsgotangco> mdke: what was that script for?
[11:51] <jsgotangco> to creat pots?
[11:52] <mdke> no, it's for generating xml from translated po files downloaded from rosetta
[11:52] <mdke> jbailey wrote it last release cycle
[11:53] <mdke> damn, you are at work
[11:53] <mdke> sucks
[11:54] <jsgotangco> yeah :/
[11:54] <jsgotangco> i've been here since 10am
[11:54] <jsgotangco> its now 7pm
[11:54] <mdke> ouch
[11:54] <robotgeek> take a break jsgotangco 
[11:54] <jsgotangco> id love to kick the butt of that developer somewhere down under
[11:56] <k31th> well i just got up
[11:56] <k31th> its almost 11AM here :D
[11:57] <jsgotangco> i should have been doing other work today :/
[11:57] <jsgotangco> oh well
[11:57] <k31th> my glands are up i sence a cold coming on
[12:04] <k31th> this machine flys now i got ubuntu on it
[03:31] <dsas> Is the correct place for reporting bugs in the ubuntu desktop guide here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs ?
[03:32] <mdke> dsas, yes, that's fine
[03:33] <dsas> ok, the desktop guide points to just ubuntu/+bugs
[03:33] <dsas> however the status is marked as in progress - so will that page be changing in the near future anyway?
[03:33] <dsas> status of the relevant page that is.
[03:34] <mdke> dsas, maybe. But file your bug
[03:34] <mdke> or if it's easy, tell me and I'll fix it now
[03:35] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:35] <jsgotangco> want to do a triage now?
[03:36] <mdke> i'm trying to clear up the tips and tricks section of the desktopguide
[03:36] <mdke> any ideas for splitting it into subsections are really welcome
[03:36] <mdke> at the moment I've only got as far as "desktop customisation" and "system tweaks"
[03:37] <mdke> maybe "program tweaks" too
[03:37] <jsgotangco> hmmm im not that familiar with the desktopguide yet
[03:37] <jsgotangco> well system pertains to the OS
[03:37] <dsas> the bug is that in the desktopguide/preface.xml the reporting bugs bit has anchor text says "ubuntu bugzilla"
[03:37] <jsgotangco> programs may mean some applications
[03:38] <mdke> dsas, oh good, that's an easy one. thanks
[03:38] <dsas> and that link uses an entity which goes to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs rather than straight to the ubuntu-docs bug bit
[03:38] <dsas> that may take slightly longer to solve though :)
[03:39] <mdke> about 5 seconds longer :)
[03:40] <dsas> ok - wasn't sure whether or not you'd bother making a new entity or something - no idea how long that takes either though :)
[03:40] <mdke> yeah I've made a new one, thanks
[03:42] <jsgotangco> gyahhh
[03:42] <jsgotangco> hrmm are we really sticking to xchat gnome :/
[03:42] <mdke> hope so, I really like it
[03:42] <dsas> me too
[03:43] <dsas> what does "NO STATUS" mean in the desktop starter guide status page? There's some content in the guide, so is the status out of date, or has there been no decision on what wants doing with that content? 
[03:43] <mdke> tbh, that status page is not really updated
[03:44] <mdke> i might get round to it later
[03:44] <dsas> ok, just wondering.
[03:47] <dsas> would anyone happen to know if ubuntu abides by the lsb filesystem hierarchy standard, or the debian one?
[03:48] <dsas> actually I guess i'd be better asking that in -devel
[04:25] <dsas> mdke: ping
[04:29] <lambert> how does one redirect from one page to another, just add comments or is there a way the page automatically loads the newer page?
[04:30] <dsas> lambert: in the page just write #REDIRECT NewPage
[04:32] <lambert> neat, if one wanted to see the old page is it possible?
[04:34] <dsas> not really
[04:35] <dsas> You'd have to do append ?action=raw on the end of the old url.
[04:35] <dsas> or ?action=edit to edit it
[04:43] <jsgotangco> i gotta crash
[04:43] <jsgotangco> good night
[04:43] <dsas> jsgotangco: night
[06:07] <Bonzodog> I have an interesting question: how would you lot feel about the forums tweaker team getting involved with the doc team, led by arnieboy?
[06:08] <Bonzodog> Arnieboy is tweaker team lead who are responsible for the how-to sections of the forum
[07:20] <lambert> I see a lot of pages with just a simple quick tip like this one/
[07:20] <lambert> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HideRecentDocumentsHowto
[07:20] <lambert> Is there a page where these can be consolidate to or maybe an idea of consolidating these and redirecting them to a "quick tip" type page/
[07:56] <lambert> If someone gets a chance, just curious if this is a good or bad idea/
[07:56] <lambert> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuickTips
[07:59] <lambert> Would page get to long and a better idea be more like the wifidocs section, single page that links to multiple pages
[07:59] <Kinnison> ciau now
[08:47] <mdke> lambert, i think it's best to have separate pages, because then they show up in searches. otherwise, a user looking for an answer might not see it
[08:48] <mdke> lambert, we can include cool tips in the desktop guide though
[08:51] <onovy> hi
[08:52] <onovy> why is not gnome-applets in dapper translatable? (in launchapad) https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/gnome-applets/+translations - in breezy it is
[08:53] <mdke> onovy, dapper is not ready for translation yet
[08:53] <crimsun> we haven't gotten to string freeze yet, correct?
[08:53] <onovy> so if i want translate something i can translate it in breezy?
[08:53] <mdke> crimsun, don't think so. Certainly not doc freeze
[08:54] <onovy> and it will be (maybe) merged?
[08:54] <mdke> onovy, yep
[09:06] <onovy> ok, thx byr
[09:06] <onovy> *bye
[11:25] <theCore> LaserJock, hi
[11:41] <LaserJock> theCore: hi, how's it going?
[11:43] <theCore> great!, you?
[11:43] <LaserJock> just got back from a conference
[11:43] <theCore> (btw, I got my new hard drive!)
[11:43] <LaserJock> a little tired but it was good
[11:43] <LaserJock> cool
[11:44] <theCore> I finish installing some apps and I'm going to work on the PG
[11:44] <LaserJock> great