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[12:32] <dholbach> whiprush: thanks for fridge-ing
[12:35] <jsgotangco> mr. fridge!
[12:50] <jsgotangco> lol my interfaces switched names
[12:51] <jdub> roflcopter
[12:51] <jsgotangco> wonder why it did that
[12:51] <jsgotangco> (after an update)
[12:51] <Seveas> just to piss you off ;)
[12:51] <jsgotangco> lol
[12:52] <jsgotangco> at 8am? yeah it was successful
[12:52] <Seveas> it's keybuks way to say PNAH! ;)
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[01:22] <Seveas> jsgotangco, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-February/006062.html
[01:27] <jsgotangco> "nclude support for renaming of network interfaces."
[01:27] <Burgwork> jsgotangco, append to that "at random, just for fun"
[01:28] <jsgotangco> it sure did  start my day with a WTF
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[01:33] <Seveas> the other part of that one may just have silved the bug I had today trying to install it on a vmware guest
[01:33] <Seveas> so I'm waiting for the daily install cd to pop up :)
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[02:55] <squinn> Question. I'm a regular user, but I think y'all will know this better than those over in #ubuntu.
[02:56] <squinn> I recently went back to Ubuntu. Today, actually. In the process of not having Ubuntu, my email was hacked and the password was changed. So I created a new Launchpad account, but it won't let me edit the Wiki to redo my bio.
[02:56] <squinn> Anyone know why?
[02:58] <raphink> squinn: why not ask in #launchpad rather?
[02:59] <squinn> Didn't know it existed. Thank you.
[02:59] <raphink> :)
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[03:08] <Mez|ZzZ> mdz ping
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[03:12] <jelkner> can i ask a question here about setting up zope3 instances for developement in a user's home directory?
[03:13] <jelkner> i tried asking on #ubuntu, but that is a useless channel
[03:15] <Mez> anyone from core-dev here?
[03:15] <Mez> I need to ask a question
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[03:15] <Mez> and would appreciate some input from a more experienced dev
[03:16] <raphink> jelkner: do you think anyone wants to answer people who are as friendly as ` i tried asking on #ubuntu, but that is a useless channel` ?
[03:17] <raphink> jelkner: please be respectful to _volunteers_ who give their time on #ubuntu to answer your questions
[03:17] <jelkner> raphink: my apologies, but it is
[03:17] <raphink> jelkner: for many things it is not
[03:17] <raphink> but #ubuntu is not a paid hotline
[03:18] <jelkner> raphink: i'm not in any way disparaging the volunteers, who have my utmost respect
[03:18] <raphink> and is to be treated as what it is : a communauty help channel
[03:18] <raphink> s/communauty/community/
[03:18] <raphink> ok
[03:18] <jelkner> but in all honesty, the system is overloaded and not very effective
[03:18] <jelkner> there were 600+ people there
[03:18] <raphink> there are lots of other specialized channels
[03:18] <raphink> for specialized questions
[03:18] <jelkner> *a lot* of noise
[03:18] <raphink> yes I know jelkner 
[03:19] <raphink> ;)
[03:19] <jelkner> and very difficult to get help
[03:19] <raphink> jelkner: I often talk to people in pv to solve hard pbs
[03:19] <raphink> ;)
[03:19] <jelkner> so forgive me for expressing my frustration
[03:19] <raphink> because #ubuntu is too hard to read
[03:19] <jelkner> but i'm trying to be an effective volunteer myself, and i can't get the info i seek
[03:20] <raphink> jelkner: iirc ajmitch is our zope specialist here
[03:20] <raphink> :)
[03:20] <raphink> ping him
[03:20] <infinity> Mez: Fire away.
[03:21] <jelkner> ajmitch: would you be so kind as to answer a zope3 question for me?
[03:21] <Mez> ah :D lol - I just msgd you
[03:21] <Mez> infinity: at the moment - scim in breezy is tragically broken.
[03:21] <Mez> a lot of people are requesting a backport.
[03:21] <Mez> now - usually this wouldnt be possible - due to C++ ABI transitions
[03:22] <jelkner> raphink: i'm thinking of filing a bug report, which might be the simplest way to address this problem?
[03:22] <Mez> however-  from recent work on the KDE backports - we've worked out a way to replace the control file for breezy
[03:22] <Mez> so - it would be possible to backport scim and make a lot of people happy
[03:22] <raphink> jelkner: might help
[03:22] <Mez> however - this would mean causing a delta between ubuntu and debian solely for backporting this package
[03:23] <Mez> should I go ahead and make the changes and request a backport? or is creating the delta not worth it
[03:23] <jelkner> raphink: are all bugs in malone these days?
[03:23] <infinity> Mez: I don't like the sounds of that.  Can we not find out WHY it's "tragically broken" in breezy and fix it?
[03:23] <raphink> jelkner: iirc yes
[03:23] <raphink> hmm celestia crashes with nvidia card here :s
[03:23] <Mez> infinity, apparently it's just an old buggy version.
[03:23] <raphink> very badly
[03:24] <Mez> since then theres been a lot of work on scim because they've had data to work from etc etc.
[03:24] <infinity> Mez: Not to mention that rewriting control during build is hopelessly sketchy.
[03:24] <Mez> infinity, true - but not that hard to do - it's working for KDE backports
[03:25] <Mez> (depend on base-files - check lsb_release for version - and then replace control file as neccessary)
[03:25] <Mez> It's really only to replace the package name changes for the c++ ABI transition
[03:25] <infinity> Oh, I know HOW to do it.  That doesn't make it any less wrong.
[03:26] <jelkner> raphink: what does iirc mean?
[03:26] <Mez> infinity, I know it's wrong... 
[03:26] <raphink> jelkner: if I remember well
[03:26] <Mez> infinity, but well - we're not allowed to do manual backports
[03:26] <jelkner> thanks!
[03:26] <Mez> hmm
[03:26] <Mez> unless I can convince mdz to let me build a package for -updates
[03:27] <infinity> Well, can we get a handle on what "tragically broken" means?
[03:27] <Mez> one sec
[03:27] <Mez> lemme get a user who can explain
[03:28] <Mez> freeflying - care to explain ?
[03:29] <freeflying> Mez: I don't think scim broken in breezy at all 
[03:29] <Mez> o_O
[03:29] <Mez> going completely against what I've been told by lots of other people :D
[03:29] <freeflying> Mez: as u know the changes in dapper is just the renanme of binary package 
[03:30] <Mez> freeflying, yes - but from what I've heard - the breezy version of scim crashes nearly all the time
[03:30] <freeflying> and we have test that scim-1.4.2 can works fine in breezy 
[03:31] <Mez> freeflying, I'm on about whats wrong with the version currently in breezy
[03:31] <Mez> not the one in dapper
[03:31] <freeflying> Mez: the changelog of scim-1.4.4 have pointed that up-to-date release havs fixed some bugs 
[03:32] <Mez> infinity from what I can gather - it causes problems with firefox and a few other packages
[03:32] <freeflying> Mez: sure 
[03:33] <freeflying> Mez: like acobat , realplay using libstdc++5
[03:33] <Mez> what other problems does it cause?
[03:34] <freeflying> Mez: and the version is too out-of-date in breezy 
[03:34] <infinity> freeflying: Out of date versions aren't really a concern, I want concrete bugs.
[03:34] <Mez> what do you mean by "too out of date"
[03:34] <infinity> So far, I see this one: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scim/+bug/2565
[03:35] <Ubugtu> malone bug 2565 in scim "[Breezy Colony 5] scim refuses to start, scim-setup segfaults" [Critical,Needs info]  
[03:35] <freeflying> scim in breezy is 1.0.2 , and upstream release now is 1.4.4
[03:35] <infinity> And if I had to guess, I'd bet that could be fixed with some reasonably small updates.
[03:35] <infinity> But... <shrug>
[03:36] <infinity> Mez: If you want to do the control hack and request a backport, go ahead.  I won't stop you.
[03:36] <infinity> Mez: It seems easier at this point to do that than to do a proper bugfix upload to -updates.
[03:36] <Mez> infinity, I'd rather you said that you'd approve :D
[03:36] <Mez> infinity - or a "backport" to -updates
[03:36] <Mez> lol
[03:36] <Amaranth> infinity: _anything_ is better than "doesn't work at all and makes all my apps die"
[03:37] <infinity> Mez: A "backport" to -updates is out of the question.
[03:37] <Mez> infinity, i can understand that
[03:37] <infinity> Amaranth: It works for some input methods, and some others break.  That's not "broken for everyone, OMG, update it now!"
[03:41] <mdz> Mez: ?
[03:41] <Mez> mdz: was pretty much the above that was just discussed with infinity - though I'd like your opinion on it too
[03:42] <mdz> what's your question?
[03:42] <Mez> (control hack for scim to make it backportable so people with scim problems (seems to be a lot)) have a working version of scim
[03:42] <mdz> do you have a diff for review?
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[03:42] <Mez> mdz: I will in a few moments
[03:42] <mdz> ok, mail it to me and I'll have a look
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=== infinity -> lunch.
[03:44] <wasabi> During the last update... something changed...
[03:44] <wasabi> that caused kicker to start when I logged into gnome.
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[03:44] <nekohayo> I'd like to know, there is an "espresso" package in the repositories and an "ubuntu-express".. which one is the "good" one?
[03:44] <nekohayo> was ubuntu express renamed to espresso?
[03:45] <Mez> mdz: debdiff or just package?
[03:46] <mdz> debdiff please
[03:47] <Mez> no probs
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[03:49] <Mez> emailing to mdz@ubuntu.com
[03:52] <Mez> mdz: winging it's way to you now
[03:54] <mdz> infinity: how did the security builds go?   everything running smoothly now?
[03:56] <mdz> Mez: it would be simpler to leave the control file alone on dapper, and only overwrite it for breezy
[03:56] <mdz> I assume control-dapper is identical to the current control
[03:56] <Mez> yes
[03:56] <mdz> and use lsb_release -c rather than grepping /etc/lsb_release
[03:58] <infinity> mdz: Ish.  Still need some work on drescher to process the uploads, but they're getting that far now..
[03:58] <infinity> mdz: Mail has been sent to the LP folk responsible.
[03:58] <Mez> mdz:         cp debian/control-dapper debian/control
[03:58] <Mez>         -grep -q breezy /etc/lsb-release && cp debian/control-breezy debian/control
[03:58] <Mez> grr
[03:59] <Mez> damn klipper
[03:59] <Mez> lsb_release -c | cut -f 2 | grep dapper && cp debian/control-breezy debian/control
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[03:59] <infinity> Mez: lsb_release -c -s
[03:59] <infinity> Mez: No need to cut.
[04:00] <Mez> ah :D just grep then :D
[04:00] <Mez> cheers
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[04:01] <infinity> Mez: [ `lsb_release -c -s` = "breezy" ]  && cp ...
[04:01] <infinity> Mez: That seems more readable.
[04:01] <Mez> mdz: with those changes am i fine to upload ?
[04:01] <Mez> infinity - cheers
[04:01] <mdz> Mez: yep
[04:01] <Mez> cool :d nice to hear
[04:02] <Mez> and finaly we'll be able to backport it
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[04:02] <Mez> minghua will be happy
[04:02] <jsgotangco> yay
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[04:02] <atie> jsgotangco, I'm here.
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[04:04] <freeflying> atie: hi
[04:04] <jsgotangco> Mez, atie can also help you
[04:04] <jsgotangco> (Korean Team)
[04:05] <atie> freeflying, hi.
[04:05] <Mez> lol - well it seems to be approved anyways :D
=== Mez just checks it builds properl
[04:05] <Mez> y
[04:06] <Mez> elmo: would it be possible to set the Changed-By in backports to the backports mailing list - this means we'll get katie (soyuz) output to the list when things are built - which'd be nice
[04:07] <atie> freeflying, I asked Riddell about two skim icons - one for user and another for sudo(or kdesu), but he pointed you. Can for sudo one be hided from panel?
[04:09] <freeflying> atie: I haven't found anyway for that 
[04:11] <Mez> freeflying, surely they're just .desktop files?
[04:12] <freeflying> Mez: atie mean two icons in system tray 
[04:12] <Mez> oh
[04:12] <Mez> kk
[04:13] <atie> Mez, two scim processes are running while sudo executed. 
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[04:21] <freeflying> atie: if you set XMODIFIERES=@im=XIM,  there will be only one icon in system tray  , :)
[04:23] <atie> freeflying, that's true since if I use other XIMs I don't have that problem. But, xim brings a crash at logout.
[04:24] <Mez> freeflying, your package has no debian/compat
[04:24] <freeflying> Mez: shall I add it or feedback to maintainer?
[04:24] <Mez> ah
[04:24] <Mez> nvm
[04:25] <Mez> export DH_COMPAT=4
[04:25] <Mez> strange way to do it
[04:25] <freeflying> Mez: that was added by Riddell 
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[04:26] <freeflying> atie: I don't if this phenomenon take place in other distro scuh as suse or mdk
[04:27] <atie> freeflying, two icons? or crash with xim?
[04:27] <freeflying> atie: two icons
[04:28] <Mez> freeflying, uploaded
[04:29] <freeflying> Mez: thx
[04:30] <Mez> oh
[04:30] <Mez> crap
[04:30] <Mez> it's in main
[04:30] <Mez> whoops :D
[04:30] <Mez> you'll have to get riddell to upload
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[04:34] <freeflying> Mez: as for the package , no problems ?
[04:34] <Mez> nope
[04:35] <Mez> not that I've potted anyway
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[06:18] <LaserJock> is it ok for people who aren't core-devs to close main bugs in Malone?
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[06:24] <crimsun> I don't see any reason against it as long as a legitimate status note is attached
[06:24] <sls> hey -- check this out!!!! novell gpled their 3d UI suff... 
[06:24] <sls> http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=13617
[06:25] <sls> great for dapper ey???
[06:25] <LaserJock> crimsun: Malone bug 28197 should be closed I think, what do you think?
[06:25] <Ubugtu> malone bug 28197 in xmltex "xmltex: new changes from Debian require merging" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/28197
[06:27] <crimsun> LaserJock: looks legitimately closeable according to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-January/005617.html
[06:28] <LaserJock> crimsun: ok, I'll close it with an approriate note
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[06:50] <uenyioha> hi guys 
[06:51] <uenyioha> has anyone ever had a problem with the recvfrom function call ? 
[06:52] <uenyioha> it doesn't seem to be populating the client address struct on my ubtuntu server
[06:52] <fabbione> morning guys
[06:52] <uenyioha> i tried it on another distro and it works there w/o issue
[06:53] <jsgotangco> morning fabbione 
[06:55] <uenyioha> wondering if anyone had experience with this...
[06:56] <fabbione> uenyioha: nope. if something like that was broken, nothing would probably work
[06:57] <uenyioha> fabbione: then how come it compiles on another box and works without issue? 
