[01:31] <dhalgren> hi. i have been subscribed to the mailing list for a few days, trying to see if there is anything I can help with, but I am still not certain. I am not a hacker, but have been using linux for about 5 years, ubuntu since just before christmas.
[01:33] <dhalgren> ah, clearly u r not here at all
[01:33] <dhalgren> therefore, neither am i.
[01:33] <dhalgren> i might try again later. we shall see.
[01:33] <dhalgren> goodbye
[01:59] <Snake__> Hey can someone help me out with svn
[02:00] <Snake__> please
[02:00] <theCore> yea, me
[02:01] <theCore> what do you want to know?
[02:01] <Snake__> theCore: I type svn update in the dir, and it tells me 
[02:01] <Snake__> snake@Laptop:~/Projects/kubuntuguide/kubuntuguide$ svn up
[02:01] <Snake__> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/repos/trunk'
[02:01] <Snake__> svn: PROPFIND of '/repos/trunk': 405 Method Not Allowed (https://docteam.ubuntu.com)
[02:01] <Madpilot> the docteam svn repo seems to be down with the rest of the servers
[02:01] <Snake__> Oh
[02:01] <Snake__> :(
[02:02] <Snake__> Madpilot: should I?
[02:02] <Madpilot> were you current before the repo went down?
[02:02] <Snake__> No, according to my mail box a number of patchs went in
[02:03] <Madpilot> probably wait, then - maybe just do the work in a seperate file, then merge locally before you produce the diff?
[02:03] <Snake__> Thats what I ment, if were to work on one now, and I did the diff, would it affect it?
[02:04] <Madpilot> I'm not sure, but it could 
[02:04] <Snake__> Hmmm ill just write it, then when I Check out ill just toss it in where it belongs
[02:18] <LaserJock_away> I would think if the changes in the commits you missed were on different docs then it wouldn't matter
[03:01] <glick> hello
[03:05] <kbrooks> well!
[03:05] <kbrooks> I'd ;like to talk the talk
[03:05] <glick> ubuntu documentation pretty much sucks
[03:05] <glick> ya'll know that right?
[03:05] <kbrooks> Can any of you guess what Ubuntu doesnt have?
[03:06] <kbrooks> MORE DOCUMENTATION
[03:06] <glick> decent documentation
[03:06] <glick> kbrooks, i was just talkin about that in #ubuntu
[03:06] <glick> we need an official documentation project
[03:06] <kbrooks> whart do you mean, decen? show me indecent documentation
[03:06] <glick> the ubuntu documentation project
[03:06] <glick> kbrooks, our documentation cant be spread out over numberous wikis n stuff
[03:06] <glick> our documentation should be on par with SuSE's documentation
[03:07] <kbrooks> glick, so they have to be centralized?
[03:07] <glick> SuSE's documentation is the best docs i have ever seen
[03:07] <kbrooks> well, should be
[03:07] <glick> kbrooks, yeah i think so
[03:07] <glick> the docs should be centralized
[03:07] <glick> for consistancy and quality control
[03:07] <kbrooks> somehow.
[03:07] <LaserJock> wow, what are you guys talking about, we have a documentation team and your in their IRC channel
[03:07] <kbrooks> LaserJock, project not team
[03:07] <glick> LaserJock, but the docs still suck
[03:08] <kbrooks> project != team
[03:08] <glick> reletively speaking
[03:08] <kbrooks> glick, show me a example of sucky documentation
[03:08] <glick> the documentation is not thorough, nor user friendly, and ubuntu is sposed to be the linux for the poeple
[03:08] <LaserJock> but if you want to improve it help out
[03:09] <glick> LaserJock, i want to, but i think we should a specific project devoted to it, there shouldnt be seperate docs for ubuntu/kubuntu
[03:09] <glick> there should be user guide
[03:09] <glick> administrator guide
[03:09] <glick> and developers guide
[03:09] <LaserJock> we are working on those
[03:09] <kbrooks> glick, duplication of woek?
[03:09] <kbrooks> LaserJock, no, DUPLICATION
[03:09] <glick> kbrooks, the model suse uses
[03:09] <LaserJock> and Kubuntu and Ubuntu are different projects so they need different docs
[03:09] <kbrooks> that needs to be addressed 
[03:09] <LaserJock> we have generic docs too
[03:09] <glick> LaserJock, no they dont, their different desktops
[03:09] <LaserJock> no
[03:10] <kbrooks> LaserJock, stop it
[03:10] <LaserJock> they are different iso's
[03:10] <kbrooks> glick, stop  it
[03:10] <LaserJock> they have different metapackages
[03:10] <glick> kbrooks, whatchu talkin about? stop what?
[03:10] <kbrooks> lets get to terms here
[03:10] <glick> kbrooks, i had trouble finding info on how to build a basic ubuntu package from source code
[03:10] <glick> i had to go to the debian guide
[03:10] <glick> and had to change several things to make it work right in ubuntu
[03:11] <glick> thas not good documentation
[03:11] <kbrooks> glick: so thats indecent...
[03:11] <LaserJock> glick: I'm working on the Ubuntu Packaging Guide but it is still in an alpha stage
[03:11] <kbrooks> LaserJock, LOOK
[03:11] <Madpilot> glick: just got back here - but your point about Ubuntu docs being spread over wiki/doc.u.c/elsewhere is a known issue, and is going to be addressed, probably post-Dapper
[03:11] <kbrooks> lets get to terms here
[03:11] <glick> i just think we should follow suse, we need documentation that can be used read by both the newbie and the expert as a reference
[03:12] <kbrooks> glick: yeah
[03:12] <kbrooks> Madpilot, scroll above
[03:12] <Madpilot> glick: got a URL for the SuSE docs, please?
