[12:42] <mhz> neurogeek: holas
[12:42] <mhz> neurogeek: you are testing hurd??
[03:15] <ulinskie> hi ogra 
[03:15] <ulinskie> Hello people
[03:59] <mhz_dinner> re
[04:03] <MotherLUG> Hello All :D
[04:04] <MotherLUG> I had a look at the edubuntu live CD this morning and I was wondering is there a particular place and way where I can log bugs I have found?
[04:18] <mhz> MotherLUG: yup
[04:18] <mhz> http://launchpad.net
[04:18] <MotherLUG> I just got there
[04:18] <MotherLUG> and was searching
[04:20] <MotherLUG> mhz, Is there anywhere in particular that I need to go at launchpad?
[04:20] <MotherLUG> sorry if I'm a PITA, this is all new to me
[04:20] <MotherLUG> and I mostly don't want to stuff up
[04:25] <mhz> MotherLUG: i'll check
[04:26] <mhz> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug
[04:26] <mhz> MotherLUG: that url
[04:26] <mhz> neurogeek: hi
[04:27] <neurogeek> mhz, hello!!
[04:27] <mhz> neurogeek: nice to see ya
[04:49] <MotherLUG> mhz, Thankyou for your help
[04:49] <mhz> MotherLUG: your welcome. Thx for submitting bugs
[04:50] <mhz> that is one KEY contribution to improve development quality
[04:58] <ulinskie> mhz, I was trying to modify my theme in the ubuntu wiki, but it is not functioning, then everytime I do it, my computer hangs 
[04:58] <mhz> ulinskie: ooo
[04:59] <mhz> that's weired
[04:59] <mhz> ulinskie: you do it from userPreferences?
[05:01] <ulinskie> mhz, yes I did it from UserPreferences
[05:01] <ulinskie> mhz, I tried doing it for at elast 6 times
[05:08] <mhz> ulinskie: what theme are you selecting?
[05:22] <ulinskie> hello mhz sorry my computer hanged up on me, 
[05:22] <ulinskie> mhz, were u able to answer my query?
[05:23] <mhz> ulinskie: what theme are you selecting?
[05:24] <mhz> try now
[05:24] <ulinskie> edubuntu
[07:46] <Godfather85> hi from Russia!
[07:47] <Godfather85> that differenses: Ubuntu & EdUbuntu?
[10:49] <ulinskie> hello can anybody help me regarding the changing the theme in the wiki thru UserPreferences, mine always says password does not match even if it is already correct
[11:15] <jsgotangco> ulinskie, it doesn't happen to my account
[11:16] <ulinskie> jsgotangco, what theme r u using?
[11:16] <jsgotangco> edubuntu
[11:17] <ulinskie> hmm.. do u have the power to reset my password?
[11:17] <jsgotangco> nope
[11:17] <ulinskie> I have used in for loggin in
[11:18] <ulinskie> but it does not work when I modify my user preferences
[11:18] <ulinskie> that'sweird
[11:18] <jsgotangco> wiki password is based on your LP account
[11:21] <ulinskie> wait I'll try again in another machine
[11:27] <ulinskie> jsgotangco, still not working
[11:28] <ulinskie> jsgotangco, I have already reset my password
[11:28] <ulinskie> hmm..this is strange
[11:28] <jsgotangco> dunno
[11:28] <jsgotangco> try asking #launchpad
[11:28] <ulinskie> ok  thanks
[11:43] <ulinskie> jsgotangco, its a bug 
[11:45] <jsgotangco> :)
[11:58] <Flosoft> ogra: u there?
[01:20] <ogra> Flosoft, yes, i am now :)
[01:29] <Flosoft> ah ... check  the ltsp channel ogra
[01:29] <ogra> yes, i saw that ... 
[01:30] <ogra> what exactly do you mean ? 
[01:30] <ogra> you want a windown desktop and do an rdp connection to a linux server ?
[01:30] <jsgotangco> cheers
[01:30] <Flosoft> yes
[01:30] <Flosoft> as VNC doesn't start a new Session it is not the thing I need
[01:30] <ogra> hmm, never played with that ... but it should be possible ... linux speaks rdp ...
[01:31] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:31] <jsgotangco> i've done reverse though
[01:31] <ogra> vnc *can* start a new session ... try xvnc on gdm ...
[01:31] <jsgotangco> linux desktop -> windows server
[01:31] <jsgotangco> (rdp)
[01:31] <Flosoft> well I need: XP Home >>> Kubuntu Breezy
[01:32] <ogra> then connect to this via vnc and log in through the exported gdm ... that should work
[01:32] <ogra> (or kdm even)
[01:32] <Flosoft> hmmm how do I set this up?
[01:32] <Flosoft> because it should also adapt the resolution etc.
[01:33] <ogra> xvnc has the option to connect to the running X server ... just make KDM start and attach xvnc to it ...
[01:33] <ogra> (its really just a theory, but i guess it can work)
[01:33] <Flosoft> is that XDMCP?
[01:33] <ogra> nope, thats vnc then
[01:33] <ogra> xdmcp means you run kdm on the client and connect through X network transport 
[01:34] <Flosoft> so that is impossible for windows?
[01:34] <jsgotangco> oh good udev update
[01:34] <ogra> xdmcp ? 
[01:34] <Flosoft> yes
[01:35] <ogra> i think there are commercial X servers like hummingbird that enable you to do that ...
[01:35] <ogra> but its pretty expansive 
[01:35] <ogra> *expensive 
[01:35] <Flosoft> crap
[01:35] <ogra> >$500 a seat
[01:36] <ogra> the vnc solution would be a compromise ...
[01:36] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[01:36] <ogra> but would indeed be slower ...
[01:36] <Flosoft> damn ...
[01:36] <ogra> freenx could probably help here, i never tried it since we cant include it yet 
[01:37] <Flosoft> but freenx isn't yet in Breezy or dapper?
[01:37] <ogra> thats what i wrote ...
[01:38] <Flosoft> :(
[01:38] <ogra> it ships its own crippled version of X libs ... we cant support that ...
[01:38] <ogra> there are efforts going on to make it work with the Xlib from the distro, but thats not done yet ... nomachine doesnt want to take out the proprietary parts ...
[01:40] <Flosoft> and how do I setup an Image Server? So that Clients in the network boot an Linux image from the Server?