[06:58] <fabbione> are you using the same gcc, glibc and kernel-headers?
[06:58] <uenyioha> fabbione: im surprised
[06:59] <fabbione> are you sure your code is correct? usually these kind of synptoms can show up when the code is almost clean, but not enough
[06:59] <fabbione> and gcc4 complains more than gcc3
[06:59] <fabbione> uenyioha: check with gdb what is going on
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[07:00] <uenyioha> fabbione: will do but as far as i can tell i am...
[07:01] <uenyioha> fabbione: get back to you in a bit
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[07:22] <sanool> hi freeflying we have receive the kubuntu cds that you provided
[07:23] <JaneW> not exactly what I said.... but http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,108532,00.html
[07:23] <sanool> look kubuntu is here.http://bbs.lupaworld.com/htm_data/65/0602/15739.html
[07:24] <jsgotangco> JaneW, if it gets published, i hope to get your authograph someday
[07:25] <JaneW> jsgotangco: hah!
[07:26] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: and you don't want her autograph if it's not published?
[07:26] <JaneW> ajmitch: evidently :/
[07:26] <jsgotangco> let me rephrase that
=== jsgotangco fan of JaneW 
[07:27] <sanool> help~can anyone connect with freeflying.i should pay him the post fee.
[07:27] <JaneW> jsgotangco: flattery will get you anywhere :)
[07:27] <jsgotangco> sanool, just send him a pm
[07:28] <sanool> thanks~but so sorry that i'm a newer with irc.
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[07:30] <Mithrandir> JaneW: it's moree correct on page 3, though
[07:30] <sanool> jsgotangco,the pm means the personal message, so funny~. thanks
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[07:34] <JaneW> Mithrandir: yes
[07:34] <JaneW> Mithrandir: it sounds like I am a spokesperson for the Isle of Man though ;)
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[07:43] <Treenaks> JaneW: you mean you aren't? ;)
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[07:51] <Azerion> hello?
[07:53] <Azerion> ..?
[07:53] <Azerion> I have a question
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[07:54] <fabbione> just ask
[07:54] <fabbione> too late
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[08:10] <JaneW> Treenaks: not for the 'enotire
[08:10] <JaneW> oops 'entire' country, no ;)
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[08:55] <zakame> ji all
[08:55] <zakame> er hi
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[09:22] <neuralis> JaneW: ping
[09:22] <JaneW> neuralis: pong
[09:23] <neuralis> JaneW: hardware-testing-catalog is incorrectly listed in the latest dev status report
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[09:24] <neuralis> JaneW: basically, i wrote both server testing specs, the owners are now changed to mdy/benc, and mdz requested i move dapper+1 bits into hardware-testing-catalog
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[09:24] <dholbach> good morning
[09:25] <neuralis> JaneW: so i should have no more goals assigned to me, though you're free to keep hardware-testing-catalog on there as unlikely for dapper
[09:26] <JaneW> neuralis: oic
[09:27] <JaneW> neuralis: are you krstic?
[09:27] <neuralis> JaneW: yes.
[09:27] <JaneW> aaah ;)
[09:28] <JaneW> neuralis: ok so hardware-testing-catalog is deferred to dapper+1
[09:28] <neuralis> JaneW: great, thank you.
[09:28] <JaneW> neuralis: and mdy and BenC are working on the other 2 portions
[09:28] <JaneW> ok got it thanks
[09:29] <neuralis> JaneW: yes, i had a phone call with mdy some days ago and we sorted things out.
[09:29] <JaneW> neuralis: thanks. The specs all got a bit tangled and it wasn't clear who was doing what for a while ;)
[09:31] <neuralis> JaneW: yeah, because the BoF discussed the wrong thing, and when this was figured out, i ended up inheriting the specs :)
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[09:32] <JaneW> neuralis: sorry and THANK-YOU
[09:33] <neuralis> JaneW: not a problem at all. i understood what i was getting myself into, and we did get everything under control.
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[09:37] <makx> are there backports of the R release against breezy?
[09:37] <makx> googling only come up with forcing sarge backports
[09:37] <makx> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-49178.html
[09:38] <dholbach> makx: you should better write to ubuntu-backports@ and ask the question there.
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[09:45] <makx> dholbach: thanks for the pointer.
[09:45] <dholbach> makx: they will check if a backport is possible, if it makes sense and make it happen
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[09:56] <makx> dholbach: R is in universe
[09:57] <makx> so i guess it means to set up a chroot ;)
[09:57] <dholbach> makx: I'd just let the Backports Team handle it.
[09:58] <dholbach> makx: If you're in desperate need, you can just grab the Dapper source and build and install it with    debuild && sudo debi
[09:58] <dholbach> (get the orig.tar.gz, dsc and .diff.gz)
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[09:59] <makx> dholbach: no desperate need but heavy R usage around
[09:59] <makx> it's on different profs laptops
[09:59] <makx> our server use debian
[09:59] <makx> s/server/servers/
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[10:02] <pitti> Good morning everybody
[10:04] <dholbach> heya pitti
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[10:08] <freeflying> pitti: hi
[10:08] <pitti> hey dholbach, hi freeflying 
[10:09] <freeflying> pitti: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1721 need review and upload 
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[10:29] <makx> dholbach: mailed
[10:29] <makx> have a nice day :)
[10:29] <dholbach> makx: cool
[10:29] <dholbach> You too!
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[10:40] <pitti> hi mvo
[10:41] <mvo> hey pitti
[10:41] <dholbach> hello mvo!
[10:41] <mvo> hello dholbach!
[10:48] <tepsipakki> who could take a look at malone bug #30141 ?
[10:48] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30141 in glibc "nscd needs to start earlier" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30141
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[11:05] <Seveas> Anybody tried todays daily?
[11:06] <jsgotangco> currently installing edubuntu daily
[11:06] <Seveas> dang
[11:07] <Seveas> ubuntu daily fails to start in vmware - guess it's a vmware problem :(
[11:08] <ogra> Kamion, ping 
[11:09] <Seveas> hmm, deleted VM, created new one, now I get gfxboot :)
[11:10] <Seveas> and the udev bug that bit me yesterday is gone, go keybuK!
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[11:12] <Kamion> ogra: yo?
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[11:12] <Kamion> Seveas: fails to mount filesystem after first reboot? known bug
[11:12] <ogra> Kamion, i played with cdimage yesterday, but somehow i dont get it right it seems
[11:12] <Kamion> affects the particular kind of SCSI driver emulated by vmware
[11:13] <Kamion> ogra: what happened?
[11:13] <Seveas> Kamion, and now it hangs at 'Loading pdc202xx_old' during installer boot :(
[11:13] <ogra> Kamion, as i understood i first run: for-project edubuntu build-image-set daily ?
[11:13] <Kamion> ogra: did you follow my instructions? it doesn't look like it
[11:13] <ogra> and afterwards the pubilsh-daily ?
[11:13] <Kamion> argh, no
[11:13] <ogra> (didnt run the latter)
[11:14] <Kamion> ogra: READ and FOLLOW /srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/secret/README
[11:14] <Kamion> do that first
[11:14] <Kamion> and then you run 'for-project edubuntu cron.daily' - don't run build-image-set by hand
[11:14] <ogra> gah, missed the secret :(
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[11:14] <ogra> sorry
[11:14] <ogra> i read the wrong instructions
[11:15] <Kamion> calling build-image-set by hand will break because CDIMAGE_INSTALL=1 won't be set
[11:15] <Kamion> you'll effectively get a null CD ;0
[11:15] <Kamion> ;)
[11:15] <ogra> so i only run the publish stuff as in the instructions ...
[11:16] <Kamion> no, don't run publish-* by hand
[11:16] <Kamion> well, not publish-daily anyway
[11:16] <Kamion> build-image-set does that for you
[11:16] <ogra> ah, k
[11:16] <Seveas> ugh, what is up with this vmware crud :( It hangs at random places
[11:16] <Kamion> you should only run 'for-project edubuntu cron.daily' and/or 'for-project edubuntu cron.daily-live'
[11:16] <ogra> oki
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[11:17] <tepsipakki> seveas: workstation or server?
[11:17] <Seveas> server
[11:18] <tepsipakki> ok, I'm still waiting for some space on our ESX-server to test the installation..
[11:18] <Seveas> had to boot it 3 times to get through cdrom detection
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[11:18] <Seveas> and now it hangs while retrieving packages
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[11:18] <Seveas> that's it - rm -rf
[11:19] <Kamion> last vmware install I did ran perfectly up to the first reboot
[11:19] <Kamion> that was about a week and a half ago
[11:20] <Seveas> breezy installed fine yesterday, after a dist-upgrade to dapper first boot failed
[11:20] <HrdwrBoB> yes
[11:20] <Seveas> dapper-daily yesterday failed to boot completely
[11:20] <Seveas> and now it hangs at random places
[11:20] <HrdwrBoB> it doesn't update module-init-tools
[11:20] <HrdwrBoB> before the kernel
[11:20] <HrdwrBoB> which builds a broken initrd
[11:21] <Kamion> HrdwrBoB: but just about everything that's in the initramfs should call update-initramfs
[11:21] <Kamion> so even if the first one breaks, you should eventually get a working one
[11:21] <Kamion> it does mean the initramfs gets regenerated rather a lot during big upgrade
[11:21] <Kamion> s
[11:22] <HrdwrBoB> Kamion: well.. I upgraded, and for some reason it didn't update module-init-tools at all
[11:22] <HrdwrBoB> though I think I was just getting the kernel
[11:22] <Kamion> that would be a separate problem ...
[11:22] <HrdwrBoB> which didn't depend on module-init-tools even though it does
[11:22] <Kamion> only sort of
[11:22] <Kamion> dependencies from the kernel are always awkward
[11:23] <Kamion> but actually, I beg to differ ...
[11:23] <Kamion>  Package: linux-image-2.6.15-15-386
[11:23] <Kamion>  Version: 2.6.15-15.21
[11:23] <Kamion>  Depends: initramfs-tools (>= 0.36ubuntu6), coreutils | fileutils (>= 4.0), module-init-tools (>= 3.2.1-0ubuntu1)
[11:23] <HrdwrBoB> is that the latest version
[11:23] <HrdwrBoB> it failed with a -Q not understood problem
[11:23] <Kamion> module-init-tools | 3.2.2-1ubuntu3 |        dapper | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
[11:23] <Kamion> -Q has been there for a while though, I think
[11:23] <HrdwrBoB> that'll do it
[11:24] <HrdwrBoB> well.. the version I had didn't have -Q
[11:24] <Kamion> ah, 3.2.1-0ubuntu1 didn't
[11:24] <HrdwrBoB> which I'm pretty sure is breezy
[11:24] <Kamion> specifically that version - older and newer ones did
[11:24] <Kamion> module-init-tools | 3.2-pre7-0ubuntu4 |        breezy | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
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[11:24] <HrdwrBoB> oh, haha
[11:25] <Kamion> -Q was added in 3.1-rel-2ubuntu2
[11:26] <Kamion> it's not the kernel itself that's calling modprobe though
[11:26] <HrdwrBoB> true
[11:27] <HrdwrBoB> but the kernel will never boot correctly without an initrd that'll boot properly which will never boot properly without the right modprobe
[11:27] <Kamion> that indicates, though, that the dependency should be elsewhere
[11:28] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[11:28] <Kamion> what were you upgrading from? definitely breezy?
[11:28] <Emerson> btw, running Dapper, only minor issue I ran into was with nvidia-glx ...  
[11:29] <HrdwrBoB> I'm almost 100% certain
[11:29] <HrdwrBoB> also, there's no 686-smp? I assume that's deliberate 
[11:29] <Kamion> see the changelog
[11:30] <Kamion> -686 does automatic SMP now
[11:30] <Kamion> breezy's modprobe definitely supports -Q
[11:30] <Kamion> anyway, I think you should file a bug on initramfs-tools asking that it depend on some suitable version of module-init-tools
[11:30] <HrdwrBoB> yeah I'll do so
[11:31] <Kamion> since it uses modprobe -Qb, it should depend on module-init-tools (>= 3.2.1-0ubuntu2)
[11:32] <Emerson> Kamion: am I wrong but isn't all x86 doing auto SMP now?
[11:32] <Kamion> Emerson: correct
[11:32] <Kamion> Emerson: HrdwrBoB asked about -686, not all x86, so I answered the question he asked :)
[11:32] <Emerson> lol
[11:34] <ogra> Kamion, cdimage worked fine now, thanks a lot.... one note though, having a known_hosts file prepared for the publishing hosts to just copy in place would be helpful 
[11:35] <Kamion> it's only a problem once per user, so I've never really had the interest to fix that up
[11:36] <ogra> yup
[11:36] <Kamion> but sure, I guess
[11:37] <ogra> hmm, why is all this lsb stuff failing ...
=== ogra goes digging
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[11:50] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion,sent you a pt.po of debian-installer*16.
[11:51] <Kamion> thanks
[11:52] <Riddell> Kamion: are we looking to do flight 4 today?
[11:55] <Kamion> Riddell: no
[11:56] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: the way there are XML tags in the translatable text is unfortunate, and one of yours is mismatched ... fixing
[11:56] <Riddell> ok
[11:57] <Kamion> Riddell: next week, I imagine - not having my main test machine until yesterday has just thrown me too much out of kilter
[11:58] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, ok. thx.
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[12:01] <ogra> is the squashfs stuff fixed for livecds ? 
[12:03] <jsgotangco> hrmmmm
[12:03] <ogra> jsgotangco, ?
[12:04] <jsgotangco> even my ubuntu 64 fails
[12:04] <Ubugtu> ubuntu bug 64 in pwlib "pwlib: FTBFS: Shared libraries without -fPIC." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]  http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=64
[12:04] <ogra> heh, go Ubugtu 
[12:05] <lifeless> Ubugtu: help
[12:05] <jsgotangco> lsb stuff fails too
[12:06] <ogra> yup
[12:06] <ogra> thats what the reports show ...
[12:06] <jsgotangco> i guess its spread to all arches
[12:06] <ogra> i'll dig into it once i fixed the inputattach breagake for edubuntu
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=== jsgotangco goes to enjoy friday...
[12:12] <tseng> jsgotangco: bye
[12:12] <jsgotangco> tseng!
[12:12] <jsgotangco> too early?
[12:12] <tseng> you said you were leaving :)
[12:13] <tseng> and yes, it is quite early
[12:13] <Kamion> ogra: current kernel should fix it, will need new livefs and CD builds obviously following the kernel binaries being accepted into the archive, if that hasn't happened already for you
[12:13] <jsgotangco> ahh i'll see you later then, good to see you too..cheers
[12:13] <Kamion> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/livefs-build-logs/dapper/ubuntu/20060210/livecd-20060210-i386.out indicates that the current Ubuntu livefs build should be using a fixed kernel
[12:13] <ogra> Kamion, dunno about the livefs ... infinity ?