[03:12] <LaserJock> I believe that SuSe has people paid to write documentation and is a much older project
[03:12] <glick> http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation
[03:13] <glick> check out the 9.3 administration guide
[03:13] <glick> and the user guide
[03:13] <Madpilot> thanks
[03:13] <LaserJock> glick: your very welcome to write some documentation if you want
[03:13] <glick> LaserJock, i want to
[03:13] <kbrooks> glick: whats good there?
[03:13] <kbrooks> glick: me too
[03:15] <glick> why should have a wiki that people can add too and edit
[03:15] <glick> and with every release we release an official documentation release
[03:15] <Madpilot> glick: "we should" or "why should we"?
[03:15] <glick> we should
[03:15] <LaserJock> we do
[03:15] <Madpilot> um, we've got one... wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:15] <Madpilot> it's even back up now...
[03:16] <glick> Madpilot, i know and thas cool
[03:16] <glick> but with every release we should have an official documentation release
[03:16] <LaserJock> we do
[03:16] <Madpilot> we've got that too, glick...
[03:16] <Madpilot> System menu --> Help...
[03:17] <kbrooks> glick: be exhaustive
[03:17] <LaserJock> and help.ubuntu.com has the released docs too
[03:17] <kbrooks> the team needs more informatopm
[03:17] <kbrooks> information*
[03:17] <glick> what im suggesting is that we create exhaustive and centralized documentation like on suse
[03:17] <glick> like how do i set up firewall on ubuntu
[03:18] <glick> that should be a chapter
[03:18] <glick> or basic sh usage
[03:18] <kbrooks> glick: subchapter
[03:18] <kbrooks> ;)
[03:18] <glick> right
[03:18] <Madpilot> glick: plans are afoot to get the wiki under tighter control, and integrate it more with the regular docs
[03:18] <glick> how do i set up and configure a basic webserver
[03:18] <Madpilot> glick: get the current svn setup, there's a whole new serverguide for Dapper
[03:19] <glick> i mean the documentation exists, but its not centralized, i just think ubuntu would be even more adopted if for instance you could download a giant pdf "the ubuntu bible" book or something along those lines
[03:19] <Madpilot> glick: are you on the docteam mailing list?
[03:19] <glick> Madpilot, not yet
[03:19] <glick> how do i get on that?
[03:20] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact <-- glick
[03:20] <glick> is it daily digest or do i get a million emails a day
[03:20] <LaserJock> guys, we have a svn repo witht the doc team repo that holds the docs that are seen at doc.ubuntu.com
[03:20] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository <-- the SVN docteam repo
[03:20] <Madpilot> glick: you can get digest, but it's not usually a busy list without it
[03:22] <Madpilot> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits <-- you might also want to subscribe to this, it's an automated list of what's been committed to the docteam SVN repo
[03:23] <kbrooks> subbbbbbbbbbscribbbbbbbed!
[03:24] <LaserJock> the docs are automatically installed on K/Ubuntu so it is there, but we currently don't do .pdf's
[03:24] <LaserJock> we use help.ubuntu.com instead
[03:24] <Madpilot> we probably could - there's probably a DocBook2pdf creator...
[03:26] <LaserJock> we just use a different stylesheet, I think. xsltproc will output .pdf
[03:27] <glick> id like to contribute to the developer guide
[03:27] <glick> like how to set up cvs, compilers, compiler toos, package building, etc
[03:28] <Madpilot> glick: go for it - drop a note to the ML and ask what needs doing
[03:28] <LaserJock> glick: well, I'm working on the Ubuntu Packaging Guide. it can be found at doc.ubuntu.com
[03:29] <LaserJock> but I'm more focused on packaging then a general developer guide at this time
[03:30] <glick> ill have to start after midterms next week
[03:30] <crimsun> we should discourage using cvs for fresh, singly homed projects
[03:31] <glick> crimsun, why is that?
[03:31] <glick> its been working out fine for me
[03:31] <LaserJock> glick: just get a checkout of the docteam svn repo and send diffs to the ubuntu-doc mailing list
[03:31] <crimsun> glick: for fresh, singly homed projects, there are (imo) better solutions
[03:32] <crimsun> bzr and svn to say the least
[03:32] <glick> oh that may be
[03:33] <glick> is there such a thing as pdf 2 docbook or something like that?
[03:33] <LaserJock> umm, openoffice can save as xml
[03:33] <glick> yeah but if i have a pdf how can i edit it?
[03:35] <glick> damn never believe a word weather people tell you
[03:35] <LaserJock> hmm, not sure. I can't think of anything right of hand. That is actually why we do everything in docbook from the beginning
[03:35] <glick> cancelled a date for nothing
[03:35] <glick> grrr
[03:35] <LaserJock> bummer
[03:36] <glick> ive only used docbook once
[03:36] <crimsun> what? You have a hot date with #ubuntu-doc, that's sufficient.
[03:36] <LaserJock> lol
[03:36] <glick> hehe gawd 
[03:37] <Madpilot> glick: docbook is messy, but you can pick it up from the stuff that's already been written
[03:38] <glick> why docbook? why not xml ?
[03:38] <glick> isnt xml more standard?
[03:38] <LaserJock> it is xml
[03:38] <Madpilot> it's DocBook XML
[03:38] <glick> does OO.o have a docbook mode or something, any good docbook editors?
[03:39] <LaserJock> emacs/vim/gedit/bluefish seem to be common
[03:39] <LaserJock> but OO.o can save as xml but it tends to be kinda messy. 
[03:40] <Madpilot> I use Bluefish, but gedit does OK too
[03:40] <LaserJock> I do most of my editing from a terminal so I usually use emacs or vim
[03:41] <LaserJock> pretty much anything with syntax highlighting of XMl works for me ;-)
[03:57] <LaserJock> the SUSE documentation is very nice
[03:57] <crimsun> always has been
[04:00] <LaserJock> unfortunately, Ubuntu didn't inherit such nice looking docs ;-)
[04:01] <glick> heh tole ya
[04:01] <LaserJock> I find the Debian docs to be pretty dry
[04:01] <Madpilot> hmm... this is uncool, though - if you start on the front page of the SuSE stuff and follow all the "New Users click here" links, then the "What software do I get with SuSE" link, you get this not-very-newbie-friendly page:http://en.opensuse.org/Product_Highlights  
[04:04] <Madpilot> ... the basic install of SuSE require FIVE CDs? That's nuts - I hadn't realized how spoiled we are by Ubuntu...