[01:41] <ogra> thats done by default in edubuntu ...
[01:41] <Flosoft> I use Kubuntu :S
[01:41] <ogra> you need a dhcp server that answers to PXE requests first ...
[01:42] <ogra> the setup of the dhcp server points the client to a tftp server (mostly the same machine) 
[01:42] <ogra> the tftp server provides a boot image to the client which then gets booted ...
[01:43] <ogra> the bootimage mounts / via naf from an nfs server (as well mostly the same machine)
[01:43] <ogra> s/naf/nfs/
[01:43] <ogra> (what am i typing ... tsk)
[01:43] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:44] <jsgotangco> doesn't that need netboot.gz?
[01:44] <ogra> the essential bit is the dhcp server 
[01:44] <Flosoft> hmmm ... well I use my router as dhcp :S
[01:44] <ogra> which has all the info for the client ... (where the tftp server is, where to mount nfs from etc)
[01:45] <jsgotangco> hrmmm
[01:45] <jsgotangco> this one?
[01:45] <jsgotangco> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/dapper/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/
[01:45] <jsgotangco> ?
[01:45] <ogra> jsgotangco, thats a installer image ...
[01:45] <jsgotangco> (for the installer that is)
[01:46] <ogra> ltsp-server-standalone has all you need ...
[01:46] <jsgotangco> but you need the same backend right? (dhcpd, tftpd)
[01:46] <ogra> yup
[01:46] <jsgotangco> i guess the dhcpd has a directive what to boot i guess
[01:48] <ogra> nope, it only points the client to the tftpserver ...
[01:49] <jsgotangco> and the tftpd has the image?
[01:49] <ogra> yup ...
[01:50] <ogra> a PXE image that points to the kernel and initramfs ...
[01:50] <ogra> (which are also serverd by the tftpserver)
[01:50] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:50] <jsgotangco> can i ask something
[01:50] <jsgotangco> what's the difference between initrd.gz and initramfs?
[01:50] <ogra> nope, youre not allowed :P
[01:51] <ogra> initrd only hold the modules dir ... initramfs is a minimal system that contains scripts, binarys and the modules ... way more flexible ...
[01:52] <jsgotangco> but initramfs is bigger right?
[01:52] <ogra> yup
[01:52] <ogra> a bit 
[01:52] <jsgotangco> the cd installer still uses initrd.gz
[01:52] <ogra> nope
[01:52] <jsgotangco> huh?
[01:52] <ogra> its initramfs as well ... 
[01:53] <jsgotangco> okay our installation manual is way outdated...
[01:53] <ogra> look in your /boot dir 
[01:53] <jsgotangco> (not surprising)
[01:53] <ogra> initramfs images are called initrd.img ...
[01:53] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:53] <ogra> (historically based i think)
[01:53] <jsgotangco> its 6.2MB
[01:54] <jsgotangco> the kernel is 1.3 but i guess that is compressed
[01:54] <ogra> a netboot image only needs to be 3MB though
[01:54] <jsgotangco> hmm interesting
[01:54] <ogra> but the installer initramfs is somewhat special ...
[01:55] <ogra> it has some extra parts (dont ask which, thats kamion land)
[01:55] <ogra> recent ltsp initramfs netboot images shouldnt be greater than 4MB ...
[01:55] <ogra> (else i've failed ;) )
[01:55] <jsgotangco> hmm i'm getting it better now
[01:56] <jsgotangco> before i thought it was voodoo
[01:56] <ogra> the netboot initramfs only needs the network drivers, until recently it shipped everything ...
[01:56] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[01:57] <jsgotangco> but what about the vga module or whatever graphics it needs?
[01:57] <ogra> thats in the kernel ...
[01:57] <ogra> vga16 i think
[01:58] <jsgotangco> ahh
[01:59] <jsgotangco> this is quite interesting...
[02:01] <jsgotangco> ahh need to reboot :/
[02:01] <jsgotangco> brb
[02:23] <Yagisan> G'day All
[02:25] <jsgotangco> hi
[02:25] <Yagisan> hey jsgotangco what's up
[02:27] <Yagisan> so odd - when the first thing I said was - I'll correct it.
[02:27] <jsgotangco> haha
[02:27] <Yagisan> even sent a free service voucher to them
[02:27] <Yagisan> yet still not happy. Can't please everyone it seems
[02:30] <Yagisan> so hows your weekend jsgotangco
[02:30] <Yagisan> ?
[02:35] <Yagisan> Is it just me, or is evolution + spamassassin unable to block spam sent as images ?
[02:36] <jsgotangco> oh i just declined a speaking stint at a local university because they wanted to stage a debate with people from MS
[02:36] <jsgotangco> good thing the MS folks declined too
[02:40] <ogra> Yagisan, you have german customers ? thats sounds way to german to play in .au :)
[02:42] <Yagisan> ogra: no German customers yet. Would you like to be the first ? :)
[02:42] <ogra> heh, phear me if i sue you for a 20 cent difference in a bill :P
[02:42] <Yagisan> ogra: BTW why too german ?
[02:43] <ogra> because i saw people doing that ^^^ ...
[02:43] <ogra> and its very typical for us :(
[02:44] <ogra> germans are doctrinarires
[02:44] <ogra> (at least the majority)
[02:45] <Yagisan> ogra: They complained about the cost of a weekend call out. IE it cost me $20 to get there and back (they *are* almost an hour away from me) and I charged them at cost. Next time, they can pay before I turn up on the weekend
[02:47] <ogra> likely
[02:51] <Yagisan> hmm - perhaps I should buy a "cluebat" in the sporting goods section to help remind customers that weekends are not free
[02:51] <ogra> :)
[02:54] <Yagisan> new terms & conditions. If on a weekend/public holiday/after hours and you need Yagisan, first open your wallet. Do you have at least $20 - if so take all of it out and place in an envelope with Yagisan written on it. Now call Yagisan, when he arrives - hand envelope (and contents) to him. Now describe your problem.
[02:55] <Yagisan> marvel at how he now recovers your login/internet/whatever password
[03:28] <jelkner> one of our edubuntu servers has stopped serving clients
[03:28] <jelkner> mount: Mounting /dev on /root/dev failded: No such file or directory
[03:28] <jelkner> Target filessystem doesn't have /sbin/init
[03:29] <jelkner> oh, before that
[03:29] <jelkner> mount: Mounting /root/dev on /dev/.static/dev failed: No such file or directory
[03:30] <jelkner> anyone here know what this means?
