[08:08] <lifeless> jamesh: ping
[08:08] <jamesh> lifeless: pong
[08:08] <lifeless> can I give you a quick call ?
[08:08] <jamesh> sure.  Or Skype if you want
[08:08] <lifeless> nah, phone is phine
[08:28] <ddaa> hELLO
[08:34] <SteveA> ddaa: hello
[08:34] <SteveA> ddaa: meeting in 1.5 hrs?
[08:34] <ddaa> I think so.
[08:34] <ddaa> I do not have much of an agenda for today.
[08:35] <SteveA> today i think we should go through what is left to do, and how jamesh can contribute
[08:36] <ddaa> issue is that there's some disagreement on what is "minimal", if I recall correctly
[08:37] <ddaa> But I'll draft something based on my idea of minimal at least.
[08:37] <SteveA> great
[08:37] <SteveA> sometimes it is better to get a working system that does not do enough
[08:37] <SteveA> than a system that will do enough later, but does not work yet
[08:37] <ddaa> yes
[08:37] <ddaa> sometimes
[08:37] <ddaa> and sometimes you should stop piling up
[09:19] <SteveA> ddaa: indeed
[09:28] <sivang> morning all
[10:17] <stub> Kinnison: What is emailing the queue_builder notifications out? I need something a bit brighter than cron for our other scheduled jobs.
[10:18] <Kinnison> The buildd sequencer
[10:19] <Kinnison> check out daemons/buildd-sequencer.tac
[10:19] <Kinnison> and follow from there
[10:19] <Kinnison> stub: You and I need to coordinate for the rollout tomorrow
[10:19] <Kinnison> stub: what time (UTC) do you tend to begin?
[10:20] <Kinnison> stub: begin the rollout that is
[10:20] <stub> Kinnison: Don't really care - am your time is probably best.
[10:20] <Kinnison> Right
[10:20] <stub> What time UTC are you suitably caffinated and enthused?
[10:20] <Kinnison> umm, it's 09.20 now, so 09.30 tomorrow ?
[10:21] <stub> Sure.
[10:21] <Kinnison> Excellent
[10:21] <Kinnison> Basically the issue is how to clear-down the ftpmaster box while updates occur I think
[10:21] <Kinnison> I'll talk with elmo today about the queue-builder which is the only dangerous part right now
[10:22] <Kinnison> if the update isn't going to touch the db or librarian then we don't have to clear-down the ftpmaster box
[10:22] <stub> I might need a big red button to push sometime in the future if the systems don't gracefully handle the DB going away.
[10:22] <Kinnison> aye
[10:22] <Kinnison> We'll work on making them more resilient
[10:22] <stub> (or the librarian uploads failing)
[10:22] <Kinnison> but for now we'll have to coordinate each update to ensure nothing horrible happens
[10:23] <stub> Ok
[10:23] <stub> You getting the missing import os.path exceptions btw? 
[10:25] <Kinnison> whatnow?
[10:26] <Kinnison> since that has all this stuff on for the weekend
[10:28] <Kinnison> stub: oh yeah, that should stop now
[10:29] <Kinnison> can you /msg me how to do that effectively?
[10:31] <einheit_> bjorn says his internet connection is down for the next hour or so
[10:32] <stub> einheit_: ack
[10:36] <Kinnison> Hmm, internet, that reminds me
[11:00] <Kinnison> hi jeffy
[11:01] <jbailey> Bah, my machine's inability to cope with only having 256 megs of ram is going to make me violent soon.
[11:01] <jbailey> g'm Mr. D1
[11:01] <jbailey> !
[11:02] <jbailey> Looking at: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/glibc/+buildlog, I'm wondering if there's any way to tell at a glace that the package either succeeded or failed to build?
[11:02] <jbailey> The old ~lamont stuff used to have the pass/fail state encoded in the filename, which was conveninent.
[11:03] <jbailey> The second question is if it's possible to convince the librarian that it should hand over .gz files encoded in the way that makes Browsers simply happy to unpack them and display them as text/plain.
[11:04] <jbailey> The web server that had the ports archives had this setup correctly, people.ubuntu.com never did.
[11:04] <Kinnison> jbailey: the first one, not currently but it would not be hard to add
[11:04] <Kinnison> jbailey: the second one, is a librarian issue and I don't know how to fix it, spiv might
[11:04] <Kinnison> jbailey: so file the first as a bug on /products/soyuz
[11:05] <Kinnison> jbailey: and the second as a bug on /products/launchpad
[11:05] <jbailey> Lovely, thanks.
[11:05] <Kinnison> make the second one a high priority
[11:05] <Kinnison> and bug daf to triage it highly too
[11:07] <jbailey> Hmm.
[11:07] <jbailey> I should file a wishlist bug that searches should be done as exact match searches first, followed by FTI searches.
[11:07] <jbailey> Having the match I want halfway down the list always confuses me.
[11:08] <jbailey> Do the launchpad bug triagers also look through the support requests and such?
[11:08] <Kinnison> yeah, FTI *should* put the exact matches near the top anyway
[11:08] <Kinnison> jbailey: dunno what happens with support requests
[11:08] <jbailey> Some of these things seem lke they're not exactly bugs.
[11:09] <Kinnison> you should ask daf what he does with support requests
[11:09] <jbailey> Right, but near the top generally means that I'm having to actually parse the list.  When I'm searching for soyuz, having it come second in the list of two just feels weird.
[11:09] <Kinnison> since daf appears to be our frontline triage nurse
[11:11] <stub> jbailey, Kinnison: The Librarian simply spits out files with the mimetype that they were stored with. I imagine if firefox is not doing the right thing when you click on a librarian link, either the local handler for that mimetype is stuffed or we are storing the incorrect mime type.
[11:12] <jbailey> stub: gzip'd files are a bit of a special case.
[11:12] <daf> I haven't been paying much attention to support requests
[11:12] <jbailey> Technically, a gzip'd text file should be downloaded.  The trick is that web browsers can cope with it as just being compressed data and handle the underlying mime type.
[11:12] <stub> Ok. We might need to improve the Librarian then to cope. I'm not sure about special handling for gzip stuff.
[11:12] <daf> I can start doing so if we're getting some
[11:13] <jbailey> stub: I'll look up what the hack is and get you the information.  Do you want it on the launchpad list?
[11:13] <jbailey> daf: I think in many cases what i'm filing are really support requests clothed as bugs.
[11:13] <stub> jbailey: A bug report might be more appropriate, or the launchpad list.
[11:13] <LarstiQ> iirc, lifeless has commented on wrongly dealing with gzipped content before (either on #bzr or on the corresponding list)
[11:14] <daf> jbailey: I don't think we have the ability to turn bugs into support requests yet
[11:14] <jbailey> We've never really settled down and said what a bug is, and what a support request is.  I tend to think of them as "bugs tell me something that specifically should be changed in code, a module, etc. because it's clearly wrong"
[11:14] <Kinnison> stub: Hmm, we call filenameToContentType in the build master
[11:14] <Kinnison> stub: if that were changed so that .txt.gz was given some appropriate mime type then things may work better
[11:15] <stub> I can't recall the details of how all that was put together :-)
[11:15] <stub> Might be simple or we might need to store the compression type seperately from the mime type
[11:17] <stub> I think matsubara might be involved with support requests and bug triage - might want to talk to kiko if you are sick of doing all the triage daf.
[11:18] <daf> stub: Steve and matsubara and I are all working on the bug stuff
[11:18] <stub> k
[11:18] <daf> he will be taking on a QA sort of role
[11:19] <jbailey> daf: Right.  I haven't explored the support stuff in really big detail.
[11:20] <daf> me neither
[11:20] <daf> I think there's nobody actively working on it
[11:21] <Kinnison> Right, I think I know what to do
[11:21] <Kinnison> (for the librarian)
[11:21] <Kinnison> give me a sec to test it
[11:23] <jbailey> Ubugtu: lazy.
[11:24] <Kinnison> Okay, I've set the build master to use text/plain for the build logs
[11:25] <Kinnison> let's see if that allows the content-encoding to work
[11:25] <Kinnison> it'll need to be a fresh build log
[11:25] <jbailey> daf: Looking at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+ticket/220, I see a "link existing bug" to it.
[11:25] <jbailey> Lemme try it.
[11:26] <Kinnison> http://librarian.launchpad.net/1557840/buildlog_ubuntu-dapper-powerpc.pornview_0.2pre1-5build1.txt.gz
[11:26] <Kinnison> bo! yakka! shar!
[11:26] <jbailey> daf: Right, so the many-to-one relationship actually works in the support tracker, but it would put more work on you in that you'd have to create a malone report separately for each thing that actually turned out to be a bug.