[04:07] <LaserJock> Madpilot: oh yeah, that is one of the reasons (of many) that I moved to Ubuntu. All the distros were moving to DVDs etc.
[04:07] <glick> well not everyone has highspeed connections
[04:11] <LaserJock> yeah, although now I just download the iso's at the university and use vmware-player
[04:11] <kbrooks> Madpilot, 
[04:11] <kbrooks>  only CD 1 needed for a minimal text installation (English)
[04:12] <kbrooks> nuts. totally.
[04:12] <kbrooks> LaserJock, what are these reasons?
[04:12] <Madpilot> does "text installation" mean no-GUI, command line only?
[04:12] <LaserJock> kbrooks: which reasons? for moving to Ubuntu?
[04:13] <kbrooks> Madpilot, ambiguity there, i agree
[04:13] <kbrooks> LaserJock, Yeah.
[04:13] <LaserJock> Madpilot: probably curses or something, like when it doesn't play well with your graphics card
[04:14] <Madpilot> what on earth do they install that takes up that much space?
[04:14] <kbrooks> Madpilot, Too much.
[04:14] <LaserJock> kbrooks: well, I really started using Linux with Gentoo but the compile time was eating into my productive time so I searched for a binary distro that was equivalent to Gentoo
[04:14] <LaserJock> Madpilot: it would be like if we sent Universe too
[04:15] <kbrooks> LaserJock, to where?
[04:15] <kbrooks> LaserJock, cd? yeah,  too huge
[04:15] <LaserJock> kbrooks: I went to Fedora (not very long) and then SuSe, and then Ubuntu
[04:15] <kbrooks> LaserJock, dvd? not bad, but still huge
[04:16] <kbrooks> LaserJock, no: "if we sent universe"
[04:16] <LaserJock> yeah, basically if you get the SuSE dvd it has everything that SuSE has to offer
[04:16] <kbrooks> LaserJock, what iss your opinion on fedora? 
[04:17] <Madpilot> kbrooks: sent the Universe repos out as ISOs - to get as many CDs worth of stuff as SuSE
[04:17] <LaserJock> kbrooks: it was always much slower for me than other distros, but I appreciate all the work they did for the linux community
[04:17] <kbrooks> Madpilot, we shouldnt do that. the repos would be ... out of date way too fast
[04:18] <kbrooks> Madpilot, like when you supply alpha software on a CD
[04:18] <Madpilot> kbrooks: yeah, I know - but I was wondering what SuSE ships that requires so many CDs - see a few lines up...
[04:18] <kbrooks> you don't want to DO THAT
[04:18] <LaserJock> kbrooks: what I'm saying is that if we sent out all the repos on ISO it would be the size of SUSE (well much bigger actually)
[04:19] <LaserJock> but we don't do that because Ubuntu/Canonical doesn't support Universe offically
[04:19] <kbrooks> why should it?/
[04:19] <LaserJock> well that is basically what the other distros are doing, SUSE for instance
[04:20] <LaserJock> I'm not saying it should
[04:20] <Madpilot> kbrooks: manpower, basically
[04:20] <kbrooks> Madpilot, and time. not enough of that. clock is ticking
[04:21] <kbrooks> see debian for a example of what not to do
[04:21] <LaserJock> but the nice thing about SUSE is that if you do get the DVD you don't need an internet connection to have all the software at your disposal. It's a tradeoff and I think that Ubuntu has done a good job in that department
[04:21] <LaserJock> kbrooks: well debian is great for certain things
[04:22] <kbrooks> LaserJock, but bad for others
[04:23] <LaserJock> sure, but then so is Ubuntu, but I think Ubuntu has had the best balance of the main distros I've tried
[04:24] <kbrooks> whats that balance?
[04:25] <LaserJock> between having all the software on cd and none of the software on cd
[04:25] <LaserJock> Ubuntu comes with a core that is well supported on 1 cd
[04:25] <kbrooks> LaserJock, btw
[04:25] <LaserJock> and then if the use wants to go beyond that it is very simple for them to do that
[04:26] <kbrooks> LaserJock,have you seen any of the curses screens ...
[04:26] <kbrooks> that appear after your first reboot
[04:26] <LaserJock> kbrooks: on what?
[04:26] <kbrooks> into ubuntu
[04:26] <LaserJock> I suppose
[04:26] <kbrooks> they sound user friendly, but not enough oomph into that
[04:27] <kbrooks> no cryptic package names in there please!
[04:27] <kbrooks> the user cares about them after install, but not right now
[04:28] <LaserJock> well, I think Dapper might get a revamped installer, but really the Debian installer is nice. Not as slick as SuSE or Fedora but it gets the job done.
[04:28] <kbrooks> X is a memory hog.
[04:28] <LaserJock> but the user does care that progress is being made
[04:28] <LaserJock> and one of the easiest ways to show progress is by showing what packages are being installed
[04:29] <kbrooks> well, i suppose you're right. at least there is no ...
[04:29] <LaserJock> and if the installer crashes or something bad like that then they have an easy indicator of where it went bad
[04:29] <kbrooks> hmm, obscuring 
[04:30] <LaserJock> but I agree that we could use a flashy installer, I think it would be nice to have both with an option at the boot
[04:30] <LaserJock> most of the time I would still use the non-graphical one but to show friends it would be nice to have something fancy
[04:31] <LaserJock> but really people don't (shouldn't) spend much time installing and more time using so ...