[03:34] <Yagisan> jelkner: is that on the client or server ?
[03:34] <jelkner> the client
[03:34] <jelkner> i'm talking to you know from the server
[03:34] <jelkner> so that seems to be working ok
[03:35] <jelkner> but clients won't boot
[03:35] <jelkner> s/know/now ;-)
[03:37] <Yagisan> jelkner: have you tried to reboot the clients ?
[03:37] <jelkner> Yagisan: yes, serveral times
[03:37] <jelkner> i also restarted the server
[03:37] <jelkner> the server comes back up fine
[03:38] <jelkner> but the clients are not booting
[03:38] <jelkner> this is in a public library
[03:38] <jelkner> the librarian called me and told me it has been like this all day (yesterday)
[03:38] <ogra> jelkner, check if the nfs server is running ...
[03:39] <ogra> i suppose that breezy ?
[03:39] <jelkner> yes
[03:39] <ogra> *thats
[03:39] <jelkner> i tried:
[03:39] <jelkner> /etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server restart
[03:40] <ogra> ps ax|grep nfs 
[03:40] <ogra> that should give you some lines
[03:40] <ogra> then check /etc/exports
[03:40] <jelkner> ps ax|grep nfs
[03:40] <jelkner> oops, wrong terminal ;-)
[03:40] <ogra> additionally make sure there is no other dhcp running anywher
[03:40] <ogra> e
[03:41] <jelkner>  ps ax|grep nfs
[03:41] <jelkner>  9503 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9504 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9505 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9506 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9507 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9508 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9509 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <jelkner>  9510 ?        S      0:00 [nfsd] 
[03:41] <ogra> stop pasting please
[03:41] <jelkner> ok
[03:41] <ogra> if you need to paste use a pastebot 
[03:41] <ogra> s/bot/bin
[03:41] <jelkner> what is a pastebot?
[03:41] <Yagisan> jelkner: pastebin
[03:42] <ogra> pastebin.ubuntulinux.nl for example ...
[03:42] <ogra> so look at /etc/exports 
[03:42] <Yagisan> or http://pastebin.com/ eg
[03:42] <ogra> it should have a line pointing to /opt/ltsp
[03:43] <jelkner> yes
[03:43] <ogra> ok
[03:44] <jelkner> pastebin.ubuntulinux.nl doesn't seem to be there
[03:44] <jelkner> but pastebin.com is
[03:44] <ogra> then check if the client shows the right "rootserver:" ip on boot ...
[03:44] <ogra> should be the server ip...
[03:45] <Yagisan> jelkner: did anything on the network change at all ? anyone adjust the ebubuntu server, put in a new dhcp server ?
[03:45] <jelkner> no
[03:45] <jelkner> not that i know of
[03:45] <jelkner> i'm not here most of the time
[03:45] <ogra> note that these little internet routers often come with a dhcp server enabled
[03:46] <jelkner> but the librarian wouldn't do that
[03:46] <jelkner> ahh
[03:46] <ogra> so if someone resetted the router or replaced it, it could be that there is one running
[03:46] <jelkner> but the root server seems correct
[03:46] <jelkner> Running /scripts/nfs-premount is ok, too, i think
[03:47] <jelkner> but then nfs: server 192.168.0.254 not responding, timed out
[03:47] <ogra> so its definately a nfs or a network problem ...
[03:47] <ogra> the ip is correct i suppose
[03:47] <jelkner> yes
[03:48] <ogra> this looks very much like #19196, but if you say it doent boot on second attempt it must be something else ...
[03:48] <ogra> *doesnt
[03:49] <jelkner> i tried 5 times
[03:49] <jelkner> same symptom each time
[03:49] <ogra> in any case servers dont just stop working, someone must have changed something to cause this
[03:52] <jelkner> any suggestions on how to diagnose?
[03:52] <ogra> find out what was changed ...
[03:53] <jelkner> how?
[03:53] <ogra> ask ... ?
[03:53] <Yagisan> jelkner: ask
[03:54] <jelkner> the librarian doesn't know
[03:54] <ogra> if you didnt, someone else must have changed something ...
[03:54] <Yagisan> someone has obviously changed something
[03:54] <jelkner> people come in all day and use these machines
[03:54] <Yagisan> kids ? network staff ?
[03:54] <jelkner> kids and patrons, it's a library
[03:54] <Yagisan> is there any *new* equipment ?
[03:54] <ogra> cleaning personal ...
[03:54] <jelkner> no
[03:54] <jelkner> could be
[03:55] <jelkner> but all i have to work with now is me and the machines
[03:55] <ogra> unplugged the router to put the vaccum cleaner in ... after they replugged, the router reset itself ...
[03:55] <jelkner> do you think it is the wireless router?
[03:55] <jelkner> let me try that
[03:55] <ogra> no idea 
[03:56] <ogra> but you need to take the whole into account, not only you and the machines ;)
[03:56] <Yagisan> often new/replacement routers are dropped in straight from the box with dhcp enabled eg for home users. You don't want that for a library
[03:56] <Yagisan> does the libary offer wireless access for patrons ?
[03:56] <jelkner> not yet
[03:57] <jelkner> this whole thing came about because the local friends of the library group (of which i am a member) donated the equipment
[03:57] <jelkner> for two edubuntu workstations
[03:58] <jelkner> and a linksys rounter with wireless
[03:58] <Yagisan> I'd check to see if the routers where replaced/rebooted, make sure no new devices are on the network, and that no one has joined multiple networks with some cable
[03:58] <jelkner> ok, doing that now...
[03:58] <Yagisan> causing other dhcp servers to answer the requests
[04:03] <jelkner> ok, i need to break the network connect and reset the router so i can log into it
[04:03] <jelkner> thanks all!
[04:19] <jsgotangco> hiya JaneW 
[04:19] <jsgotangco> or JaneW 's computer rather
[04:48] <signifer123> does it matter what permissions libraries have?
[04:48] <signifer123> soz
[04:49] <AFDSf> hey
[04:49] <signifer123> hello.