[11:27] <jbailey> Kinnison: Lovely! =)
[11:27] <Kinnison> jbailey: I'll fashion a query for stub to run on production to update all the old buildlogs
[11:27] <jbailey> Kinnison: Thanks.  Do you still want me to file the bug report?
[11:27] <Kinnison> jbailey: not for that one
[11:28] <jbailey> daf: (This is the type of things I'd imagine going into a support request.  I don't actually know what was needed or what the fix is)
[11:28] <jbailey> So it feels like having that in malone wouldn't be optimal.
[11:28] <Kinnison> stub: will you be okay to run this query once I've done it?
[11:28] <stub> depends what it is. I havn't been following :)
[11:30] <daf> jbailey: hmm
[11:31] <jbailey> daf: Or the next one that I'm just about to cook up (searching for dups right now)
[11:31] <jbailey> daf: I want exact matches to show up first when searching.
[11:31] <daf> jbailey: do we know who, if anyone, handles support requests for Ubuntu?
[11:31] <jbailey> daf: I don't know the mechanics of what that means inside.  I suspect it means an exact match search before the FTI, but it seems wrong for me to lead the discussion with a completely uneducated thought on how it might happen.
[11:32] <jbailey> (re: Ubuntu) generally community folks looks at the support requests.
[11:32] <daf> ok
[11:32] <Kinnison> stub: thanks dude
[11:32] <stub> Kinnison, jbailey: query run
[11:32] <Kinnison> jbailey: old build logs mimetypes updated
[11:32] <daf> jbailey: that sounds more like a bug to me -- it requires coding
[11:32] <jbailey> A couple folks on the distro team (Mostly Colin) will occasionally look through because the user experience is a major part of what they're doing.
[11:32] <lifeless> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+builds?build_state=depwait
[11:33] <lifeless> is hard to read
[11:33] <jbailey> daf: It certainly might turn into a bug.  But I don't know that I didn't fail to click a magic button somewhere that says "prefer exact over full text", or whatnot.
[11:33] <daf> jbailey: well, in this case, I can tell you "it's a bug" :)
[11:33] <jbailey> daf: Yes, dear. =)
[11:33] <daf> jbailey: but in the general case, I see your point
[11:34] <jbailey> stub, Kinnison: Thanks!
[11:34] <daf> I think better support for converting tickets <-> bugs would be very welcome
[11:35] <jbailey> Right.  I wonder if it's possible to write/spec that without the experience of having done a few dozen by hand, though. =/
[11:36] <daf> jbailey: I'm sure I've seen a spec or bug about this somewhere
[11:37] <jbailey> daf: I'm just digging through the bug reports against launchpad right now to see.
[11:37] <Kinnison> stub: at some point I'd like for you to check out the dominator speedup fix james and I did
[11:37] <Kinnison> stub: it involves making a temporary table which is then used in an sqlobject query
[11:37] <Kinnison> stub: so I'd like you to cast your eye over it
[11:37] <stub> Sure. Point me to the code.
[11:37] <jbailey> daf: 28975
[11:38] <Kinnison> I'm just ensuring it's all committed and pushed
[11:38] <jbailey> Ubugtu: *lazy*
[11:38] <sivang> rehi
[11:38] <sivang> hey daf , 'sup?
[11:39] <Kinnison> Ubugtu: bug 28975
[11:39] <Ubugtu> malone bug 28975 in launchpad "Product search doesn't do partial word" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/28975
[11:39] <Kinnison> jbailey: I think you have to say bug 28975 for it to spot it.
[11:39] <Ubugtu> malone bug 28975 in launchpad "Product search doesn't do partial word" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/28975
[11:39] <Kinnison> see
[11:39] <jbailey> daf: 1022 is probably related, as is 1501.
[11:39] <jbailey> Ubugtu: Okay. You're only lazy for not having announced the soyuz bug.  I appologise for calling you lazy the second time.
[11:40] <Kinnison> jbailey: otherwise if I said "yeah, 2269 rows should be affected" we'd see bug 2269 appear.
[11:40] <Ubugtu> malone bug 2269 in launchpad "Bounty page doesn't include bounty value or creation date" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2269
[11:40] <Kinnison> which would annoy
[11:40] <jbailey> Fair enough.
[11:41] <lifeless> gnight
[11:41] <jbailey> g'n Robert.
[11:41] <sivang> night lifeless 
[11:42] <Kinnison> night lifeless 
[11:43] <lifeless> last think before I go
[11:43] <lifeless> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/i386/bicyclerepair/0.9-4
[11:43] <lifeless> 404
[11:43] <lifeless> erm, OOps
[11:43] <daf> jbailey: I think all three bugs are distinct
[11:43] <lifeless> Module sqlobject.main, line 1051, in selectOne
[11:43] <lifeless> raise SQLObjectMoreThanOneResultError(
[11:43] <Kinnison> lifeless: yeah, I've seen that
[11:44] <Kinnison> lifeless: good eh?
[11:44] <lifeless> OOPS-37C328
[11:44] <lifeless> tchau!
[11:44] <jbailey> daf: Sure.  I'm not sure which one of them might be my "please list my exact match first", though.
[11:44] <jbailey> The search in launchpad confuses me terribly.
[11:44] <daf> I think #1022 is closest
[11:44] <daf> mm, indeed
[11:45] <daf> one can resort to Google until we make it not suck
[11:45] <jbailey> thanks, I've subscribed to it now.
[11:45] <jbailey> I haven't tried that yet.
[11:45] <daf> haha!
[11:45] <daf> NameError: global name 'FailedLenWarning' is not defined
[11:46] <jbailey> daf, stub, Kinnison: Thanks for the help!
[11:46] <daf> any time :)
[11:48] <jbailey> Ooo, nice.  So when a support request is linked to a bug, it emails out a clickable link for the bug.
[11:49] <jbailey> So I suspect what the support tracker really needs is a cuddly way to turn it into a malone request, and then it would probably be useful.
[11:49] <daf> I think Bjrn is the man to talk to
[11:50] <daf> BjornT: around?
[11:50] <jbailey> Yeah.  I babbled with him a bunch at UBZ about different support tracker things.
[11:50] <jbailey> I wonder if that's a simple enough piece of functionality that it could get added without waiting for another spec/scheduling round.
[12:00] <jamesh> who do we have around for the reviewers meeting?
[12:00] <Kinnison> Morning cprov
[12:02] <jamesh> BjornT, spiv: ?
[12:04] <spiv> I'm here.
[12:04] <cprov> Kinnison: morning, dude ! how are you,  already recovered ?
[12:04] <Kinnison> cprov: recovered? hah
[12:04] <Kinnison> and I still need about 40 to 60 hours more
[12:04] <daf> sleepy Kinni
[12:05] <Kinnison> daf: and then some
[12:05] <Kinnison> daf: I almost fell asleep in the celebratory meal on saturday evening
[12:05] <jamesh> cprov: is salgado in yet?
[12:05] <cprov> Kinnison: really, I had plenty on the plan, business class again, felt lucky for a while ;)
[12:05] <cprov> jamesh: not yet, sorry
[12:05] <Kinnison> cprov: hehe
[12:06] <jamesh> cprov: okay.  Thanks.
[12:07] <cprov> Kinnison: be late, as a brazilian ... never check in earlier than 10 minutes before the permitted time, it will be a mess, but they will give you a comfy seat 
[12:08] <spiv> jamesh: Is the reviewers meeting happening?
[12:09] <jamesh> spiv: I guess so.  I was waiting a little while to see if anyone else turned up, but we may as well start
[12:10] <spiv> jamesh: Fair enough.
[12:10] <jamesh> spiv: lifeless sent his regrets, so I'm running the meeting tonight.
[12:10] <jamesh> salgado: just in time :)
[12:11] <salgado> brb
[12:11] <jbailey> Kinnison: In which order is https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/langpack-locales  sorted? =)
[12:11] <jamesh> so, how is everyone's queues looking?
[12:11] <Kinnison> jbailey: the bollocks first
[12:11] <spiv> Mine's looking good.
[12:11] <jamesh> I've got an old branch from BjornT that I haven't gotten round to finishing off :(
[12:11] <matsubara> good morning!
[12:11] <salgado> mine has only cprov's uploader-tests branch which needs reply
[12:12] <jamesh> lifeless said that he'd do BjornT's branch tomorrow
[12:12] <jbailey> Kinnison: Oh, I see it.  Left hand date because it's an action.
[12:13] <jamesh> we've got three branches on the general queue.
[12:14] <spiv> And those three are all fairly small.  I'm happy to take some of that.
[12:14] <jamesh> I'll tackle some after I've done Bjorn's
[12:14] <jamesh> should we just leave them on the general queue for now?
[12:15] <spiv> Suits me -- if I don't get any assigned to me by tomorrow morning, I'll just pluck one or two off the general queue.