[04:31] <crimsun> I'm opposed to shiny things
[04:31] <crimsun> a text-based installer Just Makes Sense. Granted, I'm probably in the minority.
[04:32] <Madpilot> People don't spend all that much time installing - it should be easy but it doesn't have to be fancy, IMO...
[04:35] <LaserJock> well, I think it is good to have both, if possible
[04:35] <kbrooks> X is a memory hog though
[04:36] <LaserJock> kbrooks: why do you keep saying that?
[04:38] <kbrooks> to me, GUI = X
[04:38] <Madpilot> kbrooks: curses = a GUI of sorts, w/o X
[04:38] <kbrooks> thats TUI
[04:39] <kbrooks> what "flashy installer" are you talking about
[04:40] <crimsun> LaserJock: shall I push doc diffs to you or to the ml?
[04:41] <LaserJock> crimsun: for the packaging guide you can email me directly mantha AT ubuntu.com
[04:42] <crimsun> gotcha.
[04:42] <LaserJock> for other stuff it is best to mail the list
[04:42] <LaserJock> but I'm the only one with svn access that works on the packaging guide
[04:44] <crimsun> is that a11y-friendly? ;)
[04:44] <LaserJock> kbrooks: well, that is why I think it would be nice to have a choice at the beginning, GUI or non-GUI. I would probably use the GUI most of the time but sometimes it is nice to have a non-GUI installer (weird hardware or something like that)
[04:46] <LaserJock> mpt: smell based wouldn't work so well for me. I'm a chemist so my nose is shot ;-)
[04:48] <LaserJock> crimsun: do you have any diffs presently?
[04:49] <crimsun> LaserJock: no, but you'll have some in the morning
[04:50] <crimsun> having to do diffing on remote boxes due to lack of HD space slows things down
[04:51] <LaserJock> well, I do almost all my stuff from remote boxes now, my Ubuntu box got turned into an Intel iMac this week
[04:52] <LaserJock> thanks for looking at the packaging guide, btw. you know a whole lot more about the subject than I do
[04:59] <LaserJock> crimsun: did you already do editing? if so, what sections? or did you do everything :-)
[05:10] <LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
[05:10] <robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
[05:10] <robotgeek> LaserJock: could you commit the patch set i mailed in yesterday?
[05:14] <LaserJock> robotgeek: I would but I think it might be better for jjesse to do it. I'm not sure why your other patches weren't applied. Maybe he has a plan.
[05:15] <robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, i dunno. he hasn't mentioned anything to me yet. but i am referring to the new set I sent in yesterday
[05:15] <robotgeek> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-February/005134.html
[05:16] <robotgeek> which doesn't touch anything outside the kubuntu desktop guide
[05:16] <robotgeek> i'm applying for membership
[05:18] <robotgeek> so that i can commit stuff. it's getting very tedious trying to coordinate with 4 ppl, with me acting as the intermediatary svn
[05:38] <LaserJock> robotgeek: I don't feel comfortable comitting your patches right now. They are quite large and mdke suggested I leave the Kubuntu patches to jjesse. Sorry
[05:38] <robotgeek> LaserJock: sure, no problem
[05:39] <robotgeek> i'll try to catch hold of him, heh
[05:40] <robotgeek> LaserJock: they are large because they involve patches from 4 people, and i put them together
[05:45] <LaserJock> robotgeek: I totally understand, I was doing a similar thing for the pacakging guide before I got svn access
[06:17] <LaserJock> hi theCore 
[06:17] <theCore> hello LaserJock 
[06:18] <Snake__> LaserJock...hmm thats a sweet name
[06:18] <Snake__> lol
[06:18] <LaserJock> really? that's what the laser companies call us
[06:18] <LaserJock> I even have a cool LaserJock sticker at work ;-)
[06:19] <Snake__> lol
[06:19] <Snake__> LaserJock: whats your job?
[06:19] <LaserJock> I'm a PhD student in Physical Chemistry. I shoot lasers at things ;-)
[06:19] <Snake__> LaserJock: like...ones that hurt you or what?
[06:19] <Snake__> lol
[06:20] <robotgeek> haha, /me would like a robotgeek sticker
[06:20] <Madpilot> LaserJock: so can you arrange sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads? :P
[06:20] <Snake__> (do they have those?)
[06:20] <LaserJock> yeah, burn holes through things
[06:20] <robotgeek> Madpilot: +1
[06:20] <LaserJock> Madpilot: I could but I'd have to talk to the Biology department about getting the sharks ;-)
[06:20] <Snake__> lol
[06:20] <Snake__> Experiment ;)
[06:21] <robotgeek> LaserJock: isn't that what a Phd is all about? fun! 
[06:21] <LaserJock> the problem is that the laser probably wouldn't go very far in the water
[06:21] <robotgeek> then maybe you can hold the world at ransom for gazillion dollars!
[06:21] <Madpilot> anyone know if ToddLambert has ever appeared on IRC? He's going thru the wiki like mad, doing nice work too...
[06:22] <robotgeek> Madpilot: yeah, i'm subscribed to that page too:)
[06:22] <Snake__> I never seen/herd of him
[06:22] <robotgeek> i've seen him on the forums, but never on irc
[06:22] <LaserJock> robotgeek: no it's about doing the same thing every day until you get enough data to fool people into thinking I know what I'm doing
[06:22] <Snake__> haha
[06:22] <Snake__> LaserJock: where can I get one of those lasers?
[06:23] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i'll jot that down in my "advise from Phd dudes" section
[06:23] <LaserJock> ebay
[06:23] <Snake__> LaserJock: are you joking
[06:23] <LaserJock> no
[06:23] <Snake__> what would I search
[06:23] <LaserJock> you can buy quite a bit of stuff on ebay
[06:24] <LaserJock> lasers?