[12:14] <ogra> hmm, probably asleep ...
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[12:19] <Kamion> ogra: the reason I published http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/livefs-build-logs/ was so that you could check this sort of thing yourself without reference to infinity
[12:19] <ogra> Kamion, yes
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[12:27] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: excellent, working great after I made a fix or two
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[12:27] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, probably I made some mistakes modifying translation of version 15 to version 16, anyway, let me know if you need something else.
[12:28] <Kamion> there were no changes in translatable text between 20051026ubuntu15 and 20051026ubuntu16
[12:29] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, well... my files were slightly different namely in the amount of text per line
[12:29] <Kamion> so this stuff will look wrong for netboot images, but very few people will actually see it in that case
[12:29] <Kamion> MEDIA_TYPE will generally be "CD-ROM", which seems to look o
[12:29] <Kamion> ok
[12:30] <Kamion> line length of .po files is irrelevant and in fact gets clobbered by msgcat anyway, so I don't care
[12:30] <Kamion> you should generally run your files through msgcat to produce a version in canonical form though
[12:30] <Kamion> I'll do that with your file now
[12:31] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, yes... majority of cases will be "CD-ROM" and for more complicated stuff the sort of people that do it are used to English.
[12:35] <infinity> Kamion: What was wrong with http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/liveLogs/ ?
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[12:37] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, in any case if translators add things like "este(a)" when refering to "this CD-ROM" or "this netboot images",respectively, allows feminine and masculin words to follow "this", even if they are in english makes a lot more sense.
[12:37] <WaterSevenUb> Kamion, of course in English that doesn't matter.
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[12:38] <Kamion> infinity: I didn't know about it and it wasn't on DeveloperResources?
[12:38] <Kamion> I'll kill my mirror and stick in a redirect, then
[12:38] <ogra> hmmm.... i should probably add inputattach to the live seed as well ...
[12:39] <Kamion> ogra: what seed is it in at the moment?
[12:40] <Kamion> WaterSevenUb: yeah, I realise the current way it assembles sentences is a problem, it's just hard to fix
[12:40] <ogra> it was pulled in by ltsp-client, but debian asked me to remove the hard dependency
[12:40] <infinity> Kamion: Fair enough.  I don't think we've pointed anyone at it since Montreal.
[12:40] <ogra> i just added it to edubuntu-server ... but that wont help in liveCDs
[12:41] <Kamion> ogra: it seems to me that hardware activation packages belong in minimal or standard or something, not live
[12:41] <Kamion> or server for that matter ...
[12:41] <ogra> its not used by default 
[12:41] <Kamion> but that would require modifying the main Ubuntu seeds, of course
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[12:41] <Kamion> sure, but even so
[12:41] <Kamion> if it's there, we can point people to it
[12:41] <ogra> its only for manual working around serial mouse breakage ...
[12:41] <ogra> yup
[12:41] <Kamion> I don't think we should be haphazardly adding it to outer seeds
[12:42] <ogra> will add it to minimal then 
[12:42] <ogra> its 80k or so ... anyway ...
[12:42] <Kamion> I think maybe standard
[12:42] <Kamion> if it doesn't do anything by default, it doesn't need to be in the debootstrapped set
[12:43] <Kamion> (btw, current Ubuntu live CD works for me)
[12:43] <ogra> oh, great ...
[12:44] <ogra> i'll need another build, powerpc isnt there ...
[12:48] <Kamion> go ahead
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[12:48] <ogra> will do ... 
[12:48] <ogra> let me update the seeds first ;)
[12:48] <ogra> so i dont have to do another one :)
[12:56] <Kamion> infinity: I've changed the URL in DeveloperResources now. Can't put a redirect in until the RT request I've just filed for an Apache configuration change is addressed, though.
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[01:05] <Seveas> WOOHOO
[01:05] <Seveas> it took a long time, but dapper finally installed and booted in vmware :)
[01:05] <tepsipakki> duh, mkinitramfs hosed my kernels, they panic on boot because they can't find root.. how to fix that?
[01:06] <HrdwrBoB> all of your kernels?
[01:06] <tepsipakki> yes
[01:06] <HrdwrBoB> nice
[01:06] <tepsipakki> yes ;)
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[01:07] <infinity> tepsipakki: update-initramfs doesn't act on non-default kernels unless you ask it to.
[01:07] <tepsipakki> dist-upgrade did, I guess
[01:07] <infinity> Shouldn't.
[01:07] <tepsipakki> I already had dapper on this
[01:08] <infinity> It should only update the initrd for the current kernel.
[01:08] <tepsipakki> it also installed a new one =)
[01:08] <infinity> Of course, if you only have one kernel...
[01:08] <tepsipakki> my root is a real partition, but rest is on lvm.. so it's tricky to fix
=== jbailey wonders if launchpad is slow from the pass of other people reporting "Where did my network interfaces go" on udev? =)
[01:09] <infinity> Anyhow, recent changes were made to udev to "fix" the driver load order, which may have made your root move.  You may want to bug Keybuk about it (I'm heading to bed in about 20 seconds)
[01:09] <ogra> infinity, could you trigger a livefs build for edubuntu (i suppose the other ones also want inputattach on the liveCD, so probably for all)
[01:10] <Mithrandir> I can do it
[01:10] <Kamion> jbailey: not just me who had it renamed to _eth0, then?
[01:11] <infinity> Mithrandir: Thanks.
[01:11] <Kamion> ogra: the others can wait for the nightly build, I think
[01:11] <jbailey> Kamion: Nope.  I'm just confirming and adding a "me too" to bug 31040
[01:11] <Ubugtu> malone bug 31040 in udev "eth0 has disappeared after recent update" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/31040
[01:11] <jbailey> Ubugtu: thanks. =)
[01:11] <ogra> Kamion, k
[01:11] <tepsipakki> infinity: thanks, I will
[01:11] <Mithrandir> ogra: just the live fs or a full cd?
[01:12] <ogra> Mithrandir, i can build the images myself now ... only the livefs ... i'll care for the rest
[01:13] <Mithrandir> ogra: running.
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[01:14] <ogra> thanks :)
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[01:20] <tepsipakki> there are no daily-dvd:s for i386?
[01:22] <Kamion> no, probably broke for the same reason live CD builds for amd64/i386 were breaking until yesterday
[01:22] <Kamion> the next build should work
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[01:22] <doko> any known problems with the boot process? just tried to start my laptop after I came home, but it fails to mount the root partititon: Device or resource busy
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[01:29] <tepsipakki> kamion: do you know when that build is ready?-)
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[01:30] <Kamion> tepsipakki: 17 12 * * 2,6   for-project ubuntu cron.dvd
[01:30] <Kamion> ^-- crontab entry
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[01:31] <tepsipakki> cool
[01:31] <Riddell> seb128: running gnome-settings-daemon changes my font sizes in KDE, any idea what it's doing?
[01:32] <seb128> Riddell: setting the dpi
[01:32] <Riddell> xdpyinfo doesn't say anything different
[01:32] <seb128> it sets the Xft/DPI xsetting
[01:32] <seb128> Xft/HintStyle Xft/Hinting Xft/Antialias too
[01:33] <seb128> hum
[01:33] <Riddell> why does it do that?  and where can I find out what it's set it to?
[01:33] <seb128> it doesn't that because you can configure the settings from GNOME
[01:34] <seb128> you might be interested by http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104341
[01:34] <seb128> especially Owen's comments about that
[01:34] <Ubugtu> gnome2 bug 104341 in font properties "gconf DPI ignores system settings" [Normal,New]  
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[01:35] <Treenaks> Can someone please look at bug 4773? It's breaking my system :(
[01:35] <Ubugtu> malone bug 4773 in wacom-tools "please update packages" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4773
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[01:40] <Riddell> seb128: so essentially gnome always uses a dpi of 96?
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[01:41] <seb128> Riddell: you can change it with gconf key /desktop/gnome/font_rendering/dpi
[01:41] <seb128> but by default yep
[01:41] <Riddell> I wonder if we should just set the X server to have that DPI
[01:43] <ogra> doesnt it default to 96 ? 
[01:44] <Riddell> ogra: the X server current defaults to whatever the monitor tells it to
[01:44] <Riddell> which isn't always reliable
[01:45] <seb128> that's why GNOME use a fixed value
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[01:46] <ogra_> i remember gdm setting the -dpi flag for the X server, but thats long ago i think ...
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[01:54] <Treenaks> Anyone wit ha Mac Mini here?
[01:54] <Treenaks> with a
[01:54] <mvo> Treenaks: IIRC Riddell has one
[01:54] <Riddell> Treenaks: yep
[01:55] <Treenaks> Riddell: Do you experience bug 29365?
[01:55] <Ubugtu> malone bug 29365 in xserver-xorg-driver-ati "Broken output on Mac Mini (Radeon 9200)" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/29365
[01:55] <Riddell> Treenaks: nope
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[01:57] <Treenaks> hmm
[01:57] <Treenaks> not even the 'invalid IO allocation' part?
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[01:58] <lemsto> hi there :D
[02:00] <lemsto> i've a question about dependencies: Why is it needed to install both totem/gstreamer and rythmbox, i mean in debian i could install totem OR rythmbox (or both...)
[02:00] <Kamion> lemsto: you don't have to keep ubuntu-desktop installed if you don't want to
[02:01] <Kamion> I mean, it's what we provide and support, but if you don't want all of it then you can remove it
[02:01] <lemsto> dummy package as ubuntu-desktop and other ubuntu-omething are already removed :p
[02:01] <lemsto> i wanted to install rythmbox and dependencies oblige to instal totem with
[02:02] <lemsto> (im using breezy)
[02:03] <Kamion> that's not the case in dapper any more
[02:03] <lemsto> ok thanks
[02:03] <Kamion> the dependency was added due to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/rhythmbox/+bug/18518
[02:03] <Ubugtu> malone bug 18518 in rhythmbox "rhythmbox dependancy problems" [Normal,Fix released]  
[02:04] <Kamion> I think it was before the libtotem-plparser* package was created for the library, so at that point rhythmbox had to depend on totem to get that library
[02:04] <lemsto> i see
[02:04] <seb128> exact
[02:05] <seb128> now it's splitted and we use the lib
[02:05] <Kamion> presumably it was just an oversight that the dependency wasn't dropped in breezy
[02:05] <Treenaks> Kamion: A few people are asking for the (not-updated-since-before-hoary) wacom driver to be updated, is there _any_ chance that this might happen, or are we basically stuck until dapper+1 for that?
[02:05] <Kamion> Treenaks: I have absolutely no idea, I don't have the hardware and know nothing about it
[02:06] <Kamion> Treenaks: the bug is assigned to mjg59; if he or somebody else wants to update the package, I'm sure that could be arranged as long as it happens soon
[02:06] <Treenaks> Kamion: ok.. I'll talk to him t hen
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[02:15] <Treenaks> mjg59: ping?
[02:16] <mjg59> Treenaks: Hi
[02:16] <mjg59> No time to deal with it right now
[02:16] <mjg59> After the weekend with luck
[02:16] <Treenaks> mjg59: ok, sure
=== ogra kicks powerpc live ....
[02:17] <ogra> why the heck are they 70MB bigger ...
[02:18] <Yagisan> ogra: because they like to be special :)
[02:18] <ogra> but 70MB !
[02:18] <ogra> i386 is 634MB big, ppc is at 712 now
[02:18] <Yagisan> ogra: how does it compare to amd64 ?
[02:19] <ogra> and powerpc doent even have the gcompris sound packages anymore (~50MB dropped there)
[02:19] <ogra> amd64 ~ 650MB 
[02:19] <ogra> (with gcompris)
[02:20] <ogra> i'm running out of packages i can drop ...
[02:20] <Yagisan> ogra: hmm, they aren't being built with outrageous cflags are they ? eg unrolling all loops etc
[02:20] <ogra> they are all built the same way 
[02:20] <ogra> its just the package selection and package sizes that differ ...
[02:21] <jdub> ogra: how would you rate the quality of current dapper edubuntu livecd?
[02:21] <ogra> jdub, no idea, i just built the image ...
[02:21] <ogra> the last one i tried with an outdated livefs looked fine ...
[02:22] <jdub> ok thanks
[02:22] <ogra> jdub, ask again in ~2h ... then i'll have tested the current ones
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[02:22] <Kamion> ogra: er, possibly because you have a huge pile of extra language packs in powerpc?
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[02:23] <Kamion> ogra: try diffing the .manifest files, it makes it pretty clear
[02:23] <ogra> oh, ok ... i was only looking at seeds
[02:23] <Kamion>  * Languages: zh bn de fr
[02:23] <Kamion>  * language-pack-${Languages} [powerpc ia64] 
[02:23] <Kamion>  * language-pack-gnome-${Languages} [powerpc ia64] 
[02:23] <Kamion>  * Languages: es hi ar pt ru ja ca
[02:23] <Kamion>  * language-pack-${Languages} [powerpc] 
[02:23] <Kamion>  * language-pack-gnome-${Languages} [powerpc] 
[02:23] <Kamion> ^-- edubuntu-dapper/live seed
[02:26] <seb128> how much space do we win on the CD with the gst0.8 cleanup?
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[02:30] <Chipzz> seb128: talking about gst0.8 to gst0.10 migration... there are *a lot* of plugins missing in gst0.10 wrt gst0.8 ... isn't that a regression?
[02:30] <seb128> Chipzz: exageration will not lead you anywhere
[02:30] <tseng> Chipzz: there are alot of firefox plugins that dont work with 1.5
[02:31] <tseng> Chipzz: do you think we would be further ahead if we went back to 1.0 for the next 6 months?
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[02:31] <Chipzz> root@Reel:~# dpkg -l | grep gst | grep -c 0.8
[02:31] <Chipzz> 29
[02:31] <Chipzz> root@Reel:~# dpkg -l | grep gst | grep -c 0.10
[02:31] <Chipzz> 12
[02:32] <tseng> er dude
[02:32] <tseng> that is a totally bogus number
[02:32] <Chipzz> you're calling this an exageration?
[02:32] <Chipzz> I call that a joke
[02:32] <tseng> 0.10 plugins are bundled into -good
[02:32] <Chipzz> not it's not
[02:32] <seb128> Chipzz: lol, we stopped to split the binary packages
[02:32] <tseng> you are full of it, please do the research
[02:32] <tseng> and come back
[02:32] <seb128> your dpkg -l | wc is so wrong
[02:32] <seb128> that's really funny :)
[02:32] <Chipzz> hrm
[02:33] <tseng> the only major plugin that isnt ported is -dvd
[02:33] <Chipzz> last I checked there wasn't much in gstreamer0.10-plugins-good ;P
[02:33] <seb128> $ dpkg -L gstreamer0.10-plugins-good | grep .so | wc -l
[02:33] <seb128> 41
[02:33] <Chipzz> some plugins must have been added :P
[02:33] <seb128> sure
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[02:34] <seb128> start whining first, look on what is really shipped then .... :)
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[02:34] <Chipzz> :P
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[02:35] <Chipzz> so why don't we split the plugins anymore than?