[12:15] <jamesh> okay.  Same time next week?
[12:16] <spiv> Yeah.  Hopefully I'll remember next time, this is the second time in a row I've only been here by accident :)
[12:16] <salgado> same with me
[12:17] <jamesh> okay.  meeting ended.
[12:17] <salgado> but last time I wasn't here by accident
[12:17] <spiv> Cool.  It's a good sign that these meetings are so often painless, we seem to be keeping on top of things nicely.
[12:17] <spiv> jamesh: Thanks.
[12:20] <sivang> daf: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/rhythmbox , I'm a bit confused by the text. what does the first paragraph really means?
[12:23] <jamesh> I realised that my sqlobject __nonzero__ implementation had a bug that causes it to no faster than the old __len__() impl
[12:23] <jamesh> "select count(*) from ... limit 1" is as expensive as "select count(*) from ..."
[12:24] <jamesh> on the other hand, "select id from ... limit 1" does improve things
[12:25] <siretart> hi
[12:25] <siretart> I've sent an question to an rejected upload to archive@ubuntu.com
[12:25] <siretart> is that email actually read? or shall I better send my question to some other place?
[12:26] <siretart> it is basically about uploading to breezy-updates. it seems that I'm no longer allowed to upload there. is this intentional?
[12:27] <jbailey> I haven't tried an upload to -updates yet.
[12:27] <siretart> try one :)
[12:27] <jbailey> I have something queued up for hoary-updates that I've been meaning to do, but I need one last round of testing on it.
[12:27] <cprov> siretart: yep, it's in my pocket ;)
[12:27] <siretart> cprov: okay
[12:28] <cprov> siretart: give me just some minutes, I'll investigate it for you, thx for the feedback
[12:28] <siretart> spiv: say, about extending the rdf of groups to include gpg fingerprints, whats the status for that?
[12:28] <siretart> cprov: thanks
[12:29] <daf> sivang: perhaps cprov of Kinnison cnan explain
[12:29] <daf> cprov: are you taking over my soyuz-ui branch?
[12:31] <cprov> daf: probably yes, will update the review info ASAP, why isn't it reviewed yet ? any horrible issue or just delayed for lack of requested ?  the contents are trivial AFAICS
[12:31] <daf> I don't know why
[12:32] <SteveA> hi
[12:32] <daf> hi Steve
[12:34] <cprov> daf: right, I'll take it 
[12:39] <spiv> siretart: It's been stalled for a while; there's some mess in that code to deal with, but I should be able to get what you need merged without fixing it properly.  I'll do that tomorrow (thanks for the reminder, and your patience!)
[12:39] <siretart> thanks
[12:42] <SteveA> ddaa: ping
[12:43] <SteveA> stub: did you get an answer about retry exceptions?
[12:53] <StevenK> Are there any plans making the buildds logs a little easier to search? For example, by package and version?
[12:55] <Anubis> hi
[12:59] <Anubis> somebody Live?
[12:59] <BjornT> hi daf, i'm around now. was having lunch before.
[12:59] <carlos> Anubis: some of us, just ask whatever you need
[12:59] <carlos> ;-)
[12:59] <Anubis> i send request to 5 cd
[01:00] <Anubis> ubuntu
[01:00] <Anubis> its differents 5 cd?
[01:00] <carlos> if you didn't selected different architectures, no, they are the same CD
[01:01] <Anubis> its cd pack or just copy cd?
[01:01] <Anubis> 5 copy or pack?
[01:02] <carlos> they are packing on their own separate package
[01:02] <carlos> so you can redistribute it
[01:02] <daf> BjornT: jbailey and I were discussing the relationship between Malone and the support tracker
[01:03] <salgado> Anubis, you'll get 5 packs, where each pack contains a Live and Installation CD
[01:03] <daf> BjornT: do we have plans to make it easier to turns bugs into tickets and tickets into bugs?
[01:03] <Anubis> i need just 1 pack in 5 cd;s
[01:03] <Anubis> i from russia
[01:03] <daf> salgado: I saw a FailedLenWarning today :)
[01:03] <daf> or rather, a NameError
[01:04] <Anubis> in request form need only city no region?
[01:04] <Anubis> i write region & adress in adress button
[01:05] <salgado> daf, yeah, I saw that earlier. but that code is going to be removed from sqlobject (in case it isn't already), so SteveA said we don't need to bother fixing it
[01:05] <SteveA> jamesh: hello.  how's the __len__ removal landing goign?
[01:05] <daf> salgado: yeah -- it's just funny that I only saw it just as it was about to be removed
[01:05] <Anubis> so good luck
[01:06] <carlos> Anubis: We don't have all packages in those CDs, only the needed ones to get your basic desktop system working
[01:06] <carlos> Anubis: about the region thing... No idea, give as much information as you can
[01:06] <Anubis> apache+mysql required?
[01:07] <carlos> Anubis: I don't think so
[01:07] <BjornT> daf: not really. there's a bug open saying that it should be possible to turn bugs into support requests, and it should be quite simple to do. atm my focus is on malone, but i will try to find some time for the support tracker soon.
[01:07] <Anubis> ok
[01:07] <carlos> Anubis: but you can get them later 
[01:07] <carlos> after the installation ends, you can download them from Internet
[01:07] <daf> BjornT: cool -- do you know the bug number?
[01:08] <BjornT> daf: bug 3970
[01:08] <Ubugtu> malone bug 3970 in malone "Turn bugs into support requests" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3970
[01:08] <Anubis> thx for some support
[01:08] <daf> BjornT: thanks
[01:09] <carlos> Anubis: you are welcome
[01:09] <Anubis> :)
[01:09] <jordi> carlos: any progress on the "OMG I can't cleanup the import queue cruft!" bug?
[01:10] <Anubis> what kernel ubuntu basic?
[01:10] <carlos> jordi: nothing yet, but I can only say... I have the same problem now... :-(
[01:10] <jordi> ndo
[01:10] <carlos> Anubis: 2.4.12
[01:10] <carlos> sorry
[01:10] <Anubis> okey
[01:10] <carlos> 2.6.12
[01:10] <jordi> well, and SteveA was getting an error
[01:10] <Anubis> ok
[01:11] <salgado> stub, around?
[01:11] <SteveA> carlos: do you want some help with looking into this later?
[01:11] <SteveA> bbiab
[01:12] <carlos> SteveA: let me take a look first as I guess it's a really trivial bug and if ....
[01:12] <carlos> he left...
[01:12] <jordi> carlos: maybe psql 8 related?
[01:12] <jordi> it was working in the past
[01:12] <carlos> jordi: don't think so
[01:13] <carlos> at least I cannot think on any problem that the upgrade could cause...
[01:14] <jordi> ok
[01:27] <ddaa> SteveA: pong
[01:28] <ddaa> was on lunch break, had a much needed walk in a nearby park
[01:28] <SteveA> ddaa: great.  what's the temperature over there in the park?
[01:29] <ddaa> the pond has a couple of cm of ice on it
[01:29] <ddaa> but overall it's slightly above fridge temperature
[01:29] <SteveA> nice.  sounds refreshing.
[01:30] <ddaa> that's a way of putting it
[01:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> where should i send comments regarding the instructions for signing the ubuntu code of conduct? the ones in launchpad are almost non existant
[01:37] <SteveA> Kamping_Kaiser: the launchpad-users list is a good place for discussion
[01:37] <SteveA> otherwise, maybe there's a bug open on this?
[01:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> I'll check for  abug. I'm willing to write the instructions if wanted
[01:49] <salgado> SteveA, do you have a second to discuss bug 3033?
[01:49] <SteveA> salgado: i will have, but not right now
[01:50] <salgado> that's okay
[01:53] <SteveA> Ubugtu: where are you?
[01:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> i didnt notice a but open, so i wrote the help myself. shall i open a bug and attach the help i made? or just put it somewhere?
[01:54] <salgado> SteveA, that was a private bug, and he said so, but only to me
[01:55] <SteveA> salgado: ah -- cool new Ubugtu features.  Seveas has been working!
[01:55] <SteveA> salgado: would you discuss the CoC signing workflow with Kamping_Kaiser a bit please?
[01:56] <Seveas> bug 3033
[01:56] <SteveA> bug 3033
[01:56] <Seveas> hmm, I don't even remember having changed that...
[01:56] <salgado> SteveA, sure
[01:57] <Seveas> ah wait, I made him less verbose all over the place, this is a simple 'don't spit errors in channel' thing...
[01:57] <salgado> Kamping_Kaiser, do you think the help you wrote could fit in that same page where you sign the CoC or should it be placed in a FAQ or somethign similar?