[06:24] <Snake__> Meh all I get is the toy ones :(
[06:24] <Snake__> I one that burns stuff
[06:24] <Snake__> lol
[06:24] <Snake__> i want*
[06:24] <LaserJock> but the kind I use are about $250,000 USD
[06:24] <Snake__> thats what im lookin for
[06:24] <Snake__> :)
[06:25] <LaserJock> Snake__: what you really want is an CO2 laser, they cut metal with those
[06:26] <LaserJock> I usually don't work in the infra red so I don't burn much. I usually us UV so you could get some serious tans (aka skin cancer) :-)
[06:27] <Snake__> hehe
[06:28] <Snake__> Hmmm :( I cant find any devent ones
[06:28] <Snake__> actually
[06:28] <LaserJock> but you can sure blow the retina off the back of your eye with the kind I use
[06:28] <Snake__> I dont even really know what im lookin for
[06:29] <LaserJock> well, the most dangerous part of a laser is actually the power supply
[06:29] <LaserJock> we have 60,000V capacitors in the power supply. discharge one of those and your toast
[06:30] <Snake__> ha nice
[06:31] <Snake__> LaserJock: get me the model of one that can burn through a door will ya? tommorow or something
[06:31] <theCore> gosh, 60000V capacitors !
[06:31] <LaserJock> but most of the time it is very mundane work
[06:32] <theCore> I remember playing with 2V one, and I could solder metals parts with their sparks
[06:33] <LaserJock> Snake__: something like http://www.accesslaserco.com/Spec%20Lasy20P.pdf would probably work ;-) but they are very expensive
[06:34] <Snake__> ill check it out :)
[06:35] <LaserJock> I think the kind that would cut through metal probably start at $100,000 USD
[06:36] <LaserJock> but you can actually do quite a bit with lasers that are in laser pointers, I can run a lot of my experiments using them
[06:36] <theCore> LaserJock, I saw $3,000 USD lasers cutting metal
[06:36] <Snake__> LaserJock: like what
[06:36] <LaserJock> theCore: really? I suppose. I'm used to cutting stations that include much more than just the lasers
[06:37] <theCore> Snake__, cool line, and curve art!
[06:37] <Snake__> theCore: with laser pointers??
[06:38] <theCore> Snake__, yes , with a couple of rotating mirrors
[06:38] <Snake__> I see....
[06:39] <LaserJock> Snake__: my project involves looking at very very tiny motor molecules on a piece of glass. I don't need a lot of power
[06:39] <Snake__> Oh :(
[06:39] <Snake__> I want something that will go through a door :-D
[06:39] <theCore> Snake__, you are evil ;)
[06:39] <LaserJock> but you really need to be careful. I wouldn't get anything that could go through a door. You could case some serious damage
[06:40] <LaserJock> laser pointers are scary enough
[06:40] <theCore> like slicing a man in half  :P
[06:40] <Snake__> Hehe
[06:40] <LaserJock> no, but watching your eye explode doesn't sound very nice to me :(
[06:41] <LaserJock> this year there was a prof that did that
[06:41] <Snake__> owch
[06:41] <Snake__> I still want one
[06:41] <Snake__> lol
[06:41] <theCore> oO
[06:41] <theCore> ads ?
[06:42] <LaserJock> the problem with a laser is they often different places than you think. They can bounce off of all kinds of thing. If you turn off the lights in my lab you can literally seem laser beams all over the place
[06:43] <theCore> so, glasses are important there 
[06:44] <LaserJock> yes, except then you can't see where the beams are
[06:44] <LaserJock> so most of the time it is better for us to block most of the beams and be able to see the rest
[06:44] <robotgeek> thinks*
[06:44] <LaserJock> yes, but if your trying to work on something that is invisible ...
[06:44] <Snake__> so do I need all that if I juts want to go out back and shoot some holes in a door?
[06:45] <Snake__> :D
[06:45] <LaserJock> Snake__: basically, don't do that. It would be quite expensive and very dangerous
[06:45] <LaserJock> if you are really interested, find a university with a laser lab and see if you can visit
[06:45] <Snake__> LaserJock: Yea im aware of that, but I figure I could get most of my money back if I sold the laser to a university or something
[06:45] <Snake__> Hmmm
[06:46] <Snake__> Thats a good idea
[06:46] <Snake__> But I wanna have fun with it, not be bound by all kinds of stuff
[06:46] <robotgeek> Snake__: yoou need to get  a Phd then
[06:46] <LaserJock> but most of the bounds are really there for a reason
[06:46] <Snake__> (Yes im the kind of person that "has fun" with guns
[06:48] <LaserJock> anyway, lasers are really quite a bit more boring than they are made out to be in the movies
[06:48] <LaserJock> they are great tools, but the are really not that much "fun"
[06:48] <theCore> the fun with lasers isn't cutting doors, (that's fun for 2 min) I think, it's finding new uses for them
[06:49] <LaserJock> Snake__: but honestly it would just make a hole, it doesn't blow up or anything
[06:49] <Snake__> LaserJock: But then I can like...draw and stuff with it right?
[06:50] <LaserJock> maybe but it probably is more fun with a .22 
[06:50] <Snake__> LaserJock: like....I can draw with the laser and stuff right?
[06:50] <Snake__> lol
[06:51] <Snake__> draw in the door
[06:51] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm not going to talk about it anymore as it is waaay off topic and just noise here
[06:52] <LaserJock> robotgeek: working on drawing on doors with a lase? ;-)
[06:52] <theCore> LaserJock, I saw you commited my diff :)
[06:53] <LaserJock> theCore: yes
[06:53] <robotgeek> LaserJock: no, motion control to laser cut stuff
[06:53] <LaserJock> robotgeek: ah, cool. medical?