[02:35] <ogra> seb128, looks like edubuntu won only 4MB on the live CD with gst0.10
[02:35] <seb128> because it was overcomplicated
[02:35] <seb128> that's not usuful
[02:35] <tseng> because upstream already split them into logical groups
[02:35] <seb128> useful
[02:35] <seb128> that matches better upstream and others distros etc
[02:35] <Chipzz> seb128: and now we have 1 package with a huge list of dependencies :/
[02:35] <seb128> no
[02:36] <seb128> we have splitted stuff with many deps, like -gnomevfs, -x, -alsa, etc
[02:36] <seb128> we just stopped splitting for tiny libs, like 200k Depends doesn't require a new binary
[02:36] <jdub> and the old split wasn't always that sensible anyway
[02:37] <jdub> big x depends when all you want is tcpsink!
[02:37] <Chipzz> jdub?
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[02:38] <Chipzz> but the list of dependencies looks reasonable :)
[02:40] <seb128> so what is your issue exactly ? :)
[02:40] <Chipzz> seb128: I was mistakenly worried about regressions ;)
[02:40] <seb128> so no issue, cool :)
[02:41] <Chipzz> the bundling of a lot of plugins in one package *is* a bit confusing though...
[02:42] <Chipzz> I've been working with debian for a long time, and I was wondering "wtf?" when trying to migrate the plugins from 0.8 to 0.10 ;)
[02:42] <Chipzz> but I hope that's resolved with dependencies now ;)
[02:44] <seb128> the issue with too much split was also it makes non-trivial for users to know what to install
[02:44] <seb128> so most of people were installing everything anyway
[02:46] <mdke> has anyone else seen some strange behaviour with screen blanking: my gf rang and said that every time the screen blanks on her laptop, it doesn't come back up again...
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[02:47] <mjg59> mdke: Using nvidia drivers?
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[02:48] <mdke> mjg59, no, it has a built-in ati graphics card
[02:48] <ogra> running breezy i suppose ...
[02:48] <mjg59> mdke: Ok. No idea, then.
[02:49] <mdke> ogra, no, dapper. The problem just appeared today apparently
[02:49] <mdke> mjg59, okay, i'll look when I get home and file a bug
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[02:50] <ogra> mdke, there was no update either in X, screensaver or power manager ... i couldnt imagine anything else causing it ...
[02:50] <mdke> i think gnome-power-manager was only recently installed
[02:51] <mjg59> gnome-power-manager doesn't do any screen blanking
[02:51] <mjg59> It just tells gnome-screensaver to do so
[02:51] <mdke> hmm
[02:51] <ogra> mjg59, but we have an evil default in g-p-m i wanted to change anyway ...
[02:52] <ogra> (put computer to sleep after 20min is default if on battery)
[02:53] <Chipzz> seb128: hrm, am I mistaken or wasn't serpentine supposed to be migrated to python-gst2.4 ?
[02:53] <seb128> 2.4?
[02:53] <seb128> what is that?
[02:54] <Chipzz> err wait
[02:54] <seb128> serpentine gstreamer0.10 will be packaged today
[02:54] <seb128> if that's the question
[02:54] <ogra> wow, thats a big jump, given that we are at 0.10
[02:54] <Chipzz> python-gst0.10
[02:54] <Chipzz> ah ok :)
[02:54] <ogra> :)
[02:58] <lemsto> do you need many more dapper testers? (amd64) im asking myself for a week if i should wait to dist-upgrade...
[03:03] <dholbach> lemsto: there was an announce of the dist-upgrade tool - you could test that.
[03:04] <lemsto> ok
[03:05] <dholbach> lemsto: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-January/014700.html
[03:06] <Treenaks> dholbach: when is [hb] ug-day? :)
[03:06] <dholbach> Treenaks: friday, februrary 17th
[03:07] <Treenaks> dholbach: hm.. will you be fixing X boogz?
[03:07] <dholbach> X as in xorg?
[03:07] <Treenaks> dholbach: as in xserver-xorg-driver-ati :)
[03:07] <dholbach> No.
[03:07] <dholbach> I'm concerned about my mental health already.
[03:07] <Treenaks> hmm.. suckage :)
=== mdke nods
=== Treenaks will NOT hug dholbach
[03:08] <dholbach> I'll have to live with that.
=== HiddenWolf hugs dholbach instead
[03:08] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks does not know what's good for him.
[03:10] <mdke> can someone help me with a "what package is this a bug in" question? My dapper is allround slow, it takes ages to install new packages and the mouse wanders around the screen very jerkily. I'd love to know how to report this properly
[03:10] <Treenaks> mdke: what does top say?
[03:11] <mdke> Xorg and "ip" are using about 30-35% cpu
[03:11] <mdke> update-notifeir 15
[03:11] <Lathiat> ip is using 35% cpu?
[03:11] <Lathiat> thats not right
[03:11] <mdke> notifier-applet another 10
[03:11] <mdke> what is ip?
[03:11] <seb128> killall update-notifier
[03:11] <seb128> that's update-notifier bog, mvo is working on it
[03:12] <mdke> oh great, so I don't even have to report a bug
[03:12] <seb128> he just uploaded a new version that may fix it
[03:12] <mdke> yay, thanks seb128, as usual
[03:12] <seb128> np
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[03:12] <mvo> mdke: give the new one a try please and let me know. it seems to be very hard to reproduce, what did you do to make the bug appear?
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[03:13] <mdke> mvo, I just booted up, opened a terminal, did apt-get update and dist-upgrade. I think it was slow as soon as I booted, but I can't be sure
[03:13] <mdke> i'll try the new one when it lands
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[03:17] <pitti> hey Keybuk 
[03:17] <Keybuk> heyhey
[03:18] <seb128> hi Keybuk
[03:20] <ogra> Kamion, did you have network in your liveCD test ? 
[03:20] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: hey, is "starting pmcia services" supposed to print "fail" on a desktop?
[03:20] <Kamion> ogra: 12:10 < Kamion> jbailey: not just me who had it renamed to _eth0, then?
[03:21] <ogra> i can see eth0 in dmesg coming up if i plug in the pcmcia card, i got it in /proc/net/dev as well, but ifconfig tells me there is no eth0
[03:22] <Mez> ogra: is it in interfaces?
[03:22] <ogra> its not renamed or something ... just the networking tools dont seem to see it
[03:22] <Kamion> ogra: try 'ifconfig -a'
[03:22] <Kamion> I bet it's _eth0
[03:22] <ogra> and __eth0
[03:22] <ogra> funny
[03:22] <Kamion> there you go, bug 31040 then
[03:22] <Ubugtu> malone bug 31040 in udev "eth0 has disappeared after recent update" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/31040
[03:22] <ogra> ok, i'm fine then 
[03:23] <ogra> its all Keybuk's fault anyway :)
[03:23] <Keybuk> hmm, that _eth0 one is kinda interesting :)
[03:23] <Keybuk> who has that?
[03:23] <Mez> for some reason - i get a "cannot rename eth1 to eth0 - device is busy" on boot up
[03:23] <ogra> Keybuk, the current liveCd
[03:23] <Keybuk> Mez: yeah, that one was a think-o on my part
[03:23] <Kamion> Keybuk: jbailey and I both do
[03:23] <Keybuk> Kamion: oh good, could you check you don't have eth0 assigned to SOMETHING ELSE in your /etc/iftab? :p
[03:23] <Kamion> I'm getting it in a vmware boot of today's live CD
[03:23] <Kamion> apparently so
[03:24] <Mez> even though my wireless card dowsnt work anyways
=== Kamion blames Mithrandir
[03:24] <ogra> Keybuk, its assigned to a non existing MAC address here
[03:24] <Kamion> where the hell does that /etc/iftab come from on the live CD anyway?
[03:24] <Keybuk> Kamion: that's a good question
[03:24] <Keybuk> probably Mithrandir's desktop ;)
[03:25] <ogra> lets just find the MAC ;)
[03:25] <Kamion> unlikely, no mention of iftab in casper or livecd-rootfs
=== dholbach has a _eth0 too :)
[03:25] <ogra> 00:0d:60:1a:58:ca 
[03:25] <Keybuk> netcfg writes iftab, but that shouldn't happen for the livecd?
[03:25] <ogra> and :cb
[03:25] <Kamion> yeah, same as ogra
[03:25] <Kamion> Keybuk: indeed
[03:25] <ogra> who owns that card ?=
[03:25] <Keybuk> ogra: IBM
[03:25] <ogra> :P
[03:26] <ogra> i thought about the last three digits :)
[03:26] <Keybuk> anyway, yes, if the LiveCD has an iftab that would explain stuff for those bugs
[03:27] <jdub> mjg59: ping
[03:28] <fabbione> Keybuk: is there any hope to get the dhcp / resolv.conf bug fixed yesterday?
[03:28] <Keybuk> fabbione: bug#?
[03:29] <fabbione> dunno
[03:29] <fabbione> the same you did tell me about in London
[03:29] <fabbione> so you know about it
[03:29] <Kamion> /etc/iftab is in the read-only file system so it's not casper's fault
[03:29] <fabbione> Keybuk: boottime -> interface up -> resolv.conf is empty
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[03:30] <Kamion> aHA
[03:30] <Kamion> it's udev
[03:30] <Keybuk> Kamion: could it be the iftab on the machine that makes the CDs
[03:30] <Keybuk> fabbione: that's been fixed for a week
[03:30] <ogra> pitti, i just burned a set of CDs, usually they get mounted after writing the CD ...
[03:30] <Kamion> Keybuk: your postinst generates an iftab from /sys/class/net/eth* on the buildd
[03:30] <Keybuk> yeah it does
[03:30] <fabbione> Keybuk: no it's not.. i rebooted this morning after an upgrade and the problem is still there
[03:30] <Kamion> Keybuk: can you not do that on initial install, maybe?
[03:30] <Keybuk> fabbione: then please file a bug
[03:30] <Keybuk> Kamion: aye, that seems a bit silly to do now ;)
[03:31] <ogra> pitti, normally on /media/dvdrecorder/ ... but the third burn got mounted as /media/scd0/
[03:31] <fabbione> Keybuk: do you have the old bug number to reopen?
[03:31] <pitti> hmm
[03:31] <Kamion> in fact, maybe just don't do it at all
[03:31] <Keybuk> fabbione: no, and if there were an old bug, it's fixed -- you must have a different bug
[03:31] <Kamion> I can't see a massive benefit in doing it automatically
[03:31] <Keybuk> Kamion: indeed, let's leave that to the installer
[03:31] <pitti> ogra: that's actually a regression, previous versions of n-c-b ejected the CDs by default
[03:31] <Kamion> Keybuk: righto
[03:31] <pitti> ogra: because many drives don't get along very well with immediate mount after burn
[03:31] <ogra> pitti, it didnt do it yesterday ... thats not what i mean 
[03:32] <pitti> ogra: does eject/reinstert help?
[03:32] <fabbione> Keybuk: against what package do you want it?
[03:32] <Keybuk> fabbione: dhcp3-client probably
[03:32] <ogra> pitti, to late, already unplugged the writer ...
[03:32] <ogra> pitti, i just meant the name change of the mount point, that didnt occur to me yet 
[03:33] <mjg59> jdub: Hi - need to head out to a meeting now, back in a couple of hours
[03:33] <ogra> (its a usb writer)
[03:33] <pitti> yes, that's strange
[03:33] <ogra> i'll keep an eye on it, will test install CDs as well today, so lets see if it happens again ...
[03:35] <pitti> mvo: tbird locales drive me crazy - they don't work for no apparent reason; I asked the debian maintainer now, before I waste another hour on it
[03:35] <fabbione> Keybuk: unlikely, but well one to start is like any other
[03:35] <pitti> mvo: or did you have more luck by any chance?
[03:35] <mvo> pitti: no, I had exactly the same problem :(
[03:35] <fabbione> Keybuk: 31057
[03:36] <Keybuk> fabbione: definitely likely.  the previous bug was simply that /etc wasn't writable at the time
[03:37] <Keybuk> are you running network-manager, btw?  with a static IP configuration?
[03:37] <fabbione> Keybuk: no network-manager.
[03:37] <fabbione> it's a workstation.
[03:37] <fabbione> just ip assigned by DHPC
[03:37] <fabbione>  / on lvm
[03:39] <Treenaks> Keybuk: speaking of iftab/ifrename... my laptop's interfaces switched around, and I need to run /etc/init.d/ifrename start to rename them back to their breezy names
[03:40] <Keybuk> Treenaks: I'll deal with you in a moment ... ;)
[03:41] <fabbione> Keybuk: anyway i will do some more appropriate debugging on monday
[03:41] <fabbione> Keybuk: so don't get headacke for it
[03:41] <Keybuk> we do need a "Knowledge Base"
[03:43] <zakame> hello Keybuk 
[03:43] <fabbione> we need a stable boot process first :P
[03:45] <Keybuk> we need stable developers for that :)
[03:46] <Treenaks> Do we need more crack for that, or less?
[03:46] <fabbione> Keybuk: that will reduce the choise to about.. hmm.. none
[03:47] <HrdwrBoB> FWIW, ext3 in breezy only supports 32,000 filenames per directory
[03:48] <fabbione> like all the other ext3 around the world
[03:49] <HrdwrBoB> allegedly it's unsigned and artificially limited to 32k instead of 64k
[03:50] <HrdwrBoB> anyway
[03:50] <Kinnison> to be honest, anyone who wants to put 32k entries in a directory should be shot anyway
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[03:51] <Treenaks> Kinnison: /usr/bin/
[03:51] <HrdwrBoB> Kinnison: I don't think they planned for having 42,000 accounts when they first  developed the system
[03:51] <Keybuk> Treenaks: has about 2,000 entries maxmimum
[03:51] <plb> Anyone know the best way to get in contact with Mark?
[03:51] <Diziet> -davenant:~> echo /export/mirror/Repository/data-md5/* | wc 
[03:51] <Diziet>       1  258116 17551888
[03:51] <Treenaks> HrdwrBoB: /home you mean? just split deeper :)
[03:52] <Keybuk> sweet:
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> Treenaks: no, custom web app - not an option
[03:52] <Keybuk> $ ifconfig
[03:52] <torkel> Kinnison: we have had users that had 1M++ files in directories
[03:52] <Keybuk> ath0: error fetching interface information: Device not found
[03:52] <Keybuk> oops
[03:52] <Kinnison> still seems daft not to have a hashing scheme in there
[03:52] <Keybuk> torkel: use a different filesystem, etc.