[01:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> salgado: it's about 8 lines ( i just hammered it out then)
[01:58] <Seveas> Kamping_Kaiser, please have a look at the GnuPrivacyGuardHowto on the Ubuntu wiki too
[01:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> it could be expanded and made bigger
[01:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> looking'
[02:00] <salgado> I think it's better if it's succinct enough so we can fit it in that page
[02:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> fwiw http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/541507 is what i just did then, if linking to the GPGHT is better then that would be fine, it's just a bit confusing atm.
[02:04] <stub> salgado: yo
[02:04] <salgado> Kamping_Kaiser, I think that would fit better on https://launchpad.net/faq. what do you think?
[02:05] <cprov> siretart: could you move to ##soyuz1.0 for a brief talk ?
[02:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> salgado: yes, i think i would agree with that.
[02:05] <salgado> hi stub. I wanted to check with you if it's better to create a new cronscript to fix https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/3033 or if we can simply hook the fix into another cronscript
[02:06] <cprov> siretart: you have email
[02:06] <stub> SteveA: I found the relevant code. Just a matter of coding now on psycopgda to do what we need - I'll sort it upstream at the same time.
[02:06] <SteveA> this for retryinig  postgres conflicts?
[02:07] <SteveA> i expect the code is in the ZopePublication
[02:07] <stub> SteveA: deadlocks and seralization exceptions - yes
[02:07] <stub> salgado: It will need to be a seperate cronscript. Oscar the grouch does not exist yet.
[02:07] <salgado> Kamping_Kaiser, I'll add it to the faq, then. and will also add a link from the +sign page to the faq
[02:07] <SteveA> stub: we must stop calling it that
[02:08] <salgado> right, I'll create one, then
[02:08] <stub> SteveA: It is one of the more memorable silly names we have.
[02:08] <SteveA> stub: we need a name that isn't already taken by the mems-exchange zodb schema-checker
[02:08] <stub> (for those of us raised by Seasame Street, anyway)
[02:08] <SteveA> call it "cookie monster" instead then
[02:08] <Kamping_Kaiser> salgado: thanks :)
[02:08] <SteveA> mems-exchange got there first!
[02:08] <stub> Call it Bruce
[02:09] <SteveA> Bruce the Wanker ?
[02:09] <stub> Bruce is a suitable name for a garbo
[02:09] <SteveA> actually, it was Leo Wanker, wasn't it ?
[02:09] <salgado> Kaiser_Sleeps, you're welcome. :)
[02:09] <Kaiser_Sleeps> thanks :) good night. 
[02:10] <stub> SteveA: Who cares about mems-exchange anyway? This is a maintenance script that is pointless outside of Launchpad, not a seperately releasable product. (Not that i give a toss what it is called...)
[02:11] <stub> Hmm.... Greta... that is in theme
[02:11] <SteveA> my worry is that we'll have an OscarTheGrouch wiki page
[02:11] <stub> We do have one IIRC
[02:11] <SteveA> and python folks will think poorly of us for stealing another project's name for a similar kind of task
[02:11] <stub> It was a spec
[02:12] <SteveA> i called it "oscar the grouch" when i was comparing the script we'd need to what greg ward wrote
[02:12] <SteveA> but the name stuck
[02:13] <SteveA> i vant to be a lawn
[02:14] <stub> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/OscarTheGrouch
[02:14] <SteveA> GretaTheGarbo ?
[02:15] <Kinnison> stub: how about database-cruft-checker.py ?
[02:15] <stub> crufty the clown?
[02:16] <Kinnison> we don't need a stupid name y'know
[02:16] <stub> You mean it isn't policy? :-)
[02:17] <daf> you could be forgiven for thinking it is
[02:51] <cyberix> Would there be sense to have an anonymous mode that doesn't require login
[02:51] <cyberix> Like Wikipedia has
[02:54] <daf> you can use Launchpad anonymously
[02:54] <daf> but you need to be logged in to change most things
[02:54] <daf> what things do you suggest we allow anonymous users to change?
[02:55] <cyberix> daf: Almost anything, but this should then be reviewed and confirmed by registered users
[02:56] <fabbione> cyberix: wouldn't that add a lot of overhead for registered users?
[02:56] <cyberix> fabbione: Usually there are more of nonevildoers than evildoers :-)
[02:56] <fabbione> time and resources that could be spend doing something more useful than reviewing changes from anon users that are too lazy to register once
[02:57] <fabbione> the balance can't be measured. 
[02:57] <cyberix> fabbione: It is not that they are too lazy, but that they don't want to register an account e.g. to translate one string.
[02:57] <cyberix> fabbione: Because the overhead is then to register
[02:57] <daf> translations are a bit of a special case
[02:57] <cyberix> fabbione: And it is not the time that it takes to register
[02:58] <cyberix> It is simply that people are drowning in accounts these days
[02:58] <cyberix> Many want to minimize registering new ones.
[02:58] <daf> since we're planing on adding review functionality to Rosetta, it may one day become possible to contribute suggestions anonymously
[02:58] <daf> however, we can't do it in the general case easily
[02:59] <daf> OpenID may help with account management
[02:59] <cyberix> Wikipedia uses IP-addresses for nonregistered users
[03:00] <daf> yes, but we're not Wikipedia
[03:00] <cyberix> No
[03:00] <daf> Wikipedia consists of a set of pages
[03:00] <daf> Launchpad is composed of many different kinds of resources
[03:00] <daf> and supporting anonymous edits would require modifications to all of them
[03:02] <daf> I think, on the whole, we'd have to spend time thinking about the implications of such changes
[03:02] <cyberix> Please do, that was what I was hoping
[03:02] <cyberix> No more, no less
[03:03] <daf> if you have time, perhaps you would like to write about your idea on the wiki
[03:03] <daf> so that it doesn't get forgotten
[03:04] <SteveA> i think that we will allow people to suggest translations without having logged in
[03:04] <SteveA> that makes a lot of sense, and there's already structures in rosetta for reviewing contributions from outside of a core translation team
[03:05] <cyberix> Is there not already a system to send bugs in without registering anywhere?
[03:05] <daf> not yet, I think
[03:05] <cyberix> Such software tool used in Debian?
[03:05] <daf> I think there was some discussion about it recently
[03:05] <cyberix> report-bug
[03:05] <cyberix> or something like that
[03:06] <daf> reportbug, yes
[03:06] <daf> I think right now it doesn't support Malone
[03:06] <cyberix> Ok
[03:06] <daf> because of the GPG requirement
[03:06] <daf> I think we're planning to remove that requirement soon
[03:06] <cyberix> Well I'm already using my freetime with participating to a million projects, but I'll try to write something about this to the Wiki.
[03:07] <daf> thanks!
[03:07] <SteveA> it is quite common for a bugreport to need further details from the original reporter before the report is a good description of what is wrong
[03:07] <daf> if you like, you could just paste this conversation into a wiki page
[03:07] <SteveA> i would be concerned about anonymous bug reporting
[03:07] <SteveA> that it is more difficult to have a back-and-forwards discussion of the nature of the problem with the reporter
[03:08] <daf> I suspect that the gain in number of bug reports outweighs the increase in useless bug reports
[03:08] <SteveA> hmm
[03:08] <SteveA> with the same number of people dealing with the bug reports...
[03:09] <SteveA> that doesn't sound like a scalable proposition to me
[03:09] <SteveA> there are certain kinds of bug reports this can work with
[03:09] <daf> oh, I've confused myself
[03:09] <SteveA> like a system crash report
[03:09] <SteveA> where you have automatically collected all of the relevant information
[03:09] <daf> we're not planning to make bug reports anonymous
[03:10] <daf> only removing the requirement of having a GPG signature
[03:10] <daf> for filing bugs
[03:10] <daf> I'm not sure if one will still be required to have an account
[03:10] <SteveA> right.  you'll still need to have an email address that launchpad knows about
[03:10] <daf> I'm using Debian as my comparison point
[03:11] <daf> Debbugs has no registration system
[03:11] <daf> bugs are submitted by email
[03:11] <daf> it's possible that someone will submit from a dud address
[03:11] <daf> but in practice it doesn't happen often
[03:12] <SteveA> in the future, we may be able to have an entirely email-based account registration process
[03:12] <SteveA> in addition to the web-and-email system we have now
[03:12] <daf> so we can do the equivalent of redirecting to /+login? :)
[03:12] <SteveA> right
[03:12] <SteveA> i mail in from an unknown address
[03:13] <SteveA> and i get a reply that remembers what i was trying to do, and gets me to make an account
[03:13] <SteveA> or something like that
[03:13] <SteveA> anyway, future feature
[03:13] <SteveA> hello mister elmo
[03:13] <daf> at any rate, I think supporting bug-buddy and/or reportbug in Malone would be very good
[03:14] <daf> or an Ubuntu-specific tool
[03:14] <daf> it would make it much easier for users to report bugs
[03:15] <SteveA> there is another issue here
[03:15] <SteveA> how many bugs are really support issues?