[06:53] <theCore> I will rewrite some parts of the `make' explainations, I'm happy with it
[06:54] <robotgeek> LaserJock: no, some weird not to be applied soon mems stuff
[06:54] <theCore> I'm not *
[06:55] <LaserJock> robotgeek: ah, mems. I went to a ASME mems conference here in Reno last year. really cool stuff
[06:55] <robotgeek> LaserJock: yes,the possibilities of what you can do with that stuff is fascinating
[06:56] <LaserJock> there is a group here that is working on cantilever systems that are really awesome. I saw one of their chips with 10.000 cantilever sensors all electronically addressed
[06:57] <robotgeek> most of my research group has moved on from robotics to mems
[06:58] <robotgeek> we also have a strong materials science program, (whose research was posted on slashdot), which makes it very cool
[06:58] <LaserJock> yeah, I kinda see mems as the robotics of the future to some extent
[06:58] <Madpilot> what're mems? (for those of us who don't play with lasers all day...)
[06:58] <robotgeek> more robotics research is done in cse than in mech, i realised a bit too late. and i like the cse part
[06:59] <robotgeek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMS
[07:00] <LaserJock> well, I like working in the nano world so those mems are huge to me :-)
[07:00] <robotgeek> heh, trie
[07:00] <robotgeek> true, another research group here is working on some skin type stuff
[07:04] <LaserJock> I like workin on the atomic/molecular level. I guess that is why I'm a chemist
[07:05] <robotgeek> i'm still learning a lot of stuff, about a lot of things. 
[07:06] <robotgeek> i would love to stay in school forever, but i cant :(
[07:08] <LaserJock> me too, except I'm starting to get tired of it (8 years straight, not a summer off)
[07:09] <robotgeek> wow
[07:09] <LaserJock> I think it will be good to get out and start making some real money and doing my own work
[07:09] <Madpilot> LaserJock: phd?
[07:09] <robotgeek> i am definetly taking some time off towards that end
[07:09] <Snake__> phd and your not making real money??
[07:09] <LaserJock> not if I teach, I'll be doing good if I make 40k a year after I'm done with my PhD
[07:10] <LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, about a year from now I should be done
[07:10] <robotgeek> LaserJock: only 40K?
[07:11] <LaserJock> robotgeek: yeah, I would like to teach at a smallish university
[07:11] <LaserJock> eventually I could do ok, but the going rate is ~ 40k for fresh PhDs I think
[07:11] <robotgeek> hmm, i misunderstood. i tht for in non-acadameia
[07:11] <LaserJock> for industry I could start at 90K
[07:12] <LaserJock> and at a government lab I could do ~ 70k
[07:12] <robotgeek> make some money, then go back to teaching
[07:12] <LaserJock> but I like the academic world and the research freedom
[07:12] <robotgeek> that's my plan, atleast. 
[07:13] <Snake__> Ooo children of bodom
[07:13] <LaserJock> I've heard that it is often pretty hard to take the pay cut after being in industry, but my undergrad chemistry prof did that
[07:14] <robotgeek> yeah, my cousin's wife did that too, but she's happy that she did
[07:15] <LaserJock> but if my wife gets a job then I'm sure we will do ok ;-)
[07:17] <robotgeek> :)
[07:18] <theCore> ah, the famous academic syndrom, the more you study, the more it become though to quit the school
[07:19] <theCore> being served, and to serve, is a quite different thing ... 
[07:20] <LaserJock> theCore: actually, there seems to be somewhat of a critical mass for me. At some point you figure out that you can't learn everything and you need to be productive. oh, yeah and being broke also helps with the syndrome ;-)
[07:20] <theCore> and with the specialization, the situation won't improve ...
[07:20] <theCore> yep
[07:21] <robotgeek> being broke definetly helps!
[07:22] <theCore> the fear of lost, is definitely stronger than the hope of gain ...
[07:22] <LaserJock> I am amazed with how unemployable you become the farther you go
[07:23] <LaserJock> the more specialized you get the fewer potential employers you have
[07:23] <theCore> employers don't have enough money for paying a multi-Phd graduate
[07:24] <crimsun> that's why you have to get your employer to pay for a multiple Ph.D.s :)
[07:24] <crimsun> s/for a/for/
[07:24] <robotgeek> heh, that's a good solution
[07:24] <cfk> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html  says "or chat with the community on Freenode IRC Channel: #ubuntu" - i think that should be a link that fires up the default chat cilent - where do I post sugestions like this?
[07:25] <LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if that would work?
[07:25] <crimsun> xchat* is installed by default, so it should
[07:25] <crimsun> irc://chat.freenode.net/ubuntu
[07:25] <robotgeek> crimsun: does firefox come out of the box to handle irc protocol?
[07:26] <crimsun> it should be handled by xchat {or gaim}
[07:26] <LaserJock> I don't remember firefox ever doing that
[07:27] <Madpilot> there's an IRC plugin for FF, isn't there?
[07:27] <crimsun> mozilla's chatzilla would handle it, but firefox doesn't
[07:28] <LaserJock> I think that would be the problem then
[07:28] <cfk> i just put irc://chat.freenode.net/ubuntu in FF's address textbox - it 1/2 worked - xchat ran but didn't connect
[07:29] <LaserJock> well, you have to set up xchat (nick, etc.)  so it wouldn't be all that automatic
[07:30] <cfk> the first time you run xchat it asks for nick - thats the only other thing it needs
[07:31] <cfk> and that defaults to OS username and full name, so its just a click away 
[07:31] <LaserJock> yeah, it would be good to have
[07:32] <theCore> ok, I'm off
[07:32] <theCore> cya later
[07:58] <CarlFK> so should I post this irc:// thing to somewhere like launchpad?
[07:58] <LaserJock> you could send an email the the ubuntu-doc mailing list
[07:59] <CarlFK> im guessing I would need to subscribe ?
[08:01] <LaserJock> hmm, I guess. I could send an email if you would rather not.