[04:50] <AFDSf> mmm was browsing the edubuntu site, and saw a link for the irc chat. I'm a teacher in china, edubuntu looks really good
[04:50] <ogra> :)
[04:51] <signifer123> ^^
[04:51] <AFDSf> thing is...
[04:52] <AFDSf> of all the ubuntu versions (kubuntu, ubuntu + edubuntu) this is the one that was benefit most from having a live cd
[04:52] <ogra> thats why we'll have one with the next release ;)
[04:52] <AFDSf> that's really good to hear
[04:53] <signifer123> cool...
[04:53] <signifer123> will it be one cd or like 4 cd's or 1 dvd?
[04:53] <ogra> feel free to test the daily build of the development version http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/
[04:53] <AFDSf> every classroom we have computers with crappy win*ows, if I can just go along with a live cd of this..... oh my god HAPPY KIDS!
[04:54] <AFDSf> ok i'll take a look at it
[04:54] <ogra> yesterdays build should already be pretty usable ...
[04:54] <AFDSf> that's excellent
[04:54] <ogra> apart from regular breakage due to development
[04:55] <AFDSf> but even so april release date is only 1 month after term start
[04:55] <ogra> (noetwork interfaces have wrong naming, only english keaboard layout etc...)
[04:55] <jsgotangco> the livecd though is workstation mode not server
[04:55] <ogra> yes, it omits all the server bits
[04:56] <AFDSf> can i ask why would someone use the edubuntu for a server>? I mean aren't they better off with the ubuntu?
[04:56] <jsgotangco> but gives a good preview of the thin client for whatever its worth :)
[04:56] <jsgotangco> AFDSf, edubuntu is an LTSP server by default
[04:56] <ogra> AFDSf, edubuntu is a server distribution by default
[04:56] <AFDSf> wow
[04:56] <jsgotangco> yes :)
[04:56] <ogra> a thin client classrom server ... to use your old hardware as terminals ...
[04:57] <AFDSf> i really hate to be dumb, but i thought it was built for kids - why would they use a server? Also what is a ltsp server?
[04:57] <ogra> jsgotangco, i fixed the lsb issue, but the datacenter is moved around, so the binary doesnt show up yet 
[04:57] <jsgotangco> AFDSf, for clasroom labs
[04:57] <jsgotangco> ogra, ahhh so that explains why some services are erratic
[04:57] <ogra> ltsp == linux terminal server project ...
[04:58] <JaneW> hi jsgotangco I was here for a bit - just rebooting and blogging etc
[04:58] <jsgotangco> wow JaneW blogs
[04:58] <JaneW> taking the kids for a walk, since I have been neglecting them today as I am a bit sick
[04:58] <jsgotangco> nice
[04:58] <ogra> you have one powerful server and a bunch of diskless clients (i.e. resembled old PCs without disks) that work as terminals
[04:58] <Yagisan> AFDSf: the teacher installs it on a server. The kids all use pcs/thin clients attached to the server
[04:59] <AFDSf> wow that's really technical
[04:59] <JaneW> jsgotangco: just about my life and such, no real work stuff like you guys ;)
[04:59] <jsgotangco> AFDSf, but you can still enjoy edubuntu as a workstation for kids :)
[04:59] <AFDSf> is it possible to use it, say in my situation. Just take a live cd into class and let them use the apps?
[04:59] <jsgotangco> AFDSf, yes
[05:00] <AFDSf> hmmm
[05:00] <jsgotangco> the livecd has no server stuff
[05:00] <ogra> AFDSf, it enables schools in poor countries to give every kid a pc workplace at school without spending a lot of money
[05:00] <AFDSf> can i ask what the advantage with having a server setup is?
[05:00] <Yagisan> AFDSf: actually its more like - insert cd -> next -> next -> next -> next -> next -> reboot -> edit 1 file. turn on kids computers
[05:00] <AFDSf> oh...
[05:00] <ogra> and you only have to manage the stuff on the server ... its very low maintenance work 
[05:00] <jsgotangco> JaneW, gimme the url if possible :)
[05:01] <AFDSf> but what does the server actually provide>?
[05:01] <jsgotangco> whoa edubuntu marketing team in full force
[05:01] <Yagisan> AFDSf: in a nutshell, everything
[05:01] <ogra> imagine the terminals like additional keyboard mice and diaplays connected to a single machine
[05:01] <AFDSf> i can imagine this, but what is the advantage>?
[05:02] <ogra> you can manage and maintain everything in one place 
[05:02] <Yagisan> AFDSf: low cost, low maintaince. If a pc breaks it takes 60 seconds to replace it with another working one
[05:02] <ogra> instead of maintaining say 20 copmputers in a class you only care for one ;)
[05:02] <jsgotangco> yep
[05:02] <jsgotangco> and your old machines come back to life
[05:02] <jsgotangco> (as long as its in a network)
[05:02] <ogra> if you install a new app, you only have to do it once for everyone
[05:03] <AFDSf> so what is actually installed on the workstations?
[05:03] <Yagisan> AFDSf: nothing
[05:03] <Yagisan> you can take their hard disks out
[05:03] <jsgotangco> none
[05:03] <jsgotangco> just a network card
[05:03] <AFDSf> but surely they need something to tell them to look for a server?
[05:03] <AFDSf> network boot?
[05:03] <ogra> yes, the network card ...
[05:03] <signifer123> yep
[05:03] <ogra> yup
[05:03] <jsgotangco> the network card should be able to boot from a network
[05:03] <Yagisan> either a network bootable card, boot floppy or boot cd
[05:04] <Yagisan> I wrote a howto on the edubuntu wiki
[05:04] <AFDSf> a boot cd can make them look for the server?
[05:04] <ogra> a very good one ;)
[05:04] <ogra> yup
[05:04] <AFDSf> ah i see
[05:04] <Yagisan> thanks ogra
[05:04] <AFDSf> how long does it take for a workstation to load up from the server on a 100mps lan?
[05:04] <ogra> Yagisan, i even often use it in #ltsp for ubuntu users :)
[05:05] <ogra> AFDSf, the 5.10 version takse about 90sec for a standard PC  ... the 6.04 will be ~10-50sec
[05:05] <Yagisan> ogra: nice :) Should have stuck a link in it to my website - try and get a few paying customers, so I can write more good documentation
[05:05] <ogra> yeah 
[05:05] <signifer123> whoag thats faster than i thoguht it would be for cat5 cable...