[03:15] <daf> I can imagine that my father wouldn't want to register with Launchpad to tell us that his web browser crashed
[03:15] <daf> that's a good point
[03:15] <SteveA> crash reports are separate
[03:15] <SteveA> because your father probably won't be runningn gdb or anything to help debug it
[03:15] <daf> I can imagine that my father wouldn't want to register with Launchpad to tell us that his web browser is showing everything in blue
[03:15] <SteveA> that'll be a support request
[03:16] <SteveA> there are so many systems involved that if my mother reported such a bug to me
[03:16] <SteveA> (over the phone, on a sunday afternoon...)
[03:16] <daf> you're suggesting that everything should be a support request by default, and that support requests should be turned into bugs as appropriate?
[03:16] <SteveA> then i wouldn't know whether it was a faulty monitor
[03:16] <daf> (by support volunteers/personnel)
[03:16] <SteveA> poorly set-up monitor
[03:17] <SteveA> my mother is wearing blue sunglasses
[03:17] <elmo> SteveA: hia
[03:17] <SteveA> my brother reconfigured the default stylesheet settings
[03:17] <SteveA> or whatever
[03:17] <SteveA> so, it isn't clearly a bug with ubuntu or with a particular application or sourcepackage
[03:17] <daf> Use case: Steve's mother is wearing blue sunglasses.
[03:17] <daf> right
[03:18] <SteveA> you know that "my monitor keeps flickering" complaint, accompanied by crunching of potato crisps
[03:18] <SteveA> so, if we make it very easy for end users of ubuntu to file bugs, they should be support requests initially
[03:18] <daf> agreed
[03:19] <SteveA> and, those who know how to diagnose a problem can get a more advanced direct bug-filing page
[03:19] <daf> should we require them to register to file support requests?
[03:19] <SteveA> we need to be able to have a dialogue
[03:19] <SteveA> so, in some sense, yes
[03:19] <daf> more specifically: should we require them to register, or just ask them for their email address?
[03:19] <SteveA> the challenge is making that process as straightforward as possible
[03:20] <SteveA> if you ask someone for their email address, they may type it in wrongly
[03:20] <SteveA> so, you'd want an automated reply
[03:20] <SteveA> that they in turn reply to
[03:20] <SteveA> oh, wait... that's our email address confirming system in launchpad
[03:20] <SteveA> so, we can improve the usability of that system
[03:20] <SteveA> but i think we still need it
[03:21] <daf> ok
[03:21] <daf> at any rate, a GNOME tool for filing support requests in Launchpad would be marvellous
[03:21] <SteveA> yep
[03:22] <SteveA> daf, matsubara: ping
[03:23] <matsubara> SteveA: pong
[03:23] <daf> pong
[03:23] <SteveA> so, what about bug triage
[03:24] <SteveA> did you two have a discussion about what we need to do with launchpad bugs?
[03:24] <daf> yes
[03:24] <daf> we looked at the bug triage page I put on the wiki
[03:25] <daf> matsubara added a question to it
[03:25] <SteveA> what's the URL?
[03:25] <matsubara> SteveA: I've been triaging, following the guidelines described on the wiki
[03:25] <SteveA> matsubara: how's it been going?
[03:25] <daf> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/LaunchpadBugTriage
[03:27] <SteveA> daf: "we don't agree that this bug describes a problem worth considering".  maybe rephrase that to something like "we don't think this is an issue for launchpad."
[03:27] <SteveA> i don't have a very good suggestion on how to phrase this
[03:27] <matsubara> SteveA: lots of bugs are users requests, is there any problem to change it to wishlist severity without changing the confirmed/unconfirmed status?
[03:28] <SteveA> that's an interesting question
[03:28] <daf> hmm, wishlist bugs are a bit of a special case, I think
[03:29] <SteveA> i think it is okay to have a mixture of "morally confirmed" and "morally unconfirmed" wishlist bugs
[03:29] <SteveA> because a wishlist bug is something we'll convert into a specification if we want to continue with it
[03:29] <SteveA> or at least, notionally convert into a spec.
[03:30] <daf> the difference being that a confirmed wishlist bug is one we've said we're planning to implement?
[03:30] <SteveA> no
[03:30] <SteveA> milestones are for saying about whether we're planning to implement something
[03:30] <SteveA> and i think it's okay to leave a bug with no milestone, and as a wishlist item
[03:30] <SteveA> in that sense, wishlist is almost like a milestone
[03:31] <daf> true
[03:31] <SteveA> because when we choose to do a wishlist bug in say 1.2, then
[03:31] <SteveA> we'll change it from wishlist to something else, in the context of 1.2
[03:32] <bradb> jamesh: Is there a UI for bugwatch searching, other than URL hacking?
[03:33] <SteveA> matsubara: does that answer your question fully?
[03:34] <matsubara> SteveA: and what about pasting the traceback on the bug description?
[03:34] <matsubara> SteveA: yep
[03:34] <SteveA> better to give an OOPS code
[03:34] <SteveA> and we'll add special logic to bug display to make OOPS codes into links, when you're a launchpad developer
[03:35] <daf> oooh
[03:35] <SteveA> this needs an addition to DPoT
[03:35] <matsubara> that would rock!
[03:35] <SteveA> and a config file entry to give the root of OOPSes
[03:35] <daf> file a bug
[03:36] <daf> (shall I?)
[03:36] <SteveA> please do
[03:37] <matsubara> SteveA: what is DPoT?
[03:37] <SteveA> matsubara: DisplayingParagraphsOfText
[03:38] <SteveA> the spec that describes how we display and auto-linkify text in bug reports
[03:38] <SteveA> and in certain other place
[03:38] <SteveA> s
[03:38] <ddaa> thought it was Delicious Pot Tea
[03:39] <SteveA> mmmm, tea
[03:40] <daf> David Pontificating on TLAs
[03:40] <SteveA> daf, matsubara: any other bug triage issues we should talk about?
[03:40] <daf> bug 30645
[03:40] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30645 in launchpad "OOPS codes should be turned into links for Launchpad developers" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30645
[03:41] <daf> not that I can think of
[03:41] <matsubara> SteveA: same with me.
[03:41] <daf> SteveA: ok if I assign this to myself?
[03:43] <SteveA> daf: sure, if you like.  i was thinking of doing it, but i'm very happy for you to do it.
[03:43] <daf> done
[03:44] <SteveA> okay.  matsubara, have there been any interesting wishlist items that you have seen?
[03:44] <SteveA> i think it would be interesting to collect these up, and present them in the weekly launchpad meeting
[03:44] <SteveA> maybe the top 5 bugs and top 3 wishlist items for the week
[03:45] <SteveA> what do you think?
[03:45] <matsubara> SteveA: let me find it, just a moment.
[03:45] <daf> I was thinking of sending a weekly email to the list with stuff like this
[03:45] <daf> we could do it in the meeting
[03:45] <SteveA> daf: that's a good idea
[03:45] <SteveA> email is good
[03:45] <daf> ok
[03:45] <daf> we can aslo list bugs marked In Progress
[03:45] <matsubara> bug 2612
[03:45] <Ubugtu> malone bug 2612 in launchpad "A new page mapping all people from their IRC nicks to real names an vice versa" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/2612
[03:45] <SteveA> send it wednesday night or first thing thursday
[03:46] <SteveA> so that it can be discussed in the meeting
[03:46] <daf> ok
[03:46] <SteveA> and write it down as a standard agenda item "discuss weekly bug summary that was sent by daf this morning" ;-)
[03:46] <daf> :)
[03:46] <matsubara> I changed it to wishlist. that was the bug the caught my attention to this wishlist issue.
[03:46] <SteveA> listing bugs marked in progress is good, because we can check that people really are doing work on them
[03:47] <SteveA> matsubara: that would be an interesting URL redirect thing.  http://launchpad.net/people/+ircnick/Freenode/SteveA
[03:47] <SteveA> redirects to https://launchpad.net/people/stevea
[03:48] <Kinnison> SteveA: and if more than one person claims the same nick on the same network?
[03:48] <SteveA> Kinnison: i think the datamodel forbids that
[03:48] <Kinnison> SteveA: Oh. Otherwise there's always "300 Multiple Choices"
[03:48] <doko> cprov: is there some spec belonging to #3839, what will change?
[03:48] <Kinnison> I.E. HTTP response code 300
[03:49] <SteveA> Kinnison: has anyone every used that status?  except on a t-shirt?
[03:49] <cprov> doko: not yet, I'll discuss it with mpt tonight
[03:50] <Kinnison> SteveA: yes
[03:50] <cprov> doko: I'm just replying you bug comment, don't be worry we will fix that page and add useful info for you all, right ;)
[03:50] <doko> cprov: thanks :)
[03:51] <daf> speaking of T-shirts, one for mpt: http://flickr.com/photos/jayallen/17325716/
[03:52] <Kinnison> heh
[03:55] <SteveA> daf: for "we don't agree that this bug describes a problem worth considering" how about "we will not take further action on this bug" ?