[03:52] <Kinnison> if only for speed of access
[03:52] <HrdwrBoB> I'm getting some more disks - I'll just make it XFS
[03:53] <Diziet> hashing scheme> should be done once, well, by the fs, not 100 times, badly, by 100 applications.
[03:53] <Treenaks> Kinnison: dir_index exists, and I've used it on all my systems since hoary
[03:53] <Diziet> Also, mkdir is not cheap compared to mknod.
[03:53] <torkel> Keybuk: on AFS... :-(
[03:53] <ogra> HrdwrBoB, fabbione, wrong, ext3 supports at least 180000 files per directioy ... i have one holding that much
[03:53] <Mithrandir> HrdwrBoB: files != directories.  40k files works fine.
[03:53] <Treenaks> Kinnison: though I agree 'all my systems' don't count as 'a good testcase'
[03:53] <ogra> Mithrandir, more :)
[03:53] <HrdwrBoB> sorry my bad
[03:53] <HrdwrBoB> directories
[03:53] <Mithrandir> ogra: I didn't say 40k was the limit.  I said it works fine.
[03:54] <ogra> yup :)
[03:54] <Treenaks> ogra: 180k files?! WHY?!
[03:54] <ogra> Treenaks, because it works :)
[03:55] <Treenaks> ogra: warez-d00d! ;)
[03:55] <ogra> nah
[03:56] <HrdwrBoB> what I want to know is why is an unsigned int limited to 32,000 entries
[03:56] <HrdwrBoB> instead of 64
[03:56] <HrdwrBoB> oh well
[03:56] <Diziet> So how evil would it be of me to put an rpath setting in a .pc file ?
[03:56] <Kamion> (for a factor of two, who cares?)
[03:57] <HrdwrBoB> it's just a wasted bit for no good reason
[03:57] <ogra> Treenaks, the only prob with so many files is that ls breaks on them ;)
[03:57] <Treenaks> ogra: how?
[03:58] <ogra> it cant take this many files ... ETOOMANYARGUMENTS
[03:58] <Treenaks> ogra: don't ls *
[03:58] <Treenaks> right?
[03:58] <HrdwrBoB> ogra: that's a shell limitation
[03:58] <HrdwrBoB> not ls
[03:58] <ogra> yup
[03:58] <HrdwrBoB> ls . works
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[03:58] <cieffe> hi everybody
[03:58] <HrdwrBoB> for i in *; do rm $i; works
[03:59] <Kamion> HrdwrBoB: ... that you know of. (I'm fairly sure I remember there being a good reason, although the discussion was six months ago and I don't remember it offhand.)
[03:59] <HrdwrBoB> +done
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[03:59] <Diziet> for i in *   works because you never call exec with the huge argument list.
[04:00] <Diziet> -davenant:~> /bin/echo /export/mirror/Repository/data-md5/* | wc 
[04:00] <Diziet> bash: /bin/echo: Argument list too long
[04:00] <Diziet>       0       0       0
[04:00] <plb> Anyone know how I could get in contact with Mark?
[04:00] <HrdwrBoB> Kamion: fair point
[04:01] <Kamion> plb: he's a pretty busy man - what are you trying to get in contact with him about?
[04:01] <plb> interview for a school paper
[04:01] <Keybuk> best thing would be to just e-mail mark.shuttleworth@canonical.com
[04:02] <plb> thanks
[04:02] <Keybuk> I wouldn't expect an immediate reply though as he's in Asia at the moment
[04:02] <plb> alright thanks
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[04:22] <ogra> jdub, current edubuntu live CDs are all fine (apart from the known bugs)
=== mvo is away for a bit
[04:23] <jdub> ogra: thanks
[04:23] <jdub> ogra: a friend will be demoing it to a local school
[04:23] <ogra> hmm ...
[04:23] <jdub> Kamion: is NEW processing not happening?
[04:24] <jdub> ogra: mostly because their laptop doesn't run breezy ;)
[04:24] <Keybuk> "everything's fine, except for when it's not"
[04:24] <ogra> jdub, i guess you've see the former discussion here about broken network interfaces
[04:24] <jdub> doko_: where does debian python policy live?
[04:24] <ogra> (which affects all liveCDs currently)
[04:25] <jdub> ogra: no, but that is very intersting ;)
[04:25] <jdub> doko_: n/m :-)
[04:25] <ogra> somehow /etc/iftsb has a fixed MAC eth0 and eth1 mapping currently ...
[04:25] <doko_> jdub: the doc is included in python-defaults
[04:26] <ogra> tsk
[04:26] <ogra>  /etc/iftab
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[04:28] <Kamion> jdub: only when I get round to it, why?
[04:28] <jdub> Kamion: seen libapache2-mod-annodex on its way through?
[04:29] <Kamion> jdub: processing
[04:29] <jdub> Kamion: pyannodex coming your way, too
[04:29] <Kamion> jdub: that's a dreadful package description, tells me nothing about what Annodex or CMML actually are
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[04:29] <Kamion> and temporal => temporary I suspect you mean
[04:29] <jdub> no, very much temporal
[04:29] <Kamion> time-based? ok
[04:30] <jdub> i'll improve it for the next release :-)
[04:30] <ogra> the apache time traveller module .... phear !
[04:30] <ogra> "see how your website will look tomorrow !!"
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[04:31] <jdub> naw, means you can link into temporal media, like audio and video
[04:31] <jdub> and the server will do the right thing
[04:31] <ogra> ah :)
[04:31] <jdub> when i say into, i mean *into*
[04:31] <Lathiat> heh, nice
[04:31] <ogra> ahh, like link to timecode 17:24 ?
[04:31] <Kamion> source accepted
[04:32] <jdub> ...?t=0:52:13.000 -> fifty-two minutes, thirteen seconds into the stream
[04:32] <jdub> Kamion: thanks
[04:32] <ogra> cool
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[04:32] <Kamion> I'm really not paying much attention to NEW at the moment though, too much code to write
[04:32] <jdub> Kamion: can't your gimp do it?
[04:33] <Kamion> also FWIW the only place the word "lesser" appears in pyannodex is in debian/copyright; the source is really under the Library GPL
[04:34] <Kamion> I know they're basically the same thing but you should probably be consistent with the licence the author actually used
[04:34] <jdub> hrm, yeah
[04:34] <doko_> Diziet: please add a conflict for firefox for the next upoad: Conflicts: mozilla-browser (<< 1.7.12-1ubuntu7)
[04:37] <Diziet> doko: No, I'm going to reorganise the files instead.
[04:37] <Diziet> And I'm going to file a bug against mozilla saying it shouldn't have /usr/lib/libxpcom.so either.
[04:37] <Mez> Keybuk: ping
[04:37] <Diziet> Unless you think that's a bad approach ...
[04:38] <Diziet> From your << it sounds like you've already changed mozilla ?
[04:39] <doko_> Diziet: yes, removed the symlink
[04:39] <Diziet> It was a symlink ?  Joyous :-).
[04:41] <Keybuk> Mez: 'sup?
[04:42] <Mithrandir> bounce
=== Mithrandir bounces.  A lot.
[04:44] <ogra> bouncer
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[04:47] <Keybuk> Mez: 'sup?
[04:47] <mdz> Mithrandir: where is/are your casper bzr branch(es)?
[04:47] <Mithrandir> mdz: p.u.c/~tfheen/bzr/casper/trunk is the trunk.
[04:47] <mdz> http://people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/bzr/casper/ ?
[04:47] <mdz> ok
[04:47] <Mithrandir> mdz: I just got ddcprobe working on amd64.
[04:48] <ogra> Mithrandir, any package i could try on my laptop ? 
[04:48] <mdz> Mithrandir: nice!
[04:48] <Mez> Keybuk: apparently theres a bug in mysql you've caused?
[04:49] <Mez> somehting to do with tmpfs
[04:49] <Keybuk> dunno, not looked at that one yet
[04:49] <janimo> mdz, Kamion have you got/read my xfce UVF exception request in mail? (sent Wednesday)
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[04:50] <Mez> Keybuk, basically /var/run/mysql is being set as 750 not 755
[04:52] <fabbione> Keybuk: your request for info on the bug was sort of hmm "overhead" :) specially after we did talk here on irc, but i still love you :P
[04:52] <Keybuk> Mez: then it's not a bug I've caused, but a bug in mysql's init script
[04:52] <Mez> ah fair enough
[04:52] <Mez> ah yes
[04:52] <Mez> umask=077
[04:52] <Keybuk> fabbione: dude, I have almost zero memory for IRC conversations ... if information isn't in the bug, it's not that useful to me
=== fabbione hands some more RAM to Keybuk 
[04:53] <mdz> janimo: yes, but it isn't very specific
[04:53] <Mithrandir> ogra: given that I just got finished the code, it hasn't hit my local bzr repo, even
[04:53] <Keybuk> fabbione: do you have resolvconf installed?  what are the permissions on /etc/resolv.conf?  is your dhcp server returning DNS information?  etc.
[04:54] <ogra> Mithrandir, ping me if you need testers ... i'd love to have 1200x800 on the liveCD on my laptop :)
[04:54] <ogra> 1024 looks weird :)
[04:54] <mdz> janimo: not only is it a new feature branch, but it's an unreleased development branch with no release date
[04:54] <Mithrandir> ogra: I also need to unbutcher the build system
[04:54] <janimo> mdz, a vague release date actually :)
[04:54] <fabbione> Keybuk: i think i do have resolvconf installed.. something keeps pulling it in. 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 root dhcp 50 2006-02-10 16:29 /etc/resolv.conf
[04:54] <fabbione> , my dns works just fine
[04:54] <janimo> but it is stable
[04:54] <Keybuk> fabbione: Solution: uninstall resolvconf
[04:55] <janimo> mdz, what would make you more comfortable wrt this?
[04:55] <fabbione> Keybuk: danke dude.
[04:55] <mdz> janimo: have you verified that all of these packages build and work with dapper versions of all dependencies?
[04:55] <janimo> should I contact upstream again and try getting a statement?>
[04:55] <fabbione> Keybuk: i will test monday.. i am not in the mood for a reboot now
[04:55] <ogra> Mithrandir, btw, thanks for the first working ppc liveCD, will make many people happy
[04:55] <mdz> janimo: if you move to the new versions and they don't work, requiring newer versions of some dependencies, you will be in a very unfortunate position
[04:55] <Keybuk> fabbione: it pretty much does that for everyone ... I've no idea why Debian people seem to like it, every time I've ever had it dragged onto my machine, I've lost DNS
[04:55] <janimo> mdz, I have been running on the svn version for two months
[04:55] <Mithrandir> ogra: woo, goodie.
[04:56] <fabbione> Keybuk: can't we conflict with it?
[04:56] <fabbione> or something...
[04:56] <janimo> and have built debs out of them this week so they're closer to what dapper will have
[04:56] <Keybuk> fabbione: it's in universe
[04:56] <janimo> mdz, there are 4 libarries and about 6 apps and over a dozen panel plugins
[04:57] <janimo> besides the plugins I have tested most
[04:57] <fabbione> Keybuk: yeah i know.. it's make utterly sure it's not installed.. EVER
[04:57] <mdz> janimo: I know that it's always tempting to bring in the latest features and satisfy user requests, the most important consideration is to produce a solid stable release on time, and there isn't much time left
[04:57] <ogra> Mithrandir, the usplash timeout should be enhanced for the ppc live version ... i saw the last 5 messages in cleartext ...
[04:58] <ogra> (but thats trivial)
[04:58] <mdz> janimo: we are comfortable doing this with GNOME because they have a very reliable schedule. we know that they will be stabilizing at the same time that we are
[04:58] <mdz> janimo: and we start tracking development right at the start of our release cycle
[04:58] <janimo> mdz, while xfce don't have a reliable schedule this time their matches ubuntus'
[04:58] <Mithrandir> ogra: it's 60 seconds.
[04:58] <ogra> hmm 
[04:59] <janimo> mdz, at least some apps (thunar file maanger) we already use since it is decouple from the rest of xfce
[04:59] <Mithrandir> ogra: what's the last message before where it switched?
[04:59] <ogra> phew, i'll have to re-test ...
[04:59] <sladen> ogra: get whatever is producing those message to send usplash a 'ping' to reset the watchdog
[04:59] <janimo> mdz, I understand your concern, but this really does not have bugs at least not many more than the 4.2
[04:59] <janimo> branch
[05:00] <sladen> ogra: the timeout should probably be way less than 60seconds otherwise it's an entire minute between an error occuring and the user seeing it
[05:00] <ogra> sladen, i dont think there was an error 
[05:00] <janimo> there are 4-5 decoupled apps each written by one developer more or less and not interacting much with the rest
[05:00] <ogra> it just vanished and continued booting in textmode
[05:00] <janimo> WM, panel, desktop manager, file manager etc.
[05:00] <Mithrandir> sladen: it needs to be increased on the live cd.
[05:01] <mdz> janimo: if it only involves updates to xfce packages, then I'll defer the decision to you.  I just want to be sure that you have considered this carefully and understand the risks
[05:01] <janimo> mdz, sure as I said it does not affect anything besides xfce packages
[05:01] <mdz> janimo: we will not be able to delay the release or risk destabilizing Ubuntu proper for Xubuntu
[05:01] <sladen> Mithrandir: if the it's 60seconds and the timeout has expired, that means the status hasn't been updated for 60seconds, which is a bit frustrating for the user
[05:01] <ogra> Mithrandir, i've set it to 120 in ltsp to cover even the real slow clients ...
[05:02] <sladen> Mithrandir: can you send it progress updates for whatever is taking that long
[05:02] <ogra> it didnt feel slow  ...
[05:02] <ogra> sladen, it didnt hang or feel slow 
[05:02] <mdz> janimo: please send me a complete list of the affected packages
[05:02] <ogra> and it didnt show an error ... 
[05:03] <janimo> mdz, understood. thank you. I am aware of the risks and I agree taht ubuntu should not be affected at all by xubuntu schedule
[05:03] <ogra> it just vanished ...
[05:03] <janimo> mdz, will sent the list
[05:03] <sladen> ogra: did anything happen on the screen in the previous 60 seconds?
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[05:03] <ogra> sladen, nope
[05:03] <Mithrandir> sladen: no, I can't.  Pulling adduser off the CD takes about 30 secs.
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[05:03] <sladen> ogra: then that's a major UI bad.
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[05:03] <ogra> i hade the same prob with very slow booting thin clients ...