[05:06] <AFDSf> i mean i boot ubuntu on my laptop from the harddrive and it takes maybe a couple of minutes... i'm guessing a flashy edubuntu will take 5 mins
[05:06] <signifer123> edubuntu isn't that mcu hbigger than ubuntu
[05:06] <ogra> that really depends on the hardware 
[05:06] <Yagisan> AFDSf: no, takes about as long as a normal ubuntu boot
[05:06] <AFDSf> but it's gonna be over lan
[05:06] <ogra> Yagisan, not anymore ;)
[05:06] <AFDSf> lan is much slower than harddrive
[05:06] <ogra> Yagisan, usong my amd64 laptop as thin client i can boot in <15sec 
[05:07] <AFDSf> jesus that's amazing
[05:07] <AFDSf> i'm gonna try out this server setup on a vm
[05:07] <ogra> (in dapper with the tweakage thats not completely in the package yet)
[05:07] <Yagisan> AFDSf: as a ltsp user - I can assure you it boots quick.
[05:07] <AFDSf> not that i could ever use it
[05:07] <AFDSf> just interested
[05:07] <AFDSf> so what is ltsp again?
[05:08] <ogra> linux terminal server project 
[05:08] <AFDSf> ah
[05:08] <ogra> you can read about it on ltsp.org
[05:08] <AFDSf> for me almost meaningless
[05:08] <AFDSf> ok
[05:08] <AFDSf>  cool 
[05:09] <Yagisan> AFDSf: have you heard of citrix for windows ?
[05:09] <AFDSf> well i'm really looking forward to seeing the final versions of these live cds
[05:09] <jsgotangco> edubuntu's ltsp is cutting edge
[05:09] <AFDSf> i'm dloading the preview right now
[05:09] <AFDSf> no i haven't
[05:09] <jsgotangco> its so good i love to bleed
[05:09] <AFDSf> ok
[05:09] <AFDSf> 1 more q
[05:09] <Yagisan> AFDSf: oh, well it's citrix done right
[05:09] <ogra> note that its still in development until april, so dont expect it to work 100% flawless :)
[05:10] <ogra> (the liveCd that is)
[05:10] <AFDSf> is it dead easy to setup the server, i mean for the average school teacher?
[05:10] <Yagisan> that means it still works better then Windows out of the box
[05:10] <AFDSf> yes no worries, i'd like to see what it's like though
[05:10] <ogra> AFDSf, you need to edit one textfile 
[05:10] <ogra> (to set it up)
[05:10] <AFDSf> edit one file
[05:10] <AFDSf> hehehehehe
[05:10] <ogra> yup
[05:10] <AFDSf> that can't be too hard
[05:11] <AFDSf> wow, can we make ubuntu like this too?
[05:11] <ogra> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuInstallNotes has all info a teacher needs to set it up
[05:11] <AFDSf> alright i;m going there
[05:11] <ogra> ubuntu has ltsp on the Cd, its a bit more work to install it manually there, but not much
[05:12] <Yagisan> ogra: it's on the cd now ? I needed net access last time
[05:12] <ogra> edubuntu just does 4 of five needed steps for you ...
[05:12] <ogra> Yagisan, it was in the ship seed in breezy, so it should be on the CD
[05:12] <AFDSf> so what can i do if i install ltsp on ubuntu?
[05:13] <AFDSf> (actually i prefer kubuntu)
[05:14] <ogra> to do it manually, follow the ThinClientHowto from the wiki ...
[05:15] <AFDSf> hmmm
[05:15] <AFDSf> a little confused with ltsp, thin client etc
[05:15] <AFDSf> not to worry, i'm gonna check this stuff out
[05:16] <AFDSf> even if it doesn't quite work in my setup i wanna say that it's a fantastic project!
[05:16] <AFDSf> thanks for all the tips guys
[05:16] <ogra> in short: sudo apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone openssh-server && sudo ltsp-build-client && sudo gedit /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf && sudo /etc/init.d/dhcp3-server restart
[05:16] <ogra> thast all you need
[05:16] <ogra> no matter if kubuntu or ubuntu
[05:17] <AFDSf> btw if someone feels like hacking my system feel free, i;m running as root at the moment 
[05:17] <ogra> heh
[05:17] <AFDSf> i don't care
[05:17] <AFDSf> this is a vm anyway
[05:17] <AFDSf> i got a snapshot to save the day
[05:18] <Yagisan> AFDSf:  please don't temp me
[05:18] <AFDSf> show me how it's done!
[05:18] <AFDSf> hey one other thing
[05:19] <AFDSf> is it recommend to install a firewall in ubuntu?
[05:20] <ogra> no need to
[05:20] <AFDSf> even if i run ssh server?
[05:20] <ogra> there are no apps that open any ports to the outside world ...
[05:20] <ogra> then you open port 22 
[05:21] <AFDSf> i have a friend in russia, he often logs in via ssh to help me
[05:21] <AFDSf> yeah i can do it
[05:21] <AFDSf> but i got no firewall, do i need one if i have port 22 open?
[05:21] <Yagisan> I'd suggest using a firewall myself
[05:21] <AFDSf> mmm
[05:21] <AFDSf> apt-get install ???
[05:21] <ogra> since ubuntu has no root user and attacks on ssh assume there is one, that should be pretty safe
[05:22] <AFDSf> ah i disable root login too
[05:22] <ogra> an attacker would have to guess the name of the adimn user first
[05:22] <AFDSf> only one user can login via ssh
[05:22] <Yagisan> ogra: people like me have multi-gig dictionaries
[05:22] <ogra> every user can, but there is only the admin user who could do harm using sudo
[05:23] <AFDSf> how can a firewall guard against someone guessing passwords>?
[05:24] <Yagisan> AFDSf: well, it can stealth you pc from script kiddies
[05:24] <AFDSf> what would they use to hack my ssh... would they use Guess-Who?
[05:25] <ogra> in a default ubuntu they had to guess twice ...
[05:25] <ogra> the user name and the matching password ...