[03:56] <daf> ok
[03:57] <SteveA> it sounds more "objective" to me
[03:57] <SteveA> i think because of the stronger sense of active voice
[03:59] <daf> done
[04:02] <daf> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bugs-advanced?field.searchtext=&field.status%3Alist=Unconfirmed&field.status%3Alist=Needs+Info&field.status%3Alist=Confirmed&field.status%3Alist=In+Progress&field.severity%3Alist=Wishlist
[04:02] <daf> wishlist bugs in LP ^^^
[04:03] <matsubara> stevea, daf: is there anything else? i'm thinking of get some lunch.
[04:05] <SteveA> i think we're in good shape for getting the bugs triaged
[04:05] <SteveA> thanks for bringing those points up
[04:06] <matsubara> SteveA: great.
[04:14] <LarstiQ> ddaa: presuming you're responsible for 'Nearby' on +branches, will it show branches that merge too?
[04:15] <ddaa> mh
[04:16] <ddaa> that would be nice, but there are some implications
[04:16] <ddaa> namely you need to define the branch base so the merges from the parent branches do not introduce noise
[04:16] <daf> spiv, jamesh: did either of you see my mail about select results?
[04:17] <ddaa> LarstiQ: likely, that would be something with a heuristic default based on commiter's name and maybe some way to control it more finely if it's not good enough
[04:18] <ddaa> LarstiQ: I suggest you file wishlist bug about that. That's the sort of stuff we definitely want to support, but I do not see it happening in the next couple of months.
[04:18] <ddaa> First we'd need to actually get all the related uses cases and design something that does not suck.
[04:18] <LarstiQ> it was just something that popped up when I saw this (to me) new Nearby section
[04:19] <daf> salgado-lunch: ping
[04:19] <sebest_> hello, should we manually close bugs that are "dups" ?
[04:19] <ddaa> LarstiQ: mpt invented the "Nearby" section, and apparently wants to make it a recurrent feature of Launchpad. I think that's great.
[04:20] <daf> BjornT, bradb: can you answer sebest_'s question?
[04:20] <ddaa> at the moment all my energy is directed at the bzr transition.
[04:20] <LarstiQ> ddaa: it could be very nice, kinda like how wikipedia makes me squander hours following links
[04:20] <bradb> sebest_: No, don't worry about changing the status of dups. In the future, we'll make them automatically display as status "Duplicate".
[04:20] <ddaa> LarstiQ: I guess you were the kind of kid that used to read dictionnaries :)
[04:21] <LarstiQ> ddaa: hah, how did you know? ;)
[04:21] <daf> bradb: thanks -- is this possibly a FAQ candidate?
[04:21] <sebest_> Bradb: ok, because first i was looking for "duplicate" in the status drop down menu
[04:21] <ddaa> LarstiQ: that's an insight ;)
[04:21] <LarstiQ> ddaa: is there another bzr transition, or is it still going on?
[04:21] <bradb> daf: Probably not. I haven't heard it asked that often.
[04:21] <ddaa> LarstiQ: still going on, got stalled, trying to get it back on track
[04:22] <daf> bradb: ok
[04:22] <sebest_> bradb: i asked seb128, and he wasn't sure either about what to do
[04:22] <LarstiQ> ddaa: anything we can do to make it easier on you?
[04:22] <ddaa> LarstiQ: remove need to sleep, extend duration of days to 48 hours, and provide telepathic links with lifeless, SteveA, jblack and jamesh.
[04:23] <daf> Kinnison: belatedly: scrubs are awesome -- they're the same inside-out
[04:23] <LarstiQ> the only one of those I can safely attempt is the telepathic link
[04:23] <ddaa> I think a second eye-brain-hand complex would come in handy too.
[04:23] <LarstiQ> ddaa: however, timecube.com might help with the 48 hours
[04:24] <bradb> sebest_: See also: bug 3796
[04:24] <Ubugtu> malone bug 3796 in malone "Duplicated bugs still show up as New in a list of bugs (also affects the Latest bugs portlet)" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/3796
[04:24] <bradb> Google++
[04:24] <ddaa> LarstiQ: I need to go write some roadmap. Nice chatting with you.
[04:24] <LarstiQ> ddaa: have fun
[04:25] <sebest_> bradb, and will lanuchpad handle software version?
[04:26] <bradb> sebest_: Not likely in the next few months, but in the next six months, perhaps (hopefully?)
[04:26] <bradb> Though it is oft requested.
[04:26] <sebest_> bradb it would allow  closing bugs semi automatically
[04:27] <sebest_> eg if i maintain a package upstream, and say the bug fix is available in version 1.2 (while ubuntu is shipping 1.1), the bug would be automatically closed when ubuntu ship 1.2
[04:29] <bradb> sebest_: Interesting idea. Does closing via the Changelog apply in that case?
[04:30] <Kinnison> daf: aye
[04:31] <sebest_> bradb: yes, i think it would help us clearing bugs that are no more revelant.
[04:31] <sebest_> linking package changelog and launchpad may be an interesting idea, to ease bug triaging
[04:32] <sivang> sebest_: isn't that how debian bts works?
[04:33] <sebest_> sivang: i don't know
[04:34] <sebest_> the idea is also to automatically know if the bug is revelant for a particular ubuntu release
[04:35] <sebest_> for this we only need to know the package version number that closed the bug
[04:36] <sebest_> for example: bug 29826
[04:36] <Ubugtu> malone bug 29826 in avahi "package avahi-daemon should depend on dbus-1-utils" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/29826
[04:36] <sebest_> this bug is marked fixed, but the fix is only available in dapper
[04:37] <sebest_> and the user that may have the bug, may be using breezy (so for him, no solution is available, maybe)
[04:37] <daf> yes, I've heard people complain that it's difficult to know which version of a package a bug was fixed in
[04:38] <sebest_> daf: yes
[04:38] <daf> I think they've been spoiled by debbugs' shiny version tracking stuff
[04:39] <bradb> sebest_: I suggested not long ago having metadata on the "Fixed" status, so that you could say "Fixed" -> in version $foo (instead of the "Fix Committed"/"Fix Released" thing.) Does that sound like the right idea?
[04:40] <sebest_> bradb: imo, yes
[04:40] <sebest_> bradb: it seems that the "milestone" thing could be used for this purpose
[04:40] <bradb> milestones are distinct from versions.
[04:41] <sebest_> eg if the bug is not critical: breezy -> won't fix , dapper -> fixed
[04:41] <daf> Launchpad knows everything it needs to know to do this properly
[04:41] <bradb> Milestones are a bullseye, versions are a specific release of a bundle of code.
[04:41] <sebest_> bradb: you are right
[04:41] <daf> which version the bug is fixed in
[04:41] <daf> which versions of the package are in which releases
[04:41] <daf> it can work out which releases it's fixed/unfixed in
[04:42] <sebest_> daf: yes, and upon package availability in the repository, the bug could be closed
[04:42] <daf> of course, most bugs filed for breezy after the breezy release will never be fixed in breezy
[04:43] <daf> such bugs should be marked Rejected
[04:43] <sebest_> or a reminder mail could be send to the person related to this specific bug
[04:43] <LarstiQ> daf: not moved to dapper?
[04:43] <sebest_> daf: except critical bugs that will be fixed
[04:43] <daf> LarstiQ: good point
[04:44] <sebest_> LarstiQ, in fact that the main issue, we have to review each bug to see if they are still revelant in dapper
[04:44] <daf> LarstiQ: but if a bug has a task for both breezy and dapper, the breezy one is not going to get fixed
[04:44] <sebest_> if we could say the bug  is fixed in upstrem version x.y.z 
[04:44] <LarstiQ> daf: agreed
[04:44] <Kinnison> I wonder when Dino Solon is gonna stop reporting the same bug over and over
[04:44] <sebest_> we would know as you as version x.y.z hits the dapper repository that we can close this bug
[04:45] <LarstiQ> Kinnison: 'the number of bugs is increasing'?
[04:45] <Kinnison> LarstiQ: not entirely sure yet
[04:45] <Kinnison> daf: Do we auto-file bugs for OOPSen?
[04:45] <daf> Kinnison: no
[04:46] <LarstiQ> sebest_: it sounds good, but it moves the burden to getting information from upstream about fixes?
[04:46] <Kinnison> daf: Yeesh
[04:46] <daf> or we'd have 3,500 new bugs every day
[04:46] <daf> yeah
[04:46] <SteveA> Kinnison: we get a weekly report, and then the analysis of that leads to bugs being filed.