[05:04] <ogra> the ui looks and feels ok ... it just times out at some point
[05:04] <janimo> mdz, the list is basically what apt-cache search xfce gives minus about 3 packages but will send a complete one
[05:04] <mdz> janimo: please do
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[05:05] <Kamion> UI bad> usplash could display some kind of moving UI element like a spinner to reassure the user that their computer hasn't crashed
[05:05] <sladen> Mithrandir: just executing adduser?
[05:05] <Kamion> and probably should
[05:05] <Mithrandir> sladen: yes.
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[05:05] <Kamion> sladen: it's just the first thing unlucky enough to have to pull in a bunch of stuff.
[05:06] <Mithrandir> sladen: it needs to pull perl+libs off the CD, and the file system isn't sorted very well.
[05:06] <ogra> Kamion, like suse does ? 
[05:06] <ogra> dancing penguins ? 
[05:06] <Kamion> ogra: I have no idea what SuSE does
[05:06] <Kamion> that's the bootloader
[05:06] <ogra> we could adapt that uglyness :)
[05:06] <Mithrandir> I think we should have dancing penguins in usplash
=== Mithrandir hides from Kamion 
[05:07] <ogra> lol
[05:07] <ogra> we could make some videos from the next "after conf party" and have dancing developers ;)
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[05:08] <sladen> ogra: there's one of mark in Asia looking like a penguin that ... could be animated...
=== ogra was rather thinking of something like this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/UbzGallery/CIMG0279.html
[05:09] <ogra> (animated indeed)
[05:10] <Robot101> the human pyramids we made in Helsinki at Debconf were coolest :P
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=== Keybuk smashes his mail server
[05:17] <Keybuk> thought I had it working again this morning, but oh no, today it's not delivering mailing lists
[05:17] <Keybuk> (that is, mailing list mails to me)
[05:19] <jdub> Keybuk: time to take out that djb anal probe
[05:20] <Keybuk> jdub: is pretty much entirely hardware problem
[05:20] <Keybuk> fucked RAM and drive, a happy server doth not make
[05:20] <tseng> jdub: DJB: We Rip RFCs a New One
[05:21] <jdub> tseng: More Bettar!
[05:21] <ogra> Keybuk, oh, fun... i had this after christmas ...
[05:22] <Mithrandir> ogra: can you try to build a package out of (bzr) http://people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/bzr/xresprobe/trunk/ ?
[05:22] <ogra> yup
[05:23] <Keybuk> ok... so if people could grab udev 0ubuntu10 and check that if they have multiple interfaces
[05:23] <Mithrandir> ogra: please do test it on your ppc too, it should work just as before
[05:23] <mdz> Keybuk: shall we unseed ifrename now?
[05:23] <ogra> Mithrandir, will do
[05:23] <Mithrandir> ogra: thanks
[05:24] <ogra> Mithrandir, it will take a moment, my line is stuffed with wgetting an iso ...
[05:24] <Keybuk> mdz: have committed the unseed myself; just needs an ubuntu-meta rebuild
[05:24] <Keybuk> though I deliberately made ifrename not do anything if the udev rule exists
[05:24] <mdz> Kamion: do we still have that powerpc unionfs bug or no?
[05:25] <ogra> mdz, ppc live was fine for me 1h ago ;)
[05:25] <ogra> and i didnt see any oopses 
[05:25] <Chipzz> Keybuk: where can I grab it? just did apt-get update && apt-get upgrade -y and it wasn't there...
[05:25] <ogra> (but usplash might have hidden them)
[05:25] <Chipzz> Keybuk: and yes I have up-to-date mirrors :P
[05:26] <Kamion> mdz: I have to defer to ogra on this one, I've had too much state on my powerpc to reboot it since I got back
[05:27] <Keybuk> Chipzz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/
[05:30] <mdz> Keybuk: hmm, ifrename still provides iftab(5)
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[05:30] <mdz> oh, no it doesn't. wrong machine
[05:32] <mdz> Keybuk: udev 0ubuntu10 DTRT on my laptop
[05:33] <Kamion> Riddell: does Qt have anything like Gtk's recursive main loops?
[05:33] <mdz> mdke: around?
[05:34] <Keybuk> mdz: yeah, it turns out that launchpad published the wrong upload; so 9 was DTRT on my laptop, but the wrong thing ended up in the archive
[05:34] <Kamion> Riddell: i.e. if you're a handler that's been called from Qt's main loop and you want to display something (let's say, ask a question) before returning, is there a way to call the main loop again until you get a response to whatever you want and then drop back to the original handler?
[05:34] <Keybuk> (I uploaded twice, by accident, and didn't get a REJECT)
[05:34] <Kamion> Keybuk: I filed a bug about that
[05:34] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-upload-and-queue/+bug/31038
[05:34] <Ubugtu> malone bug 31038 in launchpad-upload-and-queue "two accept messages for different udev 079-0ubuntu9 uploads" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[05:35] <Riddell> Kamion: model dialogues in Qt have their own main loop
[05:35] <Kamion> Keybuk: I think your second upload got accepted rather than the first?
[05:35] <Keybuk> Kamion: yeah, and the second had a half-finished patch in it
[05:35] <Riddell> so they can work even when the main main loop isn't running
[05:35] <Keybuk> (which I've now finished and uploaded as -10)
[05:35] <Kamion> Riddell: ok, so that's good for dialogs - what about if it's not a dialog?
[05:36] <Kamion> as in, if you want to wait until the user hits Next or something
[05:36] <Riddell> well, you can just disable or ignore anything else?
[05:37] <Kamion> Riddell: ok, let me back up a second
[05:37] <Kamion> Riddell: I'm trying to rearrange espresso.debconffilter so that it can be used without having to quit out of gtk's main loop to do so
[05:37] <Riddell> yep
[05:38] <Kamion> Riddell: so I've got it so that a handler function in debconffilter is called whenever a debconf-using coprocess (say, partman) calls a debconf function
[05:38] <ogra> Mithrandir, thunk.c:14:20: error: sys/io.h: No such file or directory
[05:38] <ogra> Mithrandir, missing dep on l-k-h ? 
[05:38] <Kamion> Riddell: sometimes that handler function needs to wait for the user to hit Next on the whole page before it can return an answer to the debconf-using process
[05:39] <Kamion> Riddell: I'm trying to work out if I can say in the handler function "wait until some other handler is called"
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[05:39] <Kamion> (say, the handler for the Next button)
[05:39] <Kamion> Riddell: or whether I have to invent a way for the handler to drop out and say "actually, just call me back later"
[05:39] <ogra> ah, no libc6-dev has it ...
[05:40] <Mithrandir> ogra: install build-essential. :-)
[05:40] <ogra> Mithrandir, thats in my pbuilder ...
[05:40] <Riddell> Kamion: is it possible to do a while (next not clicked) {processEvents()} ?
[05:40] <Mithrandir> libc6-dev: /usr/include/sys/io.h
[05:40] <Mithrandir> is what I have
[05:40] <ogra> Mithrandir, in your pbuilder? 
[05:40] <Diziet> Why oh why oh why doesn't apt provide an interface for `please satisfy this string which is like a Depends field' ?
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[05:40] <Kamion> Riddell: yeah, I suppose that works, although it seems that it would spin on CPU
[05:41] <Mithrandir> ogra: no, in my dapper system.
[05:41] <Kamion> (if no UI events are available)
[05:41] <ogra> Mithrandir, yup ...
[05:41] <Riddell> I think Qt is quite clever in how it handles that, I've had no problems doing that in the past
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[05:41] <Mithrandir> ogra: just build it. :-)
[05:41] <Kamion> Riddell: how? :-) processEvents() (or whatever) would surely return when no more events are available to be processed
[05:42] <mdke> mdz, email is better, I can't hang around irc right now
[05:42] <ogra> Mithrandir, no way ... same error ... even if i just run make
[05:42] <Kamion> "Processes pending events, for 3 seconds or until there are no more events to process, whichever is shorter."
[05:42] <Kamion> Oh, that explains it, I guess ;)
[05:43] <Mithrandir> ogra: remove libklibc-dev and reinstall libc6-dev.
[05:43] <Riddell> Kamion: it's just another loop, like the mainloop itself :)
[05:43] <Kamion> actually, no - if there are no events to process it sounds like that returns immediately
[05:43] <Kamion> Riddell: yeah, what I want is just another loop that I can cause to quit from a handler
[05:43] <ogra> Mithrandir, not installed 
[05:44] <Mithrandir> ogra: just reinstall libc6-dev, then.  It should surely be there.
[05:44] <Mithrandir> ogra: what kind of system is this?
[05:44] <ogra> ppc ibook
[05:44] <Kamion> aha, it *is* possible
[05:44] <Kamion> QEventLoop::enterLoop() and exitLoop()
[05:44] <Mithrandir> ogra: hmm, might only exist on i386 and amd64?
[05:44] <ogra> Mithrandir, nothing in locate either
[05:44] <ogra> ah
[05:44] <ogra> let me fire up my amd64 laptop
[05:45] <Kamion> so as long as I never quit the top-level main loop, I should be compatible with Qt
[05:45] <Mithrandir> so it needs build fixes for ppc, good to know.
[05:45] <Riddell> hmm, yes, espresso is teaching lots of new things about the qt eventloop
[05:46] <Kamion> I haven't quite worked out whether that's the best way though
[05:46] <Kamion> it's just a pain in the arse to make debconffilter totally reentrant
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[05:48] <Kamion> but if I can, I'll do that later
[05:49] <Kamion> Riddell: thanks though, would've taken me *ages* to confirm that dialogs could safely be called from handlers
[05:54] <Mithrandir> ogra: does it work for you?  You might need to run it from the console, I'm not sure.
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[05:54] <ogra> just copying it to amd64 ... wait a sec
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[05:58] <ogra> Mithrandir, breaks on libx86emu.a
[05:58] <Mithrandir> ogra: how breaks?
[05:59] <ogra> could not read symbols
[05:59] <ogra> file in wrong format
[05:59] <Mithrandir> do a make clean first
[05:59] <Mithrandir> ah, missing target in the clean target.
[05:59] <ogra> same
[06:00] <Mithrandir> just cd into x86emu and do make clean
[06:00] <ogra> ok
[06:01] <ogra> it works (kindof)
[06:02] <ogra> reports the right card but no modes above 1024x786
[06:02] <Mithrandir> hmm, guess your card sucks, then. :-P
[06:02] <Mithrandir> anyway, I'm off
[06:02] <ogra> the card is fine, the display sucks ;)
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[06:22] <dholbach> have a nice weekend
[06:23] <shaya> wondering if anyone has managed to get xgl/fglrx/dapper to play nice?
[06:23] <Keybuk> dholbach: how much dog-walking are you doing over yours?
[06:23] <dholbach> Keybuk: I'll do a lot of apt-get.org reviewing, I guess.
[06:23] <ogra> Keybuk, the dog has to pull the car to berlin ;)
[06:24] <Keybuk> heh, mine would probably do that; or at least try
[06:24] <Keybuk> it'd have to be a very small car though
[06:25] <ogra> mine would break down with a heart attack after 100m
[06:25] <ogra> even with a matchbox car
[06:26] <Keybuk> we should so be allowed to bring dogs to sprints :)
[06:26] <dholbach> :)
[06:26] <ogra> i couldnt bring mine ... he hardly can move :/
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[06:26] <ogra> but we could do a sprint here in summer ;)
[06:27] <Kinnison> siretart: ping?
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[06:27] <moew> Hello.
[06:27] <moew> Anyone around?
[06:28] <ogra> nope, 170 ppl hiding from you
[06:28] <Keybuk> * anyone :No such nick/channel
[06:28] <Keybuk> nope, don't think anyone is online right now
[06:28] <ogra> nah... its friday #
[06:28] <jsgotangco> saturday :)
[06:28] <moew> Well whoever is around please help: I'm having trouble installing an eclipse feature, in fact I'm having this problem installing anything in root dir b/c of the Ubuntu sudo thing. How do I go around it?
[06:29] <moew> Wow. The sarcasm quotient is high here.
[06:29] <Kamion> worst case you can always 'sudo -s', surely
[06:29] <moew> From?
[06:30] <Kamion> a shell
[06:30] <Kinnison> ogra: ping?
[06:31] <ogra> Kinnison, pong
[06:31] <shaya> or just sudo passwd root :)
[06:31] <Kinnison> ogra: Can you please join us in ##soyuz1.0 for a bit?
[06:31] <ogra> ## ?
[06:32] <moew> I'm saying: I'm running eclipse.
[06:32] <moew> I want to install a feature.
[06:32] <moew> It won't install, b/c of permissions in the eclipse directory.
[06:32] <moew> How would I go around it?
[06:32] <moew> I can't do sudo, b/c eclipse is installing via gui. I'd like to use the gui.
[06:32] <shaya> sudo eclipse
[06:32] <Keybuk> moew: I suggest you try #ubuntu ... this isn't a support channel
[06:32] <shaya> run eclipse as root
[06:33] <moew> Oh.
[06:33] <moew> Ok.
[06:33] <Kamion> ah, well either (a) eclipse needs to be educated that not everyone has permissions to write to it and have some provision for installing features in your home directory, (b) you'll need to run eclipse as root as shaya suggests
[06:33] <Kamion> (temporarily, in order to install the feature)
[06:33] <moew> Ok.
[06:33] <moew> Thank you.
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[06:34] <moew> I should've definitely thought of that.
[06:34] <shaya> Kamion: it took firefox a while to learn that
[06:34] <Kamion> Riddell: my espresso bzr tree's updated with the non-blocking debconffilter stuff now btw - but I haven't updated all component calls yet and I haven't gone on from there to make it only ever call the gtk main loop once
[06:34] <shaya> or was it still firebird or phoenix then?
[06:35] <Kamion> Riddell: still, it's an improvement, you might want to look at it and adapt your code, there're a few new callbacks in the frontend you need to implement
[06:35] <Riddell> Kamion: ok, will look at it
=== Kamion is off for the weekend, see y'all
[06:36] <Kinnison> see you Kamion, have a good one
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[06:39] <pef> hello
[06:42] <mdz> seb128: is it planned to include sound support in xchat-gnome?
[06:42] <seb128> mdz: according to upstream SVN has a sound plugin
[06:43] <seb128> but I've not looked what it does exactly
[06:43] <seb128> you just want to "play a sound on highlight"?
[06:44] <mdz> seb128: yes, a sound through gstreamer e.g. where it currently only rings the console bell
[06:44] <mdz> (which I don't always hear)
[06:44] <seb128> <cassidy> play a little sound when you receive a pv message or your nick is cited
[06:45] <seb128> <cassidy> seb128: using libgnome
[06:45] <seb128> mdz: the SVN does that
[06:45] <cassidy> seb128: i'm here too ;)
[06:45] <mdz> seb128: cool
[06:45] <seb128> ah right, I didn't notice :)
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[06:47] <ogra> mdz, i'll do the ltsp breezy-updates upload soon, to be a guineapig upload for Kinnison is that ok with you ? 