[05:26] <AFDSf> mm ok
[05:26] <AFDSf> is firestarter the firewall i need? I have no idea about firewalls in linux
[05:27] <ogra> imho its useless to have a firewall on a default ubuntu system ... (i know Yagisan will disagree)
[05:28] <AFDSf> yeah i understand this, but i have port 22 open
[05:28] <AFDSf> for ssh
[05:28] <ogra> yes, but you know that ... 
[05:28] <AFDSf> still don't need firewall?
[05:28] <ogra> and what would you gain through a firewall ... 
[05:28] <ogra> yu *want* port 22 open apparently to log in through it ...
[05:29] <ogra> if you close it through a firewall you cant log in ...
[05:29] <AFDSf> Yagisan I'd suggest using a firewall myse
[05:29] <AFDSf> yagisan said, so i just follow advice and ask what firewall i need to look at
[05:30] <AFDSf> maybe a firewall can protect the computer from port scans
[05:30] <ogra> but you only have one open port ;)
[05:30] <ogra> and you want this one open if you want to be able to log in
[05:30] <Yagisan> ogra: yes, but we are both talking about an stock ubuntu desktop. I will apply the defense in depth, even though I know it makes little difference on most desktops
[05:31] <jsgotangco> on my server, i'm only worried more on sql injections
[05:31] <AFDSf> and if a run a webserver on port 80 and ssh on 22 i still don't need a firewall>?
[05:31] <Yagisan> ogra: I rather the casual troublemaker not even notice the system is there
[05:31] <jsgotangco> and that's more into program design rather than server config :)
[05:31] <ogra> AFDSf, what would you do with a firewall for port 80 ?
[05:32] <ogra> if you lock it down, nobody will see your websites :)
[05:32] <Yagisan> he doesn't have a website their, I already checked
[05:32] <AFDSf> so Yagisan what is a firewall program? I mean i guess i do "apt-get install....."
[05:32] <Yagisan> AFDSf: BTW only 49 days uptime
[05:33] <ogra> firewall program is already a wrong term made up by some silly marketing guys ...
[05:33] <ogra> in fact its a port blocker 
[05:33] <Yagisan> AFDSf: ubuntu has a built in firewall. it is called iptables.
[05:33] <ogra> a firewall is a standalone machine that secures a LAN from a WAN
[05:33] <Yagisan> ogra: the name is more descriptive when you compare it to a firewall in the firefighting sense
[05:34] <AFDSf> yeah but then why does anyone ever use a firewall? I use a firewall underwindows even if i run a webserver, just make sure requests are forwrded to the server. The firewall protects the server from port scans so dickheads don't even see i have open ports and hence don't attempt a hack
[05:34] <Yagisan> it's a zone that the fire can't cross to cause more damage
[05:35] <Yagisan> AFDSf: you didn't describe a firewall under windows.
[05:35] <ogra> AFDSf, windows has *many* open ports you should block
[05:35] <ogra> thats why it makes sense to use a portblocker in windows
[05:35] <Yagisan> AFDSf: a firewall works more like a traffic cop, deciding who may enter and who may not
[05:36] <AFDSf> i'm aware of this, but even if it didn't and only 80 was open for webserver i'd still use a firewall
[05:36] <Yagisan> AFDSf: as someone that gets payed to do this as a living
[05:36] <ogra> Yagisan, if you have a brick wall with no doors behind the firewall, whats the usecase for the firewall (to come back to your firefighter example)
[05:37] <Yagisan> the only advantage to you is that you may hide the system from inexperienced trouble makers
[05:37] <AFDSf> a firewall sees when a single ip attempts to open multiple ports and promtly blocks the ip. Thus even a server listening on port 80 can't be discovered. The firewall won't block a single request to port 80 from a client and so the server remains useful. So I'm wondering what firewall i can setup on ubuntu?
[05:37] <Yagisan> ogra: is the brick wall heritage listed ? ;)
[05:38] <Yagisan> AFDSf: that is not a firewall
[05:38] <AFDSf> what is it?
[05:38] <Yagisan> that is a basic intrusion detection system
[05:38] <AFDSf> oh hmm
[05:38] <Yagisan> one that will get many false possitives
[05:38] <AFDSf> what's the equivalent on ubuntu?
[05:38] <ogra> AFDSf, firestarter is probably the best you can use if you want an easy gui ... but still there is no real use for it imho :)
[05:39] <AFDSf> ah ok
[05:39] <Yagisan> probably portsentry if we have it
[05:39] <AFDSf> so let me ask in what situation would I even need any of these?
[05:39] <Yagisan> you have multiple pcs
[05:39] <AFDSf> multiple pcs doing what?
[05:40] <ogra> to secure a whole network from the world ...
[05:40] <Yagisan> and from the users
[05:40] <AFDSf> so even i run a server system don't need this software?
[05:40] <ogra> you have 10 pcs in a company ... so you would put a firewall (as in firewall machine) in place so nobody can get in from the internet ...
[05:41] <AFDSf> just let the ports be open to all and sundry?
[05:41] <AFDSf> ok i see when used as a nat
[05:41] <Yagisan> AFDSf: ports *are not open* by default in ubuntu systems
[05:41] <AFDSf> yeah i already got told this
[05:41] <ogra> for protecting your network from the inside, i think a good rights management is more effective than having firewalls on all pcs
[05:41] <AFDSf> i just asked if i;'m running shh and webserver in ubuntu do i need a firewall?
[05:41] <Yagisan> ogra: I prefer a well designed network to complement that
[05:42] <AFDSf> i know you just checked my system i have neither running at the moment, yesterday i did, and later i hope to
[05:42] <ogra> thats why i'm only a developer and you are a security guy ;)
[05:43] <Yagisan> ogra: yes, but between the two of us, we can make a secure, functional network
[05:43] <ogra> heh, yes
[05:43] <AFDSf> so an ubuntu server does not need firewall or intrusion detection?
[05:44] <Yagisan> AFDSf: if you have *no* other services running, and implemented good access control, then yes you can get away with no firewall
[05:44] <ogra> intrusion detection might make sense ... but i dont run a portblocker on my servers ...
[05:44] <AFDSf> intrusion detection is firestarter?
[05:44] <Yagisan> ogra: intrusion detection works best on both sides of a firewall system, to see what leaks through
[05:45] <Yagisan> AFDSf: what sort - network or system ?