[04:46] <Kinnison> we need the equiv of gFuckheads for malone
[04:46] <daf> Kinnison: I think he thinks he's being helpful
[04:46] <sebest_> LarstiQ, we can check in upstream changelog , or in upstream bugtracker if the bug is closed or not
[04:47] <LarstiQ> sebest_: that doesn't sound easy to me at all, but I'll quit worrying about it :)
[04:48] <bradb> sebest_: Et voila: https://launchpad.net/products/malone/+bug/30658
[04:48] <SteveA> daf: i wonder about having a text area on an oops page where the user is invited to describe what they were doing when the oops occurred.  this would be appended to the oops report somehow.
[04:48] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30658 in malone "sebest_ suggested tracking package versions in which a bug was fixed" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[04:48] <sebest_> bradb: thanx :)
[04:48] <daf> SteveA: or post to the +filebug page?
[04:48] <bradb> sebest_: no prob
[04:48] <SteveA> daf: well... we don't want lots of duplicates
[04:49] <daf> SteveA: well, it seems at least one person seems to think he should file a bug for every OOPS he gets
[04:49] <SteveA> people ought to look for existing bugs before filing a new one, or else it creates more bugs to be triaged
[04:49] <SteveA> daf: can you point me to one of the bugs this person has filed?
[04:50] <SteveA> daf: i'll see if i can get in contact, and help him or her to make more productive use of their tiem
[04:50] <daf> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/30656
[04:50] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30656 in launchpad "ERROR IN: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/vlc/+pots/vlc/tl/+translate" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[04:51] <elmo> ddaa: marambio is running low on disk
[04:51] <ddaa> oh shit...
[04:52] <ddaa> elmo: tell me you can magically expand its hard drive, please
[04:52] <ddaa> it's only on revision 9242/15993 of gimp's baz2bzr...
[04:53] <ogra> how long should it take for an upload to show up on the launchpad page of the source package ? 
[04:53] <ddaa> elmo: thanks for telling me, I'll try to make some room
[04:54] <elmo> ddaa: if it's life threateningly urgent, I can try adding a second drive, but I'm not sure how hot-plug capable this card is with Linux
[04:55] <ddaa> I'll cry out if it turns out to be unsolvable.
[04:55] <ddaa> But this conversion has been running (again) for one week
[04:55] <ddaa> more than that, actually. And it's the second time, since the previous run was interrupted by a reboot after > one week runtime.
[04:56] <ddaa> duh...
[04:57] <ddaa> .bzr.log grew to 14GB...
[04:57] <ddaa> how insane is that?
[04:57] <ddaa> and .bzr.log.old is a mere 9.7 GB
[04:58] <LarstiQ> it does log quite a bit
[05:23] <salgado> daf, pong
[05:24] <daf> salgado: I sent a mail about SQLObject to jamesh and spiv last week, but neither of them replied -- I'll forward it to you
[05:25] <SteveA> daf: send it to the list
[05:25] <SteveA> as kiko keeps saying
[05:25] <daf> ok
[05:25] <SteveA> avoid just sending to a subset of people, unless you have a REALLY good reason to
[05:26] <SteveA> so, i just cc-ed you when i mailed to the guy who was filing lots of bugs, because i didn't want to make him or her feel uncomfortable
[05:26] <SteveA> but in general, use the lists
[05:26] <SteveA> as a fascist manager type, i particularly like you to use the lists so i can see what's going on
[05:27] <iwj> Kinnison said I should ask this here:
[05:27] <iwj> What Malone status should I give a bug when I want to get it off our todo list because I think the issue should be handled upstream ?  Bugzilla had NOTFORUS or whatever it was called.
[05:27] <SteveA> well
[05:27] <SteveA> a bug in malone has multiple statuses
[05:27] <SteveA> and is present in multiple contexts
[05:27] <LarstiQ> close it downstream, leave open upstream?
[05:27] <bradb> iwj: There isn't one: bug 6572
[05:27] <Ubugtu> malone bug 6572 in malone "In distribution bug searches, it should be possible to filter out bugs with upstream tasks" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6572
[05:28] <SteveA> so, you can file the bug on the upstream distro or product
[05:28] <SteveA> maybe add a bugwatch, if it is an upstream bug we can watch
[05:28] <iwj> But I don't want to file an upstream bug.  I want the original submitter to do the work of interacting with upstream.
[05:29] <iwj> For example, I don't want to myself search the upstream bug system to see if the bug is already reported (which in this particular case seems quite likely).
[05:29] <SteveA> sounds like "rejected" to me, then
[05:29] <bradb> iwj: Maybe this could be a use case for keywords?
[05:29] <SteveA> and, "rejected" is being renamed in malone i think
[05:29] <SteveA> to "not for us" or something like that
[05:30] <bradb> "Rejected" is always a slap in the face, so renaming it would be nice.
[05:30] <iwj> Sometimes `rejected' means `this isn't a bug' and sometimes it means `this isn't something I'm going to work on'.
[05:30] <SteveA> because the bug could be fixed in some other context
[05:30] <SteveA> "this isn't a bug" can also depend on context and scope
[05:30] <ogra> but please not to "not for us" these are different statuses
[05:31] <daf> salgado: ok, posted it to the list -- perhaps you can take a look for me
[05:31] <iwj> And the fairly mild slap in the face seems appropriate sometimes, depending on what the original report was.  Criticism can be part of education.  Obviously you don't just set the bug to rejected; you explain what the problem is, too.
[05:31] <salgado> daf, sure, I'll take a look in a few minutes
[05:31] <SteveA> iwj: i'd like you to raise the issue of the kind of "it is upstream's problem" workflow you need on the launchpad-users list
[05:31] <iwj> OK.
[05:31] <daf> SteveA: we were going to look at bugs
[05:31] <SteveA> daf: indeed
[05:31] <SteveA> i'm ready
[05:32] <SteveA> thanks iwj 
[05:32] <iwj> In the meantime I'll use `rejected'.
[05:32] <daf> SteveA: I'll get a mug of tea, then I'll be ready
[05:32] <SteveA> kiko_: !!!
[05:33] <kiko_> yes yes
[05:33] <kiko_> how is everybody
[05:33] <Kinnison> yo kiko
[05:33] <kiko_> hey Kinnison dude
[05:33] <SteveA> how was the trip, kiko_ ?
[05:33] <Kinnison> kiko_: it's all good
[05:33] <LarstiQ> is there ever going to be 'online' launchpad documentation?
[05:33] <kiko_> LarstiQ, maybe.
[05:33] <kiko_> SteveA, it was excellent -- business class saves the day!
[05:33] <LarstiQ> kiko_: the faq is a little lean
[05:33] <kiko_> I was so knackered
[05:33] <kiko_> LarstiQ, will work on it this week.
[05:33] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad/: [r=SteveA]  bug text pages simplification (r3090)
[05:34] <LarstiQ> kiko_: wee :)
[05:34] <kiko_> Kinnison, how was the dinner? did Znarl  actually go?
[05:34] <Kinnison> kiko_: good, and yes
[05:34] <Kinnison> kiko_: of course, I was half asleep for the entire thing
[05:34] <SteveA> kiko_: iwj just had an interesting question about how to deal with "not for us" kind of bugs in malone.  he'll be mailing launchpad-users about it, as it's a larger discussion than we can have randomly on irc.
[05:34] <kiko_> dude I fell asleep everywhere that day
[05:34] <kiko_> on the tube
[05:35] <kiko_> in a shop 
[05:35] <kiko_> at the hotel
[05:35] <Kinnison> hehe
[05:35] <kiko_> in the train to heathrow
[05:35] <Kinnison> I just about managed to stay awake until I was on the train to ely
[05:35] <Kinnison> then I fell asleep
[05:37] <kiko_> wherever did that last merge that SteveA r=d
[05:37] <kiko_> did an empty merge
[05:37] <kiko_> so wake up
[05:37] <kiko_> SteveA, do you know if we have a production roll out scheduled?
[05:37] <Kinnison> We have a rollout scheduled for 0930 UTC tomorrow
[05:37] <daf> kiko_: it's because I'm used to push-on-commit with baz
[05:38] <Kinnison> daf: I have push as part of my pqm merge script
[05:38] <kiko_> daf, well, alias bzr-submit='bzr push; bzr-submit $*' ?
[05:39] <SteveA> kiko_: can't remember.  daf, do you have the summary for last week's meeting?
[05:39] <SteveA> daf, kiko_: check the RocketFuelSetup docs.  we want to make sure we're rsyncing.
[05:39] <daf> I haven't done it yet
[05:42] <sivang> daf: anything I might be able to help with?