[08:02] <CarlFK> I just subscribed
[08:02] <LaserJock> cool
[08:02] <CarlFK> but thanks
[08:02] <LaserJock> np
[08:28] <CarlFK> LaserJock: can you post afterall?
[08:29] <CarlFK> i havn't gotten the "reply to subscibe" thing, and I am about to fall allseep 
[08:29] <LaserJock> CarlFK: fine, I'll just sent something quick
[08:29] <CarlFK> thanks
[08:35] <LaserJock> CarlFK: sent, good night
[08:37] <rob> woah, the licence page wigged out on me
[08:53] <rob> something funky is going on with bookinfo.xml, is anyone else getting a problem when building?
[08:53] <rob> the desktop guide btw
[09:01] <robotgeek> rob: ubuntu or kubuntu?
[09:01] <rob> ubuntu
[09:01] <robotgeek> hmm, i havent tried it yet, sorry
[09:02] <rob> for some reason its appending all the text in bookinfo.xml to the filename when running the mk script
[09:02] <robotgeek> hmm, weird
[09:03] <rob> yeah, not wrong
[09:04] <rob> ah, looks like it might be a problem with how an xref is set
[10:24] <mdke> whoosh, scrollback
[10:27] <mdke> rob, works fine here
[10:27] <mdke> what's the problem?
[10:32] <Madpilot> small patch for Ubuntu Desktop Guide sent to the list...
[10:33] <mdke> k
[10:35] <mdke> oh nice one
[10:36] <Madpilot> the Codecs section should look more like the rest of the guide now...
[10:36] <mdke> applied
[10:38] <Madpilot> thanks
[10:38] <mdke> wtf is seamonkey?
[10:38] <Madpilot> it's yet-another-Firefox-project, isn't it?
[10:38] <mdke> oh
[10:39] <mdke> well it's not in Ubuntu as default browser >_<
[10:41] <Madpilot> does someone think it should be?
[10:42] <mdke> not as far as I know
[10:42] <mdke> CarlFK, so does firefox open these irc:// links correctly in default dapper?
[10:44] <Madpilot> ah, I just saw jerome's email about seamonkey & IRC - now I know wtf you're talking about :P
[10:47] <Madpilot> chaining terminal commands is really quite cool - "cd ~ && cd ubuntu-doc && svn up" all on one line from any directory...
[10:48] <mdke> you dont' even need the ~
[10:48] <Madpilot> not really - just habit I got into when I first started w/ Linux
[10:49] <Madpilot> next I need to make that into a script & alias it to something like "usvn" in .bashrc...
[10:56] <Madpilot> there we go: in /.bashrc: alias usvn='cd && cd ubuntu-doc && svn up'
[10:57] <mdke> good plan
[10:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> ~/.bashrc ;)
[10:58] <Madpilot> I'm lazy, four keys + enter appeals to me

[11:00] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, I read your comment on the mailing list, I'm not sure about whether extended tables of contents are a good idea or not
[11:00] <mdke> the idea is for the sub-sections to be obvious enough that you know what's in them already
[11:01] <mdke> and some of those are so long, deeper tables of contents would look a bit ugly, I think
[11:01] <mdke> for example, see this: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch03.html
[11:01] <mdke> what do you think?
[11:02] <Madpilot> yikes...
[11:02] <mdke> funnily enough, I was planning to remove that stuff
[11:02] <mdke> but now I'm confused :)
[11:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: just looking
[11:03] <mdke> i _think_ the right approach is to ensure that the sub-sections are clearly enough named that its obvious what is in there, without deeper TOCs
[11:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: i don't mind it (maybe I'm strange), but what i was thinking is the sub part is on the page when you open it
[11:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> so you go to `Partitions and Booting`, then on that page is all the options
[11:06] <mdke> hmm
[11:07] <mdke> the qandaset used to do that automatically
[11:07] <mdke> i'll look into it
[11:08] <Madpilot> mdke: I thought we were yanking all the quandasets out?
[11:08] <Kamping_Kaiser> quandaset?
[11:08] <mdke> Madpilot, yes we are. I mean, in the previous guide, it did that
[11:08] <Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: part of the tag swamp XML is blessed with :P
[11:09] <mdke> where you have a qandaset, it makes a toc at the top
[11:09] <jsgotangco> wasssup
[11:09] <Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: ok.
[11:19] <mdke> Madpilot, so what are we going to do with the remaining miscellaneous tips? can you think of a way of including them in the other chapters?
[11:22] <jsgotangco> dinner brb
[11:22] <Madpilot> mdke: how about just a "Misc." section at the end of Common Tasks?
[11:22] <Madpilot> it doesn't really solve the problem, but at least it makes it stick out less...
[11:22] <mdke> yes, although some of the tips might fit better in config-system
[11:23] <mdke> oh, not really
[11:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> i just had a browse through the help and i noted "wireless help: write about wireless here", should i point that out here (to be written/hidden)? i don't have any wireless gear on my properly , so i cant help there
[11:24] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, i removed that recently. We can probably include some extra wireless information in the "Connecting to the internet" section though
[11:25] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: ok. i just svnd up, so i will have a look in there for interesting/not so interesting stuff :)
[11:25] <Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: are you looking at Breezy's help, or the svn version?
[11:25] <Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: it was dapper help, but i just updated svn
[11:25] <mdke> dapper's help
[11:25] <mdke> we haven't uploaded for a while
[11:27] <Madpilot> in the Config/Internet section, we should have a link to the Hardware/Modems-Winmodems section
[11:27] <Madpilot> sorry, Common Tasks/Internet
[11:27] <mdke> good idea
[11:28] <Madpilot> I'm still not up to speed on links in Docbook, so I'll let someone else make that change
[11:28] <mdke> ok i'll do it
[11:33] <Madpilot> the "Switch to Console mode" Misc. tip could be rolled into Getting Started/Linux Basics, mentioned as an alternative to starting gnome-terminal
[11:33] <mdke> done it, but yelp crashes continuously, so I can't test properly
[11:33] <Madpilot> Yelp in Dapper having issues?