[06:48] <ogra> (he needs something to monitor goig to -updates )
[06:49] <mdz> ogra: just the dependency change?
[06:49] <mdz> if so, ok
[06:49] <ogra> yup
[06:50] <ogra> i thought its a good guinea pig ...
[06:50] <Kinnison> mdz: thanks
[06:50] <ogra> sadly bzr times out all the time ... :(
[06:50] <ogra> i'm tempted to just grab the source package 
[06:53] <elmo> is dapper going to have a background called 'warty-final-ubuntu.png' too? :-P
[06:53] <Amaranth_> lmao
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[06:54] <jdub> elmo: maybe :-)
[06:55] <ogra> hmm, whats the versioning policy for -updates with native packages ?
[06:55] <ogra> x.xx.1 ?
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[06:58] <elmo> is janew updating a table of death in the wiki to track specs like breezy, or is that in LP/somewhere else now?
[06:58] <seb128> lp
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[06:59] <elmo> seb128: thx
[06:59] <seb128> elmo: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable
[06:59] <seb128> np
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[07:26] <jdub> mjg59: what do you think about gamma fades for usplash up and down?
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[07:31] <mjg59> jdub: I think they'd possibly end up looking ugly
[07:32] <mjg59> jdub: But we *really* need flat colours for usplash. The dithering just looks nasty
[07:32] <jdub> mjg59: yeah, working on that
[07:32] <mjg59> I'll try taking a look at gamma fades this weekend and see if they can be done fast enough to be smooth?
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[07:32] <Treenaks> I did them back in my DOS days
[07:32] <Treenaks> leet demos etc.
[07:33] <ogra> mjg59, if you implement that, please make it configurable ... i have usplash running on 300Mhz 64MB thin clients at users ...
[07:33] <jdub> mjg59: is it harder doing them in usplash environment than X (cf. xscreensaver)
[07:33] <jdub> ogra: i bet those machines do X screensaver gamma fades without any problems
[07:33] <Treenaks> ogra: believe me, I've made fast fades at 640x480x8bit :)
[07:33] <mayco> we are in upstream version freeze right? does that mean that there will be no new version of notification-daemon in dapper? (because the new upstream version contains a X-close button, and has a much cooler theme ( http://www.galago-project.org/news/archives/2006/02/notificationdae_3.php ))
[07:33] <mjg59> jdub: I'm not sure. With luck it's just a matter of reprogramming the palette, but I'm not sure how much of an issue that is with vga16
[07:33] <Keybuk> isn't the fade-out the tricky bit, you have to fade-in to X, which enjoys a blank screen for several seconds
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[07:34] <ogra> jdub, yup ... even gksudo works reasionably bearable 
[07:34] <jdub> Keybuk: not sure it's worth fading out the boot up usplash
[07:34] <Treenaks> Keybuk: the fade-out is easy.. the fade-in to X is hard (because with mode switches, you lose palette state)
[07:34] <jdub> Keybuk: but worth it for shutdown usplash
[07:34] <mjg59> Fade out before cutting power/rebooting?
[07:34] <jdub> X starts up black anyway
[07:34] <Keybuk> the problem with that kind of fade-out is that you don't know your machine hasn't switched off  :)
[07:35] <Keybuk> it might be sitting there with an error message you've drawn in black
[07:35] <jdub> mjg59: bonus points for random, extremely rare millennium falcon failure noise
[07:35] <ogra> jdub, currently it starts blue :P
[07:35] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I think they mean 'Fade from X to black; then fade from black to usplash which is doing the shutdown stuff'
[07:35] <jdub> ogra: no, X starts black, then gdm starts, then during login it's blue
[07:35] <ogra> ah, yes ... 
[07:35] <Treenaks> jdub: yeah, and that's sucky ;)
=== ogra was testing liveCDs all day)
[07:35] <Treenaks> because my background is _brown_ :)
[07:35] <jdub> Treenaks: easy fix, seb'll get to it
[07:35] <Treenaks> jdub: whoo :)
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[07:36] <jdub> Treenaks: no, i meant fade out usplash right before shutdown
[07:36] <jdub> mostly interested in the very start of boot and very end of halt
[07:36] <Treenaks> jdub: then you don't know when your shutdown is complete, unless you happen to be watching the LEDs
[07:36] <ogra> jdub, we have no usplash at shutdown yet
[07:36] <jdub> ogra: suck! well, when that happens... etc.
[07:37] <Keybuk> ogra: dude, we have no shutdown yet
[07:37] <Keybuk> if you click the buttons in gnome, it just hangs
[07:37] <HiddenWolf> talking about shutdown, has it been slow for anyone else lately?
[07:37] <jdub> Keybuk: wfm
[07:37] <Treenaks> Keybuk: Sending the TERM signal....
[07:37] <Keybuk> jdub: doesn't for me
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[07:37] <Treenaks> [wait 5 minutes] 
[07:37] <Treenaks> reboots
[07:37] <Keybuk> Treenaks: *shrug* you're probably running something rude
[07:37] <Treenaks> that's what it does for me
[07:37] <jdub> Keybuk: with the gnome-session Thing, or the gnome-panel dialogues?
[07:37] <Keybuk> jdub: panel dialogs
[07:38] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: nah, I have a near default gnome session, and it hangs with term for a few minutes
[07:38] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: long enough to go to the bathroom and put on tea, actually.
[07:38] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: same :)  didn't say whether that rude thing was in the default install or not
[07:38] <HiddenWolf> :)
[07:38] <ogra> i'm still for magically saving states in the background and just force power off ;)
[07:39] <Keybuk> yeah, dapper+1 is time to remove the shutdown sequence
[07:39] <Keybuk> and just "sync disks, unmount, off"
[07:39] <jdub> Keybuk: was jsut about to ask that :)
[07:39] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: ehm, is that possible?
[07:39] <Treenaks> Keybuk: so 0s boot, AND 0s shutdown?
[07:39] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: sure, why not?
[07:39] <Treenaks> Keybuk: well, you mgiht want to tell some stuff to save their stuff :)
[07:39] <jdub> HiddenWolf: aside from very particular daemons, absolutely
[07:39] <Keybuk> Treenaks: like?
[07:39] <Keybuk> database and mail servers probably care, but apache certainly doesn't
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[07:40] <Treenaks> Keybuk: true..
[07:40] <Keybuk> and even those I'd contend should cope with the power going
[07:40] <Treenaks> Keybuk: some gconf cruft might
[07:40] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: hibernate and suspend tend to fail quite horribly for me, I've never seen it work in any os.
[07:40] <Keybuk> so should just restore from a crashed state on boot
[07:40] <jdub> Treenaks: desktop stuff would be logged out
[07:40] <ogra> HiddenWolf, Keybuk already took our /var/run away ... 
[07:40] <Treenaks> jdub: nicely, I hope :)
[07:40] <ogra> so just poweroff is nearer
[07:41] <jdub> yeah
[07:41] <jdub> once Keybuk is done
[07:41] <jdub> you won't even need to boot to turn your computer off
[07:41] <jdub> in fact
[07:41] <Treenaks> But I want Xgl shiny FIRST!
[07:41] <jdub> you won't be able to
[07:41] <jdub> it will just be off
[07:41] <jdub> by default
[07:41] <ogra> dapper+1 will be so much fun :)
[07:41] <jdub> for eternity
[07:41] <Treenaks> ogra: yeah ;)
[07:41] <Keybuk> jdub: then we won't need Malone ;)
[07:41] <jdub> Keybuk: our work here is done.
[07:41] <Treenaks> Keybuk: and you can keep the diffs VERY small ;)
[07:42] <ogra> cool
[07:43] <HiddenWolf> *chuckle* I saw that someone got xgl working. With a black background and white windows. Some X bug somewhere, apparantly. :)
[07:43] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: enough time to fix that before dapper+1
[07:44] <Keybuk> I want X to go away and die
[07:44] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks: I'm guessing it'll take a tad longer, driver shit and such
[07:44] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: I hope it'll at least be an _option_ in dapper+1
[07:45] <Keybuk> it's a huge monolithic lump of crud that serves simply to get between you and the hardware you need to talk to
[07:45] <Treenaks> Keybuk: sure, but it LOOK~S cool
[07:45] <Treenaks> s/~//
[07:45] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: heh, that's putting it crudely
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[07:46] <Keybuk> wouldn't it be nice if you just had GL ttys
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[07:46] <shaya> anyone understand dpkg-divert here?
[07:47] <jdub> Keybuk can
[07:47] <jdub> he also enjoys it
[07:47] <jdub> almost as much as "my pet goat"
[07:47] <jdub> tell us a story, uncle Keybuk!
[07:48] <Keybuk> Keybuk is too busy debating the relative merits of the local takeaway houses
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[07:51] <mayco> we are in upstream version freeze right? does that mean that there will be no new version of notification-daemon in dapper?
[07:51] <mayco> (because the new upstream version contains a X-close button, and has a much better theme ( http://www.galago-project.org/news/archives/2006/02/notificationdae_3.php ))
[07:51] <slomo_> mayco: mvo is work on it afaik
[07:51] <mayco> oke, thanks
[07:52] <mvo> mayco: it's in dapper already
[07:53] <Burgwork> mayco, close buttons are a bad idea
[07:53] <HiddenWolf> Burgwork: notifications had them for ages.
[07:53] <HiddenWolf> and clicking on them closes as well
[07:53] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, yes, but it forces pepole to hit a smaller target
[07:54] <slomo_> mvo: it is? hmm... i only have 0.3.2-0ubuntu1 and the one on the pictures is 0.3.4
[07:54] <HiddenWolf> Burgwork: people might complain that there is no way to close it - if they don't find out that clicking on the notification itself will close it too 
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[07:55] <Keybuk> it doesn't
[07:55] <Keybuk> it makes them aim at a smaller target, but doesn't penalise them if they miss
[07:55] <Keybuk> while making it obvious they can be closed/vanished
[07:55] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk is obviously better with words than I am. :)
[07:55] <Burgwork> hmm. Not really something worth losing sleep over
[07:56] <mvo> slomo_: right, strange. I uploaded it a couple of days ago
[07:56] <slomo_> mvo: hm, upload it again ;)
[07:57] <mvo> slomo_: yep, my changelog was probably too long ;)
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[08:01] <Keybuk> mvo: can't see it on -changes
[08:01] <slomo_> mvo: do you know if the dbus interface has changed between 0.3.2 and 0.3.4?
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[08:02] <sladen> jdub: gamma fades work for vga16 but not on vesa consoles (the new palette colour isn't used until the pixel is actually redrawn...)
[08:02] <mvo> Keybuk: noticed that as well, I apparently haven't got a confirm mail. but my upload file said all fine. I tried again
[08:02] <mvo> slomo_: I don't think it has
[08:03] <Keybuk> mvo: lost in launchpad?
[08:03] <sladen> jdub: it doesn't even need usplash changing, it can be done as a 99 script that sends the correct escape sequence to the console
[08:03] <mvo> Keybuk: probably :)
[08:03] <mdke> mjg59, about that problem with the computer shutting down when the screen blanks, i've had a look and it appears to be going to sleep after a few minutes, even on AC power. Sleep doesn't work on that machine, so it doesn't come back again
[08:03] <slomo_> mvo: ok, good :) so i don't need to patch s-d-a again ;)
[08:04] <mjg59> mdke: Hrm. Anything in the g-p-m preferences?
[08:04] <mdke> mjg59, i'll boot it up again and have a look
[08:04] <mdke> it should be all default tho
[08:04] <mvo> slomo_: what was s-d-a again :) ?
[08:04] <slomo_> mvo: service-discovery-applet
[08:05] <mvo> slomo_: ah :) dosn't that one speak to n-d via libnotify?
[08:06] <slomo_> mvo: nope... via dbus as there are afaik no python bindings for libnotify
[08:06] <mvo> slomo_: ah, right. there has been talk about writing some, but noone steped up yet
[08:06] <slomo_> using it with dbus is easy enough in python imho :)
[08:07] <mdke> mjg59, AC: computer_sleep=never, display_sleep=30min, BATT: computer_sleep:20mins, display_sleep:5mins. 
[08:08] <mvo> slomo_: the advantage of writing a wrapper is that if protocol changes happen it only needs to be fixed in a single place. but it's really not that much of a issue currently
[08:10] <mdke> mjg59, i'll stick it in a bug report. Off to dinner now, but let me know what I can usefully include in the bug
[08:10] <slomo_> mvo: well... i see no reason why the dbus API should change and the libnotify API doesn't ;)
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[08:33] <slomo_> mvo: still no n-d on -changes... or didn't you retry it yet?
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[08:41] <mvo> slomo_: I uploaded it 30min ago
[08:41] <mvo> very strange
[08:41] <slomo_> interesting...
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[08:42] <slomo_> mvo: hmm... can you upload it somewhere else? let me try to sign and upload it
[08:43] <mvo> slomo_: I'll ask the launchpad team about it first, maybe it's some real bug
[08:51] <mdke> mdz, i'm around now if you are still here
[08:52] <mdz> mdke: I wanted to chat about the flash demo
[08:52] <mdke> me too
[08:52] <mdz> we're on a very tight timetable and the content developers need to start immediately if we're going to get this done in time
[08:52] <mdke> right, they said
[08:53] <mdke> I've started putting down some rough ideas today, I wanted to clarify what you are looking for quickly
[08:53] <mdke> mdz, first up, is the demo going to be the same for ubuntu and kubuntu?
[08:53] <mdz> mdke: we only have time for one demo, so we'll do ubuntu
[08:54] <mdke> so we can do gnome-specific things
[08:54] <mdke> ok
[08:54] <mdz> were you CCed on Mark's email with his requirements?
[08:54] <mdke> yes
[08:54] <mdz> ok
[08:54] <mdke> i copied them to a wiki page and started brainstorming
=== mdke gets url
[08:55] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu?action=show
[08:55] <mdz> this looks great
[08:55] <mdke> i was wondering whether to send out some calls for ideas to the community in general, or just to finish that off
[08:55] <mdke> I asked jeff to have a look at it
[08:55] <mdz> we can't wait for a lot of feedback
[08:55] <mdke> yeah, i figured
[08:55] <mdz> but certainly it's welcome
[08:56] <mdz> I think this is enough of a starting point that we can get the flash guys going
[08:56] <mdke> ok the last thing was, do we just get some words together, then pass it on to them?
[08:56] <mdz> we need to finalize, say, 5 items and send them off to them
[08:56] <mdz> we need a sort of storyboard for each
[08:56] <mdz> e.g., screenshot of the application showing this and that action
[08:56] <mdz> ideally you could send them existing screenshots from the docs
[08:57] <mdke> we don't have many screenshots tbh
[08:57] <mdke> certainly none that are update to dapper gui
[08:57] <mdz> I can show them how to make screenshots in vmware or something
[08:58] <mdke> ok, so on that page I should include instructions about how to do the described feature? Like "open x prog, do this, etc"?