[05:42] <sivang> (re: RFS docs))
[05:42] <sivang> (I arleady worked with jblack on them during the weekend ;-)
[05:44] <daf> sivang: I want to make sure that I have an up to date copy on chinstrap before I submit a merge
[05:44] <LarstiQ> kiko, daf: that could also be done as a bzr plugin so it isn't shell dependant
[05:45] <daf> I suspect it wouldn't need any code to be written
[05:45] <daf> post_commit=bzrlib.commands.push or something
[05:46] <daf> hmm, but I'd need to add that to each new branch
[05:46] <LarstiQ> daf: doesn't it work under [DEFAULT] ?
[05:46] <daf> it would
[05:47] <daf> but not all of my branches are launchpda :)
[05:47] <LarstiQ> extra motivation to get the new globbing in ;)
[05:47] <daf> :)
[05:48] <kiko_> I need to be out for an hour
[05:48] <kiko_> carlos, how are you doing today?
[05:49] <daf> SteveA: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/DevelopmentMeeting20060202 -- first draft
[05:49] <kiko_> anyone need anything urgent from me?
[05:50] <daf> SteveA: ready for a phone call
[05:50] <kiko-afk> I didn't think so :)
[05:52] <SteveA> daf: yes
[05:53] <carlos> kiko-afk: fine thanks, Fixing some permissions problems for Jordi
[05:54] <kiko-afk> carlos, cool. are you okay with not being in launchpad admins still?
[05:54] <carlos> SteveA: The problem with the permissions is just that I left out admins and rosetta experts for the removal case
[05:54] <carlos> kiko-afk: yeah I don't think it's a big deal as long as someone else can do any urgent fix while we fix the permissions
[05:55] <carlos> we don't have many requests every week so it's not an issue
[05:55] <SteveA> carlos: okay.  i'll be fixing the admins case as a general thing with a small refactoring soon.
[05:55] <carlos> SteveA: so It's a really easy fix
[05:55] <SteveA> great
[05:55] <carlos> SteveA: ok
[05:55] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad/: [trivial]  Fix https://launchpad.net/bugs/29181 (Can't change Initial (r3091: Brad Bollenbach)
[05:56] <kiko-afk> can't change initial?
[05:56] <Kinnison> wrapped line
[05:56] <Kinnison> message:
[05:56] <Kinnison>   [trivial]  Fix https://launchpad.net/bugs/29181 (Can't change Initial
[05:56] <Kinnison>    Bug Contact for product/ubuntu-doc)
[05:56] <Ubugtu> malone bug 29181 in malone "Can't change Initial Bug Contact for product/ubuntu-doc" [Major,In progress]  
[05:57] <daf> SteveA: "implied: Reason Unknown"
[05:59] <SteveA> i restarted
[05:59] <SteveA> tried to call you
[05:59] <SteveA> same problem
[06:00] <elmo> Kinnison: how long is the downtime ETA for tomorrow?
[06:00] <Kinnison> elmo: We're not sure yet
[06:01] <Kinnison> elmo: it mostly depends on the librarian downtime
[06:01] <kiko-afk> it shouldn't be too long if it's just a rollout. perhaps 20 minutes.
[06:01] <SteveA> i think a standard roll-out, is 10-20 mins nowadays.
[06:01] <Kinnison> elmo: I'll need to be able to stop the buildd sequencer
[06:01] <SteveA> rollouts are often non-standard
[06:01] <Kinnison> elmo: everything else I can do
[06:04] <daf> kiko-afk: did you fix SIP yet?
[06:04] <kiko-afk> daf, matsubara can use my laptop, so kinda yes
[06:20] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad/: [r=SteveA]  bug text pages simplification (r3092: Dafydd Harries)
[06:32] <iwj> So, Malone is this marvellous cross-thingum tracker.  How can I record that https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325884 is my report upstream of https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/26436 ?
[06:32] <Ubugtu> malone bug 26436 in firefox "gtkmozembed crashs with python" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[06:33] <SteveA> iwj: you can add a bugwatch.
[06:33] <iwj> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceUserDoc doesn't seem to describe a way to do it.
[06:33] <SteveA> bugwatches don't work exactly the way we want them to right now
[06:33] <SteveA> i don't think you can do it by email.  BjornT ?
[06:33] <SteveA> BjornT is working on the new bugwatch stuff.
[06:33] <iwj> So perhaps I would be better just writing a comment to that effect ?
[06:34] <SteveA> can you add a watch using the web interface?
[06:34] <SteveA> and I'll ask BjornT if the new watch stuff includes being able to add a watch by email
[06:34] <daf> kiko-afk: sounds better than nothing
[06:35] <BjornT> SteveA, iwj: no, you can't add watches by email atm, but it should be possible in the future.
[06:36] <daf> SteveA: bug 30670
[06:36] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30670 in launchpad "Launchpad developers should have admin privileges on staging" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30670
[06:37] <SteveA> thanks daf
[06:42] <iwj> By `add a watch' do you mean `link to other bug tracker' in the RHS portlet ?
[06:42] <BjornT> iwj: yes
[08:41] <bradb> Damn, it seems difficult to say to a bug reporter that their suggestion wreaks of featuritis.
[08:42] <ogra> "this seems like a nice feature we might implement if nothing else is left to do" ;)
[08:42] <bradb> heh
[08:45] <kiko> dale carnegie's mischeif
[08:45] <kiko> mischief even
[08:45] <ddaa> Depending on the inclination, the reply can be any variant of "that is an interesting suggestion, bu the current priorities of the project do not allow me to give it all the interest it deserves"
[08:46] <kiko> bradb, also, isn't it reeks?
[08:46] <ddaa> another useful technique is pointing out non-obvious complexities and asking for a more accurate specification, including use cases
[08:46] <bradb> I guess it is.
[08:47] <bradb> kiko: Dale would have told you not to correct me there :P
[08:47] <kiko> I am your true friend
[08:47] <ddaa> Eventually, if the user can point out a simple way to implement it and reasonable use cases, there's no reason not to do it except "sorry I do not not have the time to implement it at the moment"
[08:48] <ddaa> The sad thing is that this is has been my reply for about any suggestion whatsoever in the past six months.
[08:48] <bradb> There, I think I said it without coming across harshly.
[08:49] <bradb> ddaa: That's some serious human relations fu!
[08:49] <bradb> "current priorities of the proZZzzZZZzzZz..."
[08:50] <ddaa> I'm not sure if I should be offended or find that funny.
[08:51] <ddaa> Both, I guess.
[08:51] <bradb> I was fairly serious actually. You're good with English.
[08:52] <bradb> J'aimerais tre de mme en franais, par exemple.
[08:52] <ddaa> Haha, you are trying to coax me through flattery!
[08:52] <ddaa> Won't work!
[08:52] <bradb> heh
[08:53] <ddaa> bradb: just read and write french all day, read books in french, watch movies in french, and you'll be just as good in no time. Like 4 or 5 years.
[08:53] <bradb> msant
[08:54] <ddaa> that's very idiomatic :)
[08:54] <bradb> I just broke up with ma blonde though, so I have slightly less full-time practice.
[08:55] <ddaa> maybe you'd want to adopt my polish, she's got a better french than many of my compatriotes.
[08:55] <bradb> language++
[08:56] <ddaa> well, I might also point out that I'm the better french :)
[08:57] <bradb> :P
[08:58] <ddaa> fini de rigoler, y'a du pain sur la planche
[08:59] <ddaa> damn, working on the importd->bzr stuff just makes me sick, always
[09:03] <bradb> mdz: Do you still get timeouts searching Ubuntu bugs? (bug 28773)
[09:05] <mdz> bradb: I haven't searched for any bugs yet this morning
[09:05] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad/: [trivial]  Admin pages for builders (r3093: Celso Providelo)
[09:05] <mdz> bradb: I managed to load /distros/ubuntu/+bugs without a timeout just now; that wasn't possible before
[09:05] <mdz> oh, I'm not logged in
[09:06] <mdz> bradb: /distros/ubuntu/+bugs loaded for me after login too; took a very long time but no timeout
[09:07] <mdz> bradb: just did a search with no timeout also
[09:07] <mdz> though it wasn't 100% reproducible like the /+bugs one
[09:10] <bradb> Okay, since it seems irreproducible now, I close it.
[09:12] <kiko> bradb, I think salgado's vocabs changes will nail the remaining issues
[09:13] <bradb> great
[09:55] <dilys> Merge to devel/launchpad/: Fix https://launchpad.net/products/malone/+bug/933 (Uppercase in bugtracker name causes System Error (IntegrityError)). r=salgado (r3094: Diogo Matsubara, Guilherme Salgado)
[09:56] <kiko> rock and roll matsubara 
[09:58] <matsubara> :)
[10:44] <zyga> hello
[10:44] <zyga> what is the estimated dapper translations open day?
[10:44] <zyga> I need this to reply to the translators mailing list