[05:45] <ogra> yip
[05:45] <AFDSf> alright
[05:45] <Yagisan> AFDSf: two main types of IDS
[05:45] <AFDSf> i try this, makes me feel a little safer
[05:45] <AFDSf> mmm
[05:45] <AFDSf> what are they?
[05:46] <Yagisan> one designed to check the network, the other to check a single system
[05:46] <Yagisan> eg snort is the 880 pound gorilla of network intrusion detection systems
[05:46] <AFDSf> snort
[05:47] <Yagisan> while aide is a good host intrusion detection system
[05:48] <Yagisan> AFDSf: my www server
[05:49] <Yagisan> I have a firewall on it - I filter certain types of traffic. I have a host intrusion detection system, and it is locked down pretty tightly
[05:52] <AFDSf> hmm well
[05:52] <AFDSf> i'm just gonna start up a server with no firewall etc and see how long it lasts on the www
[05:52] <AFDSf> be interesting to see
[05:53] <Yagisan> you'll probably get your first script kiddie attacks withing 24hrs
[05:54] <AFDSf> what must i install to preven this?
[05:54] <Yagisan> AFDSf: you last reboot your system christmas eve ?
[05:54] <Yagisan> AFDSf: you can't
[05:54] <Yagisan> AFDSf: if they can connect to your www server, they will attack it
[05:54] <AFDSf> yeah
[05:54] <Yagisan> I get them all the time
[05:54] <AFDSf> so they attaxk every server on the web?
[05:55] <Yagisan> yes
[05:55] <AFDSf> what is it that stops them?:
[05:55] <AFDSf> i mean what can u do to make it so difficult the go to find an easier tartget elsewhere?
[05:55] <AFDSf> THEY GO TO FIND
[05:55] <Yagisan> 1) run ubuntu
[05:56] <AFDSf> 2)?
[05:56] <AFDSf> cross my fingers? :D
[05:56] <Yagisan> 2) keep your system up to date.
[05:56] <AFDSf> ok is there number 3?
[05:56] <Yagisan> 3) test your system regularly yourself, or hire someone to do it
[05:57] <AFDSf> ok easy with auditor security
[05:57] <Yagisan> I'd recommend myself
[05:57] <AFDSf> 4 ?
[05:57] <jsgotangco> lol
[05:57] <AFDSf> m
[05:57] <AFDSf> is there a 4?
[05:58] <Yagisan> no essential things that I've missed
[05:58] <AFDSf> mm cool
[05:58] <Yagisan> 4) only run what is needed and nothing more
[05:58] <AFDSf> fine, tomorrow i will get a server setup then you can try and do your best to screw it in the ass
[05:59] <Yagisan> 5) run that with the lowest privileges needed to get the job done.
[05:59] <jsgotangco> Yagisan, what about those that run their services in an external third party, ie, colo, hosting, etc.?
[05:59] <jsgotangco> what should they be concerned about? its mostly httpd services running
[05:59] <AFDSf> ah! my edubuntu cd is downloaded let me go and check it out. Thanks for all the advice peeps, I found this really enlightening. Cheers.
[06:00] <Yagisan> jsgotangco: I've yet to find a colo that passed my security test :( ever wonder why I self-host on an ubuntu box ?
[06:00] <jsgotangco> well colo are notorious
[06:00] <jsgotangco> i had one colo and it was always a disaster
[06:00] <AFDSf> see you around soon
[06:00] <jsgotangco> but how about those dedicated hosts
[06:00] <Yagisan> no worries mate
[06:01] <Yagisan> jsgotangco: if you have root/admin/supervisor - harden it like it is you box
[06:01] <jsgotangco> add IDS even?
[06:02] <Yagisan> jsgotangco: main thing to rememember is to audit the cgi scripts. most www servers are compromised via cgi script errors
[06:02] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[06:02] <Yagisan> a host-based one is a good idea - and keep good backups
[06:03] <Yagisan> I have more shameless promotion of myself at http://www.eyagiconsulting.com
[06:04] <Yagisan> although I should add more content, incl tutorials
[06:04] <Yagisan> anyway I should drag myself into bed. 4am now
[06:05] <jsgotangco> me too
[06:05] <jsgotangco> 1am
[06:05] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:05] <jsgotangco> cheers
[06:07] <Yagisan> night all. btw jsgotangco if your serious about that contracting thing, email me
[06:07] <jsgotangco> yep
[06:07] <C-O-L-T> does exist a kind of bitcomet program for linux?
[06:08] <jsgotangco> Yagisan, yep..i have some stuff in spirit connect, i might just
[08:11] <signifer123> Good Day, Again...
[08:11] <signifer123> Snowing here...
[08:12] <mhz> dead hot here
[08:32] <signifer123> where are you?
[08:32] <signifer123> south america?
[09:14] <mhz> signifer123: yeah, Chile
[09:14] <mhz> 3x C
[10:15] <signifer123> so next release is april right?
[10:15] <mhz> april 20th if no Murphy's around
[10:17] <signifer123> k
[10:17] <signifer123> frozen already?
[10:19] <mhz> nope
[10:19] <mhz> soon to be
[10:20] <signifer123> :_p
[10:21] <signifer123> have a whats new for it yet?
[11:01] <yvesC> ogra, a question gcompris related
[11:02] <yvesC> I suppose we are too late for 7.3 in drapper?
[11:02] <ogra> yvesC, i could try, but i doubt i get approval
[11:03] <yvesC> It's because we have a anoying bug in 7.2. Could a 7.2.2 be approval, just for this bug ?
[11:03] <mhz> gcompris is KEY in edubuntu selling points
[11:03] <ogra> (dapper will be supported for 3 years, its unlikely to get a new upstream in this late)
[11:04] <ogra> 7.2.2 should be no problem
[11:04] <ogra> i also noted a crasher that i didnt have time to track yet ... is that related ?
[11:04] <yvesC> Bug#351978: gcompris: administration mode do not work in debian BTS.
[11:05] <ogra> oki, thats enough to push it through i think
[11:05] <yvesC> Ok, we do the 7.2.2 tonight.
[11:05] <mhz> does 'push through' mean 'try to include it' ?
[11:05] <ogra> great ...
[11:05] <yvesC> Where did you had a crash ?
[11:06] <ogra> it seems to crash after some time ... unrelated to the action ...
[11:06] <ogra> but crahsers are fine to track after the freeze still 
[11:07] <yvesC> strange. 