[08:58] <mdz> but they will need to know what actions they should be demonstrating
[08:58] <mdz> yes, that would be a great help
[08:58] <mdke> right, ok
[08:58] <mdke> last last thing.
[08:58] <mdke> is the gui frozen now?
[08:58] <mdke> if not, we should probably try to identify things for them to start on which won't change
[08:59] <mdke> if the artwork is going to change, it will make things a bit tricky
[08:59] <Burgwork> gai might be a good starting point
[08:59] <mdz> it's not frozen until UI freeze
[08:59] <mdz> the artwork will definitely change
[08:59] <mdke> yeah
[08:59] <mdz> mdke,Burgwork: what time zones are you guys in?
[08:59] <mdke> how are we going to handle that?
[08:59] <mdke> utc +0
[08:59] <Burgwork> mdz, same as you
[09:00] <mdz> would you mind having a phone call with todd/bryan?
[09:00] <mdke> not at all, he has both our numbers now
[09:00] <mdz> I think it would greatly accelerate things if we had a conference call and talked this out as a group
[09:00] <mdz> ok
[09:00] <mdz> and mine
[09:00] <mdz> please email some possible times for early next week
[09:00] <mdke> ok, sure
[09:01] <mdz> and we'll do that
[09:01] <mdke> Burgwork, do you wanna get together over the weekend and build up that wiki page?
[09:01] <Burgwork> mdz, I already spoke with bryan yesterday. He and I are going to chat some more today
[09:01] <mdz> bryan may be able to talk with you over the weekend, though I'll be unavailable
[09:01] <mdz> Burgwork: oh, good
[09:01] <Burgwork> mdke, sure, but we have to plan now, as I don't know if I will have internet at home or not
[09:02] <mdke> Burgwork, sure thing, I'll be around on/off for the next few hours
[09:02] <mdz> mdke: the translations item should highlight help->translate
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[09:02] <mdz> or maybe break it into two, one about the language selector and one about rosetta
[09:02] <mdke> right, yeah.
[09:02] <Burgwork> we want about 10 animations?
[09:03] <mdke> that's the idea
[09:03] <Burgwork> mdz, how long is espresso expected to take?
[09:03] <Burgwork> the actual install
[09:03] <Burgwork> also, how big are the animations going to be?
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[09:04] <mdz> Burgwork: unknown as yet; Kamion will have the best estimate
[09:05] <mdz> probably on the order of 10 or 15 minutes?
[09:05] <Burgwork> ok, so 10 animations at a minute and a half seems reasonable
[09:05] <mdz> big as in pixels, or bytes?
[09:05] <Burgwork> pixels
[09:05] <mdz> they'll make them whatever size we want, I imagine
[09:05] <mdz> I think a minute is probably too long for most of the segments; we should keep them short and snapy
[09:06] <mdz> and we can play as many as will fit during the installation
[09:06] <Burgwork> however it is somewhat constrained by the actual screen size and what else needs to be displayed
=== mdke thinks the tech guys can see to that, but we need to get the subject matter sorted asap
[09:07] <Burgwork> the actual size of the final animation does change what we put into it, imo
[09:07] <mdz> say 320x240
[09:08] <Burgwork> ok good
[09:08] <mdke> Burgwork, how about you have a go at that wiki page in the next few hours, then I'll take a look this evening and try and sort out some storyboarding, since I'll have some time tomorrow/sunday
[09:09] <Burgwork> mdke, already editing
[09:09] <mdke> great stuff
[09:09] <mdke> ok I'll be back in a bit then
[09:09] <mdke> thanks Burgwork/mdz
[09:10] <mdz> thanks
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[09:11] <Burgwork> does rb do cd burning now?
[09:11] <HiddenWolf> Burgwork: it should open serpentine
[09:12] <Burgwork> HiddenWolf, ah, ok
[09:12] <HiddenWolf> That, or nautilus
[09:13] <HiddenWolf> Used to be serpentine, now looks like nautilus
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[09:27] <mvo> slomo_: notification-daemon finally uploaded, my upload was broken, but lp didn't send a mail about that. so now I uploaded a fixed version and lp will send mails about this in the future
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[09:27] <slomo_> mvo: ok, cool :)
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[09:38] <Burgwork> mvo, you still awake?
[09:38] <mvo> Burgwork: yes
[09:38] <Burgwork> mvo, where is gai with regards to its UI?
[09:38] <zyga> mvo: new n-d?
[09:38] <zyga> mvo: the one from galaga/
[09:39] <mvo> zyga: yes
[09:39] <mvo> Burgwork: unless I get a override by the UI team I think the gui is pretty much what we want for dapper
[09:40] <Burgwork> mvo, ok
[09:41] <mvo> Burgwork: is this about the "woah, we are cool" project :) ?
[09:41] <Burgwork> mvo, the flash one? yes
[09:42] <mvo> Burgwork: nice :) I need to ask mpt and mark for review of the new gui, but the only change that we probably get is a All category on the left
[09:43] <mdke> will g-a-i be able to install all programs, or just some?
[09:43] <mvo> mdke: what do you mean with that :) ? It will be able to install everything that it displays
[09:43] <mdke> mvo, i mean, will it be able to display everything in the archive, or just some things?
[09:44] <mdke> for example, will I be able to install gstreamer plugins
[09:46] <mvo> mdke: no, it will only display stuff with a desktop file currently
[09:47] <Burgwork> mdke, gstreamer is covered by https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/CommonInstallHook
[09:48] <mdke> mvo, and will that improve by april?
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[09:48] <Burgwork> mdke, no
[09:49] <mdke> :(
[09:49] <mdke> that's a shame, from a documentation perspective it's tricky: we have to say "to install X, open Y program, do a search, if you can't find it, open Z program"
[09:49] <Burgwork> ya
[09:50] <Burgwork> the idea with commondesktop hooks it to make the documentation useless
[09:50] <Burgwork> because it will just install it
[09:50] <mdke> then the user says "why on earth don't I just use Z program"
[09:51] <Burgwork> if they use mplayer,etc?
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[09:52] <mdke> i mean, the user will say "if there is a program which can install anything, and one which can't, why shouldn't I just use the first one all the time instead of looking in both places?"
[09:53] <Burgwork> yes, a few users will say that
[09:53] <Burgwork> most will be happy to just have it install automatically
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[09:53] <mdke> you can't install everything automatically tho. But if that is implemented it would be an improvement, yeah
[09:54] <Burgwork> yes, for dapper we are still stuck
=== mdke plays with the idea of just using synaptic in documentation
[09:54] <mvo> mdke: it's a tricky problem. if we want to display everything, we need to tell the user the concept of packages and dependencies
[09:55] <mdke> mvo, how about not displaying everything, but having everything accessible in the search option
[09:55] <mdke> so, if a user reads the documentation and sees he needs gstreamer-plugins-bad, he can search for it and install it
[09:55] <mdke> even though it isn't in the categories on the left
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[09:57] <mvo> mdke: in our current g-a-i a search is really a filter (like in epiphanys bookmarks or in rythmbox, so that won't work unfortunately
[09:58] <mvo> I agree with you that it's supoptimal to have two applications for the same task
[09:58] <netdur> did you set epyphany as default browser for dapper?
=== mdke nods
[09:58] <mdke> netdur, yes
[09:58] <mdke> netdur, argh, I mean, I personally did
[09:58] <mdke> ubuntu didn't
[09:58] <mvo> mdke: for selected packages (like the gstreamer stuff), we could add a pseudo package for that
[09:58] <mdke> mvo, the search can't be expanded, maybe for dapper+1?
[09:59] <netdur> mdke, would be wise choose for ubuntu too!
[09:59] <Amaranth> ubuntu won't, afaik
[09:59] <netdur> I know
[09:59] <mdke> netdur, yeah
[09:59] <mdke> mvo, problem is, I was just using gstreamer as an example, there must be loads of things that a user might look for
[09:59] <mvo> mdke: I think so, yes. we'll switch to smart most likely and that means we need to rework our tools anyway
[09:59] <mvo> mdke: *nod*
[10:00] <mdke> mvo, what do you think we should suggest to users for documentation? use synaptic all the time, or use gai, then try synaptic if they don't find it?
[10:01] <Amaranth> switch to smart?
[10:02] <HiddenWolf> mdke: gai is/was quite limited, introduce them to searching in synaptic would be my suggestion
[10:02] <mdke> mvo, by the way, gai goes to sleep when I try searching for "gstreamer", have you got a bug like that already?
[10:03] <mvo> mdke: did you typed it into the search field and pressed enter?
[10:03] <mdke> yes
[10:03] <HiddenWolf> mvo: wow, i take it back
[10:03] <HiddenWolf> gai looks good
[10:03] <mvo> mdke: yes, known. I'll upload a fixed version in a couple of minutes
[10:03] <mdke> yeah the look is awesome now
[10:03] <mdke> mvo, heh, great service, thanks
[10:04] <HiddenWolf> mvo: while searching the interface should not go grey
[10:04] <mvo> HiddenWolf: thanks :)
[10:04] <mdke> mvo, any thoughts on the documentation question?
[10:04] <mvo> mdke: it's a hard one. I *think* you should point them to synaptic for the "complicated" stuff
[10:05] <mvo> I mean, g-a-i should be pretty self-explaining
[10:05] <mdke> ok, i think we'll have to do that
[10:05] <mvo> it has very few buttons nowdaydays
[10:05] <HiddenWolf> mdke: gai invites to click on the sections
[10:05] <mdke> each thing to install should say whether to install it with gai or synaptic
[10:05] <HiddenWolf> mdke: they might be discouraged if they don't find it in the right section or something.
[10:05] <mdke> it's a lot of work to check them all though
[10:05] <mvo> mdke: you mean, you search, it finds gstreamer-bad and says it should be installed with synaptic?
[10:06] <mvo> mdke: or do you mean in the current documentation?
[10:06] <mvo> mdke: where is that located?
[10:06] <mdke> i mean in the documentation
[10:06] <mdke> System -> Help -> Ubuntu Desktop Guide
[10:06] <mdke> we need to upload a new version of that, it's a bit out of date with our repo
[10:07] <mdke> up to date version is at http://doc.ubuntu.com
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[10:08] <mvo> mdke: ok, thanks. what do you think about making the stuff that is in the guide available via g-a-i ? the codecs etc? 
[10:09] <mdke> mvo, we could do some of the major stuff, that would rock
[10:09] <mvo> mdke: could you please file a bug, wishlist but with dapper as target and assign it to me? that would be great
[10:09] <mdke> okies
[10:09] <mdke> mvo, while I'm at it, another bug is that the entry in the menu for gai is too long and can't be read
[10:09] <mvo> and please point to the documentation in it too :)
[10:10] <Burgwork> mvo, can you have a .desktop file that doesn't display any menu entry
[10:10] <mvo> Burgwork: it will need some tweaks in the code, currently not
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[10:10] <Burgwork> mvo, cause they you could install a .desktop file in the codecs
[10:11] <mvo> Burgwork: yeah, as I said, it will need some tweaking in the code, but shouldn't be too hard. I will probably need some discussion how to do it in the gui
[10:12] <Burgwork> I think it is too late to do this kind of installation for dapper
=== mdke tends to agree
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[10:14] <mdke> if anyone with main upload access and 3 spare minutes could fix bug 30694, that would also be lovely
[10:14] <Ubugtu> malone bug 30694 in xmms "unfriendly menu entry for XMMS" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30694
[10:15] <Burgwork> why is xmms in main?
[10:15] <Amaranth> yeah, that doesn't seem to make sense
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=== mdke has no idea either
[10:16] <mdke> i originally just assumed it was in universe
[10:16] <dw_> anyone with any idea on whether the current daily is ok?
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[10:20] <Burgwork> nothing in seeds or xmms changelog about why it is in main
[10:21] <mvo> Burgwork: it is there since warty :)
[10:21] <mdke> lol, my default editor appears to be vi, rather than nano as it was before
[10:21] <mvo> there was some talk about demoting it
[10:21] <Burgwork> yes
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[10:23] <mvo> Burgwork: because of the new code that may break etc?
[10:23] <Burgwork> mvo, yes, and feature freeze is just around the corner
[10:23] <Burgwork> plus mdz would take my head off if I convinced you to do that over your other dapper goals
[10:25] <mvo> yeah, agreed. it's this "it can't be hard to add and is so nice" syndrom. but I should overcome it I think
[10:25] <mvo> anyway, bedtime for me
[10:25] <mdke> night mvo
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[10:26] <mvo> night everyone 
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[10:59] <Mirv> hi.. are update-manager and gnome-app-install going to be back at the cvs.gnome.org anytime soon? are the sources currently in any svn/cvs?
[11:00] <Burgwork> Mirv, they are currently in bzr
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[11:08] <Mirv> Burgwork: that is.. Bazaar-NG? sorry, but how do I access the source? addresses like https://launchpad.net/products/gnome-app-install just point to the gnome.org cvs
[11:10] <sloncho> hi. as it's related to the kernel, and looks like noone on ubuntu channel can help: how do I prevent a kernel module from loading (pcnet32). I added it in /etc/hotplug/blacklist, I deleted pcnet32.ko from all instances under /lib/modules, and still when I boot, it is loaded. I do not know why.
[11:12] <Burgwork> Mirv, bzr is bazaar-ng. baz is bazaar 1
[11:13] <Mirv> okay via https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gnome-app-install I can at least access the latest releases, though still no sight of an actual repository
[11:13] <Burgwork> email ubuntu-desktop and ask about it and ask mvo to fix it
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[11:14] <Mirv> okay, so basically it's just that mvo is developing furiously and has not had a time to set up a repository access? fine for me, it's just hard to find the latest code
[11:15] <Burgwork> no, it is that the bzr repos are not listing on lp
[11:15] <Burgwork> they exist somewhere
[11:15] <Mirv> ah, ok.
[11:15] <Mirv> I will send an e-mail to the list
[11:15] <Burgwork> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/
[11:15] <Burgwork> Mirv, ^
[11:17] <Mirv> Burgwork: interesting. thanks anyway for your help.
[11:20] <Burgwork> Mirv, that should be the lastest bzr sources
[11:28] <Mirv> though not for update-notifier
[11:28] <Mirv> oh, I didn't ask about it yet :) anyway, it was the third on my list.
[11:28] <Mirv> https://oops.ghostprotocols.net/repos/upgrade-notifier/ has something updated this year, but not the most recent
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[11:49] <jdong> ouch.... that kernel update hurt
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[11:54] <Amaranth> *boggle*
[11:54] <Mirv> oh it is the most recent
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