[11:34] <mdke> yes
[11:35] <mdke> bbl
[11:42] <Madpilot> mdke: your Modems link in Common/Internet links to the top of Hardware, it doesn't (on Yelp in Breezy) go right to the Hardware/Modems section
[11:48] <Kamping_Kaiser> if i want to have a play with docbook in my svn repo do i have to create a new branch for my stuff? or can i do it in the main tree? what I'm wondering about is files getting deleted becasuse they are not part of the repo.
[11:53] <mdke> Madpilot, yes, not a lot can be done about that
[11:53] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, you can make patches and send them to the list. If you want to play around, svn won't remove any of your local changes
[11:54] <mdke> Madpilot, the alternative is to do a link like "read the modem section in the Hardware section" and link on "Hardware". Yelp doesn't handle the links to smaller sections :/
[11:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: thanks. I'll be playing for the forseable future, as dockbook looks... interetsing
[11:54] <Madpilot> mdke: ah, so you can't do internal links like HTML - too bad
[11:57] <mdke> Madpilot, yeah sucks. at least afaik it can't be done. We can investigate further tho
[11:57] <Madpilot> I need to actually learn DocBook, rather than just copying existing code & experimenting :P
[11:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe.
[11:58] <mdke> Madpilot, me too
[11:59] <Madpilot> anyway, I need sleep. How did it get to be 0300, anyway?
[11:59] <Madpilot> Later, all
[11:59] <mdke> night
[11:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
[12:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
[12:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> how can i forceably update a file i changed? and svn says the Kubuntu/serverguide isnt part of the repo - is that correct? or should it just learn to love it?
[12:06] <mdke> what do you mean by forcibly update?
[12:06] <mdke> remove your changes?
[12:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> yeh. basicly
[12:07] <mdke> to revert to the server's version of a file, do "svn revert filename"
[12:07] <mdke> that will cancel your changes
[12:07] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. thanks.
[03:17] <CarlFK> (3:40:52 AM) mdke: CarlFK, so does firefox open these irc:// links correctly in default dapper?
[03:17] <CarlFK> no
[03:20] <mdke> CarlFK, then there's not much point adding the link :/
[03:30] <CarlFK> FF launches xchat, so I'm guessing there is a bug in FF that needs to be fixed too
[03:31] <CarlFK> FF launches xchat, but doesn't connect to any servers
[03:36] <mdke> oh right
[03:36] <mdke> CarlFK, ok we can add it, and hope that the bug gets fixed
[03:37] <CarlFK> then i suppose I better file a bug report aganst FF ;)
[03:37] <mdke> yeah please do, I'll add the link now
[03:43] <CarlFK> done: https://launchpad.net/products/firefox/+bug/31226
[03:45] <mdke> thanks
[03:46] <mdke> I've added the link
[03:46] <CarlFK> thank you 
[03:47] <CarlFK> hope it gets working - hate not having a quick way to get to #ubuntu ;)
[03:47] <CarlFK> not to mention that it would be nice for beginners 
[04:11] <mdke> robotgeek, btw the ubuntu desktopguide has been changed drastically since you forked it over, just a heads up in case you want to revise the kubuntu guide accordingly
[04:12] <robotgeek> mdke: i saw that, will take a look
[04:12] <robotgeek> it's much easier to delete stuff than add stuff :)
[04:13] <mdke> the whole format has changed
[04:13] <mdke> instead of qandasets, it is in regular sect form, and lots of restructuring has occurred
[04:17] <robotgeek> ah, okay. i think i'll spend a whole day just doing that
[05:24] <CarlFK> did "d-i  preseed/early_command" change from breezy to dapper?  
[05:25] <CarlFK> whoops, this isn't #u
[10:37] <LaserJock> CarlFK: did you see the -doc emails about the irc link?
[10:37] <CarlFK> no  - still no subscription conf message
[10:38] <CarlFK> thats what I get for using a mail server on mandrake ; )
[10:39] <LaserJock> CarlFK: well, a link was added
[10:46] <CarlFK> "your subscription request may have to be first confirmed by... , or approved by the list moderator.
[10:46] <CarlFK> maybe that is the hold up
[10:46] <CarlFK> thanks for posting for me
[10:46] <mdke> weird
[10:46] <mdke> you should be able to confirm it yourself
[10:47] <CarlFK> "confirmed by you via email, or approved" - could be either - most I have seen are by e-mail 
[10:54] <CarlFK> tried again using my gmail account, already got "Mailing list subscription confirmation notice for mailing list ubuntu-doc"
[10:55] <CarlFK> curd... lauchpad didn't respect my CRs https://launchpad.net/products/partconf/+bug/31258
[10:56] <CarlFK> is there an option to make <pre> text stay pre?
[10:56] <mdke> in launchpad?
[10:56] <CarlFK> yes
[10:57] <CarlFK> im not seeing any options, so this is an easy one ;)
[10:57] <mdke> best ask in #launchpad
[11:00] <CarlFK> hmm, my mail server's top:  0.0% id, 94.7% wa,  load average: 3.69, 2.78, 2.04
[11:04] <mdke> ouch
[11:16] <mdke> around?
[11:18] <mpt> hi mdke, yes, I'll work on it this morning
[11:20] <mdke> mpt, awesome, although I was gonna hassle about something else
[11:21] <mdke> mpt, the desktop guide is starting to resemble something like a usable guide IMO, i'd love it if you'd check it out and give a bit of quick feedback. Maybe wait until a new upload is done early this week, and have a look if you have a spare few moments
[11:38] <mpt> mdke, ok, will it be on doc.ubuntu.com?
[11:53] <mdke> mpt, yes, and in dapper
[11:53] <mdke> thanks dude
[11:54] <mdke> ->bed