[11:07] <ogra> currently i'm under heavy pressure to get the last features into ltsp before 23rd
[11:07] <ogra> i'll track bugs afterwards ...
[11:07] <bdoin> hi ogra
[11:07] <ogra> hi bdoin 
[11:07] <yvesC> bdoin, ogra just said 7.2.2 will be ok for drapper, but 7.3 is too late.
[11:08] <ogra> likely ... i'll have to talk to matt ...
[11:08] <ogra> probably he'll even approve 7.3 ... i wont catch him before monday though
[11:08] <bdoin> so you want me to do a 7.2.2, I just made a 7.2.1 yesterday and have to make a 7.3RC1 today. 
[11:08] <yvesC> I said we do a 7.2.2 tonight, in fact, bdoin you must do a 7.2.2 tonight.
[11:08] <yvesC> 7.2.1 is not fully corrected. 
[11:08] <mhz> oh, yes, it means "try to include it"
[11:09] <ogra> as i said, i wont get him before monday, so you guys have time ... 
[11:09] <ogra> dont get in a hurry everything with 7.2 in front will be easy to get in ...
[11:10] <ogra> 7.3 will need some begging and a good reason :)
[11:10] <ogra> (and a small diff would help as well)
[11:11] <bdoin> ok
[11:12] <bdoin> can I provide only a diff
[11:12] <ogra> no, a 7.2.2 is fine, i mean the diff between versions ...
[11:12] <ogra> the smaller this is, the easier i'll get it in
[11:13] <ogra> i supposed 7.2 -> 7.3 will be bigger than 7.2 -> 7.2.2
[11:14] <yvesC> Yes. 7.2 -> 73 has new activities, new images files for them, change in almost all our xml menu files.
[11:14] <ogra> yes, thats what i suspected ...
[11:14] <yvesC> 7.2 -> 7.2.2 is 20 lines, or something like that.
[11:14] <ogra> thast fine, i can almost guarantee that i can get a 20 line change in
[11:16] <yvesC> If i change breezy to drapper in my sources.list, i will get the actual drapper with the crash in gcompris ?
[11:17] <ogra> yup
[11:17] <ogra> but you'll likely need to upgrade everything ...
[11:18] <ogra> might be caused by something else, it doesnt need to be gcompris itself ...
[11:18] <yvesC> if my computer works again after that, i am ok. I want check this crash cause.
[11:18] <ogra> ok
[11:19] <ogra> i'll check myself latest after 23rd ...
[11:19] <yvesC> Thank's
[11:20] <Lord_Athur> :O
[11:20] <Lord_Athur> there are problems with the ubuntu page
[11:20] <ogra> nope
[11:20] <ogra> announced last week ...
[11:21] <ogra> everything apart from releases.u.c and archive.u.c is down ...
[11:21] <ogra> maintenance work ...
[11:21] <Lord_Athur> ogra I can't enter to the edubuntu page....
[11:21] <ogra> yes
[11:21] <ogra> read what i wrote
[11:21] <Lord_Athur> wait
[11:22] <Lord_Athur> sorry :P
[11:22] <ogra> :)
[11:22] <ogra> its a planned outage for mainteance ...
[11:22] <ogra> will last 90min to 6h ...
[11:23] <Lord_Athur> thanks fot the information ogra 
[11:26] <Lord_Athur> :O I wanted to download the edubunyu iso :P
[11:26] <Lord_Athur> :O I wanted to download the edubuntu iso :P
[11:27] <ogra> oh, sad ... :(
[11:27] <Lord_Athur> jajaja
[11:27] <ogra> the released versions are available ...
[11:27] <Lord_Athur> now?
[11:27] <ogra> but not the server with the dailies ...
[11:27] <ogra> yup
[11:27] <ogra> release.ubuntu.com should be there 
[11:27] <Lord_Athur> ok
[11:28] <Lord_Athur> I will see it
[11:28] <ogra> its redirected to sweden
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> :O
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> ogra, 
[11:29] <yvesC> FYI, screenshot of new menu in next 7.4 (or 8) are here, with others activities: http://fynl.free.fr/dotclear/index.php?2006/01/31/106-quelques-nouvelles-de-gcompris-7-3-et-7-4
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> the page you said is not there
[11:29] <Lord_Athur> the release.ubuntu.com address 
[11:30] <ogra> yvesC, cool !
[11:31] <ogra> Lord_Athur, releases, not release
[11:31] <Lord_Athur> :O
[11:31] <Lord_Athur> i only pasted what you told me
[11:31] <ogra> sorry
[11:32] <ogra> anyway, its slow ... just trying to get it here
[11:32] <Lord_Athur> yes
[11:32] <Lord_Athur> this is there
[11:33] <ogra> http://archive.ubuntu.com/mirror/cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/
[11:33] <ogra> thats faster ;)
[11:34] <Lord_Athur> ok thanks again
[11:38] <Lord_Athur> ogra, there are only DVDs of breezy (i want a breezy cd image)
[11:39] <ogra> http://archive.ubuntu.com/mirror/ubuntu-releases/edubuntu/breezy/
[11:39] <ogra> try that one then :)
[11:41] <Lord_Athur> that is the right
[11:42] <yvesC> Can someone give the drapper's line for the sources.list, please ?  I got  an error
[11:42] <Lord_Athur> :O
[11:42] <ogra> just replace breezy with dapper everywhere
[11:42] <Lord_Athur> ogra, the page is not fine
[11:42] <ogra> and run apt-get update
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> i could not download it
[11:43] <ogra> Lord_Athur, whats wrong ? 
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> but don't worry, i will try after
[11:43] <yvesC> Couldn't stat source package list http://archive.ubuntu.com drapper/main Packages 
[11:43] <Lord_Athur> the download does not start
[11:43] <ogra> it doe shere
[11:44] <ogra> yvesC, did you run sudo apt-get update ? 
[11:44] <ogra> (works fine here)
[11:47] <ogra> yvesC, drapper is wrong, its called dapper :)
[11:47] <yvesC> sorry, my fault. it's not drapper, but dapper.
[11:48] <yvesC> thanks
[11:48] <ogra> :)
[11:48] <lucasvo> yvesC: it's dapper dRake, not dRapper dake
[11:48] <ogra> heh